I think the Trojan war seems dilluted because Miller forgot Patroclus knows how to use a sword...the impression I got from the Iliad from Patroclus being described as gentle but also a skilled enough soldier to pass as Achilles is that his character is similar to Faramir or Aragorn where he doesn't love war for the glory but he's equally skilled on the battlefield and in the healing tent
I'm glad that you share my opinions on this book. I respect that it means a lot to some people but as a retelling/reimagining of the Illiad it literally added nothing to story. Even Achilles and Patrocles' relationship is so much more complicated and interesting in the og Illiad. Edit: also the way Miller completely sidelines or worse straight up villifies every female character is also super distasteful, especially considering that almost every one of them is a direct victim of Achilles/Patrocles in the Og
Thetis was incredible in the Illiad, but in this book.... let's just say it's bad Also is hinted in the myth that Patroclus had a friendship with Briseis
FYI for everyone, many of us read this shortly after its release and liked it, however as our literary pallets developed we reread it with a different lense and found similar issues with the story unattached to the "hype/ships/representation". Imagine if Achilles's name wasnt attached to the book, could this stand alone? No. It's just not strong enough of a story, characters are underdeveloped, background isn't vivid enough, etc. Which is valid to point out and I support their literary analysis on a piece of literary work.
Wills military fiction would be interesting but yess dark fairy smut That episode with will and katy was great, at least review a dark fairy smut of katy, and maria?!
53:30 - YES! This bugged me SO much. It starts to acknowledge that ancient Greece thought about sexuality differently...and then just doesn't. And there are multiple character reactions to Achilles and Patroclus that feels like modern homophobia transported into this setting...which accidentally suggests this reaction is natural and universal.
OH SHIT. I absolutely loved this book, and still do (I’m a 40 year old gay man, easily more pathetic than Patroclus, and alone my entire adult life :( )… but that’s the first criticism that resonated with me. You’re right, it does suck that homophobia is implied as innate by that.
i feel like the key to writing historical fiction(?) is literally forgetting everything you think you know about the time period and assuming that anything you write is up to scrutiny. like living in the time we do, it can be easy to forget the nature of the societal differences and the nuances of our modern life versus the target time period, if that makes sense. i'm currently writing historical fiction and this is one of the biggest challenges.
But it wasn't that way tho. Gay relationships between men of the same age was frowned upon and thought of as perverse. I'm sure you know of the older man teaching the younger man relationship that was the most common and encouraged at that time.
@@SaiGade-go9wp Yeah, people think that ancient Greece was a gay utopia, where everyone was accepting of homosexual relationships. Unfortunately, as always, things were much, much more complicated.
Okay but why were Menoetious and Thetis villianized in TSOA...Thetis would literally do anything for Achilles in the Iliad and pops up to comfort him whenever he is upset and I didn't get an indication she had anything against Patroclus....and Menoetius in the Iliad went with Patroclus to Phthia and if I remember correctly he instructed Patroclus to advise Achilles since he's older and more level headed so I really don't understand the whole "Faramir and Denethor" thing Madeline Miller did...
Patroclus's codependency and lack of agency, the intense body worship, lack of characterization of the protagonists beyond their romance, and how all the women are used as props for the men are just a few of the issues I had with this book. Very disappointing.
I absolutely believe that if Patroclus was "Patricia," "she" -- and Miller -- would absolutely be criticized for her lack of agency, because modern readers seem to be more sensitive to that kind of thing in female characters. Then again imo if this book wasn't about two Greek soft bois it would have never blown up in the first place.
will's energy is so goddamn funny oh my god and katie's niceness plus maria's hilarious voices and actual intelligent insights are absolutely amazing. y'all have such good chemistry. you just earned a new subscriber lmfao
Slash fanfic really is what it reads as. It's not so much an exploration of what mythology can touch in us but an exploration of wouldnt it be sweet if two greek statues were kinda gay
The greeks had a homosocial military system that paired an older man with a younger man to bring them into the social group. Often it involved sex, and both men would marry and have children later. I would argue that while it is homosocial, it is not "queer" since it was sanctioned by the military/government. Popular misunderstandings of *ancient greek culture irt sexuality is one of my biggest pet peeves
@@marocat4749Pederasty was more like a teacher having seen with his student to deepen their bond. Also the idea that being the bottom made you more womanly and hence wasn't two men having sex.
@@marocat4749 The Greeks didn't think of these homoerotic relationships as "queer", so not at all. In fact, these were forced "relationships" between grown ass adults with underaged boys, something we would call statutory rape today. It's really problematic to call this "queer-friendly" or queer at all. These weren't mature, real relationships, actual male-male love was still ostracised, and heteronormativity was heavily enforced.
I found this podcast because of William putting a literal one second mention of it in one of Amanda's (Swell Entertainment) videos. Best decision ever to let curiosity lead me here.
I think there are a lot of authors who just kinda suck at writing emotions. Every emotion for them only seems to have one physical trait tied to it. Sad is only shown by crying. Anger is only shown as yelling. Hate is shown by evil plotting. Attraction is shown by long explinations of how hot they are. Ect... And like none of those are wrong. But it is such a shallow way of writing. There is no nuance to it. It makes the characters feel so thin and lifeless.
All I want is a greek fantasy not based off the ancient greek myths. Like we had mythology that was created later on even in the 8th to 14th century with alternative stories. They are also worth telling
MY DAY JUST GOT SO MUCH BETTER! That intro was amazing. The lead up was so thoughtful and intellectual and then we get the quote. I'm getting my popcorn ready for this one.
will, i’m with you! absolutely hated this book, and when i made a youtube video that was literally titled “the song of achilles is bad actually (RANT review)” somehow people who loved the book didn’t catch the part in that title where i was going to be negative… the hate comments i got were out of this world. first and only video i’ve ever posted publicly because now i know how ruthless people get when you don’t enjoy their most favorite book 🙄
@@AK-rx8gp ahh i ended up making it private i made it when i was like 19 and it’s kind of cringey at this point. plus the comments were getting a little out of hand 😭
i think it says a lot that even with the scrappy video quality, their personalities and humor and thoughtful interactions with the text still shine through. proves you don't need a bunch of fancy equipment to produce gold-tier content.
I even dislike Achilles in the actual Iliad. He's an awful man. I would probably hope he'd be burned alive in this rendition. Hector is where it's at. Hector is the real champ MVP of the Iliad.
Keep your mouth shut you decadent barbarian. They were together since children the same as Alexander the Great and Heohaistion you decadent barbarians. They went thru everything together, they were philophers and real men bound by the institution of friendship which was sacred in Ancient Greece. Meaningful and very powerful friendship of souls. No disgusting lie propagated on purpose by a sick barbarian author who seeks personal and financial gain, can ruin their image. Keep believing lies so you feel good about your abnormality. Keep living in your fantasy proof-less world. It’s called brotherhood, lies propagated on purpose by the system and the abnormals in order to give a fake historic depth of homosexuality in order for us to accept it today. Sick parasites. Your abnormality is your own, no amount of lies can change the truth and it hurts you and it forever will. Also gays can’t fight, gays can’t be the best warriors of all time, only men can, illogical non thinking schizophrenic clowns. Keep the holy Greeks out of your disgusting barbaric mouths. Mentally ill parasites.
I definitely loved this book when I read it in college so this is interesting to listen to. I can imagine not liking it as much now, but I can’t imagine I would be this angry about it lol. I’ve definitely read worse, but maybe I haven’t read enough in that genre to compare it to anything else. But then, you guys loved Uprooted and I tried to read that twice (and I really wanted to like it, you were what made me want to try again!! I loved your video on it, because I love when you guys talk about books you love) and I just couldn’t do it. I had so much trouble seeing what anyone liked about that book, and it drove me a little crazy, and it made me angry too-so it’s fair, you guys can have this one 😂
Totally relate! I love TSOA, but I think UTT gives literary criticism in a respectful way and I can see where they’re coming from with a lot of their points. It’s just a matter of diverging tastes. I also tried picking up Spinning Silver earlier this year, since UTT hypes up Novik’s writing and I generally find myself agreeing with most of their scathing critiques, but I couldn’t get past the first third.
When I first read it I thought it was good, I enjoyed it and it was sad, I had a few complaints about some actions of Pat and Achilles didn’t make sense as well as the first 2/3 of the book I was kind of bored. But when I watched this video, I can see the flaws and the inconsistencies that were prevalent in the book that I haven’t noticed. I think this is tailored to a certain audience and some of the aspects of Iliad too was removed, this is more of a book you have to read without thinking too deeply about it, because if you do you’re like ‘’huh, that doesn’t make sense’’
I'd recommend looking up the story of Hyacinthus and Apollo but well....the ancient Greeks invented the burry your gays trope. Personally I did like Red, White, and Royal Blue by Casey Mcquiston
@@kenzgitz9884 lies and lies you decadent lying barbarian. Turret hurts a lot.Give proof you can't cause it a lie. It's called brotherhood. Homosexuality in ancient Greece was forbidden and they would kill the gays. Keep believing lies in order to feel good about your abnormality by sick individuals.
I read "Circe" before "Song of Achilles" and I was /shocked/ at how much worse SoA is. Possibly because Circe doesn't have a consistent love-interest and it is lots of mini-adventures strung together. My most generous interpretation of why Miller didn't develop the relationship (or the characters) is that they were "fated to be" but she doesn't actually manifest that; neither of them is ever feels that they're drawn to the other person against their better judgment.
as someone who knew Greek myths inside and out, having read any mythology book I could get my hands on since elementary school, I could not get through Song of Achilles. I didn't know how to describe it at the time, but I have since gotten the words to express my utter distaste for taking a modern view (particularly regarding sex, sexuality and gender, but any modern view can apply) and pushing it on history and myth. I also hated the way Patroclus and Achilles were written, and it made me drop the book at least twice before deciding it was just not worth the effort to finish the villainization of Thetis in particular also makes me angry because it's following a trend of making mothers terrible -- you see this often in adaptions/retellings of the Hades and Persephone myth and it's HORRIBLE
Right? Being Greek mythology geek since 7 years old backfires when it comes to retellings. When everyone was hyping up Percy Jackson, song of Achilles and Lore Olympus I ended up disappointed every time. And one good story I stumbled across I can't even discuss with anyone since it's really not that popular self-published trilogy in my native language (so no actual translation there)
As someone who knows greek myths and is also greek, let me remind you that the text of the iliad we have today is a modern take on a time period centuries before it was actually written down. Stories are meant to be retold again and again and change each time. An honest modern view is the right thing to do and definitely a thousand times better than trying to re-create some pseudo-ancient greek view out of misunderstandings, misinterpretations, ignorance, biases and straight up guessing. This book was bad, don't get me wrong, but not because of her "taking a modern view".
@@yllejord ''misunderstandings, misinterpretations, ignorance, biases and straight up guessing'' That would describe about 70% of archaeology lol. The problem with the book is not the ''modern view'' its that it has poorly written characters, and also pushes an agenda. While there are indications that ancient Greeks had a different perception of the male sexuality, the narrative that is trying to present ancient Greece as some kind of LGBT Disneyland is completely false and disingenuous. Not because it clashes with our perception of male sexuality, but because its a lie. It creates in the minds of people who strive to find acceptance, a fantasy. The truth is that if a modern gay person (of the fabulous variety)time traveled in ancient Greece, instead of acceptance he would meet shock, awe and violence.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I read this book to the end just to see whether there was something great and earth shattering at the end since everyone else seems to love it! I jostle wondered what I had missed. Thank you so much for putting my thoughts into words! 😂
Omg I’m so happy I found this podcast! I’m currently reading this book and it’s just…so… bad????? Like it’s an insult to fanfiction to call it a fanfic, cause it’s just plain BAD. But everyone keep saying this book is the best thing ever, and I kept thinking what’s wrong with me, why can’t I enjoy this??? And then I found you guys and I’m no longer lonely!!! THANK YOU! Also I’m definitely team Will and Maria, yes to everything you say.
Last summer while relaxing in the shade I saw two bumblebees bump into each other so hard one got knocked out of the air, landing on the patio where my dog promptly tried to eat it, and I think there's a metaphor in there.
Everyone keeps praising this book, but I just remember when I read it (2019? Maybe late 2018? Idk) and was like: huh, okay, moving on. I found it a little underwhelming and just… whatever. Not great. But people talk about it like it’s a masterpiece and I’m just confused. Did we all read the same book???
I was thinking about reading this book cause I heard how cool and revolutionary it is but now I think I’ll stick just to the version of Achilles and Patroclus from Hades, cause they are gay there and are not paper thin, soft boys but soft boys who can still kill a bitch if they have to
oh thank god you guys have a review of this book. i dnf'ed it after 48%. i saw it everywhere and gave it a good shot. i would have loved to love this book. I vote for will on this xD will is unhindged this review and im for it. im considering joing the patreon after hearing their consensus. sounds like the song of my people. this is my favorite favorite review! thank you for taking the time and sharing your thoughts! Maria "im not trying to take it from you..." Will " I AM!!!!!"
This book is beloved, and I think I only slightly like this better than Circe and I loved this one. Even so, guys, I'm here for you guys roasting this one. Come at us William, let it out. Edit: Hard agree with Katie, Odysseus is a dick but a charming one, he entertains us.
I recently read ‘The Silence of the Girls’ by Pat Barker, and whilst there are still issues with that book I felt more for Achilles and Patrochles in that book despite them being the villains (as the story is told from Brieses perspective
Patroclus was charming in that book and Barker keeps the fact that Patroclus was Achilles' charioteer in the story. And like Briseis, I felt so conflicted about liking him.
Finally ! Someone who hate this book as much as me. This is it. You gained a patreon. #Williamisrightandshouldsayit TLDR: When I wasn't bore with it, I was angry at how it treated it female characters and how Patroclus was done dirty and treated as a doormat and had no agency. And kept making heart eye at Achilles that had such a lack of personality I wondered what the hell Patroclus fell in love with. This is one of the rare case where I will never stop shouting that the original was better and more interesting. I took Latin class in school whenever I had the options. I'm a huge ancient roman culture nerd and have strong feeling™ about the Iliad. TLDR: Hector is the best, Achilles is an asshole, Patroclus deserved better, and Ulysses had it coming What I hated the most about this book (and Miller book in general) is that women are vilified or used as prop for men. They are either irrelevant or obstacle between the protagonists romance. Speaking about that my boy Patroclus has been done so dirty. In the original he is a competent and wise man, someone respected and mature. The Greek literally had debate about who was the mentor of the other. Because they had this thing were older men would have relationship with younger one and serve as mentor but also the two would be lover. Patroclus and Achilles were considered EQUAL in skill and how powerful they were. But in this book Patroclus have no agency and is treated as an incompetent doormat who spent 99% of the book worshipping the ground Achilles walk on. This is so much less interesting then what the original proposed for me. To add to it all, the book really gave me stronger masculine guy x more sensible fragile guy cliche that permeate BL and yaoi. And just stories with gay men were the intended public is straight women in general. Yes, I have beef with that genre to an extend for how fetishistic some are.
Patroclus went from a fierce warrior to a passive nurse. Nothing wrong with nurses, in a war you really need them, but that's VERY different from the myth
@@jessnalulila5552 As someone who works in nursing - nurses can be fierce. Ever met a combat nurse? Just in general, nurses can be no nonsense but still be exceptionally compassionate without being weak. In face I would say that a passive nurse is the last thing you actually want. A passive nurse is the one who will wring their hands while you lay dying instead of doing whatever they can for you. You don't want a passive nurse. And the concept of Patroclus being more of a healer to counter Achilles rather toxic personality flaws could have worked if Miller wanted something different. But that's not what we get at all.
I'm not somone who's been totally invested in Greek mythology but even I noticed when attempting to read this a few years back at how much of a doormat Patroclus was written as compared to his original self. And that's a bad sign if someone like me picks up on that little flaw. It also does a huge disservice to Achilles because it paints him as a much better character than he actually was. I would think it far more interesting if Patroclus still loved a monster while being accomplished in his own right. And as someone who writes slash from time to time - yeah, the weird almost toxic pairings that this book seems to lean towards trouble me also. Not a fan at all. Having known gay/bi men in the military during a time period where they could lose their careers if outted - none of them acted or were anything like what Patroclus is presented as. It's immensely frustrating that gay men can't simply be written as men. That's what they are - men. No one should be encouraged to be a doormat, man or woman or otherwise. That shouldn't be a trait to aspire to but for some reason it's seen as part of epic romances now ("I'll fix [troubled lead] by just loving them enough"). This is made all the worse by knowing that gay men can be targeted and more vulnerable to exploitation and violence given the social climate and the discouragement to ask for help. In general, it's a big turn off for me for a lot of the slash stories I see. But I'm also really into character driven stories - just having two people bang because they're attractive doesn't do a lot for me. Even worse if it's written for an audience that's being close to voyeuristic over the whole thing.
Thank you. You summed up 90% of my problem with yaoi/BL/shounen ai and why I stopped reading it long ago as I learned more about the LGBTQIA+ community. I think there is a hard conversation to have about why women love that genre. And how problematic it is that many in that community find an outlet for their sexuality (which there is nothing wrong about. Society do a good job at shaming women for it) but do so by walking over gay men and perpetuating harmful ideas and beliefs.
Fr because of so much power imbalance btw Achilles and patroclus.. I couldn't even imagine them being friends or companions let alone be lovers... They were supposed to be equal... Like other half of each other but patroclus was treated so badly
I just finished reading this after hearing so much gushing and it soon became a hate read for me😅 All the tropes and characterization reminded me of old BL/mlm romances where the supposed bottom is a passive doormat and the supposed top just somehow finds that attractive, add also the weird misogyny towards female characters but ig in this it's supposed to be ✨️realistic✨️ to the time period. I bet there's better fanfics made of these two even before this book came out 😂
I would not mind listening to Will rant review this book. I haven't read it, but I read Circe and hated it for the passiveness of the main character. Hearing thet Songs of Achilles has the same issue, makes me think this is a writing style of the author, for which I wouldnt be interested in reading any in the future.
Me again lol. I wish that instead of being like "here is what happened with their childhood, he's 12 but is so 😈😈 for Achilles" she wrote about those 10 years where there arent really many myths written and used the stories from childhood as backstory
Achilles should have gone to Troy not because of glory but because Patroclus had to go because he agreed when he went to see Helen at the beginning. And Achilles doesn't want to go, wants to grow old with Patroclus but knows that this is his only chance
@@krystinaythat would have made SO MUCH more sense. Also to use his ghost talking to Thetis as a framing device, and flashing back between their childhoods and the war, would have helped with that slow act 1&2 issue (which imo is part of what makes it feel like serialized fanfic). I always assumed that noticing and recommending these kinds of things was what editors did 🤔
@missallisnow I totally agree. I liked the book when I read it last year but I definitely had all the issues with it that they talked about but I love the myth so much I overlooked it. But I remember at the end I was like.... why is he retelling her everything when he could have just started it this way. But I really did read it like I read fanfic and that's why I liked it lol
@@krystinay I have this mental image of miller sitting in some Greek Mythology 101 college class and coming up with this idea and never reevaluating how well it actually worked as a concept. And I get why people are/were into it... it's the same reason we (well, I at least) still read fanfic where the characters are horribly out of character. We're there for the premise and we're willing to overlook a lot.
@missallisnow they said she was a classics teacher in the video. Some dudebro student was probably like "bro, they sound gay AF" and Miller was like................ ✨️✨️✨️✨️😨🫨🫢😮🤯✨️✨️✨️✨️
The Iliad as codified by Homer is a historic fanfiction. And while I personally did enjoy SoA, this book is an OOC historic fanfiction of a historic fanfiction. If you have any love for the classics or any love for history, this book will make you rage the way Will raged.
I finally finished this video after watching it in chunks over the past two days and wow. That was a very good analysis. My experience reading the first 95% of Song of Achilles was made up of indifference, disappointment, and anger (specifically, towards the characters: the decisions they made make no sense!). Watching this video helped me realize that a lot of it was due to the characterization issues in this book (Achilles acting in ways that didn't match his characterization earlier in the book, Patroclus's passiveness, etc). Having very little familiarity beyond the basic plot points of the Iliad, reading this really did feel like reading a fanfic from a fandom you don't know, and that fanfic featuring a toxic relationship that people wouldn't be into unless they had prior context from the fandom itself (saying this as someone into very specific toxic fandom pairings myself lol: if I dumped that on someone with no context, they'd be horrified). It wasn't until I got to the end of the book where Patroclus and Thetis talk that I truly felt that I could see the book's potential for what it was. Like, that's very late. The last five percent of the book. If the book had done its job right, I would have been invested much, much earlier than that, but still, that was the one scene that raised my one-star rating of the book to two stars. Maria's idea of recontextualizing the book as Patroclus telling his story to Thetis blew my mind. That would have made the book so much more enjoyable! It would center the book around not only Achilles and Patroclus, but also Patroclus and Thetis. If we had started out with a scene in the beginning like that, I would have paid special attention to Patroclus and Thetis, and the ending scene would be even more impactful. Overall, my new assessment of this book is that it was written for a very specific audience, one that already is familiar with the Iliad and Achilles and Patroclus together as a concept that I definitely was not a part of.
I loved this book but its probably because right before I read it I did a whole 5 hour break down of retelling the background of the Iliad and the Iliad for my (sarcastic feminist history) podcast and cried when I read that and it was still so fresh. The gay side of it was also from him wanting their ashes mixed together which was just like not done
Also on the Odysseus hate wagon. I hate Odysseus from Troy from the moment he yeeted baby Astyanax off the wall of Troy and then murdered Hecuba (his spoil of war that he was going to sexually abuse) for daring to speak out against him after he called for the murder and enslavement of all her children and grandchildren, and then literally wreaked havoc on the entire world on his way back. (According to later myths)
I am so glad you guys did this book! I usually wait to watch these videos until there's a nice window of time where I can do something brainless and watch your video at the same time, but when I saw that this video came out, I made sure to immediately block out two hours of my day so I can clean my house and watch this at the same time. I read this book a little more than a year ago since I saw all the hype for it, all the beautiful Instagram fanart and decided I must read it. I tried very hard to like this book, I really did. But I was just extremely disappointed and did not like this book at all. And I'm saying this as someone who literally reads slash fanfiction. I almost dnf-ed this book several points in time because I could not stand it. The way women were treated in this book-sure, maybe it's historically accurate, but it was just disgusting to read, with the least misogynistic man in the book being Patroclus. I'm so glad to see this video (and Will) and know that my disappointment with this book is shared by many! Thank you, Will, for being honest with your rage. I felt every bit of it looking back on it. At the time, I had no idea why I hated this book so much, but you guys articulated several of the reasons why so well that now I am beginning to understand my feelings towards this book. Thank you!
Aaah I personally liked the book back when I read it in 2018, but 1. I remember nothing about it, 2. I read it at a time where I was still cultivating my taste in books as an adult and was much less critical than I am now, and 3. After reading Circe and hating it with devotion I don't expect for this one to live up to my own standards lmao And your criticism is so good as always! I understand how William would come to hate it so intensely if he has always held the Illiad so close to heart, it's written as fanfic of something that plagues the communal subconscious rather than an actual study of the Illiad and how certain circumstances could be changed.
I think Circe is much worse actually, I'm curious what yall would think about it. I think Miller's not like other girls and manic pixie literary tendencies show much more in that book and it feels very condescending to every female that isnt Circe. Also, she very much an Odysseus fangirl lol
Agreed. I got really upset when it came to how Athena was handled, especially how Telemachus…who literally owes everything he has to Athena, was just like “nah, bye, you’re awful” to her. What he did to Athena in that book, was no different than what Theseus did to Ariadne. Yet, a lot of people find that whole ordeal to be “romantic” because of how it was written/ told from Circe’s POV 🙄
@@missallisnow maybe it’s not 😆 🤷♀️ I guess I think of a retelling as a subversion, and I don’t really think that’s what song of achilles aimed for. I’ll be okay, I’m just nursing my hurt feelings!
I tried to read this the other year and I couldn’t get through it I was SO BORED. This book was only as popular as it is because it came out when there wasn’t a lot of queer content so people latched on to it. Now we have way better queer books and this book wouldn’t be beloved if it was written now 🤷
No, according to Plato and Aeschylus (the two who wrote them as gay) had it as a pederastic relationship… A pederastic relationship being where one was an adult and one was an adolescence. I would also like to point out that while Plato did start out okay with this, Plato also changed his mind later in life where he says male love (especially in pederasty) is immoral.
Before starting the video I'll say that I read this book once about three years ago and... didn't quite get the hype. I liked it, I think I gave it 3 out of 5 stars, but I certainly didn't love it the way I'd seen others love and praise it. What I remember the best is not really understanding /why/ Patroclus and Achilles loved each other so much and were so devoted. Achilles felt aloof I suppose, and kinda underdeveloped, which didn't help matters. I also remember feeling like there was something weak about Patroclus, and I'm not sure how else to phrase that. Okay, on to the video!
I love how you guys critique. and break down the glaring flaws in a book! By chance, does any one of you do developmental editing or proof-reading for writers, as a paid side gig? Lol
Yes! Will and I both do - if you’re interested in Wills feedback, reply to this and let him know. I think he does it through our Patreon. If you are interested in mine, my email is betareadingbykatie@gmail.com
@@unresolvedtextualtension Omg, perfect!! I’m an agented writer and have been STRUGGLING to find proof-readers who can actually pull the book apart and find it’s hidden flaws. I’ll be emailing you guys soon! 🙏🏾☺️ Just curious, are there any genres you two specifically do not have any interest in reading? The gist of my novel is Romeo and Juliet, but set in Ancient Egypt. Lol.
I read this book a couple years ago and I gave it 5 stars. That being said, I understand how some people might not enjoy it or find it underwhelming. For context, I’m a classics major and have been in love with all things Ancient Greece and Rome since I was a child. The Iliad is my favorite piece of ancient literature/poetry. Will is correct in saying that this book totally missed the mark in retelling the story of the Iliad for the modern audience. To me this book reads like a literary Patroclus/Achilles fanfiction version of the Iliad. I enjoyed that vibe very much while also acknowledging the gross misrepresentation of the characters of Patroclus and Achilles (they were both way too soft and passive) as well as the avoidance of addressing the complexities of Ancient Greek sexuality.
As an archaeologist... I loathe this book. But what annoys me more is actually its fandom ^^" I give probs to Miller that she stayed true to Achilles character flaws but all this book did was making this mf a "queer icon", to the point people have started saying "Achillean" as an opposite pair to "Sapphic" (a REAL HISTORICAL woman!!!) and I hate it so much! Sorry, that needed to be said XD
watching this podcast is my favorite way to skim off my tbr and then add really good books to my tbr (ty for pmo to hyperion, kushiels dart and tamysin muir books) edit: ilove that will baited maria with the veterans thing
Finally, someone else who doesn't like SOA. While i didn't hate the book, I despised the fact that Miller rushed the best scene in the Iliad: The meeting of Priam and Achilles. Her version had no power, no depth, it was so rushed.
if you're interested in a really good story about the Trojan War, i recommend the 'Silence of the Girls' and 'Women of Troy' novels by Pat Barker, it's a duology that focuses on the stories of the women in the Trojan War who are left out of history, especially on Briseis and Cassandra, and it's really beautifully written and compelling. it's definitely probably in the literary historical fiction vein Miller was going for, but Barker's prose is good without her characters being flakey or emo-cringe, and if you consider that these historical women didn't necessarily have a lot of agency, the characters still do things, and its portrayal of female friendship and shared trauma is sensitively handled while being accepted as a norm/not as horrific as we'd treat it today. I think they're books you guys would enjoy reading, and still have some really good critical insights to
Loved this. Can attest I did not like Circe. I went into it thinking it would be a feminist retelling but Circe spent the entirety of the narrative whining about dudes lol. I have a feeling Will might not like it either 😂
I feel like I was in the Maria boat where i do enjoy the interpretation of but I was bored. I liked it but in the way i liked Hani and Ishu's guide to fake dating it's not the best but it scratched an itch. I feel like i might not like it on rereading especially since I'm getting into epics (I read paradise lost I need to finish the illiad).
Ok look. I didn’t read the Iliad. I read the Odyssey in high school but it was one of the few books I didn’t enjoy. But I liked the song of Achilles. At least I’m pretty sure I liked it. It made me cry a whole bunch.
I write in first person. and its a challenge to express some feelings without using "I feel" "I felt" statements throughout. Everything I hear and I've read I feel has less impact than showing.
There’s a trend that I’m seeing where people assume that men with close, supportive friendships with other men are somehow homosexual. I think that assumption is toxic, having close friendships with other men is an emotionally healthy thing.
I dont thonk its new, and thereis also the trend that gay representation wasnot allowed to be explicit for the most part,or rather,in overtones. Also conflating romance and friendship, not that both cant be the case. Seriously the pretending that like archilles and partoclus and other even real lifepeople werent gay or bi. Friendships rarely go that far,ok they do but there are romance tropes that are used as shortcut to friendships that, Makes the romanced look really random and wrong. It depends. But if you do more building up the romance with a friend, not always, but you can just write a romance too if you overdo it without care not great
it is concerning to me, too. i'm all for gay representation (am gay myself), but i don't like that men can't seem to have close relationships without being "shipped" or assumed to be in love. it just perpetuates harmful stereotypes and gender roles.
I did not like this book. But the greek publics reaction to this book was HILARIOUS to me. The PURE homophobia was wild. ...on the other hand this book sucked
It was super interesting listening to this because it seems like the gripes I had with Circe's world-building would carry over to The Song of Achilles as well. (For context: Circe's world-building felt very anachronistic to me, as someone who's a bit of a mythology and ancient religions nerd). I was also taken in by the ridiculous hype over Miller's fiction and was left very disappointed. I didn't hate Circe, but just didn't understand what all the fuss was about, given its flaws - also, it is absolutely not, in any way shape or form, a 'feminist retelling of the Odyssey' (I really freaking hate that kind of marketing bait). Methinks you would not particularly enjoy it, given your reactions to The Song of Achilles.
Ok so I've been avoiding this video like the plague since I enjoyed the book. BUT now I'm realizing that one of the main reasons I liked it was cus it was about gay Greek myth and the characters and world was kinda a nothing burger. Like its the empty calories version of Greek myth. Also during the time, the archetypical hero was assumed to be bisexual. Like they would have wife's and sleep with women but also would be so down bad for any remotely pretty boy they met. So the almost modern levels of homophobia is strange. Also also Apollo is literally known for chasing after every nimph and sexy guy he sees to the point that like 4 people have jumped off cliffs to get away from him and countless people have turned into plants for the same reason. It wouldn't make sense for people to be homophobic unless your the bottom since that's kinda how they saw it. It's ok to sleep with men as long as "you do the fucking and don't get fucked" so if that would have been interesting if he was worried about how people would treat him from that angle and not the "oh no, people will be against us being together, at all". 😅 It almost feels like the author assumes you already have a bases of knowledge about the time and mythology she's writing about as so you understand the context of the book. But if you have that context then the way she's presenting a sanitized version of the myth while also doing a ton of PR work for both sad soft gay boys stops making sense. It's frustrating cus it could have been so good with a bit more work 😢
I think the Trojan war seems dilluted because Miller forgot Patroclus knows how to use a sword...the impression I got from the Iliad from Patroclus being described as gentle but also a skilled enough soldier to pass as Achilles is that his character is similar to Faramir or Aragorn where he doesn't love war for the glory but he's equally skilled on the battlefield and in the healing tent
I love the variety of reactions to the line Will read.
Maria: It's horrible. :(
Will: It's horrible. >:(
Katie: It's horrible! :D
keep believing lies freak, truth hurts.
truth hurts freaks.
I'm glad that you share my opinions on this book. I respect that it means a lot to some people but as a retelling/reimagining of the Illiad it literally added nothing to story. Even Achilles and Patrocles' relationship is so much more complicated and interesting in the og Illiad.
Edit: also the way Miller completely sidelines or worse straight up villifies every female character is also super distasteful, especially considering that almost every one of them is a direct victim of Achilles/Patrocles in the Og
Thetis was incredible in the Illiad, but in this book.... let's just say it's bad
Also is hinted in the myth that Patroclus had a friendship with Briseis
FYI for everyone, many of us read this shortly after its release and liked it, however as our literary pallets developed we reread it with a different lense and found similar issues with the story unattached to the "hype/ships/representation". Imagine if Achilles's name wasnt attached to the book, could this stand alone? No. It's just not strong enough of a story, characters are underdeveloped, background isn't vivid enough, etc. Which is valid to point out and I support their literary analysis on a piece of literary work.
Ya'all keep hyping up Katies writing while Katie refuses to give us a short story. Give the people Katie's atmospheric goth fairy smut.
Wills military fiction would be interesting but yess dark fairy smut
That episode with will and katy was great, at least review a dark fairy smut of katy, and maria?!
Jesus, ignore William. He's just being nice. My writing is stagnant and uninteresting. If I ever go beyond that, you guys will be the first to know~KT
truth hurts freaks
53:30 - YES! This bugged me SO much. It starts to acknowledge that ancient Greece thought about sexuality differently...and then just doesn't. And there are multiple character reactions to Achilles and Patroclus that feels like modern homophobia transported into this setting...which accidentally suggests this reaction is natural and universal.
OH SHIT. I absolutely loved this book, and still do (I’m a 40 year old gay man, easily more pathetic than Patroclus, and alone my entire adult life :( )… but that’s the first criticism that resonated with me. You’re right, it does suck that homophobia is implied as innate by that.
i feel like the key to writing historical fiction(?) is literally forgetting everything you think you know about the time period and assuming that anything you write is up to scrutiny. like living in the time we do, it can be easy to forget the nature of the societal differences and the nuances of our modern life versus the target time period, if that makes sense. i'm currently writing historical fiction and this is one of the biggest challenges.
If by “thought about sexuality differently” you mean permitting and encouraging pedophilia, then yeah.
But it wasn't that way tho. Gay relationships between men of the same age was frowned upon and thought of as perverse. I'm sure you know of the older man teaching the younger man relationship that was the most common and encouraged at that time.
@@SaiGade-go9wp Yeah, people think that ancient Greece was a gay utopia, where everyone was accepting of homosexual relationships. Unfortunately, as always, things were much, much more complicated.
Okay but why were Menoetious and Thetis villianized in TSOA...Thetis would literally do anything for Achilles in the Iliad and pops up to comfort him whenever he is upset and I didn't get an indication she had anything against Patroclus....and Menoetius in the Iliad went with Patroclus to Phthia and if I remember correctly he instructed Patroclus to advise Achilles since he's older and more level headed so I really don't understand the whole "Faramir and Denethor" thing Madeline Miller did...
Patroclus's codependency and lack of agency, the intense body worship, lack of characterization of the protagonists beyond their romance, and how all the women are used as props for the men are just a few of the issues I had with this book. Very disappointing.
I absolutely believe that if Patroclus was "Patricia," "she" -- and Miller -- would absolutely be criticized for her lack of agency, because modern readers seem to be more sensitive to that kind of thing in female characters. Then again imo if this book wasn't about two Greek soft bois it would have never blown up in the first place.
But you can have sad soft bois with agency.
@@marocat4749 not in this book lol
@@marocat4749 See, that's what I wanted. And more wrath. And competent Patroclus.
@@missallisnowtrue
will's energy is so goddamn funny oh my god and katie's niceness plus maria's hilarious voices and actual intelligent insights are absolutely amazing. y'all have such good chemistry. you just earned a new subscriber lmfao
Total agree. They’re the perfect trio.
Slash fanfic really is what it reads as. It's not so much an exploration of what mythology can touch in us but an exploration of wouldnt it be sweet if two greek statues were kinda gay
It's The Iliad + High School Musical 😂
They could just stare at each other forever. How romantic?
46:29 the image of achilles absolutely shredding a lyre is fucking hilarious to me for some reason
The greeks had a homosocial military system that paired an older man with a younger man to bring them into the social group. Often it involved sex, and both men would marry and have children later. I would argue that while it is homosocial, it is not "queer" since it was sanctioned by the military/government. Popular misunderstandings of *ancient greek culture irt sexuality is one of my biggest pet peeves
We know this system as pederasty. The men were known as the erastes (older mentor figure) and eromenos (younger passive figure)
I just started the video and had to infodump about one of my interests lol i'm excited to hear the shade
Still queer thou. Or queerfriendly be it in probably judgey context. Still queerfriendly there.
@@marocat4749Pederasty was more like a teacher having seen with his student to deepen their bond.
Also the idea that being the bottom made you more womanly and hence wasn't two men having sex.
@@marocat4749 The Greeks didn't think of these homoerotic relationships as "queer", so not at all. In fact, these were forced "relationships" between grown ass adults with underaged boys, something we would call statutory rape today. It's really problematic to call this "queer-friendly" or queer at all. These weren't mature, real relationships, actual male-male love was still ostracised, and heteronormativity was heavily enforced.
I found this podcast because of William putting a literal one second mention of it in one of Amanda's (Swell Entertainment) videos. Best decision ever to let curiosity lead me here.
What video was that?
@MistbornTaylor I think it was the cult of booktok, timestamp is 5:09. Not sure if there's another video where he plugged it
I think there are a lot of authors who just kinda suck at writing emotions. Every emotion for them only seems to have one physical trait tied to it. Sad is only shown by crying. Anger is only shown as yelling. Hate is shown by evil plotting. Attraction is shown by long explinations of how hot they are. Ect...
And like none of those are wrong. But it is such a shallow way of writing. There is no nuance to it. It makes the characters feel so thin and lifeless.
This podcast is the best thing the youtube algorithm recommended to me this year. 🧡
Same
Diddo 🙌
i found them through roasts of jenna moreci's books and i have never looked back since lmao
All I want is a greek fantasy not based off the ancient greek myths. Like we had mythology that was created later on even in the 8th to 14th century with alternative stories. They are also worth telling
Working our way up to the ultimate combination of all 3 ruggedly handsome hosts in one space
I'm not sure the Internet can take it.
MY DAY JUST GOT SO MUCH BETTER! That intro was amazing. The lead up was so thoughtful and intellectual and then we get the quote. I'm getting my popcorn ready for this one.
will, i’m with you! absolutely hated this book, and when i made a youtube video that was literally titled “the song of achilles is bad actually (RANT review)” somehow people who loved the book didn’t catch the part in that title where i was going to be negative… the hate comments i got were out of this world. first and only video i’ve ever posted publicly because now i know how ruthless people get when you don’t enjoy their most favorite book 🙄
my absolute biggest issue with this book was how the women in it were treated, interested to see if you go into that in this review.
I love rant reviews would love to watch yours but it's not on your channel?
@@AK-rx8gp ahh i ended up making it private i made it when i was like 19 and it’s kind of cringey at this point. plus the comments were getting a little out of hand 😭
Weird comment: please never upgrade from the scrappy video quality, it's giving nostalgia, it's giving retro vibes :)
i think it says a lot that even with the scrappy video quality, their personalities and humor and thoughtful interactions with the text still shine through. proves you don't need a bunch of fancy equipment to produce gold-tier content.
Lmaoooo y’all with your backs against each other was giving me team rocket 😅😂
I even dislike Achilles in the actual Iliad. He's an awful man. I would probably hope he'd be burned alive in this rendition. Hector is where it's at. Hector is the real champ MVP of the Iliad.
And his character was completely butchered in SoA imo :( He's my favourite too!
Yes I love Hector!! Why romanticize Achilles 🤮
Keep your mouth shut you decadent barbarian. They were together since children the same as Alexander the Great and Heohaistion you decadent barbarians. They went thru everything together, they were philophers and real men bound by the institution of friendship which was sacred in Ancient Greece. Meaningful and very powerful friendship of souls. No disgusting lie propagated on purpose by a sick barbarian author who seeks personal and financial gain, can ruin their image. Keep believing lies so you feel good about your abnormality. Keep living in your fantasy proof-less world. It’s called brotherhood, lies propagated on purpose by the system and the abnormals in order to give a fake historic depth of homosexuality in order for us to accept it today. Sick parasites. Your abnormality is your own, no amount of lies can change the truth and it hurts you and it forever will. Also gays can’t fight, gays can’t be the best warriors of all time, only men can, illogical non thinking schizophrenic clowns. Keep the holy Greeks out of your disgusting barbaric mouths. Mentally ill parasites.
Keep the great warrior out of your sick ignorant and barbaric mouth you coward.
Hector got handed the shortest of straws 😂 poor lad had to deal with all of his brothers nonsense
I definitely loved this book when I read it in college so this is interesting to listen to. I can imagine not liking it as much now, but I can’t imagine I would be this angry about it lol. I’ve definitely read worse, but maybe I haven’t read enough in that genre to compare it to anything else. But then, you guys loved Uprooted and I tried to read that twice (and I really wanted to like it, you were what made me want to try again!! I loved your video on it, because I love when you guys talk about books you love) and I just couldn’t do it. I had so much trouble seeing what anyone liked about that book, and it drove me a little crazy, and it made me angry too-so it’s fair, you guys can have this one 😂
Totally relate! I love TSOA, but I think UTT gives literary criticism in a respectful way and I can see where they’re coming from with a lot of their points. It’s just a matter of diverging tastes. I also tried picking up Spinning Silver earlier this year, since UTT hypes up Novik’s writing and I generally find myself agreeing with most of their scathing critiques, but I couldn’t get past the first third.
When I first read it I thought it was good, I enjoyed it and it was sad, I had a few complaints about some actions of Pat and Achilles didn’t make sense as well as the first 2/3 of the book I was kind of bored. But when I watched this video, I can see the flaws and the inconsistencies that were prevalent in the book that I haven’t noticed. I think this is tailored to a certain audience and some of the aspects of Iliad too was removed, this is more of a book you have to read without thinking too deeply about it, because if you do you’re like ‘’huh, that doesn’t make sense’’
At 29, I’m finally coming out. Was so excited to read this book as part of the LGBTQ-
Thank you for giving my my first Big Gay Disappointment
from a 19 year old gay, congrats! also lmfao
Sick freak
I'd recommend looking up the story of Hyacinthus and Apollo but well....the ancient Greeks invented the burry your gays trope. Personally I did like Red, White, and Royal Blue by Casey Mcquiston
@@kenzgitz9884 lies and lies you decadent lying barbarian. Turret hurts a lot.Give proof you can't cause it a lie. It's called brotherhood. Homosexuality in ancient Greece was forbidden and they would kill the gays. Keep believing lies in order to feel good about your abnormality by sick individuals.
@@freddie6307 sick lie believing freaks
I read "Circe" before "Song of Achilles" and I was /shocked/ at how much worse SoA is.
Possibly because Circe doesn't have a consistent love-interest and it is lots of mini-adventures strung together.
My most generous interpretation of why Miller didn't develop the relationship (or the characters) is that they were "fated to be" but she doesn't actually manifest that; neither of them is ever feels that they're drawn to the other person against their better judgment.
as someone who knew Greek myths inside and out, having read any mythology book I could get my hands on since elementary school, I could not get through Song of Achilles. I didn't know how to describe it at the time, but I have since gotten the words to express my utter distaste for taking a modern view (particularly regarding sex, sexuality and gender, but any modern view can apply) and pushing it on history and myth. I also hated the way Patroclus and Achilles were written, and it made me drop the book at least twice before deciding it was just not worth the effort to finish
the villainization of Thetis in particular also makes me angry because it's following a trend of making mothers terrible -- you see this often in adaptions/retellings of the Hades and Persephone myth and it's HORRIBLE
Right? Being Greek mythology geek since 7 years old backfires when it comes to retellings. When everyone was hyping up Percy Jackson, song of Achilles and Lore Olympus I ended up disappointed every time. And one good story I stumbled across I can't even discuss with anyone since it's really not that popular self-published trilogy in my native language (so no actual translation there)
As someone who knows greek myths and is also greek, let me remind you that the text of the iliad we have today is a modern take on a time period centuries before it was actually written down.
Stories are meant to be retold again and again and change each time.
An honest modern view is the right thing to do and definitely a thousand times better than trying to re-create some pseudo-ancient greek view out of misunderstandings, misinterpretations, ignorance, biases and straight up guessing.
This book was bad, don't get me wrong, but not because of her "taking a modern view".
@@yllejord ''misunderstandings, misinterpretations, ignorance, biases and straight up guessing''
That would describe about 70% of archaeology lol. The problem with the book is not the ''modern view'' its that it has poorly written characters, and also pushes an agenda. While there are indications that ancient Greeks had a different perception of the male sexuality, the narrative that is trying to present ancient Greece as some kind of LGBT Disneyland is completely false and disingenuous. Not because it clashes with our perception of male sexuality, but because its a lie. It creates in the minds of people who strive to find acceptance, a fantasy. The truth is that if a modern gay person (of the fabulous variety)time traveled in ancient Greece, instead of acceptance he would meet shock, awe and violence.
@@joek600 you're pushing an even worse agenda. Also, you're being wrong while doing it.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I read this book to the end just to see whether there was something great and earth shattering at the end since everyone else seems to love it! I jostle wondered what I had missed. Thank you so much for putting my thoughts into words! 😂
Omg I’m so happy I found this podcast! I’m currently reading this book and it’s just…so… bad????? Like it’s an insult to fanfiction to call it a fanfic, cause it’s just plain BAD. But everyone keep saying this book is the best thing ever, and I kept thinking what’s wrong with me, why can’t I enjoy this??? And then I found you guys and I’m no longer lonely!!! THANK YOU! Also I’m definitely team Will and Maria, yes to everything you say.
How dare you... insult fanfics so much with this published work. 😅😂
i've read fanfics with the most beautiful prose and character development that far outshine many published works
If ever there's an apocalypse, I have another book to add to my list of kindling.
Last summer while relaxing in the shade I saw two bumblebees bump into each other so hard one got knocked out of the air, landing on the patio where my dog promptly tried to eat it, and I think there's a metaphor in there.
James Gandolfini as Agamemnon. Now it's in my head. Now I need the retelling of The Illiad as a conflict among mafia families.
Everyone keeps praising this book, but I just remember when I read it (2019? Maybe late 2018? Idk) and was like: huh, okay, moving on.
I found it a little underwhelming and just… whatever. Not great. But people talk about it like it’s a masterpiece and I’m just confused. Did we all read the same book???
I was thinking about reading this book cause I heard how cool and revolutionary it is but now I think I’ll stick just to the version of Achilles and Patroclus from Hades, cause they are gay there and are not paper thin, soft boys but soft boys who can still kill a bitch if they have to
oh thank god you guys have a review of this book. i dnf'ed it after 48%. i saw it everywhere and gave it a good shot.
i would have loved to love this book. I vote for will on this xD will is unhindged this review and im for it.
im considering joing the patreon after hearing their consensus. sounds like the song of my people.
this is my favorite favorite review! thank you for taking the time and sharing your thoughts!
Maria "im not trying to take it from you..."
Will " I AM!!!!!"
It's all fun and games until they come for your babes lmao I loved this! It was therapeutic to hear some critical takes on this one
This book is beloved, and I think I only slightly like this better than Circe and I loved this one. Even so, guys, I'm here for you guys roasting this one.
Come at us William, let it out.
Edit: Hard agree with Katie, Odysseus is a dick but a charming one, he entertains us.
A Song of Feet and Hair
The Ballad of Achilles’ (Pink) Heels
Iliad more like Ili-minus amirite? 😅 I'll see myself out 😂
take a shot every time Will says "rage", but have a friend nearby to hold your hair for the aftermath...
More like to call 911 because you are NOT gonna survive that game without medical intervention
I recently read ‘The Silence of the Girls’ by Pat Barker, and whilst there are still issues with that book I felt more for Achilles and Patrochles in that book despite them being the villains (as the story is told from Brieses perspective
Patroclus was charming in that book and Barker keeps the fact that Patroclus was Achilles' charioteer in the story. And like Briseis, I felt so conflicted about liking him.
I like this channel because it helps me decide if I’m interested in popular books or not.
This was one of the most entertaining episodes you guys have delivered.
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω William οὐλομένην 😂😂😂
Finally ! Someone who hate this book as much as me. This is it. You gained a patreon.
#Williamisrightandshouldsayit
TLDR: When I wasn't bore with it, I was angry at how it treated it female characters and how Patroclus was done dirty and treated as a doormat and had no agency. And kept making heart eye at Achilles that had such a lack of personality I wondered what the hell Patroclus fell in love with. This is one of the rare case where I will never stop shouting that the original was better and more interesting.
I took Latin class in school whenever I had the options. I'm a huge ancient roman culture nerd and have strong feeling™ about the Iliad. TLDR: Hector is the best, Achilles is an asshole, Patroclus deserved better, and Ulysses had it coming
What I hated the most about this book (and Miller book in general) is that women are vilified or used as prop for men. They are either irrelevant or obstacle between the protagonists romance. Speaking about that my boy Patroclus has been done so dirty. In the original he is a competent and wise man, someone respected and mature. The Greek literally had debate about who was the mentor of the other. Because they had this thing were older men would have relationship with younger one and serve as mentor but also the two would be lover. Patroclus and Achilles were considered EQUAL in skill and how powerful they were. But in this book Patroclus have no agency and is treated as an incompetent doormat who spent 99% of the book worshipping the ground Achilles walk on. This is so much less interesting then what the original proposed for me.
To add to it all, the book really gave me stronger masculine guy x more sensible fragile guy cliche that permeate BL and yaoi. And just stories with gay men were the intended public is straight women in general. Yes, I have beef with that genre to an extend for how fetishistic some are.
Patroclus went from a fierce warrior to a passive nurse. Nothing wrong with nurses, in a war you really need them, but that's VERY different from the myth
@@jessnalulila5552 As someone who works in nursing - nurses can be fierce. Ever met a combat nurse? Just in general, nurses can be no nonsense but still be exceptionally compassionate without being weak. In face I would say that a passive nurse is the last thing you actually want. A passive nurse is the one who will wring their hands while you lay dying instead of doing whatever they can for you. You don't want a passive nurse.
And the concept of Patroclus being more of a healer to counter Achilles rather toxic personality flaws could have worked if Miller wanted something different. But that's not what we get at all.
I'm not somone who's been totally invested in Greek mythology but even I noticed when attempting to read this a few years back at how much of a doormat Patroclus was written as compared to his original self. And that's a bad sign if someone like me picks up on that little flaw. It also does a huge disservice to Achilles because it paints him as a much better character than he actually was. I would think it far more interesting if Patroclus still loved a monster while being accomplished in his own right.
And as someone who writes slash from time to time - yeah, the weird almost toxic pairings that this book seems to lean towards trouble me also. Not a fan at all. Having known gay/bi men in the military during a time period where they could lose their careers if outted - none of them acted or were anything like what Patroclus is presented as. It's immensely frustrating that gay men can't simply be written as men. That's what they are - men. No one should be encouraged to be a doormat, man or woman or otherwise. That shouldn't be a trait to aspire to but for some reason it's seen as part of epic romances now ("I'll fix [troubled lead] by just loving them enough"). This is made all the worse by knowing that gay men can be targeted and more vulnerable to exploitation and violence given the social climate and the discouragement to ask for help.
In general, it's a big turn off for me for a lot of the slash stories I see. But I'm also really into character driven stories - just having two people bang because they're attractive doesn't do a lot for me. Even worse if it's written for an audience that's being close to voyeuristic over the whole thing.
Thank you. You summed up 90% of my problem with yaoi/BL/shounen ai and why I stopped reading it long ago as I learned more about the LGBTQIA+ community. I think there is a hard conversation to have about why women love that genre. And how problematic it is that many in that community find an outlet for their sexuality (which there is nothing wrong about. Society do a good job at shaming women for it) but do so by walking over gay men and perpetuating harmful ideas and beliefs.
Fr because of so much power imbalance btw Achilles and patroclus.. I couldn't even imagine them being friends or companions let alone be lovers... They were supposed to be equal... Like other half of each other but patroclus was treated so badly
I just finished reading this after hearing so much gushing and it soon became a hate read for me😅 All the tropes and characterization reminded me of old BL/mlm romances where the supposed bottom is a passive doormat and the supposed top just somehow finds that attractive, add also the weird misogyny towards female characters but ig in this it's supposed to be ✨️realistic✨️ to the time period. I bet there's better fanfics made of these two even before this book came out 😂
I also wish to say that the thumbnail of this video should have absolutely been Will in rage. Lots of red.
The next Creator Clash should just be booktubers with wildly different opinions on the same book
It's gonna be like Priory all over again. These are fighting words🤣
Pistolas!
My favorite thing to do while I clean: listening to you three talk about books in my ear 😂❤
I would not mind listening to Will rant review this book. I haven't read it, but I read Circe and hated it for the passiveness of the main character. Hearing thet Songs of Achilles has the same issue, makes me think this is a writing style of the author, for which I wouldnt be interested in reading any in the future.
On a vaguely related note, why is there a popular book retelling about Circe and not Calypso? I recall liking her better in the Odessy.
I guess there's more to work on with Circe
Me again lol. I wish that instead of being like "here is what happened with their childhood, he's 12 but is so 😈😈 for Achilles" she wrote about those 10 years where there arent really many myths written and used the stories from childhood as backstory
Achilles should have gone to Troy not because of glory but because Patroclus had to go because he agreed when he went to see Helen at the beginning. And Achilles doesn't want to go, wants to grow old with Patroclus but knows that this is his only chance
@@krystinaythat would have made SO MUCH more sense. Also to use his ghost talking to Thetis as a framing device, and flashing back between their childhoods and the war, would have helped with that slow act 1&2 issue (which imo is part of what makes it feel like serialized fanfic).
I always assumed that noticing and recommending these kinds of things was what editors did 🤔
@missallisnow I totally agree. I liked the book when I read it last year but I definitely had all the issues with it that they talked about but I love the myth so much I overlooked it. But I remember at the end I was like.... why is he retelling her everything when he could have just started it this way. But I really did read it like I read fanfic and that's why I liked it lol
@@krystinay I have this mental image of miller sitting in some Greek Mythology 101 college class and coming up with this idea and never reevaluating how well it actually worked as a concept. And I get why people are/were into it... it's the same reason we (well, I at least) still read fanfic where the characters are horribly out of character. We're there for the premise and we're willing to overlook a lot.
@missallisnow they said she was a classics teacher in the video. Some dudebro student was probably like "bro, they sound gay AF" and Miller was like................ ✨️✨️✨️✨️😨🫨🫢😮🤯✨️✨️✨️✨️
The Iliad as codified by Homer is a historic fanfiction. And while I personally did enjoy SoA, this book is an OOC historic fanfiction of a historic fanfiction. If you have any love for the classics or any love for history, this book will make you rage the way Will raged.
I finally finished this video after watching it in chunks over the past two days and wow. That was a very good analysis. My experience reading the first 95% of Song of Achilles was made up of indifference, disappointment, and anger (specifically, towards the characters: the decisions they made make no sense!). Watching this video helped me realize that a lot of it was due to the characterization issues in this book (Achilles acting in ways that didn't match his characterization earlier in the book, Patroclus's passiveness, etc). Having very little familiarity beyond the basic plot points of the Iliad, reading this really did feel like reading a fanfic from a fandom you don't know, and that fanfic featuring a toxic relationship that people wouldn't be into unless they had prior context from the fandom itself (saying this as someone into very specific toxic fandom pairings myself lol: if I dumped that on someone with no context, they'd be horrified).
It wasn't until I got to the end of the book where Patroclus and Thetis talk that I truly felt that I could see the book's potential for what it was. Like, that's very late. The last five percent of the book. If the book had done its job right, I would have been invested much, much earlier than that, but still, that was the one scene that raised my one-star rating of the book to two stars. Maria's idea of recontextualizing the book as Patroclus telling his story to Thetis blew my mind. That would have made the book so much more enjoyable! It would center the book around not only Achilles and Patroclus, but also Patroclus and Thetis. If we had started out with a scene in the beginning like that, I would have paid special attention to Patroclus and Thetis, and the ending scene would be even more impactful.
Overall, my new assessment of this book is that it was written for a very specific audience, one that already is familiar with the Iliad and Achilles and Patroclus together as a concept that I definitely was not a part of.
I loved this book but its probably because right before I read it I did a whole 5 hour break down of retelling the background of the Iliad and the Iliad for my (sarcastic feminist history) podcast and cried when I read that and it was still so fresh. The gay side of it was also from him wanting their ashes mixed together which was just like not done
Also on the Odysseus hate wagon. I hate Odysseus from Troy from the moment he yeeted baby Astyanax off the wall of Troy and then murdered Hecuba (his spoil of war that he was going to sexually abuse) for daring to speak out against him after he called for the murder and enslavement of all her children and grandchildren, and then literally wreaked havoc on the entire world on his way back. (According to later myths)
As someone who read this book, and enjoyed it quite a bit ... you're right.
I am so glad you guys did this book! I usually wait to watch these videos until there's a nice window of time where I can do something brainless and watch your video at the same time, but when I saw that this video came out, I made sure to immediately block out two hours of my day so I can clean my house and watch this at the same time.
I read this book a little more than a year ago since I saw all the hype for it, all the beautiful Instagram fanart and decided I must read it. I tried very hard to like this book, I really did. But I was just extremely disappointed and did not like this book at all. And I'm saying this as someone who literally reads slash fanfiction. I almost dnf-ed this book several points in time because I could not stand it. The way women were treated in this book-sure, maybe it's historically accurate, but it was just disgusting to read, with the least misogynistic man in the book being Patroclus. I'm so glad to see this video (and Will) and know that my disappointment with this book is shared by many! Thank you, Will, for being honest with your rage. I felt every bit of it looking back on it. At the time, I had no idea why I hated this book so much, but you guys articulated several of the reasons why so well that now I am beginning to understand my feelings towards this book. Thank you!
I had to stop reading after the oh I feel insecure let me sleep with the girl my bf cheated on me with .
Percy Jackson does a better job of the demi god turmoil and being human but not
I read Sabriel in 5th grade (2002) and it is still 200/10 book
Aaah I personally liked the book back when I read it in 2018, but 1. I remember nothing about it, 2. I read it at a time where I was still cultivating my taste in books as an adult and was much less critical than I am now, and 3. After reading Circe and hating it with devotion I don't expect for this one to live up to my own standards lmao
And your criticism is so good as always! I understand how William would come to hate it so intensely if he has always held the Illiad so close to heart, it's written as fanfic of something that plagues the communal subconscious rather than an actual study of the Illiad and how certain circumstances could be changed.
I think Circe is much worse actually, I'm curious what yall would think about it. I think Miller's not like other girls and manic pixie literary tendencies show much more in that book and it feels very condescending to every female that isnt Circe. Also, she very much an Odysseus fangirl lol
Agreed. I got really upset when it came to how Athena was handled, especially how Telemachus…who literally owes everything he has to Athena, was just like “nah, bye, you’re awful” to her. What he did to Athena in that book, was no different than what Theseus did to Ariadne. Yet, a lot of people find that whole ordeal to be “romantic” because of how it was written/ told from Circe’s POV 🙄
Ouch, you guys. lol. I guess this is what it feels like watching your videos when you love the book… a new experience for me. 😅
Just to add, I don’t think it’s a retelling. It’s supposed to be a more detailed version of the original story as it has been told to us.
@@rachelember8810how is that different from a retelling?
@@missallisnow maybe it’s not 😆 🤷♀️ I guess I think of a retelling as a subversion, and I don’t really think that’s what song of achilles aimed for. I’ll be okay, I’m just nursing my hurt feelings!
@@rachelember8810 I mean taking the skill and agency away from one of the heroes is kinda subversive 😅
@@missallisnow we’ll agree to disagree. I should have known better than to interact here. 😬 I was just in my feelings.
I tried to read this the other year and I couldn’t get through it I was SO BORED. This book was only as popular as it is because it came out when there wasn’t a lot of queer content so people latched on to it. Now we have way better queer books and this book wouldn’t be beloved if it was written now 🤷
No, according to Plato and Aeschylus (the two who wrote them as gay) had it as a pederastic relationship… A pederastic relationship being where one was an adult and one was an adolescence.
I would also like to point out that while Plato did start out okay with this, Plato also changed his mind later in life where he says male love (especially in pederasty) is immoral.
Before starting the video I'll say that I read this book once about three years ago and... didn't quite get the hype. I liked it, I think I gave it 3 out of 5 stars, but I certainly didn't love it the way I'd seen others love and praise it. What I remember the best is not really understanding /why/ Patroclus and Achilles loved each other so much and were so devoted. Achilles felt aloof I suppose, and kinda underdeveloped, which didn't help matters. I also remember feeling like there was something weak about Patroclus, and I'm not sure how else to phrase that.
Okay, on to the video!
I love how you guys critique. and break down the glaring flaws in a book! By chance, does any one of you do developmental editing or proof-reading for writers, as a paid side gig? Lol
Yes! Will and I both do - if you’re interested in Wills feedback, reply to this and let him know. I think he does it through our Patreon. If you are interested in mine, my email is betareadingbykatie@gmail.com
@@unresolvedtextualtension Omg, perfect!! I’m an agented writer and have been STRUGGLING to find proof-readers who can actually pull the book apart and find it’s hidden flaws. I’ll be emailing you guys soon! 🙏🏾☺️ Just curious, are there any genres you two specifically do not have any interest in reading? The gist of my novel is Romeo and Juliet, but set in Ancient Egypt. Lol.
@@bethanycamille5379 oooh sounds interesting! i'll def read it :)
I read this book a couple years ago and I gave it 5 stars. That being said, I understand how some people might not enjoy it or find it underwhelming. For context, I’m a classics major and have been in love with all things Ancient Greece and Rome since I was a child. The Iliad is my favorite piece of ancient literature/poetry. Will is correct in saying that this book totally missed the mark in retelling the story of the Iliad for the modern audience. To me this book reads like a literary Patroclus/Achilles fanfiction version of the Iliad. I enjoyed that vibe very much while also acknowledging the gross misrepresentation of the characters of Patroclus and Achilles (they were both way too soft and passive) as well as the avoidance of addressing the complexities of Ancient Greek sexuality.
After listening to this and Kirke I think Miller has a substantial internalised misogyny problem.
As an archaeologist... I loathe this book. But what annoys me more is actually its fandom ^^" I give probs to Miller that she stayed true to Achilles character flaws but all this book did was making this mf a "queer icon", to the point people have started saying "Achillean" as an opposite pair to "Sapphic" (a REAL HISTORICAL woman!!!) and I hate it so much! Sorry, that needed to be said XD
I agree with Will, there should be an association that arrests bad authors and judges them😂😂
watching this podcast is my favorite way to skim off my tbr and then add really good books to my tbr (ty for pmo to hyperion, kushiels dart and tamysin muir books)
edit: ilove that will baited maria with the veterans thing
i'm so glad y'all didn't like this book as much as most other people, this was a very validating watch
Okay, I loved this book.
Finally, someone else who doesn't like SOA. While i didn't hate the book, I despised the fact that Miller rushed the best scene in the Iliad: The meeting of Priam and Achilles. Her version had no power, no depth, it was so rushed.
“…Odysseus and the horse thing”
Okay just started the video but am excited. I've heard nothing but praise for this book and my reaction has always just been like "Really?"
if you're interested in a really good story about the Trojan War, i recommend the 'Silence of the Girls' and 'Women of Troy' novels by Pat Barker, it's a duology that focuses on the stories of the women in the Trojan War who are left out of history, especially on Briseis and Cassandra, and it's really beautifully written and compelling. it's definitely probably in the literary historical fiction vein Miller was going for, but Barker's prose is good without her characters being flakey or emo-cringe, and if you consider that these historical women didn't necessarily have a lot of agency, the characters still do things, and its portrayal of female friendship and shared trauma is sensitively handled while being accepted as a norm/not as horrific as we'd treat it today. I think they're books you guys would enjoy reading, and still have some really good critical insights to
Loved this. Can attest I did not like Circe. I went into it thinking it would be a feminist retelling but Circe spent the entirety of the narrative whining about dudes lol. I have a feeling Will might not like it either 😂
Yeah I was sobbing on the plane next to strangers…
I feel like I was in the Maria boat where i do enjoy the interpretation of but I was bored. I liked it but in the way i liked Hani and Ishu's guide to fake dating it's not the best but it scratched an itch. I feel like i might not like it on rereading especially since I'm getting into epics (I read paradise lost I need to finish the illiad).
And the odysee, illias the sequel.
I thought it was great when I read it, but I was 14 and deep into fanfic…
This whole episode is pistolas and I'm all about it.
I had been hearing so many people talking about this book and just had no idea what was going on with it. I still don't get it.
There's not a ton to get. Patroclus is thirsty for Achilles's feet and then they die 😂
First person is really hard to do, unless you are really good at it, don't do it.
Ok look. I didn’t read the Iliad. I read the Odyssey in high school but it was one of the few books I didn’t enjoy. But I liked the song of Achilles. At least I’m pretty sure I liked it. It made me cry a whole bunch.
Y'all are my favorite ❤
Sometimes reviews on this channel sound like random complaining, but this one feels like real analysis.
I write in first person. and its a challenge to express some feelings without using "I feel" "I felt" statements throughout. Everything I hear and I've read I feel has less impact than showing.
Look, I LOVE fanfiction, and this book doesn't even make a good fanfiction.
Troy is one of my faves. Extended version even better
There’s a trend that I’m seeing where people assume that men with close, supportive friendships with other men are somehow homosexual. I think that assumption is toxic, having close friendships with other men is an emotionally healthy thing.
I dont thonk its new, and thereis also the trend that gay representation wasnot allowed to be explicit for the most part,or rather,in overtones.
Also conflating romance and friendship, not that both cant be the case.
Seriously the pretending that like archilles and partoclus and other even real lifepeople werent gay or bi.
Friendships rarely go that far,ok they do but there are romance tropes that are used as shortcut to friendships that,
Makes the romanced look really random and wrong.
It depends. But if you do more building up the romance with a friend, not always, but you can just write a romance too if you overdo it without care not great
it is concerning to me, too. i'm all for gay representation (am gay myself), but i don't like that men can't seem to have close relationships without being "shipped" or assumed to be in love. it just perpetuates harmful stereotypes and gender roles.
They where just hecking good friends.
1:30:26 now imagining agamemnon as tony soprano
I did not like this book. But the greek publics reaction to this book was HILARIOUS to me. The PURE homophobia was wild. ...on the other hand this book sucked
Ok i am glad it exists for that alone.
@@marocat4749 same. Disappointed in you, the homophobes of Greece.
It was super interesting listening to this because it seems like the gripes I had with Circe's world-building would carry over to The Song of Achilles as well. (For context: Circe's world-building felt very anachronistic to me, as someone who's a bit of a mythology and ancient religions nerd). I was also taken in by the ridiculous hype over Miller's fiction and was left very disappointed. I didn't hate Circe, but just didn't understand what all the fuss was about, given its flaws - also, it is absolutely not, in any way shape or form, a 'feminist retelling of the Odyssey' (I really freaking hate that kind of marketing bait). Methinks you would not particularly enjoy it, given your reactions to The Song of Achilles.
do you guys mind if I write a fanfic based on "patrcolus being obsessed with the glory"?
RUINED GREEK MYTHOLOGY TO WRITE ABOUT SOFT SAD BOYS YOU ARE COMPLETELY CORRECT
I hate this book and I just became a Patron, low-key feel like I manifested this
Ok so I've been avoiding this video like the plague since I enjoyed the book. BUT now I'm realizing that one of the main reasons I liked it was cus it was about gay Greek myth and the characters and world was kinda a nothing burger. Like its the empty calories version of Greek myth.
Also during the time, the archetypical hero was assumed to be bisexual. Like they would have wife's and sleep with women but also would be so down bad for any remotely pretty boy they met. So the almost modern levels of homophobia is strange.
Also also Apollo is literally known for chasing after every nimph and sexy guy he sees to the point that like 4 people have jumped off cliffs to get away from him and countless people have turned into plants for the same reason. It wouldn't make sense for people to be homophobic unless your the bottom since that's kinda how they saw it. It's ok to sleep with men as long as "you do the fucking and don't get fucked" so if that would have been interesting if he was worried about how people would treat him from that angle and not the "oh no, people will be against us being together, at all". 😅
It almost feels like the author assumes you already have a bases of knowledge about the time and mythology she's writing about as so you understand the context of the book. But if you have that context then the way she's presenting a sanitized version of the myth while also doing a ton of PR work for both sad soft gay boys stops making sense.
It's frustrating cus it could have been so good with a bit more work 😢
No!!! Don’t you dare touch one of my favorite books!…I’ll still watch the video. Love you guys.