Interesting question. They are definitely criminals. Great commentary and analysis as usual Lloyd. You are a treasure to the ex jw community. Thanks for all you do.
Lloyd, thanks for this. They should be investigated and put in jail for a very long time. Out of all communities around the world. They are responsible and accountable.
Once again i read it wrong! 😂😂😂 i saw can we cut the governing body. Yes i agree some can be cut some slack but i have a huge feeling the higher up you go and you see how the sausage is made you kinda realize where the slaughter house is and what goes on there.
service department, governing body and their helpers as well as the legal and publicity departments all need jail time and brought to accountability and responsibility for the systematic coverup of widespread CSA....all in the name of "spiritual warfare" and claiming to not "bring reproach on Jehovah's name"
No, that does not excuse their behavior because they are controlling and victimizing others in a huge way and they know right from wrong. They know all the lies and deceptions, the misdeeds in the writings and organization.
There is a difference between choosing the cult and being subjected by it. In fact, any other gang is the same. Minions and thugs do the dirty work, each mafia protecting their own and accusing the other.
Thank you Lloyd jail will wake some not all will wake because they don’t wound to wake themselves they have been domesticated as a JWOrg sucker saying it lightly thanks we waken for real justas
I take a hard pass on giving the GB a pass. My logic tells me that the rank and file, who notoriously are limited in information and subject to the removal of SO MANY previous publications that literally shine the light on the false prophecies and reworked ideology, are the ones who are intentionally kept ignorant. Maybe, and only maybe, most of them can have a pass. On the flipside, it is the GB that knows more than anyone, the history of it all. They are the ones who have intentionally buried these facts with no other purpose than to deceive the "flock". They are the ones that in lieu of just leaning on the bible, have commissioned the writing and distribution of tens of billions of publication copies that have not simply explained the scriptures, but have taken grand liberties to twist and manipulate quotes and interpretations to fit their predetermined narrative. They are the ones who, and we see it in every JW video, have employed a great deal of cult leader tactics and use of propaganda to literally misguide their followers. A great example is how they tried to spin the true news about all of their CSA troubles on the likely use of A.I. and manipulated video or that the press is just biased and lying. They KNOW that is not true. That is why I don't even believe they believe. I think the older half of that group is probably borderline atheist, but this maintenance of cover ups and spin doctoring is simply the role they've assumed as leaders. NO PASS. Even if they were indoctrinated as young men back in the 50's, they are now fully aware of how the sausage is made and are the one's making it!!
Great question! Lloyd said they are have all been involved in the inner workings of the organization. Raymond Franz, the author of “Crisis of Conscience” later defected because of what he had to be apart of. Elders can use this excuse but the Governing Body knows way too much.
I'm glad I listened to this. At first I thought yes this question makes sense they were indoctrinated. Then as you talked about CSA I'm a survivor of their CSA and I agree that they all need to be convicted. One of the elders that reproved me for fornication not RAPE died last week. And I was feeling this same way about his death. I didn't get justice so thank you for your thoughts about GB indoctrination.
PERFECT answer, Lloyd! That was exactly the nuance I expected! And I think this type of situation will apply to many, many, many leaders - religious or not. I'm thinking about corporate CEOs, for example - who can hide behind their "corporate philosophy" for their comfort, but actually know HOW MUCH is going wrond inside and the level of hipocrisy their following. Denial and cognitive dissonance can be a pretty comfortable and easy way to escape accountability.
Awesome video Lloyd and great answer to the question. I'm sure Danny's friend asked that question out of ignorance and lack of knowledge. Cut the GB no slack, show them no mercy. Keep up the good work Lloyd.
This was an interesting phone call. I know a lot of ex-JW's will excuse their parents for raising them in the organization and nearly ruining their lives but I've never heard anyone slightly make concessions for the governing body. Interesting perspective.
That's interesting, and I'm sure you're correct regarding parents. I guess I'm a little different. I actually blame my mother for the state that my life ended up in. Even my father only went along with it in the worst way, to control all of us, but my mother was a JW for several years before he finally decided it was easier to just go along with it.
@@Eric_01 No, I feel similar to you. I wasn't saying I agree that ex-JW's make excuses for their parents. I was just stating facts. I place the majority of the blame on my family since they've been in the organization for over 50 years and would never leave no matter what. I'd like to see the governing body go to jail but they would've never had any control over my life had it not been for my parents choosing to follow them.
@lancerchoate3342, I can understand why some ex-JWs feel a bit resentful towards their parents or guardians for raising them as Jehovah's Witnesses, but in most cases, the parents or legal guardians were well-meaning. They believe that they were trying to secure their children's "eternal" futures by raising them that way.
@@lancerchoate3342 , I don't know your parents, but I assume they probably had good intentions...even though those good intentions were probably misplaced.
@@Eric_01 , I'm very sorry that your father treated you and your other family members that way. This religious organization seems to provide a pathway for narcissists to continue engaging in controlling behavior or for them to find ways to continue engaging in the bullying of others.
In representing the almighty they themselves in their minds have become almighty, untouchable, answerable to no one. By their own judicial standards the entire GB should be disfellowshipped.
If we have elders here who have stepped down and left because their conscience wouldn’t allow them to continue due to corruption and CSA cover ups , instructions to destroy records …. If Ray Franz stepped down for conscience reasons … the Governing Body are 💯 reprehensible. Legal dept, helpers , lots of them. Denial is a strong thing too. I hope they get exposed properly. Something is brewing and a lot of people in the organization are going to be shocked and very upset
Short answer...Duh! That's why they are chosen. This applies to everything. Whether religious or government and many times corporations. As George Carlin says, "It's a big club; and you ain't in it." And Lloyd saw the club, first hand.
I mean..... Child molesters are usually victims themselves of past trauma. We don't give them a break. I don't think the Gov. Body should get a free pass either, especially on the scale they function on
Was Jim Jones a victim? How about David Korean? Maybe Charles Manson? Victims of their childhood traumas maybe, but gee, they grew up psychopaths and many paid dearly with their lives.
This man's friend may gain a deeper understanding of the governing body from watching some of the many varied personal experiences of prolonged mental & emotional abuses, encouraged bullying & exclusion from family & community that thousands have been subjected to... by the loving direction of these men.
If this were true, if the GB didn’t suffer from the same Cognitive dissonance, or they were somehow partially awake or awake, then I would think we would occasionally have one pulling a Ray Franz.
I’d have to disagree with Lloyd on this one. True they see the bodies and gatekeeper, at the end of the day they are still heavily inducted and think what they are doing is for the best. I in no way excuse what they do, just saying that I understand how some can be in it and not be able to reason how they are wrong. 11:16 his train of thought here proves my point.
I don't know if I fully agree with the answer. I agree with part of it, but I can point to R. Franz (which is in the minority admittedly). It was only until he spent time on the GB that he realized what it was all about. Even then, I wonder if he made the right choice leaving or if he could have done more good on the inside.
I think it’s cool 😎 Love it! ❤ More men should do the same; shake things up, but there are too many weak and unconfident men who are too afraid what others think. 🙄 Sad, but true!
@@KitKatSukiKat , Beauty standards aren't as stringently placed on men, like they are women -- but we do live in a society where men are thought of as being "weak" if they dress or act in certain ways and are basically taught by the more toxic elements of male society and socially conservative culture to care about what others think of them...especially other men when they're not adhering to gender norms and expectations. Lloyd seems to do his own thing, and as long as he's not harming anyone else, he does what he pleases and doesn't apologize for it, and he doesn't take any shit from anyone. That's rather how my husband is. That type of personality and attitude, now that...that is the kind of quality in a man that I personally find to be very sexy.
No, no slack for people who are responsible for the death and assault of anyone, let alone children. Prison for them all. Also, Lloyd, you owe me an apology for sure.
The GB looks kinda like the Rep Party imo,they see & hear thing's yet often don't seem to wanna do the Right thing but take the Perks & Pun Away. Surprised No I'm Not. 🤫
That’s a classic empathic 101 question. Giving even the abusers the benefit of the doubt and an out to rather not have to label them bad people. Here’s a very hard thing to come to terms with. There are evil people in the world. Hitler comes to mind. There are sick people in the world. Silence of the lambs comes to mind. There comes a time in all of our lives when making excuses for others must stop, and taking care of your own home and lives must happen. I’m hoping those watching this, just want to focus on their own lives at this point
No one serving god would allow children to be violated in physical verbal or any form despite what a few might escape the elders they as a whole serve god
When it comes to religious cults, and the word "cult" is something that I almost never use, many folks like to think that the leaders of such groups are all just a bunch of money-hungry scam artists -- but what's even more terrifying is the leaders most likely really believe what they claim to believe and sometimes, they get to reap the benefits that often don't find their way too many of the lower-ranking members. When they really believe, they can do just about anything they want, and their followers will think it's okay because they've been convinced that it is theologically or morally wrong to question the will of the leader...because to do so is to question the divine and will bring about the wrath of the divine upon their own heads in their minds. The followers, some of them anyway, aren't willing to place limits as to what is too extreme for their leaders to do. Heaven's Gate and the People's Temple managed to convince their followers that they needed to die to achieve some higher state of religiosity or because the outside world wanted to draw them away from the religious "truth" that they had discovered. How far is too far for most Jehovah's Witnesses? What do the Governing Body have to do for you to refuse to follow their directives? If any Governing Body member, for whatever weird reason (and as highly unlikely as it may be), wanted you to kill for them or to take your own life for them -- would you do it simply because they told you to because you think they have your best interests in mind, and that they are speaking the will of God to you -- claiming that they are the only ones with whom God can communicate His will to? How far is too far for you? How extreme is too extreme for you? Where are your limits, and do you have any at all when it comes to your faith leaders?
The refusal of blood transfusions and covering up c/s/a, and or being responsible for it! And cloaking known felons from police apprehension; just to name a few! 17:15
Absolutely! The no blood doctrine has killed people! You are so right! The child abuse, the shunning...it’s ALL gone to far, always has been a death cult. But people don’t believe they or their loved ones may need a blood transfusion to live or that CSA can happen in their congregations! Until it happens and then they are so far gone that they will watch a family member die because they can’t say:”Save his life!” and live with being shunned for saving that life. WHO is responsible for these travesties? Certainly not Scripture from the Old Testament taken out of context! It is the uneducated men at the top who make up this nonsense with no degrees behind their names, no higher education, no credentials, no Pastoral training even...😢
I disagree with Loyd. I would say they are not responsible but they are accountable. For example.. A person raised as a criminal, victim of abuse, trauma, joined gangs at a very early age, etc. they kill somebody…they are doing what they were programmed to do. They should go to prison for what they did (accountability) but they are victims of their upbringing. Yes, they can change. But even that is beyond their control. I’m a determinist. That’s just my view.
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When you become top tier in a cult, you know how the cult works. Do not let the very narcissistic GB off the hook.
Interesting question. They are definitely criminals. Great commentary and analysis as usual Lloyd. You are a treasure to the ex jw community. Thanks for all you do.
Lloyd, thanks for this. They should be investigated and put in jail for a very long time. Out of all communities around the world. They are responsible and accountable.
Once again i read it wrong! 😂😂😂 i saw can we cut the governing body. Yes i agree some can be cut some slack but i have a huge feeling the higher up you go and you see how the sausage is made you kinda realize where the slaughter house is and what goes on there.
Dang it. I used the sausage line, too. I promise I wasn't trying to steal it from you.
@@Eric_01 ❤️❤️❤️
service department, governing body and their helpers as well as the legal and publicity departments all need jail time and brought to accountability and responsibility for the systematic coverup of widespread CSA....all in the name of "spiritual warfare" and claiming to not "bring reproach on Jehovah's name"
Brilliant response Lloyd, definitely the more you see the more culpable 👏
No, that does not excuse their behavior because they are controlling and victimizing others in a huge way and they know right from wrong. They know all the lies and deceptions, the misdeeds in the writings and organization.
There is a difference between choosing the cult and being subjected by it. In fact, any other gang is the same. Minions and thugs do the dirty work, each mafia protecting their own and accusing the other.
Thank you Lloyd jail will wake some not all will wake because they don’t wound to wake themselves they have been domesticated as a JWOrg sucker saying it lightly thanks we waken for real justas
I take a hard pass on giving the GB a pass. My logic tells me that the rank and file, who notoriously are limited in information and subject to the removal of SO MANY previous publications that literally shine the light on the false prophecies and reworked ideology, are the ones who are intentionally kept ignorant. Maybe, and only maybe, most of them can have a pass. On the flipside, it is the GB that knows more than anyone, the history of it all. They are the ones who have intentionally buried these facts with no other purpose than to deceive the "flock". They are the ones that in lieu of just leaning on the bible, have commissioned the writing and distribution of tens of billions of publication copies that have not simply explained the scriptures, but have taken grand liberties to twist and manipulate quotes and interpretations to fit their predetermined narrative. They are the ones who, and we see it in every JW video, have employed a great deal of cult leader tactics and use of propaganda to literally misguide their followers. A great example is how they tried to spin the true news about all of their CSA troubles on the likely use of A.I. and manipulated video or that the press is just biased and lying. They KNOW that is not true. That is why I don't even believe they believe. I think the older half of that group is probably borderline atheist, but this maintenance of cover ups and spin doctoring is simply the role they've assumed as leaders. NO PASS. Even if they were indoctrinated as young men back in the 50's, they are now fully aware of how the sausage is made and are the one's making it!!
HEEELLLLL NAAAW.....NOOO SLACK FOR THOSE WICKED HUSTLING CRIMINALS!!!
No !!!!they know their bulls**t is bulls**t .. my answer to the voicmail question
Great question! Lloyd said they are have all been involved in the inner workings of the organization. Raymond Franz, the author of “Crisis of Conscience” later defected because of what he had to be apart of. Elders can use this excuse but the Governing Body knows way too much.
I'm glad I listened to this. At first I thought yes this question makes sense they were indoctrinated. Then as you talked about CSA I'm a survivor of their CSA and I agree that they all need to be convicted. One of the elders that reproved me for fornication not RAPE died last week. And I was feeling this same way about his death. I didn't get justice so thank you for your thoughts about GB indoctrination.
PERFECT answer, Lloyd! That was exactly the nuance I expected! And I think this type of situation will apply to many, many, many leaders - religious or not. I'm thinking about corporate CEOs, for example - who can hide behind their "corporate philosophy" for their comfort, but actually know HOW MUCH is going wrond inside and the level of hipocrisy their following. Denial and cognitive dissonance can be a pretty comfortable and easy way to escape accountability.
Awesome video Lloyd and great answer to the question. I'm sure Danny's friend asked that question out of ignorance and lack of knowledge. Cut the GB no slack, show them no mercy. Keep up the good work Lloyd.
This was an interesting phone call. I know a lot of ex-JW's will excuse their parents for raising them in the organization and nearly ruining their lives but I've never heard anyone slightly make concessions for the governing body. Interesting perspective.
That's interesting, and I'm sure you're correct regarding parents. I guess I'm a little different. I actually blame my mother for the state that my life ended up in. Even my father only went along with it in the worst way, to control all of us, but my mother was a JW for several years before he finally decided it was easier to just go along with it.
@@Eric_01 No, I feel similar to you. I wasn't saying I agree that ex-JW's make excuses for their parents. I was just stating facts. I place the majority of the blame on my family since they've been in the organization for over 50 years and would never leave no matter what. I'd like to see the governing body go to jail but they would've never had any control over my life had it not been for my parents choosing to follow them.
@lancerchoate3342,
I can understand why some ex-JWs feel a bit resentful towards their parents or guardians for raising them as Jehovah's Witnesses, but in most cases, the parents or legal guardians were well-meaning. They believe that they were trying to secure their children's "eternal" futures by raising them that way.
@@lancerchoate3342 ,
I don't know your parents, but I assume they probably had good intentions...even though those good intentions were probably misplaced.
@@Eric_01 ,
I'm very sorry that your father treated you and your other family members that way. This religious organization seems to provide a pathway for narcissists to continue engaging in controlling behavior or for them to find ways to continue engaging in the bullying of others.
Good question… excellent answer! They are responsible for all the badness and abuse. The ridiculous policies
In representing the almighty they themselves in their minds have become almighty, untouchable, answerable to no one. By their own judicial standards the entire GB should be disfellowshipped.
If we have elders here who have stepped down and left because their conscience wouldn’t allow them to continue due to corruption and CSA cover ups , instructions to destroy records …. If Ray Franz stepped down for conscience reasons … the Governing Body are 💯 reprehensible. Legal dept, helpers , lots of them. Denial is a strong thing too. I hope they get exposed properly. Something is brewing and a lot of people in the organization are going to be shocked and very upset
A valid question indeed. But there is a distinction between guilt, and intent.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
They'd get a bit of a pass if they apologized and revamped.
Brilliant answer Lloyd!
Lloyd Evans is sooo right. just talking about the elders alone and what they see and do
They are all evil/crazy.
Short answer...Duh! That's why they are chosen. This applies to everything. Whether religious or government and many times corporations. As George Carlin says, "It's a big club; and you ain't in it." And Lloyd saw the club, first hand.
I mean..... Child molesters are usually victims themselves of past trauma. We don't give them a break.
I don't think the Gov. Body should get a free pass either, especially on the scale they function on
Great explanation LE!!
Was Jim Jones a victim? How about David Korean? Maybe Charles Manson? Victims of their childhood traumas maybe, but gee, they grew up psychopaths and many paid dearly with their lives.
This man's friend may gain a deeper understanding of the governing body from watching some of the many varied personal experiences of prolonged mental & emotional abuses, encouraged bullying & exclusion from family & community that thousands have been subjected to... by the loving direction of these men.
Even Governing body members have the ability to think critically
If this were true, if the GB didn’t suffer from the same Cognitive dissonance, or they were somehow partially awake or awake, then I would think we would occasionally have one pulling a Ray Franz.
I’d have to disagree with Lloyd on this one. True they see the bodies and gatekeeper, at the end of the day they are still heavily inducted and think what they are doing is for the best. I in no way excuse what they do, just saying that I understand how some can be in it and not be able to reason how they are wrong.
11:16 his train of thought here proves my point.
You are right Raymond Franz said they are followers of followers
Even followers fall away
I don't know if I fully agree with the answer. I agree with part of it, but I can point to R. Franz (which is in the minority admittedly). It was only until he spent time on the GB that he realized what it was all about. Even then, I wonder if he made the right choice leaving or if he could have done more good on the inside.
Ooh, like your hair, Lloyd😂
I think it’s cool 😎 Love it! ❤ More men should do the same; shake things up, but there are too many weak and unconfident men who are too afraid what others think. 🙄
Sad, but true!
@@KitKatSukiKat ,
Beauty standards aren't as stringently placed on men, like they are women -- but we do live in a society where men are thought of as being "weak" if they dress or act in certain ways and are basically taught by the more toxic elements of male society and socially conservative culture to care about what others think of them...especially other men when they're not adhering to gender norms and expectations. Lloyd seems to do his own thing, and as long as he's not harming anyone else, he does what he pleases and doesn't apologize for it, and he doesn't take any shit from anyone. That's rather how my husband is. That type of personality and attitude, now that...that is the kind of quality in a man that I personally find to be very sexy.
No.
No, no slack for people who are responsible for the death and assault of anyone, let alone children. Prison for them all. Also, Lloyd, you owe me an apology for sure.
Bom dia Loyd gostaria de saber do vídeo de Selena sobre Antony Morrys .Qual a repercussão aí nos EUA.
The GB looks kinda like the Rep Party imo,they see & hear thing's yet often don't seem to wanna do the Right thing but take the Perks & Pun Away.
Surprised No I'm Not.
🤫
권력을 잡으면 무조건 부패한다!
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely!
😮 17:15
That’s a classic empathic 101 question. Giving even the abusers the benefit of the doubt and an out to rather not have to label them bad people.
Here’s a very hard thing to come to terms with. There are evil people in the world. Hitler comes to mind. There are sick people in the world. Silence of the lambs comes to mind. There comes a time in all of our lives when making excuses for others must stop, and taking care of your own home and lives must happen.
I’m hoping those watching this, just want to focus on their own lives at this point
If your caller should read 'Crisis of Conscience' he would understand the con.
David Koresh. Sorry I made a spelling error
Selena vertelomo.
No one serving god would allow children to be violated in physical verbal or any form despite what a few might escape the elders they as a whole serve god
What were the "trivial" things the elders were bullying people over?
When it comes to religious cults, and the word "cult" is something that I almost never use, many folks like to think that the leaders of such groups are all just a bunch of money-hungry scam artists -- but what's even more terrifying is the leaders most likely really believe what they claim to believe and sometimes, they get to reap the benefits that often don't find their way too many of the lower-ranking members. When they really believe, they can do just about anything they want, and their followers will think it's okay because they've been convinced that it is theologically or morally wrong to question the will of the leader...because to do so is to question the divine and will bring about the wrath of the divine upon their own heads in their minds.
The followers, some of them anyway, aren't willing to place limits as to what is too extreme for their leaders to do. Heaven's Gate and the People's Temple managed to convince their followers that they needed to die to achieve some higher state of religiosity or because the outside world wanted to draw them away from the religious "truth" that they had discovered. How far is too far for most Jehovah's Witnesses? What do the Governing Body have to do for you to refuse to follow their directives? If any Governing Body member, for whatever weird reason (and as highly unlikely as it may be), wanted you to kill for them or to take your own life for them -- would you do it simply because they told you to because you think they have your best interests in mind, and that they are speaking the will of God to you -- claiming that they are the only ones with whom God can communicate His will to? How far is too far for you? How extreme is too extreme for you? Where are your limits, and do you have any at all when it comes to your faith leaders?
The refusal of blood transfusions and covering up c/s/a, and or being responsible for it! And cloaking known felons from police apprehension; just to name a few! 17:15
Absolutely! The no blood doctrine has killed people! You are so right! The child abuse, the shunning...it’s ALL gone to far, always has been a death cult. But people don’t believe they or their loved ones may need a blood transfusion to live or that CSA can happen in their congregations! Until it happens and then they are so far gone that they will watch a family member die because they can’t say:”Save his life!” and live with being shunned for saving that life. WHO is responsible for these travesties? Certainly not Scripture from the Old Testament taken out of context! It is the uneducated men at the top who make up this nonsense with no degrees behind their names, no higher education, no credentials, no Pastoral training even...😢
Danny a nice Irish Name..
I disagree with Loyd. I would say they are not responsible but they are accountable. For example..
A person raised as a criminal, victim of abuse, trauma, joined gangs at a very early age, etc. they kill somebody…they are doing what they were programmed to do. They should go to prison for what they did (accountability) but they are victims of their upbringing. Yes, they can change. But even that is beyond their control. I’m a determinist. That’s just my view.
This gets me hard..... Hardcore into putting the skeletons in the closet 😂
Be patience followers just make sure you send us your money fools
Thank you for explaining this. Didn’t know much about it.