BiB Brothers in Boots Volume 5 detailed discussion on LASTS for boots
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- Опубликовано: 21 фев 2024
- Volume 5 of boot discussion with Mike & Jeff. This volume specifically is about LASTS used in boots, and everything about those lasts
#Leather #last #lasts #munson #barrie #jonesandvinning #cobbler #cobblers #spokane #boots #pnw #franks #franksboots #whites #nicks #nicksboots #handmade #mto #blacklabelsociety #BLS #seidel #horween #wickettandcraig #law #lawtannery #Galun #cfstead #maryum #shinki #temper #pnwboots #wesco #cxl #chrome #vibram #drsoles #dalesleatherworks 
Развлечения
Outstanding 🔥
🥂
Great chat, guys. I learn so much with each episode.
Awesome 👏🏼, greetings Manuel
Thank you Manuel 🥂
I really appreciate these videos. You guys do a great job pointing out the small unspoken differences between makers.
Extremely interesting to listen to this deep dive into boots. Enjoying the whole series.
Have one observation that the volume of Mike is a few steps lower than Jeff’s.
Trying to listen to this one in the car was a mistake haha, either Jeff's too loud or Mike's drowned out by road/wind noise
We had that provlem with the very first video. Thought we had fixed it. Working on it now
sorry man....we are working on it right now and I think we have it figured out
Man this is great boot geek content. Thanks for posting this. I’m only 1/3rd in but this is important info for the boot public.
Oh shit 5 videos in and I'm only just now realizing that this is Jeff from the fb groups. Thank you guys so much for doing these. When I first saw Mike on a Dale's leatherworks video I was blown away by the wealth of knowledge, I was hoping he'd write a blog or do a podcast or something. This is even better. Every question someone asks in a FB group just needs to be linked to these videos. Lol
A little troubled/confused by the dissing of the Nicks Thurman by bringing up the availability of wide widths. From what I understand, the Thurman should have the same or similar ball widths to their respective 55/HNW but have a wider toe box, which is different than just having a boot made in a wider width. Am I missing or misunderstanding something?
No that is exactly it its a last with no purpose but you get extra toe space but with AA, A, BB, B, C, D, E, EE, F, FF, FFF, FFFF, FFFFF widths all available there is no real reason for the super weird shape unless there is a foot deformity. Since all widths naturally add more volume and in PNW more foot bed space(some brands are just more volume same foot bed) the idea of super open toe on makes sense if the width is incorrect or you have a major toe issue that makes them just that much bigger than your ball measurement which normally it is not. Thus you are left with a very odd choice Thurman vs any other last with every width under the sun available and honestly not a great reason to choose the Thurman UNLESS there is a toe issue or deformity that the makers cannot fix with a small piece of leather in their normal process. Overall this is a Munson last and the HNW/55/1977,11067,4811 are all Munson based too which just leaves the toe shape which is one of the main differences in a lot of the PNW lasts available. Also oddly enough for as many nicks that are seen in the wild across all social media including their own the Thurman builds are just not shown and it makes me wonder how many they actually make compared to their other lasts.
Hopefully this helps clarify!
Toes don't go outward without serious foot issues. Such rare issues would be seen in a fit-sheet. Such issues would also be known by the person, and communicated by the person. So boots can be bumped out in that spot.
Like I said in the video....normal off the shelf boots this would make sense, and be something I would gravitate towards. But these boots, especially being based on the same last style, and with unlimited widths available, just doesn't make any sense.
A bit of constructive criticism; the guy on the left is much louder in the mix than the guy on the right. I have to ride my volume knob to adjust for this. A simple level adjustment in editing would go along way. You could also compress and put a limiter on the signal chain too if you wanted to get into fancy podcast territory. Hope this is helpful. I really enjoy the content though!
We got it adjusted for future videos. I'm still working on trying to get this video adjusted, but it is probably too late.
Thank you
Another great video thank you guys. 1 question, is i remember Mike saying in the video with Dale's leather work that the 67 last is originally meant for a moderate heel but in this one you seemed to contradict that saying a low heel would exaggerate the strong toe spring. Did i misunderstand that? I did go back and listen several times but totally admit to still learning some of these terms so had trouble following the heel height vs toe spring talk on specific lasts.
No you are right Nicks 11067 builds like the prospector use a shorter heel that does do this while the 1977 and 4811 use a standard heel height for higher arch boots. on MTO you can order it with a Classic or 55 sized heel to counter this. The low heel does exaggerate the toe spring and make you feel the arch more the same as if you did one of their MTOs and chose a HNW heel for the 55 last. The wording of moderate is from Nicks website as they used to have low(HNW), moderate(55), high(11067) but now you wont hee anymore reference to high. We use the terms low arch and high arch as the boots either get the arch support piece or they don't the rest of the feel is foot balance based on what you asked the question on heel height and toe spring.
Hopefully this helps!
Nick's confused a lot of people with that terminology
I'm sure you've covered this subject here and there in other videos but how about a detailed discussion on what to look for to determine if you've got a good fit?
This thing where the overall length doesn't matter as much as arch placement is very intriguing. All you ever hear is thumb's width at the front and firm handshake at the ball. I've even heard to look for the widest part of your ball corresponding with the widest part of the welt on each side, but from the sounds of it this arch placement thing seems to be the most important of all.
Moreover, what do you do if the arch is too far forward? Or too far rearward? Seems like common sense that sizing up will move the arch forward and sizing down will move the arch rearward?
We'll definitely think on whether we can make a full episode on that. 🤔
But to answer your question, there are some seperate thoughts going on with regards to wgat you wrote.
1st, is the arch, being more important than length. Which of course only applies to the very small number of makers that build an arch in. Which is mostly Spokane builders. There are ratio's and scales that occur in the human body. Some are more dependable than others. So what Mike said assumes typical proportions. But if someone's foot isn't proportionate you asked. It's really about someone having long toes or short toes here. Short toes, and the boot will overall be too long. That isn't really a problem. There are people that have been wearing normal no-arch boots 2 full sizes too big all their lives. They've done so because their feet are wide, so they had to buy boots too long to get the width they need. (I am one of those people) So there would be nothing to address for a short toe'd person assuming they don't trip themselves. Now conversely, if someone has long toes that is a problem, because the toes touch the front, which Mike did say is a problem. In that case leather piece ls would be attached to the last during building to make the boot longer. They can't give you are larger last because that would move the arch, but by attaching leather to the front of the boot they can make you a longer boot without moving the arch.
The other things come down to simpler measurements for figuring out width, which is independent from what we have talked about so far.
Plus there are other established additional measurements a builder can ask you to take if there are fitment issues. Or expected issues. Like if you know you have long toes that would be something you'd want to mention to the builder early on.
@@cloveroak5492 thanks for the response. I just wondered because I just got my first pair of Frank's and I frankly (lol) can't tell how much room is ahead of the big toe because the celastic prevents me from feeling it. I'd never considered arch placement before, just toe room and widest part of foot corresponding with widest part of boot. And all this is in reference to getting the length right, for the most part the width seems like an easy aspect to ascertain.
It's like, you get a new pair of boots, what steps should you follow to make sure they fit right? Yeah idk maybe you're right, might not be enough there for a whole episode. Maybe just a quick reference video that could be shared to guys posting in the groups about fit.
@@evsnova74 I don't know if this helps, but I've never "found my toe" by pushing down on a toe box. I mean....probably a child in sneakers, but never anything as an adult. I've always judged it by lifting my toe upward, maybe even kicking the top of the vamp with my big toe. Somehow I am always able to "feel" where it is at with my toe instead of my hand.
@@cloveroak5492 that does help and explains a lot. As bad as celastic is, how would anyone ever be able to feel with a safety toe? Thanks Jeff
Hey Jeff,, i'm wondering.., if you had to pick a favorite PNW brand.., who do you gravitate toward most...? I'm guessing you'll say Franks.. you both seem very fond of Frank's which really has me wanting to place an order,, i hadn't realized the more stylish things they're capable of until I looked into them on social media and found your channel..,
I definitely gravitate towards Frank's. There's nothing they aren't willing to do. And seemingly nothing they aren't capable of doing at a high level. Some of these seasoned boot makers get stuck in their ways. Stay off my lawn type attitudes. They make it how they make it, and they are great at it. They scoff at new ideas. But Frank's crew embraces a challenge. They seem to relish bringing something new to life. It's all alá carte if you want it to be, ya know? If you have something odd or different in mind, or a special need just talk to them. They'll still do handwelt, they'll still do full custom, they still do McKay-Lockstitch, they have the most leather choices, they'll bring in a sole they've never done b4 by request. Plus they will be doing Moc-Toes soon, and Engineers b4 the end of the year they hope. (Frank owned Nick's when they started making Engineers, and he has crew with Engineer experience from Nick's & White's. So they have it figured out, it was about affording an expensive machine and getting patterns ready.) Plus the Ryker's and Monkey's stand alone with no competition in sight.
Nick's keeps heading further in the wrong direction everyday.
White's I still like for some things. They aren't what they used to be, but despite foreign ownership have managed to stay much more true to their roots than Nick's, plus have the most last choices.
JK is shit.
Wesco.....I dunno man....I really liked them a lot for a while, and defended them a lot, , but I don't know WTF is going on over there. I'll have a video coming up on that.
@cloveroak5492 thanks for your time, yeah I wish Frank's upped their online presence, their website, isn't quite alluring for offering such visual products.. their custom casual builds go well beyond what's shown on their website, but it seems they like it quaint n simple.. seems to be their vibe.. whereas Nick's seem to keep wanting more n more of the market.. more general appeal.. Frank's is like... for the ppl already 'in the know' that's the vibe I get
I think Wesco scares enough ppl away with their lead times..hah, I'm rly fond of White's..
I just heard your opinion on JK earlier this morning too.. I'm still curious to try em eventually.. but I can understand the grief.. with the sizing.. and they did it just to be different? hah..
They seem to have a thing for Bison and smooth/rough combos.. wide double row stitch soles,, atleast they found some kind of signature design features.., (even though they're all capable of it) they seem to lean into those offerings
OK, I've gotten through about 12 hours in three weeks and mostly apart from the sound issue [read along with the captions as much as possible], sometimes Mike gets talked over or distracted and doesn't finish train of thought [same with Dale's long vid, which maybe I missed one so far?] so maybe I don't recall all my previous questions BUT here where much of the more important stuff I sort-of knew already, anyway, just from shopping websites and watching other vids YET now I have I guess two main questions if I can be a bit long since the vid is long, anyway.
FIRST, so if all the PNW companies are using the lasts made by the same company and they are all pretty much using Vibram outsoles, how can we say that they fit differently? I ordered a pair of JK boots and they won't be here for another month, but now I'm second-guessing the size I ordered based upon the other boots I got from Nick's. By your estimations, it sounds like the Nick's boots are probably incorrect because I bought a standard width and should have gotten a wide one for more correct toe room? The gal acted like they just need to break in, and the arch doesn't feel like it's in the wrong place, but their leather is not as thick as Frank's but is still pretty firm against the side of my feet and toes. And when I have work boots, I hate when I'm sliding around and can't pull the laces tight enough, BUT they are also mostly being worn on flat terrain and don't have high arches. I assume the bison leather being more malleable, they would be less problem if they are snug? I'm not sure how Lact-to-Toe models would affect this, either. I think that's really two questions already, actually.
The JK boots can be returned unworn but then they charge a rebuild fee or something if I want to upgrade the pair, but I decided I would check out the OT series for a more general hiking boot than a Superduty, and here they offer less midsole and arch support but I'm not sure if they've cut too many corners for the price or if these will be more like what I've been looking for. So I guess I wish this vid would have come out last month so I could have asked your opinion if they are an overpriced gimmick.
It looks like some of the White's work boots I was curious about are probably no real upgrade from some of the other models like Red Wing, and I'm not sure if Nick's will do any cowboy boots with decent-looking leather or other details instead of the bland brown ones. I'm disappointed to see how few cowboy boots seem to be worth wearing, even if they have higher price tag...
Like I said, I thought I had more but can't think of it all at the moment.
Oh, I guess I could try calling the boot companies, but it sounds like they just shuffle me off if they want to refuse the job and not really answer my questions about rebuilds and stuff. IF I have a pair of the regular width and I want to have them converted to wider when getting resoled, would this be some great issue? I had seen a vid where a guy was showing his logger boots and that part where they come together in the upper around the vamp was sort-of bowed outward, I have similar fit to what he was showing it seems and I wondered if I should trim the kilty leather on the sides to get them to sit inside the lacing system more or just ditch them altogether.
I didn't have my Brannock done any time in the past several years because I always just bought shoes that seemed to fit and why some of them seem to have gotten larger or smaller I thought mostly had to do with country of Mfg. Like I've had the same pair of Birks for 20 years that I am wearing right now, so why I have so much trouble with boots now, I don't know. The more expensive they are, the worse it is to try and dial them in?? The only ones that seem to actually follow the SIZE DOWN from "regular" shoe size was maybe the Thursday Captain, but they are narrow with long, pointy toes a little, so maybe that hides the fact that they don't really fit in a conventional sense? I tried sizing down as recommended with Grant Stone and Oak St. and they were too small, but Oliver Cabell and Caswell in "regular" size are a bit loose.. [So maybe I should have tried the shorter, wider but probably wasn't available?] So when the Nick's seemed to fit pretty close, I guess I thought they were "close enough"??
OK, now I'm at the part of the vid where you're talking about this situation with the welted fits so maybe I typed most of that for nothing and I'm slightly less worried about the break in maybe?
Yes, I probably bought all the wrong size of Truman boots that could have been wider? BUT I don't know if I can get arch support added to existing boots, either. It seems like those companies don't want to be bothered, like I said.
Thorogood seems to run a little narrow as well, especially the moc toe stitching and the steel toe. Maybe the toe cap of the non-steel toe will give way a little more with time? I haven't tried any Red Wing boots or all the Wolverine models.