it got worse somehow (THE SAVIOR'S SISTER review | Jenna Moreci)
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 16 янв 2022
- We have a Patreon! Join to be part of our bookclub and discord.
Patreon: www.patreon.com/unresolvedtex...
You asked for it; we deliver unto you our review of The Savior's Sister by Jenna Moreci, sequel to The Savior's Champion.
Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6hJVaT8...
Google Podcasts: podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0... 
Развлечения
What really just ejected my soul from my body when I was reading this was that not only were She and Her capitalized, but also Woman, Daughter, Baby, and so forth. Leading to one of my favorite lines from Brontes, "My Daughter is an insufferable Bitch."
"He's literally just a man doing his job who is terrified of the person employing him." So, like 70% of the American workforce.
@@noneofyourbusiness7965 well good for you
I'm not personally a fan of Jenna as she is always been kinda condescending while giving advice and has made it kinda clear that if you don't plot out every scene of your story before you start writing than she thinks you cant be a good author.
She also criticized the way that people say "the characters took the story in a different direction" as meaning you don't know your characters well enough and that you don't know how to plot things. Which is funny because I feel like sometimes you can see her pushing the plot forward even if it doesn't make sense for the characters.
characters are roughly planned out but should really evolve and shape during writing, and take the story through different paths as a result. if they don’t and instead just remain the stoic planned out character then that’s a sign of lacking creativity imo
Says the author who can't depict the world to save herself or make the characters make sense beyond just 'THEY'RE IN LOVE!'. She marketed it as fantasy but there's nothing fantasy like beyond her genderbent Jesus fic.
Debut authors giving writing advice as YT content creators are setting themselves up to be held at a higher standard than most debut authors. They give advice as though they are an authority on the subject but then cannot follow through with their own work. I'm sure they don't mean to be misleading, but they are.
Absolutely. That's one of the reasons I kind of stopped making videos on my channel. I don't want people to think that I think I'm some kind of writing genius or something, and then read my books and be disappointed. I try not to give advice about things that I don't think I do particularly well.
Whereas Jenna writes the most misandric book I've ever read in my life, and then puts out a video about how to write good male representation. 🙄
“Those who can’t do teach.”
-No idea who said that first
@@danielkaczmarski5688 “ Those who can’t do, teach. And those who can’t teach, teach gym.”
Dewey Finn “ School of Rock”
Some people start as editors and journalists then publish a good first book later in their lives. But authortubers are a different demographic and few can say "oh I haven't published anything yet but I worked for Penguin on scifi for five years".
I'm pretty sure they only want to make a quick buck and building an audience for their "books". Writing advice tubers are all full of shit, the only true advice is to actually begin to write.
One of the big issues I personally have with Moreci, and her advice is how she preaches "Show not tell" and "Don't over describe". She doesn't describe *at all*.
it’s also quite impossible to show instead of tell without describing.. but yeah idk where the description hatred comes from. granted authors in the far past like Tolkien went a tad overboard but there’s also the fact that his books are still read and still serve as the inspiration for all fantasy books today.
if I’m taken into a world, idc if it’s a different planet and time or good ole london 2023, i wanna know where im at and what it looks like. description is crucial imo
@@greychiBut that's the thing, I have a feeling that Jenna hasn't read any REAL fantasy. Not only that, but she revealed that she hates world building. That right there should already tell you that she's going to write a terrible fantasy.
@@danielsmithiv1279wdym by real fantasy? I get your point but I hope you’re not gatekeeping
Calling it adult fiction is an insult to adult fiction. The only reason it classifies as adult fiction is because of the large amount of sex and violence.
Well just the sec honestly, there are younger genres with a lot of violence
and in my opinion, the amount of these 'adult' scenes is very unnecessary.
Wouldn't it be more interesting if the story involved Leila trying to figure out who are the assassins but as she falls for Tobias, there's a conflict as she thinks he could be one of the men sent to kill her?
One of the things I think would have been really cool would have been her initially getting in Tobias' face and accusing him of killing the people in the tunnel being a test. She was trying to see how he would react to try and figure out who the assassins are. Then the reason she is with him so much is he is the least likely to be an assassin, so he's the only one of the competitors she is safe to trust at all.
It’s honestly really interesting to see that Moreci doesn’t follow any of her own tips (some of which have actually really helped me with my own writing)
This book is listed as adult fiction but if you remove the sex and murder its beyond juvenile in literally every aspect. Glad I'm not alone in criticizing it for that.
I think a lot of her fanbase is young adult. The writing lessons/advice she gives on her channel is quite basic, list-based stuff. It's really only helpful for those who are new writers or aspiring writers. Her channel doesn't have anywhere near the depth of those like Brandon Sanderson or Diane Callahan - or even Abbie Emmons.
@@alexandernorman5337 yeah there’s such a contrast between her advice and channels like Hello Future Me.
Jenna’s advice feels like “here’s top ten tips to writing great female characters. Number one: give her a personality”, which is a given. Some of her videos also feel like repeats which made me not watch as often.
They really do feel like that sometimes. I think part of it is just the content mill aspect: there's a limited amount of generic writing tips you can give, and yet she also needs to keep pumping out videos at a steady rate. I also feel like she may just not know how to give longform, in depth criticism, though that's kind of uncharitable on my part.
--Will
@@gloriafrimpong17 I've watched a few of her videos and in most of them it seemed like she was salty and sarcastic. it's sometimes funny, and it _is_ refreshing to hear someone say "and that's probably because they're idiots!" in a joking way with no "just kidding" or disclaimer, but her energy has always come off toxic and crude to me. I don't know why.
Also, I'm sure she doesn't talk the same in real life as she does in videos because _dang_ does she send the pitch to space. She probably has to film in a glass-free room, and regularly buy new lenses for her camera. She has this pattern where she'll talk at a normal pitch and then just send it, and it's hard for me to deal with. Partly because it's annoying, and partly because it turns into a pattern after awhile and I don't recognize that she's saying words anymore.
@@cifge_404 yeah I actually briefly unsubscribed from her a couple years ago because her sarcasm/edginess was becoming a tad bit overbearing and overly condescending at some point
As someone who loves wordbuilding, complex multi-layer characters, drama, twist and turns and little bit of cliches with twists of their own and writes her own fantasy/scifi book series, I used to watch Jenna's videos for a long time but I was disapointed how shallow her writing advices are. I remember vividly how during a stream she laughed at my question if a dark fantasy book can be too dark. My opinion of her become lower after that.
Omg this is gonna sound weird but I remember that and I legit wanted to unsub after that. She was with her other author “friend” (in reality they just used each other for views and to push their self published work onto the others channel)
But that’s neither here nor there 🙄 she was such a bitch for that. Don’t listen to anyone who puts down world building like she does. ESPECIALLY if you’re writing a fantasy book. Shes a self published RUclipsr who puts out repeat content of her own shallow views on writing. She couldn’t see her own reflection from the inside a kiddie pool.
I used to skim her videos for when I needed a spark of something, anything, to fix a block (her Do videos) or to take a step back and remind myself of really obvious problems I might not always be thinking about (her Don't videos).
Like "oh, is this relationship too cliche?" or "is this a stereotype cause it feels like a stereotype" or "ooh, you know, I DO like #5 on your top ten romance tropes, I shall do that!" level basic stuff.
Even just from what I gleaned by her referencing them her own videos, though, I never had any interest in reading her books.
Ironically she cries about the "problematic" stuff she does in her top 10s yet she does it in her books, especially eve the awakening.
It's an odd weakness writers tend to have; they can logically know when something is problematic, but then don't recognize it in their own work because of unconscious biases. For Jenna specifically, I always get the impression from her that she's not particularly good at looking at her characters and work dispassionately.
--Will
@@unresolvedtextualtension Something that is really ironic with that is that one of her peices of advice that I remember clearly was to see your characters as tools. If a character is a tool a writer should only care about them being liked to the point it would benefit the story. Instead they are all the wrong kind of Tool.
@@CharlyDeamen I was playing Legendary Edition this morning actually. Going Infiltrator this run. Plotters have a problem with characters in general, as is the nature of that kind of writing. More of what I was trying to get at was that, from what I have seen, she is not looking at her characters objectively for the good of the story. There needs to be a balance of not being too attached to your characters, so you can do what you need to do for the story with them, but also caring enough to write them effectively. She was caring about them in the wrong way in my opinion. And if you have a link to that Mass Effect fanfic I am interested to check it out. I tried my hand at one, but world building and writing in an established setting is really not my Forte.
That alone turned me off from her content for a long time. She says having tropes is “fine” but then turns her nose up at ones she doesn’t like, or ones SHE claims is “problematic.”
She criticizes them to death. Jenna I hate to break it to you sweets but not all of us like the boy next door. Some of us like the biker dude that just laid someone out in a parking lot🤣✨ If liking certain characters makes me problematic then reading the same characters would be boring AF.
@@IWroteSomeThings I was watching one of her videos yesterday
"People aren't just looking for a quickie" and girl have you seen a teenager/young adult in the past 10 or something years?
"The relation is cute and it belongs in a better book" My Gods, that burn was so smooth 😂😂
We need more writers to accept better criticism, i know the tea of a lot of them who block their readers on social media or saying excuses about their mistakes on the book on twitter. So as a young bilingual writer, i want more videos like this. I love the roast and hear what you guys need to say 🖤
@@fannymackk Unfortunately, it is easier to be published than have such a good story or have the skill to write something nowadays. However, I don't think that a good writer was born successful. But, on the other hand, I don't believe that every successful book has well-done written either. So yeah, maybe writing isn't for everyone, but "everyone" has a different way to learn, or they are so damn lucky inside of this business like Gabbie Hannah (in my opinion). For me, to be talented, you must read, write, and learn every single fkin day, and THAT is a pain in the ass, not easy at all. I get you, but in my opinion, talent doesn't appear inside you. There are types of intelligence that your brain can easily develop than the rest of the others. You have to improve that intelligence to become good at something (but it doesn't guarantee that everyone would like it). Either way, this business is somehow unfair because talent is not enough.
That's true but there are also a lot of writers out there that are awful when giving "constructive" criticism. I'm also a bilingual writer,(First language is English) and I've seen what's been said in these groups. A lot of defensive writers and a lot of snobby ones too. This video is more constructive then actually rude (except that one attempt at attacking Jenna as a person, but I think that was satire), I love watching vids like these!
I block my readers on SM. Because I firmly believe review spaces are for readers, and I don’t want to butt in. Not all criticism is constructive, nor does it have to be. But real talk, once the book is out, I’m not changing it. So to the extent even genuinely good critical reviews are made, it’s not going to change the already published book unless I’ve hurt a group of people. Now, some of me and my friends will read each other’s reviews to see what we can glean on a craft level for future works, but other than that, I don’t read reviews and wouldn’t watch them either.
@@fannymackk Nobody is ever born to write. Writing well is fucking _hard_ , for ALL writers. If you don't see that, you're either delusional, or you're still an amateur (we all gotta start somewhere) and you haven't matured enough as a writer to realize this. I mean Earnest fucking Hemingway was quoted as saying "the first draft of anything is shit." by numerous sources (I think in that same quote he mentioned that there's a mechanical side to writing (i.e. the craft, the "engineering" side of storytelling) and you can't escape it).
Innate talent is a fantasy of the uninitiated (or for the narcissistic gate keepers).
To be clear, I'm not trying to attack you, I just hate this whole "you either have it or you don't" mentality which negates the fact that it's a craft like any other. Just like building a house. Only the tools are different (and obviously the function is different, though it DOES serve an evolutionary purpose).
@@firstlast-oo1he Agreed 100%. I will say that some folks do have a natural affinity for storytelling, but that certainly doesn't put them on some sort of pedestal--their journey is just different. Every writer has their own journey to embark on honing their craft, so the moment we blame something like a lack of talent for our shortcomings, we're blocking opportunities to improve. Almost every writer is going to suck in the beginning, and that's a necessary step we all have to take. Stephen King is a famous example of someone who went through years of struggle before getting to where he is now. Telling someone to stop writing because they aren't getting it right is unhealthy advice.
Writing's not for everyone, sure. But that's only because people who lack passion for it won't succeed in any capacity.
Me: Expecting Saviors Sister to be about the Saviors SISTER
Saviors Sister: Is about the Savior
Me: *shocked pikachu face*
A book from Cosima's perspective does sound like it'd be a lot more interesting...
I wouldn't have realized that until you brought it up lmao
In terms of Casima and Layla its also weird is that, why is Layla insecure, I'm sorry but would everyone in the universe not see Layla as their beauty standard because she's the Saviour. She could have all the zits and all the things that is currently seen as "not beautiful" in our society and she would probably still be the beauty standard because of her power in the world.
TLDR Layla's insecurities feel contrived and not believable within the world building. Tl
You know, I didn't mention it, but I thought of that too. It's one of the ways the world building really doesn't make sense, especially if the Savior's are a chain of mother's and daughters who would all look somewhat the same. It's one of the ways the shallow world building stands out, and also I think a case of Jenna wanting her characters to be a certain way from the outset and not letting them be an organic part of the world.
--Will
That's like saying a model can't have bad thoughts of themselves, all the models out there aren't allowed to hate the body they're in just b/c they "fit the beauty standard " bad mental health doesn't care how others see you it just warps your sense of self and reality. Think of all the beautiful people that have EDs or body dysmorphia or depression, just b/c they're seen as attractive doesn't mean they can't have these thoughts.
Also Leila has a father that hates her and calls her " a dumb c*nt " in public let alone what he's said to her growing up in private and has been shown to be physically abusive and manipulative, she also knows her father hates her so much that he want's her dead just like he killed her mother, living in a home like hers wouldn't build her confidence to think she was the best thing to walk the earth, her fathers crushing hate would effect her just like any other child with an abusive parent.
I agree here. It feels as if Cosima is the beautiful one because she meets current society's beauty standards: slim thick. But there have been times when a smaller, more petite look has been the beauty standard, so it's not hard to believe that the Saviour would be that beauty standard when it's not even far-fetched that her body type could be, it has in the past.
@@unresolvedtextualtension totally! I think the same about how misogynistic the world of TSC and TSS is. It makes no sense. It would make infinitely more sense if their world was more of a matriarchy, but I feel like Jenna just wanted to write about men being misogynistic and women being oppressed, even though it made no sense for that world. Like the fact that people were surprised that Leia could fight. Why? Do women not fight in this world? Why not? It just doesn't work with that world.
@@StarfishGoneToxic Neither is Leila, her blood line was just blessed by the gods.
I remember when she promised a give away of a signed copy to the first person that guessed the title from the acronym. Literally everyone guessed immediately. She then in her next video was like “no one has guessed it yet. Hint, it’s not the Saviors Sister.” To my knowledge she never gave away that signed copy.
I just noticed something! Why Every Savior had one child?? Was there a Savior who wanted a big family??? Why every Savior had no specific personality. It would have been cool that every Savior had their own Laurel like Circe the Dauntless, whatever name the merciful, Leila the Cruel! Leila having an extended family would have been cool.
the savior can’t have more than a one child
When you watch an hour and a half video on a book you didn't read specifically because you know the review will be juicy 😂 So interesting to see how the writing advice she gives does not seem to land in her own writing.
The father being the villain just... ugh. For one, it was probably the clearest plot twist next to Leilah being the Savior, which I still wish she wasn't. Tobias, over and over, said he did not love the Savior, did not care, and just wanted the money for his family. How much more interesting would it have been if he had stuck to that and Leilah was just this routine, kind, and empathic woman with whom he connected? Still could have the sleuthing and murdering in the companion novel, just with someone else.
But the king wants her dead? Why?! She's the only thing keeping this country of yours alive. Without her, the land becomes barren, rivers dry up, the sky turns black, and disease and famine return. How can you want to be king and still want this? So congrats, you are now the Monarch of Dreignleic; enjoy being the only one alive in a dead kingdom.
It makes me think Jenna didn't think this whole mortal goddess thing through. Because when you make a character this vital? Nothing is going to happen. It's the same issue in many stories when the world is on the line; we know the heroes are going to win elsewise the country and or world is doomed. At least in the TSC, its not the world at stake but the country... but we still know nothing is going to happen.
"Musume..."
"Who has an inexplicably Japanese name."
Jenna is a firm believer in diversity, to the point where she has that checklist ready whenever she's introducing a new character. It's why the races are all over the place in her writing even when it's not explained about the history of the region and why it's so multiethnic. Because that would be world building and actually interesting.
I think this could work if…. Like it was explained that Musume is from another country far away and was sent as a… lady in waiting or something. But… she is never acknowledged as foreign in the text! - Maria
@@unresolvedtextualtension That's kind of my point. All the different name styles and appearances are never shown as foreign, but there's no mention given as to why everything is all mashed together. It's like a modern day city with all its subcultures and immigrant families building lives with the locals, but there's no sign that her world is ACTUALLY multicultural in the same way as ours is. It's just there because her personal politics state that they MUST be there.
People wouldn't complain about diversity if it didn't usually end up like this, a nonsensical mishmash that's poorly written. Give me the details of why and how all these people came together. Give me reason to feel like you actually care as an author and aren't just using a checklist.
@@WandererEris I recently read another book that did something like this, where most of the central characters were basically caucasian and then randomly there are a few Japanese-sounding characters. It was so distracting because the world building in this story was also too poor to convincingly explain how they got to be there.
While I think Jenna's doing a good thing motivating newbie writers, I ultimately stopped following her platform because of the political overtones that frankly are counterproductive to good writing. World building matters because a setting shapes the culture of your characters, which influences their decision-making throughout a story. There are still countries even today that are still 90+% one race and their decision-making will be very different from a truly multiracial country like the USA. The variation in those dynamics is honestly more interesting to me. Unless the setting justifies it (again, world building), not every story needs to cover the whole checklist of ethnicities.
I don't think you need to explain why a region, especially a trade center, is multi ethnic.
That's the easy way to get people who just exclude other races just because of "historical accuracy", then complain that someone depicting race analogues that aren't usually depicted is just "forcing diversity". Which is dumb.
@@jayreese8522 IS Thessen a trade centre? Do we know enough about the world to judge that?
And I'm not making a historical statement, I'm making a biological one. Human skin tones adapt to different climates, which is why we have different skin colours in the first place. If Thessen is depicted with a warm climate, why are the main characters so white? If the area was originally a desert, why is the majority of the populace not tan to brown instead of white?
You kinda have to look at this objectively to see that Jenna just didn't do any world building to explain these things. Look at something like the Stormlight Archive that does take the time to world build. Most of the characters in that book have a middle eastern to indian complexion and demographics and racial mixing is commented on because it makes sense to do that whenever it gives us a better idea of the characters and their history. Jenna just lazily slapped together a bunch of different ethnicities and said good enough.
I like when Will said "This was a good guy and I murdered him" because I think that is exactly what I as a reader was expecting from the book and Leila's conflict, but the author was entirely unwilling to go there. In this book, everything Leila does is justified because there are no good guys; as soon as someone becomes even vaguely complicit in Bronte's plans they deserve death, full stop. Which is a horrendous moral system to have, and also, in my opinion, makes Leila's "oh the Tournament is so bad, it's barbaric, people die for nothing"-take COMPLETELY invalid. Leila seems like EXACTLY the type of person who would be like "this tournament is chill actually, if these idiots want to sign up just to kill and die, then let them." Her only valid reason for not liking it, imo, is that she will have to marry the winner. Every other reason just feels so fake and disingenuous. Leila, to me, does not care about people, not in the slightest (which is one of the many reasons she is entirely unfit to rule a realm). She's a grumpy asshole and as soon as someone doesn't put their own life on the line for her or is simply a little grumpy towards her they are a HORRIBLE person. The double standard is truly astounding. And this would be an interesting concept to explore! But that won't happen, it didn't in this book and it won't in any sequels, because Leila is Jenna's Little Murder Queen and this is a feature, not a bug. So yeah, I hate Leila. She is an unpleasant, awful person, and the fact that Jenna seems unwilling to admit that (or simply cannot see it) does make me wonder about her own morals, not going to lie.
I think questioning her real life morals goes a bit far. It sounds like Leila is her wish fulfillment character.
@@nichoudha Yeah, maybe "morals" isn't exactly the right word, maybe "way of thinking" would be better? I mean, I certainly don't think Jenna believes we should actually murder people left right and center for small transgressions, and I also don't think she herself is a horrible person with horrible morals. But the book does make me question what she qualifies as a transgression, which actions she thinks are irredeemable, who deserves sympathy in her eyes, and how she just generally feels about both characters and, by extension, fellow humans. Especially because she is very open about the fact that she hates people and that she thinks friendship and "good people" are very rare, and has a very clear stance on how you're supposed to feel about the characters. And for me this is impossible to not take into consideration when thinking about the book.
I recently realised something about this series... The evil plot of the Savior's books is to have Leila murdered on her wedding night, and blame her death on another country, so the king figure can go to war and invade other lands... which is the exact evil plot of the Princess Bride. Which just so happens to be Jenna's favourite movie. She even named her dog Buttercup. So did she... COPY the evil plot?? Because her world doesn't even suit this motivation, as you said, yet that's what Brontes is doing.
(Also, the love interest even gets caught and tortured by the king and his right hand man.)
That totally could be true, but I personally don't think that's a valid critique. People copy ideas all the time. Every book I've ever written has started out with somewhat of a copy of some other story's idea, but in a different way that I wanted to see done. It's not like plagiarism or something to take an element of your favorite movie and create a new story with that same element, because it's something you enjoyed.
Also have you guys seen the fist episode of Atlantis? Couldn’t help but notice some VERY apparent similarities
Subconscious or even direct inspiration is understandable. It just stood out to me in this particular case, because the evil plot of this series seems out of place in this world. It's almost like the author felt so inspired by her favourite story, that she went and wrote the same element into her own book without giving enough thought as to whether this motivation even makes sense in the world she created.
Like our fine podcast hosts pointed out, the villain has this goal of taking over the world in a way that makes no logical sense given how wars actually unfold.
@@CassTeaElle i agree except she said in one of her videos to not copy people's stories and it makes you a bad writer, so it's a valid critique since it would make her a hypocrite. the video, ironically, is called "how do i know if my writing sucks?"
The novella version of the book they described made me think of The Princess Bride.
THAT'S IT. I need you guys to rewrite The Savior's Champion and The Savior's Sister as a mother gothel/rapunzel book with a complex romance/psychological profile. What you guys are describing literally has me drooling over. A well executed book like that... with a literal prince-consort situation... ughhhhhh. Droolinggggg. Also, if you guys want to read some GOOD political intrigue, I recommend The Captive Prince. It's an adult novel too, but way more interesting than these two. And way shorter. It's like 300 pages. (You know, like a normal sized book!)
I haven't read Savior's Champion, but I watched reviews to see if it had explicit content in it. It looked interesting, but judging by Jenna's overall energy I was suspicious. And it turns out I was right. Anyway.
In watching the reviews, namely this one and their previous, I have been inspired. Their idea of what would've been awesome really vibes with me! Mother Gothel parent?? Tournament to choose the husband of a basically goddess?? Intrigue?? Complex sibling relationships?? I want it all! Problem is, I'm not entirely sure what exactly to do with it.
The Captive Prince is one of my fav series ever !!! I've read book 2 and 3 at least 3 times each !!!
@@mademoiselleluz3631 it's about time someone with some taste showed up! I've been waiting! 😂😂😂
Reminds me of how I’ve just convinced myself that Tobias fell in love with a handmaiden instead of Leila.
Hey guys, loved the analysis! I have some things to add:
1. There's actually a rather straight forward solution for the "killing the Saviour" plot without changing the whole dynamic - the implication is that those powers strictly go from mother to daughter and the system has been like that for ages, right? So, no Saviour ever had more than one daughter and no first daughter ever died as a baby or had an accident as a child? The whole "one single straight line of ancestry" always irritates me, even with magic involved. What if there are women from side lines of the family who either have the same powers (maybe a weaker version?) or one would get it if the Saviour dies? "You had a secret twin sister" would be way too cheesy, but she couldn't have been aware if there was some second cousin secretly groomed to replace her.
2. I love how you mentioned the whole logistics about warfare. You basically have three main options: A militia, mercenaries or a standing professional army (also, obviously, combinations) Militia is cheap, easy and available as soon as you rule over people, but they are also limited by time (especially farmers) in pre-industrial societies and a big risk due to their lack of experience as for most of history warfare was basically 50% psychology, who gets the other sides army to flee first. Mercenaries are usually more experienced, but also far more expensive while you need them, there actually needs to be a pool available (poor, frequently neutral/not aligned countries were they come from). And they are also a risk if you can't pay them any more, so never rely too much on them. Standing professionals exclusively existed in exceptionally large Empires like Rome and only became de facto standard, on a large scale at least, approximately in the 18th century. Monarchs all over Europe implemented economic reforms just to be able to have an income large enough to keep that up. What I haven't mentioned yet are professional warriors from the nobility like European or Aztec knights, Samurai, Spartans and so on, because they can only exist in some kind of Feudal-ish system which... I don't know, there doesn't seem to be much worldbuilding so who even knows.
Regarding the situation at hand, the ruler is building up a secret merc army? Doesn't make too much sense. If they are your own people and you train them, they aren't really mercs, they are a militia. You'd just hire mercenaries a rather short time before your conquest, simply because they are so expensive. Also hard to do in secret. Where do they come from? Has there been any wars around the realm? They are also not really a good idea if you plan to HOLD hostile territory if we assume iron age tribal societies. Now if it's not mercs, you'd need at least some kind of martial tradition to train your people. Training citizens is even harder to do secretly. You either provide only basic training with easy to use weapons like spears/pikes and use them rather quickly and just accept that they'll be potentially less effective/flexible or put in more complex training and drain your treasury. Of course many societies also had non-noble members (in Feudal societies: freemen) who were semi-professional soldiers and used specialized weapons (slingers in antiquity, longbows in medieval England, mounted Tartars in the stepps for example) but that would also require world building.
TLDR; if Jenna can't do history, politics, economics or logistics she should either pick protagonists who aren't involved with any or just outright write contemporary romance.
3. Last but not least: THANK YOU for mentioning that torture is a remarkably ineffective way to get accurate information. People are really misinformed about that.
On point number 3 I've heard torture doesn't bring about reliable information. I've seen some exceptions but there's usually not much cutting off fingers, tearing up nails, or small cuts. Sometimes it could be providing a deal, mentioning intelligence that may convince a person being interrogated otherwise, or threaten friends, family, or lovers.
I've taken it that in my book, these group of people enjoy causing pain to others and some of the want to change their ways while others don't.
@@AndreVeaseyJr
Torture is only 'good' if sadism is the point. People will say literally anything under terrible pain. If you don't have any family to threaten, being really nice and sneaky is usually far more effective.
@@Alias_Anybody as peter grant says: "if you want a confession, bash'em with a phonebook, but if you want the truth, you have to put in the hours". Actually, while the rivers of london series is far from being free of issues (copaganda issues, notably, being half police procedural) it offers a refreshing alternative to the usual interrogation scenes by showing the cops attempting not to lead the witness/suspects.
It is true that torture doesn't provide reliable informations, but it is and was used in real life multiple times in history (especially during wars and persecutions).
So even if it doesn't work , do people really care about it, or are they aware of it? Since it happens so often even in our world, I wouldn't think it's something impossible or irrational in a fictional world.
It's like with children, we know that hurting them will not teach them anything, but there are people who abuse their children because they really think they will learn manners or respect though pain.
You could go the mother gothel route and still use the savior to frame Cavar - stage a failed assassination attempt by the neighboring kingdom and manipulate your frightened, groomed daughter into deciding to go to war. Thessan would rally far more around their savior than the token king. Plus, should Layla ever piece together how her father is using her, it’s much messier to try pulling out of her own war than her fathers so he can be sure she’s even less likely to stand up to him.
I feel like part of the reason Jenna says this is a wholesome romance is because Tobias isn’t an abusive a**hole, which is true, but Leila kind of is abusive one in this (she lies to Tobias, she’s gets upset with him every time he even glances at Cosima, and most of her actions are in her own self interest) but that’s just what I thought. I don’t read a lot of romance.
Anyway I’ve seen all your videos at least twice, and for good books To Sleep in a Sea of Stars by Christopher Paolini and would like to see your thoughts on Thursday Murder Club by Richard Osman.
Books for roasting Life and Death (Twilight gender reversal retelling) Stephane Meyer.
You are right. Leila really is the more abusive of the two. I chalked up her jealously to being young and completely inexperienced but it still wasn't great. I haven't read any of Paolini's work since the Eragon series so it would be pretty great to read some more of his work and compare. - Maria
@@unresolvedtextualtension I would love to see your review of any of Stephane Meyer's books
I think a good concept for the story would have been Tobias was hired to be an assassin but falls in love with the healer and then finds out she’s who he was hired to kill and then the conflicts develop from there
Also I hate the word cock 🙄
So that sounds like an AMAZING idea that could have added WAY more tension to this story!! Also, I apologize.... I said it SO MUCH in this video... - Maria
To be fair to Maria "cock" probably wouldn't have come up so much in the review had it not been in the books so much. And it's not the same as what you said, but look into the Nightangel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. One of the main character relationships in the series is between two assassins where their first interaction is the female assassin, who in my opinion is a buxom redhead done well, trying to trick and kill the protagonist. There is a lot of violence in the books and one of the most pivotal characters in the series is a prostitute, but it actually makes sense and has a point beyond violence and sex. Content warning though it doesn't pull its punches and gets really dark right out of the gate.
@@unresolvedtextualtension not your fault Maria it was in the book so much which is what I was referring to! You are the cutest!
I'm putting that concept in my story idea binder. That sound like it would be so much more fun
Yesss! That sounds awesome! And throw in some character depth and better challenges and what a great book that could have been. I'm crying for the lost potential here );
Having enjoyed both books I wish that they had just been edited together into one book with alternating perspectives.
I agree with this, especially because Moreci wants this to be adult fantasy, which is likely to have multiple POVs. Being in one character’s head is something I associate more with YA. Multiple POVs might have helped the pacing and definitely would have fixed the boring word for word rehashing of scenes between Tobias and Leila. The Savior’s Champion felt like an incomplete story or a prequel to me. Definitely should have been one book.
I’ve been wanting to share what my theory was when I first read Champion and Sister, and what I personally think would have fixed a lot of issues…
Make Cosima and Leila twin sisters. Cosima looks like the mother but has no (or limited) powers and was the first born twin, Leila looks like the father and has stronger powers. Cosima gets used as figurehead, Leila is hidden. (Under pretence of protecting the stronger sister). Nobody knows that there were twins aside from the midwife, which is why she would be brought to live in the palace.
Use Cosima for the tournament. Kill Cosima at the end to get all the power, keep Leila prisoner to protect the land while everyone believes that Brontes is a godlike man for being able to protect the land. (Actually include a religious system to make it make sense.)
Boom. Fixes part of Brontes’s plan. Actually ties in the sheer amount of references to twins.
I was really annoyed in Champion when this could have been the twist, but the twist was the most basic thing I could think of. There was so much potential in this series, and it’s frustrating so much of it is squandered.
Honestly, I'd love to see you guys rip apart my own work. A lot of this is very constructive
I agree with this statement lol I’d love to have my fantasy book savaged 🖤
same I'm like "damn i need friends like this"
Yes totally! And some of their ideas are so good, I could get some good tips from them 😄
I wholeheartedly agree
The absolute racism and colorism inherent in this idea is astounding to me, "this is the savior and we knew she was special at first sight because she's Super White which makes her the Most Beautiful and the Rightful Ruler" like hello ????
i appreciate the disclaimer in the beginning. I used to think i had some kind of obligation to watch critical videos of the things i like, but in the end, it just makes me not enjoy something that i enjoyed before. It's really not that deep in the end.
I remember reading her first book EVE: The Awakening about the time she was writing Saviour's Champion and thought, "I'll wait for a few reviews before I grab that one." Glad I did, and listening to these two videos made me realize I wasn't missing anything.
That being said, I do like Jenna's videos(or her older ones anyways, as the newer ones are mostly content that she's already done in the past). I wouldn't have stumbled across authortube and my current group of writer friends if it hadn't been for her video "Writer's are weird" video. So, hopefully she'll take the the criticism and improve her story telling in future books.
I noticed that too! Her newer videos aren’t exactly anything new and I liked her earlier ones more
"Black and Brown people can't sparkle. They're not white enough..."
-Jenna Moreci
im not gonna hold you, the fact that she made it so that Brontes, her literal father is a black man evil guy and she has not a spec of melanin in her cuz the savior "just cant be brown" (as though brown skin has less ability to MAGICALLY illuminate and sparkle) felt racially motivated in a way I don't like to think about too hard
jenna commissioned portraits for all the major characters, and brontes wasn't depicted as dark-skinned. he looked more olive-skinned.
While I definitely do respect Jenna's marketing and business mentality, attempting to follow some of her tips myself definitely did prove to somehow _worsen_ my own writing a little. While she does genuinely have some good tips regarding grammar, I very quickly noticed how base level her critiques/advices actually were regarding story, even in comparison to my OWN writing! Guess I'll just have to be careful with who I take advice from next, since following her influence led to me nearly ruining one of my books! (I am now rewriting an entire chapter of said book. Thank goodness I caught it in time that this simply wasn't working.)
I had the same experience, finally I stumbled onto channels like Brandon Sanderson, Ellen Brock, and Abbie Emmons. My writing started to improve drastically after that and I realized why when I heard her talk about "fridging." She mentions that it's terrible constantly but never explains why beyond it being tropey and sexist, so I hashed that question out with a beta reader and came to a satisfying conclusion that it's a taboo because it's usually executed lazily and they don't let the character leave any real mark on the character (especially when it's followed up with a love story that essentially undercuts the grieving character's motivation.) I never would have learned any of that listening to top ten lists.
@definitelyadarkangel9225 I totally fridge the main female character's male love interest near the beginning of the book and I've heard nothing but positive feedback about it. I can't stand when amateur writers like Moreci pretend to know that X trope is always bad when it completely hinges on execution.
I feel like this video was y'all rewriting this book to be what it COULD have been. Actually super interesting!
Truly truly I loved their discussion on the depth this story could’ve had.
Thanks! Maria mentioned to me afterward that what we did was basically script doctoring, and it's weirdly true. I don't think it's always imperative to offer alternatives when criticizing a work, but as writers me and Maria can't help ourselves, and I think giving examples of how a work could be better helps crystalize what the original issue was.
--Will
@@unresolvedtextualtension I love it! As a writer, it is actually super inspiring to me to listen to.
This really could have been a Rapunzel situation. Brontes could have declared Leila dead from a young age, framed someone for it to further his plans, and just kept Leila isolated in a tower where she could bless the realm so Thessen wouldn't die and brainwash her to believe that daddy is good and is protecting her.
Right!!
otherwise a good idea but how Brontes could explain Leila’s powers healing the land and keeping the wars and plagues away if she’s declared dead?
I hate hate hate her choice to capitalize Leila's pronouns.
Not a book rec, but I think it would be an interesting topic to cover: AuthorTubers who preach writing advice, but then collapse under the weight of their own bad writing; Jenna, Meg LaTorre and Kristen Martin (Alpha Drive fame) being some of the most prevalent examples. What do you think is the failure of the process between knowing, understanding and applying the advice these people seem to suffer? I don't *think* they come from a malicious place, but motive and outcome are NOT the same thing.
The disappointment from (especially new) writers that attach themselves to these people isn't just in the poor writing of the books they release, but the sense of being tricked or betrayed; that these AuthorTubers are hypocrites or manipulative and just wanted their fan's money. The problem I see (other than people feeling hurt, which is pretty damn legitimate) is that these bad books can compromise otherwise good advice if people take the bad writing and retroactively apply it as "well if this is an example of show don't tell, fuck that! That piece of advice is shit." it can impact a fledgling writer's craft poorly.
Anyhooo, great video! Love you two and wishing you a palate cleanser soon! 🥰
Pretty sure they talked about it in the in first Savior book
Alexa Donne is another one on that list. I see more bad reviews than good about her books. And she's traditionally published, not self.
Also most of the advice they give is super generic found online. This is a great example of 'Do as I say, not as I do.'
@@Shalaena I'll have to hard disagree on that point. Her prose is clean and her pacing is excellent, you can clearly see her implementing her own advice. A lot of those reviews are more about the tropes/genres she writes not really being the reviewer's thing, rather than the writing itself.
I'd say the biggest problem is that these books just aren't done. They need months of work that these writers just don't want to put in.
@@mariamaddalozzo4715 It's good that you seem to like her work, and everything is subjective. My objections are not with the tropes or her writing style. It's the characters. I have yet to pick up one of her books (it's on my to-do list), so I can't personally speak on the point, but from what I've heard, I can't see me liking the way she does her characters.
One thing that really grinds my gears as a transmasc person really is how widespread the "men/masculinity = bad" take has become.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a masculinist asshole and I do agree with the point that hating on men is not the issue of the century, but it is profoundly lame how people that frame themselves as politically enlightened only portray one kind of gross ass masculinity and of course it's bad.
It seems like we discuss all the different ways of being a woman in fiction, but "men are all the same" (except Tobias who's Not Like Other Guys).
There is no realistic attempt to portray different masculinities (not necessarily in a purely positive way, but at least in a way that feels complex), like queer masculinity, masculinity in pre-christian cultures, and so on.
"Men are all bastards" might be a really funny take for a year or two after you discover feminist literature, but after a few years it gets kinda boring.
That's a really good point. Some of the enmity from terfs is not just that they're transphobic and don't believe it's a real thing, but that they're specifically hostile to transwomen because they view men as innately dangerous.
And you're totally right that the full breadth of masculinity as a societal and gender identity tends to get crushed down into a very narrow sliver. A lot of that comes from garden variety patriarchy of course; there is one right way to be a man, and anything that veers from it is penalized. But I think the greater breadth is also unexplored and ignored by the social justice arena because masculinity is viewed as having enough attention payed to it by society already. Which is true, but only a specific sliver like I talked about above. And I think it's important to explore and validate alternate sides of masculinity; our answer as a progressive society can't be to just tear down traditional masculinity and then shrug at what a productive and responsible version of masculinity could look like.
--Will
Biological essentialism and a general lack of nuance are a path to the dark si... I mean being a TERF.
Regarding Jenna, she seems to have the bizarre idea that horny = evil unless you pass her purity test or something.
I really appreciate your content. When I watch you guys roast books that make the authors money, I'm confident in my own work.
One of the reasons I stopped watching her videos is because I just got this... vibe, I guess... of that sort of "feminism" from her. I don't even think it was any specific thing she said. I just got a feeling like "Ah, this woman feels like she thinks the one correct way to be a man is to be a supporting character in a woman's story".
And then I found out that the main character of her book exists to be an enlightened modern perspective who simps for the woman who can do no wrong.
I like Jenna Moreci. I follow her videos. I read "Saviors Champion." It was OK. I really disliked "The Savior's Sister." It includes two tropes I dislike, the second I HATE!
1. The Conan the Barbarian Trope - Robert E. Howard described it years ago. Conan was super strong, but not too bright. He would blunder into situations that were beyond him and he would either bash his way out, by brute force or be rescued by another character or “duex ex machina.” Superman & Supergirl both use the trope. Super powerful heroes that stupidly blunder into trouble and need rescued. Leila, "The Savior" is a similar character.
2. The Let's Not Tell Barry Trope - This is used extensively in the CW TV show, "The Flash." Something significant and upsetting happens. Joe West, Barry Allen’s adopted father, would say “Let’s not tell Barry about this.” The plot for the rest of the season would be about everybody hiding this significant fact from Barry Allen/The Flash. And about Barry/The Flash making bad & stupid decisions because he didn’t know what’s really going on. At the end of the season, someone would finally tell Barry/the Flash, what was really going on. All problems would be resolved. Emotional states would all be reset. The love between Barry & Iris would be saved! This trope is the whole basis of "The Savior's Champion" and "The Saviors' Sister." Leila doesn't want to tell Tobias she's actually "The Savior." By the end of the book, Tobias should logically hate Leila for lying to him about such an important matter. But True Love prevails!
I've since seen that this may be a common trope in romance novels. Not my preferred genre.
I did not even THINK of Leila as a Conan the Barbadian-trope character but that is weirdly spot in. It is rarely her wit or planning that gets her out of situations! The “Let’s not tell Barry” is also one of my least fav tropes. It can really wear in a reader or viewer. - Maria
IIRC Conan was actually smart in the early books. Not like a genius level smart, but not a smash-your-way-out-of-every-situation type of guy either.
Conan was pretty smart when written by Robert E Howard. I think what you are describing is bad writing rather than a specific trope.
I'm listening to the audiobook version of this novel and the narrator pronounces "worship" as "warship". Hilarity ensues. It's really quite wonderful, I keep imagining Lord Nelson with his 104 gun HMS Victory smashing into the palace. Leila, you've been warshipped for the last time.
Its impressive how this author does almost by the letter everything she herself says is bad writing in her adivice videos.
I feel like for books like this which focus mainly on romance, and therefore the interaction between the narrators of each book, you can’t really have companion books like this unless they spend a significant time away from each other and can give new information or perspective during that time. If you have a story where these characters are together a lot and therefore would have to reiterate the same scenes in both points of view, its better to write in omniscient 3rd person or with switching perspectives so you can get both characters emotions and motivations explained without having to write an entire other book, cause its really not necessary
This is a really, really good point, and I wished I could've thought of it so I could've mentioned structure one more time.
--Will
I really like the trope of a queen who gets her hands dirty for political gain, but it's so stupid how Moreci decided to write that without even researching how the politics would actually work out. Everyone's trying to kill the protagonist instead of just imprisoning her and abusing her power. I didn't finish the book, so I don't know if there's some nuance there about how someone else could get her powers by killing her. But she never discusses such an important point.
I'm all for women being sexually empowered and getting laid when they want to, but the sex scenes came off as filler to me in an already long book. Asher, for example, was irrelevant to the plot and didn't need several pages dedicated to how hot he was, etc etc. Moreci could have just summarized it in a paragraph and moved on.
Sadly, If someone kills her they do not get her powers. It remains a “why are they doing this?!” The whole way through. - Maria
Honestly videos like these are amazing to watch as a writer working to get published. I know some people think it's all about watching for the hash tag drama but seeing what's criticized in books with similar settings (in my case a fantasy centered on the monarchy of the world-and yes, I'm considering these books to be portraying a monarchy bc it's basically divine right rule) and taking notes on those exact criticisms is super useful, since I can apply those to my own writing where applicable. For example, I realize that I vastly nerfed the power of the aristocracy in my novel, so I either need to make clear that it isn't a traditional monarchy system, with reasons as to WHY it's like that in the world's history, or balance out the power accordingly for the sake of portraying a realistic monarchy. It's really nice to be able to listen to these and ask myself, "do I have this problem?", since it can be easy to miss that those problems can even exist on your own.
Some advice: A monarch has the least amount of power if he's basically a figurehead elected by high nobility (like in the HRE) or has to share his power with a parliament (constitutional monarchy). The most power aka an absolute monarchy can only be maintained if he has a strong standing military backing him which is controlled by loyalists and can crush rebellions and enemy nations alike. Most monarchs are in between, balancing the power between the different factions with potential power and influence (low nobility, high nobility, freemen). Centralized states usually lead to more powerful monarchs per default because it takes away adminstrative power from the high nobility.
The concept of divine right to rule in itself has actually little to do with the factual amount of power they have. A lot of European monarchs around 1920 (!) were still 100% convinced that they were chosen by God to rule (and can't be made responsible for any war crimes btw) after their administration literally collapsed (Austria, Germany, Russia). Bonus fact: The Habsburgs for example are to this day trying to get parts of the property that was confiscated in 1919 back because they feel entitled to it.
There is one thing I don't remember if it was explained in the book, maybe someone here remembers: Leila often has to cleanse and bless the land. But what happened when she was young? The former savior was killed, and it would have taken many years before Leila was able to bless (since she was a baby and a toddler). Was it not necessary to bless the land then, or did they do something else meanwhile?
I think, I'm not sure but I think her presence was enough until she was old enough to actually do it. The plague would take some time to return if she didn't do the blessing. But if she was dead it would return a lot faster. I'm not entirely sure if that was explained in the book or if I just filled in the blanks myself
@@leigh-anjohnson Thanks, I couldn't remember it. She also answered this on a recent Instagram story. Leila's presence is enough to keep it at bay, though her ritual is stronger.
Toward the end when you guys mentioned Cosima fighting for her life, I also think it made no sense how Cosima was the only one planning for a backup. More and more toward the end of either book it looked like Brontes might actually *win out* against the Savior. So, why is it completely unthought of that the servants, Cosima, etc. started planning for *if* he does. You can't exactly support the losing side the entire way through a war, and expect the winners to just let you walk away when it's over. Did Delphi just think Brontes would just...let her go? That would have made a much better breaking point in the book for Leila: not only does it look like her father might win, and Tobias might die, but also the people she had on her side start abandoning her as if he already *had* won.
The portrayal of the autistic character in these books is fucking insulting. We get infantilized enough as it is. We don't need more portrayals of the "child trapped in an adult body" trope that doesn't actually exist in reality. The reality being that neurotypicals often judge our intelligence based on how we speak (or don't speak) and don't give a shit about learning how we actually think.
Yeah, I really didn't love Pippa's portrayal in this book even more than the last. - Maria
I would like to ask something: why didn't Leila kill her would-be assassins? In the first book, she already killed one of the competitors by throwing them into a hole, so what doesn't she just kill the assassins and be done with everything? Even if she (for whatever reason) can't kill them directly, why doesn't she convince some of the other competitors to kill them or why doesn't she tamper with the competition to ensure that her assassins die? We already know that she has no compunctions about killing, so there's nothing stopping her.
true at least in my book the villain wants to unalive my MC but he has to do it indirectly bc otherwise he would get caught and unalived
I love the Saviors champion because I spent years watching Jenna’s videos, trying to become a better writer. Finally got the book, and realized I should have published my book so long ago because her writing made mine look like the gods wrote it lol. 😅 I still love her videos though.
It’s been said 100 times over in the comments but her writing is juvenile at best, and cringe worthy at worst. Definitely screams I’m a late 30s white woman and this is my first big series😭
I should have finished my book years ago I had no faith in myself but then I read some supposed adult fiction and going adult books... They make my books look amazing so I'm now back in the writing chair
I could listen to you two review the dang phone book. Your back and forth game is just so on point. Please, please keep doing what you two do. The YT world needs ya’ll.
Sooo... Jenna recently released a free "short story" through her newsletter.
It's called Great Love, and is a sort of prequel chapter from Delphi's perspective.
How about it, are you guys up for a bite-sized podcast? 😉
I agree about your idea of Leila being this abuse victim, but then how would Jenna write this badass (aka psycho) female archtype she's obsessed with?
Maria is hypnotizingly gorgeous and her voices are funny as hell. I could watch her tear horrible books apart all day.
Things I thought I’d get out of a RUclips channel: talking about books with my friends, maybe some ad revenue.
Things I did not think I’d get: compliments (about my looks or dumb voices).
Thank you for your kind wordssss. I will attempt not to get a big head! - Maria
I hope that when I get to the beta reader portion of my project that I have someone like the both of you that will really break the events down and rip me to shreds (in such a wonderful, wholesome way).
As a Pippa I would like to lodge a formal complaint that the only character in a book that I’ve heard of with my name is “ delayed”
I have watched Jenna's channel for years. She is quirky, interesting, and for the most part, puts out content I enjoy watching.
But... then we get to TSC & TSS.
After reading the reviews, I listened to both on Audible. I figured why not let the voice actors do all the heavy lifting. As a listener, the books were okay-ish. I gave her the benefit of doubt and whole butt load of suspension of disbelief.
Even so, I would argue, these books illustrate how excessive plotting can go horribly wrong. And it did. The flat characters clumsily progress between scenes in an unnatural journey that makes me think the author wrote down a number of cursory plot points before thinking about overall story progression. As a result, Jenna'a characters do only what is required of them to get from plot point 1, to plot point 2, and so on. Their journeys are stilted, wooden and follow no sensible path. Even fantasy, no matter how far-fetched, must be grounded in some form of reality. If not, the reader will stop believing and lose interest.
In addition, these stories are prime examples of how many AuthorTubers are great at self-promotion and marketing, but more often than not, are incapable or unwilling of following their own tips on writing.
As for your review. I agree 100%.
But, as a gluten for punishment, I will listen to final installment in the hope that this author can grow. I do see the potential in her writing. She does have the tools, now, she just needs to implement them.
The worst part is that she is vehemently against pantsing or going against the outline. Outlines change, characters change, scenes get cut, etc. It's hard to take advice from someone who doesn't understand this.
It almost feels like she loves playing the master pupeteer, without ever allowing her characters have their own personality. I think her plotting is good, but she should be more flexible about it and allow her characters think for themselves
gluten for punishment is very funny!
@@whosaidthat84This is spot-on. I'm definely a plotter--my current WIP is a 260k word monster, and my outline alone was 16k words--it was basically long enough to be a novella or a long short story.
But even with this incredibly long and detailed plot outline, I ended up cutting / adding / changing lots of scenes and deviating from the original outline (or at least altering my outline) once I saw that something didn't work as intended.
@@Dylan_Devine and it's great that you recognize what fits and what doesn't. I'm kind of in between plotter and pantser. I tend to have a very loose outline which offers more creative freedom, but too often I get stuck and have to return to the outline and figure things out. It took me a while to find my own style too, just as I'm sure it took you a while to find yours.
What I want to know is why any of the assassins would ever go along with his plan. What could Brontes give them that's so much better than becoming the new sovereign? Or, hell, for that matter... what in the flying fuck did Brontes gain by murdering the only link he had to the throne?
He had literally every reason to continue perpetrating the system because it put him in power and there's really nowhere else he could go but down. It'd actually make more sense if he was trying to ensure all the champions died because his daughter's marriage would mean a new sovereign and he'd be out of a job.
I love your podcast, especially when you're roasting books! XD You guys seem like awesome friends and I just really like listen to you.
watching this video is as close as I'm gonna get to reading this book. I keep watching videos like these because I was so mad at TSC I needed to find more people like me
I really appreciated watching this, because I had been interested in reading the Savior's Champion, and you both convinced me I would probably be better off without.
I'm not sure how you feel about historical fiction, but The Book Thief by Markus Zusack is one I find myself coming back to time and time again, and you may enjoy it if you haven't read it already! I also really enjoyed the Welcome To Night Vale novel that came out a few years ago based off the podcast.
I just watched LadyKnighttheBrave's video on The Book Thief and Jojo Rabbit and I've been dying to read it. I might try get Will and Katie to read it. I think the way it is narrated by Death would really appeal to both of them. - Maria
I just watched your review of The Savior's Champion yesterday and now this shows up in my feed! Love it ❤ I appreciate how you take things apart; it helps as a writer to learn what to do or what not to do :D
Honestly, there's so much weird... I don't know if I'd call it bigotry, exactly, but really uncomfortable content in the way characters are described?? So much weird sometimes gross double-standards and things that if gender-swapped would be VERY bad. I hate how literally every single male character besides Tobias - even the "good" ones that we're supposed to like, like Milo or Flynn - are so fucking sexist?? Kaleo specifically being a sexual predator and yet the one who gets all the funny one-liners and gets to be a villain VERY evidently favored by the author (and being the ONE bisexual character?? Fucking gross.) The way Pippa is portrayed is wildly insensitive. The rampant slut-shaming of Cosima (this happened in Moreci's other book "Eve" as well, where all the stereotypically feminine women are bitchy and catty and awful vain people) was really annoying - and then there's Delphi, who's portrayed as cool and powerful for sleeping around with women (which honestly feels like an idea stained with the oversexualization of lesbian women). As far as I can tell there's not even any REAL themes or messages or coherent ideas throughout either of these books. They're so flat and boring and just *annoying* to read.
These books don't feel like labors of love. They don't feel like there's any real passion put into them.
I'm sorry, doesn't 'Musume' literally mean 'daughter'? Like I'm not an expert but it's like going "Hi, my name is Daughter".
This was superbly interesting, because I'm not used to a review defending parts of an author's own plot and characters .... from the author's decisions. And the discussion supports Brandon Sanderson's proposition that consciously fulfilling (or at least skillfully rerouting) the promises made to the reader is extremely important.
It should have been a legit sequel where Leila and Tobias were expecting a kid so dad can plot to kill her (and Tobias) after the baby is born to have another Kill the Savior plot
An underappreciated author is Benjamin “Yahtzee” Croshaw, he started as a video games reviewer so I don’t think many people bothered to check him out who knew about his typical video format.
For a roast though, Cyborg Tinkerer gets my vote 😅
The descriptions for his books always seemed interesting (that I could see on his videos), how do you find them?
@@jhustmyles275
I recommend the audible version as he reads them himself. Though they are available in digital and print versions.
I think Differently Morpheus is my favourite and he has just released the sequel.
"It's about the apocalypse. With jam in it..."
I found your channel a couple weeks ago! Binged most of your videos already. You guys are great and I love listening to both the rants and the raves. Can’t wait to watch the channel grow! 😊
imagine how much more interesting this book would be if the villain instead of trying to just kill the savior was trying to figure out how to make her powers work without her, plus that is even a gray sort of motivation because isn't it kind of fucked up to have one woman be in charge of whether everyone dies or not when she's mortal and can die herself?
"isn't it kind of fucked up to have one woman be in charge of whether everyone dies or not when she's mortal and can die herself?"
It would be more fucked up if she was immortal. Being mortal herself, she would be able to have empathy for other mortals, which means she would be LESS likely to decide they should all die. An immortal being would probably the same way about killing mortals that we feel about crushing ants.
It's interesting to consider that the worst mass-murderer in history is God himself, who drowned the entire world and only allowed a single family to survive. (Although, being omniscient, He obviously knew that didn't solve anything. As good a man as Noah was, the problem of Sin still existed in him and his family.) God only started to act less like a tyrant when he had to live 30 years as a mortal.
Ahhhh, TSC was the first episode that I watched from you guys, glad I get to see its sequel as a subscriber
That's awesome! Thanks for sticking around!! - Maria
While I enjoyed TSS and Moreci's writing in general, I do agree that it was completely unnecessary. Moreci explained that she wrote TSS to avoid writing a 20-page infodump where Leila explained to Tobias how she knew so much. So instead of addressing this plot hole, she just wrote a whole new book. Also what Maria said at 9.10 was exactly what Moreci would say but without the irony.
I really love listening to your discussion. Every time you talk about politics, I am reminded how well the Captive Prince trilogy handled the politics. That series is very good. Anything by CS Pacat is excellent, so I recommend you read either her Captive Prince series or the YA book Dark Rise. Thank you!
I will admit I subbed because I love y’all reading bad stuff 💀
Same 😭
“Roasting the Saviors Champion for 90 minutes”
Me: Don’t mind iF I DO (pulls out lawn chair)
Great video guys! Fantastic, detailed breakdown of all the oddities and not good choices in this book. I must confess I have totally hate!read all Jenna Moreci's books and you both hit the nail on the head of why I keep going back for more frustration. There's a ton of potiencial in in these stories, so many interesting nooks and cranies of interesting relationship and power sturggles and fascinating worldbuilding to be done.
Oh man the potiencial of a few of the characters is so ripe for exploration, that I would write fan fiction for it if I felt like I could spare the writing time and still manage to get my original writing to publication. The little hints of what we get with Talos was so intriguing to me. I liked his relationship with Leila and what a source material for a conflicting backstory! I would totally read a book with him as a sympathetic main character, heck I want to write it! Cosima is totally a mine of untapped interesting complex relationship feelings with Leila and from what her backstory could be. I have definately heard other readers bemoan the lack of nuance with Cosima for what could have been.
The Savior's Sister is especially held back because of the repeatition and the lack of interesting political struggle/intrigue. I feel like Brontes suffered the most from his own plot. I just don't understand what he was thinking. He was going to be like Lion King's Scar when he took of the Pridelands oof! Again with other interesting potiencials... What if Brontes harbored a massive hatred for Thessan from his own time in the tournement and he carried it so long that he just wanted to destroy the country and their Savior Queen out of pure rage and vengence. It's not a strong, or that nuanced motivation, but I could make some sense and or maybe also see why that might happen over the plot-hole plan he has.
Also I'm glad you brought up the body shaming of Wembleton. I'm going to hope Jenna didn't mean to make people feel badly if they are also plus sized, but the language and Leila's attitute towards Wembleton is so demeaning it really struck me. It sucks to hear that sort of thing from anyone, but to hear it from a very convencially attractive person like Moreci makes me feel ickier. Also the sex shaming and particular dislike of busty red-heads is an on going pattern in her books, she needs to realize that bias, it's not helping her storytelling.
I think Moreci's advice and channel are good, but there's a difference between being able to see what works , and being able to execute it in one's own work. Whew, I don't really give advice, but I worry about my execution of all the story stuff I love all the time. ^_^;; Oh my gosh I have written and talked to about these books soooo much at this point. Anyway--! Thank-you so much for this great, thought provoking, and insightful video guys!
Hayley ^_^
You are both so eloquent and entertaining and I am SO GLAD that someone (x2) took the time to rip these books to shreds because I really took issue with them. This was awesome!
I'm so glad I'm not the only one that thought Romulus was a wasted opportunity to develop Leila. God forbid she have an interesting dynamic with a character that is a bit unsavory as opposed to being one of the "UwU special pretty good guys"
I cant imagine for the life of me what Romulus could have said to the sovereign to stop his assassination plan and wait until Layla is old enough to fight back. And why, why does her attempt even work? She threatened Pippa. So? All the more reason for Romulus to believe its best if Layla dies as that kid is apparently mental and a danger. How is this leverage on her part? She will be assassinated in a few days, no threat to Pippa whatsoever.
You really dug into the content! With clawssssss!
I LOVE JENNA. She is one of my power animals and inspires me to write and help others and be confident. So weird how I was very hostile starting this vid. But, Ended up appreciating your take.
I have not yet read the book, although I have bought it. I had an issue with the first pages that I found embarassing as it may be because I am not a native english speaker: I COULDNT for the life of me figure out WHO IS SPEAKING. Some places there were no dialogue tags and I didnt understand who was who and since the dialogue was vital, and would really shift story if assigned wrong person I was too confused to continue. Soooo, that was one of the reasons seeing if I was the problem or if other people had taken that point in their reviews . I didnt mind the spoilers here because I can now read it with context !
Was not expecting this episode but so grateful because I was curious but not ready to read this book lol.
Enjoying things that I know are objectively bad/have a lot to be desired is a lot of fun. Especially when I can join in on criticism, because it’s trash, but it’s my trash 🥰
I got to say I accidentally stumbled upon this channel and I don't know how but I really enjoyed how entertaining u guys are and i have not even read the book lol
The ideas and 'Mother Gothel' thing you guys talked about makes me want to ready a romance just like that. I NEED IT!
I'm making note of that for my own writing.
I had an idea for a twist on Frozen where Anna was manipulated into marrying Hans and Elsa was banished for being an ice witch. Hans needs a male heir to secure his place on the throne before he kills Anna but a daughter is born first and raised in a Mother Gothel/Rapunzel situation. The daughter lives her whole life trying to please her father until one day she finds out that he is going to kill her and her mother one her baby brother is born. So she has to find a way to save them while dealing with the disillusionment of all she knew. Maybe she goes looking for her banished aunt for help. Maybe she has magic too, like the first born in her mother's line have magic. It's a work in progress
@@breezy3392 Sounds absolutely amazing! Let me know when you are finished, I want to read it. :-) (I'm Ketutar at GoodReads)
When I read the first book, I was a little disappointed because I had been watching Jenna's yt channel for writing advice and expected something more than what it was. Then I read the second book and was even more disappointed because I was expecting a continuation of the story, but it was just a retelling of the first book through a different perspective. I might read her next book, but if that one turns out the same as the other two I'll drop the series. I still think her advice is good, I just wish she lived up to it.
I had to add the Savior's sister to my DNF pile...for the first time since I was a child. There were no surprises and my brain was like i have read this already
I agree. Sadly I was interested in the second book because I thought the first was alright and I liked where it ended, then I read the second and thought "This is the same bloody book". I wouldn't mind Leila's point of view if the story had progressed. :/
Honestly thought there were more subscribers here, but tbh it's nice to have a smaller yet active community. your points, ideas, and criticisms make sense. nice video :)
36:29 -- Where you guys are talking about repeating dialogue / showing the exact same scene from a different POV multiple times kinda made me feel better about my own writing ironically enough lol. So I've been working on a story (Fanfiction because what better way to practice writing and get feedback from the unbiased masses?) where I have three POV characters. Recently, I did a large chapter where one particular scene occurred and all three got their own POV regarding the scene. So when writing, I took the parts that matched up and literally copied and pasted them. But then I went back in and adjusted little things.
One of the characters (Keep in mind that it's a Fairy Tail/Phantom of the Opera fusion) Cobra has three names. The Phantom, Cobra, and Erik. So each POV character (Himself included) refers to him in a different way. Because I write in third person limited, I make sure to change the author short-hand language of the scene to give a different feel. For example, there's a sword fight. One character feels it's a life or death struggle. The other in the fight thinks of it as a simple duel. And the third knows absolutely nothing of fighting and is just watching the interaction in awe because she doesn't really believed anyone will be killed and the movements intrigue her. So I do my best to not only reflect that in their thoughts, but also how they perceive the fight.
I also did my best to set up the order of scenes from most severe (POV of the person who thinks he will die if he loses) to least severe (POV of the chick who doesn't understands swords, but loves music and dancing and is enraptured by their fluid movements) because in my mind, if I gave the readers the POV of the person who thinks of it as a simple duel first then that removes all tension from the fight when we get to the guy who thinks he's fighting for his life.
Readers may logically know that no one's actually going to be seriously harmed here, but the emotion is stronger if there's no prior guarantee about the ending of this fight (Cause you never know. I could wake up one day and choose violence for my characters. I've done it before ^_^ My readers all know that no one is truly safe in my stories).
This was a complete tangent, and I slightly forgot my original point, but I just felt the need to thank you for unintentionally making me feel better about what I've been writing XD
I’ve been watching your videos for a week, but I finally subscribed today lol
I can't criticize the books as I haven't read them, neither I'm trying to criticize Jenna, but seeing this type of videos about writer-tubers' books makes me wonder how credible and true might their content be. As an aspiring writer I try to learn from people like them, but each day I lose my trust even more, since I see that the things they throw hate to are the ones that appear in their stories...
I think I'm not the only one that feels bad or gets imposter syndrome whenever they see a point ( in one of these "writing tutorial videos") that matches the ones in our own stories. "Am i doing cliche stuff?" "Is this trope already bad?"... And I hate to think that aspiring writers just as me are deleting their hard work because people like Jenna and other RUclipsrs say that «that's super bad😡, never write like that again», when in fact they are no one to say such things.
It particularly affects me in Jenna's case because in her videos she appears to be this super experienced writer who has super clear what's good and what's bad, whatsoever... and kinda goes very harsh on people who "make what she considers mistakes"...
Overall, I can't tell if she knows about those mistakes but hasn't been able to detect them in her own writing, or if she has just tried to write a story using cliche or bland plot points without really having the capacity to develop it or tell it in a compelling way.
If it helps, a lot of writing advice is conditional/subjective. It became more obvious to me after watching TheDireGentleman's videos. Two people can give completely opposite advice and neither of them are necessarily wrong. Write what you want to write; it doesn't matter if it's perfect according to someone else's standards (especially if it's a first draft, it's a first draft for a reason).
Ex-Christian, here! It is customary to capitalize God’s pronouns, as in “Our God is good, He has a plan for us, and we must put our trust in Him.” I was really embarrassed when I read the author’s summary and saw all those capital “S’s”.
The idea of the letter from Cavar (or whatever the spelling is) beside Leila's body sounds like the fabric from the uniform of a soldier of Guilder planted on Buttercup's saddle in The Princess Bride.
This is reminding me of how stale and sterile published fiction has become, compared to fanfic writing. Yes, fanfic are badly written a lot of the time. But the difference between published fiction and fanfic is stark. I can’t see much passion in this book. It’s so bland and boring. Jenna has made her business by making dumb, sterile writing “advice” and it clearly shows how much it is worth because her own writing is lackluster. This is why I’ve stopped being in the original writing community and moved over to the fanfic community. The people there actually care about their craft and stories and you can tell there’s passion in their work. Whereas the published writing community is so hellbent on forcing their stories to arbitrary rules (like forcing outlining even when it doesn’t work for you) and putting their stories in a box.
I’ve seen more creativity in fanfic writing than these authortube community. Jenna was one of those people I looked up to for writing advices. She’s not the only person who pushed down rules into a creative form, but definitely one of the popular one. I just wish these authortubers who make these writing classes actually care about their craft. Because it doesn’t feel like they do. They force their stories in weird rules and standards and swear up and down that these rules are very important even though writing is meant to be a creative process and not a science project, aka it’s supposed to be creative.
All in all, I’m very frustrated and disappointed with these so called authortubers.
Wimbledon? There's a character named after a British tennis tournament in this book or did I miss something?
Pleeease do a review of Zenith, written by two RUclipsrs. Y’all are hilarious and your roasting is truly making my day, so entertaining. And you make so many great points! I just found y’all earlier today and have been loving the podcast format on Spotify.
Jenna morecci has a third book called Eve. It's her first, a YA science fiction, and it's nothing related to the saviors' champion duology.
AND ANOTHER THING. literally everything you said about jenna moreci treating the tournament as inherently objectifying and degrading being insane was SO REAL. for me specifically what's so grating about this perception is that like,,,,, you CREATED a setting and a society centered around the savior as a figure, have literally built a culture around this tournament, and YET you *intentionally* designed it to be totally flat and void of any possible nuance??? i mean that says so much about how the lack of depth in everything is baked into the fundamental structure of this series but also just,,,,, the complete *lack* of cultural influences on ANYTHING is so insanely upsetting to me.
i don't know if this makes sense, but like, this also ties into the weird man-hate-y-ness of these books. there is NO REASON that the competitors, coming from a cultural background where the savior is literally the Greatest Holy Thing In The World, should be so openly misogynistic to cosima when they are under the impression that she is the Savior. they are introduced to her as the Savior and they are CONSTANTLY making vile comments and treating her with absolutely no reverence. there is NO REASON brontes should be able to openly say things like "my bitch of a daughter" and talk about how terrible she is EVER, let alone IN FRONT OF OTHER NOBILITY??
the cultural importance of the savior is beat over our heads SO MUCH but we are literally *never* SHOWN that. in a setting where she is the most important thing ever, there is NO reason for tobias NOT to care about her or want to compete in the tournament - i think you elaborated on this in the Savior's Champion video, how especially in a setting that's (supposed to be) inspired by ancient greece, this should be SO important to him. NOT falling in love with the savior at first sight should be a crisis of faith for him. (and the fact that EVERY SINGLE COMPETITOR besides him is INSTANTLY taken by her beauty is so fucking stupid. every single man in this book is portrayed sooooo poorly or downright evilly JUST to make tobias look good by comparison.)
edit: to make up for yet ANOTHER outrageously long complaint comment, i will suggest a book/books i would love to hear reviewed: the Passenger series by Alexandra Bracken. i haven't read these books in years so i don't even remember if they're actually phenomenal or not but they DID do something so insane to my brain in middle school. worst time of my life that this series made infinitely better
I just found your channel from the two savors series videos and you two are genuinely so funny, instant sub.
This is a year old and you'll never read this, but:
Black Sun Rising
Sufficiently Advanced Magic
Sabriel
BSR is an absolute blast. If anyone ever sees this and decides to check it out, let me know what you thought.
Hearing about how simplistic and shallow the world view portrayed and keeping in mind the author... This really feels like a dip into a narcissist's point of view. You look at the symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the main character's perception of the world and attitude, it becomes a checklist real quick.