The worst video I’ve ever made: ‘shonen vs seinen.’
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- Опубликовано: 7 мар 2023
- Edit: As this video is a year old, I now feel comfortable admitting that no research went into it, it is fundamentally a highly subjective and opinionated rant. I no longer hold these views as they are stupid. -(14/03/24)
In this video I confront the Shonen VS Seinen problem and how Seinen seems to produce higher quality anime and manga than the average Shonen.
Edit: I said I read Vinland Saga in 2022, it was 2021. That's been bugging me.
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So the role of Gojo isn’t necessarily to be a teacher. It’s to be the pinnacle of power for the jujutsu world. He only chooses students he sees potential in and who are already strong in their own right because his character isn’t meant to be a teacher but rather the pillar that keeps the world from going to shit. The moment Satoru Gojo, the strongest sorcerer in existence, is sealed away, the system collapses, the people under his protection are left to fend for themselves, they’re forced to either thrive or die. So when you think of Gojo in a shallow way of just the cool teacher, you’re choosing to ignore what his character is meant to represent.
So he’s just there to fight bad guys. He did say that in his video LMAO
@@hotababa6306 but he said it in the context of him being a horrible teacher who was supposed to be fitting in the teacher role but doesnt do it properly and rather is just there to fight the bad guys which in part he is but he wasnt there to be fitted in the teacher trope as his main characterization anyways.
Im pretty sure he didnt read the manga or hes just not up to date with it
@@hotababa6306 not necessarily, gojo doesnt really fight a lot, hes more of barrier thats there to keep everything involved in the jujutsu world restricted, everyone fears him, theres many dangerous people in the jujutsu world, but no one wants to act because gojo is there, he keeps the balance of everything, he got sealed and all the people in japan got involved in a battle royale with ancient sorcerers, new sorcerers and special grade curses and soldiers from all over the world.
@@hotababa6306 me when if a had no reading comprehension and don’t understand the manga
Shonen is weird, I think it comes from the fundamental production process of new serializations in jump, look as CSM and JJK specifically. The way they start is like all other Shonen, we can use Demonslayer as a benchmark for what that formula looks like. But most action Shonen start with MC joining supernatural combat force, gaining a wacky ensemble of characters they are absolutely loyal to, MC has some sort of hidden power thats super op, Mc goes on to become jesus of their verse. The thing about the two series I mentioned is that while they start the same, they both go down pretty alternate paths, by the end CSM qualifies more as melodrama than shonen, and as for JJK while I think its more traditional shonen. It handles its escalation and villains stellar imo, I would argue it adds on to a preexisting formula. Like for example, the main character can't solve every problem, in fact many of the side characters stand over Yuji in this aspect. And instead of progressive arcs with central villains that don't have a lot to do with each other JJk's narrative is driven by the villains in much more of an overarching escalation. In fact I'd argue the villains competency to consistently steer situations into their favor is the best part, the villains win too in this series.
All in all, I think the quality of shonen often looks the same because when a new series is made, they have to maintain popularity over buildup for later payoffs, therefore the beginnings of a lot of these series play much more into tropes and short term payoffs before they become established enough to take creative risk.
You can say the same abt senine MC just being edgy teens💀Anways i do agree with that claim that you made lol but OP the best shounene out there
berserk fanboy spotted, opinion rejected, i aint reading ur grown ass redditor speech, stop shaming other genres, you dont know anything about shonen 😂😂 also vinland saga and vagabond >>>>>>>> berserk
A Poor understanding of Shonen at best. The Video should have been titled: "MHA vs Vinland Saga - Why I hate Shonen". It is an unobjective and uninformed comparison of two genres. Sad.
Well said…even though i hate MHA but that doesn’t mean vinland saga checks all the boxes…it still suffers the same stupid ideological issues that MHA suffers…so i feel like in this video he was trying to showoff his big boy pants by saying seinen is for more mature peopl and shonen is for kids 😅
Yeah this whole video just felt like “shounen is for babies and I’m a big boy who likes edgy seinen” it did not amount to much else and bro has clearly not read jjk
My guy just figured out what subverting a trope is and thinks that alone determines what is good or bad. Glad he likes his big boy seinen pants but he's clearly sniffing it way too hard and completely missing what role characters like Rengoku and Gojo plays in their respective series. I love Vinland and its story telling and I love all the recognition its getting but please, if you're going to shit on shounen then please aim properly or else you'll smudge shit all over your fancy new pants :D
Fr bro really just watched babies first seinen and it blew his mind lol
@@lau_ewo Black clover is a good example of it. I don't need detailed written characters or food for thought themes as sth like Monsters or Berserk. It doesn't really matter as long as the story is entertaining
Seinen and Shounen are not genres. They are demographics. Genre is action, as an example. And there can be Shounen action, Seinen action, Shoujo and Josei action. It can be targeted to specific age and gender, but still can be action. Same goes for romance. Nisekoi is a Shounen romance while A Sign of Affection is a Shoujo romance.
The Problem is not The Genre but the Accessibility for Japanese Children Who Went to Read Manga for Example Take 2 Manga of the Same Genre (Crime) and Same Target (Shonen) Which is Detective Conan and Beastars. Detective Conan is Still appropriate for Kids While Beastars Not
@@stefanoiulli5462 genres based on age demographic is certainly a modern take and not like how it was in the 80-90s, shonen in Japanese is a young protagonist whether it is a young adult or a kid, it didn't matter what kind of material it is aimed for whether for kids or adults, shonen anime like Dragon Ball or Hokuto no Ken had protagonists who were in their youths and there was no classification for which age demographic it is meant for as anime in the 80-90s had no limits for which age it is aimed for, if anything Anime like attack on titan or Vinland Saga can be classified as dark shonen due to their protagonists still being in their youths, Shonen in modern times has been categorised as for kids and young audiences by Western media and in the past it was quite different from what Japanese called it, hell Dragon Ball could be seen as a kids show but it had a lot of adult references which isn't liked by western media and it's audiences, if anything modern shonen has deviated far away from what it was in the past and anime usually had simplistic categories and only now censorship for Western audiences is what changed many genres
yeah, and anime doesn't mean "japanese animation," it means just "animation," yet when western people say anime they mean the first thing, that's how language works, it evolves, shonen might have been a word initially to describe a demographic, but with time it has come to represent a set of tropes, visuals and story structure associated with anime like Dragon Ball and One Piece, i.e. it has become a "genre"
you are only arguing on semantics, whatever the original meaning of the word means, shonen and seinen are undeniably seen as genres and they are associated with two particular styles of anime, you can give them a better name if you want, but everyone knows what he's talking about when he refers to shonen as a genre
@@greyfox4838 Finally, common sense.
@@greyfox4838 gotta love this descriptivist lexicon that we find ourselves fortunate enough to speak ong fr fr 🔥🔥💯💯💯
Agreed with almost 100% of what you'd said. I'd give JJK a little bit more a deep dive though, as while the themes aren't new and it shouldn't take having to read side series/Prequels, they do explain & express it quite well what Gojos motivations are, as well as a few of the main ensemble, atleast in terms of world building/Character arcs I feel it varies it up extremely refreshingly. Idk how far you're into JJK though. I do hope you enjoy it.
Indeed. Gojo is a bit deeper than what he gave him credit for. He’s not the most in-depth but as a character (not a teacher) he’s deeper than what people say.
Yea,what i didn't like about the video is that he watched the movie and 1st season of jjk and just started shittin' on it and comparing it to naruto and my hero academia even tho they treat completely different subjects.
He also stated that Yuji didn't have any development because of the amount of character there is... Proving once again that he didn't read JJK. And for the majority of the video he just started meat riding Vinland Saga et CSM :/
He's right about MHA though. At first I enjoyed it, but lately I've stopped watching it. But I don't blame the creator. I blame rusted Deadlines. Bleach creator ,Kudo, wanted to do so much with the last arc, but was unable to because he was rust. At least now he's making it right with the anime. And it makes sense why he hasn't started on the hell arc yet. He's, probably planning everything out first.
Can anyone tell me if one piece has this problem?
Yeah I think hidden inventory did a lot for gojo character and he has not read it yet
True. His JJK perspectives were driving my up a wall. There’s so much more in JJK than he was giving credit for and yet he was roping it in with the likes of MHA and Naruto. Oh sure Chainsaw man is GREAT but jujutsu Kaisen? Nah man generic shounen. Like dude. Yes, he needs to dive deeper on that one.
Like I hear what you're saying, and in most respects I'd have to agree, but I think a lot of the contention here really just boils down to the difference in the target demographic. The 'world building' (really I think 'tone' was the word you were looking for) in My Hero doesn't necessarily *need* to have dark mature subtext to the way hero society is implemented; in fact the series' entire premise is being a superhero is an everyday job and is relatively mundane and achievable. I myself am trying to put together a story revolving around how the world is going to trying to screw you around even in a world of the supernatural, but it's not like I want every story to be like mine. I couldn't give a shit about My Hero having a light tone to it's overarching story, it offers other things that are plenty valid and digestible for everyone. Do I prefer it to more mature stories? No. But just because I don't prefer it that doesn't mean I think it's a lesser form of the medium. In fact I think in a lot of ways I respect it for trying to be digestable for all audiences; only adults are able to drink wine, but everyone needs to drink water. I don't mind a story maximizing the tropes that it needs to to tell a story with levity as long as it's able to do what it wants to competently. And frankly I think being this scrutinizing in trying to critique something like this is rather far detached from what the actual experience either medium offers, i.e not everything needs to be overthought and sometimes are better left to just be enjoyed, and shonen tropes are just fine on their own and it really matters more on how they're used.
TL;DR: Damn, it's almost as if seinen is designed to target an older and more mature audience. Ain't that wacky?
Every real JJK fan knows that Nanami is the true "teacher trope" in JJK. His story and what he represents constitutes a cold hard lesson about the cruelty of the human existence. His story is much more subtle than the in your face brutality of Vinland Saga but arguably just as profound.
Yes thats what I was thinking when he was considering gojo as a teacher trope
Wouldnt say as profound but nanami is the best character in JJK
@Shady I don't know, man. A story that points out the uncomfortable truth that no matter how disciplined, intelligent, and well-adjusted, and good-natured you are, the world can still find a way to put you through immense suffering... is high up there.
Yet, Despite being aware of this reality, Nanami still encourages Yuji to keep fighting the good fight despite everything.
It's the state of humanity wrapped up in a neat little action shonen.
@@beepist5000 thats really cliche lol
@Shady That's the kinda point. We haven't moved past this cycle as a species. We just kinda spin in a never-ending cycle of false hope and suffering. Though I argue that the interpretation and execution of this idea with the use of a character like Nanami, especially in a shonen, is what makes it unique.
At it's core I think JJK thematically is trying to give a modern perspective on the question of what makes live worth living. Nanami is one of the few characters who understands that all paths lead to suffering, yet he uses his existence to try to ease other people suffering. The irony is that he discovered this truth by living as a normal professional who once devoted his to making as much money to escape his trama.
I don't think I need to tell you about the overwhelming push in society for young people to make as much money as possible by any means necessary with zero concern for adhering to greater principles, or confronting real trama that accumulating in society. The themes and subtle storytelling in JJK are decidedly more mature and relevant for young people to explore than the vast majority of media aimed at young people.
You can’t shit on Kakashi if you only watched 3 episodes, dude is definitely one of the most tragic and well developed characters in all of shounen
Edit: also I’m pretty sure kakashi started the badass sensei trope
He's a badass teacher but on the same time he's also a bad teacher. He could have nip in the bud the shit with Sasuke, taught Sakura what really in tails of becoming a shinobi for konoha or give her some survival skill or taught Naruto some sense
@@yuri611 cmon bro you’re kinda being unfair to Kakashi😂 such a reach
@@yuri611 u have somewhat of point but if you actually watched the show you would know kakashi had deep guilt and regret that his student became a victim of orochimaru and turned to a villian, also adding the fact that two of his beloved disciples are fighting.
@@camerongaines5967 it's actually the truth though. He's not actually ready to become a teacher when the saindaime gave him a team, dude had a huge ptsd and survivor guilt at that time.
@@yuri611 ok but then u don’t have a story after all this ain’t real life it’s a fantasy story made to be I tersting with turns not everything go perfect
I believe you omit the fact that narratives could shine through metaphorically, not just literally - Rengoku's death was figurative of the Demon Slayers vs the Demons throughout the series, as well as other related themes of fighting against the odds with deadly consequences.
Personally, it made me think about insurgencies
What are you trying to convey exactly? You're "figurative" interpretation of his death happens to hold practically an identical meaning when looked at literally as well. Not sure if you just chose a poor example or didn't explain properly or what, but your comment doesn't make much sense.
@Matt Steele real life analogies do not equal literal interpretation. I don't understand what you are talking about. Literally the definition of a metaphor. As well as a poignant single event that is extrapolating it to more widely to many events unrelated events. How is that a literal interpretation
I definitely see where you're coming from but I don't see why you can't have both. I STILL enjoy lots of shonen for the moments of hype or for goofy 2d characters. I think they're both good in their own ways at least character wise. A well crafted video nontheless!
If discovering seinen caused that much impact, I can't imagine the impact you will feel whe you discover books.
frfr I feel people only think Vinland Saga and Vagabond are deep because they don't read anything. That includes me but I ain't denying it lol
I think the most beautiful thing about Vinland Saga's prologue is that it could make me hyped for something like Thorfinn's fight against Thorkell and then completely blindside me by making Canute's "Coming out of his shell" moment not only more interesting but subsequently making me less interested in the fight I was hyped for. I don't think any series has made me care that much about a character's development in that way before and while I loved the series already, I loved it even more after that.
The fact that you dropped Naruto into 3 eps is crazy, I can kinda see why mha was your favorite anime
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Naruto was the only thing I watched in my early childhood before we could afford internet in my house through pirated cd. I thoroughly watched it and one things for sure the ending was stupid. The movie the last is retarded, Boruto the plot armour is clusterfuck and the enemies are not as engaging as the akatsuki that remained mysterious until nearing the end of the anime also madara is just pure evil which is okay because villains should be eating babies and kicking puppies and that they have better grounded major supports, well there's only itachi for that role and the rest are trashbags. The Shippuden also showcased how detached kishimoto became from reality after spending years making that manga
@@janinebelleestrada7096 r u good lol. shippuden was better than og by a mile, brotuo isnt bad and the last ha issues but not retarded lvl
Watching Naruto makes you like MHA more and hate the latter bc the former comes off as a terribly written prototype. You can’t even get away with Naruto levels of bad writing anymore.
@@D_Owo naruto was more consistent while Shippuden had higher peaks and lower lows
I agree to 100% on the trauma part. Most Shounen don't really show what seeing so much pain and suffering leads to. For example, in Chainsaw Man we can see how Denji's will to live slowly decreases over time. I think showing those aspects of life is really important to relate more to the main character. I personally would probably die right on the spot when something so mind shattering happens like one guy with long black hair take out well over multiple thousands of men by simply beating their asses. When I see someone cooking people up like that, I'd have a mental breakdown on the spot man. Anyway, I'm just saying seeing characters be anxious over fighting a dude with insane abilities is really a thing that helps me personally feel way more attached to them, because they act like realistic human beings.
this is why vinland its special, Thorfinn who doesn´t see half the shit shonen protagonist (chainsaw man included) see, but was responsible for grounded atrocities, needs an entire arc, the farm arc to ask for forgiveness and deal with PTSD. Vinland has the best representation of mental illness and trauma bar none in anime. the second seaso its an entire redemption arc and character development when an actual person lives though extreme trauma. seeing thorfinn criying for the death he doesn´t even remember on daily nightmares from his extreme PTSD its one of the most human scenes in anime ever.
"most shonen", yeah, you dont watch/read shonen
Gigguk made a video about the life cycle of an anime fan like 100 years ago, and you're unironically living through it. You're currently somewhere in the middle of this journey, but you'll know it's complete when you're able to enjoy shonen anime once again.
That’s weird considering I’m hyped for Hell’s Paradise and still enjoy Shonen like MHA and JJK and my profile pic is literally a Shonen MC. It seems you’ve made the mistake a lot of people have in assuming that I don’t like Shonen because I made a video being critical of it.
@@Swizbbey you should definitely watch naruto, atleast part 1 and half of shippuden. kakashi is so much more than a "cool teacher". he has an excellent backstory. Even tho naruto has a lot of issues its still worth a shot
Maybe… or maybe I’ll watch Boruto before Naruto, who’s going to stop me?
THIS comment, I think we all go through this. It’s like you move away from shonen when you find Seinen, but you suddenly realise hmmm Seinen can get really dark, I need some light in my life….and boom you’re looking at Shonen with appreciation again, you’re just more mature.
@@DmDaPDm true
As much I love vinland saga and respect the other two I sometimes need a show without consequences you know my brain can't handle in real life and I'd like my show to take a chill pill for a moment so I can with it , but i digress.
I feel that. I don’t want to rag on anyone for enjoying things. It’s sometimes tempting to insist someone watch a ‘quality’ show over whatever ‘lesser’ show they’re currently watching, but that’s not the kind of attitude I want to have regarding the things I like because if you don’t enjoy Vinland Saga you won’t get anything out of it anyway.
@Swizbbey totally agree and thankyou for the chill vibes + vinland saga is a master piece fr fr
Gojo isn’t even the “teacher role” for Yuji. Idk how you watched season 1 and u didn’t see Nanami in that role, who clearly had a bigger impact on Yuji as a role model. Gojo’s job is to create a safety net in the narrative not to teach the main protag. My guy, u need to give it another shot.
I am aware Nanami is a teacher but Gojo shares that role with him. Nanami is the 2nd best character so far IMO (in the anime). The best is obviously Maki.
@@Swizbbey either way, watch season two, trust me it will blow ur mind 🙏😭
@@Swizbbey you really need to read the manga or wait for second season, i can 100% say u will take back jjk is generic.....
Thts why they took him off coz he would just be tht op character in the culling games
@@Swizbbey this MF only watched s1 and is out here putting JJK side by side with MHA,come on man…at least get up to dade with everything before sharing your (incomplete) thoughts
I'd agree if Shonen and Seinen were on the same level but they are not. Like you said, "Through hard work and dedication you can do anything is a fine lesson for ten year olds but I ain't ten." We are comparing apples to oranges. Series for young people vs series for older people. They each have their place so at the end of the day I think this debate is stupid.
As a huge fan of MHA (not the fandom) I totally agree with you. However, you make it seem like dying is the only kind of valuable consequence. While having characters die does play well on stakes and morality, there are other consequences that MHA explores.
For example. People say All Might should have died in his fight with All For One. While that could have been impactful to the world and its characters, what if instead we subvert the trope? You know the one, where the teacher dies and causes his student to grow in some way. What if we have that all-mighty teacher become powerless and have him watch the society he built and held on his shoulders crumble before his very eyes. An arc where god becomes a mere mortal. Well, that's what All Might is about. Doesn't that also sound compelling? I'm not saying his arc is executed amazingly tho. Sadly, his arc is paced off and on throughout the story due to the ensemble cast. But when we do get it, it's really well done.
All Might is easily one of my favorite fiction characters, if we take a look at his entire arc and journey though My Hero, we find such a compelling story (at least to the moment I'm writing this lol) that also is the base of the rest of the series
gojo's motivations are deeper than you think, read up to hidden inventory and you'll get it
"are you the strongest because you're satoru gojo? or are you satoru gojo because you're the strongest?"
They might be but I have no context for it.
@@Swizbbey trust me do not look at gojo as a teacher but a character in the world
@Christopher like he said he doesn't have context of that line. I didn't either until I read the Gojo Past Arc
@@christopher4227 he isn't a teacher lol
He is a brother to all these characters and a guardian angel
are you telling me that watched only 3 eps from naruto and you decided to include kakashi in this video ??
His inclusion was only to say that Naruto also shares the teacher and school tropes which may have been done well. I understand the reaction but Naruto wasn’t the crux of my argument; I didn’t say anything about him one way or the other.
@@Swizbbey Regardless it was not the best. The teacher student role with askeladd and thorfinn was not fleshed out for about 6-7 episodes, but you give another show 3 and call it a day (spoiler the teacher relationship with kakashi is indeed mid, but you did not invest enough time to come to that conclusion. You just stated it cuz "shit on shonen" was the point of the vid)
bro im ngl i watched 3 or 4 seasons or naruto but it was too fucking painfully boring for me to watch lmao. it wasnt funny, the filler was too much, and naruto doent appeal to me as a character but its personal preference so yuh.
@@jayd0n-_- why didnt u just skip the filler then
@@wondays654 how is the teacher student relationship between naruto and akashi mid did we watch the same naruto?
tho i agree with many points but u sound like that guy who recently found out abt seinen and now see flaws in almost all popular shonen - jjk ,mha, ds, csm non of them are mid they all have their strengths and weakness
jjk - a guys who wants to know what is meaningfull death & being strongest doesn't mean u will always win
mha - a super hero setting from many char's pov
ds - sometimes we don't need a thematic heavy & philosiphical story
csm - under some quirky action it has a meaning
u went extra critical on mha specially , mha is 7 when compared to vinland or even less but it portrays many amazing theme and real life connections like it's quirk system is very similar to our's money - the ones who have it are worshipped as gods(as ppl look and give all responsibilty to hero's) and ppl who don't have money are destined to doom(quirkless ppl in mha are good as dead)
how is ds having tons of work and depth put into its themes and philosophies a bad thing?
As much as I agree with you on the "my hero academia is kinda mid"(though I don't agree with all of your reasoning),in this video is kind of obvious that you haven't experienced yet a good number of stories from both demographics. For example the " bloated cast of characters" is not always a prerogative of shonen ( ex. Durarara! And Baccano are both seinens and both have a very huge cast) and things like " optimism & being able to accomplish your goals" is more dependent on the themes of the particular story or author rather than being seinen or a shonen, the " big 3" of seinen ( while fantastic stories) are all very dark and brutal stories but aren't totally representative of the entire demographic ( ex. Spice & wolf is a mostly light-hearted story of a traveling merchant and wolf spirit, but it's still a seinen).
Also don't limit yourself to shonen and seinen, there's also shoujo, josey, children's manga and anime ( for real you would not expect how good some of those are).
Great video I whole heartedly agree with you but I feel you didn't really get Gojo's real goal.
While he is exactly as you describe his actual goal is more about changing the way Jujutsu sorcerers operates to reform it.
Though that's never mentioned ever again after Yuji come back to life and i doubt it will be mentioned again considering the jjk is probably about to end soon
Thanks. I’ve heard a lot now that Gojo gets better soon. I’ll have to wait and see.
The next ark is gojo's past which marks the start of a distinctive change from what was adapted s1 of the anime. but i'd also argue in defense of gojo's character it's very static on purpose, his character upholds the satus quo of his universe and that's his role. He is the "strongest" but still very imperfect i.e his shitty personality traits, and so while I agree he isn't a good use of the mentor trope, he's not really supposed to be, his existence makes the villains the underdog for once and that pays off so well.
@@Swizbbey you will like him alot more with season 2 which starts of with gojos past in hidden inventory
@@stack4229 The trailer and poster looks interesting.
@@Swizbbey Season 2 will be amazing and from this point it jujutsu kaisen will just get better and better.
I really hope u will enjoy it :3
Ah, yes...the great Seinen Series Chainsaw Man...which was published by Shonen Jump...and is categorised as Shonen.
And also, I hope you know not all Shonen is Battle stuff, Slam Dunk and such exists. And nice that you left out Hunter X Hunter.
tbf chainsaw man is a "new gen shonen" which the mad man fujimoto made. fujimoto makes something closer to seinen that shonen so... but hunter x hunter is 100x better than most other shonen
@@jayd0n-_- It's shonen. Not Seinen. And this dude acted as if it's Seinen. That's dumb.
But it's a well written Shonen which can't be said about most other shonen.
@@imextremlyhandsome okay but that doesnt change the fact that most seinen are better than ur average naruto ,dragon ball etc
CSM being called a Seinen is a joke
The most connected I felt to a shonen was with Hajime no Ippo.All the Kamogawa Gym memebers felt like real colleagues or gymbros I've met Irl,plus the amount of detail spent into the boxing techniques made me love it more than most superpowered shonen characters.
Vinland saga is my favourite series of all time. It's so much more than Vikings, even in season 1 you can tell it's special. Small stories like the mother helping Thorfinn, the priest and that red haired girl (Anne, I think).
9:29 Pretty sure there's a setup for a Gojo and Geto backstory, in JJK 0. I only watched the anime tho, but I should read the manga coz I heard it's pretty good. Also, for Demon Slayer the second half of mugen train was focused on humans vs demons but imo I still didn't like that movie all that much.
The arc which picks up after the JJK anime (hidden inventory arc) gives u a much better understanding of gojos character
Great video essay ngl !!
This is one of my most wanted video on yt. Shonen vs Seinen. Thanks mate for making this video.
Hope to see more from you!!
Thanks!
Very well put together video, Mob Psycho is a good example of a shonen not following tropes and still doing well (kinda)…BUT it feels weird to compare MHA to Vagabond.
I just think when you speak about the difference you should also address the fact that shonen needs to appeal to a larger fan base. It’s different when people fall in love with the side characters as much as the main character and sometimes it’s just down to design and how people don’t always see themselves as relating to the main guy.
People LOVED Kirishima…before he had his big moment….WHY!? Lol I do not know, he barely did anything but he was adored so much Hirokoshi had to address that, and don’t get me started on deaths.
People want these characters to live on and although it makes for a less realistic story I think we need to accept that There is always going to be a disconnect with Seinen and Shonen even though they are the same medium.
I actually think it’s harder to write a successful Shonen then Seinen. Because for all the things Vinland saga has, it’s not got personality like My hero, but it’s not supposed to so comparing feels off.
While I disagree with a lot of the finer details of your takes (especially the father-son dynamic between Thorfinn and Askeladd), this is an extraordinarily well done video essay on some of the essential problems within mainstream shonen manga and anime. It's a breath of fresh air to hear someone not afraid to dunk on a series in order to make a point, because at the end of the day, hopefully we are mature enough to not take criticism of our favorite show too seriously. You've definitely earned yourself a sub.
Thanks, it means a lot. I can't remember how many exactly, but in the original script I had a whole lot more dunks, but I cut a lot of them because I don't want that to be my content. I only feel comfortable criticizing Rengoku because I think I can articulate my feelings about him well enough.
I thought the father-son dynamic for Askeladd and Thorfinn wasn't supported either, I thought it was more a teacher-student which it is in a lot of ways. But I found a page in the manga that confirmed that Thorfinn has those feelings.
It is a father son dynamic
Fun fact even the Autor called it a father son dybamic in an interview with gigguk.
But I can get why every person can have a different take on it. After all we all have different father son relationships growing up ourselfs and we can mostly relate to our own experiences
@@sirnonsense5033 I didn’t know that, thanks for letting me know. I think the main reason I still dislike that interpretation is because it makes the character of both Thorfinn and Askeladd inconsistent imo. Thorfinn’s hatred for Askeladd is so clearly displayed as being unbridled that to suggest he had any feelings of son-like respect or compassion is absurd. Did he learn important life lessons from Askeladd? For sure. But that’s why I like the idea of teacher-student more than father-son. Askeladd also does not show any compassion for Thorfinn, instead using him as a tool and helping him only when it benefits Askeladd himself.
@@practicalpatriot i mean u couldnt have known xd it came out like a day before u posted this xd. I get u on that. I myself felt it more of teacher student relationship but after rewatching season 1 it kinda felt like both abit. Expecially at the end when he dies.
I mean... I don't think you're wrong, but also, who is trying to say MHA > Vinland Saga? Other than your example of someone who hasn't read it? Also, focusing on JJK, Naruto, and especially MHA so much makes it feel like you didn't have more evidence, even though it's 100% out there. Wanna talk about downsides of a too-big cast? Why not mention One Piece, a manga with roughly a 1:1 character:chapter ratio? Wanna talk about the world not having any consequences? How could you not include Goku dying and coming back, what is it, like 3 times? Y'know?
Also, what about shonen that DON'T exhibit those flaws and use their tropes effectively? I mentioned One Piece and the huge cast, but the majority of the characters we care about DO develop in meaningful ways and we SEE it. Zoro, despite seemingly like just "cool sword guy" has a ton of subtle progression throughout. It's not super obvious, and his overall demeanor stays the same, but the way he goes from joining Luffy to avoid being in anyone's debt to being willing to die on multiple occasions to see Luffy succeed is a gradual and meaningful change. A world where consequences matter and trauma isn't just brushed off? Hunter x Hunter's got you covered. We can see how nen affects the lives of everyone, albeit most people don't realize too much. The Hunter's Association is an extremely dominant, nearly oppressive political force. Also, we see how trauma has deeply affected three of the main characters in different ways. Gon loses his mind when Kite dies and acts impulsively, full of bloodlust, and simply can't seem to grapple with it, at least not yet. Killua constantly doubts Gon's friendship and takes a very long time to let himself show emotion pretty much at all. Kurapika has gone down the path of allowing his trauma to take over his entire life.
I'll end my examples there, but I think you get my point. TONS of other shonen use these tropes or subvert them all the time, as well as even having worse examples of the tropes. Some more shonen that it feels almost criminal not to mention are Jojo, Bleach, HxH, One Piece, DB, and FMA, all of which are cornerstones of the genre. I feel like having one or two examples of a trope you don't like, saying "trope =/= bad," and moving on doesn't feel like you really thought about it. And then there's the main thing, which you mentioned, that makes the entire argument just... pointless. Shonen, is at its core, for young teenagers. It's usually made to be simple fun where you can turn your brain off and watch some cool fights happen and have just enough intrigue to keep a through-line. Shonen isn't really meant to explore things so deeply, and especially not themes like death, trauma, etc. Like, yeah, no shit the genre targeted toward older people is gonna include more things older people would like? Idk.
Thank you.
this was a great video essay man keep it up
Thanks!
really liked that ending of your vid full of meanings and speaking facts. You got a new sub here !
Thanks!
I agreed with most of what you said here but that comment about blue lock confused me because you talked about people not always being able to complete their goal and how hard work doesn't necessarily always equal a happy ending but blue lock is all about willingly risking your chance at achieving your dream only for some people to lose it while they're very young. It might not be a permanent "you died" scenario but it's still rough when it happens
This is such a great video which has convinced me to finally watch Vineland Saga. One sharp point I would make is that mentioning how MHA feeling more and more average is sorta like an adult mentioning they used to like sweets as a child.
Shonen, generally, are geared towards children to preteens. So it's completely expected as one gets older, or your taste in anime matures, you'd be drawn to more narratively complex/diverse shows.
The reason why I make this point is that if you drastically change how shows like My Hero or Demon Slayer operate you might be robbing young people of the chance to go through their Shonen phase.
However shows like Avatar and Attack On Titan do challenge this point of view
I agree, and glad you’re watching VS. Yeah I went straight from Pokémon and YuGiOh to Another and Attack on Titan.
Why not both, i both love mha and vinland saga and i think they are both great
@@Kaika433 It's good to like things, I try to bring up quality issues or logical inconsistencies, or in this case tropes that keep MHA down from Vinland Saga on an objective level. I don't even think MHA is bad.
Before I watch this is this spoilers for manga versions of all these shows or just the shows because I'm caught up with the shows however I have not read any of these mangas. If someone could let me know I can watch it or not I'd really appreciate it.
No manga spoilers just anime spoilers.
@@Swizbbey thanks!
I love some of the shonen you showed in the video, but I completely agree with every point in the video. The fact that even I, someone who adores these series' agree really says something.
Yeah, it’s not like I hate any of these series either. I appreciate my time with them. It would be hypocritical to say they’re not enjoyable, because they are.
It just makes the humane aspect way more impactfull when it isn't overtly big superhero powers and too much jokes. Also too much powers can be limiting in presenting problems to solve, I also don't like too much when it's all about just getting new skills. Something in between works great like Fullmetal Alchemist that has a geniuine lure to it and it's always heading to a goal. Then something like Vinland Saga for example.. ironically enough since some of it's arcs are considered boring by many is not boring for me since just because there isn't some huge fight going on it doesn't mean anything isn't happening.
I disagree with your assessment of Jujutsu Kaisen. The OP Teacher trope used there is a subversion as he is the pinnacle of talent and self-actualization in the series. Despite being a positive effect on the narrative, he represents the many trappings associated with the power system. Despite his power, he is consistently subverted, hence why Gege wrote him to be so strong. As powerful as he was, it didn't stop Toji, or Kenjaku nor did it stop Shibuya from turning into a wholesale slaughter.
JJK is as close to seinen as shonen can reliably get, aside Chainsaw Man. As for BNHA being poorly written, there is no contest there. Most of the people IN the fandom agree with you. Horikoshi keeps setting issues up and teasing development, only to snatch it away.
This could all be true it just didn’t happen in Season 1 or the movie. I haven’t read the manga but I heard it gets much better.
@@Swizbbey it does, its probably the best at the moment
Hunter x hunter,Aot and Magi are the closest to seinen
This is what I don't get. Why does it have to take an entire season plus a film (or two seasons and a film in demon slayer's case) for these shonen series to "actually start to get good"?
They can totally leave some clues hinting at something deeper right from the start. I'm tired of being told that "it will get better" after having already spent dozens of hours on a show and still can't see anything mildly promising just from the content I've already watched.
@@DL-idk Just read magi. A top tier shonen
Fantastic video brotha!
Thanks!
Nice work on the video really enjoyed it!
Thanks!
Idk, it’s hard to compare entire groupings of manga by just looking at a few series. Of course Vinland saga is going to be significantly more unique and better crafted then most shonen, but could the same not be said for most media in general? Vinland saga and other examples are just really good. Showing this point further, CSM is a shonen lmao. Is being shonen vs being seinen really what being discussed here?
It's about Shonen vs Seinen tropes, of which I showed off a few. CSM avoids those tropes which I think hold back other series'.
So from what I get is, you don't like Shonen series because of their optimistic and inspirational nature, and the fact that they are usually aimed at 7 to 16 year old boys, but you like Seinen series because of their graphic and mature nature, and the fact that they're aimed at young adult men? (which you most certainly fit into, correct me if I'm wrong). Cause that's definitely the vibes I'm getting from your criticisms.
I can’t blame you for thinking that but I don’t like the average Seinen more than the Average Shonen, they have more in common than they don’t. Attack on Titan is a Shonen but can pass as Seinen, it’s one of my favourites as well as Chainsaw man and several others. Which is why the video isn’t strictly Shonen vs Seinen. I think that because of the age range of Shonen and the need for audience retention at risk of cancellation makes the general Shonen market far less diverse and less appealing to me than Seinen.
@@Swizbbey Then why not just title the video "Why I don't like Shonen series"? Not to tell you how to do your job or anything, I'm just saying that would have been much more clearer to everyone.
@@tavaedenton3338 But I do like Shonen series'. I just think some tropes hold them back, perhaps not even the majority but a lot. Like I said, even I think MHA is a 7/10. I don't think they're bad.
@@Swizbbey Well that's fine, but tropes aren't really the problem. It depends on how the author uses those tropes to tell a compelling story.
@@Swizbbey Have you read shonen like Magi or hunter x hunter?
It makes sense that the teacher trope goes so far in Vinland Saga as in a recent interview with Gigguk, Yukimura admitted that himself having 3 boys helped him become really good at writing "father/son" combos, and in this case, "student/teacher". It's not a far cry to say him putting his real life difficulties that come with raising kids really helped his writing and development. You mentioned character development and what better way to develop your characters than to just develop yourself?
good review, Vinland Saga is my number 1 story/manga of all time (yes it tops the list of other seinen for me too)
Shounen and Shoujo I tend to just view in a simular light to YA books, just coming from a different culture, both are watered down because the target audience quite simply wouldn't understand or maybe simply not even care, more often than not, about some of the more complex themes and events
It's interesting how he talked about student teacher relationships in shounen without discussing the relationship between naruto and Jiraiya
He said he dropped it after 3 episodes so he never saw it 😂
I agree with basically everything, it would have been cool to see attack on Titan mentioned. The “training arc” is like 1 episode with tons of information. The “teacher” is kinda Erwin? Or Levi? But Erwin dies and Levi fights to kill eren. There is an end amble in attack on Titan but isayama masterfully gives information on basically all of them, and crushed the development of people like eren, Jean, Erwin, hange, floch, Reiner, berethold, and many others.
Although i agree with almost everything you stated, Gojo is'nt a half-assed teacher-role character. during the hidden inventory arc you see a lot of the development behind his character and the reason why he fights. he's also there to work as the counterweight for the power system. he's used to show just how large the power gap can be and that it's not always going to be fair, such as when he gets sealed and all of a sudden the "good guys" are becoming vastly outranked and get outright decimated.
Thanks. If he gets development in season 2, good. I've only seen the first season, I'm no JJK manga reader.
Everything else you argue could be true but it wouldn't make him any better of a character. If anything that's praising the worldbuilding or plot structure.
you're spot on with most of what you said, but SOME shounen really step it up and just need some time. Shippuden and JJK being two of them, the entirety of OG Naruto serves as a prologue and the whole first season of JJK serves as a prologue. The focus of JJK isn't the characters, its the world itself (same with Naruto somewhat.) The effects of society on the individuals and vice versa, give it some time. That being said, I 10000% agree that 9/10 seinen are light years of ahead of 9/10 shounen. The only exceptions being the odd HxH, AoT, and JJK type shounen.
basically, u had me in the first half 😂😂
I feel the true essence of JJK cannot be shown by the first season. The story going forward really leaves all the familiar tropes and adopts a more darker storyline even though it remains a shonen.
But i completely agree with your ideology on my hero academia having the most shonen tropes out there and is meant for the younger audience.
I've read a lot of both shonen and seinen, and while not every point you make is completely wrong I feel like it's exaggerated to a certain extent. First we have to take into account that you're comparing one seinen to many shonen, which is fine if the main point you're making is that Vinland Saga is amazing. But instead you're using it to say the Seinen overall is better than shonen. If you read Seinen outside of the big three (Berserk, Vagabond, Vinland Saga) you'll find a lot of medicore stuff as well. Most plot points and themes in seinen are still in Shonen too, and I feel like I see a lot of elitism from Seinen readers who watched a couple mediocre shonen, them checked out one of the best Seinens ever written and completely 180 and say 90% of shonen is trash. But if you really start branching out you'll realize there's a lot a really shitty seinen as well. Both "genres" have merit and reach the same level of quality at times for better and worse, the demographic labels are the least important aspect of this conversation. Even chainsaw man is a Shonen technically, so it's very arbitrary
@0:29 is that your top 10 list?? a lot of titles i havent read/watched, ive heard about some of them, i will pick one up since i was looking for a quality manga to go into, which one of those should i get? looking for something more grounded in reality (manga 'reality' that is) with mature themes, great story and cha development.
In no particular order those are the best manga I’ve read. I recommend Land of the Lustrous.
I know this is about *anime* series but jjk manga twists the tropes into a doozy. You were right about gojo being selfish. He would be willing to kill thousands if it were to benefit his ideals. Gege doesn't deny it nor shade away from it. I highly suggest reading the manga because it's quite similar to how vinland saga develops its story. Not the storyline in general, just how it's written.
SPOILERS!!----
(There *is* a school setting in chainsaw man. Though, it happened in the manga)
Gojo gets more developed and his mindset get explained in the coming season. We meet him after he’s been through his most significant change but who he was gets fleshed out later on.
I hope so.
Im currentyl only at season2 of vinland saga but manga upt to date to mha. Can anyone tell me if there are major vinland saga spoilers in this video?
Only season 1.
i love how most and even some of th best shonen anime and manga have a restriction for how much violence and sexual stuff they can show but still pretty focused on the violent stuff and action but the best seinen where they have less restriction for how much they can show those thing chose to show a story of realizing how bad violence is.
And most Seinen don’t use those privileges of sexual and violent freedom because they’re to busy telling a story.
My anime entry is AOT. I've watched death note and hunter x hunter before, but somehow it's AOT that actually got me into the media. My taste lies somewhere between shonen and seinen. AOT and Vinland saga are kinda on the sweet point: AOT being the shonen on the seinen side, Vinland saga being a seinen with a somewhat shonen heart (the characters didn't give up hope for a better world despite everything).
But at the same time I also find myself watching full fledged shonen that is one piece and enjoy it a lot. I don't think it's as deep as many hard core fans believe it is (yeah there are heavy themes being shown, but haki is literally a form of will power and the shonen tropes are so on the nose I can't possibly look pass them). But you know what, one piece is so fun to watch I don't mind the tropes. I mean it's One piece. The characters can literally regrow lost teeth by drinking milk. There's simply no point to ask for any level of realism when nonsense like this is part of the backbone of the series (and the best part IMO).
I think one piece has found the perfect place for regular shonen: you can try to act deep and preach lessons about love, friendships and dreams however you want, but don't forget to give the "old people" in your audience some fun time with all the ridiculous wish fulfilling nonsensical stuffs as an escape from the stress of real life.
Anyway. The point is, we all have different tastes. Our tastes will change. And even when it's relatively stable, we still watch and love a variety of different shows for very different reasons. Sometimes it's a mood, sometimes it's nostalgia. And sometimes it's simply because it's the show that got us into the media so it will always be somewhat special.
@Solo Gamer I also have the same tastes, so perhaps I'll chime in.
As the video said, there are the Seinen BIG 3:
- Berserk (DON'T watch the anime(s), read the manga)
- Vagabond
- Vinland Saga
Other than that, there's
- Monster (I prefer the manga. I think the anime hasn't "aged" that well)
- Mushishi (anime)
- The Climber
- Akira (the manga, not the movie)
- Yomawari Sensei
- Parasyte (anime)
- Planetes
- Uzumaki
Then there are those that stradle the line between a Shonen and Seinen:
- Kingdom
- Hell's Paradise
- Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind (the manga, not the movie)
- 20th Century Boys
- Jojo's Bizzare Adventure, Part 7 & 8 (completely new storyline, so you don't have to read the previous parts)
- FullMetal Alchamist: Brotherhood
NOTE: Berserk, Vagabond, Vinland Saga, and Kingdom are ongoing series. The rest have concluded, and had really good enddings.
Too bad AOT's ending is shounen af
@Solo Gamer The other comment has a better list than mine 😅 but I see that they didn't mention Dororo. It's worth watching as well. Just keep in mind that for this one the remade anime is actually the best way to watch it.
What gojo wants and feels gets shown pretty clearly even in the first season. Yeah it's not ground breakingly deep. But he's also not just unga bunga purple.
the thing is : sometimes we does not realize that our taste & point of view changes as we grow old , like when we are like 10-16 years old all the flashy & colourfull , good beats evil , adventure & vanila first love give us sense of hope that our live can be as awesome like the shounen manga MC that we adored so much , but when we turn like 20-30 years old , our mature way of thinking starting to wanted something different like : tragedy , wisdom , character with more realistic behavior & not just some teenager MC who think that they have some noble obligation to save the world & destroy evil , , & off course seinen seems like missing something without R-rated bloody & gore
I had no idea what any of this meant until recently I just found out all the shows I couldn't get into were shonens and all the shows I loved seinen
It do be like that. I wish I could love everything.
My hero Academia could've improved as a story if the main goal was ending superhumans or stopping superhumans from getting created like dabi got neglected as a child now he unalives people instead of focusing on endeavour being a bad father the anime should focus on how dangerous people with superhuman genes can be and the only real way to stop supervillains is by ending superhumans both hero and villains
Any moral question you have about superpowers is never going to be addressed in MHA because its all about the fights. The quirk doomsday theory thing was solved in one movie, how superpowers are getting more and more destructive/dangerous with each generation but now the canon answer to that is: 'There is no scientific evidence for that, don't worry about it,' like bro that was one of the most interesting things the worldbuilding ever introduced.
@@Swizbbey
They don't say that, Eri is straight up shown to be evidence of it and they point out the younger kids have insanely powerful quirks.
@@Swizbbey don't take movies as facts, the mangaka barely had anything to do with it besides the international premise and the black suits at the beginning. And the fact that everyone felt extremely out of characters is even further proof that the dude had nothing to do with the movie lol
For me, part of the reason that Shonen troupes can feel so overused compared to Seinen troupes is the fact that as you say, they never get enough screentime as Naruto has a large cast, but it's also quite long and the writer made good use of that time to explore the characters, the world, and the stakes with entire arcs existing where Naruto isn't the most important person, and most of them are extremely good and really get you invested into the minor characters, you know they aren't the main characters, but you're interest in them and their personal stories is enough that you don't care if you have to spend like 5-10 episodes with them, it's why many Naruto fans love side characters like Kakashi, Rock Lee, Shikamaru, Obito, Madara, Gaara, etc.
MHA, I feel fell into the trap of trying to be that Seinen, but not having the commitment to make the change as JJBA did. More then that, the writer has gone on record and started he never wanted to write something as long as Naruto so he's shot himself in the foot on 2 fronts. The first being he still needs to write a product that contains enough explosive action as regularly as possible to keep up with the audience demand, and the second being the fact that because he put a limit on himself, entire plot points and characterization has to be cut.
Examples being Uraraka's development as in the beginning, it seemed like she was going to be different from the standard shouen love interest for the MC...but then that's exactly what she become, most likely because he couldn't fit in anything else in the limit he set for himself. Another example would be the mutant discrimination as before the final arc, it's only hinted to, with those hints only started in season 2 if you're generous, but more blatant in season 5 with nothing in the in-between seasons 3-4. If the story had maybe another 100 chapters, we could have explored this properly.
Naruto has a great cast of side character's but for some reason most of them don't do anything.
@@chickenabuser5474 I think it is because the focus change on shippuden.
Before time skip konoha is more about team work. Kakashi teachs that, Chunin exam and also Sasuke rescue is about that.
Shippuden start out with team work, but when the enemy get too strong(Pein) every one becomes useless.
There is nothing the other kids Naruto age can do against it.
If you look carefuly after Naruto becoming a sage, not even Sasuke could rival him. So Kishimoto gave him mangekyo wich would not help beat Naruto cuz genjutsu could be disruped by bijuu and Amaterasu is useless on him, shortly he got eternal mangekyo and it still was not able to beat Naruto who finaly could use Kurama chakra freely.
So they got the next power up where Sasuke a better eye is his own, but Naruto got a great mode which need a lot of chakra not only from Kurama but from other bijuu to use, without it he can't use it's full power.
In Naruto case it would be better if the other chakracters were useful too. It is sad see so many characters with great potential being forgoten.
@@chickenabuser5474 Another thing too is how the autor do the character.
Boruto focus only on Boruto the other character a barely explored them Kawaki comes and it focus on Boruto and Kawaki.
However neither of this 2 characters are as good writen as the story try to show.
HxH is not so long but it have great characters. The focus on Gon and Killua is great, but the autor is also great at showing the world and other characters as well. He even finished Gon story and started another new arc with other character and you do not miss the old main charcter because there are many old and new characters who are amazing in this new arc.
It is a great shounen.
@@RubyAPBT I wouldn't had any problem Naruto Shippuden turning into Naruto and Sasuke circle jerk if they were good and interesting characters. Like best character in Naruto are the side characters. The main cast sucks (excluding Kakashi) . It's so disappointing that good characters like Rock Lee and Neji were practically useless .
@@RubyAPBT Even a show like FMAB which only had 60 episodes did much better job at exploring the side characters than Naruto Shippuden an anime with 300is non filer episode. I haven't seen Boruto so I don't anything about that show .
Repeated tropes are about configuration. I don't mind either. Sometimes I watch wondering what a new configuration in a scenario would play like.
This just feels like a long way to say "I just wish the stories felt more real over fantasy." Lol
I'm curious as to why you gave series like Vinland Saga and Houseki no Kuni a 9 on MAL? Is it because the series have yet to conclude or do you just not like giving things a 10? Regardless glad to find someone else who loves both of these shows/manga.
That's because I think a 10/10 means perfect and I don't think anything is perfect. Vinland Saga is pretty close.
@@Swizbbey Nice, i completely agree despite being guilty of giving my favourites 10's lmao.
Just saying, MHA was a very poor decision to criticize considering it’s one of the best modern shonen out there now. It has excellent character writing, thematic elements, emotional impact, and narrative depth. Not to mention the show is just incredibly enjoyable.
I literally have been watching anime and reading manga for nearly a decade, and I still can say with certainty that my hero academia is an incredible action shonen.
This video gives the impression that you something like Vinland saga is better written than mha, and while I won’t deny that, Vinland saga truly is a modern masterpiece, it’s a lot closer than you make it out to be. These are two completely different stories in two completely separate genre, what qualifies as great writing in one story, doesn’t necessarily for the other. It doesn’t translate universally.
The MHA criticisms that you provided either were not even detrimental to the narrative and irrelevant or just blatantly untrue. It feels like this video is just you nitpicking my hero into oblivion and shoe-shining Vinland saga like it’s your job. For example, you choose to bring up characters that aren’t even necessarily front and center in the narrative (yes you heard me, Aizawa is irrelevant in later seasons), but you’re not gonna bring up some of the characters that actually are incredibly written such as Dabi, All Might, Twice, or Shigaraki (aside from the clip that you played, contradicting the statement you made in that exact moment)
You should have chosen a shonen that was actually poorly written as your comparison
HOWEVER, I think this is a great video essay that highlights a stark contrast of freedom of creative expression in the seinen genre and the shonen genre
Also, read Berserk. If you like Vinland Saga, you’ll like it. Also, it will change your life and your entire outlook on what it means to be “peak fiction”
Also, edit. There is a high school in chainsaw man, dude. have you read Part 2?
I appreciate the criticism. I disagree that MHA is a one of the best modern Shonen. If I wanted to go in depth about MHA which I might do in another video, I would have and there is certainly a lot to praise. I don't think there is a big gap between MHA and Vinland Saga, I think MHA is around a 7 (Not to say some characters aren't great) overall and Vinland Saga is around a 9. My point wasn't that one was 'bad', it was that I started to recognize things that I thought held MHA back, which I could have been far more specific.
I am up to date with Chainsaw Man and I know there's a school in part 2 but it's a normal school that has plot relevance. What I criticized were the 'superpowered schools'. I can see the criticisms of this perspective but this is just the comment section so I won't go in depth, sorry if I can't be clearer.
@@Swizbbey It’s cool man, I’m not tryna sound pretentious or anything. I genuinely think this is a good video too, i just thought you were very critical on MHA while not being equally critical with Vinland saga. I think MHA by all of anime standards is like a 7 or 8 but within its individual genre of shonen it’s a 9 or 10. I think Vinland Saga’s anime is an 8 and it’s manga is a 10. I think if you do a different video on MHA, you should definitely put more emphasis on the things that MHA DOES do really well, while also bringing up some negatives. Also, you should probably bring up some negatives of Vinland Saga too, because there are a good amount, such as how slow this new season has been getting out of the gate.
Also yes, I also don’t really like the whole superpower school trope, but in MHA, they somehow find a way to make it very interesting. I think the only time where I was bored of the school trope in MHA was during season 5, which was admittedly the worst season in the series by far.
I honestly recommend catching up to at least MHA’s anime, because it has been REALLY good recently during the second cour of season 6.
Also, it would be interesting to see you make a video essay criticizing the isekai power fantasy genre.
@@lenoreyt i disagree with season 2 of vinland saga being slow, i would describe it like more "chill", which is absolutely necessary for Thorfinns development and also is a nice change of pace after season 1 and the first episode of season 2.
@@Kaika433 Well, the pacing is objectively considerably slower than that of the first season. But slow pacing doesn’t necessarily mean bad, I think it fits this part of the story far better.
@@lenoreyt oh ok i agree
My first shonen was JoJos and entering seinen it was also JoJos and one punch man too me part 7 and 8 are the best parts ever made in jojo standards that is and the best manga to ever exist to me is part 8 just cause of the villain we didnt have a villain that scary and terrifying that literally gave me chills even though his a fictional character as if am watching some junji ito manga horror and one punch man truly came close to it just cause you guessed it the main villain too and the portagonist’s of all parts the character development is just crazy speaking of jojo that is in OPM all the characters are developing even saitama but his way less as if he never changed i will read Berserk or Vagabond one day and choose if one of these two will become my big three just one more needs to be added to my table
Funny thing you are on step 2 of your storytelling adventure. I started on Hobbit/DBZ?Naruto and now I finished Crime and Punishment... Never thought that I would never touched that book on my own but somehow I worked myself to it thru years of exposure to media.
In my opinion Shoonen is not bad it is just what it is and there is no need to change it but there is also soo god dam much greate works of fiction out there(books/movies/aniem ect.) that one person might find it hard to go thru it in any resonable span of time. I also recomend you to watch Monster.
Bro the monster anime sucked I'm just gonna read the manga.
I recomend you read the jjk manga its gold i easily place it on my top 5 mangas somewhere near chainsawman even.Your take on Gojo rlly differs from his actual standpoint in the show/manga(more)as it progressed and progresses.I hope you get to see how well writen he is[great editing💞]
I haven't dropped the anime so if season 2 impresses me enough I might read ahead. My perspective in the video is soley from season 1 and a few spoilers I've read.
Most of the video is misunderstanding the basics of writing, but I wonder what is your thoughts about one piece
Haven’t seen it.
@@Swizbbey oh really, the chopper photo caught my eyes 👽
Anyway, i think the execution is always the important thing , even if it is a troupe , it can be done very well
@@wwe12153 Yeah I used MS Paint to create a chopper version of my old avatar because I thought 'The one piece is real' meme was funny.
I agree old tropes can be well done, maybe I didn't say that enough, it matters what you do with it.
Jujutsu Kaisen will get better with Gojo next season. But yeah the teacher trope is a bit overused trope
I have heard JJK gets better and it certainly might. I’m up to date with it so I’ll probably end up watching season 2 anyway.
I am so glad vinland saga is getting more recognition fr fr. Idk why people judge it so fast at first sight, bcs cmon guys.. vikings are FRKN AWESOMEEEE (besides the fact that some of them were rapists). I love how vinland saga involves real historical figures like thorfinn and canute but in a ofc a fiction way. Vinland saga is juet so outstanding and just the buildup of the entire series is just executed sooooo well as well as the realism of the heavy emotions and actions that are being portrayed in vinland.
I just came across this video randomly, but you did really well. +1 sub and keep it up!! 🎉🎉🎉👏
It's a tough take. Your points have validity and it is just your opinion after-all.
I personally look at the shounen genre in a different light. I think the problem with shounen is that the more time is spent developing an array of characters the primary loss is actually world building. Films, TV shows, anime. Classics like Neon Genesis and Code Geass are examples of stella world building. You got Quentin Terentino and Christopher Nolan films with so much character absorption in the world building and it makes for amazing films. In shounen, it's not as profound. I think the primary issue being power scaling destroys the sense of climax. The big bad villain being no feeling of infinity war Thanos. I think Beserk does this really well in comparison. Funnily enough, JJK is a shounen are highly rate. Because, the characters feel seamless in the world. It's so interesting and the comedy is unique. You get a sense of building up to something, with many questions about the future. In comparison you could see the plot direction from a mile away for MHA.
Anyway, that's my tidbit. The grilling by the haters don't seem to understand that you have every right to voice your opinion and just because they don't largely agree with you doesn't mean they don't have out right totally veto your opinion and call you names and shit. I thought it was an interesting and well made video. So it has made me inclined to give Vinland saga a go. Cheers
My video definitely lacks grace. I didn't know I would garner so much attention so it was more of an opinion piece. Glad you're giving Vinland Saga a go, that's a W.
This is the only time I've ever heard a person express the idea that the ensemble cast in naruto taking away time from the main protagonists was anything other than a highlight of the story. It's certainly a position that can be taken, but I'm pretty sure most people tend to use naruto as an example of a stellar ensemble cast that are generally more liked than the protagonists.
the defense i can give to demon slayer is that its supposed to feel rushed as the hashira are fighting against time to get rid of the top level demons. If read with that in mind most of the story starts to make sense.
Sure, but that’s a decision by the mangaka and it’s a bad decision in relation to pacing. It’s not even true in Rengoku’s case because he got attacked on the way to the demon, he didn’t even get any time to develop. It’s fine if the pacing doesn’t bother people I just wouldn’t call it well written.
@@Swizbbey i agree with that rengokus character wasnt very fleshed out but it makes up for it in showing how significant he was as a powerhouse capable of going against the top three by himself. in later arcs this is shown as the hashira go into a full fledged battle. From my viewpoint which is biased demon slayer and jjk are some of the well written dark fantasy manga in recent times. taking over from titles such as hxh and full metal alchemist as a shounen is not easy but they try. If well animated the next arc in both jjk and demon slayer without a doubt will go among the top 10.
@@MMsaidthat Swordsmith Village will most certainly not make it a top 10 anime
I've only read berserk and vagabond I'm not sure if I should read Vinland is it worth it
Vinland is worth, trust.
@@Swizbbey kk I'll hop in
Shonen showed me how to keep my head up as a kid, seinin is teaching me how to carry myself as an adult
I think you can get both experiences from either of the genres. Generally you’re right though.
Both "genres" can be great. It just depends on the Mangaka to make the story etc. good and interesting.
Absolutely true.
They aren’t genres you doofus
The mha slander is wild
The everything slander is wild
had a stroke from the first sentence, does this video get any better?
No, it doesn't get any better for you.
Amazing vid but random shots at rengoku and blue lock your alone on that one my boy
Yeah kinda lol
You said there’s no Highschool in chainsaw man, but that’s just part 1. Part 2 is literally a Highschool arc 😅
I said ‘Special Superpower High School’ which the one in Chainsaw Man certainly isn’t, there’s good reason for it being there thematically and plot-wise.
for me I don't care if it's not that good if i enjoy reding it then it's good to me
Gigachad mentality.
Actually Vinland Saga first started serialization in a Weekly Shonen Magazine before being moved to Monthly Afternoon Magazine, similar to what happened to Steel Ball Run who started in Weekly Shonen Jump before being moved to Monthly Ultra Jump. (Difference between these 2 being that ones published by Kodansha and the other by Shueisha).
I agree with a lot of the points you have. Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood is the supreme of Shounen anime by far. It has all the components to make the anime great: the plot, world-building, character development, and storytelling,... The show just doesn't miss.
I watched FMAB 10 years ago and can hardly remember any of it. I'll rewatch it eventually.
The importance of a Manga is the Author and their Passion on Story Writing. Not the Target Demographic
Merci 👍
Well that's the issue, the target demographic and the marketing involved put many mangaka under scrutiny who don't want to be restricted specifically for genres and it ruins the target audiences especially when a show like Dragon Ball in the past which was liked by kids and adults alike is now relegated for kids due to western audiences demanding it so
@@Layde36 the Real Problem Which the People they were referring is not the Genre But the Maturity of the Storytelling what they want to understand. For example Detective Conan and Beastars are both Shonen (Target) Crime Investigation (Genre) but one is written for younger audiences while the other is written to appeal to a more Older Audience, Which is the Real Problem
@@stefanoiulli5462 well like I said so, the target audience in Japan in the 80s is quite different from today, you may not realise it but kid shows like dragon Ball did have graphic content and a lot of adult innuendos, the storytelling today is assigned for target demographics instead of whether it is actually good storytelling or not, even kids shows back in the day had better storytelling and tackled themes which adults understood well than today where kid shows barely have any learning content, it's upon the audience to decide what content they can watch and the storytelling aspects is something that is missing especially when some topics which tackle various subjects related to adults even harmless ones are censored leaving the show with barely any content, One piece is an example with how 4kids censored so much of the content it was barely watchable
@@Layde36 Well, also Some Shonen Anime of the early 2000s such Bleach, Naruto and FMA are Considering Kids Show in Japan Due for It's Primetime/Daylight Timeslots
This video is ROUGH.
As someone who loves and enjoys Shonen I feel like you fundament don't really understand most of the themes of the series you listed, ESPECIALLY jjk.
The most telling part of this video what when you said you thought stain was a goated villain at one point which, forget shonen standards, even by mha standards he wasn't the best. And then there are other complaints like how narutos cast takes away from the main characters development which is hilarious to hear because one of the BIGGEST complaints about naruto is that the side cast doesn't do much. It's even weirder to hear you say this after you admitted to dropping naruto at like episode 3...
There's more I could complain about in this video but I got shit to do. It just seems like ur going through that phase that every anime fan goes through when they discover seinen for the first time. Nothing wrong with preferring seinen to Shonen but complaining about Shonen not being seinen kinda misses the point of these demographics.
I feel like he didn't put too much effort in researching the series he looked down upon. Especially jjk which is pretty peak. I don't know if it's just him being ignorant or in denial but I've observed he hasn't been paying much attention to the comments which defend the actually good series he tries to make out as a bad example of poor and "tropey" writting. In my opinion, he's being pretty biased
I don't know, but I think you're missing the point from ringoku's short appearance like his appearance was supposed to be tragic. Look everybody we have this cool badass teacher that dies the same movie or season he's introduced like that was the subversion. What are you talking about like?
well there something i have observed since my school time, many people are into shonen, just bcz they just was want a feel good manga (not saying all shonen are fell good but u get the point), linear or basic plot line, just nothing related to harsh reality, misery, dismay etc which many seinen present very well
I would be really interested to know what you'd think of Golden Kamuy... like, even as a seinen, it's in a bit of a weird area. it does have a bit of an ensemble cast, just by the nature of it's premise, but that ensemble is used to great effect. there are so many characters in that series that deserve their own deep dive, but it's hard to isolate just one of them to talk about, because the themes get their hooks into each one of the characters in different ways. so the things you'll notice about one character might have common ground with another, which has common ground with another, in this daisy chain that flows together really seamlessly. it's how the series manages to characterize such a large cast so well.
most of the characters are either war veterans, convicted criminals, or members of a cultural minority... and the things that these three groups actually tend to have in common, is that all of them tend to have narratives about being forsaken. the soldiers who went to war were dehumanized, forced to kill and die, with no consideration for their safety, because that concept wasn't meant for them. the criminals who were left to rot in jail were dehumanized because the qualities that put them there are often very disturbing... but to the criminal themselves, the world gave up on coexisting with them, and shoved them in a box, so nobody would have to look at them or think about them anymore. for the people among these groups who probably have actual mental health issues, and who would benefit from actual support... lacking a solution still leaves them with a life to lead, and all of their issues unresolved. and then you look at the characters who come from this cultural minority that feels like they're under constant threat, and it raises complex questions about preservation. not just of a culture, but of individual people.
increasingly more as the series goes on, we see people who desperately want to dedicate themselves to living peacefully, as their cultural values typically dictate, grappling with the idea that if they don't fight and defend their culture with the type of violence that they're threatened with, they might not be able to preserve a single thing. but if they are forced to do to their people, what war has done to a lot of the veterans in this cast... isn't that also a type of erasure? in some ways, they may fail to preserve what they love most anyway, and that idea is very painful.
Golden Kamuy is interesting because it actually has a rather large cast, and not many important people end up dead... but that's typically because they're more interesting alive. they cause more problems by living. they present a necessary complication. and part of what it is to coexist as people, and care about the preservation of human life, is facing that complication instead of just wiping imperfect people off the face of the earth. and even within this framework, we see many examples of both healthy recovery, and spiraling unhealthy coping... and it creates some of the most interesting antagonistic relationships between characters that I've seen.
and the series also has a large element of humor to it... sometimes even stemming from some of the more depraved shit the series pulls. but the thing about humor, in a story like this, is that it's a humanizing part of the narrative. it allows you to have a massive amount of fun with the characters moment-to-moment, but this side of the characters only emerges when they feel comfortable, safe, and at liberty to be people once more. and when the characters fall under threat again, you become aware of what exactly you stand to lose from each of them. it's a compelling case for the value of them as people. and if they're this important after you've seen them open up, then they were always that important, even beforehand, when they were all dressed in identical uniforms, and made up to seem equally expendable.
it's an interesting case of a story being fun and lighthearted in many instances, having a large ensemble cast, and sometimes dipping into episodic territory, while still maintaining its themes in a way that sidesteps the pitfalls that more formulaic stories often fall into. it's really cool!
I haven't heard much about Golden Kamuy but it sounds interesting, I think I'd like it. I'll probably read the manga at some point.
@@Swizbbey yeah, I think as a solo experience, the manga is the best way to go anyway. if you end up getting to it, I hope you enjoy it👍
I think Tsurumi and Ogata are testaments to how strong a story's writing is when the villains are more than just people to hate. Love Golden Kamuy so much. Such a great read
@@MoreMallards ooh, you're so right about those two characters specifically!
[SPOILERS AHEAD]
I could talk about both of these characters quite a lot, but I think my favorite moments for each of them have to do with their parallels to the main characters.
for Tsurumi, I love that he's a foil to Asirpa, and even though the two haven't even met yet in the anime as it stands, you can already tell how opposite they are... specifically because they represent two different types of support systems for people who are coming out of trauma.
Asirpa's metaphor, in terms of this, is the idea that she is a hunter, provider, and builder of community. she heals people by teaching them about her culture, because it's a very natural framework within which she can instruct these veterans on how to live as civilians again, and find purpose in that kind of life while forgiving themselves. Asirpa's method is good in, good out.
meanwhile, Tsurumi's metaphor is the concept of violence and addiction. he talks with Arisaka about their respective businesses, with that being arms dealing, and the production of narcotic drugs, and that sets up this pattern of sending people into war, getting them back when they're broken, and then getting them addicted to the way you fix them... after which they can be sent back out, fueled by gratitude to their savior, to cause and receive pain all over again. Tsurumi collects the psychologically damaged by convincing them that he's the only one who can understand them. he encourages their worst traits so that normal people genuinely can't relate to them, and then convinces them that they can only find purpose and belonging in the context of his violent conflict. Tsurumi is anti-reintegration into civilian society... his philosophy is directly opposite Asirpa. and both he and Asirpa have consumption based methods that they rely on for their goals. Asirpa has her cooking, and Tsurumi has his drugs. it's the difference between cultivating a healthy community and ecosystem, vs. getting people obsessively addicted to a cult of personality.
meanwhile, Ogata is fascinating because he only ever figures out what's good for him after he's already ruined it.
like, when Ogata meets Yuusaku, he hates him right away because Yuusaku represents all the privileges that their father gave to his preferred son. it's not even just Ogata that gets shafted by this... Yuusaku gets to remain more pure than anyone on the entire battlefield, and everyone else out there only seems to love him for it. Yuusaku is living a blessed life up high on his pedestal, while Ogata feels like he is cursed and left behind in the shadows. on some level, you have to figure that Ogata did want what Yuusaku had, or he wouldn't care so much... but because he never had even a hint of the same opportunities, Ogata sees the imperfection in this image.
so it stands to reason that Ogata's main goal with Yuusaku was to corrupt him... to drag Yuusaku down to his level. maybe then, Ogata could find him relatable, or understandable at all. maybe they wouldn't seem to be worlds away from one another if he could manage that. but Yuusaku was also trying to open his arms to Ogata and elevate him for a similar reason. they're both trying to become relatable to one another, but they can only do it by changing one another, and it puts them in conflict... which will change the other first?
well... Ogata ends that whole question before it can be answered. and yet, the answer lies in who broke first. Yuusaku was never tempted by the things Ogata offered... the ability to morally compromise himself was never alluring. on the other hand, Ogata's bitterness stems from lack... he feels the need to take what he was never offered, but he doesn't know how. and he can't admit that someone he feels was responsible for his suffering might be correct about anything. truth be told, Yuusaku's purity can feel like an accusation, to people who can't maintain the same standard. it feels like judgement, and it isn't fair. but when you take a step back and realize that Yuusaku wasn't really that judgmental of a person... it's uncomfortable to admit that he was cast as a prop for their father's ego too, same as Ogata. they might've found common ground somewhere, if Ogata had given the situation enough time.
and then Ogata starts to observe Asirpa and Sugimoto. and like... in the season 3 finale, Ogata draws a pretty clear comparison between Asirpa and Yuusaku. people who go into a violent situation like war, and expect for their souls to remain clean. people who maintain a moral goal in dangerous circumstances... and on a technical level, they aren't wrong to do that. peace is a worthy end goal, and even those who fought deserve to have it someday, regardless of what they did. and when you look at how Asirpa affects Sugimoto... when you watch, and see how she makes him feel better by cooking with him, caring about his life, and inviting him into civilian community settings... what Sugimoto is accepting from Asirpa, is the very thing that Ogata rejected from Yuusaku. the ability to heal.
and then Ogata takes matters into his own hands and destroys this.
see, Ogata was originally a member of the 7th division, and while he defected from them pretty quickly, he's still got something in common with the way most of the men under Tsurumi think. Tsurumi controls people by finding guys who are crazy and establishing himself as the one who can love them specifically for the qualities that make the rest of the world reject them. and this is especially relevant in the context of soldiers, who were damaged by the war, and who are now convinced that war is the only context in which they belong. outside of war, they don't know what to do with themselves.
Ogata might not rely on Tsurumi for that sense of validation, but I think he does feel like war was a place where an individual with his mindset actually fit right in. generally speaking, Ogata is more comfortable when everyone around him is corrupted to the point where they resemble him. he's not receptive to the idea that he might need to be the one to change.
so shooting Wilk (for that relatable dead father feeling), and then shooting Sugimoto (the one Asirpa is healing) probably made sense to him. what's ironic is, if Asirpa is comparable to Yuusaku, then Sugimoto exists in direct contrast to Ogata, because Sugimoto does feel remorse and he does want Asirpa to help him feel better. and in a way, Ogata shooting Sugimoto is sort of like him trying to kill this vision of what he might've been like, if he'd let himself change.
it also feels like a type of self harm, because if you consider Ogata to have been softening up because of Asirpa at any point throughout season three, it's already doomed from the start. Ogata shot Sugimoto. if Asirpa ever finds out the full truth about that, then Asirpa would never be on good terms with him again. that information is just a ticking time bomb, and in the end, Ogata tries to bring Asirpa lower... to corrupt her, and bring her to his level. once again, it feels like he wants the two of them to be relatable to each other somehow. but their ideological battle is, once again... can she make him any better, or will he make her worse?
in the end, it's Sugimoto that makes all the difference. Ogata failed to kill him, and Asirpa succeeded in saving him. so when Sugimoto shows up, despite his anger, he saves Ogata's life. early in the story, Asirpa had to keep reminding Sugimoto that she didn't want to unnecessarily kill anyone in their hunt for the gold. and now, Sugimoto understands. whatever hell war was to him, Asirpa shouldn't have to know it too. Sugimoto is the anti-Ogata. he doesn't want her to be corrupted. and Sugimoto himself is well enough to be able to stand for that ideal.
even so... that still leaves Ogata on the outside looking in, as someone else lives a blessed life that he has no chance of being able to partake in. and it makes you sort of wonder... at what point should he have known better? how much of this was really preventable? Ogata is a fascinating character, because there are no clear answers with him.
and with these two antagonists, you get some of the most fascinating conflicts... especially when you start to learn about different members of the 7th division and their history with Tsurumi (especially Tsukishima) or when you learn about how he relates to Wilk, Sophia, and Kiroranke's backstory as well. it's such a well written story!
I think your missing a lot of the themes about the stories. Like if you actually read and caught up jjk you would understand that Gojo isn't some experienced teacher. He's there as a show of power of him being the strongest. The entire sorcerer world relies on him and when he suddenly gets sealed all hell breaks loose. He's not some stereotypical sensei who is only there to train the students and die. We literally hear him say after yuji dies in the first few episode, he was hoping to build a group of sorceres to challenged the over traditional higher ups not just a good guy protecting innocents.
When you watch an anime learn to just enjoy it instead of disecting its specific characters and story plot. A lot of People like characters not because of there huge backstory and development, some people enjoy characters because they're cool and enjoyable to just watch. Rengoku although not getting as much screentime still captivated the audience because of who he was.
If you want to delve into why a story is bad, read the entire story first because it seems like with the animes you talk about your just judging them based on an unfinished version that being the few seasons that might have came out instead of the wide volumes of Manga. Such as your chainsawman analysis with kishibe definitally become much more prominent throughout the story, instead you based him off of the 1 season out of the possibly 4 seasons that chainsawman will be. Yes I agree vinland saga is an amazing story with tons of realistic development between characters but you can't compare the entire manga set you read to this 1 season of jujutsu kaisen.
What's your opinion on One Piece and how it handles the shonen tropes?
I haven't seen One Piece or Hunter x Hunter for that matter. I don't want to talk about something I have no context for. I'll probably end up watching Hunter x Hunter but One Piece is too long RIP.
@@Swizbbey give the one piece manga a try! It’s really long but I think you could just try it out and see if you like it
@@Swizbbey If you ever decide to get into One Piece just read the manga, The anime has a lot of pacing problems as you might've heard. Its long but definitely worth it!
@@zeposte If I ever did I would read the manga.
i have watched vinland saga season 1 and 2 and its phenominal its really unique and it was a new experince that was giving me thriils gotta admit its my top 3 or potentially 2 in my list
Sooooo glad people are appreciating VS, I watched it episode by episode as it came out and thought it was amazing but not a lot of people have heard of it at the time. It’s finally starting to get the praise it deserves and I’m here for it.
The thing is, it's hard enough to get into in season 1 but then people drop season 2 because it's not like season 1.
@@Swizbbey its really heartbreaking, because season 2 its when vinland definetly send off the last remains of shonen vibes it had. the first 9 episodes of season 2 are literally an inspection of PTSD, trauma and redemption. yes, in a grounded world, characters might need an entire arc to find themselves a purpose after tragedies, that what makes vinland S2 so special.
i was looking for a good video about seinen vs shonen but i got vinland saga vs mha 🤣
Not wrong. It’s a video about the worst of shonen vs the best of Seinen.
"I enjoyed that other thing too! But I enjoy this new thing more!" When you dont gate-keep so many people can join you in what you like
I am incapable of gatekeeping.
Might as well ask, what's better mobster movies or superhero movies. Yeah you could say superhero movies are better but you'd have to be a child to think that
Both can be good.
"Its my favorite....i felt so connected to rapists, murderers..."
The manga series Shamo features a main character who's a murderer and r*pist. He's written in a way that you don't condone his actions, but also sympathise with him and see where he's coming from. It was also my first seinen manga.
1:32 "This video isn't about shonen vs seinen"
My brother, you named the video
Lol, I know but 'Shonen vs Seinen Tropes' is too long IMO. And when it comes down to it, all that separates the two are demographic and tropes.
I hope you read Vagabond and Berserk since they would heavily help at least 1 of your pointa, but in case you havent read them ill let you figure out which one
They're so long but one day I'll read them.
@@Swizbbey well you have plenty of time untill chp 200 of vinland saga releases
Shounen is for young teens who think they are cool for liking show made of 13 yrs old is cool.
Seinen is for late teens who think they know the ins and outs of writing and are mature for liking 17+ mature stories with lots of gore.
Real men like watching slice of life moe and Yuri shows because I said it(don't quote me on that)
Moe is for men of culture. A real man like me has enjoyed many a Shoujo.