'They were STOLEN!' | Furious Elgin Marbles row breaks out over Greek artefacts
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- Опубликовано: 21 авг 2024
- Tonia Buxton and Rafe Heydel-Mankoo clash over the Elgin Marbles and if they should be returned to Greece from the British Museum.
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Elgin marbles??? We name them after the thief? Parthenon marbles please…. Bluffed by the ignorance of some people despite the unquestionable evidence that shows what happened back then…
I think the operative words here are: "back then"! This all happened so long ago, and still the fire burns on this argument.
How about we make accurate copies (it can be done, in the most authentic way) and display those in the British Museum, and send the originals back? Then maybe everybody will be happy.
Give us the marbles back
The Elgin Marbles are an ancient treasure in the true sense of the word, but from a nationalist perspective they are not our treasure. It is not our history, our ancestors, our heritage, or our pride. They hold no significance for the English beyond the aesthetic, they are a trophy.
They belong to Greece i love Tonia go for it girl ❤
Greeks are asking for the Parthenon marbles since they became a state in 1830s. You can’t say that Greeks sold them. It was the Ottomans that called these “rocks” and didn’t care for Elgin
@@vibes292 it is very sad that British have to accept that they are not an empire now and have to return the stolen treasures they obtained violently. The fact that you don’t belong to EU doesn’t mean you shouldn’t act like a country of 21st century and follow the Unesco requests and the common world opinion. Thankfully the majority of your fellow citizens don’t have the same aggressive opinion of you and your prime minister.
@@vibes292 There is not such notion of Macedonian land that is not Greek, it's like claiming that a natural number is not a rational number. Turkish islands 😂😂. You might be a barbarian but you are a funny one 😂
Museums are places where objects are exhibited, which are found or come from, the place that surrounds them. We would not think of the Beijing museum exhibiting Beethoven's original musicscores, even if 1,000,000,000 Chinese people visited them or the Nairobi museum exhibiting Viking ships.
In 1800, when Elgin first saw the Acropolis, the Parthenon, and its sculptures, my country was under Islamic occupation. However, the sculptures were there in their high position, from -500 to +1800, i.e., for 2300 years. Even the Islamists did not think to touch them.
Elgin presented false documents to the islamic governor of Athens. While the real document from the leader of the islamists in Constantinople gave him the right to draw them, and to put back in their place some that had fallen down, (strange for islamists, but true), he took huge saws and sawed them!
How about rescue! Is sawing the marble of an ancient temple salvage? His presence there, had nothing to do with salvation, the Scott had no idea about what he was looking, other than free decors, to poke out the eye of his neighbor Duke, and please his wife's vanity. He acted personally, not representing the British Government at any level. The British Museum came on the scene long after the sculptures have already been in Scotland, trying to find a legitimate way for their ownership.
He wanted them to decorate his mansion in Scotland. His wife was in on it. She was together and chose which ones she liked to decorate her gardens. In a letter back to Scotland to her father, she wrote:
"Papa, today one of the Greek transport workers told me that last night he thought he heard one of the female statues crying".
This alone shows the sorrow of the Greeks for the theft that took place in front of their eyes, without them being able to react. This was the burden of islamic occupation we suffered, to fear for our own lives, if we said anything contrary to ruling islamic masters. With the presence of an Indian prime minister, an Arab first minister of Scotland, and a Pakistani mayor of London, soon Britons will come to my sayings of what islamic oppression is all about.
Back to our topic.
The sculptures were transported by ships. One of them sank due to greed, like an overload, and the sculptures remained at the bottom of the sea. When they were finally recovered again and arrived in Scotland, the thief had lost so much money that he had to sell them.
The British museum would not dare today to put on display a painting from a Ukrainian museum stolen by the Russians. In 1815, the Laws regarding antiquities were very different from today's.
If Hitler hypothetically occupied England in 1942 and the crown jewels of England were taken by a Japanese general, and today they were in the Tokyo museum, would the later liberated England ask for them back or not?
And let me not mention the bleach that was thrown back on the sculptures in 1930, to remove the blackness that had settled on them from London's atmospheric pollution, bleach that ate away at the limestone and erased its details from the faces and clothing of the sculptures.
Englishmen! You were a Roman province! I am sure there are thousands of Roman artifacts in your lands, both earlier and later, to display in a truly BRITISH Museum.
Anything else you exhibit that has been transferred in a questionable manner from areas you have dominated, or were dominated by others, contrary to the wishes of the local people, is the product of theft and you must return it.
After all, a visit to Athens costs the same as a visit to London. And just as we do not visit Panama to see Notre Dame, nor Moscow for the Pyramids of Egypt, it is equally crazy to say that we visit London to see the sculptures of the Parthenon that a thief took there.
We, the nation of all 25.000.000 Greeks across our Planet, we have asked them back since 1832, when we got back our liberty from islamic law of occupation. From day one, we asked them back, from Greek governments across the political spectrum, its not a thing of the current government. For once in history, be on the right side of history, acknowledge the right of our demand, and return them back, even with all the damages they suffer the last 200 years. Our majestic Acropolis Museum has pré-réservated places for each one of them.
@vibes292 I'm sure you are a well informed gentleman, and an optimal user of your language, where I lack in both. Now that you have said that, let's put aside all sauvinism from both of us about archeological museums, Indians and Pakistanis, and let's have a look, where all began, at the row core of the family of Elgin. Put aside everything else, and let's see if such a family had any interest of archeological salvage, or it was a pure low vanity. I'm sure you know all this, but let's refresh our readers memory.
Mistress of the Elgin Marbles:
A Biography of Mary Nisbet,
Countess of Elgin
Reviewed By Cheryl Bolen
Mistress of the Elgin Marbles: A Biography of Mary Nisbet, Countess of Elgin
Susan Nagel
William Morrow, 2004
$24.95, 294 pages
Two centuries after the most famous plunder of architectural antiquities in history, the name Elgin is still recognized in English speaking countries. Lord Elgin’s “marbles” have, after all, been immortalized by famed romantic poets and are currently being seen at the British Museum by five million visitors a year.
During her own lifetime Lord Elgin’s wife was even more well known as an adulteress whose aristocratic husband dragged her name through the newspapers in an extremely well-publicized divorce.
American Susan Nagel in her first biography has now brought the facts of Lady Elgin’s life to light. Through a New York friend, Nagel met the current Earl of Elgin and other descendants who gave her access to the former countess’s letters and diaries.
Unfortunately, few of these letters appear in the book. Only twice does the reader get a glimpse into the personality of Mary: during the short life and wrenching death of her much loved second son and during a separation from her husband when her letters prove that she was in love with him.
The rest of the book reads as if Nagel is trying to please Mary’s descendants by telling the reader how wonderful she was. I, for one, would rather be shown.
We must be grateful, though, to Nagel for finally investigating one of the most well-known women in nineteenth century Britain.
Despite being one of the richest women in the British Isles, Mary Nisbet (her maiden name) led a bittersweet life.
She was born in 1778 as the only child of wealthy Scots, William Hamilton Nisbet (1747-1822) and Mary Manners (1756-1834), who was the granddaughter of the 2nd Duke of Rutland. Mary Nisbet’s paternal grandmother owned Biel, which at that time was the longest house in Europe.
Many aristocratic young men attempted to woo Mary Nisbet for her fortune, but she chose Thomas Bruce, the 7th Earl of Elgin, a fellow Scotsman 12 years her senior. A handsome man, Elgin was gaining increasingly more important posts in the diplomatic corp but knew he needed great wealth to truly distinguish himself.
Nagel tells us almost nothing about their courtship. They married in 1799 and shortly thereafter set off for Turkey, where Lord Elgin had been appointed ambassador extraordinaire to the Ottoman Empire.
Despite her youth, Mary proved a capable ambassadress, was admired by all, and was showered with gifts from Turkish leaders, including the sultan.
After two and half years in Constantinople, the Elgins needed R&R. Lord Elgin, who suffered asthma, had - under doctor’s orders - been dousing himself with large quantities of mercury for his frequent lung complaints. It is now believed the mercury (and not the rumored syphilis) caused the abrasions on Elgin’s nose that prompted doctors to cut off its tip, disfiguring him. His recuperative visit to Greece established Elgin’s place in history.
It is unclear from Nagle’s work just why Elgin appointed himself as the person to remove much of the Parthenon from the Acropolis and tote - at considerable expense and trouble - the ancient statuary back to England. He clearly meant to keep the antiquities for his personal use.
What Nagle is at great pains to explain is that if Elgin had not “rescued” them, they would not have had a chance of being preserved because of the looting practices prevalent at the time.
Mary actually executed her husband’s plan for removing the pediment sculptures, metopes, and friezes and shipping them back to England while her husband was traipsing about Greece.
During their three-year assignment at Constantinople, Mary would bear a son and two daughters before setting out to return to England.
The Elgins sent their children by boat while they planned to travel leisurely through the continent, taking advantage of the fact Europe was finally at peace after the Treaty of Amiens.
While they were in France, though, Napoleon declared war again and decided to take Lord Elgin as a prisoner. He would be a French prisoner for more than two years.
When they had arrived in France, the Elgins had been happily married for four years, showed every sign of being devoted to each other, and Mary was pregnant with their fourth child. The two years put a strain upon their marriage that could never be repaired. When Lord Elgin was in captivity, he was cross with his wife for staying in Paris - with his best friend, Robert Ferguson - working for his release instead of staying near her husband in Lourdes. When he was not in captivity but still unable to leave France, his stature was reduced. The only thing that united husband and wife at this trying time was the love of their second son, who was born in France. His death 13 months later nearly destroyed Mary, who suffered from melancholy for many months afterward.
Her fifth and final pregnancy drove a wedge through the once-happy couple. Lord Elgin ordered her to leave France for the child’s birth. The spoiled Mary was angered at being ordered to do something she did not want to do and even more angered over the unwanted pregnancy.
She determined she would never get pregnant again.
And, Nagle alleges (most likely correctly), the cessation of sexual relations is what caused Lord Elgin to seek divorce shortly after his return to England. (Nagle never explains the circumstances surrounding his release.)
But Lord Elgin did have other cause to seek a divorce. Ferguson had fallen in love with Mary, and Elgin mistakenly opened a love letter from Ferguson to his wife.
The reader never gains insight into Mary’s feelings toward Ferguson at that time. Proof of her infidelity apparently does not exist. It is clear Mary did not want divorce. She tried everything she could to keep him from seeking the parliamentary divorce, but the earl was adamant.
He also, mistakenly, believed he would get all his wife’s money.
He got his divorce but not the fortune. He took sole custody of their four children, and Mary would not be able to see them again. He remarried a woman 24 years his junior who bore him eight more children. Eight years after the divorce the cash-strapped Elgin would sell the marbles to the British government. (Nagel does not tell us the price.) Elgin would die in 1844, the year after the death of his first son. None of the Elgin descendants since that time have been blood relatives of Mary.
Mary married Ferguson but never got pregnant again. Nagel “tells” us she had an affectionate marriage, but one has to wonder if she had not determined to shun sexual relations. She did prove to be an affectionate stepmother to Ferguson’s bastard son.
When Mary’s own son reached his majority he wanted to see his mother. She must have known when she went to him the sickly young man would never succeed his father as Lord Elgin. The mercury he had been taking since infancy for his asthmatic complaints had poisoned him. He died at 40.
Her three daughters did not initiate a reunion with their mother until they were in their forties - and likely wishing to benefit from the death of their then-elderly, very wealthy mother. Mary, who did not die until 1855, eagerly welcomed her daughters back into her life.
For the most part Nagle adequately educated herself about the Regency, but a couple of snafus made it into the text, the most rankling her assertion that a gentleman during the Regency could live well on £150 a year.
Readers grateful to Nagel for the labor-intensive primary research that went into this project are also disappointed that she absorbed the information unto herself and did not deem to share examples that would have enriched the text. She may have notched some impressive magazine credits, but she is out of her league in historical biographical research.
This article was first published in The Quizzing Glass in April 2008.
@vibes292 Let's have some more contemporary view on the recent events, and more information for this awesome couple and family, swimming in mercury, opium, and gold. By Reuters:
The other Elgin behind the ‘stolen’ marbles in the British Museum
By William Booth
Updated November 28, 2023 at 11:24 a.m. EST|Published November 28, 2023 at 5:30 a.m. EST
The Parthenon sculptures, sometimes referred to as the “Elgin marbles,” on display at the British Museum in London. (Toby Melville/Reuters)
LONDON - A planned meeting between the British and Greek prime ministers this week was a casualty of one of the world’s longest-running disputes: what to do with the 2,500-year-old Parthenon sculptures - “the Elgin marbles” - showcased at the British Museum.
Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said in a late Monday statement he was dismayed the British side had canceled “just hours before” the scheduled meeting. “Anyone who believes in the correctness and justice of their positions is never hesitant to engage in constructive argumentation and debate,” he said.
The British government on Tuesday said the meeting was scrapped because Greece violated an agreement not to “use the visit as a public platform to re-litigate long-settled matters relating to the ownership of the Parthenon sculptures.”
On Sunday, Mitsotakis spoke about the sculptures on the BBC, reiterating the view that they “belong to Greece” and “were essentially stolen.” The Greek premier suggested that when Lord Elgin, Britain’s ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, took a portion of the architectural decoration from the Parthenon in Athens in the early 19th century, it was “as if I told you that you would cut the Mona Lisa in half.”
In the history books, Thomas Bruce, 7th Earl of Elgin, gets most of the ink, condemned as vandal or praised as preservationist. His wife, who had the money in the family, gets far less attention. That is too bad. Mary Nisbet, Countess of Elgin, is a character for the ages.
She brought a smallpox vaccine to the Middle East, negotiated with Napoleon and helped her husband make off with the marbles of ancient Athens - only to see herself dragged through one of the most scandalous divorces of her age. All this and more in scholar Susan Nagel’s 2004 biography “Mistress of the Elgin Marbles,” which is a grand tour into her extraordinary life and times.
Her biographer argues that it was not only Mary’s fabulous wealth that helped her husband acquire the contested sculptures but her acrimonious divorce that forced him to sell them to the British Museum, which has kept them safe for 200 years. If that is so, was it Mary who both “stole” and “saved” them?
A vivacious, adventuresome, pampered heiress to vast estates in Scotland, Mary was 21 when she married the ambitious but already indebted Thomas Bruce in 1799.
All began well. Though opposites, and he 12 years her senior, the lord and lady made a love match. She called him Eggy. He called her Poll. The newlyweds were quickly off to Constantinople, where he would serve as Ambassador Extraordinaire to the Ottoman Empire.
Historian William St Clair, author of “Lord Elgin and the Marbles,” judges Mary as “a rather silly girl,” based on her letters. But her correspondence and diaries provide the best dish.
It is through Mary’s eyes we learn that this couple knew how to travel. They brought along a retinue of servants, advisers and secretaries, as well as their own pianos. Plural. They hosted lots of parties and, befitting their diplomatic roles, gave lavish gifts to the Turks: gold watches, English pistols, musical clocks and yards of satin, brocade, velvet and damask.
In her letters home, Mary describes the couple being carried on golden chairs upon their arrival in Constantinople, the Istanbul of today, and fed 26-course meals. She recalls the day they were led into the sultan’s inner sanctum - through halls lined with eunuchs - into the audience chamber, where sat the ruler on his bed-slash-throne, an ink well and a pile of diamonds at his elbow. Mary called him “the Monster.”
During their time in the east, Lord Elgin dispatched teams of artists to Athens, to draw, measure and make molds of what remained of the classical sculpture atop the Acropolis, especially the Parthenon, a temple built by the Greeks for the goddess Athena in the fifth century BC.
By the time Elgin’s men arrived, the Parthenon had been occupied, desecrated and burned. Over the centuries, it was looted by conquering Roman generals, seized by Alaric the Goth and blown up by the Venetians in 1687. It had been transformed from pagan temple to church, then mosque, then military garrison and munitions dump. A final assault saw the elegant ruins beset by European gentlemen hunting souvenirs - against the threat of imminent invasion by the French.
As it turned out, Elgin’s crew did far more than sketch. They hauled away. From 1800 to 1803, they stripped the Parthenon of remaining friezes and sculpture, doing grave damage.
Lord Byron, who toured the Parthenon at the time, was appalled and so composed a poem, “The Curse of Minerva,” to condemn Elgin’s vandalism.
Throughout, Mary was an enthusiastic partner to her husband’s rapacious collecting, convincing sea captains to fill their cargo holds with crates to take back to England.
“How I have faged to get all this done, do you love me better for it, Elgin?” she wrote her husband, adding, “I am now satisfied of that I always thought: which is how much more Women can do if they set about it than Men.”
The costs were enormous. It took years to get the marbles to Britain. Bruce Clark, author of “Athens: City of Wisdom,” argues in the pages of the Smithsonian magazine that Elgin was not alone in antiquarian mania, but “surrounded by people whose zeal for the removal of Greek antiquities outpaced his own. These included his ultrawealthy parents-in-law, whose money ultimately made the operation possible.”
On their way home to Britain, the couple traveled through France just as war broke out (again), forcing Ambassador Elgin to serve a lengthy gentleman’s sentence of luxurious house arrest.
While in Paris, the couple’s fourth child died while Mary was pregnant with their fifth. The couple persuaded Napoleon to allow Mary to return to London in October 1805. Elgin finally came home in June 1806.
Mary’s biographer relates how the birth of her last child was a deeply traumatic experience for the countess, requiring her physician to dose her, postpartum, with brandy, opium and toast soaked in white wine.
Mary had had enough. While her husband was awaiting parole in France, she informed him that she needed a very long rest from the marital bed.
Either Elgin “would practice birth control from then on or there would be no sex at all,” Nagel says, quoting from Mary’s correspondence. The countess begs her Eggy to hear her prayer: “I am worn out and would rather shut myself up in a nunnery for life.”
Elgin himself was in poor health. Perhaps this is the appropriate paragraph to mention he suffered from asthma and syphilis, and had lost most of his nose to the disease and crank cures, leaving him, as St Clair describes it, “monstrously disfigured.”
While the couple were separated, a close family friend, Robert Ferguson, began to woo Mary. He wrote passionate letters. She returned his affection. And the clincher? Ferguson promised “devotion, fidelity, and no more children,” Nagel says.
Upon his return home, Lord Elgin discovered their secret. “Overcome with rage and jealousy, Elgin determined that if she would have no more children with him and would allow another man to love her, he would divorce,” Nagel recounts.
In the early 1800s in Britain, in such an exalted marriage, Elgin chose the nuclear option. A separation could be handled quietly, with money, which Mary tried. But Elgin sought divorce in London, which required an Act of Parliament, and in Edinburgh, with all its attendant scandal, with the salacious testimony provided by servants - the who, where and what stain on the sofa? - covered in the tabloids of the age with all-cap headlines like: “WERE HER LADYSHIP’S PETTICOATS UP?”
Elgin won, but he lost access to his ex-wife’s money.
Mary lost rights to her four children, who were estranged from their mother for decades.
Nagel argues that had Elgin not divorced his wife, “there is no doubt” that the marbles would have remained in private hands in his family. “Without Mary’s fortune, which increased spectacularly in the nineteenth century, Elgin was unable to sustain the mounting costs of excavating, shipping, sorting and paying bribes … In dire financial straits, he was forced in 1816 to sell the collection to the British Museum.”
So much for Lord Elgin. What happened to Mary? She married Robert Ferguson and couple lived happily into deep old age. The scandal receded. Mary kept up an active social life. True to her promise, she had no more children, but was eventually reunited with those lost to divorce.
So in her own way, Nagel says, the young pampered countess - who helped her first husband strip the Parthenon - evolved into an “early champion of women’s property and reproductive rights.”
If we are to return 'stolen historical property' then islam should return my local high St.
Well said!
And the £43 Billion Benefits stolen annually in London alone
@@FFS704Problem is you Christians owe them trillions of pounds of loot your ancestors took and from which you benefit 😂
@@thesiren1268Ah yes,the innocent Islamic religion which never stole or committed violence throughout history
😂
So, you don't want anyone to return your high St. is that it?
What a rude woman! Demanding she is not interrupted and then constantly interrupting and shouting over the other guest. Her behaviour is, perhaps, more Ottoman Turk than she would like to admit!
Usually a sign the debate is being lost when the "debater" constantly interrupts /talks over other debaters . (Usually
much more common on the left. )
yes, of course, she isn't used to British fake politeness...
Can you imagine the marble in her hands? 😀😀
There is no such ethnicity as Turkish you fool they have no specific dna strand unlike the Greeks who have the same DNA as Italians. Are the Italians Turkish also you fool 😂
Turks are way better than both you and that woman... It was not occupied. Learn history first.
It's simple. If items were stolen due to conquest then it ought to be given back. If they were bought or gifted then said items are kept.
Museums are places where objects are exhibited, which are found or come from, the place that surrounds them. We would not think of the Beijing museum exhibiting Beethoven's original musicscores, even if 1,000,000,000 Chinese people visited them or the Nairobi museum exhibiting Viking ships.
In 1800, when Elgin first saw the Acropolis, the Parthenon, and its cultures, my country was under Islamic occupation. However, the sculptures were there in their high position, from -500 to +1800, i.e., for 2300 years. Even the Islamists did not think to touch them.
Elgin presented false documents to the islamic governor of Athens. While the real document from the leader of the islamists in Constantinople gave him the right to draw them, and to put back in their place some that had fallen down, (strange for islamists, but true), he took huge saws and sawed them!
How about rescue! Is sawing the marble of an ancient temple salvage? His presence there, had nothing to do with salvation, the Scott had no idea about what he was looking, other than free decors, to poke out the eye of his neighbor Duke, and please his wife's vanity. He acted personally, not representing the British Government at any level. The British Museum came on the scene long after the sculptures have already been in Scotland, trying to find a legitimate way for their ownership.
He wanted them to decorate his mansion in Scotland. His wife was in on it. She was together and chose which ones she liked to decorate her gardens. In a letter back to Scotland to her father, she wrote:
"Papa, today one of the Greek transport workers told me that last night he thought he heard one of the female statues crying".
This alone shows the sorrow of the Greeks for the theft that took place in front of their eyes, without them being able to react.
The sculptures were transported by ships. One of them sank due to greed, like an overload, and the sculptures remained at the bottom of the sea. When they were finally recovered again and arrived in Scotland, the thief had lost so much money that he had to sell them.
The British museum would not dare today to put on display a painting from a Ukrainian museum stolen by the Russians. In 1815, the Laws regarding antiquities were very different from today's.
If Hitler hypothetically occupied England in 1942 and the crown jewels of England were taken by a Japanese general, and today they were in the Tokyo museum, would the later liberated England ask for them back or not?
And let me not mention the bleach that was thrown back on the sculptures in 1930, to remove the blackness that had settled on them from London's atmospheric pollution, bleach that ate away at the limestone and erased its details from the faces and clothing of the sculptures.
Englishmen! You were a Roman province! I am sure there are thousands of Roman artifacts in your lands, both earlier and later, to display in a truly BRITISH Museum.
Anything else you exhibit that has been transferred in a questionable manner from areas you have dominated, or were dominated by others, contrary to the wishes of the local people, is the product of theft and you must return it.
After all, a visit to Athens costs the same as a visit to London. And just as we do not visit Panama to see Notre Dame, nor Moscow for the Pyramids of Egypt, it is equally crazy to say that we visit London to see the sculptures of the Parthenon that a thief took there.
We, the nation of all Greeks, we have asked them back since 1832, when we got back our liberty from islamic law of occupation. From day one, we asked them back, from Greek governments across the political spectrum, its not a thing of the current government. For once in history, be on the right side of history, acknowledge the right of our demand, and return them back, even with all the damages they suffer the last 200 years. Our majestic Acropolis Museum has pré-réservated places for each one of them.
This simplistic man who calls himself half Greek says that Elgin saved the marbles when actually Tom Bruce (the man who managed to take the approval for the marbles to be taken) writes in his memoir that when they tried to take the third part of the Parthenon roof they destroyed a big part of it and he called the rest of stealing of. How on earth this guy is allowed to talk like that when there is this kind of proof
I seem to remember someone (a historian friend) mentioning that 70% of the land "confiscated" by the Normans in 1066 is still in the hands of the descendants of those families
We demand reparations for the Beaker People !
@@kumasenlac5504 I’ve got a beaker can I have some reparations.
and the Bayeaux Taplestry - it was embroidered by English nuns in Kent to depict the conquering of the Anglo Saxons by the Normans. Are we demanding this back?
Thats crazy but didn't they become part of English? I mean Anglo Saxons themselves occupied the land by force.
@@politicallyincorrect2564 The Saxons, Angles and Jutes migrated in large numbers and there are some historical records of battles that took place though it’s known that the local Britons did not lose them all, the numbers were the problem as the migrants increased the local tribes moved west and north to become Welsh, Irish, Scots and Cornish, technically all land has been taken by someone at some time.
And the roman empire stole all of England's gold and silver. SO what.
You are not allowed to go that far back regarding England's history or any references to events like that. Only references regarding slave trades or colonial conquests are permitted.
Yes exactly
Its pathetic
there was no england that time
They weren't stolen. The Greeks and Egyptians used thete ancient monuments as bomb sites during the war, they didn't care about them. People are living in Egyptian tombs today....wake up. These gems would have been lost if it wasn't for the British Museum. Woke!!
You're very ignorant. The Turks used the Parthenon for ammunition not us Greeks.
Greece was occupied during that time...
The fact is, they were bought. That's it. End of debate.
Even the British know buying stolen goods is a crime.
No. They were stolen by the Ottomans and then bought by the British
They were bought from the invading turks and NOT from the indigenous greeks
That’s right. The scary is thing how ignorant some people are. Especially those who claim that they were stolen.
@@georgerj2419 They were not purchased from the Greeks. It was purchased from the Turks
If I remember correctly, the "safe hands" of the British Museum did some restoration work on the marbles and actually damaged them. London may think that it is the Centre of the Universe but that is far from the case. The arrogance there is appalling.
The Marbles were stolen from Greece- give them back.
Museums are places where objects are exhibited, which are found or come from, the place that surrounds them. We would not think of the Beijing museum exhibiting Beethoven's original musicscores, even if 1,000,000,000 Chinese people visited them or the Nairobi museum exhibiting Viking ships.
In 1800, when Elgin first saw the Acropolis, the Parthenon, and its sculptures, my country was under Islamic occupation. However, the sculptures were there in their high position, from -500 to +1800, i.e., for 2300 years. Even the Islamists did not think to touch them.
Elgin presented false documents to the islamic governor of Athens. While the real document from the leader of the islamists in Constantinople gave him the right to draw them, and to put back in their place some that had fallen down, (strange for islamists, but true), he took huge saws and sawed them!
How about rescue! Is sawing the marble of an ancient temple salvage? His presence there, had nothing to do with salvation, the Scott had no idea about what he was looking, other than free decors, to poke out the eye of his neighbor Duke, and please his wife's vanity. He acted personally, not representing the British Government at any level. The British Museum came on the scene long after the sculptures have already been in Scotland, trying to find a legitimate way for their ownership.
He wanted them to decorate his mansion in Scotland. His wife was in on it. She was together and chose which ones she liked to decorate her gardens. In a letter back to Scotland to her father, she wrote:
"Papa, today one of the Greek transport workers told me that last night he thought he heard one of the female statues crying".
This alone shows the sorrow of the Greeks for the theft that took place in front of their eyes, without them being able to react. This was the burden of islamic occupation we suffered, to fear for our own lives, if we said anything contrary to ruling islamic masters. With the presence of an Indian prime minister, an Arab first minister of Scotland, and a Pakistani mayor of London, soon Britons will come to my sayings of what islamic oppression is all about.
Back to our topic.
The sculptures were transported by ships. One of them sank due to greed, like an overload, and the sculptures remained at the bottom of the sea. When they were finally recovered again and arrived in Scotland, the thief had lost so much money that he had to sell them.
The British museum would not dare today to put on display a painting from a Ukrainian museum stolen by the Russians. In 1815, the Laws regarding antiquities were very different from today's.
If Hitler hypothetically occupied England in 1942 and the crown jewels of England were taken by a Japanese general, and today they were in the Tokyo museum, would the later liberated England ask for them back or not?
And let me not mention the bleach that was thrown back on the sculptures in 1930, to remove the blackness that had settled on them from London's atmospheric pollution, bleach that ate away at the limestone and erased its details from the faces and clothing of the sculptures.
Englishmen! You were a Roman province! I am sure there are thousands of Roman artifacts in your lands, both earlier and later, to display in a truly BRITISH Museum.
Anything else you exhibit that has been transferred in a questionable manner from areas you have dominated, or were dominated by others, contrary to the wishes of the local people, is the product of theft and you must return it.
After all, a visit to Athens costs the same as a visit to London. And just as we do not visit Panama to see Notre Dame, nor Moscow for the Pyramids of Egypt, it is equally crazy to say that we visit London to see the sculptures of the Parthenon that a thief took there.
We, the nation of all 25.000.000 Greeks across our Planet, we have asked them back since 1832, when we got back our liberty from islamic law of occupation. From day one, we asked them back, from Greek governments across the political spectrum, its not a thing of the current government. For once in history, be on the right side of history, acknowledge the right of our demand, and return them back, even with all the damages they suffer the last 200 years. Our majestic Acropolis Museum has pré-réservated places for each one of them.
@@iggo45Eloquently put. I agree with you completely. Your comment about the crown jewels is interesting as some of the diamonds within may have been obtained unethically as an occupying power (Don't expect the royals to be ethical, anyway).
While I will not make apologies for actions carried out by others in the past, this is a wrong that can so easily be put right. The Marbles should be returned to Greece where they belong.
This argument is going nowhere. We know that the Left's goal is to break this country apart.
With these people, the old Groucho Marx song seems to apply.'Whatever it is, I'm against it.'
😂😂the Nazis gold stolen off jews should stay with Germany
Well, they were stolen, but that's not the argument that won me, personally. Many of the treasures in the British Museum, and other museums, are stolen. The thing with the Parthenon marbles is that they are a piece of an entire work of art, the Parthenon. The Mona Lisa argument that the Greek PM gave makes sense to me. I hope they find a way to work it out. By the way, for those interested, look up the letters that Lord Elgin's wife was writing to him at the time. She was asking him to bring back *the entire parthenon*, and set it up in their back yard or something. Crazy....
People like Buxton are just talking heads being obtuse for the sake of it. I enjoy GBNews but these contrived 'bun fights' are getting a bit tedious now.
How about returning some illegal immigrants.
There is enough of Greece in the UK, as the great Briton Percy Shelley said: "Our laws, our literature, our religion, our arts have their root in Greece." ... we don't need the stolen sculptures too. The Greeks (with the sole exception of the Chinese) exhibit unique cultural, linguistic, and genetic continuity over millenia.
Bought, not stolen.
@@johnwade1095 yeh, no.....ruclips.net/video/PJNE1qzokIQ/видео.html
Where has the Nubians gone or the assyrians. The greeks didn’t highjack and rob others history as the uninformed person accuses the greeks of. Haters gonna hate.
Rafe is to clever for her
Not much of a compliment, 98% of the World is far more intelligent than this uneducated (or wasted education) woman.
No he is not he talks crap the British have of a history of stealing from other countries
Rafe is right; Tonia is letting her Greek heritage go to her head.
Deport her!
Yes Tonia sounds British to me and should spend more time in Greece.
She all right It’s all right 😊
i understand that heritage isnt important to the british we see it daily on the evening news
@@greekreand you speak for all the Brits do you ? And also believe the MSM..oh ok ; )
Don’t worry - David Cameron is on the case , he’s already lost his marbles
Definitely the best comment so far and the most truthful.
Elgin payed the equivalent of £4 million in todays money to the authorities in Greece . He did not steal the marbles .
He paid the authorities of the Ottoman Empire, not Greece.
Elgin payed the Turks. Knowingly buying stolen goods is a crime. Even the British know that.
@@ismoojanen8601irrelevant, the Greeks of the time had left them to rot.
@@ismoojanen8601 Using your logic Alaska should not have been purchased from the Russians.
Rather difficult to follow your "logic", but no. If you want you can ask the money Elgin paid back from Ottoman Empire or it's successor state Turkey@@malcolmstead272
She’s typically outclassed
Look what Isis did in Iraq and Syria and folk moan we got them safe here
I usually agree with Tonia on lots of subjects. But Rafe absolutely destroyed her.
His basic argument is that we wouldn’t have any stuff in the British museum if we had to give everything back. That’s it. Not a compelling argument in my opinion! 😂😂😂
@@jujutrini8412it's a valid argument!
It would show a massive sign of weakness, and with what's going on in the world right now that would be a terrible move! So we HAVE to keep it all forever 😁✌🏻
Tonia is not the right person to argue about the marbles.Someone like Stephen Fry would have put Rafe in his place.The marbles were stolen and had they been a part of Stonehenge,Britain would have kicked up more of a fuss than anyone.More annoying is that Rafe is behaving more English than British.He has so many different bloodlines inside him ,he needs to be told that he is just about British.What an arrogant human being.I hope the Greeks get their stolen artifacts back and Rafe sits down to learn where he actually comes from.British maybe,English and an Elgin,no way near.Elgin would have sold him.
@@pem... It woud show greatness
You can't keep something not yours
He didn't lol
Rafe did nothing but say they were saved even though the ones that remained in Greece are in better condition
Why should people pay money to go and see artefacts belonging to other countries, when the money paid to see them could benefit the countries they’re from.
Tonia sadly lost the argument immediately as she became too over the top, shouty and aggressive. Rafe, gave a dignified and eloquent explanation of why the British should keep them.
Tonia should take a leaf out of Rafe’s book in how to debate in a cordial manner.
As he always does.
Museums are places where objects are exhibited, which are found or come from, the place that surrounds them. We would not think of the Beijing museum exhibiting Beethoven's original musicscores, even if 1,000,000,000 Chinese people visited them or the Nairobi museum exhibiting Viking ships.
In 1800, when Elgin first saw the Acropolis, the Parthenon, and its sculptures, my country was under Islamic occupation. However, the sculptures were there in their high position, from -500 to +1800, i.e., for 2300 years. Even the Islamists did not think to touch them.
Elgin presented false documents to the islamic governor of Athens. While the real document from the leader of the islamists in Constantinople gave him the right to draw them, and to put back in their place some that had fallen down, (strange for islamists, but true), he took huge saws and sawed them!
How about rescue! Is sawing the marble of an ancient temple salvage? His presence there, had nothing to do with salvation, the Scott had no idea about what he was looking, other than free decors, to poke out the eye of his neighbor Duke, and please his wife's vanity. He acted personally, not representing the British Government at any level. The British Museum came on the scene long after the sculptures have already been in Scotland, trying to find a legitimate way for their ownership.
He wanted them to decorate his mansion in Scotland. His wife was in on it. She was together and chose which ones she liked to decorate her gardens. In a letter back to Scotland to her father, she wrote:
"Papa, today one of the Greek transport workers told me that last night he thought he heard one of the female statues crying".
This alone shows the sorrow of the Greeks for the theft that took place in front of their eyes, without them being able to react. This was the burden of islamic occupation we suffered, to fear for our own lives, if we said anything contrary to ruling islamic masters. With the presence of an Indian prime minister, an Arab first minister of Scotland, and a Pakistani mayor of London, soon Britons will come to my sayings of what islamic oppression is all about.
Back to our topic.
The sculptures were transported by ships. One of them sank due to greed, like an overload, and the sculptures remained at the bottom of the sea. When they were finally recovered again and arrived in Scotland, the thief had lost so much money that he had to sell them.
The British museum would not dare today to put on display a painting from a Ukrainian museum stolen by the Russians. In 1815, the Laws regarding antiquities were very different from today's.
If Hitler hypothetically occupied England in 1942 and the crown jewels of England were taken by a Japanese general, and today they were in the Tokyo museum, would the later liberated England ask for them back or not?
And let me not mention the bleach that was thrown back on the sculptures in 1930, to remove the blackness that had settled on them from London's atmospheric pollution, bleach that ate away at the limestone and erased its details from the faces and clothing of the sculptures.
Englishmen! You were a Roman province! I am sure there are thousands of Roman artifacts in your lands, both earlier and later, to display in a truly BRITISH Museum.
Anything else you exhibit that has been transferred in a questionable manner from areas you have dominated, or were dominated by others, contrary to the wishes of the local people, is the product of theft and you must return it.
After all, a visit to Athens costs the same as a visit to London. And just as we do not visit Panama to see Notre Dame, nor Moscow for the Pyramids of Egypt, it is equally crazy to say that we visit London to see the sculptures of the Parthenon that a thief took there.
We, the nation of all 25.000.000 Greeks across our Planet, we have asked them back since 1832, when we got back our liberty from islamic law of occupation. From day one, we asked them back, from Greek governments across the political spectrum, its not a thing of the current government. For once in history, be on the right side of history, acknowledge the right of our demand, and return them back, even with all the damages they suffer the last 200 years. Our majestic Acropolis Museum has pré-réservated places for each one of them.
@@iggo45 you need to get out more. Be on the right side of history ?
If we start doing this every county in the world will have to start giving things back and have claims on things it believes are it's property either historically religiously or culturally, it's a can of worms.
Just keep taking the 100s of millions we pay the Greeks in tourism, if I recall we have a minus export vs imports with the greeks so you have a trade surplus with us too, anything else ?
Stop whining at the British you do very well out of us.
Tonia was losing so she started to philibuster instead.
Britain does not have to worry that its hold over the world will suffer a significant blow if it returns the Parthenon marbles to Greece. On the contrary, it will have a positive affect on Britain's image in the world.
Why so many overbearing women on GB News?
Keir Starmer wants to send them back but probably not politically acceptable to change the law to allow it.
What's it got to do with stormer. If he comes to power he's going to change everything. The foul stench of rotting shit that come's out of his mouth
"rediscovering greek civilization", while ALL of Europe was on Dark Ages Greek civilization was pretty much alive prospering, when Ottomans conquered Byzantium and the eastern Dark Ages started, just let us know scholars from WHERE started spreading the idea of renaissance?
Guy needs to start some diet or something to gain some clarity because all his points are as weak as his eyesight
"We saved them" then how come the other half of the marbles are safe in the Acropolis Museum?
Didn't Britain help prop up Greece through its Billions of £'s we paid the EU for 45 years to subsidise the poorer EU Nations for decades!
Yes. There are 5700 British dead in Greek soil too, and Greece has defaulted on debts to Britain 5 times...
These are NOT just "artifacts". They are fragments of a whole work of immense historical significance that can only be appreciated as a whole, in theor place of origin. The argument about modern Greece not being part of ancient Greece is appallingly ignorant. Having a Greek great grandfather and kinship with a (failed) Greek politician does not automatically give you an understanding of what is going on. I barely understand Greece even though I actually live there and am Greek myself!
They were saved, purchased and will be looked after.
Looked after just like with all the other artifacts that has been reported stolen from the English museum? What a joke!
they were stolen like so many other staff from other cultures and rest assured we don't need you to protect them, we have so many treasures in Greek museums so well taken care of. Create your own culture and give back what you have stolen.
It's difficult to understand the situation when the two guests talked over each other!
Museums are places where objects are exhibited, which are found or come from, the place that surrounds them. We would not think of the Beijing museum exhibiting Beethoven's original musicscores, even if 1,000,000,000 Chinese people visited them or the Nairobi museum exhibiting Viking ships.
In 1800, when Elgin first saw the Acropolis, the Parthenon, and its sculptures, my country was under Islamic occupation. However, the sculptures were there in their high position, from -500 to +1800, i.e., for 2300 years. Even the Islamists did not think to touch them.
Elgin presented false documents to the islamic governor of Athens. While the real document from the leader of the islamists in Constantinople gave him the right to draw them, and to put back in their place some that had fallen down, (strange for islamists, but true), he took huge saws and sawed them!
How about rescue! Is sawing the marble of an ancient temple salvage? His presence there, had nothing to do with salvation, the Scott had no idea about what he was looking, other than free decors, to poke out the eye of his neighbor Duke, and please his wife's vanity. He acted personally, not representing the British Government at any level. The British Museum came on the scene long after the sculptures have already been in Scotland, trying to find a legitimate way for their ownership.
He wanted them to decorate his mansion in Scotland. His wife was in on it. She was together and chose which ones she liked to decorate her gardens. In a letter back to Scotland to her father, she wrote:
"Papa, today one of the Greek transport workers told me that last night he thought he heard one of the female statues crying".
This alone shows the sorrow of the Greeks for the theft that took place in front of their eyes, without them being able to react. This was the burden of islamic occupation we suffered, to fear for our own lives, if we said anything contrary to ruling islamic masters. With the presence of an Indian prime minister, an Arab first minister of Scotland, and a Pakistani mayor of London, soon Britons will come to my sayings of what islamic oppression is all about.
Back to our topic.
The sculptures were transported by ships. One of them sank due to greed, like an overload, and the sculptures remained at the bottom of the sea. When they were finally recovered again and arrived in Scotland, the thief had lost so much money that he had to sell them.
The British museum would not dare today to put on display a painting from a Ukrainian museum stolen by the Russians. In 1815, the Laws regarding antiquities were very different from today's.
If Hitler hypothetically occupied England in 1942 and the crown jewels of England were taken by a Japanese general, and today they were in the Tokyo museum, would the later liberated England ask for them back or not?
And let me not mention the bleach that was thrown back on the sculptures in 1930, to remove the blackness that had settled on them from London's atmospheric pollution, bleach that ate away at the limestone and erased its details from the faces and clothing of the sculptures.
Englishmen! You were a Roman province! I am sure there are thousands of Roman artifacts in your lands, both earlier and later, to display in a truly BRITISH Museum.
Anything else you exhibit that has been transferred in a questionable manner from areas you have dominated, or were dominated by others, contrary to the wishes of the local people, is the product of theft and you must return it.
After all, a visit to Athens costs the same as a visit to London. And just as we do not visit Panama to see Notre Dame, nor Moscow for the Pyramids of Egypt, it is equally crazy to say that we visit London to see the sculptures of the Parthenon that a thief took there.
We, the nation of all 25.000.000 Greeks across our Planet, we have asked them back since 1832, when we got back our liberty from islamic law of occupation. From day one, we asked them back, from Greek governments across the political spectrum, its not a thing of the current government. For once in history, be on the right side of history, acknowledge the right of our demand, and return them back, even with all the damages they suffer the last 200 years. Our majestic Acropolis Museum has pré-réservated places for each one of them.
The elgin marbles were not stolen. Survive the jive has full story of how they were purchased and britain preserved and protected a lot of artifects as their own countries part of britain back then did not know what they were and tbey would have ended up damaged or destroyed. Many things were bought.
@janeslater8004 Some bloke down the pub offered me a cheap ipad. When I asked him where he got it from he said be bought them from someone else that temporarily acquired access to someones house. He even offered me a receipt if I wanted it. Suffice to say, I said no!
@@elbmwand I said yes to him
The greeks never sold the marbles
That’s how it is, Jane. You’re absolutely right.
@@eleri7024 But the government of Greece at the time and for the previous 350 years, the Ottoman Empire, did.
The Half pig half human has no place in historical and cultural debates.
The Parthenon was being used as an ammunition dump by the Ottomans when it was hit by a shell during the Ottoman Venetian war in 1687, and virtually destroyed the place. By the time Elgin removed the friezes between 1800-1803, bits of the Parthenon were being torn off and melted for building lime, or used as aggregate for foundations. That said, I would ask the Greeks to commission and pay for an exact replica to be produced using 3D technology, ( payment up front please, we're talking Greece after all .. ) and then they can pay for the originals to return to Athens .....
@rawschri "Torn off"? Then how come the remainder of the frieze survives and is displayed in the Acropolis museum today? Some small bits may have been taken and used as building materials but not from the frieze so that argument is a non argument.
They took the dust of the Parthenon after Elgin plundered the most important stuff and build Acropolis again, as you claim. By the way have you ever been to Acropolis of Athens?
Still doesn’t excuse not giving them back
''Payment up front pleaase, we're talking about Greece after all''. You probably know nothing about British finacial past and present. Is not neccessary to be arrogant. By the way, Elguin, British Goverment or you, have paid nothing for Parthenon Marbles. You can admit that without the treasures of other countries you have nothing for your British museum. This is you biggest problem. But, you can display in your museum the BigBen the Red Telephone Boxes and the Harrods.
is time to visit Greece and Parthenon and learn a few things about history democracy and civilization. You need it.
Elgin bought them from the then legal government, THEY WERE NOT STOLEN
@@paulrudiger2552
Honestly where did that woman come from? Ottoman Empire by right of conquest own those marbles and they gave permission for the marbles to be taken away because they do not value it. Greek should be moving away from this conversation instead of trying to bring up conflicts where there is none. This is why war was fought in the past when nations leaders refused to accept the agreement of their predecessors. The British own some land in France. So should dey tell France to give them the land back too. Honestly the Greek prime minister is petty
💯💯
You mean England through the royalty once owned land in France, Great Britain and England today own no French land at all.
@@rightray7463you are proud of stolen artefacts? Britain should show their own historic artifacts... Oh wait...
We want all the aid we sent to Greece to keep them afloat!
@@rollerrollerichson6258 PROVE that they are STOLEN. The Legal Owner SOLD them and accepted payment from Lord Elgin. Elgin then sold them to the British Museum. Both sales were legal at the time. Laws cannot be imposed retrospectively so the Greek government is making False Representations in asking for something they have no legal ownership of.
women get so emotional
Greece was occupied it was conquered and the land belonged to the Turks for that period of time.
buying the elgin marbles and bringing them to the British museum did more good for Greece in terms of inspiring a generation of artists and architects and creating interest that lead to tourism than any EU bail out ever did.
They continue to do more good for Greece being in the UK than any short term political gain that the current government can expect to achieve with this unsightly tantrum.
Thats what the slave owners said when they brought slaves
@@run2cat4run No , surely that what black Africans told the fellow black Africans (that they had rounded up and captured ) when selling them on to the trans Atlantic traders .
@@run2cat4run The principal difference here is that the slaves are not considered property, at least, not any more, while, as i understand it, the Elgin marbles were purchased from the land owner legitimately.
Keep projecting British excuses. They belong in Greece period!
Firstly, the outdated "legality" argument is pretty much on its last legs given the relatively recent discovery that the claimed "firman" (contract) appears to have never existed.
Indeed the Turkish authorities who have access to the original ottoman archives have stated that no documentary evidence exists. This aside, there is absolutely no moral justification for the stolen sculptures to not be returned. A) It's well documented that the British have damaged the sculptures in a variety of ways. B) the sculptures that remain in Greece (in their state of the art museum) are in better condition than those in London. C) the Greeks have been campaigning for over 200 years for the sculptures to be returned. D) even before winning their war of independence, under oppression, they still sought to protect the sculptures from the actions of their occupiers... an excellent example described by Stephen Fry:
ruclips.net/video/057bQ0xnjfQ/видео.html
The majority of the British public agree that they should be returned to Greece.
Tonia is Greek Cypriot. She is NOT objective. She needs to be QUIET.
I knew it! This should be about collaborative rebuilding of art and shared history but what is really about is this cheap Greek nationalist point scoring against the Turks.
Give back the Dinosaurs!🐉😂😂
who is the noisy irrational woman?
They've been in the British Museum for decades, so why now. It's just another pathetic excuse to try and destroy the British way of life and its people.
For God's sakes Gb news find something more important .
Prince Philip was Greek and King Charles father, so what is the problem, the Greeks own the marbles
My marbles have gone… It’s this freezing weather.
Rafe is a legend. Tonya looks like a 450 year old vampire 😂
That is as maybe. But I still would, wouldn't you?
@@garypowell1540 Without question 😂
@@foamigeyou 2 have ended me🤣🤣
@@vikingfrog7204 glad we could entertain 😂
Your comment says a lot about you.
The Marbles are parts of the Parthenon and were stolen ,they belong to Greece and must be returned
Someone has her knickers in a knot, methinks. lol
yes the empire stole them, had we not the Turks would have destroyed them, but its about time Greece can have them back, because if the new Ottoman empire tries it again Ruisi will have Greeks back.
The Parthenon sculptures, to call them by their real name , were stolen . One can argue about the continuity of the Greek world , from ancient Greece to modern Greece , and never reach a conclusion. One thing is for sure though ,they are not a product of British culture and civilization. The modern Greeks are the closest to being the heirs of these sculptures.
I don't think so. The ancient Greeks wouldn't have been trampled by the Ottomans. It took the British to kick the Ottomans out. You'll see where this leads us.
whats it got to do with her
Which bit of "they were paid for" doesn't she get? But it's all Greek to me. ;-)
Actually, the Marbles may be safer in Greece. No climate insanities to throw paint or whatnot on them. And they would be safe from any Muslim extremists wanting to destroy graven images in a Muslim country like London.
Britain saved Greece's backside in WW2 ....... Ingrates . 🏴
My father was there during and post war in the Royal Navy . He said there were so many factions fighting each other you could not trust who was who . 🏴
Save what. Germans kicked 1940 your army out of the Greece as from Belgium, France and Norway?
@@ismoojanen8601 And who kicked them out ? Do your homework Dumbo . 💪🏴
@@ismoojanen8601 My father was there , was your's....... Nah , didn't think so ! 💪🏴
Respect to your father. My father was just child at the time of the WW2, but his older brother fight 4 years and two wars against to Red Army. However he and his comrades hold the line, otherwise I would not be able to write this.@@johnbowkett80
What a rude woman!
He means to say the worlds STOLEN treasures.
They are part of a hugely precious world monument in a country that shaped the human race. They need to go home. To view them in a different place to Athens means nothing.
They should be given back if the Greeks took half of Stonehenge we would want it back …..sunak was bang out of order over this , man is no prime minister
saying that modern Greece is the same as ancient Greece is like claiming that the Visigoths and Spanish are the same or Boudica's Celts and the modern British are identical. its ridiculous
Absolutely right, or that the Etruscans and Italians are one and the same people...
It doesn’t matter anyway.
So you wouldn't have a problem if we stole Stonehenge and stored it in a museum in Greece? While we're knicking Stonehenge we can also take some artifacts from the Roman Baths at Bath since those races have no connection to the modern day British!
@@digenesakritas1107 We sold the Americans London bridge and no one is asking for it back. If the Greeks had bought Stonehenge from the Romans in order to save and preserve them, then they would have every right to store the circle in a museum in Athens as a legitimately purchased artifact.
Well fact is that a Greek born in 2003 would be able to communicate with a Greek born in 200 BC and is able to understand roughly what a text written in 200 BC is talking about, while a Spaniard born in 2003 would be pretty unable to converse with a Visigoth from 2000 years ago.
So while of course Greeks today have a different religion to the one they had back when the Parthenon was built and have adapted to the changes that the progress of science has brought, they have still kept certain traits in their mentality, society structure, customs and view of the world.
As a German that has been living in Greece for 20 years I'm always surprised about how little people actually know about Greece, the culture and the history.
Greece lost. France lost.
To the victor the spoils.
She mentioned that the Greeks were attacked by the Ottoman Empire, but (curiously) doesn’t way who they actually were.
Well then take everything to London & Paris. Seriously, take everything there form the whole world so more people can see them and study them. Is he serious? Absolutely discussed by his arguments. No logic, no ethic, nothing at all. She gave perfect examples in one's he could not answer.
Offer to sell the items back to Greece if they want them so badly. They have hugely increased in value, cash in!
Greeks today are mostly arab descended, when the marbles were created they werent tho, they resisted all that cos they wanted to stay as they were, in ancient greece people like peter andre were classed as "black" the people on the marbles are "white" in the traditional european sense imo.
How clueless you are! Study history my friend!
Then, the Spanish should give back all the gold & silver they stole from the Aztecs. The Romans & Vikings should give back all they stole from the British!
@@margaretcunningham9092 And Britain should give back the trillions it looted from India and China 😂
You are clueless and ignorant. Modern greeks have pre-Homeric DNA and have no arabic traces on their genetics, probably you are confused with the case of Egypt. Moreover the marbles used to be painted with colorful compinations. You have no idea about the same culture you are pretending to belong.
There is a case to give Greece back the marbles.
But the public must be educated in the reasons why, not this unhinged woman's belief that they were hacked off the wall and stolen.
If anything the British museum has done a outstanding duty to humanity in preservation and aloud many to see them and research them this alone should be acknowledged by the woman.
There were various reasons why the British held onto the marbles for such a long period.
Not only was it the Ottoman occupation that threatened there existence but it was also understood that natural erosion was taking its toll, There were subsequent world wars , and a Greek fascist state in power during these periods, there was poverty and it was understood by many that the marbles could not be guaranteed safety. There is a case to return them but this woman is completely wrong in her assessment.And only illustrates the people who love to live in the UK but are never proud or happy to be British and invent a narrative to destroy our culture.
The outdated "legality" argument is pretty much on its last legs given the relatively recent discovery that the claimed "firman" (contract) appears to have never existed. The Turkish authorities who have access to the original ottoman archives have stated that no documentary evidence exists. This aside, there is absolutely no moral justification for the stolen sculptures to not be returned. A) It's well documented that the British have damaged the sculptures in a variety of ways. B) the sculptures that remain in Greece (in their state of the art museum) are in better condition than those in London. C) the Greeks have been campaigning for over 200 years for the sculptures to be returned. D) even before winning their war of independence, under oppression, they still sought to protect the sculptures from the actions of their occupiers... an excellent example described by Stephen Fry:
ruclips.net/video/057bQ0xnjfQ/видео.html
E) the Greeks fiercly defended their artifacts during both world wars (do your own research), just as they fiercly defended their jewish neighbours, risking their lives in both cases (see e.g. the story of Zakynthos Island). "Heroes Fight Like Greeks" - Winston Churchill.
The majority of the British public agree that they should be returned to Greece.
you hold on them because you are cosplaying the Greco-Romans. Only by accepting your germanic past you can let go of this childish attachment to our culture.
@@Vasanistis12 That one was straight to the point.Ouch.
I remember losing my favourite marbles when I was about seven, I looked a bit glum at the dinner table and told my big brother. After tea he went to the boy three doors up a couple of years older than me and came back with a Quality Street tin full of marbles easy. I don't know the politics involved but they worked.
Yes they were stolen,give them back to Greece.
They belong to Africa anyway 😂 along with the creation and invention of everything of culture and science 😂
Not stolen, and as usual, if your points not excepted or agreed with,,,,,,,, start shouting !
Museums are places where objects are exhibited, which are found or come from, the place that surrounds them. We would not think of the Beijing museum exhibiting Beethoven's original musicscores, even if 1,000,000,000 Chinese people visited them or the Nairobi museum exhibiting Viking ships.
In 1800, when Elgin first saw the Acropolis, the Parthenon, and its sculptures, my country was under Islamic occupation. However, the sculptures were there in their high position, from -500 to +1800, i.e., for 2300 years. Even the Islamists did not think to touch them.
Elgin presented false documents to the islamic governor of Athens. While the real document from the leader of the islamists in Constantinople gave him the right to draw them, and to put back in their place some that had fallen down, (strange for islamists, but true), he took huge saws and sawed them!
How about rescue! Is sawing the marble of an ancient temple salvage? His presence there, had nothing to do with salvation, the Scott had no idea about what he was looking, other than free decors, to poke out the eye of his neighbor Duke, and please his wife's vanity. He acted personally, not representing the British Government at any level. The British Museum came on the scene long after the sculptures have already been in Scotland, trying to find a legitimate way for their ownership.
He wanted them to decorate his mansion in Scotland. His wife was in on it. She was together and chose which ones she liked to decorate her gardens. In a letter back to Scotland to her father, she wrote:
"Papa, today one of the Greek transport workers told me that last night he thought he heard one of the female statues crying".
This alone shows the sorrow of the Greeks for the theft that took place in front of their eyes, without them being able to react. This was the burden of islamic occupation we suffered, to fear for our own lives, if we said anything contrary to ruling islamic masters. With the presence of an Indian prime minister, an Arab first minister of Scotland, and a Pakistani mayor of London, soon Britons will come to my sayings of what islamic oppression is all about.
Back to our topic.
The sculptures were transported by ships. One of them sank due to greed, like an overload, and the sculptures remained at the bottom of the sea. When they were finally recovered again and arrived in Scotland, the thief had lost so much money that he had to sell them.
The British museum would not dare today to put on display a painting from a Ukrainian museum stolen by the Russians. In 1815, the Laws regarding antiquities were very different from today's.
If Hitler hypothetically occupied England in 1942 and the crown jewels of England were taken by a Japanese general, and today they were in the Tokyo museum, would the later liberated England ask for them back or not?
And let me not mention the bleach that was thrown back on the sculptures in 1930, to remove the blackness that had settled on them from London's atmospheric pollution, bleach that ate away at the limestone and erased its details from the faces and clothing of the sculptures.
Englishmen! You were a Roman province! I am sure there are thousands of Roman artifacts in your lands, both earlier and later, to display in a truly BRITISH Museum.
Anything else you exhibit that has been transferred in a questionable manner from areas you have dominated, or were dominated by others, contrary to the wishes of the local people, is the product of theft and you must return it.
After all, a visit to Athens costs the same as a visit to London. And just as we do not visit Panama to see Notre Dame, nor Moscow for the Pyramids of Egypt, it is equally crazy to say that we visit London to see the sculptures of the Parthenon that a thief took there.
We, the nation of all 25.000.000 Greeks across our Planet, we have asked them back since 1832, when we got back our liberty from islamic law of occupation. From day one, we asked them back, from Greek governments across the political spectrum, its not a thing of the current government. For once in history, be on the right side of history, acknowledge the right of our demand, and return them back, even with all the damages they suffer the last 200 years. Our majestic Acropolis Museum has pré-réservated places for each one of them.
Foreigners not allowed here but there artifacts are ok to be here plus the cheek of the guy saying no would go to Athens to see them so full of himself so imperialistic
Poor misguided lady. She needs a sit down and a biscuit.
Museums are places where objects are exhibited, which are found or come from, the place that surrounds them. We would not think of the Beijing museum exhibiting Beethoven's original musicscores, even if 1,000,000,000 Chinese people visited them or the Nairobi museum exhibiting Viking ships.
In 1800, when Elgin first saw the Acropolis, the Parthenon, and its sculptures, my country was under Islamic occupation. However, the sculptures were there in their high position, from -500 to +1800, i.e., for 2300 years. Even the Islamists did not think to touch them.
Elgin presented false documents to the islamic governor of Athens. While the real document from the leader of the islamists in Constantinople gave him the right to draw them, and to put back in their place some that had fallen down, (strange for islamists, but true), he took huge saws and sawed them!
How about rescue! Is sawing the marble of an ancient temple salvage? His presence there, had nothing to do with salvation, the Scott had no idea about what he was looking, other than free decors, to poke out the eye of his neighbor Duke, and please his wife's vanity. He acted personally, not representing the British Government at any level. The British Museum came on the scene long after the sculptures have already been in Scotland, trying to find a legitimate way for their ownership.
He wanted them to decorate his mansion in Scotland. His wife was in on it. She was together and chose which ones she liked to decorate her gardens. In a letter back to Scotland to her father, she wrote:
"Papa, today one of the Greek transport workers told me that last night he thought he heard one of the female statues crying".
This alone shows the sorrow of the Greeks for the theft that took place in front of their eyes, without them being able to react. This was the burden of islamic occupation we suffered, to fear for our own lives, if we said anything contrary to ruling islamic masters. With the presence of an Indian prime minister, an Arab first minister of Scotland, and a Pakistani mayor of London, soon Britons will come to my sayings of what islamic oppression is all about.
Back to our topic.
The sculptures were transported by ships. One of them sank due to greed, like an overload, and the sculptures remained at the bottom of the sea. When they were finally recovered again and arrived in Scotland, the thief had lost so much money that he had to sell them.
The British museum would not dare today to put on display a painting from a Ukrainian museum stolen by the Russians. In 1815, the Laws regarding antiquities were very different from today's.
If Hitler hypothetically occupied England in 1942 and the crown jewels of England were taken by a Japanese general, and today they were in the Tokyo museum, would the later liberated England ask for them back or not?
And let me not mention the bleach that was thrown back on the sculptures in 1930, to remove the blackness that had settled on them from London's atmospheric pollution, bleach that ate away at the limestone and erased its details from the faces and clothing of the sculptures.
Englishmen! You were a Roman province! I am sure there are thousands of Roman artifacts in your lands, both earlier and later, to display in a truly BRITISH Museum.
Anything else you exhibit that has been transferred in a questionable manner from areas you have dominated, or were dominated by others, contrary to the wishes of the local people, is the product of theft and you must return it.
After all, a visit to Athens costs the same as a visit to London. And just as we do not visit Panama to see Notre Dame, nor Moscow for the Pyramids of Egypt, it is equally crazy to say that we visit London to see the sculptures of the Parthenon that a thief took there.
We, the nation of all 25.000.000 Greeks across our Planet, we have asked them back since 1832, when we got back our liberty from islamic law of occupation. From day one, we asked them back, from Greek governments across the political spectrum, its not a thing of the current government. For once in history, be on the right side of history, acknowledge the right of our demand, and return them back, even with all the damages they suffer the last 200 years. Our majestic Acropolis Museum has pré-réservated places for each one of them.
@iggo45 Nope. The Ottomans were shooting at them as you well know.
Keep your posts short please.
On subjects of this level, short answers are impossible due to the complexity of the matter, the need to present facts down from the beginning, and the intentions each party had to play.
Isolated phrases like the museum bought them legally, or the islamists shoot them, are not a representation of all the drama.
That's why I started with islamic occupation, vanity of a Scottish couple, unfairness on locals, bankrupcy of the thieve, manipulation of legality of purchase act, by the British museum, and chlorine restoration.
Come on. I learned that Britons are all about warm discussions over marmelade cookies and a cup of tea. What's wrong with long discussions ? Be my guest, gratis for anything, on your next pilgrimage to our lands, and we'll have even longer and deeper chats you and me, I only assure you !
Merry Christmas 🎅 🎄 ❤️
Théy are ours,..,, ....
Back to the kitchen, Tonia.
Is it just me or has the world lost its marbles
Elgin paid for the Marbles £100,000 at the time.
The Brit’s payed for them because Elgin realized they needed to be saved.!!
His action and the actions of the British museum damaged the sculptures furthermore...
Museums are places where objects are exhibited, which are found or come from, the place that surrounds them. We would not think of the Beijing museum exhibiting Beethoven's original musicscores, even if 1,000,000,000 Chinese people visited them or the Nairobi museum exhibiting Viking ships.
In 1800, when Elgin first saw the Acropolis, the Parthenon, and its sculptures, my country was under Islamic occupation. However, the sculptures were there in their high position, from -500 to +1800, i.e., for 2300 years. Even the Islamists did not think to touch them.
Elgin presented false documents to the islamic governor of Athens. While the real document from the leader of the islamists in Constantinople gave him the right to draw them, and to put back in their place some that had fallen down, (strange for islamists, but true), he took huge saws and sawed them!
How about rescue! Is sawing the marble of an ancient temple salvage? His presence there, had nothing to do with salvation, the Scott had no idea about what he was looking, other than free decors, to poke out the eye of his neighbor Duke, and please his wife's vanity. He acted personally, not representing the British Government at any level. The British Museum came on the scene long after the sculptures have already been in Scotland, trying to find a legitimate way for their ownership.
He wanted them to decorate his mansion in Scotland. His wife was in on it. She was together and chose which ones she liked to decorate her gardens. In a letter back to Scotland to her father, she wrote:
"Papa, today one of the Greek transport workers told me that last night he thought he heard one of the female statues crying".
This alone shows the sorrow of the Greeks for the theft that took place in front of their eyes, without them being able to react. This was the burden of islamic occupation we suffered, to fear for our own lives, if we said anything contrary to ruling islamic masters. With the presence of an Indian prime minister, an Arab first minister of Scotland, and a Pakistani mayor of London, soon Britons will come to my sayings of what islamic oppression is all about.
Back to our topic.
The sculptures were transported by ships. One of them sank due to greed, like an overload, and the sculptures remained at the bottom of the sea. When they were finally recovered again and arrived in Scotland, the thief had lost so much money that he had to sell them.
The British museum would not dare today to put on display a painting from a Ukrainian museum stolen by the Russians. In 1815, the Laws regarding antiquities were very different from today's.
If Hitler hypothetically occupied England in 1942 and the crown jewels of England were taken by a Japanese general, and today they were in the Tokyo museum, would the later liberated England ask for them back or not?
And let me not mention the bleach that was thrown back on the sculptures in 1930, to remove the blackness that had settled on them from London's atmospheric pollution, bleach that ate away at the limestone and erased its details from the faces and clothing of the sculptures.
Englishmen! You were a Roman province! I am sure there are thousands of Roman artifacts in your lands, both earlier and later, to display in a truly BRITISH Museum.
Anything else you exhibit that has been transferred in a questionable manner from areas you have dominated, or were dominated by others, contrary to the wishes of the local people, is the product of theft and you must return it.
After all, a visit to Athens costs the same as a visit to London. And just as we do not visit Panama to see Notre Dame, nor Moscow for the Pyramids of Egypt, it is equally crazy to say that we visit London to see the sculptures of the Parthenon that a thief took there.
We, the nation of all 25.000.000 Greeks across our Planet, we have asked them back since 1832, when we got back our liberty from islamic law of occupation. From day one, we asked them back, from Greek governments across the political spectrum, its not a thing of the current government. For once in history, be on the right side of history, acknowledge the right of our demand, and return them back, even with all the damages they suffer the last 200 years. Our majestic Acropolis Museum has pré-réservated places for each one of them.
i believe we should give all his crap back. when its gone its gone .who gives a toss.
Why are you bringing on a celebrity chef to debate the Elgin Marbles with a pukka historian ?
I am not expert of Parthenon marbles, but maybe there is somewhere contract which proof that Elgin paid for the Ottoman Empire or just bribe some Ottoman official. In both cases he stole the Artwork from building and country they belongs
If the French had sold the top of the Eiffel tower it would have been ther loss. The same applies to the Elgin marbles, which were effectively scrapped, unlike the Eiffel Tower.
p.s. The Athenic "democracy" would not have allowed her to have an opinion.
She didn't say anything like that. But you weren't listening. She said 'if the Nazis had sold the top of the Eiffel tower'. I know that's hard for you to understand but if you really, really try to get someone to help you, you might begin to understand.
@@noelpucarua2843 I am aware that I did not repeat what she said, but being part of an Empire for around 4 centuries as Greece was is a subtly different matter from being split in two and partly under temporary control of another country. Personally I do not mind where they are if they are kept in good condition, which seems unlikely if they had still been in Greece for the last 200 years. Sue the Turks first.
It's not Elgins
And it's not marlbes
Ok
@@petegarnett7731So, you say it's different because the Third Reich didn't work out. Otherwise you'd be fine with Nazis selling off the top of the Eiffel Tower, is that it?
British museum. we protect this artifact to not be destroyed.
hiatorians: you are the ones that destroyed them
British museum: we don't talk about who is the one destroying.
also fun fact. did you know the glass roof about the Parthenon marbles is broken/breaking. it has dead mouses(can't remember the plural) and has their shit on top. that's how British museum show its respect.
fun fact. 2000+ artifacts have been stolen from the super elite guard British museum in the last few years.
They only want them now because they are worth a bit.
The marbles have not been stolen .Elgin is on Scotland.
Museums are places where objects are exhibited, which are found or come from, the place that surrounds them. We would not think of the Beijing museum exhibiting Beethoven's original musicscores, even if 1,000,000,000 Chinese people visited them or the Nairobi museum exhibiting Viking ships.
In 1800, when Elgin first saw the Acropolis, the Parthenon, and its sculptures, my country was under Islamic occupation. However, the sculptures were there in their high position, from -500 to +1800, i.e., for 2300 years. Even the Islamists did not think to touch them.
Elgin presented false documents to the islamic governor of Athens. While the real document from the leader of the islamists in Constantinople gave him the right to draw them, and to put back in their place some that had fallen down, (strange for islamists, but true), he took huge saws and sawed them!
How about rescue! Is sawing the marble of an ancient temple salvage? His presence there, had nothing to do with salvation, the Scott had no idea about what he was looking, other than free decors, to poke out the eye of his neighbor Duke, and please his wife's vanity. He acted personally, not representing the British Government at any level. The British Museum came on the scene long after the sculptures have already been in Scotland, trying to find a legitimate way for their ownership.
He wanted them to decorate his mansion in Scotland. His wife was in on it. She was together and chose which ones she liked to decorate her gardens. In a letter back to Scotland to her father, she wrote:
"Papa, today one of the Greek transport workers told me that last night he thought he heard one of the female statues crying".
This alone shows the sorrow of the Greeks for the theft that took place in front of their eyes, without them being able to react. This was the burden of islamic occupation we suffered, to fear for our own lives, if we said anything contrary to ruling islamic masters. With the presence of an Indian prime minister, an Arab first minister of Scotland, and a Pakistani mayor of London, soon Britons will come to my sayings of what islamic oppression is all about.
Back to our topic.
The sculptures were transported by ships. One of them sank due to greed, like an overload, and the sculptures remained at the bottom of the sea. When they were finally recovered again and arrived in Scotland, the thief had lost so much money that he had to sell them.
The British museum would not dare today to put on display a painting from a Ukrainian museum stolen by the Russians. In 1815, the Laws regarding antiquities were very different from today's.
If Hitler hypothetically occupied England in 1942 and the crown jewels of England were taken by a Japanese general, and today they were in the Tokyo museum, would the later liberated England ask for them back or not?
And let me not mention the bleach that was thrown back on the sculptures in 1930, to remove the blackness that had settled on them from London's atmospheric pollution, bleach that ate away at the limestone and erased its details from the faces and clothing of the sculptures.
Englishmen! You were a Roman province! I am sure there are thousands of Roman artifacts in your lands, both earlier and later, to display in a truly BRITISH Museum.
Anything else you exhibit that has been transferred in a questionable manner from areas you have dominated, or were dominated by others, contrary to the wishes of the local people, is the product of theft and you must return it.
After all, a visit to Athens costs the same as a visit to London. And just as we do not visit Panama to see Notre Dame, nor Moscow for the Pyramids of Egypt, it is equally crazy to say that we visit London to see the sculptures of the Parthenon that a thief took there.
We, the nation of all 25.000.000 Greeks across our Planet, we have asked them back since 1832, when we got back our liberty from islamic law of occupation. From day one, we asked them back, from Greek governments across the political spectrum, its not a thing of the current government. For once in history, be on the right side of history, acknowledge the right of our demand, and return them back, even with all the damages they suffer the last 200 years. Our majestic Acropolis Museum has pré-réservated places for each one of them.
emotion v logic
The lady well said it they were stolen this guy although has greek roots for me is a supporter of the system. And i would like not to refer again even the word Greece.
What i find is the obvious hatred of the british and the lack of gratitude for all thst we have done for good or bad, everything that we have given to the world. Tha sacrifices that we have made, financially and physically we ended slavery and hitler, yes we did bad things but the good far outweighs the bad, however we receive no gratitude just pure hatred and ingratitude, i believe people would dearly like to see the end of our great union, this makes me so sad, we are amongst the first to aid any other nation, and i am not referring to our political establishment they are only interested in money,
Sorry to ruin it for you pal, but as we speak you are occupying EU's sovereign soil at Cyprus. Apart from helping us win the communists in Athens at 44' (which you have done to serve your own agenda) you have just brought trouble to us.
Conspired with the French to assasinate our Prime Minister and imposed a Babarian King in Greece.
Occupied Cyprus.
Damaged and cultuarly appopriated the Parthenon.
Backstabed as during the Greco-Turkish war of 1921.
And now the Torries want to sell fighting jets to Erdogan. Dont pretent to be our friends, you arent.
@vasanistis12
You have clearly made my point for me, neither I nor any member ofthe British public are occupying any other country,
You obviously have an issue with Cyprus, you are welcome to enlighten me, but as I stated previously the British Parliament are the ones that invade and oppress, you are going back in history and trying to lay the blame at the feet of the british people, who for decades have been fed lies and propaganda, though I feel we are finally seeing the light, thanks for the acknowledgement for the help, governments always divide and conquer, then the people perpetuate the division and hatred,
@@StephenFirth-ui7oz Each nation is responsible for its ruling elite. It would have been easy for me to claim that the Greek people are not responsible for the catastrophic economical crisis of 2008, that we were misled by our politicians, but this would have been only a partial truth. Im not going back to history, I would be the last one to accuse the son for the sins of the father, but after spending 2 years on the british isle already, all I have seen is either demoralized people that support HAMAS or people how are lowkey proud about stealing our marbles. For the past 60 years till NOW the UK has gained control of Cypriot land, using it to host its 2 military bases. Give the marbles back, leave Cyprus and then we can start discussing on how we can built up our friendship again.
Again, I believe you are wrong, you make demands before negotiations, do you really believe we have a choice in who rules us, or that they resources wishes, I may be wrong but the marbles were legally purchased, again not by the public
@@StephenFirth-ui7oz They were bought from Elgin, but Elgin himself stole them from the Parthenon.
I’m with Rafe not the cook
The argument that they were saved is ridiculous... Like the proponents of this idea. The rest of the Parthenon is still standing, the other Caryatides are still standing. They did not need "rescuing". Not to mention all the other artifacts that were "saved" and on display in your precious museum, just to be sold online without the authorities even noticing that fact! Learn your facts, please. Dont insult the Greeks and the rest of civilised mankind with your arguments. Ps: why dont you donate the entire museum display to Paris since this is the city where most tourists visit, so that they could see all the artifacts of the world in one place and stop visiting other countries? It will save a lot of money to the people who like traveling and visiting museums. Now that s an idea!
Peter Andre looking on wondering what the fuss is all about. Marbles eh Peter!!
We helped bail Greece out during their financial crash we're even
She sounds like a spoilt little kid 😂😂
his not part Greek his just a british museum puppet