Tobias, on horseback, his legs gripped around the horse's torso, used a chainsaw to mow down the sugarcane. "FOR COIN" he yelled as his battle cry. Tobias, riding a great white shark, armed with a harpoon, shot at the sugarcane. Tobias, melting under heat of the blistering sun, put on a hat.
That last sentence is a little too advanced for Jenna. How about, "Tobias, cursing God as he burst into flames beneath the unfair sun, positioned a hat on his head, his face sweating from the heat of the sun. *Swish! Swish! Swish!* "
Something I wish the introductory paragraphs had was a sentence describing Tobias's hands. Harvesting sugarcane is brutal work and an important step is cutting off the leaves, which are sharp enough to cut skin if you are not careful. He would not be using a sickle - primarily used for harvesting grain - but a larger, heavier machete or cane knife. If he is supposed to be an aspirational artist who has to do this manual labor to get by, I would love to hear about his hands - the primary instruments of his art - being leathery, calloused, scarred, or cut from cutting cane.
And then some extra reflection on how it affects his ability to make art in his time off, dexterity, feeling more clumsy with the brushes, pain in his hands from work all day, does he feel like his fine motor control is blunted? So much rich stuff there, great idea
Might have been interesting if Tobias being a non believer is why he has to work. Only believers can be on holiday. Then it puts a narrative that some people only believe because it benefits them and Tobias rather work than believe in something he doesn't really.
Interesting. But people in this world get holidays whether they believe or not though. Because the culture/country celebrates things. And some people have to work anyway, because of their specific jobs. But, if there was a system to track and keep eyes on everyone to know who's religious or not, it could work. Possibly easier in a sci-fi setting though.
@@SysterYster depends on the holiday and where you are. Like in the UK, vast majority get Christmas off and most boxing day, whereas Eid al-Fitr wouldn't be a standard holiday. The suggestion reminds me of Sundays: in the UK, you may not get off Sundays as standard, but if you tell your boss your an observant Christian they'd have to accommodate you having Sundays off, and you might get first priority for religious days falling on working days. I think it's a fairly realistic world building point.
Fun Fact (Since we're talking about bad writing.): In Moreci's first book, Eve: The Awakening, there is a makeover/"let's get you a dress for your special date" that derails the plot for 30 pages (on Kindle), and the main villain monologues at the end for 13 pages. Meanwhile, the author complains about cliche villain behavior like monologuing in her videos. I will never understand the incongruity between the writing advice people give and how they actually write. I don't want to be too mean, though, since she stuck by her fiance when his back was broken, and looked after him for years of recovery. But somehow a strange sycophantic cult has sprung up around her online.
Exactly like I feel, I started looking at different reviews on the different authors in yt giving advice and I have figured that most just know what to "teach" but they don't apply what they preach
@@cuteeater6983 Yeah, I knew the makeover was coming when her friend offered to fly her to New York on his private jet to meet his mother and choose a dress. I remember thinking, "Okay, how long is this going to take and is there any purpose to it besides wish-fulfillment?" Read the whole thing and there was one moment of the protagonist feeling at home or wishing she had a family because they were being welcoming and she's an orphan, but the rest of it was just "look how fancy their apartment is, oooh limo, wealth, wealth, wealth" and that didn't need to take over for 30 pages. I stopped counting when she arrived at the event and her boyfriend saw her transformation. So mostly it was "yay, I have rich friends now" with a makeover on the jet on the way back, but it was all pointless and dull.
@@Air_Serpent I've tried to read The Vampire Chronicles. I don't think Rice can get away with it either, sorry to say. But you can ignore me, I think I hate more books than Will does in this podcast.
Maybe a weird nitpick here, but if the goal is to evoke Ancient Greece/Rome, why sugarcane instead of wheat? It’s a crop I’d associate more with Asia and/or Caribbean & American South. Edited to add: I realized there's an even bigger problem with the sugarcane in this scene. You can't swish swish your way through it with a scythe.
Sugarcane is brutal. Is hardly mindless work. Its hard to cut, sometimes it rips and gets stuck. The canes are heavy and it can get pretty sticky. You then have to tie them together. You are not nitpicking. She should have choose wheat cause she doesn't did a good job explaining sugarcane harvesting.
Yeah, when I was visiting family in guatemala I had fresh sugarcane for the first time and it's literally wood. Soft wood certainly but you need a machete to cut that stuff. She seems averse to doing any research on the things she's writing about which is a huge pet peeve of mine.
That has been bothering me for years. Also, later they have a family dinner and it's potatoes. I first thought I was irrational for being irritated by this and asked my sister (who is not a history nerd like I am) about it and she actually agreed with me. Potatoes are not a european food, they are from south america and the ancient greeks and romans would have never eaten them. You can't use a culture as an inspiration and then break all the rules. Either you make up something completely new with some vague influences or you stick to the hard rules of the culture that your using.
At 20:00 I’m going to offer an assumption/unwanted opinion. From Tobias thinking about his bad life all the time, it’s clear Jenna has never had to do a soul crushing job that you autopilot on and daydream the hours away.
It was so bizarre that he focused his imaginations outwardly. Heck even at school I daydreamed of faraway stuff out of boredom. Tobias should've become neurotic and made conspiracy theories if he focuses on making stuff out of nothing😂
Exactly! As a writer, I want an editor or critique partner to point out the problems, NOT to suggest how to fix them. That would make the work feel less like my own.
The "Thank God" thing coming up here is funny timing to me, because she had a very recent video where she talked about not info-dumping on the reader. Her specific example what TO do was "just have them say 'Thank Gods' and they'll get that the character is polytheistic" and it made me scream incoherently inside. So I'm not surprised that she did this in her book and thought having a character say "Thank God" was good world-building and sufficient to establish a point to her readers.
How I would have rewritten this: The sun and the sickle. The young man couldn't help but curse at both forms of torture. The sun burned his skin, heat beating down like lashes from a slavemaster's whip, numbing the taut muscles on his back, melting them into a single painful mass. He glared at the tool in his hand. 'A sickle!' he spat his disgust. The sickle was the worst tool to harvest sugar cane. An axe, he cried for axe, something heavy, something that could chop instead of a mere cutting tool but no, no... those who decided he had to work these fields, a witch called Moresi had given him a sickle! He was an artist and his punishment was to be treated like an unthinking slave. He knew hard labor. He was Hispanic. And he was ruggedly handsome. :)
As a Jenna Moreci binge watcher (never read her books at all tho), this is pretty informative. I am very anxious with my first / prologue chapter but this breakdown would really help me. *saves video for offline* 👀
I feel mad that the boss guy didn't give Tobias a little extra money and say it was for buying something like a cultural treat related to the festival (eg: easter egg, mulled wine or something) for his mother and sister. Adding context to the festival, the world, the sights smells and flavours and also how Tobias works to feed his family. Then Tobias could have some internal thoughts about the value of money and how even with the extra, they might not be able to have treats, but has to put on a brave face to his boss. He could have recalled previous festival years as a care-free child enjoying the sights and sounds and add more world building through those memories contrasted to his current situation. Great video. I love the nit-picking and I'm really glad I've never read this book!
My personal opinion, and I don't like Jenna as a person (she states her opinions as facts), but the only reason she can make a living as an author is because she has a huge BookTube following. If she didn't have that I don't think people would be fond of her writing.
Jenna has said multiple times that she really hates world-building, which you can really see in her work. Tobias is an artist, and I really feel like she could’ve used that to really amplify her descriptions. If you want to explain the savior to the audience maybe have Tobias remark on the frescos painted on the buildings that tell her story. Maybe a theater troupe is putting on a play. Maybe he’s imagining how his painting master would’ve had him depict the scene in front of him. There’s so much you can do and so much you can say with describing setting and culture, even from the foods people are eating. It makes me sad because I think this is a cool concept for a story but none of the actual leg work has been done to make it good lol. Edit: I literally paused this and typed it all out and then two seconds later Katie mentioned all of this lol. But the point still stands. Tobias should be using his skills and longing to be an artist to describe his world.
Freaking same. Not to the tea BUT I did notice several similarities. Obviously I'm still a novice but this was mortifying 😅 Ps. I wish you luck on your writing journey!
@@billciphergirl6049 everyone starts like this! You're right on track. Zoe Bee has excellent videos on improving prose, if you want a better foundation there.
I'm Greek on my dad’s side and I'm dying about the "everyone would be named Nick" comment because it's true. Nick, Alex, and Diane would be the big 3, with a character named Dimitri who everyone would call James/Jimmy 😂
Don't forget the Christoses! I'm Greek on my mother's side and I have two uncles named Christos and Dimitrios (who we call Jim/Jimmy/Jimbo). I'm pretty sure my mother's side of the family has all of the stereotypical Greek names or at the very least, a helluva lot of them.
The worst thing in this opening isn't that it's basic. I can handle basic openings just fine. But... We're starting a book and from the very beginning we are met with monotonous labour, echoing sounds, endless rhythm, lulling to sleep, perfectly still air, tedious, mindless work. There is such an abundance of words and phrases that evoke boredom and sleepiness. I get it was the point and sometimes you want or need to describe such moments in fiction. But not at the beginning, girl. The beginning is meant to get me interested, intrigued, or excited, not to put me to sleep. And I don't mean there must be action since page one. No. I love the expository first chapter of LOTR where literally nothing happens, but I am nonetheless interested in this fictional race being described so vividly, with subtle humour. It evokes good feelings in me, like coziness, comfort, amusement, a bit of nostalgia. Here I am greeted with monotony, boredom, tiredness. Come on.
As an author who is constantly looking to improve, this deep dive was very informative. Thank you. I'd love to see you do this with a good book as well as a few bad ones. Its certainly an interesting way to consider writing, the skills of it and the final product.
I wish there was more content like this in general. Line by line going through good books, bad books, fan submission, etc. Only other one I know of is an old series of videos by shadiversity.
“First line frenzy” by reeds is SUCH a fun series. A lot of people are turned off by the series bc they’re like iTs jUsT thE fIRst lINe but Rebeccas insight is valuable. She’s so quick!
I don't want to be mean to the Jenna Moreci, but one can easily notice that she has not worked s single day of hard physical labour in her life. EDIT: I didn't know William was going to say the same thing later on, so yay me^^
1:15:30 Wait a minute. So in our non-fantasy world, twins are uncommon but not an anomaly. But here, the author sets up that the main character and his sister being twins is SUCH anomaly that they are FAMOUS in their village apparently on that fact alone. Why? A book with better world building might go on to explain how twins are perceived in their culture. Maybe it’s not the fact that they were born at the same time but the fact that their parents didn’t immediately kill one or both of them because there’s a superstition. Maybe their father did try to kill one of them and he chose the sister (because patriarchy) but their mother stopped him and ran, so not only do we have more world building but an interesting plot element that explains why dad’s not in the picture and the sister’s disability. Maybe the main character has some sort of survivor’s guilt from his father choosing his sister over him. Maybe this is affects his attitude towards his mother. Instead, from how this idea is written, it just seems that twins are a medical anomaly. There’s just seems to be no reason for these characters to be twins. If his sister was a year younger, nothing in the story would change. Of course, twins don’t need a reason to exist but this is a story where little details like that are puzzle pieces that eventually connect to form one cohesive picture.
I’m thinking back to “The Poet X” by Elizabeth Acevedo, where her main character is a twin. Even though that book is a contemporary and could probably get away with a more “cuz why not” attitude, Acevedo utilizes the fact that her main character is a twin in order to strengthen the story’s themes. Her twins are written like yin and yang. The main character and others will compare her to her brother, who’s the “perfect child”. And that idea ties itself into the whole purpose of “The Poet X”. Plus it’s something that many readers can relate to, even if they’re not a twin! I wanted to include this under my first comment because it’s honestly my biggest pet peeve when writers include details that don’t actually matter to the story. It’s so frustrating because I find that the most enjoyable part about reading is seeing how two writers will take the same idea but go in opposite directions. That’s why I love Greek mythology (which could lead to another tangent on how Jenna Morecei does NOTHING with her Greek-inspired setting. Like, I’m only a hobbyist for Greek myths but there are so many missed opportunities in “Savior’s Champion”. I’m not expecting a Madeline Miller level of storytelling but PLEASE GIVE ME SOMETHING JENNA.)
One way the info dumping could be fixed would be by having Tobias walking through the town, he hears the pastor give this long schpeal about the savior blah blah blah. And he just dissmisses it as boring nonsense. Not only do I think this would characterise Tobias better, but it would also give us the lore we need to continute the story.
Oh my go YES! This is what I was looking for as an amature writer! God, I'm so sorry I can't support you on Patreon, but if you ever do more of this type of videos, I will literally cry
A little late to the party, but I'm really glad I found this. A writer myself, I'm glad to take in as many viewpoints as I can about advice, editing, publishing, other readers. It's hilarious to me that I've been subbed to Jenna's channel for a couple years now and there are so many dings she complains about in her own work! 🤣
As someone who's finally prepping to write a second draft, this video was incredibly helpful in providing insight on what to work on while editing. I would like to see more of this content!
wait a hot second the original savior had VIOLET eyes?? as in that one tumblr post that went around in like 2013 about “there’s this super obscure genetic mutation that gives you ~purple eyes~ and it’s totally legit”💀💀💀
Will: This is expository and bad info-dumping. Katie: Why isn't there artwork or children't plays that could be used for this exposition? Me: Katie, those are my thoughts exactly. *insert applause GIF here* Edit: Also, I think that it could work if either Tobias or Tobias's former master was commissioned to create some artwork in honor of the Savior's birthday, and the artwork in question was specifically about the origin of the Savior.
(Italics) Swish, swish. (New paragraph) His back flared in pain with each swing of the sickle. Two years in, he still fought to balance the sun's heat with the monotony of his labor. The air offered no breeze. With a harsh breath, he dropped the sickle and pulled the shirt from around his neck. Already soaked, the fabric did little to dry his forehead. He slapped the shirt over his shoulder. (New paragraph/italics) Swish, swish. Sugarcane stalks dropped with each swipe. However tedious or mindless, it was necessary work. He sought details in his labor - the color of each stalk, nicks from his sickle - anything to offset the banality. The setting sun bled orange between the clouds. Though the sky changed color, the heat persisted. How was that fair? (New paragraph) A man approached from the distant sugar mill. Day's end already? He saw the man wave as if in answer. Both relief and dread stirred within him. He could do more work, and under present circumstances he felt he needed to.
You guys should seriously do more videos like this. This is so damn helpful. Truly. Also, genuine question here, but is the critique about Tobias being too whiny objective or subjective? Because my MC is vastly more whiny than Tobias. (The rest of this is very ramble-y.) I know whiny characters are hard to like, but in my case it's a large part of my MC's character arc. It's more of a fear-based whininess than Tobias's snootiness. Meaning my MC cries actual tears a lot and reacts negatively to things that upset and scare him. Oh, and he's 12, so I know a literal child can get away with this behavior more than a grown adult man (pretty sure the book says at some point that Tobias is 22). Anyways, do you mean whininess is always bad? Or just in the case of Tobias and how Moreci presented his attitude?
I know you're not asking me, but I thought I could give my two cents on this. I've read a few stories with whiny characters and it's usually a huge turnoff. What I've noticed though is that if you can promise your readers that this is going to change, that we're going to see this person grow, then they'll be more willing to keep reading. Hope that helps :)
Personally I think being whiny is fine, but like any "annoying" trait, it has to be used carefully. Paragraphs upon paragraphs of whining is just heavy-handed and exhausting to read. Even whiny people aren't doing that 24/7; if they are, that's not a very interesting character to read about. And the level of whining people can tolerate-even as a part of a character's arc-is very, very subjective.
I would say a character is like a dish, you need to balance flavor profile or else it’ll be hard to swallow. If you want a particularly acidic (whiny) character than you’ll need some sweetness/Salt/Spice/Savory aspects as well to balance. Some readers want to buy a straight up shot of vinegar, but you’ll attract more if you did more with it. I will also say while kids can be whinny there’s usually a level of naïveté to what they’re complaining about as well as a relatable aspect to it (bitching about school or homework, like damn me too back then). Litera children aren’t the same as characters that are children so at the end of the day there’s no “free pass”. Knowing you’re character flaw is good but you’ll need more. It really depends on your target audience that you’re wanting to persuade to read this story over any other on that theoretical shelf.
I really enjoyed this! I get so much value out of listening to this kind of 'nuts and bolts' editing work. There is so much benefit to actually see how it works in practice instead of just being told generalities. Some of the things I already do in my own writing, but others were new to me and great to learn. I'd imagine that it is a bit of a niche topic. But I would adore to see more in this vein.
Really loving this video! There's something refreshing to see others edit another work and give tangible ways to fix and improve bad prose. I've never read the original (just watched all your vids on the books and that's as much as I care to read, lol), but having a conversation about how to improve is fantastic! I love the back and forth, and discussions of different ways to edit. Great work!
I think the one thing that gets me with listening to people talk about Moreci's writing (and having *tried* to read her book about writing) is how the book she wrote and what she how she talks about the book she wrote are so wildly different. I used to watch her channel a lot, but all her advice seemed either so generic it was basically useless, or so subjective that it was also basically useless. I feel like she'd do much better as a book-tuber/book reviewer than she does as a writing advice giver. Partly because she doesn't seem to actually apply any of the advice she gives to her own books? She talks a lot about giving characters agency and character arcs and not letting them be static, but then she does exactly that in her own book? make it make sense
47:28 I know this is a fantasy setting based in Greek culture or whatever, but I remember stumbling on a video where it explained why flags don't have purple color in them and it continued that in general purple was used by royalty. The reason is that purple was very expensive and took a lot of labour to obtain (it came from a specific snail I believe). Just a fun fact more than criticism.
She obviously hasn't stepped foot in Greece (or did some hours of googling) either cause she depicts the setting inspired by it like a desert with sugarcanes 😂
I really love your videos, every time I'm editing my work I'm just imagining the three of you discussing it and think - How would Will make fun of me for this? Thanks for all the good advice!
I REALLY love this type of video. I'm genuinely taking notes, even though I'm nowhere near this kind of editing for my own WIP lol. I'd never heard of "abstract verbs", but it makes a lot of sense and I'll definitely be looking out for them once I am doing this level of editing. I'd love to see you guys do this with a good book too or with each other's writing, as much as you can learn from doing this with poorly-written books.
This video is a interesting look into the editing process. You bring up good point, you bring up nitpicks, Both is important for an author and they can always choose to ignore the advice.
I knew this book was bad, but now that I’ve seen the actual text, looking at it closely… I’ve read Moreci’s first book, Eve The Awakening, when it first came out in 2015 (I believe that’s correct, around that time) and that book I swear was better written then this one. I would really love to see you guys, review or chapter critique, Moreci’s first work because I swear she’s regressed and each new work of hers gets worse. Great video, I learned a lot from this video (great advice to keep in mind as I work on my own fantasy book). Would love to see more of these.
I haven't read any of her books but maybe Eve was better in the sense of being set in a modern-ish world with fantasy/Sci Fi elements? I watched the Videos from Will, Katie & Maria on the Saviours Series and from what I understood the world building & general purpose of things is something Jenna severely ignored. So Eve was maybe better because she had a modern world with a twist, so the story seemed more grounded?
@@theaargent7056 I have a copy of Eve, and I skimmed the opening paragraphs and there is a big difference. Granted, Eve’s is nothing great, but the big that I got from Champion’s opening is it’s dull, not really atmospheric. And Tobias comes off as, like they said, whiny. In Eve there is atmosphere I feel, a good setting of the scene. Peaceful…and then it goes all to shit because protagonist watches her parents die in a car crash. Again, not good…but Eve didn’t feel it wasn’t trying to hard and it’s not suppose to be super serious. Overall, I personally feel Eve is a better work (guilty pleasure of mine) because it’s less…well, less what the unresolved gang have pointed out here and their reviews.
This video is so helpful. I have a hard time getting into the editing mindset and now I have some guidelines to follow. :D It would be interesting to pick your favorite book/a well written book and tell us what they did well, or if there are things you could still improve. I agree with Will, mindless repetitive work can help to give you time to think and let ideas simmer. I feel like I get some great breaks in story ideas when I'm doing chores like taking copies of files, doing the dishes, etc...
I've said before that with craft it's usually easier to see when something doesn't work than it is to fix it. I'll take another craft (sewing) as an example. Trying on a item of clothing or pattern, at my hobby level, I can see if it doesn't fit. But there are several steps between seeing that and knowing how to fix it. For example understanding that the issue you see in the lower front of your shirt is actually caused by pattern issues on the back side or even shoulder area. And even after you understand that, you will have to know how to fix the pattern so that your sleeves still work with the new back piece. Experienced seamstress or tailor can do all that easily.
English is not my first language, so correct me if I am wrong, but I think the word echo can be used meaning just the repetition of a sound after the original sound has stopped if used as a verb. No need to be in a cave/cavern or hollow chamber. So technically, it still works in the context used. Although, I agree that the entire paragraph -and book, for that matter- can be edited/written better.
No, it doesn't work. Echoes are a sound you only hear when sounds bounce inside a space. The only time you hear echoes outside is if there's lots of thunder or something echoing through a mountain range or a ravine or something, but out in a field in the open random noises don't echo.
The thing with “oh my god” and Moreci not explaining how the world is monotheistic and the savior is basically a Jesus-type cryptid makes me think she was working on the assumption of monotheism as a cultural norm. Which is bad writing on every level. It’s discriminatory, it’s unimaginative, it fails to convey literally anything about the world. Fantasy is a realm of possibilities and the author should make no assumptions about how the reader is going to interpret it. I’d honestly call this less Greek-inspired and more biblical inspired, because all I can see is that Moreci is writing bible fanfic at this point.
A way would contrast that with the other not evil empire that has othe gods and is very grounded polytheist. Making sure how culty the "saviour" thing really is. Could be. I doubt that thought is into it. It could add conflict to her role making it way too culty. While ing "normal" with people stillbeing people. I get not what wa thought o, but it can work,i youhave enough contrast to show how culty it is. And makes sense why she is hiding her identity. And probably add to he themes of figureheads even. Beside it would make more sense that the saviour might be the godess. or high lady or whatever name she could have. Or at least use godess.
And also how it's literally a White Savior. I don't know if she thinks it's because brown people can't sparkle in the sunlight but that was a big ol' yikes right away.
I always wonder at the writing process whenever I come across books like this, like, did they get anyone to read this before they published? Anyone at all? I would probably love the LitRPG genre if it wasn't basically this most of the time. Love this "walk through." There's so much to learn, not just as a writer, but as an editor too. And yes, I'm totally here for how you'd critique each others' writing!
As someone who watched Jenna when she first started YT, she has a bunch of 'yes men' in her corner apparently. It started fun and strong and very quickly went downhill, objectively. She doesn't take criticism well lol
I think that a character speaking formally would make sense in Tobias' case. Like, if he talked like a hick to other people, but in his head he used big words (not scientific words but just formal ones) when thinking to himself, it would reflect his former rich kid status as he probably would have gotten a better education before becoming a peasant. Unfortunately, that's not what the book does
I followed Jenna back when she was publishing her first book Eve, and I remember going to the Amazon page for her book and reading the preview (which was around 150 pages), and feeling so disappointed at how bad the writing was. I was more skeptical when this book came out, and finally read it by signing up for audible and choosing it as my free book, hoping she had improved (especially since she has discontinued her first book-I hoped she was improving and had stopped selling her other one because she didn’t feel like it represented her skill). The writing is only marginally better, and I suspect the audiobook narrator did a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of my limited enjoyment of the book. I stopped following her stuff after that
1:10:38 Yes! And it would have shown some banter between him and his mother like having it be playful teasing but in a mean way. One of my favorite examples of this is in this movie called Gabriel, Gabriel and his mom have a clear relationship within the first time we see them on screen, what made me think of this movie is so Gabriel came home from a mental hospital and was late coming home and so his mom was worried and so when He gets to the house, she’s was worried sick but also so glad that he’s home and when they walk into the house, she has her arms wrapped around his waist and she laughs and makes a comment about how skinny he is and she asks him what he’s been eating and he says “Food” trying to be a smart Alec, later in the scene she is kind of hovering around him and being kind of a overprotective mom by asking him all these questions and he tells her to calm down and that he’s only been home for 5 minutes and she apologizes because he’s upset, he sits at the table and she sits next to him and takes off his beanie and ruffles up his hair and she says that he looks good and he says “5 minutes ago you said I looked Skinny and tired” and she smiles and says “and good, all of the above”. They have such great banter with each other ( I just absolutely love that movie, I highly suggest that people watch it unless your not in a good headspace then maybe don’t because this movie is sad) But going back to TSC, it would have been great to see the dynamic between Tobias and his Family with like I said funny/mean banter, it also would let us get a glimpse into how his mother and sister are as people, it’s a really big missed opportunity.
05:40 The swish of the sickle Generic, not evocative Use specific words Unrealistic description of harshness of manual work 14:55 With a harsh breath Description of actions is not important 18:14 Sugarcane stalks plopped Unrealistic description of thoughts during exhausting work 22:04 A man scuttled Character sounds whiny After 310 words, we don't have much information about the story 27:05 The man waved Confusing, ambiguous sentence 28:14 Dropping his sickle "Recalled" sounds academic Common mistake is to use too formal or too informal words Editors can't help writers fix pervasive writing issues. Writers need to do their own homework and improve their skills. 31:57 The man reached his side "Coin" is ill defined as type of money "God" is ill defined in the story Writer shouldn't blame readers for not noticing details. Details should be clear. 35:10 He cocked his head Small inconsistencies in descriptions and word choice, destroys how real the world feels "Apologies" doesn't sound like a word he would use Use specific, not abstract, words 38:49 Tobias dumped the coin Say the name of the holiday, not generic "holiday" In silences, readers get intrigued. Don't explain everything. 42:24 You say that every day 44:46 The town materialized Use specific descriptions 48:15 The town was only this beautiful Describe smells 50:45 The history of The Savior Infodumping. Should not read like a textbook. Filter it through character's POV. Specificity Use puppet play, murals, to tell the history Give cultural, not academic, viewpoint 55:22 And then she was born 59:55 Today was not that Girl's birthday 1:02:30 Yes, today was truly a wondrous holiday 1:05:55 Tobias nodded No sense of who Tobias is. We don't know his opinions. We don't see him talking to people. 1:07:00 The smell of boiled something Interaction with mother not convincing Establish character dynamics, early 1:14:10 Tobias dug the coin purse Supposedly Greek setting but names are not Greek 1:16:56 He navigated his way Repeated information Awkward use of SAT words by characters 1:19:00 Wrap up Needs faster pace Make characters more lovable
I have nothing against the use of "echoed in his ears" or that the sun "beat down" (that's a very common expression actually, so I don't see why that's a focus?). I felt more that the use of "continued, remained" are more annoying to use in such close proximity. "The air stood still and the sun beat down over him like fire" I think would work better? removing the "it was" (passive) and the "remained/continued" to be more in the moment/more engaging.
I agree, there’s some things they critiqued that seemed like common colloquialisms. Or when they said some words were formal but it seemed like they were pretty common words to me.
There is one moment in TSS where Leila refers to herself and it is not punctuated. I laughed so hard at how she blasphemed herself while she verbally tore her victim apart
I’m glad I crossed this channel in the wake of my botched sci-fi novel launch last week. I don’t have any reviews on my amazon page, but I know that my prose, structure, and dialogue aren’t this bad.
"Some say Her appearance was stunning, that a glimpse would leave people dazed and faint. Some claim Her eyes carried a wisdom, a knowing of Her power before She was old enough to know anything at all. Some say She was made by IKEA and assembled by a teen wolf. Some say when She sleeps, She hangs down by feet like a bat. All we know is, SHE'S CALLED THE STIG!"
This gives cool professor energy lol. I haven’t checked out the rewrite videos until now but I love the format. It’s a good mix of genuinely helpful advice and delicious roasts of garbage. :p
I have next to no experience writing or editing, but I would do the first paragraph like this: Tobias felt his mind go numb. Wether it was the rythmic sound of the sickle or the repetitive movement of his arms, he couldn't decide. The feeling of the harsh rays of sunlight on his skin was the only thing keeping him sane, for the pain in his arms had been driving him a step closer to insanity with each passing day for the past two years
Why didnt she use the sickle like toshow how muscular he is, like katie said , how his toned body was used to the rhythmic movement of the sickle and yet he knew he would sleep well today in his well deserved rest. He never thought about about how it would be with company, relaxing his arching arms in a warm embrace, h always gave to his family, but what i he would have that, someone that took care of him when his body arched, he needed a rest? Bu hat wasnt his life, sohe could just do his current duty to cut,and cut,and cut, as he knew from practice well enough. Ok that would be rewriting him , but if thats a romance novel, youcanmake him be grateful or his amily, he loves them, an he has no problm with his current life, but he i romantic, he daydreams, but he i also a hard worker thats just daydreaming of , its supposed to be a romance, company to take him away of the burden, he i fine with,h loves them, he just also i frustrated. Like making grateful, content, hardworking but rustrated could set up a romance way better, and daydreaming. And strong, how used he is to physical hard labour. Also if he woul be surprised, thank you and i wish you a great holiday, as he thought about some nice things he could surprise hi siter with that holiday. Also they could lead antasy cows parade, like realvillages sometimes still do, the are rituals, hellpeople gooten eating after the church. To talk, gossip. Which people still do. Also there is beautiul rural artwork. They did and still do decorate. You can have artist sell handmade little wooden statues, horses. Wait, tell amateur sculpting saviour statues. Bards, you can have bards tell a tale of one of the saviours. Noway there woulnt at leat one bard try to make a buck. Or better , he listens to the song telling off the saviours labours, in the church. And maybe bards on the festival tell other, Cant she do visit a bloody culturally rich village to steal, and maybe dolarn a bit basic farmwork. . She could also go outof his way, and say nevermind, food is ready soon, i will call, till later. I she wants to avoid that.
Yeah one thing I just noticed a lot about Jenna's writing is some very redundant phrases that ultimately become repetitive because 1) they fluff the book up and 2) don't contribute anything because I understood from the context that e.g. he's not into the Savior. Like at the beginning, adding "put off by the greeting" has no purpose. This is one of things that really bothered me about Savior's Champion upon closer inspection.
Not that you need anymore ideas, but how cool would it be if every Savior had a daughter who became the next Savior, but one of them also had a son? And the son didn't inherent any of his mother's powers, and was forever living in the shadow of his sister's glory like how James was the brother of Jesus. He could be a character in the court playing a role in the mother-gothel-ing that Leila (or Cosima, whoever the Savior was) would have to win over to her side from Brontes.
Late to this, but she also doesn't name her main character until almost the second page. (over 10 paragraphs into the story) We never get a proper name until a side character names him. Why would you not name your character as soon as possible? It creates distance from the thoughts and feelings of the character, which might have contributed to your disconnect of Tobias while you were going through this. It feels like this was supposed to be a cinematic opening, but the issue is that a book is not a film, and vice versa. With a book, you need to ground the reader in the character as soon as possible; a film can afford to be more disconnected from the characters because it has the benefit of a visual component that intrigues us to sit and watch. This is a personal rule of mine that when I'm writing third person, I name my character as soon as possible. I wonder if this started out as first person, and then the author switched to third because it was easier; it would explain all the pronoun usage instead of a proper name here and there.
Yeah, I’ve gotten a strong feeling from most writers these days that they aren’t really writing books, but screenplays for the movie adaptations that they actually want.
6:40 The swish of the sickle, cutting the cane, echoed in his ears as the searing sun beat down on his back through his sweat soaked shirt. His muscles moaned. His sinews strained. His tendons were tortured. His heart hammered. His breath burned. Do you get why she chose the word "Echoed" yet?
50:44 the fact that Jenna Moreci actually talked about info dumping in numerous occassions and does it herself is just saddening. The fact that I actually supported her writing advice at one point 😢right now whenever I search up a writing query I kinda just avoid her videos
I don't personally mind all the abstracts that Will complains about? Some of the word choice I think could have been stronger, but some of them I feel have more of a vibe to them while conveying what's happening well enough for me to still visualize it, while the more concrete alternatives feel too stiff or needlessly specific. I would put them down more to taste than talent. That aside: "In the shortest amount of time, the realm had surpassed its ORIGINAL greatness" is also such an odd line when the book tells you a few paragraphs earlier that the realm was in total disarray and nigh inhospitable leading up to this Girl's birth. It feels like the first and second half of the summary about the savior's origins were written in separate writing sessions, or like lines were added during revision that Moreci liked in isolation without stopping to review and make sure they connected with the scene they were placed in.
I know this is for editing (and it gives amazing advice) but reading the "history textbook" excerpt reminded me of the rewrite videos and makes me think if there was a religious split (which is implied by the skeptics became believers) why not just make it splits between the gods people worship? They pray to who they think is going to save them from the drought/wars/etc etc. until the Savior pops up and turns around Thessen's situation so everyone worships her Edit: This is also a nitpick but if the Savior's powers are associated with the sun, wouldn't sun-tanned skin be a beauty standard and work that requires you to be in the sun be more respected than other lines of work? It makes sense for "omg your skin is too tanned, stay out of the sun" to be said in the modern world bc our beauty standards are different but not in this one. That could also make Tobias (maybe even a lot of other newer field workers) a bit bitter because they're experiencing the difficulties of hard labor yet no one really wants to hear them complain - considered to be the same as being bitter towards the Savior, who is the reason they even have proper agriculture/crops, which could be a reason he gets a contrarian "ugh screw the Savior" attitude instead of just For Plot Reasons (TM). It would still be dumb to hate the person literally keeping the kingdom safe but it would make more sense as a way for him to channel some bitterness (especially because he had to abandon what he loved - art - in favor of field work which pays well since it's respected, and he can't complain about being unhappy about that) (Also missed opportunity on Moreci's part to describe that moment after the temperature cools when it's been hot all day and your clothes basically become a second skin from sweat)
You dont cut sugar cane with a sickle. A sickle is not a scythe, and you use machetes or cane knives to cut cane...you can also use bundles of canes to simulate limbs for test cutting. Several missed opportunities for the gladiator portion of the story. Lack of experience shows again.
Coming back to this after a while and pondering! -The "Fabric was sopping wet but he mopped his head with it anyway" is quite interesting in that it's telling. It's something that points to the "Jenna hasn't done any hard labor ever." Since there's no indication that he's going to regularly dunk his shirt in a well of water to cool off, you'd have to assume that it's wet with his sweat, right? And like you said, the coolness of it would probably feel good, but the "anyway" implies that it's bad in some way. The conclusion that I draw from this reads as "The fabric was stinky and sweaty and gross, but Tobias was so worn out that he still wiped it on his forehead." It makes me want to go back to the Savior's Series (god help me) just to see what else is like this. -I can see "Was it the end of the day already" working in the sole context of being focused at staring at the sugar cane, no thoughts head empty, swish swish etc, oopsie doodles the sun's gone. The phrase does have a bit more serenity to it though, opposed to a "Thank fuck, the day's over." -"It was there and you just didn't pick up on it" infuriates me because just becomes a handwave when someone finds a plot hole, because it can just trick readers into fnafing story into a book that doesn't have it. I do think it's an acceptable response for things like "Wait, I didn't know that all the men were circumcised!" since that's not tangential to the main story. Or for things that are just blatant like "Wait, I didn't know Kaleo was supposed to be a villain all this time!"
i had another thought about the first point you brought up, although for me it felt like a characterisation moment?; tobias is shown to maybe not be the type of person to care about the grosser things out there, since he was willing to mop his head with a dirty, sweaty shirt. it was emphasised in such a way (“…with it anyway”) that made me think it was a personality trait, although it doesn’t seem to come up in the book ever again so ig that’s just a thoughtless bit of information. maybe this comment is totally wrong since i’ve never done hard labor like the one described lol, but i thought it was interesting to share the kind of perspective/reading another person would get if they were unfamiliar with tobias’ situation.
The detail you go into on the first paragraph would be horribly inappropriate. An editor is not a ghost writer, and your focus on the line overlooks the issue of the generic opens. It becomes a re-worded generic opening.
I liked Eragon. Eldest was good for the first read, but I found myself skipping entire chapters on rereads. Brisignr had the same problem. The final book, I just couldn't get into it.
Some of these (as a reader) I actually disagree with. Haven't read the book myself, and I'm not trying to say there aren't issues. But I'd rather have the sun bleed through the clouds. If I want to see a photograph, I look at a photograph. I don't take a book for that. Figurative or even occasionally absurd use of words is stuff that writing can do well unlike most other media. And at least for me, often the "non photographic" word choices create more vivid images in my head. It's pity if they get all edited out for banal accuracy
I'd love to see you breaking down a really effective first chapter to say why it works If you want another terrible book, The Emperor's Blades (after the prologue) starts about 40 chapters before it should
The chapter is pretty bad but I think you guys went a bit overboard on the nitpicky side of things to be honest. The time you spent on the “nice to see you too” was completely unnecessary for example. I get that the writing is bad but the nitpicking on completely passable things made it seem way worse than it actually is.
You need a machete, not a sickle. Sugar cane is hard. You can’t swish through a cane field. I'm from Costa Rica. We have sugar cane in the backyard. You have to hold it with one hand and strike with the machete many times. The blade may get stuck. You wrestle the cane, you hack it, it’s tough work. Also, the cane is heavy. I mean, you don't throw a bunch of cane stalks at someone. You could hurt them. Seriously
Exactly. Even bamboo shoots, which are much softer and thinner than hardwood trees, require some hacking some chop through, and sugar cane is a lot harder than bamboo.
I feel like a lot of her answers is along the vein of “A Wizard did it!” (But like, magic/ savior) for getting out of answering the actual world building question. Like someone criticized that the savior could only have daughters, saying it wasn’t realistic and she’s like “Magic! Duh.” Forget what she said exactly but it was like, “you’re not questioning *X magical system,* but not a magical uterus?”
Tobias hacked at the sugar cane all day in the blistering heat, until he'd gathered his last stack. Mr Van Overseer strolled over, pinching his moustache thoughtfully before throwing Tobias a coin purse, nodding at the cane. "i'll take it" Tobias grinned, pulling a face muscle doing so, but managed a "Thank you Sir" before strolling wearily down the hill to the festivities in the village. The Apple festival was in full swing, the heady perfume of wildflower wreaths that decorated the shopfronts drifting in the cooling air. There he got a juicy candied apple and cheered the hell up.
When the book said Tobias was using a sickle, I thought he was harvesting grain or something, but then, it was revealed it was sugar cane, and my Reunionese heart bled a little. Where I live, sugar cane is a big part of the economy, and people are harvesting it using a cane saber, not only because the stalks are thick and kinda sturdy, but also you have to remove the leaves, and using a sickle for that would be stupid...
Wow, guys. There I was assuming her writing would be tight and the story gripping and I was feeling kind of inferior because Jenna works so hard teaching how to write books ( and is funny and entertaining and educational) but if the rest of the book is like the first page I think it's a shame she's not spending time getting more feedback or reading critically ....I think she needs a nice Critique Partner ....her writing reminds me of my earlier drafts.
Tobias, on horseback, his legs gripped around the horse's torso, used a chainsaw to mow down the sugarcane. "FOR COIN" he yelled as his battle cry.
Tobias, riding a great white shark, armed with a harpoon, shot at the sugarcane.
Tobias, melting under heat of the blistering sun, put on a hat.
I’m dying. -Kt
I am going to use this in my next campaign! Hahaha. Thank you.
That last sentence is a little too advanced for Jenna. How about, "Tobias, cursing God as he burst into flames beneath the unfair sun, positioned a hat on his head, his face sweating from the heat of the sun. *Swish! Swish! Swish!* "
Something I wish the introductory paragraphs had was a sentence describing Tobias's hands. Harvesting sugarcane is brutal work and an important step is cutting off the leaves, which are sharp enough to cut skin if you are not careful. He would not be using a sickle - primarily used for harvesting grain - but a larger, heavier machete or cane knife. If he is supposed to be an aspirational artist who has to do this manual labor to get by, I would love to hear about his hands - the primary instruments of his art - being leathery, calloused, scarred, or cut from cutting cane.
This is such a wonderful point!
And then some extra reflection on how it affects his ability to make art in his time off, dexterity, feeling more clumsy with the brushes, pain in his hands from work all day, does he feel like his fine motor control is blunted? So much rich stuff there, great idea
Might have been interesting if Tobias being a non believer is why he has to work. Only believers can be on holiday. Then it puts a narrative that some people only believe because it benefits them and Tobias rather work than believe in something he doesn't really.
oh, that'd be interesting
Interesting. But people in this world get holidays whether they believe or not though. Because the culture/country celebrates things. And some people have to work anyway, because of their specific jobs. But, if there was a system to track and keep eyes on everyone to know who's religious or not, it could work. Possibly easier in a sci-fi setting though.
@@SysterYster depends on the holiday and where you are. Like in the UK, vast majority get Christmas off and most boxing day, whereas Eid al-Fitr wouldn't be a standard holiday.
The suggestion reminds me of Sundays: in the UK, you may not get off Sundays as standard, but if you tell your boss your an observant Christian they'd have to accommodate you having Sundays off, and you might get first priority for religious days falling on working days. I think it's a fairly realistic world building point.
Fun Fact (Since we're talking about bad writing.): In Moreci's first book, Eve: The Awakening, there is a makeover/"let's get you a dress for your special date" that derails the plot for 30 pages (on Kindle), and the main villain monologues at the end for 13 pages. Meanwhile, the author complains about cliche villain behavior like monologuing in her videos. I will never understand the incongruity between the writing advice people give and how they actually write.
I don't want to be too mean, though, since she stuck by her fiance when his back was broken, and looked after him for years of recovery. But somehow a strange sycophantic cult has sprung up around her online.
Exactly like I feel, I started looking at different reviews on the different authors in yt giving advice and I have figured that most just know what to "teach" but they don't apply what they preach
30 pages?! I'd be lucky if I could make a makeover scene last 3 pages, that sounds like a slough of a read.
@@cuteeater6983 Yeah, I knew the makeover was coming when her friend offered to fly her to New York on his private jet to meet his mother and choose a dress. I remember thinking, "Okay, how long is this going to take and is there any purpose to it besides wish-fulfillment?" Read the whole thing and there was one moment of the protagonist feeling at home or wishing she had a family because they were being welcoming and she's an orphan, but the rest of it was just "look how fancy their apartment is, oooh limo, wealth, wealth, wealth" and that didn't need to take over for 30 pages. I stopped counting when she arrived at the event and her boyfriend saw her transformation. So mostly it was "yay, I have rich friends now" with a makeover on the jet on the way back, but it was all pointless and dull.
Unless you're Anne Rice, why would you do that? 😭😭
@@Air_Serpent I've tried to read The Vampire Chronicles. I don't think Rice can get away with it either, sorry to say. But you can ignore me, I think I hate more books than Will does in this podcast.
Maybe a weird nitpick here, but if the goal is to evoke Ancient Greece/Rome, why sugarcane instead of wheat? It’s a crop I’d associate more with Asia and/or Caribbean & American South.
Edited to add: I realized there's an even bigger problem with the sugarcane in this scene. You can't swish swish your way through it with a scythe.
That was my first thought.
i bet jenna doesn't know how a sugar cane looks like...
Sugarcane is brutal. Is hardly mindless work. Its hard to cut, sometimes it rips and gets stuck. The canes are heavy and it can get pretty sticky. You then have to tie them together. You are not nitpicking. She should have choose wheat cause she doesn't did a good job explaining sugarcane harvesting.
Yeah, when I was visiting family in guatemala I had fresh sugarcane for the first time and it's literally wood. Soft wood certainly but you need a machete to cut that stuff.
She seems averse to doing any research on the things she's writing about which is a huge pet peeve of mine.
That has been bothering me for years. Also, later they have a family dinner and it's potatoes. I first thought I was irrational for being irritated by this and asked my sister (who is not a history nerd like I am) about it and she actually agreed with me. Potatoes are not a european food, they are from south america and the ancient greeks and romans would have never eaten them. You can't use a culture as an inspiration and then break all the rules. Either you make up something completely new with some vague influences or you stick to the hard rules of the culture that your using.
At 20:00 I’m going to offer an assumption/unwanted opinion. From Tobias thinking about his bad life all the time, it’s clear Jenna has never had to do a soul crushing job that you autopilot on and daydream the hours away.
It was so bizarre that he focused his imaginations outwardly. Heck even at school I daydreamed of faraway stuff out of boredom.
Tobias should've become neurotic and made conspiracy theories if he focuses on making stuff out of nothing😂
Please make more videos re-editing books. Your comments and notations have been helpful as a contrast to my own works.
Exactly! As a writer, I want an editor or critique partner to point out the problems, NOT to suggest how to fix them. That would make the work feel less like my own.
The "Thank God" thing coming up here is funny timing to me, because she had a very recent video where she talked about not info-dumping on the reader. Her specific example what TO do was "just have them say 'Thank Gods' and they'll get that the character is polytheistic" and it made me scream incoherently inside. So I'm not surprised that she did this in her book and thought having a character say "Thank God" was good world-building and sufficient to establish a point to her readers.
How I would have rewritten this:
The sun and the sickle. The young man couldn't help but curse at both forms of torture. The sun burned his skin, heat beating down like lashes from a slavemaster's whip, numbing the taut muscles on his back, melting them into a single painful mass. He glared at the tool in his hand. 'A sickle!' he spat his disgust. The sickle was the worst tool to harvest sugar cane. An axe, he cried for axe, something heavy, something that could chop instead of a mere cutting tool but no, no... those who decided he had to work these fields, a witch called Moresi had given him a sickle! He was an artist and his punishment was to be treated like an unthinking slave. He knew hard labor. He was Hispanic. And he was ruggedly handsome.
:)
😂
Lmao 🤣 🤣 🤣 I spit out my coffee 😂😂😂
*emits obnoxious burst of laughter*
lol
The last few sentences..
As a Jenna Moreci binge watcher (never read her books at all tho), this is pretty informative. I am very anxious with my first / prologue chapter but this breakdown would really help me. *saves video for offline* 👀
I feel mad that the boss guy didn't give Tobias a little extra money and say it was for buying something like a cultural treat related to the festival (eg: easter egg, mulled wine or something) for his mother and sister. Adding context to the festival, the world, the sights smells and flavours and also how Tobias works to feed his family.
Then Tobias could have some internal thoughts about the value of money and how even with the extra, they might not be able to have treats, but has to put on a brave face to his boss. He could have recalled previous festival years as a care-free child enjoying the sights and sounds and add more world building through those memories contrasted to his current situation.
Great video. I love the nit-picking and I'm really glad I've never read this book!
you definitely thought about worldbuilding more than jenna did lol
@@xChikyx I love world building. It's my jam. I suck at everything else!
My personal opinion, and I don't like Jenna as a person (she states her opinions as facts), but the only reason she can make a living as an author is because she has a huge BookTube following. If she didn't have that I don't think people would be fond of her writing.
@@krishnahemminger she's really good at marketing and... that's it
@@xChikyx And jumping onto the current trendy trope!
Jenna has said multiple times that she really hates world-building, which you can really see in her work.
Tobias is an artist, and I really feel like she could’ve used that to really amplify her descriptions. If you want to explain the savior to the audience maybe have Tobias remark on the frescos painted on the buildings that tell her story. Maybe a theater troupe is putting on a play. Maybe he’s imagining how his painting master would’ve had him depict the scene in front of him.
There’s so much you can do and so much you can say with describing setting and culture, even from the foods people are eating. It makes me sad because I think this is a cool concept for a story but none of the actual leg work has been done to make it good lol.
Edit: I literally paused this and typed it all out and then two seconds later Katie mentioned all of this lol. But the point still stands. Tobias should be using his skills and longing to be an artist to describe his world.
The problem with this introduction as a whole is that if you're not going to do research, at least draw from personal experience.
her writing reminds me of my writing but i should also say im sixteen years old so maybe thats not very good on her part
@@StarfishGoneToxic haha thank u 😭
Don't worry fam you're starting early, so you'll have more experience.
Freaking same. Not to the tea BUT I did notice several similarities. Obviously I'm still a novice but this was mortifying 😅
Ps. I wish you luck on your writing journey!
You are so brave for saying that (also keep it up!)
@@billciphergirl6049 everyone starts like this! You're right on track. Zoe Bee has excellent videos on improving prose, if you want a better foundation there.
I'm Greek on my dad’s side and I'm dying about the "everyone would be named Nick" comment because it's true. Nick, Alex, and Diane would be the big 3, with a character named Dimitri who everyone would call James/Jimmy 😂
Don't forget the Christoses!
I'm Greek on my mother's side and I have two uncles named Christos and Dimitrios (who we call Jim/Jimmy/Jimbo). I'm pretty sure my mother's side of the family has all of the stereotypical Greek names or at the very least, a helluva lot of them.
The worst thing in this opening isn't that it's basic. I can handle basic openings just fine. But... We're starting a book and from the very beginning we are met with monotonous labour, echoing sounds, endless rhythm, lulling to sleep, perfectly still air, tedious, mindless work. There is such an abundance of words and phrases that evoke boredom and sleepiness. I get it was the point and sometimes you want or need to describe such moments in fiction. But not at the beginning, girl. The beginning is meant to get me interested, intrigued, or excited, not to put me to sleep. And I don't mean there must be action since page one. No. I love the expository first chapter of LOTR where literally nothing happens, but I am nonetheless interested in this fictional race being described so vividly, with subtle humour. It evokes good feelings in me, like coziness, comfort, amusement, a bit of nostalgia. Here I am greeted with monotony, boredom, tiredness. Come on.
As an author who is constantly looking to improve, this deep dive was very informative. Thank you. I'd love to see you do this with a good book as well as a few bad ones. Its certainly an interesting way to consider writing, the skills of it and the final product.
I wish there was more content like this in general. Line by line going through good books, bad books, fan submission, etc. Only other one I know of is an old series of videos by shadiversity.
Yeah, sadly Shad is a bad writer himself. I love his videos but his book is even worse than this one.
ShaelinWrites has a couple of videos where they do line edits (some on their own writing and some in excerpts submitted by subscribers)!
@@vivs3538 I love Shaelin so much
“First line frenzy” by reeds is SUCH a fun series. A lot of people are turned off by the series bc they’re like iTs jUsT thE fIRst lINe but Rebeccas insight is valuable. She’s so quick!
I also found this livestream developmental edit a while ago: ruclips.net/video/9UDvaNQika4/видео.html
I don't want to be mean to the Jenna Moreci, but one can easily notice that she has not worked s single day of hard physical labour in her life.
EDIT: I didn't know William was going to say the same thing later on, so yay me^^
1:15:30 Wait a minute. So in our non-fantasy world, twins are uncommon but not an anomaly. But here, the author sets up that the main character and his sister being twins is SUCH anomaly that they are FAMOUS in their village apparently on that fact alone. Why?
A book with better world building might go on to explain how twins are perceived in their culture. Maybe it’s not the fact that they were born at the same time but the fact that their parents didn’t immediately kill one or both of them because there’s a superstition. Maybe their father did try to kill one of them and he chose the sister (because patriarchy) but their mother stopped him and ran, so not only do we have more world building but an interesting plot element that explains why dad’s not in the picture and the sister’s disability. Maybe the main character has some sort of survivor’s guilt from his father choosing his sister over him. Maybe this is affects his attitude towards his mother.
Instead, from how this idea is written, it just seems that twins are a medical anomaly. There’s just seems to be no reason for these characters to be twins. If his sister was a year younger, nothing in the story would change. Of course, twins don’t need a reason to exist but this is a story where little details like that are puzzle pieces that eventually connect to form one cohesive picture.
I’m thinking back to “The Poet X” by Elizabeth Acevedo, where her main character is a twin. Even though that book is a contemporary and could probably get away with a more “cuz why not” attitude, Acevedo utilizes the fact that her main character is a twin in order to strengthen the story’s themes. Her twins are written like yin and yang. The main character and others will compare her to her brother, who’s the “perfect child”. And that idea ties itself into the whole purpose of “The Poet X”. Plus it’s something that many readers can relate to, even if they’re not a twin!
I wanted to include this under my first comment because it’s honestly my biggest pet peeve when writers include details that don’t actually matter to the story. It’s so frustrating because I find that the most enjoyable part about reading is seeing how two writers will take the same idea but go in opposite directions. That’s why I love Greek mythology (which could lead to another tangent on how Jenna Morecei does NOTHING with her Greek-inspired setting. Like, I’m only a hobbyist for Greek myths but there are so many missed opportunities in “Savior’s Champion”. I’m not expecting a Madeline Miller level of storytelling but PLEASE GIVE ME SOMETHING JENNA.)
One way the info dumping could be fixed would be by having Tobias walking through the town, he hears the pastor give this long schpeal about the savior blah blah blah. And he just dissmisses it as boring nonsense. Not only do I think this would characterise Tobias better, but it would also give us the lore we need to continute the story.
Oh my go YES! This is what I was looking for as an amature writer! God, I'm so sorry I can't support you on Patreon, but if you ever do more of this type of videos, I will literally cry
Why does this make me want you guys to do this for my book? This was great. Please do more of these as it’s helping me with my own writing?
A little late to the party, but I'm really glad I found this. A writer myself, I'm glad to take in as many viewpoints as I can about advice, editing, publishing, other readers. It's hilarious to me that I've been subbed to Jenna's channel for a couple years now and there are so many dings she complains about in her own work! 🤣
As someone who's finally prepping to write a second draft, this video was incredibly helpful in providing insight on what to work on while editing. I would like to see more of this content!
wait a hot second the original savior had VIOLET eyes?? as in that one tumblr post that went around in like 2013 about “there’s this super obscure genetic mutation that gives you ~purple eyes~ and it’s totally legit”💀💀💀
I can’t believe I only just remembered that- you brought back a core memory for me 😭
Oh my god, she had Alexandria's Genesis.
@@cursedcontent4207 !!! YES that’s the name of it omfg thank you for remembering!!
I've only watched the cold open and once again Katie is my spirit animal.
Will: This is expository and bad info-dumping.
Katie: Why isn't there artwork or children't plays that could be used for this exposition?
Me: Katie, those are my thoughts exactly. *insert applause GIF here*
Edit: Also, I think that it could work if either Tobias or Tobias's former master was commissioned to create some artwork in honor of the Savior's birthday, and the artwork in question was specifically about the origin of the Savior.
(Italics) Swish, swish. (New paragraph) His back flared in pain with each swing of the sickle. Two years in, he still fought to balance the sun's heat with the monotony of his labor. The air offered no breeze. With a harsh breath, he dropped the sickle and pulled the shirt from around his neck. Already soaked, the fabric did little to dry his forehead. He slapped the shirt over his shoulder. (New paragraph/italics) Swish, swish. Sugarcane stalks dropped with each swipe. However tedious or mindless, it was necessary work. He sought details in his labor - the color of each stalk, nicks from his sickle - anything to offset the banality. The setting sun bled orange between the clouds. Though the sky changed color, the heat persisted. How was that fair? (New paragraph) A man approached from the distant sugar mill. Day's end already? He saw the man wave as if in answer. Both relief and dread stirred within him. He could do more work, and under present circumstances he felt he needed to.
Beautiful
You guys should seriously do more videos like this. This is so damn helpful. Truly.
Also, genuine question here, but is the critique about Tobias being too whiny objective or subjective? Because my MC is vastly more whiny than Tobias. (The rest of this is very ramble-y.) I know whiny characters are hard to like, but in my case it's a large part of my MC's character arc. It's more of a fear-based whininess than Tobias's snootiness. Meaning my MC cries actual tears a lot and reacts negatively to things that upset and scare him. Oh, and he's 12, so I know a literal child can get away with this behavior more than a grown adult man (pretty sure the book says at some point that Tobias is 22). Anyways, do you mean whininess is always bad? Or just in the case of Tobias and how Moreci presented his attitude?
I know you're not asking me, but I thought I could give my two cents on this. I've read a few stories with whiny characters and it's usually a huge turnoff. What I've noticed though is that if you can promise your readers that this is going to change, that we're going to see this person grow, then they'll be more willing to keep reading.
Hope that helps :)
Personally I think being whiny is fine, but like any "annoying" trait, it has to be used carefully. Paragraphs upon paragraphs of whining is just heavy-handed and exhausting to read. Even whiny people aren't doing that 24/7; if they are, that's not a very interesting character to read about. And the level of whining people can tolerate-even as a part of a character's arc-is very, very subjective.
I would say a character is like a dish, you need to balance flavor profile or else it’ll be hard to swallow.
If you want a particularly acidic (whiny) character than you’ll need some sweetness/Salt/Spice/Savory aspects as well to balance.
Some readers want to buy a straight up shot of vinegar, but you’ll attract more if you did more with it.
I will also say while kids can be whinny there’s usually a level of naïveté to what they’re complaining about as well as a relatable aspect to it (bitching about school or homework, like damn me too back then). Litera children aren’t the same as characters that are children so at the end of the day there’s no “free pass”. Knowing you’re character flaw is good but you’ll need more.
It really depends on your target audience that you’re wanting to persuade to read this story over any other on that theoretical shelf.
@@JustASunfish I do hope I made it clear enough in the first couple chapters that it's a huge part of his arc.
@@bluebirdeyes I've definitely been tossing in other character traits to counteract the whininess about his fears and anxieties.
Please do this with more books! I love writing analysation. Good book to start on too.
I'd love that as well
I really enjoyed this!
I get so much value out of listening to this kind of 'nuts and bolts' editing work. There is so much benefit to actually see how it works in practice instead of just being told generalities.
Some of the things I already do in my own writing, but others were new to me and great to learn.
I'd imagine that it is a bit of a niche topic. But I would adore to see more in this vein.
Really loving this video! There's something refreshing to see others edit another work and give tangible ways to fix and improve bad prose. I've never read the original (just watched all your vids on the books and that's as much as I care to read, lol), but having a conversation about how to improve is fantastic! I love the back and forth, and discussions of different ways to edit.
Great work!
I think the one thing that gets me with listening to people talk about Moreci's writing (and having *tried* to read her book about writing) is how the book she wrote and what she how she talks about the book she wrote are so wildly different. I used to watch her channel a lot, but all her advice seemed either so generic it was basically useless, or so subjective that it was also basically useless. I feel like she'd do much better as a book-tuber/book reviewer than she does as a writing advice giver. Partly because she doesn't seem to actually apply any of the advice she gives to her own books? She talks a lot about giving characters agency and character arcs and not letting them be static, but then she does exactly that in her own book? make it make sense
47:28 I know this is a fantasy setting based in Greek culture or whatever, but I remember stumbling on a video where it explained why flags don't have purple color in them and it continued that in general purple was used by royalty.
The reason is that purple was very expensive and took a lot of labour to obtain (it came from a specific snail I believe).
Just a fun fact more than criticism.
That "thank god" is like people in space saying "Jesus" when surprised, and those space people had nothing to do with Earth...
I understand you guys not wanting to turn the channel into writing channel, but I would love to see you two the first chapter.
Jenna Moreci has never stepped foot in a sugar cane field and it shows lol wait, how long is that chapter 1?
She obviously hasn't stepped foot in Greece (or did some hours of googling) either cause she depicts the setting inspired by it like a desert with sugarcanes 😂
She wrote a whole chapter of things that could’ve been said in a page. The repetition was unbearable. (Bit of an exaggeration but you get what i mean)
Wow, this was incredibly helpful. I appreciate how you both edited with the picture and context in mind , making sure every description matched it.
I really love your videos, every time I'm editing my work I'm just imagining the three of you discussing it and think - How would Will make fun of me for this?
Thanks for all the good advice!
I REALLY love this type of video. I'm genuinely taking notes, even though I'm nowhere near this kind of editing for my own WIP lol. I'd never heard of "abstract verbs", but it makes a lot of sense and I'll definitely be looking out for them once I am doing this level of editing.
I'd love to see you guys do this with a good book too or with each other's writing, as much as you can learn from doing this with poorly-written books.
This form of criticism is very helpful for me, it would be cool if y’all did more videos like this in the future
25:10 Jenna is also from Florida, so your personal experience is spot on
This video is a interesting look into the editing process. You bring up good point, you bring up nitpicks, Both is important for an author and they can always choose to ignore the advice.
I knew this book was bad, but now that I’ve seen the actual text, looking at it closely… I’ve read Moreci’s first book, Eve The Awakening, when it first came out in 2015 (I believe that’s correct, around that time) and that book I swear was better written then this one. I would really love to see you guys, review or chapter critique, Moreci’s first work because I swear she’s regressed and each new work of hers gets worse. Great video, I learned a lot from this video (great advice to keep in mind as I work on my own fantasy book). Would love to see more of these.
She actually removed Eve so it isn’t for sale anymore, the only way to read it is if you already have a copy or if someone ships a copy to them.
@@Dylan_Devine I had forgotten about that detail…
I haven't read any of her books but maybe Eve was better in the sense of being set in a modern-ish world with fantasy/Sci Fi elements? I watched the Videos from Will, Katie & Maria on the Saviours Series and from what I understood the world building & general purpose of things is something Jenna severely ignored. So Eve was maybe better because she had a modern world with a twist, so the story seemed more grounded?
@@theaargent7056 I have a copy of Eve, and I skimmed the opening paragraphs and there is a big difference. Granted, Eve’s is nothing great, but the big that I got from Champion’s opening is it’s dull, not really atmospheric. And Tobias comes off as, like they said, whiny. In Eve there is atmosphere I feel, a good setting of the scene. Peaceful…and then it goes all to shit because protagonist watches her parents die in a car crash. Again, not good…but Eve didn’t feel it wasn’t trying to hard and it’s not suppose to be super serious. Overall, I personally feel Eve is a better work (guilty pleasure of mine) because it’s less…well, less what the unresolved gang have pointed out here and their reviews.
@@theaargent7056 Jenna revealed that she hates world-building.
The fact that she is still a selling author is a blessing by Yahweh.
This video is so helpful. I have a hard time getting into the editing mindset and now I have some guidelines to follow. :D
It would be interesting to pick your favorite book/a well written book and tell us what they did well, or if there are things you could still improve.
I agree with Will, mindless repetitive work can help to give you time to think and let ideas simmer. I feel like I get some great breaks in story ideas when I'm doing chores like taking copies of files, doing the dishes, etc...
I wish jenna would humble herself sometimes. She gives advice that her books don't always follow
I've said before that with craft it's usually easier to see when something doesn't work than it is to fix it. I'll take another craft (sewing) as an example. Trying on a item of clothing or pattern, at my hobby level, I can see if it doesn't fit. But there are several steps between seeing that and knowing how to fix it. For example understanding that the issue you see in the lower front of your shirt is actually caused by pattern issues on the back side or even shoulder area. And even after you understand that, you will have to know how to fix the pattern so that your sleeves still work with the new back piece.
Experienced seamstress or tailor can do all that easily.
It seems that she can't self critique. Which is odd. Definitely needs to be humbled.
English is not my first language, so correct me if I am wrong, but I think the word echo can be used meaning just the repetition of a sound after the original sound has stopped if used as a verb. No need to be in a cave/cavern or hollow chamber. So technically, it still works in the context used. Although, I agree that the entire paragraph -and book, for that matter- can be edited/written better.
No, it doesn't work. Echoes are a sound you only hear when sounds bounce inside a space. The only time you hear echoes outside is if there's lots of thunder or something echoing through a mountain range or a ravine or something, but out in a field in the open random noises don't echo.
The thing with “oh my god” and Moreci not explaining how the world is monotheistic and the savior is basically a Jesus-type cryptid makes me think she was working on the assumption of monotheism as a cultural norm. Which is bad writing on every level. It’s discriminatory, it’s unimaginative, it fails to convey literally anything about the world. Fantasy is a realm of possibilities and the author should make no assumptions about how the reader is going to interpret it. I’d honestly call this less Greek-inspired and more biblical inspired, because all I can see is that Moreci is writing bible fanfic at this point.
A way would contrast that with the other not evil empire that has othe gods and is very grounded polytheist. Making sure how culty the "saviour" thing really is.
Could be. I doubt that thought is into it. It could add conflict to her role making it way too culty. While ing "normal" with people stillbeing people. I get not what wa thought o, but it can work,i youhave enough contrast to show how culty it is. And makes sense why she is hiding her identity.
And probably add to he themes of figureheads even.
Beside it would make more sense that the saviour might be the godess. or high lady or whatever name she could have. Or at least use godess.
And BAD biblical fan fiction.
And also how it's literally a White Savior. I don't know if she thinks it's because brown people can't sparkle in the sunlight but that was a big ol' yikes right away.
@@ladyofnoxus6733 More like bad Spartacus fanfiction.
@@kiethveseyofficial oof yeah that too
That too.
I always wonder at the writing process whenever I come across books like this, like, did they get anyone to read this before they published? Anyone at all?
I would probably love the LitRPG genre if it wasn't basically this most of the time.
Love this "walk through." There's so much to learn, not just as a writer, but as an editor too.
And yes, I'm totally here for how you'd critique each others' writing!
As someone who watched Jenna when she first started YT, she has a bunch of 'yes men' in her corner apparently. It started fun and strong and very quickly went downhill, objectively. She doesn't take criticism well lol
I think that a character speaking formally would make sense in Tobias' case. Like, if he talked like a hick to other people, but in his head he used big words (not scientific words but just formal ones) when thinking to himself, it would reflect his former rich kid status as he probably would have gotten a better education before becoming a peasant. Unfortunately, that's not what the book does
This was amazing! It's so helpful to see actual editors at work.
I followed Jenna back when she was publishing her first book Eve, and I remember going to the Amazon page for her book and reading the preview (which was around 150 pages), and feeling so disappointed at how bad the writing was. I was more skeptical when this book came out, and finally read it by signing up for audible and choosing it as my free book, hoping she had improved (especially since she has discontinued her first book-I hoped she was improving and had stopped selling her other one because she didn’t feel like it represented her skill). The writing is only marginally better, and I suspect the audiobook narrator did a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of my limited enjoyment of the book. I stopped following her stuff after that
1:10:38 Yes! And it would have shown some banter between him and his mother like having it be playful teasing but in a mean way.
One of my favorite examples of this is in this movie called Gabriel, Gabriel and his mom have a clear relationship within the first time we see them on screen, what made me think of this movie is so Gabriel came home from a mental hospital and was late coming home and so his mom was worried and so when He gets to the house, she’s was worried sick but also so glad that he’s home and when they walk into the house, she has her arms wrapped around his waist and she laughs and makes a comment about how skinny he is and she asks him what he’s been eating and he says “Food” trying to be a smart Alec, later in the scene she is kind of hovering around him and being kind of a overprotective mom by asking him all these questions and he tells her to calm down and that he’s only been home for 5 minutes and she apologizes because he’s upset, he sits at the table and she sits next to him and takes off his beanie and ruffles up his hair and she says that he looks good and he says “5 minutes ago you said I looked Skinny and tired” and she smiles and says “and good, all of the above”. They have such great banter with each other ( I just absolutely love that movie, I highly suggest that people watch it unless your not in a good headspace then maybe don’t because this movie is sad)
But going back to TSC, it would have been great to see the dynamic between Tobias and his Family with like I said funny/mean banter, it also would let us get a glimpse into how his mother and sister are as people, it’s a really big missed opportunity.
05:40 The swish of the sickle
Generic, not evocative
Use specific words
Unrealistic description of harshness of manual work
14:55 With a harsh breath
Description of actions is not important
18:14 Sugarcane stalks plopped
Unrealistic description of thoughts during exhausting work
22:04 A man scuttled
Character sounds whiny
After 310 words, we don't have much information about the story
27:05 The man waved
Confusing, ambiguous sentence
28:14 Dropping his sickle
"Recalled" sounds academic
Common mistake is to use too formal or too informal words
Editors can't help writers fix pervasive writing issues. Writers need to do their own homework and improve their skills.
31:57 The man reached his side
"Coin" is ill defined as type of money
"God" is ill defined in the story
Writer shouldn't blame readers for not noticing details. Details should be clear.
35:10 He cocked his head
Small inconsistencies in descriptions and word choice, destroys how real the world feels
"Apologies" doesn't sound like a word he would use
Use specific, not abstract, words
38:49 Tobias dumped the coin
Say the name of the holiday, not generic "holiday"
In silences, readers get intrigued. Don't explain everything.
42:24 You say that every day
44:46 The town materialized
Use specific descriptions
48:15 The town was only this beautiful
Describe smells
50:45 The history of The Savior
Infodumping. Should not read like a textbook. Filter it through character's POV.
Specificity
Use puppet play, murals, to tell the history
Give cultural, not academic, viewpoint
55:22 And then she was born
59:55 Today was not that Girl's birthday
1:02:30 Yes, today was truly a wondrous holiday
1:05:55 Tobias nodded
No sense of who Tobias is. We don't know his opinions. We don't see him talking to people.
1:07:00 The smell of boiled something
Interaction with mother not convincing
Establish character dynamics, early
1:14:10 Tobias dug the coin purse
Supposedly Greek setting but names are not Greek
1:16:56 He navigated his way
Repeated information
Awkward use of SAT words by characters
1:19:00 Wrap up
Needs faster pace
Make characters more lovable
You make a fine beta reader lol
I have nothing against the use of "echoed in his ears" or that the sun "beat down" (that's a very common expression actually, so I don't see why that's a focus?). I felt more that the use of "continued, remained" are more annoying to use in such close proximity. "The air stood still and the sun beat down over him like fire" I think would work better? removing the "it was" (passive) and the "remained/continued" to be more in the moment/more engaging.
I agree, there’s some things they critiqued that seemed like common colloquialisms. Or when they said some words were formal but it seemed like they were pretty common words to me.
There is one moment in TSS where Leila refers to herself and it is not punctuated. I laughed so hard at how she blasphemed herself while she verbally tore her victim apart
Yikes! This made me realize that my own writing isn't _nearly_ as bad as I think it is! Big confidence boost for me!🤣
I’m glad I crossed this channel in the wake of my botched sci-fi novel launch last week. I don’t have any reviews on my amazon page, but I know that my prose, structure, and dialogue aren’t this bad.
"Some say Her appearance was stunning, that a glimpse would leave people dazed and faint. Some claim Her eyes carried a wisdom, a knowing of Her power before She was old enough to know anything at all. Some say She was made by IKEA and assembled by a teen wolf. Some say when She sleeps, She hangs down by feet like a bat. All we know is, SHE'S CALLED THE STIG!"
This gives cool professor energy lol. I haven’t checked out the rewrite videos until now but I love the format. It’s a good mix of genuinely helpful advice and delicious roasts of garbage. :p
These kinds of videos are so interesting and helpful.
I have next to no experience writing or editing, but I would do the first paragraph like this:
Tobias felt his mind go numb. Wether it was the rythmic sound of the sickle or the repetitive movement of his arms, he couldn't decide. The feeling of the harsh rays of sunlight on his skin was the only thing keeping him sane, for the pain in his arms had been driving him a step closer to insanity with each passing day for the past two years
Why didnt she use the sickle like toshow how muscular he is, like katie said , how his toned body was used to the rhythmic movement of the sickle and yet he knew he would sleep well today in his well deserved rest. He never thought about about how it would be with company, relaxing his arching arms in a warm embrace, h always gave to his family, but what i he would have that, someone that took care of him when his body arched, he needed a rest? Bu hat wasnt his life, sohe could just do his current duty to cut,and cut,and cut, as he knew from practice well enough.
Ok that would be rewriting him , but if thats a romance novel, youcanmake him be grateful or his amily, he loves them, an he has no problm with his current life, but he i romantic, he daydreams, but he i also a hard worker thats just daydreaming of , its supposed to be a romance, company to take him away of the burden, he i fine with,h loves them, he just also i frustrated.
Like making grateful, content, hardworking but rustrated could set up a romance way better, and daydreaming.
And strong, how used he is to physical hard labour.
Also if he woul be surprised, thank you and i wish you a great holiday, as he thought about some nice things he could surprise hi siter with that holiday.
Also they could lead antasy cows parade, like realvillages sometimes still do, the are rituals, hellpeople gooten eating after the church. To talk, gossip. Which people still do.
Also there is beautiul rural artwork. They did and still do decorate. You can have artist sell handmade little wooden statues, horses.
Wait, tell amateur sculpting saviour statues.
Bards, you can have bards tell a tale of one of the saviours. Noway there woulnt at leat one bard try to make a buck.
Or better , he listens to the song telling off the saviours labours, in the church. And maybe bards on the festival tell other,
Cant she do visit a bloody culturally rich village to steal, and maybe dolarn a bit basic farmwork. .
She could also go outof his way, and say nevermind, food is ready soon, i will call, till later. I she wants to avoid that.
This was legit awesome to hear. Fascinating and eye-opening. If you do more of these I will not be mad AT ALL
Love this! This is so helpful for us beginner writers!
New fear unlocked: getting roasted by UTT
A problem with the first paragraph is that it is a very wordy, finicky way of saying something simple: he is bored by his hard labor job.
Yeah one thing I just noticed a lot about Jenna's writing is some very redundant phrases that ultimately become repetitive because 1) they fluff the book up and 2) don't contribute anything because I understood from the context that e.g. he's not into the Savior. Like at the beginning, adding "put off by the greeting" has no purpose.
This is one of things that really bothered me about Savior's Champion upon closer inspection.
Not that you need anymore ideas, but how cool would it be if every Savior had a daughter who became the next Savior, but one of them also had a son? And the son didn't inherent any of his mother's powers, and was forever living in the shadow of his sister's glory like how James was the brother of Jesus. He could be a character in the court playing a role in the mother-gothel-ing that Leila (or Cosima, whoever the Savior was) would have to win over to her side from Brontes.
Late to this, but she also doesn't name her main character until almost the second page. (over 10 paragraphs into the story) We never get a proper name until a side character names him. Why would you not name your character as soon as possible? It creates distance from the thoughts and feelings of the character, which might have contributed to your disconnect of Tobias while you were going through this. It feels like this was supposed to be a cinematic opening, but the issue is that a book is not a film, and vice versa. With a book, you need to ground the reader in the character as soon as possible; a film can afford to be more disconnected from the characters because it has the benefit of a visual component that intrigues us to sit and watch.
This is a personal rule of mine that when I'm writing third person, I name my character as soon as possible. I wonder if this started out as first person, and then the author switched to third because it was easier; it would explain all the pronoun usage instead of a proper name here and there.
Yeah, I’ve gotten a strong feeling from most writers these days that they aren’t really writing books, but screenplays for the movie adaptations that they actually want.
6:40 The swish of the sickle, cutting the cane, echoed in his ears as the searing sun beat down on his back through his sweat soaked shirt. His muscles moaned. His sinews strained. His tendons were tortured. His heart hammered. His breath burned.
Do you get why she chose the word "Echoed" yet?
50:44 the fact that Jenna Moreci actually talked about info dumping in numerous occassions and does it herself is just saddening. The fact that I actually supported her writing advice at one point 😢right now whenever I search up a writing query I kinda just avoid her videos
I don't personally mind all the abstracts that Will complains about? Some of the word choice I think could have been stronger, but some of them I feel have more of a vibe to them while conveying what's happening well enough for me to still visualize it, while the more concrete alternatives feel too stiff or needlessly specific. I would put them down more to taste than talent.
That aside: "In the shortest amount of time, the realm had surpassed its ORIGINAL greatness" is also such an odd line when the book tells you a few paragraphs earlier that the realm was in total disarray and nigh inhospitable leading up to this Girl's birth. It feels like the first and second half of the summary about the savior's origins were written in separate writing sessions, or like lines were added during revision that Moreci liked in isolation without stopping to review and make sure they connected with the scene they were placed in.
I know this is for editing (and it gives amazing advice) but reading the "history textbook" excerpt reminded me of the rewrite videos and makes me think if there was a religious split (which is implied by the skeptics became believers) why not just make it splits between the gods people worship? They pray to who they think is going to save them from the drought/wars/etc etc. until the Savior pops up and turns around Thessen's situation so everyone worships her
Edit: This is also a nitpick but if the Savior's powers are associated with the sun, wouldn't sun-tanned skin be a beauty standard and work that requires you to be in the sun be more respected than other lines of work? It makes sense for "omg your skin is too tanned, stay out of the sun" to be said in the modern world bc our beauty standards are different but not in this one. That could also make Tobias (maybe even a lot of other newer field workers) a bit bitter because they're experiencing the difficulties of hard labor yet no one really wants to hear them complain - considered to be the same as being bitter towards the Savior, who is the reason they even have proper agriculture/crops, which could be a reason he gets a contrarian "ugh screw the Savior" attitude instead of just For Plot Reasons (TM).
It would still be dumb to hate the person literally keeping the kingdom safe but it would make more sense as a way for him to channel some bitterness (especially because he had to abandon what he loved - art - in favor of field work which pays well since it's respected, and he can't complain about being unhappy about that)
(Also missed opportunity on Moreci's part to describe that moment after the temperature cools when it's been hot all day and your clothes basically become a second skin from sweat)
You dont cut sugar cane with a sickle. A sickle is not a scythe, and you use machetes or cane knives to cut cane...you can also use bundles of canes to simulate limbs for test cutting. Several missed opportunities for the gladiator portion of the story. Lack of experience shows again.
Coming back to this after a while and pondering!
-The "Fabric was sopping wet but he mopped his head with it anyway" is quite interesting in that it's telling. It's something that points to the "Jenna hasn't done any hard labor ever." Since there's no indication that he's going to regularly dunk his shirt in a well of water to cool off, you'd have to assume that it's wet with his sweat, right? And like you said, the coolness of it would probably feel good, but the "anyway" implies that it's bad in some way. The conclusion that I draw from this reads as "The fabric was stinky and sweaty and gross, but Tobias was so worn out that he still wiped it on his forehead." It makes me want to go back to the Savior's Series (god help me) just to see what else is like this.
-I can see "Was it the end of the day already" working in the sole context of being focused at staring at the sugar cane, no thoughts head empty, swish swish etc, oopsie doodles the sun's gone. The phrase does have a bit more serenity to it though, opposed to a "Thank fuck, the day's over."
-"It was there and you just didn't pick up on it" infuriates me because just becomes a handwave when someone finds a plot hole, because it can just trick readers into fnafing story into a book that doesn't have it. I do think it's an acceptable response for things like "Wait, I didn't know that all the men were circumcised!" since that's not tangential to the main story. Or for things that are just blatant like "Wait, I didn't know Kaleo was supposed to be a villain all this time!"
i had another thought about the first point you brought up, although for me it felt like a characterisation moment?; tobias is shown to maybe not be the type of person to care about the grosser things out there, since he was willing to mop his head with a dirty, sweaty shirt. it was emphasised in such a way (“…with it anyway”) that made me think it was a personality trait, although it doesn’t seem to come up in the book ever again so ig that’s just a thoughtless bit of information. maybe this comment is totally wrong since i’ve never done hard labor like the one described lol, but i thought it was interesting to share the kind of perspective/reading another person would get if they were unfamiliar with tobias’ situation.
The detail you go into on the first paragraph would be horribly inappropriate. An editor is not a ghost writer, and your focus on the line overlooks the issue of the generic opens. It becomes a re-worded generic opening.
I love the dynamic of you guys together. I am officially afraid of writing now tho 😆 but this is helpful and entertaining ❤️
I liked Eragon. Eldest was good for the first read, but I found myself skipping entire chapters on rereads. Brisignr had the same problem. The final book, I just couldn't get into it.
Some of these (as a reader) I actually disagree with. Haven't read the book myself, and I'm not trying to say there aren't issues. But I'd rather have the sun bleed through the clouds. If I want to see a photograph, I look at a photograph. I don't take a book for that. Figurative or even occasionally absurd use of words is stuff that writing can do well unlike most other media. And at least for me, often the "non photographic" word choices create more vivid images in my head. It's pity if they get all edited out for banal accuracy
Yeaaah and if they're trying to advertise their editing services with this...I pity whoever takes them up on it
How much do I gotta up my Patreon for you guys to do more of these? 😂 It's like a class and I ate this up, especially with your flavors of sass.
I'd love to see you breaking down a really effective first chapter to say why it works
If you want another terrible book, The Emperor's Blades (after the prologue) starts about 40 chapters before it should
The chapter is pretty bad but I think you guys went a bit overboard on the nitpicky side of things to be honest. The time you spent on the “nice to see you too” was completely unnecessary for example. I get that the writing is bad but the nitpicking on completely passable things made it seem way worse than it actually is.
I love this! You guys should do more of this line-by-line review.
Also, I get the idea that Jenna likes to paint with words, but not necessarily write a good story.
I find these editing and critiquing sessions very informative. Thank you
You need a machete, not a sickle. Sugar cane is hard. You can’t swish through a cane field. I'm from Costa Rica. We have sugar cane in the backyard. You have to hold it with one hand and strike with the machete many times. The blade may get stuck. You wrestle the cane, you hack it, it’s tough work. Also, the cane is heavy. I mean, you don't throw a bunch of cane stalks at someone. You could hurt them. Seriously
Exactly. Even bamboo shoots, which are much softer and thinner than hardwood trees, require some hacking some chop through, and sugar cane is a lot harder than bamboo.
this was amazing ! I would love to see more editing content from you guys!!
more of these please!!!
I feel like a lot of her answers is along the vein of “A Wizard did it!” (But like, magic/ savior) for getting out of answering the actual world building question.
Like someone criticized that the savior could only have daughters, saying it wasn’t realistic and she’s like “Magic! Duh.” Forget what she said exactly but it was like, “you’re not questioning *X magical system,* but not a magical uterus?”
Oh we’re going deep. We’re going full on ass whooping mode today, aren’t we?
51:00 - 51:22 BRO KATY IS DYING AND I JUST CAN'T 💀dw I ripped my ears off just reading that
yes! as a huge fan of julian greystoke, this is what i live for
this channel helps me become a better writer in so many ways
Tobias hacked at the sugar cane all day in the blistering heat, until he'd gathered his last stack. Mr Van Overseer strolled over, pinching his moustache thoughtfully before throwing Tobias a coin purse, nodding at the cane. "i'll take it"
Tobias grinned, pulling a face muscle doing so, but managed a "Thank you Sir" before strolling wearily down the hill to the festivities in the village. The Apple festival was in full swing, the heady perfume of wildflower wreaths that decorated the shopfronts drifting in the cooling air.
There he got a juicy candied apple and cheered the hell up.
Instant thumbs up for the My Big Fat Greek Wedding reference 🤣👏🏽
When the book said Tobias was using a sickle, I thought he was harvesting grain or something, but then, it was revealed it was sugar cane, and my Reunionese heart bled a little.
Where I live, sugar cane is a big part of the economy, and people are harvesting it using a cane saber, not only because the stalks are thick and kinda sturdy, but also you have to remove the leaves, and using a sickle for that would be stupid...
wait what if Jenna did have an editor... and it was Meg LaTorre! (I think she used to work in editing?)
Wow, guys. There I was assuming her writing would be tight and the story gripping and I was feeling kind of inferior because Jenna works so hard teaching how to write books ( and is funny and entertaining and educational) but if the rest of the book is like the first page I think it's a shame she's not spending time getting more feedback or reading critically ....I think she needs a nice Critique Partner ....her writing reminds me of my earlier drafts.