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Roasting THE SAVIOR'S CHAMPION for an hour straight (Book Review | Jenna Moreci)
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- Опубликовано: 13 авг 2024
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While a darling of the booktube community, Jenna Moreci's book The Savior's Champion is... bad. Very bad. Watch us suffer through it in our review.
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0:00 - Intro
3:12 - The Premise
13:21 - Tobias Enters the Tournament
22:50 - Leila is Totally Not the Savior, Guys
33:36 - Tobias’ Gladiator Fight
47:25 - Tobias Fails at Poetry
57:20 - Surprise Leila is the Savior
1:08:11 - Will Maria Survive the Sequel?
So I was a beta reader for this book. I tried my hardest to provide honest criticism, which was largely negative and discussed a lot of the same points that you guys do here. Moreci ghosted me 3 chapters in. Didn’t tell me why she didn’t want me anymore, just dropped me and that was that. I sometimes wonder if she just drops her negative beta readers, perhaps thinking they aren’t the target audience or something?
That's fascinating. Jena seems to have a complete inability to deal with criticism of her work; it's telling that it started at even the beta level.
--Will
oh, you mean doing the exact thing sheade a vid saying not to? im not surprised...
Krispy, do you still do Beta reading? I prefer hard criticism on my own work.
I have a question, how do I find beta readers like you? I am working on a book and ACTUALLY WANT criticism and honest feedback. I am still in early stage but I am a new writer so I want criticism early on.
Though it may hurt, any type of criticism harsh or not is good. (honest of course) it really helps someone edit their work.
I find it strange that she'd drop you after only three chapters when you didn't do anything wrong.
As a greek guy the idea of a greek inspired world excited me. Then i remembered no one actually cares about 4000 years of history and culture it's all about the Spartan warriors and toga orgies .
This is so hilariously accurate.
--Will
I am Greek too and the fact that Moreci probably thinks Greece is a "desert with some flora, where it doesn't rain or snow" kills me.. She maybe heard that Greece can get hot (we are the 60th coldest country on the planet but ok) and she imagined a desert?? Maybe it's more nuanced than that in her head but her "Greek world" being in a desert doesn't make any sense! We should have seen more North Africa / Arab / Middle Eastern vibes, with clothes and buildings more suitable for the area.
I'd be very curious to read a real Greek inspired fantasy. Do you know any you can recommend?
@@leigh-anjohnson Since I got notified for this question mind me if I answer too, as a Greek? 😂 The answer is basically thet I haven't found anything good, written in English at least. The "adaptations" of all types just tend to actually be "Americanizations" with no concern for Greek or Greek American culture. And I've been looking for ages. (But, if any Greek has a different experience I'd be happy to take recommendations)
@Persephone Diggen Rick Riordan?? Seriously?? The man who wrote zero Greek cultural representation except ancient god names, wrote our ancient gods to be stereotypical assholes, and wrote that the gods moved to the US because it was "the center of western civilization"? Ew... It was so negative that he has spoken about his mistakes on the Percy Jackson books and apologized. Edit: I've read the whole Percy Jackson series, since we are talking about Greek mythology
"I'm glad she wrote this book to show us how to not write a book" has to be the best roast I've heard all year
Bad examples can be good teaching tools
I really hated where Leila existed in a world where she is the only possible match for Tobias because all other prominent female characters are either gay, evil, delayed or related to Tobias lol
It's been a few years since I read this book and I barely even remembered that Delphi was written as ambiguously developmentally delayed. But I have a developmental disability myself, and lots of non-disabled people think that those of us in the neurodiverse community can't have sex/can't date/can't fall in love/etc. Jenna was inadvertently contributing to the ableist infantilization of disabled people by being like "Tobias can't be with Delphi BECAUSE she is delayed." Honestly, love triangles piss me off, but in this case, it might have been less harmful if there'd actually been a Tobias/Delphi/Leila love triangle and there were other reasons besides "she's sexy and not delayed" for Tobias to be in love with Leila and more reasons other than "She's delayed" for Tobias to not be in love with Delphi. I'm rather tempted to reread this, specifically looking at the ableist implications of Delphi's character (and also the queercoding of Kaleo, the main villain guy; as a queer woman who didn't figure out her queer identity until many months after reading this book and forgetting about it completely, that now pisses me off even more). Also I'm not able to remember what video Jenna mentioned it (I've combed through a bunch of her older videos but can't find where she talks about it) but I remember she said in one of her videos once that she's demisexual, so a queer woman making an evil queercoded villain with no other personality traits other than "He's evil and also has sexual attraction to men!" just gives me ick vibes all over.
@@cmauthor I believe it was Pippa that was developmentally delayed. And I agree, Jenna repeatedly said that she wouldn't write Pippa with a love interest because of her disability, and its one of Jenna more egregious sins with the book. I don't know if Jenna ever specified whether it was autism or something else but Pippa is written no differently than she would write a five year old child. Not to mention in the sequel, Leila treats her like a little puppy and uses her as a hostage. The second book is much more offensive when it comes to Pippa's character. Delphi is a whole other mess of weird implications though. A black lesbian woman who pretty much lives to prioritize Leila. Like that's how she is written. She has casual sex and plots for Leila, takes care of Leila, never disagrees with Leila, and has no wishes or agency of her own.
@@WrathOfLiz Thank you for the clarification! Just goes to show that since I couldn't remember which character was which that Jenna didn't do a good job making them distinct people lol. I actually glossed over the bits in TSC where people discussed Pippa's "delay" because I think that occurred in chapter 7 and I was pretty much already bored AF by then of reading it so I was just skimming at that point. xD And I wanted to go into TSC without knowing anything about the characters or world or anything, so I never bothered to watch Jenna's videos about TSC, like her "meet the characters" or "TSC Q&A." But I just did go and watch it and afterwards was just like "THOSE WERE SENTENCES THAT ACTUALLY CAME OUT OF JENNA'S MOUTH THAT SHE MUST HAVE HAD TO LISTEN TO HERSELF SAY AT LEAST TWO OR THREE TIMES WHILE EDITING THIS VIDEO AND SHE STILL DIDN'T THINK ANYTHING OF IT." Now, going back and looking at the Pippa passages in TSC, it is most definitely written as inspiration porn, where the mentally disabled character is "so pure" and "the other characters just want to protect her from all the bad in the world" and "she's just so childlike and doesn't know about bad stuff." I immediately sat down and pounded out an outline for a RUclips video where I go in detail over aspects of Pippa's character and talk about how problematic it is. I've looked at reviews and stuff and there's not much from disabled/ND perspectives on why precisely Pippa is a bad character. Of course, that doesn't make Delphi not bad, as well, but while I am queer, I'm also white, so I don't feel as comfy talking about the racial issues with her, and I'd probably focus solely on Pippa and other characters' interactions with her, since that's kind of where my main expertise lies. :)
(got on the pc with keyboard to fix) aye. gotta have two princes if not a triangle usually. in this. layla want never to need any of them . so least worst option for her is the one with most dawg like loyal puppy love? but uh serious all guys i know would still want the red headed savior even if they knew layla was the real savior. Crazy with magic? Nah. Team Brontes! anyway. i've survived testicular cancer so i need to engineer a Tournament of my own to get what I want. HA!
@@cmauthor I do agree with this, the one that was delayed was Pippa. Delphi is the one who was a lesbian.
“…If I can’t remember it, as an adult, then the author didn’t do a good job in explaining it.”
Hard burn, but truth. And certainly a truth I’ve had to learn the hard way.
To me it was so obvious that Leila was the Savior that I started second guessing myself, because I knew there was supposed to be a twist and Leila was too obvious.
Same! I was like... okay so what's the twist now that we know this? Oh... it's the thing I've known since chapter 2. Neat.
I have never read the book, but Leila being the savior was obvious to me from just watching Jennas videos. I didnt even know it was supposed to be a twist
Was that really supposed to be a surprise to the audience? 😕
@@breezy3392 I think so.
I have to wonder, did no beta readers say "I saw that coming"
No amount of But Jenna's will save this book
Why isn't this pinned?
Underrated comment
We have a winner.
Lol
Usually her “but Jenna”’s counterarguments make sense, but yeah, she needs to hone her craft more instead of spending her time deflecting criticism and giving people writing advice.
You have a point that a good critic isn't necessarily a good writer. There's an old saying in boxing the best managers are ones that can't fight.
It's a lot easier to be objective about other people's work than it is to be so about your own work. That's why betas, proofreaders, and editors are arguably just as important as the actual author.
RIGHT?? I loved that they said this in this video. Because we see people of the general public all the time telling "haters" something along the lines of "Well if you know so much about this why don't you get up there and do it?" Like, they're trying to prove some point, but ultimately they're just showing how ignorant they are. You don't have to be an architect to know when a building is ugly or gonna fall. You don't have to be a makeup artist to know that you don't need tape to make crisp lines with eyeliner. You don't have to be a chef to know the spices are off. It's just such a goddamn dipshit argument, so I'm glad they briefly addressed it in this video.
on the other hand, those managers do not let people pay to watch theselfs fight!
A few notes for all those looking to self publish:
1.) No matter what, do NOT make your book +600 pages. Either divide it into multiple books or trim it down to less than 300, especially it's your debut novel.
2.) Invest in beta readers and editors. They WILL tear your novel apart and it's gonna hurt at first, but it's needed for you to grow as an author.
3.) Just try to avoid pulling an r/menwritingwomen or r/womenwritingmen
im a masochist, im used to paying people to hurt me
I agree with all of that except the 600+ page part. It doesn't entirely matter how long the book is if you tell a great story and its not inflated. If all 600+ pages are worth reading and you have a LOT to tell in your story, I would expect a lot of pages. In fact, 400-500+ pages is the norm when it comes to stories with heavy emphasis on worldbuilding, and Dune is an example of that.
Jenna, on the other hand, clearly doesn't have a well-thought out world to tell apart from very surface-level info involved with JUST the story, and everything else is left out, so she shouldn't have been using any more than 300 pages based on how little worldbuilding she used.
The length of your novel has nothing to do with it. What is important is that your book has a captivating plot that's engaging, immersive and non- repetitive. Sometimes cutting your book in half completely ruins the premise. But everything else you said is on point.
@@LethalByChoice My bad. Meant to say "first book". Yes, you can publish books over 600 pages, but when it comes to your first book, you generally want to keep it to a more digestible length. I guess I'm speaking more from a "tritonal publishing" stand point because that's what I've been invested in. Generally, the rule of thumb is that you make your first novel a around 200-450 pages. 1.) Because it costs less to print, and 2.) readers will take more of a chance on a standard length novel as opposed to a longer one if the they are unfamiliar with the author's work. But what Kris L said is also a good point; "Wat's important is that your book is captivating, engaging, and immersive". But sometimes that means cutting down on the excess narrative or making the book a duelology to keep your reader engaged. I guess what I'm trying to say is "tell your story, but keep the writing tight enough to read".
@@LethalByChoice Unpopular opinion but I am going to say that MOST books don't need to be 600+ pages and honestly the length of the book can impact its overall quality. There are lots of great writers with great writers and I guarantee if they decided to add another 200 pages to the book it wouldn't be the same. Of course there are exceptions. I have beta read and edited loads of manuscripts and often times when the writers tell me they believe everything is necessary and can't cut anything I can instantly find ways to shave off at LEAST 20k words to make the story tighter and more coherent.
I know I'm not the only one to say this, but as an artist, the whole "accidentally" drawing Leila bit infuriated me! You don't just go into a trance where you don't know what you're drawing until ta-da! While you do get inspired, there is still deliberation.
😂
yup... having skill as an artist is all about learning to put on paper what you picture in your head - you can kind of fail at doing what you want by falling into a given trope or character type, but it's not a trance.
Now that kind of thing can sometimes work. Shallan in stormlight archive has moments where things pop up in her drawings but for one thing, it's pretty clear her ability to memorize images and draw is partially magical, and most relevant, she has full on dissociative identity disorder: it makes sense for her to do things while she dissociates.
I do a lot of gesture drawing and I actually don’t know what I’m drawing sometimes until I hit a nice series of gestures in a flow state. Sometimes I can be like “oh this kinda looks like president Obama!” Then I’ll lean into it and see if I can draw him. But I do have enough hours of drawing figures that I have it down to a muscle memory thing. I don’t think she was doing that but if I want to be real charitable 🤷♂️. I also won a drawing contest in high school against a superior artist because they blindfolded us last minute without telling us 😁 so my weakness of drawing the same stuff constantly paid off and I could draw the leprechaun almost just as well without looking at the page.
I remember years ago I asked Jenna a question during a live video and she had an attitude. She was rude and I felt embarrassed. I don’t remember my writing question but still to this day I remember how she made me feel.
I don’t think of her as a nice person. She seems fake. Or maybe she was having a bad day? In any case she needs to learn that she shouldn’t have an ego.
Sorry Jenna was mean to you just for asking a question. Even in her "How to" videos she seems very abrasive and mean. She was a stock broker and financial analyst before deciding to be a self-published author, so she approaches it all as a business, and seems to have disregard for artists or writers who craft their work AS art.
@@emmagrove6491. She was apparently a model too. This may be completely wrong (and may well say more about me than it does about her) but she strikes me as one of those conventionally very attractive people who has generally had the world kiss her ass because she is as attractive as she is. Such people find it easy to automatically dismiss criticism because they have no shortage of cronies telling then that everything they do is pure wonderfulness.
@@philin2876 I think you're right. Attractive people ARE used to everything just going their way because of their looks, and get angry when people aren't automatically seduced by them. She was, according to her, also a stock broker, so she approaches the entire book industry solely from a business perspective. I've met people like that, who look at a creative industry ONLY as a means to make money. Writing or creating art purely as an artistic expression or to push the art form in a new direction or simply for the joy of creating are concepts they would laugh at.
@@emmagrove6491 Holy crap does that make sense! Her stuff is so hackneyed and uncreative that it reeks of a stale imagination.
You should see how crazy her Discord was years ago.
As an actual artist, I can't fucking imagine how dumb you would have to be to not notice WHO you are drawing. Like, how?! You draw with your eyes closed?! And then, there is really someone who can draw a portrait mindlessly? If so, I wanna shake their hands, because the only things I can draw without paying attention to are lines and circles...
That was my thought! I'm not a visual artist so I don't have that experience but from what my visual artist friends have told me, that isn't how it works for them either! Which isn't to say it NEVER happens like that but it just seemed kinda silly. Especially like... 3 times in a row. Thanks for the comment! - Maria
Yep, I won't pretend to be an "artist" but I've dabbled a bit in trying to learn more about 2D illustration and 3D modeling, and everything is very, extremely intentional. It's agonizingly complicated, in fact. It's like a science. When I was trying to learn more about illustration, one thing I learned very quickly was that things like anatomy, textures, lighting, and a million other factors all have to be accounted for, and nothing just "happens."
@@unresolvedtextualtension what can happen is that through shorthands, the characters you draw gravitate towards a certain type of what you think a generic good looking person looks like.
But even if it were that say art he’d subconsciouly painted a portait of maya prior to meeting her , it probably wouldn’t be much of a compliment because it might be the sign of a beauty without much character.
Tobias really just pressed the "make painting" button.
all my digital artist rAGE
Omg, that happened in the book? (Haven't finished the vid yet) wtf? How does he not notice?
I have a question about Tobias' motivation: why wasn't his motivation to marry the Savior specifically to gain favor with her, for her to heal his sister? Yes, there is the questionable trope of 'healing a disabled character's disability', but given that Tobias' sister's disability causes her physical pain and the family major distress about his treatments, I think that it would be forgivable. Also, it would help make Tobias less of a plot robot.
As a visual artist: I literally don’t know how someone could just not notice what they’re drawing?? And could repeatedly draw the same things over and over again without meaning too?? Like that’s now how art works
This was basically the “not like other girls” trope but with a guy😂
A 'not all men' guy?
It sounds cliché, but kind of new. I've never heard the "I'm not like the other boys."
@@vikaziza1506 Same. And I can see Jenna really did try to be different here to shake things up but the same trope happened except with a guy😅
@@vikaziza1506 In reality, it's just a dude sort of written as a woman by a woman, which is why the main character feels like the male version of "I'm not like other girls". In the real world, the equivalent would be "not all men", but the story doesn't really sound like it - sounds more like "I'm not like other girls".
@@katelynharrison3779 She clearly did, but that doesn’t make it any less sexist. Just because it was written by a woman about a man, that doesn’t make it right.
If someone put generalized gender stereotypes in their book and made 99% of their women that way, and the male author defended himself by saying “well, have you MET women?”, then people would be pissed and calling him out as sexist. And rightfully so.
But it’s somehow okay when a woman does it? About a man? I don’t think so. I think some ladies need to realize that if we want fair treatment, we need to give it to men too.
WAIT HOLD UP!!!! So Jenna Moreci was preaching about how having a disabled character healed by magic is cheap and offensive in one of her videos (I think about problematic or toxic tropes) but she did the exact same thing at the end of her book???
to be fair, she doesn't get healed. some of her pain is relieved
Why would healing a disabled person be toxic? I mean, nobody wants to be disabled
@@marcelolage1395 Im assuming she meant disabilities like downsyndrome or autism that would seem offensive to "heal"
@@marcelolage1395many members of the disabled community find the trope offensive because it implies they don’t live full and worthwhile lives the way they are as disabled folks.
@@ofthewilderwoods That is bullshit. I have an overactive bladder and it has ruined my life so if someone could magically heal me I would be so grateful.
I'm a self-published author as well. I watched Jenna's videos for some time, simply because she has a very bubbly personality and is easy to watch. However, I can confirm that her advice isn't the greatest. The problem is that she takes advice and cuts out all the meat of it to simplify it, so it feels like one of those "five minute craft" videos. In other words, the solutions she presents aren't necessarily solutions at all. They're just concepts. And to me, that's a major red flag for taking advice. A good author/writing teacher should be able to get nitty and gritty with things. They should be able to break things down to a level that not only a beginner can learn from but an advanced writer can as well. And Jenna...? Jenna doesn't really have that. Her videos revolve around click-bait and surface level inspiration. As such, I stopped watching her videos a while ago and haven't read any of her books.
I mean, I wish her the best and hope that she continues to find joy in being an author. But really...? It's not that great. I'm just not impressed with the work that she has done.
Edit: I have finished watching the video and now I'm just... I don't even know if there is a word for what I'm feeling. Grateful, for one, for not having wasted money on this book. Just... 700 pages...? For... THAT?! Oh, honey, no... There are so many things that I would tell any beginning writer to scratch from their manuscript... It sounds like half the challenges could go, along with Milo and many of the other contenders. Plus the "pillowy lips" description makes me want to vomit. Hard no. Oh, and the family could be trashed as well. Might as well just make Tobias an orphan with orphan friends.
But... yeah. Wow. Ouch. Your description and just walking through the plot makes me want to set the book on fire. But on the other side of this, as an author, now I kind of want you guys to review my book. You seem to work so thoroughly to review, so I'd be super curious what you'd have to say. Good job. Thank you for sharing this review.
That's the problem with getting into the nitty gritty: it's not RUclips friendly. Those videos are 30-60 mins at least, but she needs 10-15 min videos to please the algorithm. But I think you're right in that she ultimately can't handle teaching the more advanced material.
@@whosaidthat84 You're definitely right. The algorithm is a problem and tends to favor surface-level advice over actual education. Which is strange, when you think about it. I mean, how many channels out there do very well for offering step-by-step explanations to fix something or bake or whatnot? Same concept, different standards, I suppose. And yeah, I don't think she could handle it. Who knows though. Maybe she'll change her platform one day and aim to go deeper. Unlikely, but possible.
@@everestm.radley5669 well something like baking or fixing an engine requires specific steps. It's more or a less a non-debateable science. Writing is an art and doesn't have a "be all, end all" guide.
I agree that there's little doubt she changes her format. Although I've noticed her subscriber count has been at around 250k-270k for quite some time. It may have peaked out. So this might be prompt a big change.
@@whosaidthat84 she just says, and doesn't explain how or give examples or even suggestions of works to read that would highlight the concepts.
@@thelastnic you're right. In one video she tried to explain plot armor but completely didn't understand what it was. It was kind of embarrassing.
"A cart accident" sounds like something out of a Monty Python sketch... and I don't think this book deserved such a good joke!
I died when they said that above, and yet again reading this comment.
Wouldn’t Tobias’s story have been much better if he stays in the competition specifically to avenge the death of Milo, and he’s tormented with grief because his close friend, basically his brother, is now dead. Because his friend died, he wants to destroy them all. That’s better motivation for the character.
You just wrote a much better plot than Moreci could’ve ever done.
Completely. I read this book close to 2 years ago and the speed in which Tobias forgets about Milo is still prevalent in my mind
Jenna has complained about writers adding ONE CHAPTER from the villains perspective.. and she recreated an entire book from the other main characters perspective??
Uh I just watched that video and that wasn't what she was complaining for...
her writing might be trash, but that's not the same thing as separate books of the same story having different perspectives, and one chapter in one book be of a different perspective than the rest of the book.
Not the best reason to diss this book, the people who made the video seemed to have some solid critiques of the book, though.
The Savior's Champion walked so that Squid Game could run
This is maybe my favorite comment on anything ever.
--Will
@@unresolvedtextualtension Woah, thank you man
imagine learning you actually had the concept that could take the world by storm but not the skill to do it. (Just for clarification, im not bashing or saying i could do better, just that I imagine it'd sting being so close but too far)
@@PokeMultiverse
I think the first comment is being sarcastic. Battle royale is a well established type of fiction
@@morbidsearch Also Kaiji, liar game and so on
If Jenna wanted to do both of their POVs, she should have just put them in the one book. Making a sequel that is literally the same thing from a different perspective is so amateur.... I don't mind her YT videos, but I also don't love them. She's too opinionated in her "advice." I mean, it is literally just her personal preference half the time in videos that should not be about her personal preferences. We don't care if you are sick of dragons or whatever, we are here to find out which tropes to avoid for real reasons, you know? I am glad I haven't wasted my time to read her books. I just never got the vibes from her or her blurb (or cover) that made me want to read it.
I thought the same thing when they brought up that point. It’s a really big gamble to assume your readers will pick up the sequel just to make sense out of the first book lol.
@@neonpiranha3664 Not defending her or anything, but she has said that her advice doesn’t matter before.
Just curious, what are real reasons?
I never really learned anything from her tbh. I thought to watch her because she an award winning author and she had do something to earn that.
@@SuperHez I'm late, sorry, but here are some examples:
- it's so dumb that the audience doesn't get immersed in the story anymore
- it breaks the trust that writer and reader had before (for example, the writer implies inside the book that there will be no significant amount of romance, and the second half of the book is all about romance, thus breaking the trust between writer and reader)
- it adds no real substance to the story (resurrections with no consequences, deaths inside dreams (with no consequences))
- it doesn't make a whole lot of sense all around (most villain monologues)
I'm only a short way in, but ... matriarchs in a Greek-inspired setting? That was one of the most sexist times to be alive. "Harem pants"? Where are the chitons? Also, desert instead of oceans and ships? No wars?
I'm nitpicking here, you can definitely take the aesthetic of Greece and put your own stuff on top, place those lovely columns and temples in a desert if you wish, but it certainly doesn't sound very inspired by ancient Greek social culture or history.
When you mentioned the cart accident I thought "the brother should've died from a discus accident". There are so many discus-head injuries killing people in ancient Greece to the point where Apollon's lover dies from it in one myth.
Actually greek style buildings exist every were in middle eastern deserts due to the hellenistic period
That's exactly what she did though
Minor point, but Milo is absolutely a valid Greek name. The most famous Greek wrestler was Milo of Croton, thought to have been the strongest man to live since Heracles. He was also (supposedly) a follower of Pythagoras.
Edit: Also, cart accidents were 100% a thing. Beasts of burden could lose control of their momentum for any number of reasons, and the results were horrific.
This is rather sad. I love watching Jenna's trope videos because she's funny and I agree with some of her advice, but I've never read any of her books. Hearing this, I probably won't. Also....one of my personal pet peeves *as* a writer and a reader is to have an author write a separate book just to re-tell the same story, but from a different character's perspective...it's literally 'how to milk more money from your readers without going to the effort of actually writing a new story".
I've never read The Savior's Champion , I knew it wouldn't be for me just by the genre, but I watch a lot of Moreci's content. And I distinctly remember in one of her videos she talks about women fetishizing gay men in fiction. That in the context of that one villain in this book whose name I can't remember is like. Take your own advice? I love queer villains and all but jeez
As an artist myself, the way Tobias' "creative process" is treated made me incredibly angry. It's plain ignorant and essentially disrespectful to the profession. There were so many things that could've been turned into themes and sources of character arcs, but _everything_ in this book is just a shallow prop for the romance, including the main characters.
I also admire your stamina for reading this whole thing twice, I had to _force_ myself to keep reading the second half, to a degree that it felt exhausting and I was glad when it was finally over and haven't been able to bring myself to read anything else for the past few days.
I agree as an artist, and the whole "spacing out and accidentally drawing your love interest" thing is cliche and unrealistic... I'm a spacey person who fantasizes about random things a LOT, and even I can't draw even a single image I didn't intend on drawing, let alone doing that three more damn times. She clearly didn't quite understand how people draw. You can't space out when you draw unless you're doodling random lines; to make a GOOD drawing, you are going to know what you're drawing.
I think she should've interviewed artists on their processes or better yet, picked up a pencil and made some things herself because she'd soon realize that drawing a person 'by accident' even once was completely unrealistic, let alone three more times...
@@iferawhite7661 Yes, thank you! Exactly why it made me angry, it feels disrespectful to the effort that goes into learning and creating art to have it trivialised like that. Pretty sure she doesn’t write like that, although it would explain a lot 😅
ikr? like it was all "oh he's gonna draw" and i was thinking "great draw a flower or like something naturey or architectural" cus that's like nice but vague enough and four times?? he draws?? the same girl?? after years of not drawing??? what the actual hell
@@jane_wants_to_feel I’m glad I’m not the only one who had a problem with this!! Like oh he draws perfect portraits after years of not drawing? And he doesn’t know he’s doing them? Also that fact he did this over a girl who he knew for like a couple days who was BLATANTLY RUDE TO HIM. Like wtf?
@@banettenighmare8645 right! it's rlly hard to draw someone well even with years of drawing bc your art style might not be the most realistic, but even giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he has a hyper realistic art style, there's no way he could have made a perfect portrait of her four times even if he *was* trying
I watched Jena Moreci's writing advice videos. There were pros and cons.
Pros:
She's good at getting you to realize that you need to handle your ego and emotions when you write.
Her perspective as an indie publisher helps you know the nuts and bolts.
Her perspective on tropes is deeply personal, but interesting.
Cons:
Jena gives writing advice based on her unique style as if it is universally applicable. She derides gardners/pantsers as lacking organization and discipline. For me, as a new writer still in the process of embracing my middle-of-the-road writing style, this was toxic. I felt ashamed of using the strategies that were actually working for me.
Jena also made a video on how to write series after having published two companion novels, which I felt was giving advice beyond her experience.
In her book, she wrote situations for her male lead, Tobias, to be funny that would have been darkly brutal if she had written them to happen to her female lead, Leila. Tobias was: stripped nude and objectified; he was brutally injured again and again, tortured; and threatened with rape. These situations are played as awkwardly funny, brushed off, or made to feel not as serious as what happens to Leila. When he is nearly drowned and eaten alive, the focus on the reaction scene is how she was treated rudely. In essence, the male lead is treated more like a favored toy while the female lead is treated much more seriously. I don't like the term "simp", but this is one of the only times it's justified.
So yeah.
I hope that she runs her future work through beta readers who will give her more constructive advice.
I hope she learns to consider how her writing reflects her own biases.
And I hope that she gains more respect for writing styles that differ from her own.
Yeah I went through a long period of thinking I was just...not good at writing anymore because whenever I tried her writing style, something she acts is the only way to to it, I kept failing.
@@BabyCatBanana How have you been since? Do you feel like you've gotten your grove back?
@@AnonymousOnimous yeah I got a boyfriend that is a pretty brutally honest person sometimes and if he likes what I write than idk thats good enough for me!
tbh a lot of what you listed already happens frequently to female characters in fantasy stories, i didnt have an issue with a male character undergoing similar treatment bc at this point it's just routine for the genre. she did always market the book as being for adults
@@v.anessa1451 Oh, very true. It felt ucky to have it happen to any character, though. It was like Jenna put Leila up on a pedestal for Tobias and the reader to worship but thought she was just making them equal. If Jenna had demonstrated that she was aware of this - that she was flipping the trope intentionally - then I would have found it humorously self-aware. But nope. No characters questioned this dynamic, the prose didn't highlight it as ironic. Like, Tobias broke his hand for an opportunity to apologize to her, and it's laughed off. He gets tortured and it's a punch line. She gets dragged by the hair down a hallway and its portrayed (rightly) as traumatic. This kind of inequality is gross regardless of which gender its pointed at.
My personal theory as to the odd change in character from Tobias it that the tournament broke his brain and so he clings to Lela in order to cope. That was the only way I could accept it and keep reading.
This made me laugh because of the typo for Leila. In my country Lela means dumb or idiot.
They could have had the savior's father shown as this very handsome and incredibly smart man. In the past he courted the savior on these qualities where even she thought that his intellect rivalled or bested her own. (During the time together she could reveal to him that a savior's magic becomes much weaker after giving birth due to most of it getting absorbed by the baby girl. He calls that a very interesting piece of knowledge that he's happy she found him worthy enough to tell.) His plan was to play it out until the baby girl was born and then make the savior's death look like she died during childbirth and that he took it upon himself in his wife's absence to 'raise' their daughter. Leila could be fully on her father's side as a grown woman standing as the savior watching over the competition. Tobias works out that her father killed his wife, but Leila sees Tobias as being the problem for daring to put blame on her father. After she finds out herself that her mother didn't die of childbirth, but was poisoned she tells her father who replies that he can't believe that someone would poison his wife. Leila thinks back on Tobias words of her father being the one who did it. In a ah ha moment her father puts the blame on a spy inside the castle. (The real intent of which is to both cover himself up and keep her away from Tobias for safety.) Which gives him the idea to have a 'family' talk with his daughter about Tobias knowing about her mother's death whilst the two of them didn't as very suspicious. He questions her on the guy asking what she knows of him. (In truth he's making him suspect number one to her and pulling them apart himself.) After which he wishes to make Tobias death in the competition happen quickly to avoid Leyla becoming any more aware. He also tightens security in his words, 'To keep my lovely daughter safe from possible assassin's due to recent developments.' (In truth it's to keep Tobias and everyone else far away from her.) He states he'll cover up all the rest of the details himself later after Tobias is dead. In the end, Tobias and Leila find out that her father was taking resources of her magic in various artefacts that she enchanted and was outsourcing them to a foreign kingdom to which he owed a great debt which needed repaying. Revealing he had courted another before after 'an accident' he managed to escape execution 'for a price'. Which would be the payment of artefacts he is sending to them.
Wow, what a plot. That'd be so amazing to read😍
I adore watching these videos because they help me write my book and develop my ideas, and I'm terrified of making such mistakes.
I'm writing too, and I watch them for the same reason. What's your genre? Mine current one is fantasy retellings
I lost it at "cart accident."
If you wanted that not to be silly you'd just say a riding accident. Much more chance that your horse throws you than a slow moving cart does you in.
Actually carts are incredibly dangerous, as they're not the most stable and the animals, especially horses, often panic. Being thrown usually isn't a big deal, but panicking animals entangled in a cart... even bystanders are in danger.
@@vivandefuncti8991 I mean it could happen, but... cart accident sounds like a medieval meme.
@@vivandefuncti8991 Agreed. I'd much rather fall off a horse for the 100-and-somethingth time than be involved in a cart accident. That could turn ugly real fast, while falling off a horse you can do hundreds of time and never break a bone (Living proof typing this lol).
I might be misremembering, but wasn't Tobias's father killed and his sister crippled when their blacksmith forge exploded?
So I noticed something, correct me if I’m wrong but in the first chapter Tobias when he’s like walking through the town, he gives backstory to the Savior and he literally mentions that the Savior has Ivory skin and violet eyes, so when he meets Leila, wouldn’t he know that she’s the savior? Because aren’t eyes the most noticeable part of a person? So wouldn’t he know just like as soon as he sees Leila and wouldn’t he know that Cosima isn’t the savior? Yes she does have ivory skin but she has green eyes. So what the heck? Please correct me if I’m wrong on anything I haven’t read the book yet
“And then she was born: a baby girl with ivory skin and violet eyes.” This describes the first Savior. Her daughter is described as having “striking” eyes. It goes on to say “no two saviors had the same shade of eyes”. Frankly, if Leila’s eyes are violet too, it’s sort of contradictory.
EDIT: wiki says Leila’s eyes are Amber…
@@amethyst.dawn.fanning HELP, the edit 😭😭
She goes against so much of her own writing "advice" in one book. It shows that she's only in it for the money and doesn't care at all. I believe she specifically mentioned in one of her videos that you shouldn't make (one of) the only gay character a villain, among so many other points she preaches but ignores in her own writing. Weird ASF. She's definitely not to be trusted lol
Orson Scott Card did the same thing.
I have never read any of Jenna's books, I've only watched her videos, so watching this video surprised me so much because of this. With everything that's said about this book I'm like "but... didn't she say, NOT to do that??"
When writing my own book, I knew that because my book is a fictional memoir of the first woman (and first gay) president (alternate history of the late 1940s), that the main character would be an anti-hero at best, so I made sure that my main cast was all queer and varying shades of kind/cruel so that it didn't feel like I was villanizing any sexuality in particular. From the reviews I got, I like to believe I pulled it off well!
Strange she talks about fridging a woman and stereotypical gay characters as a bad trope but she does it.
how did she fridge a woman? I missed that in the book ig, with the gay thing I agree
@@RandomPersonLol366 what does it mean to fridge a woman?
Fridging refers to when a character is killed (or tortured) solely to motivate the main character. The victims life doesn't matter, only how their death and/or suffering affects the main character.
In The Savior's Champion Tobias' sister is crippled in an accident and that is his motivation.
@@breezy3392 except Tobias' sister is based on Jenna's real life husband, who has that exact same condition
@@natestadler2352 Yeah, which is exactly why Jenna should know better and make Naomi a character beyond being nothing but Tobias's motivation. What is Naomi's character, what does she want?
I enjoyed this book but it should not have been marketed as an adult book. It was juvenile humor and very predictable.
I would love to see you two suffer through the sequel. It makes even less sense, and is even more trite and cringy. Please do it!
Thanks! And trust me, I'll eventually convince Maria to read it...
--Will
@@unresolvedtextualtension 😆 Best of luck
Yes, Yes!!! Read and review!!!!
@@JordanDCGehl Review? You mean roast 🤣
Hey - maybe they'll like it?
*secretly chuckles*
I used to watch Jenna's writing advice videos quite some time ago (could have been the months leading up to her book) and also think she's mostly enjoyable to watch and seems to be a nice and funny person. BUT I actually couldn't get myself to read the book after I heard what it's about etc. - because it just seemed to be... really basic? Like, for someone giving all this kind of advice, the story seemed too damn predictable and full of cliches. Last year I finally donwloaded a Preview to my Kindle and read the first chapter. And... was not that impressed... That being said: I will now watch your video and see what I missed (or not missed) ^^
you have two kinds of people. the analytical and the creative. the concepts ive heard from her are very helpful and i know others she has helped. but making a youtube video requires less creativity and more analysis. it sounds like her talents lie in the technical side of things, especially with her marketing background. but i do have to point out how many people here have heard about her. shes doing something right.
its like she has the knowledge intellectually but it sounds like it
doesn't carry over to her writing.
I haven't read the book but I have watched most of her videos. If I had to guess I would say she went into the book try to make it as inclusive and make sure that everyone got represented. That sounds nice the problem is when you are thinking about that you're taking away from the natural flow of a story. Because you have to think about who I have to plug this type of character in and I have to plug that type of character in.
I definitely have this problem when I write. Is scary sometimes
From even just the preview chapters available online there is intense ableism and some fatphobia from the MC's narration so if she was trying to "represent" people she fully failed on multiple accounts
When Layla showed up, the very second she showed up, I was like "is this the saviour? Really? Is it that obvious? Surely not" and as the book went on, the question changed from "Is this the saviour?" To "Okay, when the hell is this guy gonna figure it out?" Nevertheless it was a fun listen. It was morbidly hilarious sometimes and did get me hard in some chapters.
If you think this is bad you should see the way she treats her fans when it comes to this story. The gaslighting, the blatant insults, getting mad at people for liking characters she doesn’t want them to. Even to a point where she answers her plot holes but then backpedals and gives a different answer. It’s a fuckin shit show.
Honestly, I feel like Jenna just needs to realize that matter what, people will always have different opinions on the things that she creates, whether she likes it or not. Is it painful? Yes. But it's the truth.
Really? When was it? What happened? Spill it. I am so curious. 👀
@@temptationrosestudio which thing? 🤣
@@banettenighmare8645 Everything. Don't keep a girl in the dark.
I know that she doesn't like the characters Flynn and Cosima, but a lot of her readers do. Sometimes she comes off as annoyed that people don't share her opinions on them.
I'm an aspiring creator/showrunner and I watch Jenna Moreci channel. Usually out of 10 of her advices 9 of them are okay (something to remember of while writing, not revolutionary but not bad etc) and usually 1 or 2 really good tips per video (at least good for begginers which I am).
Anyway, I'm watching this video and you start roasting Tobias' poetry and I can't stop laughing because at some point Jenna was really upset about bad poetry in books and her advice was that not everyone can write it. Poetry that stays on topic and sounds good is hard. If that's not your cup of tea then just don't use it in a story.
Also some other smaller hypocrycies but that's the highlight, it's really funny to me.
(and no i havent read her books before because im fucking broke and im only reading library books, and ebooks/audiobooks aint for me)
I read Moreci's first book, Eve: The Awakening, several years ago after watching some of her RUclips videos, kinda to see if this is someone I wanted to take writing advice from, and I wasn't really a fan (I remember almost nothing about the book except that the main character didn't really seem to have a personality and I was never invested in the story at all). Since The Savior's Champion seems to be way more popular than Eve ever was, I was considering giving Moreci's books another go... Thank you for allowing me to not subject myself to this book.
Jenna is the embodiment of the phrase "those who can't do it teach it"
Jenna, who never hesitates to bash other writers, should also be wary of the axiom: "Be careful when you point your finger at someone else, because when you do there are three more fingers pointing back at yourself."
@@emmagrove6491Bullet train flashbacks.
And those who can’t teach, teach gym.
So Milo (or μήλο) is Greek for apple so this authentically ancient Greek inspired guy is literally just named Apple
There's also a famous Greek wrestler, Milo of Croton, who was supposedly the strongest man to live since Heracles. HE was also a follower of Pythagoras.
So yes, Milo is 100% a valid Greek name.
After the reference to John Mulaney I looked up "there's a horse loose in the hospital". Thank you so much for leading me to this, it is amazing.
Loved this!
I like watching Jenna just for fun, usually thinking about how she doesn't apply her own advice into her work. Loved your take on in, the format is just a little bit off, I mean, obviously you're a small channel still, but with such in depth analysis and reviews I feel you'll grow in no time!
How about Zenith by Sasha Alsberg next time?
Love!
I actually liked a lot of the side characters, mainly Flynn and Delphi. It's a shame that they were barley shown. After reading the second book I'm glad it touched on the Savior Sister, but they're still so one dimentional.
Not to mention Jenna shits on you if you like Flynn
"People can't be defined by one thing"? But if this book takes inspiration from the "Idiad", well...
"Discreet Telemachus"
"Long-tried, royal Odysseus"
"Noble swineherd"
"Long-haired Achaeans"
"Lovely Helen"
"Royal Menelaus"
"Wily Aegisthus"
NEED I GO ON? No, really, since all those books were originally transmitted orally, almost everyone had some kind of epithet to make them more memorable, or more than one epithet if they were REALLY important. All of those were from the "Odyssey" not the "Iliad", but still. I haven't read this book, and it sounds like I don't want to, but I do like her and her writing advice. She's hella fun.
I have heard a LOT of good things about her videos and her as a content creator. I love a good epithet and I think drawing from the Greek epithets as inspiration for the tournament laurels was one of the best ways she ACTUALLY showed connection to Ancient Greece. I just found a lot of the characters were very one note (when the author was trying to make them more complex) or the laurels didn't make a ton of sense (Mainly "The Benevolent" and I will probably die on that cross hahaha). - Maria
Is she a lovely person?? Not saying she’s a bad person necessarily, but the main reason I can’t watch her channel is because she’s so unnecessarily condescending. I wouldn’t mind as much if she could actually write books to back her harsh takes. She dissuaded me a lot from writing when I first started out bc I was nervous any time I slightly disagreed with her that I was a terrible writer because she is so aggressive about her opinions
Yeah, she's aggressively passive aggressive.
Some people are just incapable of realzing that being a modern person requires you to actually live in modernity, so they think making people who don't live in a modern society act "modern" makes them smart and endearing rather than insufferable.
I used to love Jenna’s content, so I picked up the sample chapters that she posted. I dropped it after the first chapter.
It was the way she introduced Tobias’s sister that did it for me. It was so… casual? Like, Tobias and (ostensibly) the audience are supposed to be emotionally invested in her, but it didn’t feel like Jenna was. She was just kind of there, filling the tragic emotional attachment character quota.
I think Tobias should have been gay, but because he's so handsome and fit, they forced him into the tournament. And by the end he and Koleo ended up falling in love. An enemies to lovers trope.
I would have loved the HELL out of that book! Except, you know, I liked the actual gay guy she didn't kill, so I would have picked that guy for Tobias's LI....
because all gay men are handsome and fit, 10/10 point 🙄
Yes! Hard to imagin there will be good fanfiction of the book!
Like they could get together and she develops a cruh on him and they become friends and end in a ruse marriage. And fake koleo death with her help and the sweet natural drama. Actually, make him bi. And them somehow overcome their differences afte a lot of work.
Could be cool.
@@bungeegum9286 No, but all men chosen to enter a tournament to marry the realm's holy queen probably would be
It sounds like the prloblem is that Jenna clearly struggles to follow her own advice
I think it's the same with many Authortuberrs - I cannot stop laughing when they go against their own advice - hypocrites lol
This would've been dope as a Mulan story: the MC is a woman, disguises as a man to enter the tournament to help her family, meets the Savior and falls in love. And it's a wlw ending.
No
Pardon my bastardized monty python...but the bachelorette hunger games is no basis for a system of government.
It’s probably not that far fetched.
So I watched this review and read the comments the other night and it really put me on the fence about reading the book. I've been watching Jenna for quite a while and was ready to read TSC until this review. But then I thought about how subjective art is. I thought about the movies critics love that I hate and vice versa. Creative pieces move people differently. Reviews on any form of art are not the same as say an appliance. If a bunch of people say "this vacuum has crappie suction," I probably won't by it. But in this case, I've decided I know my own mind and will be the judge for myself. So I'm reading the book anyway-to either my delight or dismay 😉 I will give Jenna the benefit of a doubt. It's the least I can do after all the things I've learned from her. Besides, she's pretty entertaining to watch! However, as a writer working on my first manuscript, knowing what people don't like is just as important as knowing what they do. My overall takeaway from this video...opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one.
@christinamartin6543 did you get around to reading it?
I am right in the middle of reading this right now. I came on YT doing a search for Jenna Moreci to find out if she ever mentions how long it took her to write this... And I found you guys. Apparently, I am not the only one who has the same complaints about this novel. I picked it up because I enjoy Jenna's channel, wanted to see her put her advice into action, and after reading mixed reviews, decided to form my own opinion. You would think that someone who offers decent advice and has such strong opinions about certain tropes would follow her own advice. The hypocrisy is incredible. This 'fantasy world' is barely a pencil sketch in the background, the magic system is dull and the romance is painfully boring, there's no chemistry. There is no real indication of what inspired the setting unless you've been told, and even then, there is no Grecian flavor. In fact there's no flavor at all, her world is so empty and generic. Jenna has so much personality, could she really have written this book? There's a point at the beginning of the tournament where Tobias complains about the monotony of the labyrinth. She thoroughly described her own story. I think Labyrinth of Monotony would have been a better title. If I manage to slog my way to the end of this, I am not bothering with the sequel, I 'll just watch your roast.
I feel like I'm pointing out the obvious, but Jenny breaks a lot of her own rules in her videos in her own book.
That shit's hilarious
I was enjoying this review until the woman casually dropped "the sister was a cripple." Dude. Don't call us cripples :D I'm not mad, it clearly wasn't said with malicious intent, but the fact is that word is most often used to insult us, so to hear it used in casual conversation is jarring and unpleasant. In general, please refer to us as "disabled." Most of us are more comfortable with that terminology than anything else. All right, I'll get back to the video, which is quite entertaining :)
Spanish or not, remember the opening line from Tolstoy: All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.
I feel like the accidental drawing thing could have worked if it was like
Instead of accidentally drawing her he’s like in the painting phase and he thinks of Leila or like specifically her eyes and he sees that he’s drawn Leila’s eye color instead and he’s spent so long on this one piece that he can’t do it again
It still wouldn’t be great but I feel like it would be something
It could have helped out the story I heard from you guys (didn't read it myself) if there was some sort of twist about Leila and what the Savior is. Like once the Savior has found someone they love, that person is drawn to them to the extent that nothing else matters.
Leila doesn't even need to be a bad guy or do it on purpose, it could just be how she (and other Saviors) is.
I love this, because what few videos of Ms. Moreci I have watched honestly annoyed me because the writing advice veered between so basic literally anyone could figure it out, or so specific I was wondering wtf she was reading that had the supposed content.
Exactly. Personally, when I started hearing that people didn't like her book I felt vindicated because her advice is either so unbelievably basic or so closed-minded it's absurd.
I could tell she lacked imagination which will completely kneecap a writer. That type of advice is good if you want to write an okay paint by numbers novel as long as they're applied correctly, but you can never ever write something great and daring with that advice.
@@christinabowman8885 for real. For all her hatred of certain tropes, it's mostly a lack of writing skills and not the tropes themselves. You don't even have to be a writer, it's something anyone who's well read would know.
my experience exactly
Thanks for the honest and thoughtful review. I totally agree with you. I see this book as the first draft prettied up to publish. I think if the author had spend some time with it in her bottom drawer and worked on something else she would've come back to this manuscript with a clearer view that might have made a lot of its faults spottable and then the next draft/drafts could have been spent fixing logic problems and developing characters and plots. Then dialogue, description and prose would've developed too. There are definitely some interesting things that if given more time in drafting to explore might have made this a good or even great book. But, unfortunitely, it was not given the time and was (I beleive) published way too early in the authors process. Note - you need to read the other one so I don't have to.... please?
Good news and bad news.
Bad news is, Tobias IS a Greek name. (Layla is also ancient Arabic so it's feasible there would have been cultural mingling.)
Good news is, Tobias is a Greek name derived from *Hebrew*, meaning it was only incorporated after the fall of ancient Greece.
I'm betting Jenna looked up Greek names and chose one that she liked the sound of without realizing that its origins place its use far later than the book's timeline, failing to account for the fact that Greece and its culture has been around for thousands of years and their naming conventions have shifted and contaminated. While it would've been gauche to pull names from the Iliad or Odyssey because there's too much cultural weight behind calling a character Achilles if it isn't acknowledged in-universe, you should be referencing things like documents and politicians of the era to get a feel for the names, not pulling up a baby names site and plugging in Greek.
And none of this excuses Milo, which is Slavic.
Can someone explain to me why a crown that is passed through matrilineal descent requires monogamous marriage?
AU where the queen person is like super gay. She does the typical runaway princess thing from the castle into this little rando village where she finds this young cripple woman her age who she falls in love with and, when found, _demands_ the cripple be taken with her. By this point the story is shown mostly from the two ladies' POV until we at last settle on Tobias, who is chasing after the cart hauling away his little sister. In an attempt to save her, he enters in a tournament to become this lady queen's husband so he will be given ultimate authority in order to free his helpless sister from the _evil_ queen's hold. THERE, now while it may still be cringe, at least we have a good motive for Tobias, as well as a way to incorporate his family into the story itself! If you _really_ wanna go with the family route, perhaps swap on occasion to the little sister's mom taking up a job at the castle, going slow and concise as she plots a way to save her own daughter in a more _quiet_ way. But, OH NO, almost all the way through, the mother is caught trying to rescue her daughter and is scheduled to be hanged (or perhaps burnt in the bronze calf to make things a little spicy~ 😏 --which was an ancient Greek specific form of torture turned into an event similar to fireworks since the screams of the one literally being roasted inside came out as cow-like) in only a few days, meaning Tobias BETTER win or see all that's left of his family either die or live as a slave! Don, don, DOOOON!
I love her as a RUclipsr I think she gives really fantastic advice and has genuinely helped me in my book writing process. There were lots of things about this book that were just not for me and I think that honestly it shouldn’t have been so explicit and it could’ve been a really good young adult book, it just was marketed to the wrong audience
29:00
I googled the Wordcount, it is a little over 140k. That should be about 400 pages. So she even extended that pagecount to appeal more to the “I like big books and I cannot lie” club. Which is funny tbh, since I have heard here that the book is filled with empty words which essentially mean that this is the first draft or this is just very bad, untalented writing by nature.
The Savior's Sister is much worse than The Savior's Champion. However, I can say that TSS did make me like the character of Cosima. You really get to see just how badly she is treated by Laila and Delphi. They are SO mean to her and for no reason other than to be mean girls. Cosima being a black sheep gained her a lot of sympathy from me personally. So much so, that everything Cosima did against Laila was completely warranted in my mind.
Kind of funny that I hated the book but love your review of it. I like to write for myself in my spare time and always have something playing in the background. English isn't my first language, but it's so much easier for me to concentrate than listening to a video in my native language on the side. That always distracts me too much. Anyway, love you guys, keep on.
Personally, my thoughts about Jenna, I find that her advice is somewhat useful, I don’t write novels, I actually am a audio drama creator, that’s a different medium, but I do apply some of her advice, a problem that I have though is, more often than not she will frame her advice as things that if you don’t do, or you do do, you are a horrible writer, and look, I’m probably gonna get a lot of hate for this next statement, but I’m still going to say it, there are literally videos of hers that I will avoid, because, most of them end up being a thinly veiled lecture in so-called diversity, negating sexism, or some thing else, and let’s not forget, the constant assumption that men can’t write women, the constant assumption that apparently male writers are just waiting to objectify women, but she completely ignores the mini women who write the same way, and does not want to acknowledge the inverse, and let’s not forget about the fact that she constantly speaks about people who write an all white cast, yet now we learn her books are based on Greece, but not very effectively at that, I hope she knows, just because someone’s dark skinned that doesn’t actually mean you’re writing a diverse book, but yet, she completely ignores when she makes remarks that disrespect the beliefs, or ideals of another person, case in point, she referred to changelings, and other such beliefs as myths, going so far as to say they were simply created to explain away Neuro divergence, and basically presented in a negative light, I am a traditional Native American man, we have explanations for those things in our culture, these are things that we truly believe, and I know people who follow traditional Celtic culture, and those people truly believe in those ways of life, and those spirits, so to minimize our belief system in some misguided attempt to seem conscious, is rather hypocritical and just overall annoying, the moral high horse in general that a lot of her advice seems to take doesn’t help. And I’m saying this as an Native American who is totally blind, and also autistic, and that particularly is why her statements pertaining to autism bothered me, is because, she is basically saying beliefs that people like mine hold, were simply fabrications to justify my existence and a negative light, but yet, I wonder how many of those people she’s actually been around, how much experience with those believes that she actually had, and how many peoples of other cultures with similar beliefs has she actually been around and interacted with, my guess is, barely any. Sorry my comment went all over the place, I kept remembering random things and didn’t quite know where to put them.
You're being turned off by her wokeism. I concur... that poisonous mentality has infected a LOT of people. It is, hopefully, starting to turn back the other way.
@@Swiftbow completely and utterly this!! I didn’t want to use that word, because when most of us use it in a disparaging way, people immediately get turned off by what we have to say. I completely agree, I sincerely hope the pendulum does swing in the opposite direction, because this is getting ridiculous!!! Apparently, free-speech is slowly becoming a thing of the past. The sad thing about this is, this woman is able to spew all of this idiocy, garner all kinds of sympathy points, diversity points, and whatever else, but yet, if someone wants to argue her points, no matter how objective and rational their argument is, because they don’t agree, they are going to be called immediately horrible human being, and told to“do better“ and be relegated to the extreme end of the political spectrum, it’s as if a rational discourse is completely impossible with these people. And the reason I say that is because, they believe they have the moral high ground, and present-day society reinforces the idea that they have the moral high ground.
@@felixsfriendthatgavehimthe2108 lol, I’m not laughing in a disparaging way, I tend to use commas in ridiculous ways, and I know this. I use a screen reader, it’s called voiceover, and it reads everything that’s on my screen, and I got into the habit of using commas, because when I write using them, the speech sounds more natural, so I apologize for having my comment look that ridiculous. I will definitely make a point of trying to break myself of this nasty habit, especially considering I am a writer myself.
@@nativewarmask9861 It has been the strategy of that side for DECADES to use name-calling on their opposition, rather than actually make an argument. "You can't talk, because you are an [fill in the blank]phobe is the general line.
I personally think they only THINK they have the "moral high ground" because that particular line usually puts the arguer on the defensive. "No, no... I'm not a [fill in the blank]phobe. They can do what they want with their lives. I just draw the blank at.... etc."
But that automatically cedes PART of the argument to the name-caller. So... for my part, I've decided to stop caring about the name-calling.
You make a similar point that my brother does... certain trigger words will cause some people to just tune out the rest of your argument. And that's a good point. But we also shouldn't let them censor us just because they like to stick their fingers in their ears. Most of the people THAT childish are beyond persuasion anyway.
@@Swiftbow first of all, I love your name, let’s just get that out of the way. Wonderfully succinct, I agree with every single point that you made, and you’re absolutely right, the inherent defensiveness that certain words evoke, does partially neutralize any argument that we can make, because, we are good people who simply want to be heard, and when we are vilified, and branded with such labels, our inherent reaction is to defend our character, your position to ignore the name-calling, and be stalwart in your convictions is an amazing position to take, I to attempt to take this position, but I will admit, I can be a very emotional and reactionary person, and I know that this is an issue of my own, but it’s the truth of the situation, hearing your words is honestly extremely helpful, because, sometimes, with the overwhelming vocal majority seeming to slant to that other side, and sometimes seems like we do stand alone, but yet, that other side will vilify and demonize those that belong to groups, but yet, their whole purpose is groupthink, is benign mob mentality, altruistic mob mentality, if you don’t believe in their diversity politics, if you don’t believe in their perception of diversity I should say, then you are evil, most of these people scarcely know what true diversity is, true diversity would be seeing a cannibalistic people, a people who believe in traditional scarification of infants, and a people who believe in human sacrifice, and not having a moral objection to any of them, because, those are not your ways, and they in no way impede your life, being able to live with these people in a environment without casting judgment, that is what real diversity looks like, perhaps my examples are extreme, but you get my point, they want surface level diversity, and they want brownie points, they want to be seen as a moral superior, as the benign arbiters of social justice, and most of these people, I would love to ask them, if they actually believe half of these things, are they simply regurgitating what they’ve been told to believe?
thought it would be cool if the Savior turned out to be Pippa. but nah it was the most obvious option
I’m not gonna lie, I had this thought at one point as well. And Leila just really loved Pippa and wanted to protect her…. *sigh* it could have been so interesting. - Maria
gonna be honest.. I got the book because I loved her art tips! And then I got the books. I actually loved the Savior Champion until like, midway through. The romance part actually didn't feel.. very good. it was like, "And then they made out, and made out again and again." Then there was the whole attempted r*pe thing.. and like, it felt like it wasnt about how Tobias nearly got violated, but how he was loyal to Leila. Wasn't great. And then I read the Savior's Sister, and I couldnt even get through it. I was literally reading the same damn book, scene for scene, but with someone else's perspective. uuuugh
I liked this book, but even on my first read through I noticed issues and things I would’ve done differently. I didn’t watch this video for so long because I didn’t want the book to be destroyed for me, but I’m so glad I did watch it.
This is a great analysis of the writing and you guys gave very good critique. It definitely gives me hope for my own writing because I feel like I have stories that are a bit more interesting and put together.
This is my second watch through of this video, and I still find it a hilarious video. I also love all the ideas you guys came up with to make it better. Maybe I’ll go write some fan fiction for these books now to make it better.
I’m glad you enjoyed this book but also found value in our thoughts! The more we do this channel the more I’d like to be able to bridge the gap between people who liked the books even when we didn’t. Comments like yours makes me want to be even better as a reviewer! Thanks! - Maria
@@unresolvedtextualtension
you’re welcome!
I’ve actually been doing the thing you suggested and watching all your guys videos because I find you all just so entertaining!
Funny how all this stemmed from you and will dunking on one of the books I like but hey, even I dunk on and laugh at a good chunk of the books I like/liked, so seems to make sense and makes it all the more egregious that I didn’t watch this video sooner.
“There’s a HORSE loose in the COMPETITION”
And John Mulaney just spears a guy.
Please take this as the biggest compliment: y’all make me terrified of publishing my fantasy book 😅. Let’s just say I’m gonna make sure to cook it up for as long as it needs. Keep up the awesome work 🫶🏼
I'm the kind of person who, when I don't like a book, I just go, ' okay. That was crap' and go on. But then, to see if the story gets better, I read TSS. And I flipped out!!¡! Why would she think this was a good idea?
Man, I tried reading this book, but regrettably, even with trigger warnings in the Goodreads description, it neglected to mention the worst trigger for me, making it the first book to ever make me actually vomit, lmao. I only read two pages. I'll take this as my summary of what actually happens in the book.
If you mind saying what the trigger was? I wanna read it but I’m a little worried now
I can't speak for OP, but I assume they're talking about the prologue of the book that describes in detail how the Savior's mother died, with an emergency surgical baby delivery for the cherry on top. I read the book years ago, so I honestly don't remember everything, but other than that the book is rife with extremely graphic violence, sex (though I don't think any penetration is shown explicitly), and the occasional assault. So take all that as you will. I'm normally pretty fine with reading the above, but I have to admit there were a few moments, especially near the end of the book, that were a little much for me.
@@lisaradtke5669 it’s even worse in book two when we see a bunch of old men masturbating 🤢🤢
This just sounds like such an infantile teenage book. "He was in love with her, but she was in love with him, and he was pissed because he got to spend time with her" blah blah blah. And this is supposed to be an adult novel? What adult would identify with this? Admit that you're writing for emotionally immature teenagers, and be done with it! (Or is this a reflection of the author's actual approach to relationships?).
By the way, this is hugely entertaining! So happy I found it.
Probably the second. I feel like she has such a shallow perception of relationships and personalities. I haven't read the book but having a moody male character is easy to write, however you have to know why he's moody, how far his mood swings go [this'll also determine the consequences to them], etc.
I just LOVE how Maria emotes while explaining the plot in her elegant Southern (?) accent! Also... does she have Greek background? Cause her "pffff" sounded too familiar 😂
lol, yes she is. Nice job. -KT
I'm being a little nick picky here, but Tobias is the Greek form of the Hebrew Tobiah. Also, Milo is originally from ancient Greece. Leila and Enzo, not so much. So ... 50/50.
I'm a name meanings geek.
Glad to see another name meaning geek fellow around here
I love name meanings! They've helped me big through my college papers 😂 Whenever I was lost I could always fall back on that. For example, Catcher in the Rye. Holden's sister is named Phoebe which is Greek meaning "light" (more or less). So she was sort of a beacon of light for him. That was half my paper 😂
@@valhatan3907 I'm also a name-meanings geek!
I am not hispanic, I have a terrible relationship with my parents, I would think of my chosen family, my friends of 8 years by now I absolutly adore, but thinking about your family absolutly should take priority over someone you just met and find hot!!!
There's a scene where Tobias is spending time with Cosima and she's trying to get handsy but he says he wants to get to know her. And the only thing Cosima asks is how many women has he f*ed... Has she never had a conversation before?
I haven't read the book but this feels like she's pushing her fantasy kb to her characters
Then Cosima tries to come on to Tobias and Leila gets mad at him for it??? Like what
@@banettenighmare8645 Yeah. Leila hasn't told him that Cosima is not the holy god queen, yet she expects him to spurn the woman who he believes could have him executed if he makes a wrong move. Leila is an idiot and a straight up psycho
I've watched Jenna for years and rather enjoy most of her videos...but I've never been interested in her books because I don't read that genre. Also the plot just never interested me. So I'm only about three minutes into this and honestly, I'm here for the tea!!! 😹😹 (might leave more thoughts here or in other comments lol)
Dude, I watched one of her vids and I didn't get through more then a minute before I decided I didn't like her personality or her content. I get most videos people make are mostly opinion based, even advice vids, but all it sounded like was her ragging on the tropes some people really enjoy.
I really enjoyed this and it was super insightful. Looking forward to watching more, especially if you guys do the sequel(?) lol.
I remember vividly watching Moreci as a young writer, and one video in which she claimed one didn't have to read to write, and that piece of "advice" is what ultimately turned me off her content. I never read her works as Sci Fi was just never my thing, but I truly believe to be able to write a piece of work that isn't just half baked "twists" on what you *think* are the tropes of a genre (because you don't actually read or enjoy the genre) you have to actually, you know, understand the rules of both writing and story telling, in all their subjective and non-concrete forms. It's a fool's errand to try to write without first having experienced being a reader.
You know how sometimes you feel like watching Hoarders to reassure yourself that your room is pretty clean? That's how i feel right now 😂
Yeah, the thing is, after you've read her book you cant take her advice without laughing anymore (even if its good advice), because she breaks almost everything she says ^^' Also the thing at the end where "the prince" goes from friend to attempting murder... reading that scene is just cringe after you've seen one of her “top 10 favorites” videos - she says in it that the dynamic in “the Count of Monte Cristo” between rich and poor dude is one she loves the most - she explicitly mentions how much she loved the part where it goes: (roughly paraphrased) "why do you hate me/betray me?"- rich dude: "because I shouldn't want to be like you" - And she goes and applies that shit almost in the exact same words into that end scene between Tobias and the prince guy... yeah just no... her Book is just so extremely tropy that after watching only a few of her videos you know every single thing that will happen in her books, cause she just pastes that stuff over😅Btw I think its real strength that I'm not going to rant about the rest and those sex/romantic scenes that read like a manual handed out to highschoolers about "safe, sane and consensual sex" - she tried way to hard on that one, it was so forced and unsexy...😵💫
Makes sense. Humans are largely action based, if someone isn't showing their advice working then nobody will listen to it.
@@meanncat3050 And yet people defend her on this.
@@LethalByChoice How many defenders actually read her book? Because I haven't found one
@@meanncat3050 You are not going to find many defenders of something that actually invested in and read the book if you are only looking in places where people are talking about what they hate about the book. People flock to people they agree and identify with, so you are likely to go to places where people agree with your opinions and validate your opinions, and your opinion will likely shape what you perceive the general consensus to be. I’m not saying you haven’t looked into both sides. Just putting that out there as it is why most people on each side of an argument can’t understand the other side, as they typically surround themselves with people that validate their opinion. And yes, I have purchased and read both of the books in The Saviors Series, and I liked them a lot, so there are people that exist who defend and have actually read these books.
oh, i am e perfect exmple of the "do as I say, not as I do" trope mentioned right at the begining, being good at giving advice says nothing about how capable your are to follow it yourself
Oh I would be so excited if y’all did the second book at some point
What I think would have been interesting is if Tobias had figured out that the sovereign was evil and when he went to go tell Layla she was glittering in the sun and he figured out she was the savior so he didn't know who to trust.
I think it makes some sense that they all don't just start killing each other from the beginning because they don't know what the challenges are going to be and some of the challenges might require working together (or like there are some challenges where they would have died if it wasn't for this one character with a specific skill), but what annoyed me was when they killed off a character right after that character had just done something useful, like... so it turned out that the character who murdered him was one of these super-confident assassin but I still think it would have made more sense to wait with the murder instead of killing someone *right* after they proved themselves to be of use.
Anyway I don't think it's that strange he would be thinking about Leila when he's about to die, because he is in love, but the book set him up as someone who cares for his family to the point where he basically sacrificed his life for them, so... yeah.
For me it’s really how little he thought of his family in that moment because you are right! He was sold as someone very close to his family. - Maria
The thing about the portrait reminded me of a poor copy of Eragons magic Picture he made of Arya in Eragon. But there it kinda does make sense since he didn’t drew it directly but had to imagine something to appear on the paper because of a spell and was bevor he did it completely frustrated because he fell for her and she openly pushed away his efforts of winning her heart.
But seriously tho, I’ve seriously considered buying and reading her books, so I looked up reviews. She got a lot of good reviews and a lot of people claiming that it’s their favorite book, and I understand that not every book can please everyone so maybe that explains the bad reviews? And those that actively dislike the book honestly sound way too nitpicky to me. Or they’re just not the target audience.
I really don’t know if I want to read the book. Books are a money and time investment, so I’m still deciding if it really sounds that bad. I mean, a lot of people seem to love it.
Honestly, I’d recommend you try it if the premise sounds interesting! Personal preference is definitely real and just because we didn’t like it doesn’t mean you won’t! - Maria
Unless your art style is intentionally leaning into being intuitive & potentially more abstract (like, it’s part of your style that you just embrace your impulses & see what happens) it would be extremely hard to just zone out and draw a completely different face from the one you want FOUR times. Plenty of artists lean towards a particular unified style, and plenty more artists struggle with “same face syndrome” so I could see it happening maybe the first time? Sometimes you just settle into a way of drawing that is very safe for you instead of pushing yourself to improve. I could see a circumstance where Tobias has been sketching Layla a lot just for fun, so has gotten used to drawing in a particular style, so when trying to draw Cosima he finds it a struggle to shift into drawing a new face & just defaults to what he thinks is pretty. Maybe he struggles to capture cosima’s likeness but drawing Layla comes way easier to him (maybe bc he’s had a lot of practice but also when you like the look of something it might be easier for you). So maybe he has a bunch of attempts to capture cosima photo-realistically that don’t look the best, a few that have more work put into them but are more stylized & in order to “salvage” the work he learned into his style which has been influenced by his affinity for drawing Layla so it looks prettier but there are some weird flourishes that just make it kinda weird to present to the savior. There’s also the fact that he’s drawing cosima from memory, but he struggles to make his memory of her evocative in the painting. So when he’s trying to recall what he thinks as “pretty” he can’t help but default to traits from layla. The portraits are a weird mish mash of both of them. And maybe that’s embarrassing to present bc Tobias doesn’t want to be mocked for not being able to accurately capture cosima & be seen as a bad painter, nor does he want to be seen as treasonous for having feelings for Layla which would be revealed through the painting. I think there can be a way to make the painting plotline work, but zoning out and drawing your girlfriends face by accident four times does not feel representative of what it is really is like to be an artist
This is a funny review but please don’t call someone a “cripple” even in a book it’s very ableist
What the heck was the point of having "the royals" as a group? You have men who are supposed to have knowledge of political issues yet have them do nothing with that knowledge. The best they do is show Toby how to play a game which any guy could have done. She knew she was going to write that companion book so she could have at least built up the mystery from the girl's side a bit more. Heck Leila was killing politicians left and right, why not use some of the traps to kill the politicans then leave them for the guys to accidentally find? The "Royals" could notice his clothing and possible rank in society and we as readers would get to know the reason they were killed in the 2nd book. It's not a terrible book, but it sure knew how to waist opportunities.
I thinking asking for Leila to use other people in smart ways to her advantage is asking a LOT. The politics of these books is WILD. - Maria
@@unresolvedtextualtension it's less for Leila's benefit and more for ours. This world had little to no padding when it came to its political structure. I'm not saying she had to tell us how a law was passed in the world but if you made a group specifically knowledgable about politics why not use them. All we know by the end of both books is that "the political guys work with her father so they are all bad" which is not giving us much to work off of. Do they raise taxes on poor families, do they make laws that benefit them in a whim but screw over the little guy (like if you have over $5000 you don't pay taxes on a Tuesday), we dont get any info about them or this world but are supposed to care when Leila goes and kills 1 of them cause Man = Bad.
The only lorals that get time to shine were (I think) the intellectual(and 1 other I forgot(botanist?)) in the poison game, and Toby in the gift game(who messed it up). It could have been easy to have the guys come across a dead body(which didnt happen at all during any of the trials so far) and 1 of the "nobles" could have said "hey wait I know this man, its Jake of house Whatever. He worked with my father in shipping crops across the sea. Last time we saw him he said he was gonna go speak with the sovereign about expanding ports for exotic goods." Then in the companion book we have Leila listening in on her father and Jake who are discussing making a port to make smuggling slaves and s** trafficking easier, and Jake gives the Sovereign some money to sweeten the deal; which gives us a reason why she and the reader wants to kill Jake. She could send him a letter from her father saying to "meet him in 1 of the catacombs he found a good spot to start up shop" and when Jake gets to the dark tunnel where no one can hear him, Leila kills him and leaves the body. We now would have a way the politics work in the world and a reason for why Leila kills off politicians (neither of which we had in EITHER of the actual books).
I've known about her for years. She's not very good. That's me being polite.