Why are the PARTHENON MARBLES so controversial? | History of the Elgin Marbles at the British Museum
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- Опубликовано: 14 дек 2023
- Should Britain return the PARTHENON MARBLES to Greece? In this week’s video from History Calling we look at the history of the Elgin Marbles (as they are also called) from antiquity to the present day and ask why are the Parthenon Marbles so controversial and were the Parthenon Marbles stolen or saved?
First though, what are the Parthenon sculptures? Answer; they are a collection of friezes, metopes (meaning sculpted reliefs) and statutes depicting creatures from classical mythology and a long procession of human beings. The history of the Parthenon Marbles dates to the 5th century BC when they were first built as part of the Parthenon temple on the Acropolis in Greece, designed to honour the goddess Athena. Over half the Marbles have since been destroyed due to fires, deliberate destruction and looting and of the half that remain, around 50% are in the British Museum and 50% remain in Greece, with a few fragments in other museums including the Louvre in Paris. The story of how the British Museum acquired its share though is complex and contested and has led many to ask, were the Parthenon Marbles stolen, or saved for posterity?
The Marbles now in England were sent there by Thomas Bruce, 7th Earl of Elgin in the early 1800s, having been taken from the Parthenon, supposedly with the permission of the Ottoman Empire which was then in control of Greece. They were determined to have been acquired legally by a UK Parliamentary Select Committee and in 1816 the British Museum bought them for £35,000 and put them on display.
By the start of the 1830s Greece had acquired its independence and from the 1980s onwards there have been increasingly loud calls from their government and citizens to return the Marbles to their place of origin, making them highly contested objects. The British Museum has refused these calls, stating that the Marbles were brought to England and to that institution legally and that they are not allowed, under the British Museum Act of 1963 to deaccession any of their holdings except under very rare and limited circumstances, which do not apply in this case. They have suggested loans to a Greek museum, but this solution has been refused as Greek authorities do not recognise British ownership of the artefacts. The debate over this contested history continues.
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LEARN MORE:
Catherine Titi, The Parthenon Marbles and International Law (Springer, 2023). This book is available on Amazon but is very expensive. I recommend getting it through a library instead.
British Museum’s statements on the Parthenon marbles
www.britishmuseum.org/about-u...
AND
www.britishmuseum.org/about-u...
Report from the Select Committee of the House of Common on the Earl of Elgin’s collection of sculptured marbles …(1816)
babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...
Parthenon Marbles debate between academics, MPs and actor/presenter Stephen Fry
• Send them back: The Pa...
British Museum’s Act (1963)
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Let me know below if you think the Marbles should go back to Greece and remember to check out my Patreon at www.patreon.com/historycalling and my Amazon storefront at www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling
They should definitely go back to Greece, EVERYTHING snatched from other countries/cultures should be returned
The “it was totally legal” argument is nonsense, utter nonsense-getting legal approval from your corrupt/colonial system for being an egregious imperialist . . . Sure . . .
It’s such a travesty that the British Museum is acting like anything other than the Nazi’s who pillaged and stole culturally significant artifacts and art - they don’t have a moral leg to stand on and I think more pressure should be put on them and the British monarchy to send back some of their jewels
Also they need to fully relinquish the Stone of Scone to Scotland - this attitude of “well violence was ok back then so we’re going to keep it until you pull it out of our dead white racists hands” is SUCH AN EMBARRASSMENT
While I do think they should go back to Greece, when it comes to the Stone of Scone that has gone back to Scotland. It only comes back to England for coronations which I actually think is quite a nice way of making those ceremonies more inclusive of Scotland, though of course you are free to disagree with me on that. I also don't think it's fair to say that the issue around the Stone was anything to do with racism. Scotland is part of the UK and both Scotland and England are made up primarily of white people. I can't see how racism comes into it. The current royals are even descended from the Scottish Stuarts and the Queen Mother was Scottish.
I look forward to seeing the bits of Acropolis sitting around various parts of the globe put back into their place on the Acropolis in Greece. Since it's the right thing to do, however, I doubt it will ever happen. I was enjoying your narrative but had to stop the video because all the horizontal and vertical scrolling of the camera was making me motion sick. Hope you have a great weekend!
They should be returned to Greece. They were stolen.
I had no opinion previously, cos I knew I was completely ignorant, but it does sound exceptionally dodgy- the British government just taking what it wanted, then passing _their own laws_ to make the theft "legal". I don't think that's how it should work! None of the arguments to keep them in the UK really hold up, so I'd say they should probably go back.
I'd always known them as the "Elgin Marbles", but with no idea where the name came from, so I was very interested to find out, & I'll stop calling them by the name of the guy who stole them. I'd fight anyone who called the Stone of Scone "the Edward I Stone", & I'm not even Scottish, so I'm not going to insult the Greek people like that.
I have visited Athens and the acropolis a number of times now, first in 1974 ad then again in 2012, 2018. I mention that time line because back in 1974 the acropolis was largely open to the visitors with access to the monuments and tickets purchased from a small timber hut. Back then I would suggest that the marbles were best displayed in the British Museum. However since then there has been much work carried out by the Greeks as they seek to restore much of the Parthenon and on my last visit I was able to visit the new Museum described in this video. There you can view many of the works saved from the Acropolis whilst being able to look across and see original place where these marble carvings once stood. My attitude like the narrators, has now changed and in my view there is a clearly appropriate place to house the Elgin Marbles. It is worth pointing out that at the Acropolis Museum there is a scaled down sculpture of both end pediments east ad west, these give a complete image of how the pediments would have appeared. Would it not be possible for replications to be original marbles to be provided for the British Museum whilst the originals could be returned to the New Acropolis Museum in Athens where it overlooks the monuments that comprise the sacred Athenian sanktury.
You make sense and you appear to be an honest person. Thank you.
I agree with you. With today’s technology many relics can be recreated and the originals returned to the rightful owners especially if they have museums, etc., to display them.
Yes, like the casts in the V&A Museum
Very expensive and for sure bad for the status of the exponents as history calling mentioned. Never steal in the first place and not try to find any justifications!
New museum in Greece can now safely house Marbles of Pidias.Time to send them home to Athens.
I’m an archaeologist- they’re stolen. Even ignoring the sketchiness of translation of a translation documentation, that permit didn’t give Elgin permission to remove materials from the site, let alone from the building itself.
I work in Pompeii- out permits say we’re allowed to excavate in particular locations, meaning we can dig and move materials around unimpeded. This does NOT mean we’re allowed to remove materials from the site or the country; it’s implicitly understood that that would be BAD, and definitely not covered by our permits. The fact that Elgin used that kind of logic to justify his theft shows how underhanded his intentions were.
I ended coming to that conclusion too.
Agreed. 🥂 Return the hoarded loot.
💜💜💜
Agreed. The need to be repatriated, like so many other items. The argument the British Museum makes for keeping the Marbles is archaic. What ever they think or thought was agreed upon at the time, does not matter and it does not make it right.
I don’t think anyone truly believes anything other than they were stolen
Beautifully presented! You have outdone yourself with this meticulous examination of the issue, and the fact that you changed your own opinion in the course of studying it. That's the sign of a truly objective scholar! From the first time I saw them, I have always felt the Museum's claim that it alone could take proper care of the marbles was completely bogus. After visiting some gorgeous state-of-the-art museums in Greece, I'm even more convinced that the marbles should go home. Perhaps the king, with his strong interest in historic preservation, might someday add his voice to those calling for a review of the legal restrictions preventing the Museum from doing, as I strongly believe, the right thing. We can only hope.
Thanks Ann. Yes, it is very rare for me to do such a U-turn, but the more I read into it the more horrified I was at how they ended up in the BM in the first place. I see no reason Greece can't care for its own artefacts.
You say "I have always felt the Museum's claim that it alone could take proper care of the marbles was completely bogus". When have they ever claimed that? The British Museum purchased the Elgin Marbles in 1816 and have owned them for over 200 years.
I saw a sign beside the marbles in 1961, making that claim.
@@annmoore6678 I see. Well the remaining marbles weren't moved into the Acropolis Museum until 1993 and the Athens city smog in the 1960's was detrimental to their conservation. Elgin made plaster casts and these show how the remaining marbles have been degraded and vandalized. There was a study in 2019 into this by Dr Emma Payne at Kings College.
You are a great historian and a hard worker! Very sensible and wise! Thank you for bringing history to me at my age of 59! Wish you and your loved ones a Merry Christmas!
Historian to historian, your channel is one of my absolute favorites. This is one of the aspects of museums that I’m very passionate about and you did it so much justice. Thank you.
Loving this Ancient Greek history!
Thank you. It's something a bit different for me.
I am so pleased -- and not at all surprised -- that, after doing thorough research, you come down on the side of returning the art to Greece. I couldn't agree more: it is the ethical thing to do. May it become possible.
I appreciate that you always give us facts and that you cite your findings. You put so much research into your content and it shows.
There is a case to answer that the marbles should not have been removed. However, returning them would set a problematic precedent for many other items held in locations other than those from which they may have originated, and would also obviously deprive politicians of a very nice source of publicity when times are difficult.
Think about your conscience and how clean you will feel knowing you would have undone the crimes which your ancestors have done. Don’t add to this crime, make a difference.
@@tsifty1 No crime was committed.
No one is responsible for what any ancestor may or may not have done, or indeed what anybody else may have done - that kind of thinking is like going back to the dark ages @@tsifty1
@@rickjensen2717 wrong buddy, taking advantage of a situation is not acceptable. Germans had to pay for what they did and they paid, why an exception to British . After all it wasn’t war for them just going and stealing even worst!
@@andrewwilliams3137buying from a thief like Elgin makes British museum a fence .
The most important consideration today is that the sculptures be displayed to their best advantage, which is clearly at the purpose built museum next to the original site.I had always doubted that the marbles were legally obtained in the first place and you have proved conclusively that they weren't - on several grounds. Congratulations for another stirling piece of research!
This case was taken before the European Court of Human Rights who threw it out because they didn't have the jurisdiction to rule on it. There were no laws or international agreements in 1812 affecting the acquisition. If the Greek government could prove they were stolen I'm sure they would have done so.
New pamphlet published 2023 by Policy Exchange authored by Sir Noel Malcolm of All Souls College, Oxford finds:
claim that Elgin’s removal of the sculptures was illegal is false;
claim that his actions were invalidated by bribery is false;
claim that his actions saved the Marbles from an ongoing process of serious damage, dispersal and destruction is certainly true;
Policy Exchange - the right wing think tank funded by oil companies? Why am I not surprised they would come to that conclusion?
You can argue the legalities but the fact remains that the sculptures are best displayed where they belong - in Athens.
@@kevster2171 That's not a fact, that's an opinion. You can't ignore the legalities, the Elgin Marbles belong to the British Museum and have done for over 200 years. As for best displayed, there were only 1.4 million visitors to the Acropolis Museum in June 2016 to May 2017 compared to over 6 million to the British Museum in 2019 about a half from abroad, and you have to pay to enter the museum in Athens while the British Museum is free.
Good evening to history calling from Bea
Hi Bea. An historical controversy for you this week, all about the Parthenon Marbles.
Would LOVE more Greek history videos! Very fascinating.
I heard that the British Museum wanted to loan pieces out to Greece, a few at a time, circulating the loans. But Greece said they wanted all or nothing. They do have replicas so they could do that. The British government is against handing them back wholesale though.
Tell you what, you take the replicas and Greeks take what is there’s all along.
The Greeks should have preserved them while they could. The winners take all or haven't you heard?
@@mindymorgan8479 you, need to get educated before you make any kind of response. So do the WORLD a favour and sit in the back of the class as you always did.
@@mindymorgan8479 When Greece was under occupation by the ottoman empire as most of Europe was elgin had made a deal with the Turks to take the marbles not with the Greeks, Greece didn't lose the war infact it fought for it's independance after 400 years and was born again as Greece united in 1821 defeating the ottomans. how can you preserve something under occupation. That's like saying that things the nazis stole from X and Y by force back in ww2 and brought back to Germany to stay does that make it right for the Germans to house those stolen treasures today as an example. Eventually, gunpowder the Turks had stored in the Parthenon ignited, blowing out 28 columns, damaging several internal rooms, and killing up to 300 people
👏👏 I so enjoy rewatching your videos, HC. I always manage to miss details on first viewing. The history of Greece in the Ottoman Empire was something I should have known, but didn't. I also appreciated Lord Byron's response to the whole affair; good quote. I agree with you; the marbles should be returned. Have a great weekend. 🙏🏼
Thanks Stephen. I knew nothing about that either, as I've never really looked at Greek history (bar one semester as an undergrad on ancient Greece). Yes, Byron was often very good for a quote. Have a lovely weekend too :-)
@@HistoryCalling I did love Greek mythology; guess I preferred it to "real" history. 😆
Those are some great (if often tragic) stories :-)
I'm always weirded out when agreeing with Byron, but he was spot on here.
When the poet John Keats saw them in 1817 in the British Museum he was inspired to write "On seeing the Elgin Marbles", they were more accessible in a London museum than as a military citadel in Athens then under the Ottoman Empire.
I think they should go back to Greece especially if they can be transported back without damage. Thank you for the awesome video!😊
Thanks Theresa. I can't help but think that's what will eventually happen, especially after recent scandals at the BM about how they care for their items (or rather, don't notice when a couple of thousand of them go missing and then ignore warnings about it when it's brought to their attention).
I was JUST at the British Museum three days ago and saw all of these. Thank you for covering this so carefully.
Hello history calling, again. In one of my stories, my creative character travels through time. He slaps Oliver Cromwell, he engaged in A fight with Peter the great of Russia and richard III of England.
I dunno. I think any one of those guys might have killed him before he could escape though...
@@HistoryCalling You see, he sees A special device that suppressed his super-strength and speed. And also, he has A time machine on him at all time.
Ah, well that does help.
Thank you for reminding commenters to keep remarks respectful. ❤️
It’s often said that the only reason the pyramids are still in Egypt is because there was no way to move them to England.
Antiquities were sold quite legally by licensed dealers and even the Egyptian Antiquities Service themselves prior to 1983.
Ancient Greek history can be interesting so thanks
Adam
It really is. This story was very new to me, but it was fascinating to dig into. Hope you enjoy the video :-)
Not can be. Is! 🙂
It’s a tricky one. Maybe the best answer is that putting the marbles in the British Museum was the right thing to do at the time because they wouldn’t have been properly cared for in Greece, but now that Greece has an appropriate museum for them, the right thing would be to display them there instead.
But the remaining marbles of the Parthenon are in much better shape than those in the British museum. And they are still in Athens.
How was keeping the marbles in some Earl's garden going to preserve them better than if they were left in Athens? They weren't moved to UK to be preserved, they were moved there to grace some stately home of an aristocrat. They only ended up in the BM because the man ran out of money - they should be returned to their lawful home.
As a classicist by vocation, I am pleased to see you tackle this topic... I come to your channel for my chosen avocation, Tudor stuff 😊 as to where they belong, obviously the artefacts belong at home in Athens, but as "possession is nine-tenths of the law" it doesn't seem like they'll be moved any time soon...
Thanks Monica. Yes, I think it'll be a while before they go anywhere, though I also suspect they'll end back in Greece at some point.
If it were postulated that museums should return all objects not native to their own countries, in some cases it would be very difficult to determine who should receive them.
Maybe museums should only return items where there is a definite claim of ownership and keep items that can’t be definitely said to belong to anyone else.
How limiting and culturally narrow when the National Gallery can only display works by Constable, Gainsborough and Turner….
Absolutely no-one is suggesting that - straw man argument
@@FloortileWorks legally purchased from other countries would be different, of course.
@@kate_cooper The understanding of what constitutes legality might raise some issues in some cases.
As always, a brilliantly researched and compelling video. Thank you for putting such effort into presenting a balanced and well thought out view about such an important issue. I am Greek....we want our Parthenon statues back. They must be returned to their true home.
Should have protected them while you had them.
@@mindymorgan8479 With all due respect Mindy....blow it out your arse! The marbles were ILLEGALLY removed from an archaeological site. By any legal definition that's STEALING.
My feeling are this. *according to the laws attitudes and custom of the time* the antiquities were at the whim of the Sultan, to whom they belonged, in his mind, as the spoils of conquest, and I believe he didnt care for such idols and was almost certainly happy for Elgin to help himself, a handy way to forge cooperation with Britain. It was no skin off his nose. I dont think the Sultan would care who was then the owner- the Ambassador or the British State, and the plundering of foreign antiquities was an obsession in the 18th/19th century. Of course the marbles should be repatriated now. We have 3d scanning and printing. The past is the past and even if the pertinent documents were traceable the right thing to do now is create copies and return the originals to where they can be seen in context, in the hands of responsible conservators in their country of origin. The details of the 18thcentury transaction/arrangement is irrelevant now. Attitudes and policy change. The Greek people now have a voice
As always, a superb video!
Hi, I did enjoy it. Your history videos are always enjoyable and wonderful see you next video 😊
Thanks Michelle. Just one more before Christmas now too. I don't know where the year went!
we have the technology to laser scan and reproduce the marbles in minute detail - the Greeks might even pay for it if they were given the original marbles back - of course the Rosetta Stone would be next though - amazing detail in the content as always HC - ty
Yes, we could certainly do that and I even wonder if it wasn't for all the controversy around them, how much would Britons even miss them? I'd never heard of them until they were on the news for instance. I think they mean far more to Greece and understandably so.
@@HistoryCalling - they are a relic of imperial days to a few still - it's beyond silly perhaps - 🛸✨
Of course, technically, The Rosetta Stone is Egyptian (& some think French by proxy). Just sayin' 😉
@@chrisbanks6659 Is it though? It - along with its 'sister stones' - was commissioned by a Greek-speaking dynasty of Macedonian stock and was the product of a thoroughly Hellenised Egypt. It might be entertaining if the British Museum renounced ownership of the Rosetta Stone, quoted Alexander the Great's dying words of 'to the strongest', and watched Egypt and Greece battle it out to be the new owners 🤣
Another great story from your channel thanks. Amazing history.
I'm from London, I visit the British Museum a couple of times a year. I don't even bother visiting the marbles, not when there is vastly superior British stuff in the museum such as Sutton Hoo, the Battersea and Witham shields and so on. If we dumped the marbles we could fill all that valuable space with, much better British exhibits that haven't got a home yet..
Very enlightening! Thank you!
Although I’m primarily here for your royal history videos, particularly Tudor and Art, I almost fell off my chair when this one came up! I was JUST talking with my brother about these marbles last week! I mentioned seeing these while visiting London and he told me this very story!
My first reaction would be to return them and everything around the world to be returned to their originals owners. But considering the state of the world today and in the future, it would be best to leave things scattered around the globe to perhaps save ancient articles if disaster should hit. Look at what the Taliban did to the Giant Buddhas of Bamiyan statues and museum's holdings 20 years ago. The Library of Alexandria, the greatest library in the world, was destroyed by fire. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
Yes, I agree. We don't live in an ideal world & history hasn't stopped being made. I've no doubt there are many, many examples like those you mention; for me the damage done in the museum of Cairo came to mind, also this channel has a video about the Amber Room. There is no perfect solution here but I'm not going to defend or apologise for dubious happenings in the past. Attitudes are ever-changing; as are borders.
Ok have it your way, send I’d the crown and a few other British treasures. Just to be safe as you state.
@@tsifty1 Fair point! 😄
These are pieces of a whole and logic says they should be reunited where they started. However, looking at history in Greece over the last 300 years it's possible they could have been irreversibly damaged or stolen without being able to be traced. So this may sound elitist but maybe it was good they've been in safe keeping. But is it time to return them now? Probably
Excellent episode BTW. Lol. You really did great! Lvya much
Considering that the remaining artwork on the building not only remained in Athens, but even is in a better state than that in Britain, it's obvious that the marbles didn't need to go broken off violently and shipped to England to be "saved". They'd have been safer in Athens.
@@helgaioannidis9365 👍 agreed
@@helgaioannidis9365 The Parthenon Marbles that remained suffered from serious air pollution and acid rain until they were housed in the Acropolis Museum in 1993. "The west frieze was largely left intact by Elgin’s workmen, but they did take moulds of it. Comparison between those and the next set of moulds, taken in the early 1870s, shows significant damage to the surfaces, as well as the loss of some distinct features, such as heads, which may have been caused by the bombardments of 1821 and 1826-7". See Sir Noel Malcolm's 2023 pamphlet on the Elgin Marbles.
@@andrewwilliams3137 the marbles in the British Museum were also damaged by pollution and by improper "restauration" techniques.
Those that remained in Athens still show original chiseling and residue of the original colouring, which is not the case for those in the British museum.
Also Elgin damaged the building and the sculptures when he had them violently broken off the building and cut into pieces for the transport.
I'm of two minds on these things - one side is that they were stolen and need to be returned, but the other is that more people will see them in the more visited museum. They remind me of the Henry VIII letters the Vatican has. They were stolen from England and need to be returned, but also that the Vatican has stored them well.
Not stolen -Lord Elgin got the Porte's permission (The Ottoman government) to take the marbles - the Turks were grateful for the British in saving them from Napoleon and the French and were eager to repay them -Elgin was the British ambassador. Later in the century the same Ottoman Turks allowed the Germans (by then their close allies) to take the Pergamum altar back to Berlin where it still is -every bit as magnificent as the Elgin marbles but Pergamum a Greek city is now in today's Turkey.(Bergama) Why doesn't Turkey demand it back - because it's Greek stuff!
@kaloarepo288 except they were stolen, as explained in the video. So your argument crumbles, and they should be returned. Should the letters of Henry VIII be returned? Sure. Does anybody outside Britain care about those letters? Absolutely not. Does anybody outside Greece and Britain care about the marbles? Yes - those are part and parcel of the humanity's history. H VIII is not - he's just a horny king who killed 3 wives.
Yes, good point. There were only 1.4 million visitors to the Acropolis Museum June 2016 to May 2017 (not including visitors to the Acropolis itself). In 2019 there were over 6 million to the British Museum, about a half from abroad. There's a charge to enter the museum in Athens while the British Museum is free.
Somebody a while back rather aptly compared the imperative to return all artefacts to their country of origin to the Last Judgement and the corporeal resurrection of the dead to their original state - the DNA of our bodies has been so constantly been reused by others by means of natural recycling of elements that working out which bit of dna belongs to which body would be well nigh impossible - I'm reminded of the artefact found in the ruins of Elam a civilisation in what is now Iran - the stele was looted from Mesopotamia (Iraq) by a victorious Elamite king and ended up there - who has greater right to it Iran or Iraq?@@andrewwilliams3137
this video came out at a perfect time, just sat down to relax.
Enjoy :-)
I never knew that entrance to the British Museum is free; that is terrific. Most museums in the US have fairly expensive entrance fees. The Ringling Museum in Sarasota, FL has a free day for the art museum on Mondays (because circus people usually had Mondays off and very little disposable income), and the grounds are always free (a beautiful picnic spot). I think that all museums should have at least one free entrance day in order to give everyone the opportunity to visit no matter their financial situation.
I think because I live in the United States and see Native American pain over their artifacts being in museums (I follow someone on Twitter who went to the British Museum and was like "stopped by to visit my family's stuff!") I also tend to be very "give it back" about museums in general. When I was studying at my university I initially was planning to become a curator but pulled back from that because I didn't feel right about it. I think there's value in museums but the way things have been gathered for them historically is a huge ethical mess.
Thank you, exactly the detailed video I was looking for.
Interesting and complicated topic. In my opinion, artefacts should be returned to the country of origin, provided that country is able to conserve, and/or display the objects. Hellas is a modern country, which is able to do so.
On the other side, many countries are still not able to. An example is Iraq, where many atrefacts were stolen or destroyed, as a result of the wars. I guess many African countries are the same. We also know that many religious states will destroy arterfacts, for being "heathen" or "blasphmous", like Taliban demolishing Buddha statues in 2001, for being non Islamic.
So it seems that each case needs aa individual evaluation. That national feelings, or pride get into it, doesn't make it easier....
Thanks, again. More of these, please...
well done HC, i honestly didn’t even know this was a controversy! it seems more fitting that they be in Greece when it first comes to find. whether stolen or not, i agree with you in sharing some pity for the workers. hope you have a great holiday!
Returning the marbles would set a horrific precedent that could and would empty museums all around the world.
Good. Then they can make exhibits displaying their OWN history and not other people’s history.
There is no more excuse for the U.K. to have the sculptures than for Stonehenge to be shipped to India.
I never knew the whole story before so thanks for this video. What will happen if the British Museum returns the Marble to Greece ? It would be a precedent for future cases and other countries will require their artifacts, not only from British Museum but also from the other ones and this can lead to serious problems.
What serious problems? Serious challenges, yes, for sure, but why problems? It would be such an excellent, invigorating, fascinating way for museums like the BM and Louvre to acknowledge that their own history is very complicated (what history isn't?) and that things have been done in the name of preservation and empire which shouldn't have. What is the function of a museum, in these modern times where pretty much all historical artefacts can be viewed on the internet and there is so much more geographical mobility? This is a question to which the answer(s) could be connected to this issue; a modern museum could be one that tells the story of itself, of how historical study is not exempt from prejudice and criminal activity, and how these thorny issues were solved and handled in a spirit of international cooperation and a belief in global culture. Wouldn't it be glorious if rather than denying that many of their artefacts were stolen or acquired under murky circumstances, the curators and researchers connected to these museums were able/allowed (because it's not just them ofc, politicians play a role) to acknowledge this and work with the international scholarly community to set standards, conditions, agreements, and plans for the return of such artefacts to their home (providing that home is stable; this could be one if the things that is a condition), where they really do belong and will have the greatest impact? In return I'm certain elegant solutions could be set up that would leave the European museums no poorer (a loaning schedule for certain pieces, the possibility of taking detailed copies, etc). Perhaps this is naive but this sounds to me like a much better and sustainable way for museums to go into the 21st century; their role is changing and will change, and if they don't take ownership of that I do think they might become what many people already think they are, stuffy relics of a bygone age, clinging desperately to a superiority that leaves a bitter taste in the mouth to see.
Excellent overview and helped clarify a lot of points in my mind. I believe that they should be returned to Greece.
Thank you for the wonderful history lesson, and I'm for returning these precious pieces of history to. the Athenians. I can't wait to enjoy your video on the Library of Alexandria.
As someone from Britain who has seen the marbles in person (although it was 8 years ago; I was a 10 y/o boy, I can't really remember it all too well), I believe they should be returned to Greece. As with the one statue of a lady who has been separated from her three other "sisters" (I'm pretty sure the statues are called the 4 sisters on Greece, I may be wrong).
Also, I've seen the Giant's Causeway. It was pretty great; I slipped over on a wet stone and landed straight on my bottom, 11 y/o me was not impressed! 😂
Happy Friday. Great video. This reminds me when I went to Olympia Greece and tour the location of the first Olympics. There was rumble everywhere and a building of statues and artifacts. Yes . They should go back to Greece
One thing I will note is that the parthenon gallery in the BM frequently closes due to the roof leaking lmao
With modern scanning and laser printing technology, I'm firmly of the opinion that the British Museum should make copies and send the originals back. That would allow much more in-depth study to be done on them - overlaying the 'naked' marble with projections of their original painted forms, for example - and enhance the museum's existing claims with regards to education. Greece gets their stuff back, the British get to do something new to bring in new vistors... everyone wins.
(Even if the BM doesn't make any copies though, it's still not their stuff. Send it back.)
Why not have every museum return all non-native artifacts to their country of origin? That way if you want to see Greek sculptures you have to go to Greece, or if you want to see Indian artifacts you have to go to India. In my mind this is about modern tourism and the income generated from that, not so-called "cultural heritage". Greek people valued their "cultural heritage" so much they plundered the Parthenon for building materials! This has happened in every country in the world. Stuff happens in 2000 years, or even 200. Let sleeping dogs lie, and let modern laws govern how art is purchased/stored/displayed/taxed. I think it's great that people are following what happened to art plundered by the Nazis, but that is recent history, not the distant past.
Well I don't mind a Museum having something created elsewhere if it was purchased or gifted fair and square, but I do take issue with stolen items and I think the world is heading in the direction of giving those items back where possible.
@@HistoryCalling I think there's a statute of limitations on all this. What happened to all the artwork Napoleon plundered? Does France still have it?
I think the average Greek person sees this more as a matter of national pride rather than as an economic/financial matter, although perhaps the Greek government thinks more in those terms (and anyway, is Greece really lacking for tourists?). Pick an average Greek off the street and ask him/her about it and yes, the main arguments will be about cultural heritage and national pride. I also think most Greeks see it this way: permission to take the marbles was granted by a foreign occupying force, one that we hated and later fought a revolution to overthrow (I realise all of this is thinking in hindsight, and may not reflect how people felt/thought back then - we are talking about the modern Greek person). As such, it is seen as an illegitimate action, as it was perpetrated by those to whom they never belonged in the first place (again, I realise this sentiment may have no legal validity - I am just explaining what the sentiment is). As for Greeks plundering the Parthenon for building materials, Greece at the time the marbles were taken was pretty poor and backwards, the majority of the population was poorly educated (if at all), and they cared more about survival than preserving some old temple whose significance was unknown to them - I don't think that should be held against us centuries later, when we now clearly very much care about it.
@@babablacksheepdog Thanks for taking the time to explain your point of view. I think at some point people have to draw a line about about rehashing events that happened in the past, though. Lord Elgin sounds like he may have pulled a fast one but it also sounds like there was bribery and corruption going on in Athens, too. Who would have thought? We can't rewrite history. Nobody knew at that time that Greece would be an independent nation again. It's possible that Elgin thought he was "saving" the sculptures from a worse fate. The Parthenon was in pretty rough shape what with explosions, weather, wars, "recycling", etc. It has had to be rebuilt and restored more than once. Thank goodness so much of it is still there to be enjoyed by the current Greek nation and the world! I think there is a great advantage in having this display of Greek art in London, available to be studied and enjoyed by people who will never get a chance to visit Greece themselves.
@@janegardener1662well said
Thank you for another well researched topic. Im inclined to agree that they should be handed back, but I have strong doubts about whether they ever will be. The slippery slope argument has world-wide implications, and I cant see how the current owners, both public and private, of vast collections of looted antiquity, across the globe, can be compelled to pack up their treasures and send them back to their original homes. The provenance of the marbles is well known, and, as you rightly argue, it is clear that they were looted, but returning them sets a precedent that museums everywhere must be conscious of when looking at their own collections. What happens when countries require the return of objects that have more ambiguous provenance? What about antiquities that are in private hands, and people/organisations have paid huge sums for them, in good faith that it was legal to do so? I'm sure that there is a solution, but it is going to need to involve a broad agreement. One that I'm not sure the world is ready to accept.
Hope you enjoy your weekend history calling from Bea
Thank you. You too. :-)
Excellent and thoughtful analysis. I think that the marbles should be returned to Greece. However, the British museum can't give them back without inviting a tidal wave of demands from countries all over the world. Every major museum would feel the effect. Sadly, everyone is stuck with the fallout of Thomas Bruce's sketchy dealings.
A great overview of a thorny issue. Anyone with the correct insight of the facts and a sense of what is ethically right will conclude that these priceless pieces of heritage belong in Athens. I've seen the originals in the UK and the copies and empty spaces in the (truly wonderful) Acropolis museum. I feel if the British were able to acknowledge some of the less savoury parts of their imperial history, the door could open to a wonderful cooperation between the two museums to ensure that the marbles could go home, but the BM would have access to them for loans, study, copies etc. Sadly it doesn't look like this will happen soon.
I felt how completely ignorant I was about the museum's subject.
So I just learn a lot from your detailed information. Thank you very much. I wish you a Happy New Year !
"It took hundreds of workmen four years..." What response did the workmen's actions during this time get from people in the area?
*crickets*
Elgin shipped the Marbles to the UK 1802-1812 over a 10 year period. Difficult to believe that the local and central Ottoman government didn't know about it. There were no complaints raised at the time or in 1816 when they were sold to the British Museum.
Honestly, they should be given back to greece. They never should have been taken to begin with. Taking them caused more damage than just leaving them.
Yes, I agree (which I didn't expect to when I started researching this, as initially I believed the BM's assertions that the acquisition was all above board).
@@HistoryCalling yeah, i thought elgin did have permission prior to watching your video, but i did know about how badly they were treated in recovery and transport. It is a shame that we can't see them the way they were in the past, before the munition explosion.
Give them back!! As well as all the other nicked stuff. James Alcaster has a fantastic sketch about this😅
A similar situation is with the Iranian royal regalia and imperial throne - in 1739 the Iranian shah Nader conducted a lightning raid into Mughal India and sacked Delhi carrying away all the incredibly valuable throne furniture and imperial regalia of the Mughal emperors and the loot - the Peacock throne is still in Tehran as part of the Iranian imperial set up. Should Iran restore all the stuff to India???>?
I forgot to ask you last week but what are your top five favorite portrayals of Henry viii ?
Oh, I don't know exactly. Ray Winstone did a good one and Damien Lewis. If Jonathan Rhys Meyer had looked more like him and been 10-15 years older at the time of filming I might say him too.
Just curious is it possible that if Anne Boleyn sent a letter to Henry the 8 that she accepts her daughter Elizabeth as illegitimate and that her marriage to Henry the 8 was not consummated and that if he had children of his future queen will be legitimate then is it possible Henry the 8 could have sent her away had she decided this and she asked to pardon rather than facing the sword if Henry the 8 agreed to this idea do you think he would have say for example if Anne Boleyn wrote this letter on the 5th of May which means it would have given her time for Henry the 8 final decision to do with her and the men what your opinion history calling
No, no one would ever have believed that for a second as the marriage was so obviously consummated. It wouldn't have even occurred to anyone to say otherwise.
I don't agree with what Elgin did; however, I do believe that they are housed safely at the British Museum, and transit of these fragile stones would result in further damage.
On a side-note, the statue of Byron depicts a very handsome man.
I've heard that he was quite a philanderer.
Please could you do a documentary on him?
I think he was a very interesting man. Love his poems
Why in the world was part of the sculpture blurred at 7:38 ?!
we can also make near perfect copies of things like this, so not much is lost if we do return them
Personally, I'd like to see ownership of the marbles given back to Greece, particularly the museum, and that the British Museum be given the right to display them in perpetuity with the acknowledgement that all signage be rewritten to indicate they are on loan to the museum by the Greek government. This would show proper ownership and assure that more people are able to see these great works.
Curious issue about architecture - they are made to function as shelter, to house, to fortify or sanctify what the human decides - they are not ‘art’ as we think in the modern sense (ie having no other purpose but to look appealing).
But, once that architectural structure ceases TO function it loses its viability - the Parthenon, thru no fault of its own - human politics did the damage - lost increasing levels of viability with the Greeks loss of autonomy, to Rome, and most especially to the Ottomans who had no connection culturally, religiously or ethnically to anything on or attached yo the Parthenon. When the roof blew off the temple, also thru no fault of the structure’s own limitations - that sealed its fate: look around, what structure can you find without a roof, that still functions as … anything? It is now open to vandalism, graffiti, abuse of theft, looting … whatever was left at the Parthenon, as at the Acropolis as a whole, was to put it crudely, ‘fair game’ and treated as such by any chancer, any well meaning ‘archaeologist’ (same thing??), any visiting tourist (Hmm, same thing?), any curious soul with the income and time to exploit the situation.
One could say the same thing about the ‘ruins’ also being excavated from 1760’s in the area of Pompeii, (Herculaneum, Boscoreale et al ) - the Bourbons dragged up everything they fancies and put in their private museum - the Murats opened these museum galleries and presented them to the Neapolitans as THEIR heritage, the returning Bourbons took it all back in 1816, even the reclamation projects Caroline Bonaparte Murat personally financed on behalf of the people of Naples.
Leland Roth wrote an excellent book on the realities of architecture, I use it with my students, to explain just how a structure such as the Parthenon, like so much of our current cities, simply transform from viable to irrelevant, seemingly overnight, just by losing their roof.
Άλλο ένα masterclass από το HC. Ανυπομονώ να. Ευχαριστώ πολύ ☺🤓
I had to do a Google translation, but now that I understand the message, thank you very much :-)
@@HistoryCalling It's all Greek to me!! A subject close to my heart. I sit on the fence on this one - we own a small property on one of the Greek Islands and am loath to speak either way.
@@chrisbanks6659 A true diplomat, as always! 😉
Ah, now that sounds like a beautiful little holiday home to have.
@@stephencarrillo5905 Not really Stephen. Just suppressing my potty mouth - I do like a good rant now and then but this is not the platform 😄
So glad to learn they aren't large spheres. I had no idea.
I always love these videos of yours. Where you get us to think about the entire purpose of archaeology. What is preservation if it’s completely removed from the original location and the original intent? How can we define preservation if it’s on our terms and not the original?
Removal of sacred objects, religious relics, buried bodies in another’s land without returning them because “finder’s keepers” is, in my eyes, completely disrespectful and unethical. With all the technology we have today, we can make 3D computer renderings and 100% accurate physical reconstructions.
Why are the Athenians left to make the reconstruction while the originals bring in millions of pounds to the UK through tourism alone? It isn’t just the British Museum benefitting. It’s all the nearby places to stay, restaurants to eat, and the hundreds of thousands of other attractions that people visit the UK for.
Elgin made plaster casts of everything, the Acropolis Museum displays some of these. The casts made in 1812 show how the remaining marbles were degraded and vandalized, they were not displayed in the Acropolis Museum until 1993.
This was not a case of "finders keepers", permission was obtained.
@@andrewwilliams3137 The permission is dubious and I was not only referring to this particular set of artifacts.
They should be returned... only after i get to see them in July though 😊
Six million people visit the British Museum--per year, for free. Six milliion people also visit Athens, and have to *pay* to visit the Parthenon Museum. I think I understand Greece's motivation.
Love you calling on Ancient Greece❤
I'd love to look at history from outside the UK and Ireland more often actually, but I find it's hard to get people to watch it.
@@HistoryCalling
I know what you mean. I watch some channels and as soon as they do something else ~ the replies are "I watch you 0nly for your stories, don't change the program pls." 🤔 Lol.
Just know I enjoy your uploads every time.
Merry Christmas from across the pond.🎄🎄🎄
I must say that I agree that all antiquities that were unlawfully taken from any other country should be returned. If the legal Government gave or sold antiquiities to another country, that country has no obligation to return same. The British Museum does indeed have many antiquities which were stolen or pillaged from other countries and which should be returned.
Another brilliant lecture. MJF, PhD.
Thanks Michael :-)
We need to be careful though with historical objects with government situations...there should be some type of regulation world wide
Yes, that's not a bad idea.
You presented both sides in equal measure. Not an easy decision in many ways. Thank you.
Thanks Helen. I hope I did it justice. It's certainly unusual for me to do the kind of 180 degree turn in my opinions that I did between starting and completing my research.
I think i am more of a " let them stay where they lay" person. Look at the extreme damage that has been done trying to move them.... another disaster could remove them from us completely. Also, that they have ended up in england is a potent part of human history, too. As long as the whole horrible story is told, it might be worth it. If they were in Greece, would we ever have heard you tell this story??😢
It's also about it's value to their rightful owners. People visit the British museum to see them instead of Athens. That's why Greece wants them back
@@LenaFerrari Exactly, this is about tourism $$$ not "cultural heritage". Only half of the Parthenon marbles survived the 2000 years in Athens due to war, weathering, accidents, and the local population pilfering them for building materials.
Yes, it's true that the publicity they garner due to the dispute over them is what has made them extra famous at the moment and had it not been for that I may not have thought to do a video on them. It's a complex debate, I grant you.
We have the technology now to create almost exact replicas of pretty much anything we want. Make copies to put on display and send the originals back. The Rosetta Stone on display is a replica, as visitors kept breaking bits off as souvenirs, so why not other statues and objects?
I agree that the collection should be returned to Athens. I also understand that the Turks referred to them as "idols" in the paperwork presented in this video and we saw that the Turks had used the temple as a military storage site. These facts offer context that we may not appreciate in our time. The use of the term "idols" may indicate that the Islamic Turkish officials considered the items blasphemous. If they hadn't been purchased and sent to London they may not have survived to the present. Think of all the priceless artifacts in Syria and Iraq that the world could have saved if ISIS had sold them to foreign museums. The fact that Elgin was able to purchase them may reinforce the idea that the Turks looked at them with contempt.
Currently the culture minister of Britain recently suggested thT they can be borrowed to Greece as long Greece recognises them first as property of British Museum. Says also that they were legally aquired and payed for ... The lack of shame of these people colours whole of Britain as Thieves as long Brittish Government does back up Brittish Museum. When you buy something from a thief , even if you payed and have receipt as long it is considered illegally aquired by him you count as a fence so a thief too. Simple as that
Sounds like a case of:
He said, that she said, that they said, that we said, that ....
When nobody wants to say it was their fault.
Ah empires. They made the past complicated and continue to make things complicated. I think current empires really should re-think their collections and address the plundering and return what was stolen. The problem is so nuanced that im sure that it probablly seems impossible.
One more thing; I got into an argument with A another RUclipsr. We were debating on who was better:you or Lindsay holiday.
Oh I dunno. Each to their own. I'm sure it's just a personal preference thing.
@@HistoryCalling You are history calling the great. Everybody should Love you.
To me, the fact that returning the marbles to Greece might make for a slippery slope of returning stolen artifacts is a feature, not a bug.
A question I keep grappling
with: does art belong to the person who created it, their family, their city, their country, or the past, present and future human race?
For the question, I’m asking something which has barely anything to do with History, tbh😭 Have you ever watched Agatha Christie’s Poirot? (The one with David Suchet, I shan’t lie I generally find the others barely watchable- though this can largely be blamed on my personal… personality?😭 idk-
Oh yes, I've seen loads of them. Love a bit of Suchet :-)
@@HistoryCalling watching him in other shows- and even in interviews- feels so weird! He is a truly good actor, for it seems like two completely different people! The other cast members are also perfectly cast- Hugh Fraser doth appeal to me maybe a bit too much👀
I don’t get why something from halfway across the world would be in the BRITISH museum? We have so much amazing archeological history in this country, why is room being taken up by another country’s history? Send the items back and replace the displays with displays on Roman Britain, pre-Christian Celtic artefacts, Iron Age tools, displays on whether or not King Arthur was real, or information on any of the kings, queens and fascinating historical figures we have in the U.K.
There is no reason for non British artefacts to be in a museum that is supposed to celebrate British culture
The thing is, the marbles were given to Britain by the Ottomans, but they were never really the Ottomans’ to give away, the Ottomans stole them from the Greeks when they invaded. I could understand moving them to Britain on a temporary basis to keep them safe until they could be safely displayed in Athens again, but a. that clearly was not Elgin’s reasoning, b. very little care was actually taken to keep them safe and they ended up very damaged anyway, and c. they could have safely been returned to Athens years ago. So yeah I think they should go back really. However I think they would be safer in a museum in Greece rather than in the Parthenon itself. I do love the idea of artefacts from around the world being shown in one very accessible place so more people have an opportunity to see and learn, but this can only be done ethically when the artefacts are rightfully given or loaned by their true owners.
In 1812 Athens had been part of the Ottoman Empire for 354 years, since 1458, they were the legitimate governing body at the time.
Thank you.
Here's a thought: imagine how much work could be given to British artesians if the British Museum commissioned faithful, high quality replicas to be created to house here before repatriating the artefacts still asked for by countries of origin?
Elgin made plaster casts of everything, the Acropolis Museum displays some of these. The casts made in 1812 show how the remaining marbles were degraded and vandalized, they were not displayed in the Acropolis Museum until 1993.
It’s interesting, that even during the time of “acquisition” people criticised Elgin for taking them. So this argument of returning them isn’t modern! Also, wouldn’t it be possible now more than ever, with modern techniques to make reproductions, that could stay in the British Museum (it’s ironic, they claim to show cultures of the world and yet it’s named “British”) and give the originals back to Greece. That way both countries could display them and the museum wouldn’t be “empty”, and they could continue to display world heritage.
Another great one. I do agree with you that they should go back to Greece where they belong. The Ottoman didn't have the right to sell or give something they didn't own. This has happened too much in the past with other countries occupying other countries or even scientist taking things for the pretense of it needing to be study. Just so wrong.
Thanks!
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE DONATION NAGISA. I hope you have a wonderful new year :-)
Oooh Ancient Greece! Hope this one does well so you may come back to it in ye future!
I must say, Ancient Greece is, to me, far more interesting than Ancient Rome, in pretty much every respect- not taking the engineering and military genius from the Romans, but still, those aren’t the really the things which make me interesting in a Society.
Sadly I can see that it's already flopping, but I still found it interesting to research and put together. I like Rome myself, but I think that's because I studied it in school.
@@HistoryCalling Darn it :/ well I shall watch it many times over, as I do to videos I like a lot, so, hopefully, that’ll be a tiny bit of help 🥲
I studied Rome too, much more than Greece, but when I got to study Greek Art History in Highschool I was hooked
So people like me had to pay for them! The usual story- they’re in a museum in London- it costs a lot of money to visit London from here in Lancashire. If they’re sent back, and I think they maybe should be, the people who paid for them should get a tax rebate. To be fair to Elgin though, many stones would have been lost but for him.
They should be returned. They should be where they were intended to be.
Why are the Partheon Marbles in the Louvre NOT so controversial?
Probably because there aren’t as many there. The bulk is in the British Museum so they get the bulk of the vitriol. France should return their marbles as well but for now the British are getting the heat.
Louvre OK - British Museum "STOLEN"
Deceitful two-faced hypocrisy.
A sad story, and an excellent and well-balanced look at it. I'm usually a bit skeptical about our ability to right history's endless sea of wrongs, but in cases like this I wish the history, the legality, and even the morality could be set aside, and it could be weighed like a child custody case. Here in 2023, what's best for the marbles?
Shortly after the Second World War, America made a gesture to England for its brave world-saving stance against a little Austrian corporal with a funny mustache (YT objects only to his name): With heartfelt thanks, the manuscript to "Alice in Wonderland" was sent home. At the same time, the Wright Brothers plane came home from England to the US. Where's that spirit?
1. The Greeks had no interest in these Marbles until they appeared in the British Museum.
2. The Greek's and Turkish were grinding down and destroying the Marbles to turn them into stone for building materials.
3. The Parthenon Marbles only exist because the British saved them. Unfashionable facts.
A set of casts of the Parthenon Marbles is in NYC at the Graduate Center-CUNY on 5th Ave at 34th for those who want to see them. They arrived in NYC around 1850'sih and are are in the lobby of the CUNY building and free to the public to view. I think a copy of the marbles could be carefully made for the British Museum to keep with the originals returned to Greece.
Yes, that would seem to be a fair compromise. Most of the dinosaur 'bones' you see in museums are replicas and people don't seem to care on the whole.
We also have some plaster casts of the Elgin marbles at the Western Australian Museum, they arrived in the 1890's, I think. Much sought after at the time, when there was a great respect for the Ancient Greek origins of much of Western civilization.
@@richardnieuwhof2028 I wonder where else casts can be found around the world?
Thank you
You're welcome. Hope you enjoy it :-)
@HistoryCalling I am enjoying it thanks. Love the byron poem. Scathing criticism. ( and accurate)
Yes, Byron was good at that sort of thing. :-)