He was only forgiven by Luke tho. And redemption in Vader's case meant being saved from evil/dark side by Luke's love. Is supposed to be more so a victory for Luke, managing to save his father's soul. And about the killing jedi part, Palpatine specifically ordered to whipe them all out not just a select few
The biggest problem is the fact that for some reason GL decided that he needed Anakin to kill children in cold blood, he didn't need to go that far to show that Anakin Fell. Anakin/Vader are complicated case for several reasons, the in universe ones being that by the time of Revenge of the Sith he at best 23 years, and most of those years are spent with life long trauma on a regular basis, i am not kidding look at Anakin's life and the only peacefull time was in between PT and AotC, during which he was bullied regulary and isolated from most of his peers, and Palpatine took full advantage of that by grooming him, i blame his caretakers for allowing Palpatine who was old at the time with a child Anakin to speak in private, they gave their Chosen One to the Devil on a silver plater. The Clone Wars were arguably the best times of his life, which is saying a lot since we are talking about a Galatic scale war, since he had his brother's in arms in the Clones, Ashoka and Obi Wan. Anakin is mentally broken by the time of Revenge of the Sith and Palpatine isolated him even futher, poisoning him to the point where i question if he knew right from wrong. That is not to say he laked any agency but there were a lot, and i mean a lot of outside factors for his fall. Second there is the Mortis Arc, where the Father stated that for balance to be restored the future that Anakin saw needed to happen, that begs the question how much does free will Anakin even have if it was all fated or designed by the Force? Anakin is the Tragic Hero turned Tragic Villain. The outside universe it boils down to the fact that i highly doubt that GL knew every detail from day one and that he didn't make some changes over time so there are some inconsistencies. The biggest that i have is the wil of the Force and the Dark Side specifically, in RotJ Anakin/Vader speaks in way that suggests that he literally can't disobey his Master. My opinion, Anakin need a lot of therapy by the time he was nine, let alone 23.
@@ajdinimsirovic2757 A lot of that falls on the Jedi especially Mace who never cared for Anakin from the beginning. Obi Wan also should’ve jumped in when Anakin was being bullied but tbh being bullied isn’t much of an excuse I was bullied much of my life and although I did have weird and dark thoughts I eventually learned to move past it and beat those bullies. Anakin lacked Guidance but him being fated to become Darth Vader is the only guarantee him losing to Obi wan guarantee. Everything else in between I feel as though is choice.
@@Darth_Arashi , the biggest problem was the fact the people around him didn't know what to do with him because he was such an anomaly in the Jedi Order or wanted to use him like Palpatine, and you could make a case that the Jedi viewed either as a ticking time bomb that they couldn't be bother to fix or their weapon of mass destruction against their enemies. Their first meeting ruins their in entire relationship, the Jedi instead of seeing a boy who literally doesn't have anything,including himself, helping their own for no reason is not thanked, but judged because he fears for his mother who is in slavery, they deem him damed because of that. If they gave him a hug instead of a lecture on things he probably can't even understand then their relationship would be quite better I image.
@@ajdinimsirovic2757 exactly it’s sad because Qui Gon essentially gave them the blueprint to how to handle him. And they were so stuck in their ways they didn’t know what to do and even Obi Wan was such a big believer in the Jedi council he never questioned it until later.
One thing you gotta understand is that since Anakin was created by The Force itself and was destined to bring Balance To The Force by destroying The Sith, and by doing just that, by killing both Sideous and in turn his inner darkness as Vader, then Anakin did what he was destined to do, and by doing so, he was redeemed by The Force and was given the chance at immortality by both The Force and Obi Wan, so if you question is did Anakin deserve redemption then yes, I believe he did because while Vader did things thst were horrible and unspeakable, you gotta understand that wasn't Anakin doing those things per say, that was Vader, if Anakin was truly gone like Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Ashoka thought he was, than Luke wouldn't have sensed the good (Anakin) within Vader and wouldn't have been able to bring him back to the light. Jedi like Luke and Qui-Gon always believed Anakin could be redeemed and in the end they were right
I think you're overselling Anakin's darkness during Knightfall. Yes, he committed genocide within the Jedi temple, including the younglings, but there was no alternative of secretly being a Sith with Palpatine. By the time Anakin killed Mace Windu, there was no going back, and from that point forwards he was Darth Vader, and Anakin knew this completely. Palpatine would never have settled from doing what he did with Plagueis again, living in the shadows and learning the ways of the dark side. Palpatine wanted absolute control over the galaxy, which was something he had been working towards the entire time he acted as Chancellor for the Republic. This control of the galaxy required a total extermination of the Jedi, so Palpatine ordered Anakin to kill every single Jedi (including the younglings). Saying that Anakin killed these Jedi for the fun of it is a huge misunderstanding of his character, because he never ever wanted to kill the Jedi in the first place. You can even see as he looks around on Mustafar, a tear falls down his face, showing how much of a negative place he's in right now with his regret and anger. However, by the time Anakin fought Obi-Wan, he was far too gone to start having regrets. Even Obi-Wan's convincing didn't phase him enough to turn him back to the light, which was when Obi-Wan realized there was no saving Anakin, causing him to at least incapacitate Anakin so he could hurt no one else, and left him to the will of the Force on the shore of Mustafar's lava ocean.
@@reinybongos1953 Yes but we have also seen characters such as Baylan Skoll, or Dooku who have defected but still didn’t want to spill to e blood of Jedi, which is why when Dooku fought Obi wan and Anakin in episode 2 he incapacitated them. And Baylan Skoll more so was just getting people out of his way and he had a strong distaste for anything Skywalker due to the lengths he went. Remember at this point Anakin was one of the best duelist in the galaxy if he really wanted to he could’ve easily incapacitated many of the padawans and Jedi knights in the temple. Remember also too most of the Jedi masters were out of the temple during this time. Outside of Shaak Ti who he sneak killed and master Sundara who he killed and bested in combat.
This is a copout though. I think you and many SW fans UNDERSELL Anakin’s darkness during Knightfall. Read any scene from the ROTS novel. He makes jokes and bitter/dry quips while slaughtering Jedi, while I’ll admit the more vindictive jokes are when he’s cutting down the Separatist leaders when they are crying on their KNEES at begging for their lives. It’s EERIE the way Anakin acted that entire time. Because while YES, there was a part of him that was horrified at his actions (it’s why he kept disassociating and kept repeating that BS argument that he was ‘no longer Anakin’ so he didn’t lose his last shred of sanity realizing HE’D become a terrible person), there was also another part of him that ENJOYED it. That rage and darkness has ALWAYS been in him since he was a child because of his trauma as a slave. You say “yes, he committed genocide/killed younglings” like that’s just some small blip on the radar of his list of crimes. That’s… obviously a pretty big one. And to be honest, it doesn’t really MATTER if Anakin was crying and felt a little bit bad about it, because he still went through with it. You wouldn’t say everyone should forgive a school shooter just because he was crying the whole time while gunning down kids. And also-yes, Anakin DID have a choice, even AFTER becoming stuck in the suit. Maybe he couldn’t have left Palpatine immediately, but after he was given enough freedom, he could’ve booked it to the farthest corner of the galaxy to live as a hermit and wallow in self pity, or he could’ve gone to the rebels to offer information/be their spy. Or hell-even try to find Obi-Wan or Ahsoka, because a certain Darth Vader comic when he was bleeding a Kyber Krystal PROVES he knew Obi-Wan would accept him back if Anakin actually was truly remorseful. But he did NONE of those things, because like you said, he believed he wouldn’t be forgiven. But the POINT is that not doing the right thing because you won’t get anything out of it is SELFISH. The point is that he SHOULD’VE immediately tried to salvage what he could from what he’d done, simply because it was the right thing to do. Anakin wasn’t without any agency or power in the Empire. Palpatine gave him a LOT of power over others, even if he was still basically Palpatine’s slave. He had OPTIONS, and that will always be true. That’s literally the whole point of Luke, is it not? To PROVE to Anakin that he always had a choice to be better and admit he’d made all these mistakes for nothing. Saying Anakin had ‘no other choice’ or that he and Darth Vader are ‘separate people’ completely erases all the complexities and nuances about him. Because then you’re essentially trying to absolve him of his crimes. And if he’s absolved of all of his crimes… what is there TO make him the greatest ‘redemption (debatable. I see it more as just a salvation of his soul/only redeemed in the eyes of Luke)’ of all time? You can’t have both. It’s one of the other. The point is that Anakin was vindictive and BITTER AS HELL after becoming Darth Vader, because he was angry and depressed at his life, and so since HE was in pain, he didn’t care that the galaxy was in pain along with him. Even saving Luke, while selfless in the sense that he sacrifices himself not knowing Obi-Wan will teach him to become a Force ghost, is still in a way selfish at the end of his life, because he only does it for HIS son. Not to save the galaxy. Not really. It’s because he can’t stand seeing HIS loved one die. And all of these reasons show why it’s laughable Anakin would ever be ‘redeemed’ in any way that matters in the physical plane of the SW universe. Because the JEDI believed in redemption even after thousands of atrocities. But the GALAXY aren’t Jedi, and basically thought Jedi beliefs were weird for that. The truth is that if Anakin had survived saving Luke he’d either have been executed or locked up for eternity until he died again. 🤷♀️
No Vader didn’t deserve to be forgiven but Luke chose to forgive him because he knew it was healthier for him to forgive his father rather than hold on to his anger towards Vader. If Luke went to path of vengeance he could’ve ended up just like Anakin and he knew it, so instead he chose to end the cycle of violence.
@@alecjackman2655 Exactly. Which is why in the now legends comic people hated on Leia for speaking out when Anakin visited her as a force ghost. But failed to see it from Leias perspective, why would she forgive her father? plus Leia was always more fired up much like Anakin was when he was younger. Luke adopted more of his mother Padme which isn’t a bad thing tbh.
Considering it was fated to happen I deem it out of his control. Hell the moment he knew what he would do in the future he got his mind wiped by the father.
@@Darth_Arashi No his atrocities were part of the fate. The father straight up said the evil things he does must be done in the clone wars. It must be done because that is how he brings balance to the force. He can't get swallowed up by the dark side if he doesn't commit atrocities.
@@nencrows_4580 that’s true that it did fuel his dark emotions, but Anakin was so powerful I think he could’ve got there without slaughtering so many innocents I mean look what happened to a few of the Jedi survivors, they got turned into inquisitors.
This is a copout. If he was “fated” to do these things, then none of his choices matter. In interviews, GL says Anakin falls because of his greed and fear of letting go. THAT’S the reason he betrayed everyone. Not because of some cosmic entity forcing his hand.
@@nencrows_4580Fans who say Anakin ‘balanced’ the Force by helping genocide the Jedi to ‘even the odds’ between the Dark and the Light are straight up incorrect. In interviews, GL describes the Dark Side like a cancer. The Dark Side is what was unnatural, and it’s why Anakin fulfilled the prophecy when killing Palpatine and himself-the last two Sith. He just dragged his heels for 20 years until finally getting the job done.
Few people aware of there is no that thing as forgiveness or redemption. This is totally unreal concepts. Entropy forever imprints your deeds and sins into eternity. Nothing can change that.
the most interesting thing here is not that someone decided there, someone forgave, the force forgave him or something else. I'm talking about, imagine yourself in his place and think about it.
@@Darth_Arashi Least? No one else in the galaxy could have done it. No one. Out of quadrillions of lives in the galaxy, only Vader was able to do it. That, gets him a full pardon.
@@Halloweendm considering that he stopped Windu from destroying Palpatine and becoming the emperor it IS the least he could have done. He practically made Palpatine the Emperor in cutting down Mace.
@@leiferiksingh That isn’t public knowledge. Plus public opinion, regardless of it being correct or not, is that Windu tried to assassinate Palps. The only two people that know what Anakin did is Anakin and Palps. On a side note, you seem to have a burr up your butt about this issue. It’s Star Wars but your comments are like it’s real life stuff going on right this moment. Take a Valium or something.
@@Halloweendm I’m so glad you care so much about my mental well-being! Anyways, public knowledge of the issue is irrelevant to redemption as we the audience know the facts.
He was only forgiven by Luke tho. And redemption in Vader's case meant being saved from evil/dark side by Luke's love. Is supposed to be more so a victory for Luke, managing to save his father's soul. And about the killing jedi part, Palpatine specifically ordered to whipe them all out not just a select few
@@lordvastor98 the video is formulated in a way to ask yourself the question.
5:25 Outro: Says "I'm a Jedi"
Also outro: Has an image of a sith
The biggest problem is the fact that for some reason GL decided that he needed Anakin to kill children in cold blood, he didn't need to go that far to show that Anakin Fell.
Anakin/Vader are complicated case for several reasons, the in universe ones being that by the time of Revenge of the Sith he at best 23 years, and most of those years are spent with life long trauma on a regular basis, i am not kidding look at Anakin's life and the only peacefull time was in between PT and AotC, during which he was bullied regulary and isolated from most of his peers, and Palpatine took full advantage of that by grooming him, i blame his caretakers for allowing Palpatine who was old at the time with a child Anakin to speak in private, they gave their Chosen One to the Devil on a silver plater.
The Clone Wars were arguably the best times of his life, which is saying a lot since we are talking about a Galatic scale war, since he had his brother's in arms in the Clones, Ashoka and Obi Wan. Anakin is mentally broken by the time of Revenge of the Sith and Palpatine isolated him even futher, poisoning him to the point where i question if he knew right from wrong. That is not to say he laked any agency but there were a lot, and i mean a lot of outside factors for his fall. Second there is the Mortis Arc, where the Father stated that for balance to be restored the future that Anakin saw needed to happen, that begs the question how much does free will Anakin even have if it was all fated or designed by the Force? Anakin is the Tragic Hero turned Tragic Villain.
The outside universe it boils down to the fact that i highly doubt that GL knew every detail from day one and that he didn't make some changes over time so there are some inconsistencies. The biggest that i have is the wil of the Force and the Dark Side specifically, in RotJ Anakin/Vader speaks in way that suggests that he literally can't disobey his Master. My opinion, Anakin need a lot of therapy by the time he was nine, let alone 23.
@@ajdinimsirovic2757 A lot of that falls on the Jedi especially Mace who never cared for Anakin from the beginning. Obi Wan also should’ve jumped in when Anakin was being bullied but tbh being bullied isn’t much of an excuse I was bullied much of my life and although I did have weird and dark thoughts I eventually learned to move past it and beat those bullies. Anakin lacked Guidance but him being fated to become Darth Vader is the only guarantee him losing to Obi wan guarantee. Everything else in between I feel as though is choice.
@@Darth_Arashi , the biggest problem was the fact the people around him didn't know what to do with him because he was such an anomaly in the Jedi Order or wanted to use him like Palpatine, and you could make a case that the Jedi viewed either as a ticking time bomb that they couldn't be bother to fix or their weapon of mass destruction against their enemies.
Their first meeting ruins their in entire relationship, the Jedi instead of seeing a boy who literally doesn't have anything,including himself, helping their own for no reason is not thanked, but judged because he fears for his mother who is in slavery, they deem him damed because of that. If they gave him a hug instead of a lecture on things he probably can't even understand then their relationship would be quite better I image.
@@ajdinimsirovic2757 exactly it’s sad because Qui Gon essentially gave them the blueprint to how to handle him. And they were so stuck in their ways they didn’t know what to do and even Obi Wan was such a big believer in the Jedi council he never questioned it until later.
One thing you gotta understand is that since Anakin was created by The Force itself and was destined to bring Balance To The Force by destroying The Sith, and by doing just that, by killing both Sideous and in turn his inner darkness as Vader, then Anakin did what he was destined to do, and by doing so, he was redeemed by The Force and was given the chance at immortality by both The Force and Obi Wan, so if you question is did Anakin deserve redemption then yes, I believe he did because while Vader did things thst were horrible and unspeakable, you gotta understand that wasn't Anakin doing those things per say, that was Vader, if Anakin was truly gone like Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Ashoka thought he was, than Luke wouldn't have sensed the good (Anakin) within Vader and wouldn't have been able to bring him back to the light. Jedi like Luke and Qui-Gon always believed Anakin could be redeemed and in the end they were right
It's a great question - I had not thought of.
i’m with you darth. forgiveness is a negative. killing children is wrong. helpless children
@@darthJAM321 exactly my point.
I think you're overselling Anakin's darkness during Knightfall. Yes, he committed genocide within the Jedi temple, including the younglings, but there was no alternative of secretly being a Sith with Palpatine. By the time Anakin killed Mace Windu, there was no going back, and from that point forwards he was Darth Vader, and Anakin knew this completely. Palpatine would never have settled from doing what he did with Plagueis again, living in the shadows and learning the ways of the dark side. Palpatine wanted absolute control over the galaxy, which was something he had been working towards the entire time he acted as Chancellor for the Republic. This control of the galaxy required a total extermination of the Jedi, so Palpatine ordered Anakin to kill every single Jedi (including the younglings). Saying that Anakin killed these Jedi for the fun of it is a huge misunderstanding of his character, because he never ever wanted to kill the Jedi in the first place. You can even see as he looks around on Mustafar, a tear falls down his face, showing how much of a negative place he's in right now with his regret and anger. However, by the time Anakin fought Obi-Wan, he was far too gone to start having regrets. Even Obi-Wan's convincing didn't phase him enough to turn him back to the light, which was when Obi-Wan realized there was no saving Anakin, causing him to at least incapacitate Anakin so he could hurt no one else, and left him to the will of the Force on the shore of Mustafar's lava ocean.
@@reinybongos1953 Yes but we have also seen characters such as Baylan Skoll, or Dooku who have defected but still didn’t want to spill to e blood of Jedi, which is why when Dooku fought Obi wan and Anakin in episode 2 he incapacitated them. And Baylan Skoll more so was just getting people out of his way and he had a strong distaste for anything Skywalker due to the lengths he went. Remember at this point Anakin was one of the best duelist in the galaxy if he really wanted to he could’ve easily incapacitated many of the padawans and Jedi knights in the temple. Remember also too most of the Jedi masters were out of the temple during this time. Outside of Shaak Ti who he sneak killed and master Sundara who he killed and bested in combat.
This is a copout though. I think you and many SW fans UNDERSELL Anakin’s darkness during Knightfall. Read any scene from the ROTS novel. He makes jokes and bitter/dry quips while slaughtering Jedi, while I’ll admit the more vindictive jokes are when he’s cutting down the Separatist leaders when they are crying on their KNEES at begging for their lives. It’s EERIE the way Anakin acted that entire time. Because while YES, there was a part of him that was horrified at his actions (it’s why he kept disassociating and kept repeating that BS argument that he was ‘no longer Anakin’ so he didn’t lose his last shred of sanity realizing HE’D become a terrible person), there was also another part of him that ENJOYED it. That rage and darkness has ALWAYS been in him since he was a child because of his trauma as a slave.
You say “yes, he committed genocide/killed younglings” like that’s just some small blip on the radar of his list of crimes. That’s… obviously a pretty big one. And to be honest, it doesn’t really MATTER if Anakin was crying and felt a little bit bad about it, because he still went through with it. You wouldn’t say everyone should forgive a school shooter just because he was crying the whole time while gunning down kids.
And also-yes, Anakin DID have a choice, even AFTER becoming stuck in the suit. Maybe he couldn’t have left Palpatine immediately, but after he was given enough freedom, he could’ve booked it to the farthest corner of the galaxy to live as a hermit and wallow in self pity, or he could’ve gone to the rebels to offer information/be their spy. Or hell-even try to find Obi-Wan or Ahsoka, because a certain Darth Vader comic when he was bleeding a Kyber Krystal PROVES he knew Obi-Wan would accept him back if Anakin actually was truly remorseful. But he did NONE of those things, because like you said, he believed he wouldn’t be forgiven. But the POINT is that not doing the right thing because you won’t get anything out of it is SELFISH. The point is that he SHOULD’VE immediately tried to salvage what he could from what he’d done, simply because it was the right thing to do. Anakin wasn’t without any agency or power in the Empire. Palpatine gave him a LOT of power over others, even if he was still basically Palpatine’s slave. He had OPTIONS, and that will always be true. That’s literally the whole point of Luke, is it not? To PROVE to Anakin that he always had a choice to be better and admit he’d made all these mistakes for nothing.
Saying Anakin had ‘no other choice’ or that he and Darth Vader are ‘separate people’ completely erases all the complexities and nuances about him. Because then you’re essentially trying to absolve him of his crimes. And if he’s absolved of all of his crimes… what is there TO make him the greatest ‘redemption (debatable. I see it more as just a salvation of his soul/only redeemed in the eyes of Luke)’ of all time? You can’t have both. It’s one of the other.
The point is that Anakin was vindictive and BITTER AS HELL after becoming Darth Vader, because he was angry and depressed at his life, and so since HE was in pain, he didn’t care that the galaxy was in pain along with him. Even saving Luke, while selfless in the sense that he sacrifices himself not knowing Obi-Wan will teach him to become a Force ghost, is still in a way selfish at the end of his life, because he only does it for HIS son. Not to save the galaxy. Not really. It’s because he can’t stand seeing HIS loved one die.
And all of these reasons show why it’s laughable Anakin would ever be ‘redeemed’ in any way that matters in the physical plane of the SW universe. Because the JEDI believed in redemption even after thousands of atrocities. But the GALAXY aren’t Jedi, and basically thought Jedi beliefs were weird for that.
The truth is that if Anakin had survived saving Luke he’d either have been executed or locked up for eternity until he died again. 🤷♀️
No Vader didn’t deserve to be forgiven but Luke chose to forgive him because he knew it was healthier for him to forgive his father rather than hold on to his anger towards Vader. If Luke went to path of vengeance he could’ve ended up just like Anakin and he knew it, so instead he chose to end the cycle of violence.
@@alecjackman2655 Exactly. Which is why in the now legends comic people hated on Leia for speaking out when Anakin visited her as a force ghost. But failed to see it from Leias perspective, why would she forgive her father? plus Leia was always more fired up much like Anakin was when he was younger. Luke adopted more of his mother Padme which isn’t a bad thing tbh.
maybe because he killed the emperor but not for himself or to get anything for himself and i think he knew it would end with his death
Considering it was fated to happen I deem it out of his control. Hell the moment he knew what he would do in the future he got his mind wiped by the father.
@@nencrows_4580 fated to become Vader yes fated to fall to Obi wan yes, Fated to commit mass atrocities nah.
@@Darth_Arashi No his atrocities were part of the fate. The father straight up said the evil things he does must be done in the clone wars. It must be done because that is how he brings balance to the force. He can't get swallowed up by the dark side if he doesn't commit atrocities.
@@nencrows_4580 that’s true that it did fuel his dark emotions, but Anakin was so powerful I think he could’ve got there without slaughtering so many innocents I mean look what happened to a few of the Jedi survivors, they got turned into inquisitors.
This is a copout. If he was “fated” to do these things, then none of his choices matter. In interviews, GL says Anakin falls because of his greed and fear of letting go. THAT’S the reason he betrayed everyone. Not because of some cosmic entity forcing his hand.
@@nencrows_4580Fans who say Anakin ‘balanced’ the Force by helping genocide the Jedi to ‘even the odds’ between the Dark and the Light are straight up incorrect. In interviews, GL describes the Dark Side like a cancer. The Dark Side is what was unnatural, and it’s why Anakin fulfilled the prophecy when killing Palpatine and himself-the last two Sith. He just dragged his heels for 20 years until finally getting the job done.
Few people aware of there is no that thing as forgiveness or redemption. This is totally unreal concepts. Entropy forever imprints your deeds and sins into eternity. Nothing can change that.
the most interesting thing here is not that someone decided there, someone forgave, the force forgave him or something else. I'm talking about, imagine yourself in his place and think about it.
@@BwHorH when I imagine myself in his spot I definitely wouldn’t want forgiveness, nor would I be deserving of it I would only want to redeem.
He destroyed the Emperor, so, yes-to both.
@@Halloweendm in my opinion taking out the emperor was the least he could do.
@@Darth_Arashi Least? No one else in the galaxy could have done it. No one. Out of quadrillions of lives in the galaxy, only Vader was able to do it. That, gets him a full pardon.
@@Halloweendm considering that he stopped Windu from destroying Palpatine and becoming the emperor it IS the least he could have done. He practically made Palpatine the Emperor in cutting down Mace.
@@leiferiksingh That isn’t public knowledge. Plus public opinion, regardless of it being correct or not, is that Windu tried to assassinate Palps. The only two people that know what Anakin did is Anakin and Palps.
On a side note, you seem to have a burr up your butt about this issue. It’s Star Wars but your comments are like it’s real life stuff going on right this moment. Take a Valium or something.
@@Halloweendm I’m so glad you care so much about my mental well-being!
Anyways, public knowledge of the issue is irrelevant to redemption as we the audience know the facts.