One thing that severely irks me about the conclusion is that the first issue made a huge deal about Hotspot, essentially framing his death like Trayvon Martin's, only for the final issue to go "It's okay, George Zimmerman... You just had a Heated Speedster Moment..."
There's a panel in Doomsday Clock #10 where Dr. Manhattan says I don't understand this universe. That's everyone with DC right now. There is no continuity in DC right now.
I think that was for all the other times dc prime earth got rebooted or changes incontinuity by many differnt big stories and crises. But yeah, doomsday clock was really good this week, and king and bendis's books are terrible and don't care about the continuity of books or it's characters and do what they do for themselves and their belive of good story telling.
@@krashy2098 Rebirth was all about bringing back the old. It was slowly undoing a reboot. But that takes a lot of planning and DC decided to not focus on it.
HIC was the worst thing I’ve read in a long time. Not only is the continuity messed up but it has uncharacteristic actions and bad dialogue. Although the message is to get help; HIC further pushes the negative stigma that those people are an extreme danger to society and themselves. It does more harm than good imo. I feel like King is a one trick pony that does the same trick less and less well every time. And yes anything can be fixed at any time in comics but it’s just cheapening the quality of something impactful. I’m really glad to see people speaking their grievances on HIC and DC and don’t think it should be considered hate but more of a warning for them to get it together. It’s easy to become jaded and not care but as reviewers or general fans, we need to care. Comics save lives; as do music, film and other forms of art. Like you said, how many people dropped this book before Superman’s speech?
HiC also says that if I open up about my problems to a therapist, I risk them being exposed to the whole world because somebody ELSE made the choice for me that I'd be better off with my personal business being splattered across the headlines. And this is meant to.....encourage people to open up about mental health?
Tom probably should have went the indie with the story and focused on soldiers or a Unit of superpowered soldiers and told this story. The story probably would have worked better if it focused on a team like challengers of the Unknown and made the story more intimate.
Bottom line, Tom King doesn't have a firm grasp on any of these characters. He doesn't understand any of them involved in this story. That's why it's been an utter mess
I’m glad that you didn’t just go on a huge rant and approached this with common sense. It really sucks what editorial did to this book. It was never meant to be a murder mystery and it shows. When King pitched this book, it wasn’t meant as an event book but a book that explored difficult topics with absolute sincerity. It’s so clear that this was changed to Identity Crisis 2.0.
KidSnivy96 I agree dc editorial really needs to a major overhaul or at least get rid of dan didio and his bullshit and just keep Geoff Johns in charge of dc comics.
@@CAKECO. unfortunately after Geoff Johns stepped down creative director Dan didito came way back in and ruined everything and made heroes in crisis to get rid of wally west my flash for bullshit.
If the moral of this story was that you should talk about your problems, then I'd say Unstoppable Wasp 4 and 5 did this better in 2 issues, then heroes I'm crisis did in 9.
From what I heard, Tom King had a premise and then DC played mad libs with the characters. Instead of writing a story based on the characters, they wrote a story then forced characters into it. No wonder it was garbage
I'm so sorry, but I completely disagree with your argument about the "good intentions" of this comic book. There aren't any. Think about it, this story says that people who are dealing with PTSD and Depression are dangerous, that even when they are looking for help, in a facility made to help people deal with those issues, that they can have an "episode" and just murder everyone, and it's better just to take them completely out of society and keep locked up in solitary confinement. I really don't understand the point of telling a story that send a message like that. Raymond Chandler wrote the script for Blue Dahlia specially to talk about PTSD and his original ending was about how soldiers were dealing with something like PTSD and that they needed help. But Heroes in Crisis is totally different, Wally was getting help, and he murdered everybody and the solution? Solitary in Jail. I might be wrong, but that is a totally messed up message to send, specially with the US and the amount of the veterans dealing with PTSD and Depression today. I'm sorry, but I don't think the writer had any good intentions, and if he did, he totally dropped the ball there.
Having characters say and do things that they would never do, even at their lowest points, is character assassination because it confirms lies about who these characters are. The message cannot overshadow the botch job of WRITING that attempted to get to it. When the history is written incorrectly, when the dialogue is bad, and when the actions are out of character, the character being used to demonstrate it all is being degraded because that stuff will stick to them in future portrayals. Wally West and Roy Harper have been through stories that brought them lower than this and they still overcame and never went to these lows. Before this story, no one would say Wally was capable of any of this, including the accidental deaths, because the Speedforce doesn't work that way. The priorities and thought processes he was shown with in this are nothing like him. Taking away the impacts of this story from everything involved as soon as possible would have been for the best because this story makes everything it touches worse. Unfortunately we're a year later and some of this crap is still around. Hopefully Death Metal can fully erase this awful story like New 52 and Rebirth erased Identity Crisis. Lastly, making the alleged intentions more important than the unintended messages or at least letting them dampen the massive flaws of the storytelling makes no sense to me personally. That's the justification behind Cuties, and it's disgusting to watch children or heroic ideals be defiled because some writer or producer thought the positive message would protect them from criticism. If we were supposed to believe that the trauma Wally has experienced didn't make him less good, then he would have done something actually heroic in this series. He is the deluded villain who thought they were the good guy, as far as this story was concerned. And on the topic of King's intentions, he would have had Wally deliberately fire off machine guns in Sanctuary at one point before being forced to change the story.
All Star Superman was written well and it explored the vulnerability of a superhero. I would speculate that too many editorial mandates regarding details in the story. Why did any hero have to die to get to the idea of compassion and commiseration? The soldier angle makes the whole story seem to surround PTSD and friendly fire. And Roy, who was a heroine addict, really should have more to him in this type of story. Maybe it should have been a more personal piece and not include so many super folks. You took a nice, sympathetic view to this series, Thorgi. Good for you.
The Black Label idea actually fixes most of the problems people have with this story. If only the higher ups at DC had the same common sense that their fanbase does.
I completely agree about King. When left to his own devices he craft amazing stories but the higher ups influencing his stories negatively affects what he puts out. I've stopped paying attention to DC continuity anymore its a mess.
Id be more specific and say the closer his stories get to continuity and big characters the worse his work is. Vision and mister miracle were allowed to do their own thing with minor characters but his batman and heroes in crisis stand as his more controversial work
ablo show Painting comparison doesn’t work in this case because there isn’t just one artist. This is product with multiple people control where it goes and the editorial can change it to whatever they want.
@@ricardorios2355 yeah but he still wrote the lion share of the work. No ones complaining about the art or the letering or the sfx they are complaining about the actual writen content of the book. The writing is the peice of the whole that is failing and while hes ideas were good hes actual ability to write and present the unfolding events was lacking. The painting looked great in hes head but he couldnt make it look right to everybody else.Intentions dont mean squat if executions are bad. Another example is when a 3rd grader tried to explain a book on quantum physics. Even if he understands it hes ability to communicate hes knowledge is too infantile to actually get across anything anybody understands. Mr King was just not readyvto write the book and the editors should have picked up on this.
ablo show Tom King had a book already but editorial wanted to make it an event. Tom King is an employee and has to do what editorial tells him to do. He wanted a book that explored PTSD and editorial told him to make it into Identity Crisis 2.0. At the end of the day, Tom King has to stand by the company on their decision because they are the boss.
@@ricardorios2355 An admirable sentiment that ignores a big, gaping problem: King fucked up his job here. Maybe that's due to editorial or publishing letting him down. Maybe it's because he's lacking the right chops to make a story like this work. But his name on the final product so he gets majority share of the blame.
Thank you, for what you said about hate among RUclips channels. I think there are a lot of problems in modern comics, but the industry of contempt that has sprung up makes me feel like a man without a country, it just feels so demoralizing towards the hobby as a whole. Is this what we have become?
"It doesn't mean they're less than what they were before" Errrr...no, Professor. After everything he did, yes. Wally is less than who he was before this started. He is now SO much less than who he was. It doesn't matter what the intent was because they fumbled the moral from the very beginning. Yes. They ruined Wally West.
As someone who hated this book since issue 1, one thing I can say is that it succeeded in having everyone talk about ptsd in heroes/soliders, which I guess is what King wanted.
I think the poor execution actually detracted from the message. Most reviews and feedback I’ve read were focused on the character assassination of Wally.
This was the best and more nuanced HIC review I found by far, thanks a lot for the care you put into it! I noticed the channel hasn't been updated for a while.. are there plans for it to come back? Hope you and your loved ones are doing well
@@mocca3633 he's not a Barry fanboy. That would be Geoff Johns who also likes Wally alot. Dio literally just had the idea of sidekicks and while he seems okay with the third generation like Tim Drake and Bart Allen. He hates the hell out of the first generation of sidekicks like Dick and Wally, it sure if he ever gave s reason why
@@ryancarson6962 must of been why he and the heads as DC let Bendis take over Superman and write Lois and John out of his life for stupid reasons than bring them back as such an inconsistent family
Heroes in Crisis lead to some of my favorite issues of Willaimson's Flash run. The other characters dealing with Wally's death actually helped me cope with the recent suicide of one of my best friends. I saw how characters like Barry and Iris grieved, and it felt real and good to know that the way I grieve is normal. That I'm not alone. So, t the very least, HiC gave me that.
NOTE: I have nothing against the creators of this story. Only the story itself. Here's why: The biggest problem this story, in my opinion, is its lack of consistency. This story is, at its core, a character study disguised as a murder mystery. But, instead of studying the characters as they are, their personalities are changed to fit King's ends. This story is steeped in me suspending my belief for three ideas: 1) Wally West is depressed and has been for a few years, despite all evidence to the contrary ; 2) Booster Gold, Harley, Batgirl, and Blue Beetle are total douchebags who only care about themselves; 3) time travel can work as described in the way it needs to. All three of these points fail upon the slightest bit of critical thinking. 1) While yes, Wally West was emotionally destroyed by Zoom's revelation in Flash War that Wally had lost his family because of Barry's Flashpoint, there were no signs of him being so broken that he was losing control of his actions and morals. He was frustrated at Barry for going back in time and ruining his life, and even more frustrated that Barry refused to help him fix it. But, Wally was able to keep his emotions in check to defeat Zoom, something that surprised the villain. TLDR, there was nothing in Wally's character that could've shown him to be capable of this. 2) This story is entrenched in continuity, some of it pre-Flashpoint. This continuity is supposed to inform why the characters are being written the way they are. Here, it only further baffles me. An example: There are references to Geoff Johns' Booster Gold run (the one where we established that Booster only pretends to be an idiot. In reality, he's probably one of the most selfless people in the DCU). Yet, King seems to only remember one or two events that happened in that run, not the character building that Booster underwent. He didn't kill Ted or betray him, as this story would have you believe. No, Booster Gold tried over and over and over again to save Ted. Even if Booster pulls Ted out of time and brings him to the present, he gets killed nonetheless. It's as if Ted's death is something that needs to happen. Finally, Ted asks Booster to stop and let him die, as his death will allow for countless others to live. Booster Gold would continue to be characterized like this until Tom King got his hands on him, and completely disregarded that character. King does this a lot: take a character and redefine their personality. But, it doesn't work in an extended universe where the character has been consistently characterized a certain way for years, then does a 180° because King doesn't understand the character. If you want a character to change, then do it through story. 3) Flash War was the big lead into this event. In it, time is broken by Wally and Barry's fight. Thus, nobody can travel through time, be it through devices or the speed force. Even Citizen Cold, a time traveler, is trapped in our time. At the end of Flash War, Wally goes to Sanctuary, meaning that Heroes in Crisis takes place at a time when time still can't be traveled through. A month or two later in an event that was hinged on Joshua Williamson's Flash War, Tom King ends the story by saying "Wally and Booster traveled through time". What? It's like Tom King wants to reference continuity, but not take the time to characterize accordingly. And in a character study, that is awful.
I totally forgot that time travel is currently impossible right not. The continuity or I guess the lack of structure in their current continuity is really starting to hurt man.
@@christianhayward89 I know, right? I got into DC again because of Rebirth. During those first two years, it felt like everything was so connected. Now, I'm seeing it fall apart because of poor management, and it's just depressing. Hopefully, the events of Doomsday Clock will force DC to get their act together.
I expected some critical assessment of the sanctuary therapy program in the last issue, the anonimity and isolation was counterproductive, would have been cool if we at least saw group tal sessions instead of the continuation of the confession tapes things, group sessions would've been much more in line with sharing and reaching out to others.
I've been waiting to hear from you on this. The intentions WERE good...but that is what the road to hell is paved with, and it is where Dan Didio and Tom King are trying to send Wally West.
Some of the characters killed were growing into decent characters pre new 52 and we're tossed aside after. I loved tattooed man (Ink) from his stint in Titans with Roy Harper and Deathstroke. Many of my favorite 2nd & 3rd tier characters never recovered from that travesty.
Am I the only one who heard the intro music and got sad because they remembered SBF? Well, on that note, RIP Wally West, too, I guess. And yeah I saw the video, but for me personally I can't get past the idea that this was just too obviously a way for certain people to get rid of the character.
Thorgy . This series in no way addressed the reality of PTSD. I'm a psych RN for 16 years and this is not the way you treat people with PTSD and suicide. DC totally dropped the ball on this.
Didn't know about the death threats that messed up(I love nick Spencer Spider-Man , the immortal hulk and DCEASE show the love people #SHOWLOVE #TellACREATOR
Hey, I did my homework. I thanked Neil Gaiman for his many amazing works. I also want to thank you for keeping your channel positive. It is why I follow and watch your videos instead of other comic youtubers. We live in an angry hateful world. We need more people to try to support positivity.
Tom King at best is self indulgently foisting his depression onto the characters he writes (and the readers by extension) and at worst is engaging in subversion and demoralization which entirely fits his CIA background.
It's healthy to be angry, but to the point of murdering someone over fictional characters, there's definitely somthing wrong with you. But yeah, the book sucks. I have fear for his bat/cat mini-series. But we'll just have to wait and see. Thanks for the vid thorgi. (Also could you talk about last knight by snyder for comic class, please?) Now if you excuse me, gotta do my thorgi hw for creator i love and spread some positively. Please do the same for whoever is reading this. Thanks 😏
Aaron I agree and I will #SpreadPosativity. But yeah the murder mystery really through this off. I thought it would end with like batman talking to Wally about failing to save Jason, superman losing original supergirl. Like lost and sadness and talking about it in a meaningful way.
Really respect your attempt to keep a positive tone. However, intent in no way negates affect. As a person who battles mental illness and is a trauma survivor I found this series to be in poor taste.
Why are people making death threats. I was reading his Batman run and didn't like it. So, I stopped reading it. People have lost there minds. I'm a big Batman fan, but I'm not going to go on social media and start threatening writers because I don't like what they are doing. Just stop buying the book.
I'd put it down to possessiveness. For some fans, they get attached so hard to a character that they act like they alone have the right to dictate said character's fate. It's sad that Stephen King's novel Misery remains an extreme but accurate illustration of this mentality in action.
I absolutely LOVED DC rebirth. And this series killed me. Almost every ending tom king brings gets me so upset and just want to be done with him. I still read shazam and I still read aquaman and so many other books. But I used to pick up titans and batman and superma first. Now I avoid them like the plague
I went to Twitter and told Tom King how much I loved HiC issue 9. It made me cry. That you're not alone message is quite powerful for anyone dealing with depression 💜💜💜
I really feel for all those DC fans who have to deal with shit like this, because it's not bad enough that DC can't keep ground with a single movie anymore, they have to scalpel potentially good stories for their heroes because of people behind the scenes letting their personal feelings getting in the way. i don't read Marvel or DC comics just because of this, knowing that for every good writer, someone's going to come in and fuck it all up. And from what I'm hearing, DC really isn't doing their material any justice by constantly changing shit. The amount of people ranting about the Supergirl comic...whoo boy.
I couldn't agree more with your points on Heroes In Crisis, your idea about how HIC could have been delivered, and your feelings how DC is running there current books. You're 100% correct on the changes at DC and how things dont make sense again. I feel like it started with an event that was heavy and made of strong material and then got exacerbated when that other writer came in, the one from Marvel. Sigh... such is comics, I guess
Man you hit it right on the head about why I really have had such a hard time really caring about DC right now. It just seems like since if they dont care why should I? I love the DCU, but its like you said if there are just no rules and no one cares then it just killed my interest in most books.
Not a big comic reader, so I have to ask...does Dan DiDio hate Wally? The character had a lot of devoted fans from his old Flash series, he was on the Justice League animated series, and it was a good character development from what I did read... This? Everything since the New 52 and now this? I just can’t shake the feeling DiDio hates Wally.
@19:40 Thank GOD someone said it! I agree that the message is well intended but executed HORRIBLY. Ultimately it's great that Wally is still going to work on himself and not give up. Imagine telling that to the families of the other heroes that were killed: "Your son/daughter/husband/wife/etc was accidentally killed by another one of our heroes. But fret not!! While your loved one is still dead, their accidental killer is going to keep working on themself. So yeah!" ....like the hell?!
@@mr.no-to-body8121 i certainly hope so because i miss my wally west flash being a hero instead of him now being a villian who frames his own friends because he messed up.
@@jamcalx same here and it breaks my heart that my favorite speedster wally west had to get screwed over for bullshit and the way this story handled the state of mental health is really awful and just messed up that it isn't even funny.
It's more than that it felt like this whole series was DC's attempt to "cut bait and run" by eliminating characters who were not selling books, DC's PoV is if one character that hasn't been relevant for a LOOOOOOOONG time has to die along the way then so be so be it for us to accomplish this.
I dont even read DC comics, just wanted to see what is all the talk about, but I have to comment on the first part rant, because I totally agree. I have been keeping myself away from the alot of the pop culture fandoms because it seems that every week there is something to be angry about. Is really sad that we still have to hear about writers and creators receiving death threats for the stupidest reasons and see a very loud part of the fanbase acting like children. It gives people who think like Bill Maher all the more reasoning to keep thinking like that.
Somehow, I think that DC either is slowing killing itself or already has, as controversial as that sounds, with what the Professor said, this feels like DC is in a denial stage
A fellow comic reader and I had a joke about DC back in the 1990s. To wit, the universe reboots like Crisis On Infinite Earths and Zero Hour were the equivalent of an old person trying to convince readers that they were still young and hip with plastic surgery. I think that they may have finally overdone said surgery on this one.
I wish I never knew rebirth. Becaude the First one. With Wally returning and crying? Hell, I cried too. It was so incredible, so promissing, so wholesome. Sure, I was prepared for deaths, even him. Sure, i didn't like Wallace at first, but he grew on me. A New flash family... Lets Go. And them... HEROES IN CRISIS... NO. NO... NO... NO... this netorare history... Why destroy?
Dude that mixture screwed with me. It pushed so many stories around changed super girls whole story and so much other stuff. If anyone didnt read that superman story then no one would know who the ladies at the DOD.
You know what? I just deleted my comment where I was joking about this book, cause now I'm just sad! Could someone just fire Dideo already? Why do all the big DC books have to suck so hard? After Metal everything started to go so wrong! The wedding, Titans starting to suck, John Kennt aging seven years Green Arrow now hating the Justice league. There is only one good ongoing book right now and that is JL by Snyder, maybe JL Dark. What happens if over the last year?
I'm currently enjoying the current runs with Teen Titans, Titans, and Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps. Especially the current stuff with Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps involving the White Lantern Corps I'm hoping for more storylines further explaining the White Lantern Corps like what their oath is, are there any rules that Kyle has put to keep them from abusing their power rings including the fact they have the power of the entire emotional spectrum.
So having read the awesome Doomsday clock. Is Dr. MANHATTAN going to fix this mess? Is that why they delayed both comics to come out at the same time? I mean Wally's flash emblem was glowing blue energy in the last panel? Was it MANHATTAN messing with the time line. Cause they showed Wally trying to stop him . I'm just so confused now.
I think the big death wasn't Roy it's Poison Ivy, not saying Roy wasn't important but they killed one of Batman's major antagonists, and yes Wally did bring her back but Ivy isn't the same character she was before her death Ivy's not even human anymore she's now a plant creature like Swamp Thing, that's going to have ramifications for years to come
For me, its not the fact that he killed those people, every hero has their fuck ups on the job (including Batman); Its what he did after that. Him (mistakenly or unintentionally) framing Harley Quinn and Booster Gold and allowing them to be hunted by the Justice League. That part of the story is where it soured for me.
Also I am starting to agree that nothing matters with DC comics anymore because ever since Dan didito got back in charge everything is falling apart which is the last thing i wanted to happen also i blame bendis and his crap too because my god he has missed the boat with superman and action comics and destroyed the continuity within his books, for example like you said young justice tim drake remembering Conner Kent superboy and the rest of his old team how did zatana know about tim drake mystery also Stephanie brown spoiler father being alive again when did that happen answer we don't know its so annoying but that's just my opinion, also I am still pissed off that another one of my favorite characters Jon Kent superboy is still aged up for no damn Reason just for bullshit.
@@mr.no-to-body8121 i can agree with that in fact one of my all time favorite series i am currently reading is Adventures of the super sons by Peter J tomasi which continues my favorite series the super sons with Both young 10 year old jon kent superboy and Damian wayne having fun taking down this evil group called the gang.
Thing is wally still killed all these heroes like da fuck this is character assassination for him and I don’t see how he can come back from this unless there is a world reset
I think the opinion that how Wally went about it wasn't well crafted or executed efficiently is what makes the action and scenario more real in the fact that it was clumsy and unorganized just like how someone having those feelings would while its happening. But I do agree that when it comes to that kind of writing and using superheroes, it is a cake and eat it too thing. Good video.
Question: after this mess of a story, did they put Wally in a mental hospital or did they send him to jail? Everything in this is stupid but I wonder if they actually going to remember to try to help wally after his breakdown.
The biggest failure of the ending is that the last thing we see is Wally, imprisoned and alone, after an issue discussing the importance of a Support System as opposed to a blank wall like Sanctuary's AI regurgitated to him that was just reinstated without any changes to the system. The ending monologue should have been him talking to Barry, at last.
I very much believe that HiC was meant to be something completely different. Originally, King talked about how a single death was the inciting incident, (It's even reflected in Issue 1's cover), and he's had countless interviews on how Sanctuary functioned. There was that whole SDCC thing where folks went on a boat that simulated the Sanctuary program. The confessionals were supposed to be a "Final Step" of sorts, where you would unmask yourself if you wished. Sanctuary Buttons were supposed to appear in other books, which those who went through the program were given as a token to show they weren't alone. Not only is the use of the confessionals unclear in the series, the death count inflated immensely and you don't get a grasp on just how many were killed until much later. The events of the crime are just as vague; you can't tell a murder mystery story where you don't know who the victims are, or how they were killed. It clearly was never intended to be something to "solve". It was something to be exposited. What I believe was lost in translation was the scale of the conflict; the Leak angle was hasteful and framed as if it was going to unmask everyone, when it was sort of dropped half-heartedly. The trinity bares almost no bearing in the book; Diana has the sole ability to discern lies, and it's decided it doesn't matter. The last issue zeroes in on a theme pretty well, but it doesn't fit with the rest of the series or the ending. The confessionals in 9 turn jokey and flanderized, removing the empathy that was being built in their prior usage (which I often disliked regardless since they either didn't offer new information the the plot, or were jarring with the rest of the subject matter.) It just didn't coalesce. Accidentally killing people isn't as equally bad as leaking sensitive information to the press. It should have ended on actual civilians doing confessionals at least would be a proof that the confessional leak had the intended effect, rather than appearing as if nothing's really different.
On another note, the Harley and Booster POV issues were always a part of the book, but they were originally "Specials" on break months. They were just folded into the main book since it's less confusing. More evidence that the book was something else before it was shifted by editorial, was the solicitations and rejected covers such as the Solicits implying the Sanctuary AI going rogue, Bruce and Barry investigating the Sanctuary premises, and Superman fighting Booster. There was a cover for Roy implying one of said Specials had him in the spotlight rather than Gnaark. That said, The Gift was originally solicited as The Travelers, about Booster needing Batman and Catwoman's help to stop himself from stopping himself from altering their first meeting, but it was a guise to hide the actual arc's premise. It could just be a red herring instead of editorial meddling.
It's such a shame too. I got so excited when a lonely place of living and then supersons of tomorrow came out. I couldn't wait to see how they would effect the continuity and be explained. This is what we're getting now. Random tidbits taken from all over dc history that, while no doubt awesome too call back to, simply don't make sense in today's continuity. Like Ted kord talking about being betrayed by max lord. When the hell did that happen, why is he still alive. Man I'm hella confused
TOM KING put out his message but it was in a comic book with Super Heroes, Super heroes Can't have problem like this, first cause their Not a Soldier, Second They can't be Heroes, if their suffering mental illness, This is like sitting in alcoholics Anonymous meeting ,you don't kill off other alcoholics just because their there. They don't feel your pain, worst Nobody can't catch the Flash cause it not the same Flash from the future? So when we see Wally Next ,Everything is all good now, he's "FIX" he can go back being a super hero ,a side kick, Everybody loves him and Validates him.
Jose Bracero I disagree with the notion that Superheroes can’t have these problems because Jessica Cruz has issues like this and she’s a hero, though there’s a line where if a hero is SO unstable that they can just snap and their powers kill everyone next to them then they shouldn’t have powers or continue being Superheroes, because that’s a pretty scary situation, knowing that if this one hero snaps he could accidentally kill people on mass. That’s a horrifying reality, not a heartwarming moment.
I think I love how you've got your cup with you throughout this vid. It gives it even more of "a guy talking to his mates about a comic" vibe that I love about your comic class videos. As far as HiC goes...I'm just disappointed. Doomsday Clock is the big wow comic that everyone seems to have fallen in love with but if you sat down and really thought over what Dr. M would do in the DC verse, practically everyone who knows anything about the character's apathy towards humanity could have predicted all the big beats to the story. Why is this a problem? Because it seems like Doomsday Clock is the Sword of Damocles hanging over the heads of almost everything DC-related lately. That and the potential end of the multiverse (Again). And Manhatten being the one who messed with the timestream but not completely enough so we have bleed-through is ultimately what set this story off. If the DC-verse had continued and Wally's family got killed or at least critically hurt to where he had a nervous breakdown, put into Sanctuary and then these events happened, it would have actually mattered more to me. Instead, I come away wondering if any of it matters if we're heading for a reset.
And this is the main reason why most of my pull-list is independent for decisions like this that DC and Marvel at times do to their choices. When this event first started for me I thought okay this is intriguing but nearly halfway it start to get real bad for me. Now I know there's people that enjoyed this event and let me just say I am not taking this away from you. If you like this event go ahead and praise it as much as you want. But for me personally I had too many problems with this event way too many problems. The marketing for this series just threw me off because I thought we were going to get an inside look at superheroes after they deal with traumatic events in their life and trying to progress and heal from those events. Even seeing like characters baby like Wonder Woman how she deals with all that she deals with with all her Villain the stuff that the traumatic events of her life and how it affects our relationship is Steve Trevor and the rest of the teeth of the Justice or Batman or Superman. And that the series would be like they got a problem and their bedding to it and then the rest of the series would be them fighting ways of healing and blue all of their lies you keep on doing that they do. But that's not what we got we got a murder mystery and basically a dismantling of a legendary hero that was like this is a waste of time. Nobody at Sanctuary was even in any level of process of body ways of coming to terms with that trouble that's the reason why they were there. If fighting a way to heal and move past it was just basically the patients diagnosing themselves that made no sense to me. And now let me just say that this I know my would a superhero goes bad. let me just say that when a character turns evil eye valve one if it's done right and it's taking its time to set it up and build up to the moment. But for me personally I'm late this was way too quick for Wally West. And why choose Wally West to go evil. And then covered up a blade to other characters Booster Gold and Harley Quinn for the crime. And then white commit suicide that made no sense. Where Wally West still had his kids somewhere in the speed force or wherever his kids are being held. Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's not possible for someone like Wally to snap but the way you just came off it just it made no logical sense. The reason to it all it's not like his family was dead it's just needed to remember it. I mean Wally West was a Legacy character that took over the mantle of The Flash for 20 years. For a lot of us brought up he was our Flash some of the most highly acclaimed last stories Rogue Woodberry die up until very taped back most of those stories either he was on the Justice League or whatever was with Wally West. And DC does him dirty Really! And I'm a guy that enjoys identity crisis. Despite every what big bad at that affect I still enjoyed that story but this was like this made no logical sense whatsoever mostly the second issue and up they have Batgirl act out of character out of nowhere. Leaving Harley Quinn that she didn't say she killed those people at sanctuary without any level of proof. Like come on now real like this this blows my mind how bad the story for me. And like I said get that you like the story that's fine but this story has way too many problems way too many problems too many characters are acting out of character for me. Did Lois Lane I have all the information from sanctuary and like Superman just tells the Justice League after Lois Lane release the information like for real. there's a lot of Heroes that didn't want their personal business out there like that and you just release it not even Superman was acting the way he was why didn't you just tell the Batman and Wonder Woman ahead of time so they can get ahead of this entire thing before it came to the media's attention. It just showed me Superman really doesn't respect his peers and the thing. And I know what you're thinking right now but David Batman is the very things in the past is that a betrayed the other members of the Justice League. and I would say to you except for a few occasions both of time what he did it you can completely understand why he did what he did you can most of the time reason with it and you and you could actually agree why you did it this was one of those times was Superman made this decision and make no sense. It wasn't even at best a necessary evil what Superman just did
"Convoluted" is a good word for it. I want to introduce something about the superhero world, this Sanctuary. Then editorial wants these characters to jump in and make the story less dismal - like a mystery. And then we will take time for a nod at the abuses heaped on Wally West post Barry Allen return. And then I have a story about PTSD. I don't know what started the story, but it just was clear and the story wasn't clean cut. Wally did a lot of wrong - killer, traitor and dishonored by the end. This is a terrible direction to take when you are trying to create sympathy for PTSD. As I said, Morrison had the moment in All Star Superman with the jumper contemplating suicide. It was small, but it was powerful. AS Supes - 10. Tom King could have focused completely on Wally. The mystery could have been "Who killed Wally West?" Speed Force "tears" Wally West apart and that relates to his nervous breakdown. I think he had something but other factors got in the way. A shame.
One thing that severely irks me about the conclusion is that the first issue made a huge deal about Hotspot, essentially framing his death like Trayvon Martin's, only for the final issue to go "It's okay, George Zimmerman... You just had a Heated Speedster Moment..."
There's a panel in Doomsday Clock #10 where Dr. Manhattan says I don't understand this universe. That's everyone with DC right now. There is no continuity in DC right now.
They had continuity. But when Brian Michael bendis and Tom king had bigger influences, that's where the continuity got lost.
I think that was for all the other times dc prime earth got rebooted or changes incontinuity by many differnt big stories and crises. But yeah, doomsday clock was really good this week, and king and bendis's books are terrible and don't care about the continuity of books or it's characters and do what they do for themselves and their belive of good story telling.
I feel like Geoff Jones being meta and calling out DC lmaoo
@@kevinvu5432 Got lost the split second rebirth started, way before bendis
@@krashy2098 Rebirth was all about bringing back the old. It was slowly undoing a reboot. But that takes a lot of planning and DC decided to not focus on it.
So they basically pulled an emerald twilight with Wally. No wonder why fans hate this
yup that's right
HIC was the worst thing I’ve read in a long time. Not only is the continuity messed up but it has uncharacteristic actions and bad dialogue. Although the message is to get help; HIC further pushes the negative stigma that those people are an extreme danger to society and themselves. It does more harm than good imo.
I feel like King is a one trick pony that does the same trick less and less well every time. And yes anything can be fixed at any time in comics but it’s just cheapening the quality of something impactful.
I’m really glad to see people speaking their grievances on HIC and DC and don’t think it should be considered hate but more of a warning for them to get it together. It’s easy to become jaded and not care but as reviewers or general fans, we need to care. Comics save lives; as do music, film and other forms of art. Like you said, how many people dropped this book before Superman’s speech?
Comics Misexplained I fought as long and as hard as I could to keep going, but after Superman’s speech I was done.
I just wanted to see how this ended. And since that's done.....
(Puts all issues of HIC in the dumpster) good bye and good riddance.
HiC also says that if I open up about my problems to a therapist, I risk them being exposed to the whole world because somebody ELSE made the choice for me that I'd be better off with my personal business being splattered across the headlines. And this is meant to.....encourage people to open up about mental health?
I know this has been said before but despite what tom king intended this book moreso represents the death of all the good will that rebirth got them
Well, there's always a third coming
megamonmon agreed
Honestly, I would have just preferred it if they left Wally dead ☹️ making him a killer is worse than him being dead.
Tom probably should have went the indie with the story and focused on soldiers or a Unit of superpowered soldiers and told this story.
The story probably would have worked better if it focused on a team like challengers of the Unknown and made the story more intimate.
or even give him all of the new gods and have orion dealing with this problem
Bottom line, Tom King doesn't have a firm grasp on any of these characters. He doesn't understand any of them involved in this story. That's why it's been an utter mess
I’m glad that you didn’t just go on a huge rant and approached this with common sense. It really sucks what editorial did to this book. It was never meant to be a murder mystery and it shows. When King pitched this book, it wasn’t meant as an event book but a book that explored difficult topics with absolute sincerity. It’s so clear that this was changed to Identity Crisis 2.0.
I think DC editorial need a shake up (or at least someone keeping Didio in check).
KidSnivy96 I agree dc editorial really needs to a major overhaul or at least get rid of dan didio and his bullshit and just keep Geoff Johns in charge of dc comics.
Tevya Smolka I thought johns was already the creative director alongside jim lee. was their an editorial change after rebirth?
@@CAKECO. unfortunately after Geoff Johns stepped down creative director Dan didito came way back in and ruined everything and made heroes in crisis to get rid of wally west my flash for bullshit.
If the moral of this story was that you should talk about your problems, then I'd say Unstoppable Wasp 4 and 5 did this better in 2 issues, then heroes I'm crisis did in 9.
Amen.
Finally, if you want me to feel "You're not alone" message; please actually focus on it for more than 2 issues (especially the LAST 2 issues).
agreed
Exactly. He has good ideas but i dont know if its experience or actual ability but the man needs to work on hes writing skills a little bit more
ablo show yeah that’s true damn it this sucks
From what I heard, Tom King had a premise and then DC played mad libs with the characters. Instead of writing a story based on the characters, they wrote a story then forced characters into it. No wonder it was garbage
I'm so sorry, but I completely disagree with your argument about the "good intentions" of this comic book. There aren't any. Think about it, this story says that people who are dealing with PTSD and Depression are dangerous, that even when they are looking for help, in a facility made to help people deal with those issues, that they can have an "episode" and just murder everyone, and it's better just to take them completely out of society and keep locked up in solitary confinement.
I really don't understand the point of telling a story that send a message like that. Raymond Chandler wrote the script for Blue Dahlia specially to talk about PTSD and his original ending was about how soldiers were dealing with something like PTSD and that they needed help. But Heroes in Crisis is totally different, Wally was getting help, and he murdered everybody and the solution? Solitary in Jail.
I might be wrong, but that is a totally messed up message to send, specially with the US and the amount of the veterans dealing with PTSD and Depression today.
I'm sorry, but I don't think the writer had any good intentions, and if he did, he totally dropped the ball there.
You know what they say about the Road to Hell...
....the tolls are a motherfucker?
Having characters say and do things that they would never do, even at their lowest points, is character assassination because it confirms lies about who these characters are. The message cannot overshadow the botch job of WRITING that attempted to get to it. When the history is written incorrectly, when the dialogue is bad, and when the actions are out of character, the character being used to demonstrate it all is being degraded because that stuff will stick to them in future portrayals. Wally West and Roy Harper have been through stories that brought them lower than this and they still overcame and never went to these lows. Before this story, no one would say Wally was capable of any of this, including the accidental deaths, because the Speedforce doesn't work that way. The priorities and thought processes he was shown with in this are nothing like him. Taking away the impacts of this story from everything involved as soon as possible would have been for the best because this story makes everything it touches worse. Unfortunately we're a year later and some of this crap is still around. Hopefully Death Metal can fully erase this awful story like New 52 and Rebirth erased Identity Crisis.
Lastly, making the alleged intentions more important than the unintended messages or at least letting them dampen the massive flaws of the storytelling makes no sense to me personally. That's the justification behind Cuties, and it's disgusting to watch children or heroic ideals be defiled because some writer or producer thought the positive message would protect them from criticism. If we were supposed to believe that the trauma Wally has experienced didn't make him less good, then he would have done something actually heroic in this series. He is the deluded villain who thought they were the good guy, as far as this story was concerned. And on the topic of King's intentions, he would have had Wally deliberately fire off machine guns in Sanctuary at one point before being forced to change the story.
“If Everything Happens, Nothing Happened” - Syndrome
All Star Superman was written well and it explored the vulnerability of a superhero.
I would speculate that too many editorial mandates regarding details in the story.
Why did any hero have to die to get to the idea of compassion and commiseration?
The soldier angle makes the whole story seem to surround PTSD and friendly fire.
And Roy, who was a heroine addict, really should have more to him in this type of story.
Maybe it should have been a more personal piece and not include so many super folks.
You took a nice, sympathetic view to this series, Thorgi. Good for you.
The Black Label idea actually fixes most of the problems people have with this story.
If only the higher ups at DC had the same common sense that their fanbase does.
I completely agree about King. When left to his own devices he craft amazing stories but the higher ups influencing his stories negatively affects what he puts out.
I've stopped paying attention to DC continuity anymore its a mess.
Id be more specific and say the closer his stories get to continuity and big characters the worse his work is. Vision and mister miracle were allowed to do their own thing with minor characters but his batman and heroes in crisis stand as his more controversial work
@@megamonmon of course editorial would limit him much more on those.
@@balkarzar Sure but DC editorial didnt write the book, it was still him. DC didnt tell him to write the characters badly, that was also still him.
Never judge a peice of art on its intention. The idea of the painting is not the painting.
ablo show Painting comparison doesn’t work in this case because there isn’t just one artist. This is product with multiple people control where it goes and the editorial can change it to whatever they want.
@@ricardorios2355 yeah but he still wrote the lion share of the work. No ones complaining about the art or the letering or the sfx they are complaining about the actual writen content of the book. The writing is the peice of the whole that is failing and while hes ideas were good hes actual ability to write and present the unfolding events was lacking. The painting looked great in hes head but he couldnt make it look right to everybody else.Intentions dont mean squat if executions are bad. Another example is when a 3rd grader tried to explain a book on quantum physics. Even if he understands it hes ability to communicate hes knowledge is too infantile to actually get across anything anybody understands. Mr King was just not readyvto write the book and the editors should have picked up on this.
ablo show Tom King had a book already but editorial wanted to make it an event. Tom King is an employee and has to do what editorial tells him to do. He wanted a book that explored PTSD and editorial told him to make it into Identity Crisis 2.0. At the end of the day, Tom King has to stand by the company on their decision because they are the boss.
@@ricardorios2355 An admirable sentiment that ignores a big, gaping problem: King fucked up his job here. Maybe that's due to editorial or publishing letting him down. Maybe it's because he's lacking the right chops to make a story like this work. But his name on the final product so he gets majority share of the blame.
@@ricardorios2355 yeah to an extent editorial is to blame. I mean giving tom king something this big to do is kindcof mad. i dont know if he was ready
You sound drained Professor, hope next time you and your wife go to the movies you two enjoy yourself.
Thank you, for what you said about hate among RUclips channels.
I think there are a lot of problems in modern comics, but the industry of contempt that has sprung up makes me feel like a man without a country, it just feels so demoralizing towards the hobby as a whole. Is this what we have become?
"It doesn't mean they're less than what they were before"
Errrr...no, Professor. After everything he did, yes. Wally is less than who he was before this started. He is now SO much less than who he was. It doesn't matter what the intent was because they fumbled the moral from the very beginning. Yes. They ruined Wally West.
As someone who hated this book since issue 1, one thing I can say is that it succeeded in having everyone talk about ptsd in heroes/soliders, which I guess is what King wanted.
It did? I largely saw saw people talking about how wally has been completely ruined.
I think the poor execution actually detracted from the message. Most reviews and feedback I’ve read were focused on the character assassination of Wally.
This was the best and more nuanced HIC review I found by far, thanks a lot for the care you put into it!
I noticed the channel hasn't been updated for a while.. are there plans for it to come back? Hope you and your loved ones are doing well
DC Editorial is A joke right now.
It has been for a long time, unfortunately
Wally, why!!!!!! Why DC, why do you have to do this to Wally, let Wally be happy with his kids and wife!!!
Didio hate Wally. he is Barry fanboy. fuck him.
@@mocca3633 he's not a Barry fanboy. That would be Geoff Johns who also likes Wally alot. Dio literally just had the idea of sidekicks and while he seems okay with the third generation like Tim Drake and Bart Allen.
He hates the hell out of the first generation of sidekicks like Dick and Wally, it sure if he ever gave s reason why
@@texcorps9432 you mean like Roy Harper? >_> Damn it Didio!
Spinysky Studio Because to Dan DiDio no Hero should have a happy personal life.
@@ryancarson6962 must of been why he and the heads as DC let Bendis take over Superman and write Lois and John out of his life for stupid reasons than bring them back as such an inconsistent family
Heroes in Crisis lead to some of my favorite issues of Willaimson's Flash run. The other characters dealing with Wally's death actually helped me cope with the recent suicide of one of my best friends. I saw how characters like Barry and Iris grieved, and it felt real and good to know that the way I grieve is normal. That I'm not alone. So, t the very least, HiC gave me that.
I think the biggest mistake here is adding in the murder thread, it seems to link to all the big problems in Heroes in Crisis.
It wouldnt have solved the mischaracterisation completely but yeah I agree
KidSnivy96 yup indeed and frankly I think the murder mystery should’ve been taken out period.
NOTE: I have nothing against the creators of this story. Only the story itself. Here's why:
The biggest problem this story, in my opinion, is its lack of consistency. This story is, at its core, a character study disguised as a murder mystery. But, instead of studying the characters as they are, their personalities are changed to fit King's ends. This story is steeped in me suspending my belief for three ideas: 1) Wally West is depressed and has been for a few years, despite all evidence to the contrary ; 2) Booster Gold, Harley, Batgirl, and Blue Beetle are total douchebags who only care about themselves; 3) time travel can work as described in the way it needs to. All three of these points fail upon the slightest bit of critical thinking.
1) While yes, Wally West was emotionally destroyed by Zoom's revelation in Flash War that Wally had lost his family because of Barry's Flashpoint, there were no signs of him being so broken that he was losing control of his actions and morals. He was frustrated at Barry for going back in time and ruining his life, and even more frustrated that Barry refused to help him fix it. But, Wally was able to keep his emotions in check to defeat Zoom, something that surprised the villain. TLDR, there was nothing in Wally's character that could've shown him to be capable of this.
2) This story is entrenched in continuity, some of it pre-Flashpoint. This continuity is supposed to inform why the characters are being written the way they are. Here, it only further baffles me. An example: There are references to Geoff Johns' Booster Gold run (the one where we established that Booster only pretends to be an idiot. In reality, he's probably one of the most selfless people in the DCU). Yet, King seems to only remember one or two events that happened in that run, not the character building that Booster underwent. He didn't kill Ted or betray him, as this story would have you believe. No, Booster Gold tried over and over and over again to save Ted. Even if Booster pulls Ted out of time and brings him to the present, he gets killed nonetheless. It's as if Ted's death is something that needs to happen. Finally, Ted asks Booster to stop and let him die, as his death will allow for countless others to live. Booster Gold would continue to be characterized like this until Tom King got his hands on him, and completely disregarded that character. King does this a lot: take a character and redefine their personality. But, it doesn't work in an extended universe where the character has been consistently characterized a certain way for years, then does a 180° because King doesn't understand the character. If you want a character to change, then do it through story.
3) Flash War was the big lead into this event. In it, time is broken by Wally and Barry's fight. Thus, nobody can travel through time, be it through devices or the speed force. Even Citizen Cold, a time traveler, is trapped in our time. At the end of Flash War, Wally goes to Sanctuary, meaning that Heroes in Crisis takes place at a time when time still can't be traveled through. A month or two later in an event that was hinged on Joshua Williamson's Flash War, Tom King ends the story by saying "Wally and Booster traveled through time". What?
It's like Tom King wants to reference continuity, but not take the time to characterize accordingly. And in a character study, that is awful.
I totally forgot that time travel is currently impossible right not. The continuity or I guess the lack of structure in their current continuity is really starting to hurt man.
@@christianhayward89 I know, right? I got into DC again because of Rebirth. During those first two years, it felt like everything was so connected. Now, I'm seeing it fall apart because of poor management, and it's just depressing. Hopefully, the events of Doomsday Clock will force DC to get their act together.
There nothing wrong with a person coming in saying this is how I would write that story. That just part of criticism
I expected some critical assessment of the sanctuary therapy program in the last issue, the anonimity and isolation was counterproductive, would have been cool if we at least saw group tal sessions instead of the continuation of the confession tapes things, group sessions would've been much more in line with sharing and reaching out to others.
I've been waiting to hear from you on this. The intentions WERE good...but that is what the road to hell is paved with, and it is where Dan Didio and Tom King are trying to send Wally West.
Some of the characters killed were growing into decent characters pre new 52 and we're tossed aside after. I loved tattooed man (Ink) from his stint in Titans with Roy Harper and Deathstroke. Many of my favorite 2nd & 3rd tier characters never recovered from that travesty.
My fave version of the Tattooed Man will always be the one in Vertigo's Skin Graft.
Am I the only one who heard the intro music and got sad because they remembered SBF?
Well, on that note, RIP Wally West, too, I guess.
And yeah I saw the video, but for me personally I can't get past the idea that this was just too obviously a way for certain people to get rid of the character.
43:45 They kind of did something like that in Doomsday Clock #10 (though it was mostly focused on Superman).
21:35 - 22:00 I'm sad we live in a time this need to be said
Thorgy . This series in no way addressed the reality of PTSD. I'm a psych RN for 16 years and this is not the way you treat people with PTSD and suicide. DC totally dropped the ball on this.
If you don't mind me asking, can you recommend any links to folks dealing with those issues?
I am the first one here? Cool!
Hey Prof. Thorgi! From Southern CA!
The first 8 minutes and 30 seconds earned you a new sub.
Didn't know about the death threats that messed up(I love nick Spencer Spider-Man , the immortal hulk and DCEASE show the love people #SHOWLOVE #TellACREATOR
it is but i'm not surprised people did that tbh
Yeah I hate Tom King's writing, but I wouldn't wish ill will on him.
It might have worked if only Wally “died” like he just faked his death and went into hiding because of the pain from everything going on
excellent video, way to put things in perspective
Hey, I did my homework. I thanked Neil Gaiman for his many amazing works. I also want to thank you for keeping your channel positive. It is why I follow and watch your videos instead of other comic youtubers. We live in an angry hateful world. We need more people to try to support positivity.
Also...Superman and Lois remember the other timeline that Wally is from and HE KNOWS THAT because he spoke with Clark about it, so...how was he alone?
Tom King at best is self indulgently foisting his depression onto the characters he writes (and the readers by extension) and at worst is engaging in subversion and demoralization which entirely fits his CIA background.
Best case makes more sense.
It's healthy to be angry, but to the point of murdering someone over fictional characters, there's definitely somthing wrong with you. But yeah, the book sucks. I have fear for his bat/cat mini-series. But we'll just have to wait and see. Thanks for the vid thorgi. (Also could you talk about last knight by snyder for comic class, please?) Now if you excuse me, gotta do my thorgi hw for creator i love and spread some positively. Please do the same for whoever is reading this. Thanks 😏
Aaron I agree and I will #SpreadPosativity. But yeah the murder mystery really through this off. I thought it would end with like batman talking to Wally about failing to save Jason, superman losing original supergirl. Like lost and sadness and talking about it in a meaningful way.
Really respect your attempt to keep a positive tone. However, intent in no way negates affect. As a person who battles mental illness and is a trauma survivor I found this series to be in poor taste.
Hope you're making progress on your issues. Signed, a fellow trauma survivor.
Why are people making death threats. I was reading his Batman run and didn't like it. So, I stopped reading it. People have lost there minds. I'm a big Batman fan, but I'm not going to go on social media and start threatening writers because I don't like what they are doing. Just stop buying the book.
I'd put it down to possessiveness. For some fans, they get attached so hard to a character that they act like they alone have the right to dictate said character's fate. It's sad that Stephen King's novel Misery remains an extreme but accurate illustration of this mentality in action.
Welcome to the internet where death threats are as common as hellos
Hope everyone else goes out and spreads some positivity. Such a good idea.
Great video, looks like Catharsis, I'm going through the same.
I absolutely LOVED DC rebirth. And this series killed me. Almost every ending tom king brings gets me so upset and just want to be done with him.
I still read shazam and I still read aquaman and so many other books. But I used to pick up titans and batman and superma first. Now I avoid them like the plague
I feel like dc is turning into just a bunch of fanfiction about itself ijs
Or it's reverting to a nastier version of the gonzo continuity it used to have in the 1950s, now mixed with edgelord nonsense.
I went to Twitter and told Tom King how much I loved HiC issue 9. It made me cry. That you're not alone message is quite powerful for anyone dealing with depression 💜💜💜
Wow in 7:32 you just explained the method of Fox News and MSNBC use to keep viewers.
I wish that thunderstorm would come here.
I really feel for all those DC fans who have to deal with shit like this, because it's not bad enough that DC can't keep ground with a single movie anymore, they have to scalpel potentially good stories for their heroes because of people behind the scenes letting their personal feelings getting in the way. i don't read Marvel or DC comics just because of this, knowing that for every good writer, someone's going to come in and fuck it all up. And from what I'm hearing, DC really isn't doing their material any justice by constantly changing shit. The amount of people ranting about the Supergirl comic...whoo boy.
Its better to just pick up runs considered good than week to week if thats the case
I couldn't agree more with your points on Heroes In Crisis, your idea about how HIC could have been delivered, and your feelings how DC is running there current books. You're 100% correct on the changes at DC and how things dont make sense again. I feel like it started with an event that was heavy and made of strong material and then got exacerbated when that other writer came in, the one from Marvel. Sigh... such is comics, I guess
Man you hit it right on the head about why I really have had such a hard time really caring about DC right now. It just seems like since if they dont care why should I? I love the DCU, but its like you said if there are just no rules and no one cares then it just killed my interest in most books.
You know what they say about the road to Hell....
Not a big comic reader, so I have to ask...does Dan DiDio hate Wally? The character had a lot of devoted fans from his old Flash series, he was on the Justice League animated series, and it was a good character development from what I did read...
This? Everything since the New 52 and now this? I just can’t shake the feeling DiDio hates Wally.
Hmm, actually... I believe it is "the devil is in the eggs"
Also I feel King did a poor job at representing PTSD
True
@19:40 Thank GOD someone said it! I agree that the message is well intended but executed HORRIBLY. Ultimately it's great that Wally is still going to work on himself and not give up. Imagine telling that to the families of the other heroes that were killed: "Your son/daughter/husband/wife/etc was accidentally killed by another one of our heroes. But fret not!! While your loved one is still dead, their accidental killer is going to keep working on themself. So yeah!"
....like the hell?!
Yeah this entire event was really bad and really awful and ruined my flash Wally west
Hopefully wally finds redemption in another book.....by a different writer.(RIP classic/rebirth wally and arsenal).
@@mr.no-to-body8121 i certainly hope so because i miss my wally west flash being a hero instead of him now being a villian who frames his own friends because he messed up.
But hey Bro before Heroes
This story triggered me in a deep way. Multiple ways. I'm still scowling HARD when I hear the book's title.
@@jamcalx same here and it breaks my heart that my favorite speedster wally west had to get screwed over for bullshit and the way this story handled the state of mental health is really awful and just messed up that it isn't even funny.
Roy Harper is still dead
It's more than that it felt like this whole series was DC's attempt to "cut bait and run" by eliminating characters who were not selling books, DC's PoV is if one character that hasn't been relevant for a LOOOOOOOONG time has to die along the way then so be so be it for us to accomplish this.
I dont even read DC comics, just wanted to see what is all the talk about, but I have to comment on the first part rant, because I totally agree. I have been keeping myself away from the alot of the pop culture fandoms because it seems that every week there is something to be angry about. Is really sad that we still have to hear about writers and creators receiving death threats for the stupidest reasons and see a very loud part of the fanbase acting like children. It gives people who think like Bill Maher all the more reasoning to keep thinking like that.
Somehow, I think that DC either is slowing killing itself or already has, as controversial as that sounds, with what the Professor said, this feels like DC is in a denial stage
Whereas its fanbase has hit the anger phase.
Johnathon Haney Pretty much
If its crap...voice it, if its good say it.😄👍
A fellow comic reader and I had a joke about DC back in the 1990s. To wit, the universe reboots like Crisis On Infinite Earths and Zero Hour were the equivalent of an old person trying to convince readers that they were still young and hip with plastic surgery. I think that they may have finally overdone said surgery on this one.
I wish I never knew rebirth.
Becaude the First one. With Wally returning and crying? Hell, I cried too. It was so incredible, so promissing, so wholesome.
Sure, I was prepared for deaths, even him. Sure, i didn't like Wallace at first, but he grew on me. A New flash family... Lets Go.
And them... HEROES IN CRISIS...
NO.
NO... NO... NO...
this netorare history... Why destroy?
Dude that mixture screwed with me. It pushed so many stories around changed super girls whole story and so much other stuff. If anyone didnt read that superman story then no one would know who the ladies at the DOD.
It's really sad that you've hit the "not care" rock bottom THorgi. Thats the worst thing you can hit for a story.
You know what? I just deleted my comment where I was joking about this book, cause now I'm just sad! Could someone just fire Dideo already? Why do all the big DC books have to suck so hard? After Metal everything started to go so wrong! The wedding, Titans starting to suck, John Kennt aging seven years Green Arrow now hating the Justice league. There is only one good ongoing book right now and that is JL by Snyder, maybe JL Dark. What happens if over the last year?
Building A Fanbase Around Anger: A Guide by Dan Slott and Dan Didio
I'm currently enjoying the current runs with Teen Titans, Titans, and Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps. Especially the current stuff with Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps involving the White Lantern Corps I'm hoping for more storylines further explaining the White Lantern Corps like what their oath is, are there any rules that Kyle has put to keep them from abusing their power rings including the fact they have the power of the entire emotional spectrum.
So having read the awesome Doomsday clock. Is Dr. MANHATTAN going to fix this mess? Is that why they delayed both comics to come out at the same time? I mean Wally's flash emblem was glowing blue energy in the last panel? Was it MANHATTAN messing with the time line. Cause they showed Wally trying to stop him . I'm just so confused now.
I think the big death wasn't Roy it's Poison Ivy, not saying Roy wasn't important but they killed one of Batman's major antagonists, and yes Wally did bring her back but Ivy isn't the same character she was before her death Ivy's not even human anymore she's now a plant creature like Swamp Thing, that's going to have ramifications for years to come
Until they inevitably retcon it
They’ve been hinting at her taking over for Swamp Thing for awhile now. Think the last time it was mentioned was in Damage. 🤔
For me, its not the fact that he killed those people, every hero has their fuck ups on the job (including Batman); Its what he did after that. Him (mistakenly or unintentionally) framing Harley Quinn and Booster Gold and allowing them to be hunted by the Justice League. That part of the story is where it soured for me.
And then Doomsday Clock comes out and paints Wally as a symbol of hope alongside superman
Also I am starting to agree that nothing matters with DC comics anymore because ever since Dan didito got back in charge everything is falling apart which is the last thing i wanted to happen also i blame bendis and his crap too because my god he has missed the boat with superman and action comics and destroyed the continuity within his books, for example like you said young justice tim drake remembering Conner Kent superboy and the rest of his old team how did zatana know about tim drake mystery also Stephanie brown spoiler father being alive again when did that happen answer we don't know its so annoying but that's just my opinion, also I am still pissed off that another one of my favorite characters Jon Kent superboy is still aged up for no damn Reason just for bullshit.
I agree 100% dood. Life for dc isn't all bad for some books. But dang, bendis, king, and dan didio just ruined it.
@@mr.no-to-body8121 i can agree with that in fact one of my all time favorite series i am currently reading is Adventures of the super sons by Peter J tomasi which continues my favorite series the super sons with Both young 10 year old jon kent superboy and Damian wayne having fun taking down this evil group called the gang.
@@TevyaSmolka, sounds awsome, i haven't been reading it cause of money management, but am definitely pick up the trade when it comes out.
Mr. No-to-body indeed and I can understand that and i am hoping you do get to pick it up in trade because that entire series has been tons of fun. :)
Thing is wally still killed all these heroes like da fuck this is character assassination for him and I don’t see how he can come back from this unless there is a world reset
I think the opinion that how Wally went about it wasn't well crafted or executed efficiently is what makes the action and scenario more real in the fact that it was clumsy and unorganized just like how someone having those feelings would while its happening.
But I do agree that when it comes to that kind of writing and using superheroes, it is a cake and eat it too thing. Good video.
Question: after this mess of a story, did they put Wally in a mental hospital or did they send him to jail? Everything in this is stupid but I wonder if they actually going to remember to try to help wally after his breakdown.
The biggest failure of the ending is that the last thing we see is Wally, imprisoned and alone, after an issue discussing the importance of a Support System as opposed to a blank wall like Sanctuary's AI regurgitated to him that was just reinstated without any changes to the system.
The ending monologue should have been him talking to Barry, at last.
I very much believe that HiC was meant to be something completely different.
Originally, King talked about how a single death was the inciting incident, (It's even reflected in Issue 1's cover), and he's had countless interviews on how Sanctuary functioned. There was that whole SDCC thing where folks went on a boat that simulated the Sanctuary program. The confessionals were supposed to be a "Final Step" of sorts, where you would unmask yourself if you wished. Sanctuary Buttons were supposed to appear in other books, which those who went through the program were given as a token to show they weren't alone.
Not only is the use of the confessionals unclear in the series, the death count inflated immensely and you don't get a grasp on just how many were killed until much later. The events of the crime are just as vague; you can't tell a murder mystery story where you don't know who the victims are, or how they were killed.
It clearly was never intended to be something to "solve". It was something to be exposited.
What I believe was lost in translation was the scale of the conflict; the Leak angle was hasteful and framed as if it was going to unmask everyone, when it was sort of dropped half-heartedly. The trinity bares almost no bearing in the book; Diana has the sole ability to discern lies, and it's decided it doesn't matter. The last issue zeroes in on a theme pretty well, but it doesn't fit with the rest of the series or the ending. The confessionals in 9 turn jokey and flanderized, removing the empathy that was being built in their prior usage (which I often disliked regardless since they either didn't offer new information the the plot, or were jarring with the rest of the subject matter.)
It just didn't coalesce. Accidentally killing people isn't as equally bad as leaking sensitive information to the press. It should have ended on actual civilians doing confessionals at least would be a proof that the confessional leak had the intended effect, rather than appearing as if nothing's really different.
On another note, the Harley and Booster POV issues were always a part of the book, but they were originally "Specials" on break months. They were just folded into the main book since it's less confusing.
More evidence that the book was something else before it was shifted by editorial, was the solicitations and rejected covers such as the Solicits implying the Sanctuary AI going rogue, Bruce and Barry investigating the Sanctuary premises, and Superman fighting Booster. There was a cover for Roy implying one of said Specials had him in the spotlight rather than Gnaark.
That said, The Gift was originally solicited as The Travelers, about Booster needing Batman and Catwoman's help to stop himself from stopping himself from altering their first meeting, but it was a guise to hide the actual arc's premise. It could just be a red herring instead of editorial meddling.
It's such a shame too. I got so excited when a lonely place of living and then supersons of tomorrow came out. I couldn't wait to see how they would effect the continuity and be explained. This is what we're getting now. Random tidbits taken from all over dc history that, while no doubt awesome too call back to, simply don't make sense in today's continuity. Like Ted kord talking about being betrayed by max lord. When the hell did that happen, why is he still alive. Man I'm hella confused
Wally messed up bodies post-mortem and framed others for his crime! How the fudge is that forgivable?!
Pause it at 2:54. It's amazing.
Heroes in Crisis made me Cry, Sis.
Because it was bad or for just existing?
Message = Good. Execution = Bad. That is a fair and not harsh critique.
Is there any way heroes in crisis can be outside continuity??
TOM KING put out his message but it was in a comic book with Super Heroes, Super heroes Can't have problem like this, first cause their Not a Soldier, Second They can't be Heroes, if their suffering mental illness, This is like sitting in alcoholics Anonymous meeting ,you don't kill off other alcoholics just because their there. They don't feel your pain, worst Nobody can't catch the Flash cause it not the same Flash from the future? So when we see Wally Next ,Everything is all good now, he's "FIX" he can go back being a super hero ,a side kick, Everybody loves him and Validates him.
Jose Bracero I disagree with the notion that Superheroes can’t have these problems because Jessica Cruz has issues like this and she’s a hero, though there’s a line where if a hero is SO unstable that they can just snap and their powers kill everyone next to them then they shouldn’t have powers or continue being Superheroes, because that’s a pretty scary situation, knowing that if this one hero snaps he could accidentally kill people on mass. That’s a horrifying reality, not a heartwarming moment.
I'm late, but we need so much more positivity...it's desperately needed...
I think I love how you've got your cup with you throughout this vid. It gives it even more of "a guy talking to his mates about a comic" vibe that I love about your comic class videos.
As far as HiC goes...I'm just disappointed. Doomsday Clock is the big wow comic that everyone seems to have fallen in love with but if you sat down and really thought over what Dr. M would do in the DC verse, practically everyone who knows anything about the character's apathy towards humanity could have predicted all the big beats to the story. Why is this a problem? Because it seems like Doomsday Clock is the Sword of Damocles hanging over the heads of almost everything DC-related lately. That and the potential end of the multiverse (Again).
And Manhatten being the one who messed with the timestream but not completely enough so we have bleed-through is ultimately what set this story off. If the DC-verse had continued and Wally's family got killed or at least critically hurt to where he had a nervous breakdown, put into Sanctuary and then these events happened, it would have actually mattered more to me. Instead, I come away wondering if any of it matters if we're heading for a reset.
And then Professor Zoom went and said "I did it"
And this is the main reason why most of my pull-list is independent for decisions like this that DC and Marvel at times do to their choices.
When this event first started for me I thought okay this is intriguing but nearly halfway it start to get real bad for me.
Now I know there's people that enjoyed this event and let me just say I am not taking this away from you. If you like this event go ahead and praise it as much as you want. But for me personally I had too many problems with this event way too many problems. The marketing for this series just threw me off because I thought we were going to get an inside look at superheroes after they deal with traumatic events in their life and trying to progress and heal from those events. Even seeing like characters baby like Wonder Woman how she deals with all that she deals with with all her Villain the stuff that the traumatic events of her life and how it affects our relationship is Steve Trevor and the rest of the teeth of the Justice or Batman or Superman. And that the series would be like they got a problem and their bedding to it and then the rest of the series would be them fighting ways of healing and blue all of their lies you keep on doing that they do.
But that's not what we got we got a murder mystery and basically a dismantling of a legendary hero that was like this is a waste of time.
Nobody at Sanctuary was even in any level of process of body ways of coming to terms with that trouble that's the reason why they were there. If fighting a way to heal and move past it was just basically the patients diagnosing themselves that made no sense to me.
And now let me just say that this I know my would a superhero goes bad. let me just say that when a character turns evil eye valve one if it's done right and it's taking its time to set it up and build up to the moment.
But for me personally I'm late this was way too quick for Wally West. And why choose Wally West to go evil. And then covered up a blade to other characters Booster Gold and Harley Quinn for the crime.
And then white commit suicide that made no sense.
Where Wally West still had his kids somewhere in the speed force or wherever his kids are being held.
Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's not possible for someone like Wally to snap but the way you just came off it just it made no logical sense.
The reason to it all it's not like his family was dead it's just needed to remember it.
I mean Wally West was a Legacy character that took over the mantle of The Flash for 20 years. For a lot of us brought up he was our Flash some of the most highly acclaimed last stories Rogue Woodberry die up until very taped back most of those stories either he was on the Justice League or whatever was with Wally West.
And DC does him dirty
Really!
And I'm a guy that enjoys identity crisis. Despite every what big bad at that affect I still enjoyed that story but this was like this made no logical sense whatsoever mostly the second issue and up they have Batgirl act out of character out of nowhere. Leaving Harley Quinn that she didn't say she killed those people at sanctuary without any level of proof.
Like come on now real like this this blows my mind how bad the story for me.
And like I said get that you like the story that's fine but this story has way too many problems way too many problems too many characters are acting out of character for me.
Did Lois Lane I have all the information from sanctuary and like Superman just tells the Justice League after Lois Lane release the information like for real.
there's a lot of Heroes that didn't want their personal business out there like that and you just release it not even Superman was acting the way he was why didn't you just tell the Batman and Wonder Woman ahead of time so they can get ahead of this entire thing before it came to the media's attention.
It just showed me Superman really doesn't respect his peers and the thing.
And I know what you're thinking right now but David Batman is the very things in the past is that a betrayed the other members of the Justice League.
and I would say to you except for a few occasions both of time what he did it you can completely understand why he did what he did you can most of the time reason with it and you and you could actually agree why you did it this was one of those times was Superman made this decision and make no sense.
It wasn't even at best a necessary evil what Superman just did
"Convoluted" is a good word for it.
I want to introduce something about the superhero world, this Sanctuary.
Then editorial wants these characters to jump in and make the story less dismal - like a mystery.
And then we will take time for a nod at the abuses heaped on Wally West post Barry Allen return.
And then I have a story about PTSD.
I don't know what started the story, but it just was clear and the story wasn't clean cut.
Wally did a lot of wrong - killer, traitor and dishonored by the end. This is a terrible direction to take when you are trying to create sympathy for PTSD.
As I said, Morrison had the moment in All Star Superman with the jumper contemplating suicide. It was small, but it was powerful. AS Supes - 10.
Tom King could have focused completely on Wally. The mystery could have been "Who killed Wally West?" Speed Force "tears" Wally West apart and that relates to his nervous breakdown. I think he had something but other factors got in the way.
A shame.
Who's the Green Lantern that died?
I like the content you make