Using military testing procedure on air rifle pellets to improve accuracy in the wind!
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- Опубликовано: 23 июн 2023
- Testing which is the best h&n pellet head size through the air arms xti50, but with a serious twist. the testing procedure is called running interleaved serials and is how the military test ordnance. I was genuinely sceptical about how it would work down range but i will have to do some more testing as the initial tests gave far more accurate results than normal pellet testing. i will retest with the various jsb pellets and air arms fields along with various qys. The results although only a limited sample size in this video are fantastic and show that this testing procedure may well be a game changer for those of us that regularly pellet test outdoors in the wind
the pellets on test are the H&N baracuda ft in 4.50 and 4.51 head sizes.
the 4.51 seems to be the best pellet for the xti50
lots of the top uk benchrest shooters use the baracuda ft and after the results of my testing its easy to see why.
i ran some control groups followed by the interleaved serials and the results speak for themselves. i really cant get my head around the results. conventional wisdom suggests it shouldnt work but its a potential game changer.
the rifle is the new air arms xti50 and has a falcon endura ffp scope. the new mounts are tier one 34mm dovetail.
a lot of the airability crew use the H&N pellets to good effect, i think i will look at these in more detail for some extreme range shooting with the sub 12 xti 
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Excellent and unique method of testing pellets .I was just as excited as you were the moment you did it pellet on pellet 👌
Yeah I was a bit excited and baffled that it actually worked😆. Definitely something to use alongside my usual testing routine going forward. A few of the br shooters are going to try it. Then we can compare results through different rigs
Brilliant video
Great vid.
Yes, I’ve tested pellets like that.
Even tried with 5 different pellets at once.
Gone back though because I get distracted and shoot at the wrong target/with the wrong pellet.
Now days when being serious I pick clean my barrel, shoot 10 “sighters” and shoot at 54 dots on a A4 paper (on cardboard) per pellet aiming directly at the dots.
Express does well on calm days, heavies in the breeze. LG110.
Great information. Will try it out myself. Great video
Excellent video as always and l will definitely be giving that method a try 👍
These findings are very close to my experience. I will be trying the alternate pellet method testing.
Interesting theory, hadn't tested exactly like that but have seen the difference with baracuda ft early batches in 2019 where the head sizes sent (4.50 and 4.51) made massive differences in both drop and how much wind they took. My tests were done with 3 guns, the steyr, ye olde pro target and the 9015.
This is great thanks I just started doing this with my .30 cal AEA Challenger. .30 cal ammo is more expensive and my budget is limited so I just did this today and found that .301 Javelin 52 gr grouped better than the H&N Slug HP II, 30 Cal., 54 Grains. So good in fact that I came home and looked up National Rifle League competitions in my area. I think I have this .30 cal beast tuned well enough to at least dip my feet in the competitive pool. Thanks for your videos. I will be adding a little wind flag to my rig thanks to you
the range here in Idaho has grass all along the way so doping for wind is easy but that won't always be the case having a wind indicator on board is a great idea I also would like a scope level for NRL
Great video. I just tried it with interesting results.
Nice one, how did it go?
@tillysgunstocks I used both its favourite pellets. The Kaiser was slightly better than the 8's but both are impressive.
Great video, will definitely give this method a try next time I’m out shooting. I wonder what kind of results you would get with different brands of belles, but the exact same weights.
I truly wish you were able to test .22 at FAC levels. I prefer 18 grain + for hunting and seldom ever see any real quality videos on what it does down range and potential accuracy unless the ammo happens to be slugs. I prefer pellets not only for cost but safety. Many seem to have forgotten what the shape of our ammo does to its effectiveness down range and distances due to drag. Slugs are a no-go where I live for the most part. Only a few directions they can be sent safely. You do pellets and thorough and informative videos. I hope I can see this in the near future. Your into precise accuracy as am I . Don’t know how others aren’t as concerned about boringly accurate.😉BTW can you include each round’s speed? That would help a lot also.
Once a pellet hits a certain velocity it tends to lose stability and will tumble which is why you'll see slugs used on fac as slugs dont use drag to stabilise at distance so they maintain a lot more kenetic energy when they impact vs pellets.
There was another british airgun channel using sub 12 ftlb testing pellets vs slugs and he even had a device that could measure the projectile speed even upto either 50 or 100 yards away i forget exactly how far it was but i remember his findings were the pellets lost a good amount of their kenetic energy at around 50 yards.
[ 😮 if am going to shoot for accuracy l drink 3.2 beer for farts and the Hersey squirts...😮 ]
Please test jsbs against H&Ns or another brand side by side. Just to prove a point. Great content, keep it coming.
I've recently been pellet testing with my new Impact. Indoors at 30m, I couldn't pick from 3 pellets, Bisley LRG-14g, JSB -15.8g and AA-18g. All pellet on pellet. Down the range in windy conditions, out to 30m all were good, at 40m the LRG struggled, the other were ok. But with the windy gusting up and down it was difficult to get accurate info. So, I loaded my magazine with alternate JSB and AA, my target was at 50m, A4 paper with one centre dot. 2 groups formed straight away, JSB blowing off to the edge of the paper with a 2 inch group but the AA-18g were only an inch to 2" from the centre dot, with an inch group. All done with quite rapid fire. Tried the LRG at 50m but struggled to hit the paper in the wind. I then moved out to 64m 3" spinning targets, still windy. With 10 shots, aiming off the LRG I hit 1 out of 10, JSB 5/10, AA 8/10. So, I'll be using the AA for long range hunting and others for close range stuff.
It's amazing how much the wind affects the downrange performance eh. I love all the testing it seems like I'm always learning more every time I push myself in the wind.😉
@tillysgunstocks.... A big part of doing the test was that the majority at the range were saying lighter and faster in the wind is better, so in the case of .22, the 14g in the wind were terrible even though they were the fastest through the chrono. My next test will be to compare my R10 that loves JSB 10.34g in the wind against my .22 impact with AA-18g, both rifles set up next to each other, two targets side by side, at 30, 40, 50m both being shot at the same time and then we'll see the movement and group size against very fast .177 and the slower 18g .22.
The higher the bc of the pellet through your gun the less wind they will take.
It's that simple ..the speed and weight don't have much to do with it .presuming the muzzle energies are the same .
Excellent stuff , and an excellent pellet as well ( no matter what the head size ) always keep half a dozen tins in stock at home .. Don't really matter what size head they are when I go to the shop .. nevertheless , if ive got a new rifle to test , I will use the same brand in the barrel .. ie: FT's , FTT's , terminators , ect , THEN clean barrel for different brand ... your vids are very interesting ... lot lot better then striking up a conversation with the wife .. OR .. watching antiques roeadshow ( other crap TV programs are available ) .. keep up the good work , our sanity depends on you in this crazy world ...
Looking at how the different head sizes perform down range, I'd think it's definitely worth running both side by side and seeing which if any,gives a marginal edge. Them 4.51 are much easier to judge the drift at 45 and further in my barrel.
Not too badly priced and readily available too.😉
I would think it is only a good way of testing if you use the same make and lead composition. I have noticed some pellets not that bothered with shooting alongside other makes and others very fussy. Crosman have been the worst for me and need a good leading in before the groups start to shrink. I have been getting great results with BSA Goldstar .22 in my R10 and HW90k. My 99s loves .177 Daystate Kaiser and my Daystate Mk3 RT .177 loves JSB 8.44. I have been told 4.53 work best but could only get 4.52 last time I bought some. Love your video's and always look forward to new content.
Interleaving makes sense. Could you test instead inside to avoid the wind effects. Many Thanks.
Master
Hi sir have you try different pellet lenght but same weight?
Does it change the POI? Thank you for your answer
I did and exercise of measuring the head and skirt of a range of pellets these were .22 basically and the variation was scarey
I am not sure if that is the proper way of testing Air Rifle pellets? Because some of them are pure lead, some lead alloy and other are lead free. That means they will act different sliding down the bore while shot on they own lead film smeared in the bore and different on the lead film of other, earlier shot pellets. Thats why you should "foul" the barrel after each cleaning with that lead film. Military uses propably only copper or brass jacket bullets so it doesnt make any difference but still may.
Intetesting topic.
Lead free testing might be a better indiciator of this means of testing as it removes the need for leading in the barrel?
Quite possibly mate,but from what I've seen so far with pb free it goes the other way with barrel fouling.
Dunno I might well give it a try at some point,just not in the xti barrel..
Brilliant video and very informative 😃 I’ll try this at some point! Slightly off subject, do you still have any of your adjustable butt hooks for the Katran? I’ve left you a few voicemails, but you haven’t come back to me yet. Take care mate and keep up the good work. Andy👍🏻
Hi mate, I've got some hooks due in the next week or 2. I've been out the shop for best part of a fortnight, been somewhat preoccupied elsewhere , trying to catch up with everyone as best I can now I'm working again.sadly thats why I didn't get a vid up last week either 😞
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Air guns 4 military ? After changing pellots or slugs, I get maybe 3 flyers till barrol gets use to them.
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Is your xti shooting as it should? I'd expect far better for the money? My ultimate sporter r does 20 shot group of 11mm at 46m with baracuda ft and hft500 does 10 shot group of 6mm at 46m with jsb heavy. Both outdoors using unweighed pellets.
Yep it'll absolutely stack them In calm conditions, the groups are exactly as you would expect in the wind. Just a 3mph wind will give approx 1cm of drift at just 25yds. Add in a swirly wind running all over the place and along hedgelines and not aiming off to accommodate the wind and the groups will be all over the shop. The forecast when I shot these was 5-9mph that's potentially upto 50mm(or more ) of drift at 45yds.😉
I'm also looking at buying a fancy anemometer (wind meter) with a large display,hopefully I can get it to do real time wind readouts so we can see what's going on down range better. Good idea,you reckon?
@@tillysgunstocks silk ribon on a stick will do 🤣
@@tillysgunstocks
Windsocks at airports are actually rather accurate at indicating diffrent wind speeds/direction.
I use 4 foot welding rods and “indicator” tape + a handheld anemometer (for reference)
@@kris2435 last time I had a ribbon out, I turned my back for a moment and the goat was trying to eat it 😆
When an ill-fitting pellet leaves a piece of lead in the barrel it would effect the accuracy of the next pellet, which may be perfect yet show a poor group through always having to content with debris. The test is worth doing as a piece of critical analysis but should not be the only test.
Absolutely correct.it needs further testing to check how feasible it is going forward but the concept seems sound enough to add to our usual testing regimes.
might be interesting to get chrono readings, and as you say head sizes , tail sizes might be just as important . However judging by your initial results extrapolating meaningful results might well be as pointless as it would be difficult.
I don't think this would replace our usual testing regimes, but certainly a useful additional test for when the weather is marginal and you still need to test. Monitoring the drifts and drops at range will be enough to tell you wether it's worth carrying on with a particular pellet. 😉
The only way to test one pellet against another is to take out the human influence, especially loading a single shot rifle between rounds/pellets, and then remove the weather, so this means an indoor 25 yard range with a maintained temperature, and the gun clamped in a frame that is bolted to a concrete floor.
Interleaving aside, you have too many other control factors to remove from the situation, depending on the rifle, before even considering moving from Groups.
In addition, I would argue that you would also have to use an identical scope on different rifles to remove any difference caused by optics in a real World post indoor testing range time. Again, preparing for real World use, after selecting the best pellet indoor at 25 yards, you'd then fit a barrel tuner for use at your selected pellet a your favoured distance beyond 25 yards indoors.
Then, all your efforts in the real World are Human and Weather related, you've selected the best pellet for the rifle, and tuned the barrel for it for longer distances; the rest is you and coping with the day.
Hi mate, removing the variables such as a wobbly human behind the rifle and the wind won't tell you an awful lot when you get outside. I gave them away, but recently had a batch of express 7.9gn that were absolutely br accurate indoors at 25. Infact one of the best I've seen in recent years. However they were hopeless in even the lightest of winds outdoors.
Imo you absolutely need to set your equipment up in the conditions you use them and familiarise yourself with how they perform down range in as many varying conditions as you can 😉
Testing in ideal conditions has its place, particularly in projectile or barrel development, but all final testing should be carried out in field conditions. Artillery range and accuracy trials are always carried out with the guns in "as used" configuration, even down to the level of using weights to simulate the crew's personal kit in a 30 ton vehicle, with the ground also being chosen to represent typical service conditions. I have seen cases where ammunition which has not been tested in field conditions, only controlled test conditions, has been bought by the thousand only for it to be unusable in service. This usually happens when the ammunition which has been bought is marginally stable so that anything which disturbs it is catastrophic, which will not show in trials carried out indoors in perfect conditions from a gun stand. The method shown here was developed to try to ensure as far as possible that the two projectiles being compared see the same atmospheric conditions, not just wind though that is usually the main problem, but any atmospheric condition, they can all affect how your projectile flies.
@@tillysgunstocks I did mention the real World outdoors coping bit, or I think I did.
@@milesm1465 Well, not sure many pellets pass through any thermoclines on the way to a target, but weighing them out, sizing them, all indoors, and trying these in varying wind conditions after proving they group the best indoors is the real World test, finding out they are unstable in certain conditions would be a reason to reject that pellet type/manufacturer.
I get the same issues at 100 yards with .22lr in windy conditions (Lapua Centre-X), where projectile spin and wind direction/gusting play an enormous part in the results on the range I use at 1,280 ft ASL in South Shropshire. I accept that pellets 'are' inherently more stable below 950fps without spin. BTW the difference between 25 yards and 100 yards is 10 MOA of holdover using the above brand.
Also, Target Competition when its raining stair rods at any distance is challenging, although I'm not really testing the maximum range of .22lr which to all intents and purposes is probably somewhere between 800 to 1200 yards depending on stated fps (saw an experiment where someone was firing out to sea where various buoys marked the range), despite the warnings on the box being up to 2 miles.
All I'm interested in is a safe backstop.
yep! been comparing batches, head sizes and brands by shooting alternately (interleaf) since the mid 80's! it's the only true test. ..... 'leading in' is an urban myth
What do you make of the additional drop on the interleaved groups mate? I've done a few more tests since filming and seen it happen again, foible of the testing maybe?
I almost understand him.
Rather than bench resting why would you not ridgidly clamp the rifle and take out the human element?
You live on a farm right? Why not build an enclosed 45yrd tunnel or use a barn for pellet testing. You need to remove the wind variable completely
Honestly mate, removing the wind isn't that useful atall unless at design and development stages of airgun manufacture. (That's another sideline of mine)
If like me you only shoot outside, then testing indoors will give you way more false positives than you'd really like. There's so many pellets that will give mega results indoors, but the moment you get into the wind they are wild and unpredictable.
I've some batches here of 2022 jsb heavies that frankly are only 'ok' indoors but incredibly consistent in the wind, moreso than many other batches of numerous brands I've used.ive also had batches of express 7.9s that are absolutely br accurate indoors but basically impossible to use predictably at range,in the wind. That predictability is what we need when dealing with the wind and weather at our typical powers and ranges.😉
'Promo SM'
The Head size marked on the tin is meaningless. For example in a tin marked 4.50,,yes you get about 20-25 % 4.50,,the remaining 75% are a mixture of 4.49,,maybe a few 4.48,, some 4.51 and some 4.52.I know this to be basically true,,because I have measured many a tin(over the past 10 years).The weight can range,in JSB's case(the diabolo 4.52-8.44 grain) all the from 8.2 gr. to 8.7 gr.-sometimes higher smotimes lower.
Look at Englands own ''Si Pittaway'' and his videos on this effect on shooting accuracy.
Might as well cast your own at that point, then size and weigh after casting and remelt dosn thise not upto size/weight.
oh wait basically nobody makes pellet molds...
I cannot for the life of me,understand why you are not weighing them(using the exact same weight each time) ,AND sizing them( to get same same exact head size),,,to can get these results use a good scale($200. at least),and the ''Pellet Scale''.
Without doing these procedures,,,you are going around IN CIRCLES,,like a dog chasing its tail.,,AND getting the same results time after time.
It's simply a proof of concept at the point of filming, so going too mad weighing wasn't a consideration.
But as an aside, the average weight variation through the tins of h&n is of far less significance down range (at our typical sub12 ranges)than the wind/prevailing weather conditions.
Now we know that interleaving is a viable proposition we can take it further with more involved /tighter tolerances on the pellets and larger sample runs 😉
@@tillysgunstocks Totally disagree,,,how do you know without testing??? I have,,,I know,,,,you do not!!!
Please speak slowly. It is hard to understand you for non native speakers
Hi mate, I try my best but I get excited and talk fast 😆
A lot of the lads use the cc function on here. I don't know how accurate it is,but hopefully it helps 😉
@@tillysgunstockshe must be used to reading very fast too😅
Change the playback speed under settings, can't really expect a content producer to change their speech patterns.
Not much skill 😂
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