Let me know below if you think the Marbles should go back to Greece and remember to check out: BUY MY BOOK (Find Your Irish Ancestors Online): amzn.to/3Z2ChnG Website (with 2 FREE DOWNLOADS): www.historycallingofficial.com/ Patreon: www.patreon.com/historycalling Amazon storefront: www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling Instagram: instagram.com/historycalling/
They should definitely go back to Greece, EVERYTHING snatched from other countries/cultures should be returned The “it was totally legal” argument is nonsense, utter nonsense-getting legal approval from your corrupt/colonial system for being an egregious imperialist . . . Sure . . . It’s such a travesty that the British Museum is acting like anything other than the Nazi’s who pillaged and stole culturally significant artifacts and art - they don’t have a moral leg to stand on and I think more pressure should be put on them and the British monarchy to send back some of their jewels Also they need to fully relinquish the Stone of Scone to Scotland - this attitude of “well violence was ok back then so we’re going to keep it until you pull it out of our dead white racists hands” is SUCH AN EMBARRASSMENT
While I do think they should go back to Greece, when it comes to the Stone of Scone that has gone back to Scotland. It only comes back to England for coronations which I actually think is quite a nice way of making those ceremonies more inclusive of Scotland, though of course you are free to disagree with me on that. I also don't think it's fair to say that the issue around the Stone was anything to do with racism. Scotland is part of the UK and both Scotland and England are made up primarily of white people. I can't see how racism comes into it. The current royals are even descended from the Scottish Stuarts and the Queen Mother was Scottish.
I look forward to seeing the bits of Acropolis sitting around various parts of the globe put back into their place on the Acropolis in Greece. Since it's the right thing to do, however, I doubt it will ever happen. I was enjoying your narrative but had to stop the video because all the horizontal and vertical scrolling of the camera was making me motion sick. Hope you have a great weekend!
I had no opinion previously, cos I knew I was completely ignorant, but it does sound exceptionally dodgy- the British government just taking what it wanted, then passing _their own laws_ to make the theft "legal". I don't think that's how it should work! None of the arguments to keep them in the UK really hold up, so I'd say they should probably go back. I'd always known them as the "Elgin Marbles", but with no idea where the name came from, so I was very interested to find out, & I'll stop calling them by the name of the guy who stole them. I'd fight anyone who called the Stone of Scone "the Edward I Stone", & I'm not even Scottish, so I'm not going to insult the Greek people like that.
I have visited Athens and the acropolis a number of times now, first in 1974 ad then again in 2012, 2018. I mention that time line because back in 1974 the acropolis was largely open to the visitors with access to the monuments and tickets purchased from a small timber hut. Back then I would suggest that the marbles were best displayed in the British Museum. However since then there has been much work carried out by the Greeks as they seek to restore much of the Parthenon and on my last visit I was able to visit the new Museum described in this video. There you can view many of the works saved from the Acropolis whilst being able to look across and see original place where these marble carvings once stood. My attitude like the narrators, has now changed and in my view there is a clearly appropriate place to house the Elgin Marbles. It is worth pointing out that at the Acropolis Museum there is a scaled down sculpture of both end pediments east ad west, these give a complete image of how the pediments would have appeared. Would it not be possible for replications to be original marbles to be provided for the British Museum whilst the originals could be returned to the New Acropolis Museum in Athens where it overlooks the monuments that comprise the sacred Athenian sanktury.
I agree with you. With today’s technology many relics can be recreated and the originals returned to the rightful owners especially if they have museums, etc., to display them.
Very expensive and for sure bad for the status of the exponents as history calling mentioned. Never steal in the first place and not try to find any justifications!
Beautifully presented! You have outdone yourself with this meticulous examination of the issue, and the fact that you changed your own opinion in the course of studying it. That's the sign of a truly objective scholar! From the first time I saw them, I have always felt the Museum's claim that it alone could take proper care of the marbles was completely bogus. After visiting some gorgeous state-of-the-art museums in Greece, I'm even more convinced that the marbles should go home. Perhaps the king, with his strong interest in historic preservation, might someday add his voice to those calling for a review of the legal restrictions preventing the Museum from doing, as I strongly believe, the right thing. We can only hope.
Thanks Ann. Yes, it is very rare for me to do such a U-turn, but the more I read into it the more horrified I was at how they ended up in the BM in the first place. I see no reason Greece can't care for its own artefacts.
You say "I have always felt the Museum's claim that it alone could take proper care of the marbles was completely bogus". When have they ever claimed that? The British Museum purchased the Elgin Marbles in 1816 and have owned them for over 200 years.
@@annmoore6678 I see. Well the remaining marbles weren't moved into the Acropolis Museum until 1993 and the Athens city smog in the 1960's was detrimental to their conservation. Elgin made plaster casts and these show how the remaining marbles have been degraded and vandalized. There was a study in 2019 into this by Dr Emma Payne at Kings College.
I’m an archaeologist- they’re stolen. Even ignoring the sketchiness of translation of a translation documentation, that permit didn’t give Elgin permission to remove materials from the site, let alone from the building itself. I work in Pompeii- out permits say we’re allowed to excavate in particular locations, meaning we can dig and move materials around unimpeded. This does NOT mean we’re allowed to remove materials from the site or the country; it’s implicitly understood that that would be BAD, and definitely not covered by our permits. The fact that Elgin used that kind of logic to justify his theft shows how underhanded his intentions were.
Agreed. The need to be repatriated, like so many other items. The argument the British Museum makes for keeping the Marbles is archaic. What ever they think or thought was agreed upon at the time, does not matter and it does not make it right.
Historian to historian, your channel is one of my absolute favorites. This is one of the aspects of museums that I’m very passionate about and you did it so much justice. Thank you.
You are a great historian and a hard worker! Very sensible and wise! Thank you for bringing history to me at my age of 59! Wish you and your loved ones a Merry Christmas!
I am so pleased -- and not at all surprised -- that, after doing thorough research, you come down on the side of returning the art to Greece. I couldn't agree more: it is the ethical thing to do. May it become possible.
As always, a brilliantly researched and compelling video. Thank you for putting such effort into presenting a balanced and well thought out view about such an important issue. I am Greek....we want our Parthenon statues back. They must be returned to their true home.
@@mindymorgan8479 With all due respect Mindy....blow it out your arse! The marbles were ILLEGALLY removed from an archaeological site. By any legal definition that's STEALING.
There is a case to answer that the marbles should not have been removed. However, returning them would set a problematic precedent for many other items held in locations other than those from which they may have originated, and would also obviously deprive politicians of a very nice source of publicity when times are difficult.
Think about your conscience and how clean you will feel knowing you would have undone the crimes which your ancestors have done. Don’t add to this crime, make a difference.
No one is responsible for what any ancestor may or may not have done, or indeed what anybody else may have done - that kind of thinking is like going back to the dark ages @@tsifty1
@@rickjensen2717 wrong buddy, taking advantage of a situation is not acceptable. Germans had to pay for what they did and they paid, why an exception to British . After all it wasn’t war for them just going and stealing even worst!
The most important consideration today is that the sculptures be displayed to their best advantage, which is clearly at the purpose built museum next to the original site.I had always doubted that the marbles were legally obtained in the first place and you have proved conclusively that they weren't - on several grounds. Congratulations for another stirling piece of research!
This case was taken before the European Court of Human Rights who threw it out because they didn't have the jurisdiction to rule on it. There were no laws or international agreements in 1812 affecting the acquisition. If the Greek government could prove they were stolen I'm sure they would have done so.
New pamphlet published 2023 by Policy Exchange authored by Sir Noel Malcolm of All Souls College, Oxford finds: claim that Elgin’s removal of the sculptures was illegal is false; claim that his actions were invalidated by bribery is false; claim that his actions saved the Marbles from an ongoing process of serious damage, dispersal and destruction is certainly true;
@@kevster2171 That's not a fact, that's an opinion. You can't ignore the legalities, the Elgin Marbles belong to the British Museum and have done for over 200 years. As for best displayed, there were only 1.4 million visitors to the Acropolis Museum in June 2016 to May 2017 compared to over 6 million to the British Museum in 2019 about a half from abroad, and you have to pay to enter the museum in Athens while the British Museum is free.
👏👏 I so enjoy rewatching your videos, HC. I always manage to miss details on first viewing. The history of Greece in the Ottoman Empire was something I should have known, but didn't. I also appreciated Lord Byron's response to the whole affair; good quote. I agree with you; the marbles should be returned. Have a great weekend. 🙏🏼
Thanks Stephen. I knew nothing about that either, as I've never really looked at Greek history (bar one semester as an undergrad on ancient Greece). Yes, Byron was often very good for a quote. Have a lovely weekend too :-)
When the poet John Keats saw them in 1817 in the British Museum he was inspired to write "On seeing the Elgin Marbles", they were more accessible in a London museum than as a military citadel in Athens then under the Ottoman Empire.
I heard that the British Museum wanted to loan pieces out to Greece, a few at a time, circulating the loans. But Greece said they wanted all or nothing. They do have replicas so they could do that. The British government is against handing them back wholesale though.
@@mindymorgan8479 you, need to get educated before you make any kind of response. So do the WORLD a favour and sit in the back of the class as you always did.
@@mindymorgan8479 When Greece was under occupation by the ottoman empire as most of Europe was elgin had made a deal with the Turks to take the marbles not with the Greeks, Greece didn't lose the war infact it fought for it's independance after 400 years and was born again as Greece united in 1821 defeating the ottomans. how can you preserve something under occupation. That's like saying that things the nazis stole from X and Y by force back in ww2 and brought back to Germany to stay does that make it right for the Germans to house those stolen treasures today as an example. Eventually, gunpowder the Turks had stored in the Parthenon ignited, blowing out 28 columns, damaging several internal rooms, and killing up to 300 people
@@mindymorgan8479Pretty sad comment! You seem quite ignorant. Did you watch the video with the sound on? You should. You may learn something and stop embarrassing yourself.
As a classicist by vocation, I am pleased to see you tackle this topic... I come to your channel for my chosen avocation, Tudor stuff 😊 as to where they belong, obviously the artefacts belong at home in Athens, but as "possession is nine-tenths of the law" it doesn't seem like they'll be moved any time soon...
Although I’m primarily here for your royal history videos, particularly Tudor and Art, I almost fell off my chair when this one came up! I was JUST talking with my brother about these marbles last week! I mentioned seeing these while visiting London and he told me this very story!
OH WOW! THANK SO YOU MUCH THERESA for such a generous gift, especially at this time of year when I know people have more expenses. I hope you enjoyed the video and that (if you celebrate Christmas) you have a lovely one and a happy new year.
Yes, I agree (which I didn't expect to when I started researching this, as initially I believed the BM's assertions that the acquisition was all above board).
@@HistoryCalling yeah, i thought elgin did have permission prior to watching your video, but i did know about how badly they were treated in recovery and transport. It is a shame that we can't see them the way they were in the past, before the munition explosion.
Thanks Theresa. I can't help but think that's what will eventually happen, especially after recent scandals at the BM about how they care for their items (or rather, don't notice when a couple of thousand of them go missing and then ignore warnings about it when it's brought to their attention).
well done HC, i honestly didn’t even know this was a controversy! it seems more fitting that they be in Greece when it first comes to find. whether stolen or not, i agree with you in sharing some pity for the workers. hope you have a great holiday!
My first reaction would be to return them and everything around the world to be returned to their originals owners. But considering the state of the world today and in the future, it would be best to leave things scattered around the globe to perhaps save ancient articles if disaster should hit. Look at what the Taliban did to the Giant Buddhas of Bamiyan statues and museum's holdings 20 years ago. The Library of Alexandria, the greatest library in the world, was destroyed by fire. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
Yes, I agree. We don't live in an ideal world & history hasn't stopped being made. I've no doubt there are many, many examples like those you mention; for me the damage done in the museum of Cairo came to mind, also this channel has a video about the Amber Room. There is no perfect solution here but I'm not going to defend or apologise for dubious happenings in the past. Attitudes are ever-changing; as are borders.
I'm from London, I visit the British Museum a couple of times a year. I don't even bother visiting the marbles, not when there is vastly superior British stuff in the museum such as Sutton Hoo, the Battersea and Witham shields and so on. If we dumped the marbles we could fill all that valuable space with, much better British exhibits that haven't got a home yet..
I'm of two minds on these things - one side is that they were stolen and need to be returned, but the other is that more people will see them in the more visited museum. They remind me of the Henry VIII letters the Vatican has. They were stolen from England and need to be returned, but also that the Vatican has stored them well.
Not stolen -Lord Elgin got the Porte's permission (The Ottoman government) to take the marbles - the Turks were grateful for the British in saving them from Napoleon and the French and were eager to repay them -Elgin was the British ambassador. Later in the century the same Ottoman Turks allowed the Germans (by then their close allies) to take the Pergamum altar back to Berlin where it still is -every bit as magnificent as the Elgin marbles but Pergamum a Greek city is now in today's Turkey.(Bergama) Why doesn't Turkey demand it back - because it's Greek stuff!
@kaloarepo288 except they were stolen, as explained in the video. So your argument crumbles, and they should be returned. Should the letters of Henry VIII be returned? Sure. Does anybody outside Britain care about those letters? Absolutely not. Does anybody outside Greece and Britain care about the marbles? Yes - those are part and parcel of the humanity's history. H VIII is not - he's just a horny king who killed 3 wives.
Yes, good point. There were only 1.4 million visitors to the Acropolis Museum June 2016 to May 2017 (not including visitors to the Acropolis itself). In 2019 there were over 6 million to the British Museum, about a half from abroad. There's a charge to enter the museum in Athens while the British Museum is free.
Somebody a while back rather aptly compared the imperative to return all artefacts to their country of origin to the Last Judgement and the corporeal resurrection of the dead to their original state - the DNA of our bodies has been so constantly been reused by others by means of natural recycling of elements that working out which bit of dna belongs to which body would be well nigh impossible - I'm reminded of the artefact found in the ruins of Elam a civilisation in what is now Iran - the stele was looted from Mesopotamia (Iraq) by a victorious Elamite king and ended up there - who has greater right to it Iran or Iraq?@@andrewwilliams3137
Thank you for the wonderful history lesson, and I'm for returning these precious pieces of history to. the Athenians. I can't wait to enjoy your video on the Library of Alexandria.
These are pieces of a whole and logic says they should be reunited where they started. However, looking at history in Greece over the last 300 years it's possible they could have been irreversibly damaged or stolen without being able to be traced. So this may sound elitist but maybe it was good they've been in safe keeping. But is it time to return them now? Probably Excellent episode BTW. Lol. You really did great! Lvya much
Considering that the remaining artwork on the building not only remained in Athens, but even is in a better state than that in Britain, it's obvious that the marbles didn't need to go broken off violently and shipped to England to be "saved". They'd have been safer in Athens.
@@helgaioannidis9365 The Parthenon Marbles that remained suffered from serious air pollution and acid rain until they were housed in the Acropolis Museum in 1993. "The west frieze was largely left intact by Elgin’s workmen, but they did take moulds of it. Comparison between those and the next set of moulds, taken in the early 1870s, shows significant damage to the surfaces, as well as the loss of some distinct features, such as heads, which may have been caused by the bombardments of 1821 and 1826-7". See Sir Noel Malcolm's 2023 pamphlet on the Elgin Marbles.
@@andrewwilliams3137 the marbles in the British Museum were also damaged by pollution and by improper "restauration" techniques. Those that remained in Athens still show original chiseling and residue of the original colouring, which is not the case for those in the British museum. Also Elgin damaged the building and the sculptures when he had them violently broken off the building and cut into pieces for the transport.
Happy Friday. Great video. This reminds me when I went to Olympia Greece and tour the location of the first Olympics. There was rumble everywhere and a building of statues and artifacts. Yes . They should go back to Greece
Why not have every museum return all non-native artifacts to their country of origin? That way if you want to see Greek sculptures you have to go to Greece, or if you want to see Indian artifacts you have to go to India. In my mind this is about modern tourism and the income generated from that, not so-called "cultural heritage". Greek people valued their "cultural heritage" so much they plundered the Parthenon for building materials! This has happened in every country in the world. Stuff happens in 2000 years, or even 200. Let sleeping dogs lie, and let modern laws govern how art is purchased/stored/displayed/taxed. I think it's great that people are following what happened to art plundered by the Nazis, but that is recent history, not the distant past.
Well I don't mind a Museum having something created elsewhere if it was purchased or gifted fair and square, but I do take issue with stolen items and I think the world is heading in the direction of giving those items back where possible.
I think the average Greek person sees this more as a matter of national pride rather than as an economic/financial matter, although perhaps the Greek government thinks more in those terms (and anyway, is Greece really lacking for tourists?). Pick an average Greek off the street and ask him/her about it and yes, the main arguments will be about cultural heritage and national pride. I also think most Greeks see it this way: permission to take the marbles was granted by a foreign occupying force, one that we hated and later fought a revolution to overthrow (I realise all of this is thinking in hindsight, and may not reflect how people felt/thought back then - we are talking about the modern Greek person). As such, it is seen as an illegitimate action, as it was perpetrated by those to whom they never belonged in the first place (again, I realise this sentiment may have no legal validity - I am just explaining what the sentiment is). As for Greeks plundering the Parthenon for building materials, Greece at the time the marbles were taken was pretty poor and backwards, the majority of the population was poorly educated (if at all), and they cared more about survival than preserving some old temple whose significance was unknown to them - I don't think that should be held against us centuries later, when we now clearly very much care about it.
@@babablacksheepdog Thanks for taking the time to explain your point of view. I think at some point people have to draw a line about about rehashing events that happened in the past, though. Lord Elgin sounds like he may have pulled a fast one but it also sounds like there was bribery and corruption going on in Athens, too. Who would have thought? We can't rewrite history. Nobody knew at that time that Greece would be an independent nation again. It's possible that Elgin thought he was "saving" the sculptures from a worse fate. The Parthenon was in pretty rough shape what with explosions, weather, wars, "recycling", etc. It has had to be rebuilt and restored more than once. Thank goodness so much of it is still there to be enjoyed by the current Greek nation and the world! I think there is a great advantage in having this display of Greek art in London, available to be studied and enjoyed by people who will never get a chance to visit Greece themselves.
@@HistoryCalling I know what you mean. I watch some channels and as soon as they do something else ~ the replies are "I watch you 0nly for your stories, don't change the program pls." 🤔 Lol. Just know I enjoy your uploads every time. Merry Christmas from across the pond.🎄🎄🎄
My feeling are this. *according to the laws attitudes and custom of the time* the antiquities were at the whim of the Sultan, to whom they belonged, in his mind, as the spoils of conquest, and I believe he didnt care for such idols and was almost certainly happy for Elgin to help himself, a handy way to forge cooperation with Britain. It was no skin off his nose. I dont think the Sultan would care who was then the owner- the Ambassador or the British State, and the plundering of foreign antiquities was an obsession in the 18th/19th century. Of course the marbles should be repatriated now. We have 3d scanning and printing. The past is the past and even if the pertinent documents were traceable the right thing to do now is create copies and return the originals to where they can be seen in context, in the hands of responsible conservators in their country of origin. The details of the 18thcentury transaction/arrangement is irrelevant now. Attitudes and policy change. The Greek people now have a voice
If it were postulated that museums should return all objects not native to their own countries, in some cases it would be very difficult to determine who should receive them.
Maybe museums should only return items where there is a definite claim of ownership and keep items that can’t be definitely said to belong to anyone else.
Interesting and complicated topic. In my opinion, artefacts should be returned to the country of origin, provided that country is able to conserve, and/or display the objects. Hellas is a modern country, which is able to do so. On the other side, many countries are still not able to. An example is Iraq, where many atrefacts were stolen or destroyed, as a result of the wars. I guess many African countries are the same. We also know that many religious states will destroy arterfacts, for being "heathen" or "blasphmous", like Taliban demolishing Buddha statues in 2001, for being non Islamic. So it seems that each case needs aa individual evaluation. That national feelings, or pride get into it, doesn't make it easier.... Thanks, again. More of these, please...
It’s a tricky one. Maybe the best answer is that putting the marbles in the British Museum was the right thing to do at the time because they wouldn’t have been properly cared for in Greece, but now that Greece has an appropriate museum for them, the right thing would be to display them there instead.
How was keeping the marbles in some Earl's garden going to preserve them better than if they were left in Athens? They weren't moved to UK to be preserved, they were moved there to grace some stately home of an aristocrat. They only ended up in the BM because the man ran out of money - they should be returned to their lawful home.
I never knew that entrance to the British Museum is free; that is terrific. Most museums in the US have fairly expensive entrance fees. The Ringling Museum in Sarasota, FL has a free day for the art museum on Mondays (because circus people usually had Mondays off and very little disposable income), and the grounds are always free (a beautiful picnic spot). I think that all museums should have at least one free entrance day in order to give everyone the opportunity to visit no matter their financial situation.
Thank you for another well researched topic. Im inclined to agree that they should be handed back, but I have strong doubts about whether they ever will be. The slippery slope argument has world-wide implications, and I cant see how the current owners, both public and private, of vast collections of looted antiquity, across the globe, can be compelled to pack up their treasures and send them back to their original homes. The provenance of the marbles is well known, and, as you rightly argue, it is clear that they were looted, but returning them sets a precedent that museums everywhere must be conscious of when looking at their own collections. What happens when countries require the return of objects that have more ambiguous provenance? What about antiquities that are in private hands, and people/organisations have paid huge sums for them, in good faith that it was legal to do so? I'm sure that there is a solution, but it is going to need to involve a broad agreement. One that I'm not sure the world is ready to accept.
we have the technology to laser scan and reproduce the marbles in minute detail - the Greeks might even pay for it if they were given the original marbles back - of course the Rosetta Stone would be next though - amazing detail in the content as always HC - ty
Yes, we could certainly do that and I even wonder if it wasn't for all the controversy around them, how much would Britons even miss them? I'd never heard of them until they were on the news for instance. I think they mean far more to Greece and understandably so.
@@chrisbanks6659 Is it though? It - along with its 'sister stones' - was commissioned by a Greek-speaking dynasty of Macedonian stock and was the product of a thoroughly Hellenised Egypt. It might be entertaining if the British Museum renounced ownership of the Rosetta Stone, quoted Alexander the Great's dying words of 'to the strongest', and watched Egypt and Greece battle it out to be the new owners 🤣
As someone from Britain who has seen the marbles in person (although it was 8 years ago; I was a 10 y/o boy, I can't really remember it all too well), I believe they should be returned to Greece. As with the one statue of a lady who has been separated from her three other "sisters" (I'm pretty sure the statues are called the 4 sisters on Greece, I may be wrong). Also, I've seen the Giant's Causeway. It was pretty great; I slipped over on a wet stone and landed straight on my bottom, 11 y/o me was not impressed! 😂
Hello history calling, again. In one of my stories, my creative character travels through time. He slaps Oliver Cromwell, he engaged in A fight with Peter the great of Russia and richard III of England.
I think because I live in the United States and see Native American pain over their artifacts being in museums (I follow someone on Twitter who went to the British Museum and was like "stopped by to visit my family's stuff!") I also tend to be very "give it back" about museums in general. When I was studying at my university I initially was planning to become a curator but pulled back from that because I didn't feel right about it. I think there's value in museums but the way things have been gathered for them historically is a huge ethical mess.
I never knew the whole story before so thanks for this video. What will happen if the British Museum returns the Marble to Greece ? It would be a precedent for future cases and other countries will require their artifacts, not only from British Museum but also from the other ones and this can lead to serious problems.
What serious problems? Serious challenges, yes, for sure, but why problems? It would be such an excellent, invigorating, fascinating way for museums like the BM and Louvre to acknowledge that their own history is very complicated (what history isn't?) and that things have been done in the name of preservation and empire which shouldn't have. What is the function of a museum, in these modern times where pretty much all historical artefacts can be viewed on the internet and there is so much more geographical mobility? This is a question to which the answer(s) could be connected to this issue; a modern museum could be one that tells the story of itself, of how historical study is not exempt from prejudice and criminal activity, and how these thorny issues were solved and handled in a spirit of international cooperation and a belief in global culture. Wouldn't it be glorious if rather than denying that many of their artefacts were stolen or acquired under murky circumstances, the curators and researchers connected to these museums were able/allowed (because it's not just them ofc, politicians play a role) to acknowledge this and work with the international scholarly community to set standards, conditions, agreements, and plans for the return of such artefacts to their home (providing that home is stable; this could be one if the things that is a condition), where they really do belong and will have the greatest impact? In return I'm certain elegant solutions could be set up that would leave the European museums no poorer (a loaning schedule for certain pieces, the possibility of taking detailed copies, etc). Perhaps this is naive but this sounds to me like a much better and sustainable way for museums to go into the 21st century; their role is changing and will change, and if they don't take ownership of that I do think they might become what many people already think they are, stuffy relics of a bygone age, clinging desperately to a superiority that leaves a bitter taste in the mouth to see.
I don’t get why something from halfway across the world would be in the BRITISH museum? We have so much amazing archeological history in this country, why is room being taken up by another country’s history? Send the items back and replace the displays with displays on Roman Britain, pre-Christian Celtic artefacts, Iron Age tools, displays on whether or not King Arthur was real, or information on any of the kings, queens and fascinating historical figures we have in the U.K. There is no reason for non British artefacts to be in a museum that is supposed to celebrate British culture
Good. Then they can make exhibits displaying their OWN history and not other people’s history. There is no more excuse for the U.K. to have the sculptures than for Stonehenge to be shipped to India.
A great overview of a thorny issue. Anyone with the correct insight of the facts and a sense of what is ethically right will conclude that these priceless pieces of heritage belong in Athens. I've seen the originals in the UK and the copies and empty spaces in the (truly wonderful) Acropolis museum. I feel if the British were able to acknowledge some of the less savoury parts of their imperial history, the door could open to a wonderful cooperation between the two museums to ensure that the marbles could go home, but the BM would have access to them for loans, study, copies etc. Sadly it doesn't look like this will happen soon.
I felt how completely ignorant I was about the museum's subject. So I just learn a lot from your detailed information. Thank you very much. I wish you a Happy New Year !
Frankly it's abhorrent by the Brits to keep these artifacts that do not belong to them infact they are a piece of Greece and need to be reunited as the restoration of the once great monument is underway. The fact they do not return the marbles show how the brittish museum and government disregard a monument that is a symbol and the pinnacle of western civilization. They are jealous of the fact they have no culture or rich history of arts and music and all things depicting beauty.
@@HistoryCalling It's all Greek to me!! A subject close to my heart. I sit on the fence on this one - we own a small property on one of the Greek Islands and am loath to speak either way.
I always love these videos of yours. Where you get us to think about the entire purpose of archaeology. What is preservation if it’s completely removed from the original location and the original intent? How can we define preservation if it’s on our terms and not the original? Removal of sacred objects, religious relics, buried bodies in another’s land without returning them because “finder’s keepers” is, in my eyes, completely disrespectful and unethical. With all the technology we have today, we can make 3D computer renderings and 100% accurate physical reconstructions. Why are the Athenians left to make the reconstruction while the originals bring in millions of pounds to the UK through tourism alone? It isn’t just the British Museum benefitting. It’s all the nearby places to stay, restaurants to eat, and the hundreds of thousands of other attractions that people visit the UK for.
Elgin made plaster casts of everything, the Acropolis Museum displays some of these. The casts made in 1812 show how the remaining marbles were degraded and vandalized, they were not displayed in the Acropolis Museum until 1993.
Excellent and thoughtful analysis. I think that the marbles should be returned to Greece. However, the British museum can't give them back without inviting a tidal wave of demands from countries all over the world. Every major museum would feel the effect. Sadly, everyone is stuck with the fallout of Thomas Bruce's sketchy dealings.
A similar situation is with the Iranian royal regalia and imperial throne - in 1739 the Iranian shah Nader conducted a lightning raid into Mughal India and sacked Delhi carrying away all the incredibly valuable throne furniture and imperial regalia of the Mughal emperors and the loot - the Peacock throne is still in Tehran as part of the Iranian imperial set up. Should Iran restore all the stuff to India???>?
Britain should scrap the price of visas though, costs an actual fortune to visit the museum. Perspective a familys whole grocery costs for 2 months. So not entirely free...
Elgin shipped the Marbles to the UK 1802-1812 over a 10 year period. Difficult to believe that the local and central Ottoman government didn't know about it. There were no complaints raised at the time or in 1816 when they were sold to the British Museum.
I have been training to be a docent at a small, but amazing, museum in central Massachusetts where I live. The provenance of an artwork has been an important part of our study, and even our museum has not been immune to international notoriety on this topic. It's important to do the right thing and give the work back to the country of origin, especially if it was taken under suspicious circumstances, and to try to prove otherwise, by diminishing the abilities of the country of origin to properly care for the art, leaves me speechless. I agree with you. Britain must return the Parthenon Marbles.
I have to say that the Parthenon Marbles were stolen and should be returned to the Greek Museum near the Parthenon. However, I don’t know if this can be done without causing irreparable damage. Those stones are part of our history. I do hope it can be done. It’s so sad seeing people have no regard for our history. Thank you for the history lesson. Have a good weekend.
With modern scanning and laser printing technology, I'm firmly of the opinion that the British Museum should make copies and send the originals back. That would allow much more in-depth study to be done on them - overlaying the 'naked' marble with projections of their original painted forms, for example - and enhance the museum's existing claims with regards to education. Greece gets their stuff back, the British get to do something new to bring in new vistors... everyone wins. (Even if the BM doesn't make any copies though, it's still not their stuff. Send it back.)
Curious issue about architecture - they are made to function as shelter, to house, to fortify or sanctify what the human decides - they are not ‘art’ as we think in the modern sense (ie having no other purpose but to look appealing). But, once that architectural structure ceases TO function it loses its viability - the Parthenon, thru no fault of its own - human politics did the damage - lost increasing levels of viability with the Greeks loss of autonomy, to Rome, and most especially to the Ottomans who had no connection culturally, religiously or ethnically to anything on or attached yo the Parthenon. When the roof blew off the temple, also thru no fault of the structure’s own limitations - that sealed its fate: look around, what structure can you find without a roof, that still functions as … anything? It is now open to vandalism, graffiti, abuse of theft, looting … whatever was left at the Parthenon, as at the Acropolis as a whole, was to put it crudely, ‘fair game’ and treated as such by any chancer, any well meaning ‘archaeologist’ (same thing??), any visiting tourist (Hmm, same thing?), any curious soul with the income and time to exploit the situation. One could say the same thing about the ‘ruins’ also being excavated from 1760’s in the area of Pompeii, (Herculaneum, Boscoreale et al ) - the Bourbons dragged up everything they fancies and put in their private museum - the Murats opened these museum galleries and presented them to the Neapolitans as THEIR heritage, the returning Bourbons took it all back in 1816, even the reclamation projects Caroline Bonaparte Murat personally financed on behalf of the people of Naples. Leland Roth wrote an excellent book on the realities of architecture, I use it with my students, to explain just how a structure such as the Parthenon, like so much of our current cities, simply transform from viable to irrelevant, seemingly overnight, just by losing their roof.
There is an ongoing debate in the media regarding whether the Elgin Marbles should be returned to Greece. Personally, I find myself indifferent to the outcome of this discussion, as I have never had the opportunity to visit the British Museum and have no plans to do so in the future. However, I hold the understanding that the Elgin Marbles were acquired by Lord Elgin, who reportedly compensated the authorities for them. Furthermore, my belief is that the government at that time conducted an investigation to determine the fairness of the acquisition, ultimately concluding that it was legitimate and just. Given these circumstances, one might question why there is a push to return the marbles to Greece when they seem to rightfully belong to the United Kingdom.
Currently the culture minister of Britain recently suggested thT they can be borrowed to Greece as long Greece recognises them first as property of British Museum. Says also that they were legally aquired and payed for ... The lack of shame of these people colours whole of Britain as Thieves as long Brittish Government does back up Brittish Museum. When you buy something from a thief , even if you payed and have receipt as long it is considered illegally aquired by him you count as a fence so a thief too. Simple as that
I think i am more of a " let them stay where they lay" person. Look at the extreme damage that has been done trying to move them.... another disaster could remove them from us completely. Also, that they have ended up in england is a potent part of human history, too. As long as the whole horrible story is told, it might be worth it. If they were in Greece, would we ever have heard you tell this story??😢
@@LenaFerrari Exactly, this is about tourism $$$ not "cultural heritage". Only half of the Parthenon marbles survived the 2000 years in Athens due to war, weathering, accidents, and the local population pilfering them for building materials.
Yes, it's true that the publicity they garner due to the dispute over them is what has made them extra famous at the moment and had it not been for that I may not have thought to do a video on them. It's a complex debate, I grant you.
Another great one. I do agree with you that they should go back to Greece where they belong. The Ottoman didn't have the right to sell or give something they didn't own. This has happened too much in the past with other countries occupying other countries or even scientist taking things for the pretense of it needing to be study. Just so wrong.
I am in favor of the marbles being returned to Greece. Can't the British Museum make copies of the statues and the frieze, or have a holographic display?
Before even getting too deep in to this video - why does Britain think it has a right to own these? It should be a very simple discussion: things were different before, you came by these in an unethical manner, and continuing to insist that you maintain possession now that we’ve asked for them back is wildly pompous of you. Get off that high horse, and give back what is rightfully ours.
Personally, I'd like to see ownership of the marbles given back to Greece, particularly the museum, and that the British Museum be given the right to display them in perpetuity with the acknowledgement that all signage be rewritten to indicate they are on loan to the museum by the Greek government. This would show proper ownership and assure that more people are able to see these great works.
I think the best argument is that the Ottomans didn’t have the moral authority to give permissions for Greek things to be looted. If Greece has a state of the art display and care plan available, then there is no real danger to them now. And the British museum can 3D scan the marbles and keep copies on display while documenting the story. This could even perhaps lead to a loan of the marbles still in Greek possession to the British museum for a limited time. Subjects like this are very complex and nuanced and we need only look at the immeasurable loss of artifacts in territory claimed by ISIS in the recent past to understand just how much can be lost in such a short time.
I know. It's terrible to look at the losses incurred through the actions of terrorist groups. It just breaks my heart. Even the ancients often had more respect for historical objects than that. :-(
I can’t help but compare the throne of Henry VIII (conquest + laws/parliament) and the situation with the marbles. Even though Henry didn’t have the best “blood” claim he won by conquest mostly with the parliament on his side. I also think many(most?) of the marbles would be lost to profiteering if they hadn’t been moved and protected. Probably an unpopular opinion! Either way it is very good to exchange ideas and constructive debate about such subjects. Great research as always HC.
Six million people visit the British Museum--per year, for free. Six milliion people also visit Athens, and have to *pay* to visit the Parthenon Museum. I think I understand Greece's motivation.
Stolen? This is in the eye of the beholder. Elgin was granted permission to remove most of these by Ottoman Turkish government of the time that ruled Greece and had for several hundred years. That the Turks did not give the Greeks a vote on the matter at the time is irrelevant. Had the marbles been left where they were most likely they may not be around today due to weathering and air pollution. The question of whether the British should now return them to Greece is another question. But if every piece of art had to be returned to its place of origin it would certainly empty out most of the world's great museums. Send the Mona Lisa back to Italy? Send the treasures of King Tut back to his tomb? Send the horses on top of St. Mark's in Venice back to Istanbul?
I don't think everything has to go back to its country of origin if it was legally acquired, but as I explain in the video Elgin was actually not granted the kind of wide-ranging permissions that he said he was. As for the idea that the Marbles would have been lost had they stayed in Greece, the fact that the rest of them are still in Greece and are fine suggests that that statement to be wrong. Elgin basically dumped them in a friend's back yard and left the British climate (far less forgiving than the Greek) to damage them even further. The Tut artefacts are in the possession of Egypt as far as I know and some material (including the mummy) was put back in the tomb. There has also been water damage to the tomb since it was discovered, making it inappropriate to store a large number of objects in. I don't know the history of the Mona Lisa or the St Mark's horses off the top of my head, so can't comment on them.
@@HistoryCalling The Mona Lisa (which everyone seems to bring up in arguments regarding the Parthenon marbles) was actually bought by the French King Francis I from either Leonardo himself or from one of his pupils who inherited it from Leonardo when he passed away. So very much legitimately acquired. Also, Leonardo spent the last years of his life in France under the patronage of that same king, so even though the Mona Lisa was most likely not painted there, France was one of the countries where he lived and produced art, and as such he is very much a part of its cultural heritage. The horses of St Mark's were taken by the Venetians from the Hippodrome of Constantinople during one of the crusades. The country/empire they were taken from (the Eastern Roman aka Byzantine Empire) no longer exists, and neither does the Hippodrome as a complete monument, so not sure where they would be returned to.
@@HistoryCallingThere was no ‘pearl clutching’ scandal at the time as to the legitimacy of Elgin’s actions for the obvious reason that nothing illegal had taken place by the mores of the time. As to rewriting past history, now that really is a slippery slope.
A set of casts of the Parthenon Marbles is in NYC at the Graduate Center-CUNY on 5th Ave at 34th for those who want to see them. They arrived in NYC around 1850'sih and are are in the lobby of the CUNY building and free to the public to view. I think a copy of the marbles could be carefully made for the British Museum to keep with the originals returned to Greece.
We also have some plaster casts of the Elgin marbles at the Western Australian Museum, they arrived in the 1890's, I think. Much sought after at the time, when there was a great respect for the Ancient Greek origins of much of Western civilization.
I don't agree with what Elgin did; however, I do believe that they are housed safely at the British Museum, and transit of these fragile stones would result in further damage. On a side-note, the statue of Byron depicts a very handsome man. I've heard that he was quite a philanderer. Please could you do a documentary on him? I think he was a very interesting man. Love his poems
Nothing is safely housed in a museum which has a leaking roof and from which over 2000 artefacts have been stolen. Plus because of the wrong restoration techniques used in the previous years, the marbles in the british museum were badly damaged. They belong to the Acropolis museum.
Probably because there aren’t as many there. The bulk is in the British Museum so they get the bulk of the vitriol. France should return their marbles as well but for now the British are getting the heat.
I must say that I agree that all antiquities that were unlawfully taken from any other country should be returned. If the legal Government gave or sold antiquiities to another country, that country has no obligation to return same. The British Museum does indeed have many antiquities which were stolen or pillaged from other countries and which should be returned.
I get really annoyed by people using the "slippery slope" argument. Oh no, how awful would it be for countries to have their stuff returned to them! If someone stole your stuff and then refused to return it because "well then everything I own would have to go to", you'd recognise that is a stupid argument. Return the marbles. Return the Rosetta Stone. I'm glad the Benin Bronzes are going back home. Also what the hell is the argument about modern Greece not being Ancient Greece therefore they shouldn't have them? You do realise that also makes the British even less qualified to own the marbles since they're even further from Ancient Greece than the modern Greeks are? Also, the modern Greeks are the Ancient Greeks direct descendants and it can be proven through genetics.
We have the technology now to create almost exact replicas of pretty much anything we want. Make copies to put on display and send the originals back. The Rosetta Stone on display is a replica, as visitors kept breaking bits off as souvenirs, so why not other statues and objects?
I agree that the collection should be returned to Athens. I also understand that the Turks referred to them as "idols" in the paperwork presented in this video and we saw that the Turks had used the temple as a military storage site. These facts offer context that we may not appreciate in our time. The use of the term "idols" may indicate that the Islamic Turkish officials considered the items blasphemous. If they hadn't been purchased and sent to London they may not have survived to the present. Think of all the priceless artifacts in Syria and Iraq that the world could have saved if ISIS had sold them to foreign museums. The fact that Elgin was able to purchase them may reinforce the idea that the Turks looked at them with contempt.
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They should definitely go back to Greece, EVERYTHING snatched from other countries/cultures should be returned
The “it was totally legal” argument is nonsense, utter nonsense-getting legal approval from your corrupt/colonial system for being an egregious imperialist . . . Sure . . .
It’s such a travesty that the British Museum is acting like anything other than the Nazi’s who pillaged and stole culturally significant artifacts and art - they don’t have a moral leg to stand on and I think more pressure should be put on them and the British monarchy to send back some of their jewels
Also they need to fully relinquish the Stone of Scone to Scotland - this attitude of “well violence was ok back then so we’re going to keep it until you pull it out of our dead white racists hands” is SUCH AN EMBARRASSMENT
While I do think they should go back to Greece, when it comes to the Stone of Scone that has gone back to Scotland. It only comes back to England for coronations which I actually think is quite a nice way of making those ceremonies more inclusive of Scotland, though of course you are free to disagree with me on that. I also don't think it's fair to say that the issue around the Stone was anything to do with racism. Scotland is part of the UK and both Scotland and England are made up primarily of white people. I can't see how racism comes into it. The current royals are even descended from the Scottish Stuarts and the Queen Mother was Scottish.
I look forward to seeing the bits of Acropolis sitting around various parts of the globe put back into their place on the Acropolis in Greece. Since it's the right thing to do, however, I doubt it will ever happen. I was enjoying your narrative but had to stop the video because all the horizontal and vertical scrolling of the camera was making me motion sick. Hope you have a great weekend!
They should be returned to Greece. They were stolen.
I had no opinion previously, cos I knew I was completely ignorant, but it does sound exceptionally dodgy- the British government just taking what it wanted, then passing _their own laws_ to make the theft "legal". I don't think that's how it should work! None of the arguments to keep them in the UK really hold up, so I'd say they should probably go back.
I'd always known them as the "Elgin Marbles", but with no idea where the name came from, so I was very interested to find out, & I'll stop calling them by the name of the guy who stole them. I'd fight anyone who called the Stone of Scone "the Edward I Stone", & I'm not even Scottish, so I'm not going to insult the Greek people like that.
I have visited Athens and the acropolis a number of times now, first in 1974 ad then again in 2012, 2018. I mention that time line because back in 1974 the acropolis was largely open to the visitors with access to the monuments and tickets purchased from a small timber hut. Back then I would suggest that the marbles were best displayed in the British Museum. However since then there has been much work carried out by the Greeks as they seek to restore much of the Parthenon and on my last visit I was able to visit the new Museum described in this video. There you can view many of the works saved from the Acropolis whilst being able to look across and see original place where these marble carvings once stood. My attitude like the narrators, has now changed and in my view there is a clearly appropriate place to house the Elgin Marbles. It is worth pointing out that at the Acropolis Museum there is a scaled down sculpture of both end pediments east ad west, these give a complete image of how the pediments would have appeared. Would it not be possible for replications to be original marbles to be provided for the British Museum whilst the originals could be returned to the New Acropolis Museum in Athens where it overlooks the monuments that comprise the sacred Athenian sanktury.
You make sense and you appear to be an honest person. Thank you.
I agree with you. With today’s technology many relics can be recreated and the originals returned to the rightful owners especially if they have museums, etc., to display them.
Yes, like the casts in the V&A Museum
Very expensive and for sure bad for the status of the exponents as history calling mentioned. Never steal in the first place and not try to find any justifications!
New museum in Greece can now safely house Marbles of Pidias.Time to send them home to Athens.
Beautifully presented! You have outdone yourself with this meticulous examination of the issue, and the fact that you changed your own opinion in the course of studying it. That's the sign of a truly objective scholar! From the first time I saw them, I have always felt the Museum's claim that it alone could take proper care of the marbles was completely bogus. After visiting some gorgeous state-of-the-art museums in Greece, I'm even more convinced that the marbles should go home. Perhaps the king, with his strong interest in historic preservation, might someday add his voice to those calling for a review of the legal restrictions preventing the Museum from doing, as I strongly believe, the right thing. We can only hope.
Thanks Ann. Yes, it is very rare for me to do such a U-turn, but the more I read into it the more horrified I was at how they ended up in the BM in the first place. I see no reason Greece can't care for its own artefacts.
You say "I have always felt the Museum's claim that it alone could take proper care of the marbles was completely bogus". When have they ever claimed that? The British Museum purchased the Elgin Marbles in 1816 and have owned them for over 200 years.
I saw a sign beside the marbles in 1961, making that claim.
@@annmoore6678 I see. Well the remaining marbles weren't moved into the Acropolis Museum until 1993 and the Athens city smog in the 1960's was detrimental to their conservation. Elgin made plaster casts and these show how the remaining marbles have been degraded and vandalized. There was a study in 2019 into this by Dr Emma Payne at Kings College.
I’m an archaeologist- they’re stolen. Even ignoring the sketchiness of translation of a translation documentation, that permit didn’t give Elgin permission to remove materials from the site, let alone from the building itself.
I work in Pompeii- out permits say we’re allowed to excavate in particular locations, meaning we can dig and move materials around unimpeded. This does NOT mean we’re allowed to remove materials from the site or the country; it’s implicitly understood that that would be BAD, and definitely not covered by our permits. The fact that Elgin used that kind of logic to justify his theft shows how underhanded his intentions were.
I ended coming to that conclusion too.
Agreed. 🥂 Return the hoarded loot.
💜💜💜
Agreed. The need to be repatriated, like so many other items. The argument the British Museum makes for keeping the Marbles is archaic. What ever they think or thought was agreed upon at the time, does not matter and it does not make it right.
I don’t think anyone truly believes anything other than they were stolen
Historian to historian, your channel is one of my absolute favorites. This is one of the aspects of museums that I’m very passionate about and you did it so much justice. Thank you.
You are a great historian and a hard worker! Very sensible and wise! Thank you for bringing history to me at my age of 59! Wish you and your loved ones a Merry Christmas!
Loving this Ancient Greek history!
Thank you. It's something a bit different for me.
I am so pleased -- and not at all surprised -- that, after doing thorough research, you come down on the side of returning the art to Greece. I couldn't agree more: it is the ethical thing to do. May it become possible.
I appreciate that you always give us facts and that you cite your findings. You put so much research into your content and it shows.
Would LOVE more Greek history videos! Very fascinating.
Good evening to history calling from Bea
Hi Bea. An historical controversy for you this week, all about the Parthenon Marbles.
I was JUST at the British Museum three days ago and saw all of these. Thank you for covering this so carefully.
As always, a brilliantly researched and compelling video. Thank you for putting such effort into presenting a balanced and well thought out view about such an important issue. I am Greek....we want our Parthenon statues back. They must be returned to their true home.
Should have protected them while you had them.
@@mindymorgan8479 With all due respect Mindy....blow it out your arse! The marbles were ILLEGALLY removed from an archaeological site. By any legal definition that's STEALING.
There is a case to answer that the marbles should not have been removed. However, returning them would set a problematic precedent for many other items held in locations other than those from which they may have originated, and would also obviously deprive politicians of a very nice source of publicity when times are difficult.
Think about your conscience and how clean you will feel knowing you would have undone the crimes which your ancestors have done. Don’t add to this crime, make a difference.
@@tsifty1 No crime was committed.
No one is responsible for what any ancestor may or may not have done, or indeed what anybody else may have done - that kind of thinking is like going back to the dark ages @@tsifty1
@@rickjensen2717 wrong buddy, taking advantage of a situation is not acceptable. Germans had to pay for what they did and they paid, why an exception to British . After all it wasn’t war for them just going and stealing even worst!
@@andrewwilliams3137buying from a thief like Elgin makes British museum a fence .
Thank you for reminding commenters to keep remarks respectful. ❤️
Ancient Greek history can be interesting so thanks
Adam
It really is. This story was very new to me, but it was fascinating to dig into. Hope you enjoy the video :-)
Not can be. Is! 🙂
The most important consideration today is that the sculptures be displayed to their best advantage, which is clearly at the purpose built museum next to the original site.I had always doubted that the marbles were legally obtained in the first place and you have proved conclusively that they weren't - on several grounds. Congratulations for another stirling piece of research!
This case was taken before the European Court of Human Rights who threw it out because they didn't have the jurisdiction to rule on it. There were no laws or international agreements in 1812 affecting the acquisition. If the Greek government could prove they were stolen I'm sure they would have done so.
New pamphlet published 2023 by Policy Exchange authored by Sir Noel Malcolm of All Souls College, Oxford finds:
claim that Elgin’s removal of the sculptures was illegal is false;
claim that his actions were invalidated by bribery is false;
claim that his actions saved the Marbles from an ongoing process of serious damage, dispersal and destruction is certainly true;
Policy Exchange - the right wing think tank funded by oil companies? Why am I not surprised they would come to that conclusion?
You can argue the legalities but the fact remains that the sculptures are best displayed where they belong - in Athens.
@@kevster2171 That's not a fact, that's an opinion. You can't ignore the legalities, the Elgin Marbles belong to the British Museum and have done for over 200 years. As for best displayed, there were only 1.4 million visitors to the Acropolis Museum in June 2016 to May 2017 compared to over 6 million to the British Museum in 2019 about a half from abroad, and you have to pay to enter the museum in Athens while the British Museum is free.
👏👏 I so enjoy rewatching your videos, HC. I always manage to miss details on first viewing. The history of Greece in the Ottoman Empire was something I should have known, but didn't. I also appreciated Lord Byron's response to the whole affair; good quote. I agree with you; the marbles should be returned. Have a great weekend. 🙏🏼
Thanks Stephen. I knew nothing about that either, as I've never really looked at Greek history (bar one semester as an undergrad on ancient Greece). Yes, Byron was often very good for a quote. Have a lovely weekend too :-)
@@HistoryCalling I did love Greek mythology; guess I preferred it to "real" history. 😆
Those are some great (if often tragic) stories :-)
I'm always weirded out when agreeing with Byron, but he was spot on here.
When the poet John Keats saw them in 1817 in the British Museum he was inspired to write "On seeing the Elgin Marbles", they were more accessible in a London museum than as a military citadel in Athens then under the Ottoman Empire.
I heard that the British Museum wanted to loan pieces out to Greece, a few at a time, circulating the loans. But Greece said they wanted all or nothing. They do have replicas so they could do that. The British government is against handing them back wholesale though.
Tell you what, you take the replicas and Greeks take what is there’s all along.
The Greeks should have preserved them while they could. The winners take all or haven't you heard?
@@mindymorgan8479 you, need to get educated before you make any kind of response. So do the WORLD a favour and sit in the back of the class as you always did.
@@mindymorgan8479 When Greece was under occupation by the ottoman empire as most of Europe was elgin had made a deal with the Turks to take the marbles not with the Greeks, Greece didn't lose the war infact it fought for it's independance after 400 years and was born again as Greece united in 1821 defeating the ottomans. how can you preserve something under occupation. That's like saying that things the nazis stole from X and Y by force back in ww2 and brought back to Germany to stay does that make it right for the Germans to house those stolen treasures today as an example. Eventually, gunpowder the Turks had stored in the Parthenon ignited, blowing out 28 columns, damaging several internal rooms, and killing up to 300 people
@@mindymorgan8479Pretty sad comment! You seem quite ignorant. Did you watch the video with the sound on? You should. You may learn something and stop embarrassing yourself.
It’s often said that the only reason the pyramids are still in Egypt is because there was no way to move them to England.
Antiquities were sold quite legally by licensed dealers and even the Egyptian Antiquities Service themselves prior to 1983.
As a classicist by vocation, I am pleased to see you tackle this topic... I come to your channel for my chosen avocation, Tudor stuff 😊 as to where they belong, obviously the artefacts belong at home in Athens, but as "possession is nine-tenths of the law" it doesn't seem like they'll be moved any time soon...
Thanks Monica. Yes, I think it'll be a while before they go anywhere, though I also suspect they'll end back in Greece at some point.
Although I’m primarily here for your royal history videos, particularly Tudor and Art, I almost fell off my chair when this one came up! I was JUST talking with my brother about these marbles last week! I mentioned seeing these while visiting London and he told me this very story!
Excellent overview and helped clarify a lot of points in my mind. I believe that they should be returned to Greece.
Thanks!
OH WOW! THANK SO YOU MUCH THERESA for such a generous gift, especially at this time of year when I know people have more expenses. I hope you enjoyed the video and that (if you celebrate Christmas) you have a lovely one and a happy new year.
@HistoryCalling I always enjoy your videos. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! 😊
Honestly, they should be given back to greece. They never should have been taken to begin with. Taking them caused more damage than just leaving them.
Yes, I agree (which I didn't expect to when I started researching this, as initially I believed the BM's assertions that the acquisition was all above board).
@@HistoryCalling yeah, i thought elgin did have permission prior to watching your video, but i did know about how badly they were treated in recovery and transport. It is a shame that we can't see them the way they were in the past, before the munition explosion.
Hi, I did enjoy it. Your history videos are always enjoyable and wonderful see you next video 😊
Thanks Michelle. Just one more before Christmas now too. I don't know where the year went!
I think they should go back to Greece especially if they can be transported back without damage. Thank you for the awesome video!😊
Thanks Theresa. I can't help but think that's what will eventually happen, especially after recent scandals at the BM about how they care for their items (or rather, don't notice when a couple of thousand of them go missing and then ignore warnings about it when it's brought to their attention).
well done HC, i honestly didn’t even know this was a controversy! it seems more fitting that they be in Greece when it first comes to find. whether stolen or not, i agree with you in sharing some pity for the workers. hope you have a great holiday!
My first reaction would be to return them and everything around the world to be returned to their originals owners. But considering the state of the world today and in the future, it would be best to leave things scattered around the globe to perhaps save ancient articles if disaster should hit. Look at what the Taliban did to the Giant Buddhas of Bamiyan statues and museum's holdings 20 years ago. The Library of Alexandria, the greatest library in the world, was destroyed by fire. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
Yes, I agree. We don't live in an ideal world & history hasn't stopped being made. I've no doubt there are many, many examples like those you mention; for me the damage done in the museum of Cairo came to mind, also this channel has a video about the Amber Room. There is no perfect solution here but I'm not going to defend or apologise for dubious happenings in the past. Attitudes are ever-changing; as are borders.
Ok have it your way, send I’d the crown and a few other British treasures. Just to be safe as you state.
@@tsifty1 Fair point! 😄
I'm from London, I visit the British Museum a couple of times a year. I don't even bother visiting the marbles, not when there is vastly superior British stuff in the museum such as Sutton Hoo, the Battersea and Witham shields and so on. If we dumped the marbles we could fill all that valuable space with, much better British exhibits that haven't got a home yet..
I'm of two minds on these things - one side is that they were stolen and need to be returned, but the other is that more people will see them in the more visited museum. They remind me of the Henry VIII letters the Vatican has. They were stolen from England and need to be returned, but also that the Vatican has stored them well.
Not stolen -Lord Elgin got the Porte's permission (The Ottoman government) to take the marbles - the Turks were grateful for the British in saving them from Napoleon and the French and were eager to repay them -Elgin was the British ambassador. Later in the century the same Ottoman Turks allowed the Germans (by then their close allies) to take the Pergamum altar back to Berlin where it still is -every bit as magnificent as the Elgin marbles but Pergamum a Greek city is now in today's Turkey.(Bergama) Why doesn't Turkey demand it back - because it's Greek stuff!
@kaloarepo288 except they were stolen, as explained in the video. So your argument crumbles, and they should be returned. Should the letters of Henry VIII be returned? Sure. Does anybody outside Britain care about those letters? Absolutely not. Does anybody outside Greece and Britain care about the marbles? Yes - those are part and parcel of the humanity's history. H VIII is not - he's just a horny king who killed 3 wives.
Yes, good point. There were only 1.4 million visitors to the Acropolis Museum June 2016 to May 2017 (not including visitors to the Acropolis itself). In 2019 there were over 6 million to the British Museum, about a half from abroad. There's a charge to enter the museum in Athens while the British Museum is free.
Somebody a while back rather aptly compared the imperative to return all artefacts to their country of origin to the Last Judgement and the corporeal resurrection of the dead to their original state - the DNA of our bodies has been so constantly been reused by others by means of natural recycling of elements that working out which bit of dna belongs to which body would be well nigh impossible - I'm reminded of the artefact found in the ruins of Elam a civilisation in what is now Iran - the stele was looted from Mesopotamia (Iraq) by a victorious Elamite king and ended up there - who has greater right to it Iran or Iraq?@@andrewwilliams3137
Agreed.
As always, a superb video!
Another great story from your channel thanks. Amazing history.
Thank you for the wonderful history lesson, and I'm for returning these precious pieces of history to. the Athenians. I can't wait to enjoy your video on the Library of Alexandria.
These are pieces of a whole and logic says they should be reunited where they started. However, looking at history in Greece over the last 300 years it's possible they could have been irreversibly damaged or stolen without being able to be traced. So this may sound elitist but maybe it was good they've been in safe keeping. But is it time to return them now? Probably
Excellent episode BTW. Lol. You really did great! Lvya much
Considering that the remaining artwork on the building not only remained in Athens, but even is in a better state than that in Britain, it's obvious that the marbles didn't need to go broken off violently and shipped to England to be "saved". They'd have been safer in Athens.
@@helgaioannidis9365 👍 agreed
@@helgaioannidis9365 The Parthenon Marbles that remained suffered from serious air pollution and acid rain until they were housed in the Acropolis Museum in 1993. "The west frieze was largely left intact by Elgin’s workmen, but they did take moulds of it. Comparison between those and the next set of moulds, taken in the early 1870s, shows significant damage to the surfaces, as well as the loss of some distinct features, such as heads, which may have been caused by the bombardments of 1821 and 1826-7". See Sir Noel Malcolm's 2023 pamphlet on the Elgin Marbles.
@@andrewwilliams3137 the marbles in the British Museum were also damaged by pollution and by improper "restauration" techniques.
Those that remained in Athens still show original chiseling and residue of the original colouring, which is not the case for those in the British museum.
Also Elgin damaged the building and the sculptures when he had them violently broken off the building and cut into pieces for the transport.
Happy Friday. Great video. This reminds me when I went to Olympia Greece and tour the location of the first Olympics. There was rumble everywhere and a building of statues and artifacts. Yes . They should go back to Greece
Why not have every museum return all non-native artifacts to their country of origin? That way if you want to see Greek sculptures you have to go to Greece, or if you want to see Indian artifacts you have to go to India. In my mind this is about modern tourism and the income generated from that, not so-called "cultural heritage". Greek people valued their "cultural heritage" so much they plundered the Parthenon for building materials! This has happened in every country in the world. Stuff happens in 2000 years, or even 200. Let sleeping dogs lie, and let modern laws govern how art is purchased/stored/displayed/taxed. I think it's great that people are following what happened to art plundered by the Nazis, but that is recent history, not the distant past.
Well I don't mind a Museum having something created elsewhere if it was purchased or gifted fair and square, but I do take issue with stolen items and I think the world is heading in the direction of giving those items back where possible.
@@HistoryCalling I think there's a statute of limitations on all this. What happened to all the artwork Napoleon plundered? Does France still have it?
I think the average Greek person sees this more as a matter of national pride rather than as an economic/financial matter, although perhaps the Greek government thinks more in those terms (and anyway, is Greece really lacking for tourists?). Pick an average Greek off the street and ask him/her about it and yes, the main arguments will be about cultural heritage and national pride. I also think most Greeks see it this way: permission to take the marbles was granted by a foreign occupying force, one that we hated and later fought a revolution to overthrow (I realise all of this is thinking in hindsight, and may not reflect how people felt/thought back then - we are talking about the modern Greek person). As such, it is seen as an illegitimate action, as it was perpetrated by those to whom they never belonged in the first place (again, I realise this sentiment may have no legal validity - I am just explaining what the sentiment is). As for Greeks plundering the Parthenon for building materials, Greece at the time the marbles were taken was pretty poor and backwards, the majority of the population was poorly educated (if at all), and they cared more about survival than preserving some old temple whose significance was unknown to them - I don't think that should be held against us centuries later, when we now clearly very much care about it.
@@babablacksheepdog Thanks for taking the time to explain your point of view. I think at some point people have to draw a line about about rehashing events that happened in the past, though. Lord Elgin sounds like he may have pulled a fast one but it also sounds like there was bribery and corruption going on in Athens, too. Who would have thought? We can't rewrite history. Nobody knew at that time that Greece would be an independent nation again. It's possible that Elgin thought he was "saving" the sculptures from a worse fate. The Parthenon was in pretty rough shape what with explosions, weather, wars, "recycling", etc. It has had to be rebuilt and restored more than once. Thank goodness so much of it is still there to be enjoyed by the current Greek nation and the world! I think there is a great advantage in having this display of Greek art in London, available to be studied and enjoyed by people who will never get a chance to visit Greece themselves.
@@janegardener1662well said
Love you calling on Ancient Greece❤
I'd love to look at history from outside the UK and Ireland more often actually, but I find it's hard to get people to watch it.
@@HistoryCalling
I know what you mean. I watch some channels and as soon as they do something else ~ the replies are "I watch you 0nly for your stories, don't change the program pls." 🤔 Lol.
Just know I enjoy your uploads every time.
Merry Christmas from across the pond.🎄🎄🎄
My feeling are this. *according to the laws attitudes and custom of the time* the antiquities were at the whim of the Sultan, to whom they belonged, in his mind, as the spoils of conquest, and I believe he didnt care for such idols and was almost certainly happy for Elgin to help himself, a handy way to forge cooperation with Britain. It was no skin off his nose. I dont think the Sultan would care who was then the owner- the Ambassador or the British State, and the plundering of foreign antiquities was an obsession in the 18th/19th century. Of course the marbles should be repatriated now. We have 3d scanning and printing. The past is the past and even if the pertinent documents were traceable the right thing to do now is create copies and return the originals to where they can be seen in context, in the hands of responsible conservators in their country of origin. The details of the 18thcentury transaction/arrangement is irrelevant now. Attitudes and policy change. The Greek people now have a voice
Thank you, exactly the detailed video I was looking for.
If it were postulated that museums should return all objects not native to their own countries, in some cases it would be very difficult to determine who should receive them.
Maybe museums should only return items where there is a definite claim of ownership and keep items that can’t be definitely said to belong to anyone else.
How limiting and culturally narrow when the National Gallery can only display works by Constable, Gainsborough and Turner….
Absolutely no-one is suggesting that - straw man argument
@@FloortileWorks legally purchased from other countries would be different, of course.
@@kate_cooper The understanding of what constitutes legality might raise some issues in some cases.
Interesting and complicated topic. In my opinion, artefacts should be returned to the country of origin, provided that country is able to conserve, and/or display the objects. Hellas is a modern country, which is able to do so.
On the other side, many countries are still not able to. An example is Iraq, where many atrefacts were stolen or destroyed, as a result of the wars. I guess many African countries are the same. We also know that many religious states will destroy arterfacts, for being "heathen" or "blasphmous", like Taliban demolishing Buddha statues in 2001, for being non Islamic.
So it seems that each case needs aa individual evaluation. That national feelings, or pride get into it, doesn't make it easier....
Thanks, again. More of these, please...
It’s a tricky one. Maybe the best answer is that putting the marbles in the British Museum was the right thing to do at the time because they wouldn’t have been properly cared for in Greece, but now that Greece has an appropriate museum for them, the right thing would be to display them there instead.
But the remaining marbles of the Parthenon are in much better shape than those in the British museum. And they are still in Athens.
How was keeping the marbles in some Earl's garden going to preserve them better than if they were left in Athens? They weren't moved to UK to be preserved, they were moved there to grace some stately home of an aristocrat. They only ended up in the BM because the man ran out of money - they should be returned to their lawful home.
this video came out at a perfect time, just sat down to relax.
Enjoy :-)
I never knew that entrance to the British Museum is free; that is terrific. Most museums in the US have fairly expensive entrance fees. The Ringling Museum in Sarasota, FL has a free day for the art museum on Mondays (because circus people usually had Mondays off and very little disposable income), and the grounds are always free (a beautiful picnic spot). I think that all museums should have at least one free entrance day in order to give everyone the opportunity to visit no matter their financial situation.
Thank you for another well researched topic. Im inclined to agree that they should be handed back, but I have strong doubts about whether they ever will be. The slippery slope argument has world-wide implications, and I cant see how the current owners, both public and private, of vast collections of looted antiquity, across the globe, can be compelled to pack up their treasures and send them back to their original homes. The provenance of the marbles is well known, and, as you rightly argue, it is clear that they were looted, but returning them sets a precedent that museums everywhere must be conscious of when looking at their own collections. What happens when countries require the return of objects that have more ambiguous provenance? What about antiquities that are in private hands, and people/organisations have paid huge sums for them, in good faith that it was legal to do so? I'm sure that there is a solution, but it is going to need to involve a broad agreement. One that I'm not sure the world is ready to accept.
we have the technology to laser scan and reproduce the marbles in minute detail - the Greeks might even pay for it if they were given the original marbles back - of course the Rosetta Stone would be next though - amazing detail in the content as always HC - ty
Yes, we could certainly do that and I even wonder if it wasn't for all the controversy around them, how much would Britons even miss them? I'd never heard of them until they were on the news for instance. I think they mean far more to Greece and understandably so.
@@HistoryCalling - they are a relic of imperial days to a few still - it's beyond silly perhaps - 🛸✨
Of course, technically, The Rosetta Stone is Egyptian (& some think French by proxy). Just sayin' 😉
@@chrisbanks6659 Is it though? It - along with its 'sister stones' - was commissioned by a Greek-speaking dynasty of Macedonian stock and was the product of a thoroughly Hellenised Egypt. It might be entertaining if the British Museum renounced ownership of the Rosetta Stone, quoted Alexander the Great's dying words of 'to the strongest', and watched Egypt and Greece battle it out to be the new owners 🤣
As someone from Britain who has seen the marbles in person (although it was 8 years ago; I was a 10 y/o boy, I can't really remember it all too well), I believe they should be returned to Greece. As with the one statue of a lady who has been separated from her three other "sisters" (I'm pretty sure the statues are called the 4 sisters on Greece, I may be wrong).
Also, I've seen the Giant's Causeway. It was pretty great; I slipped over on a wet stone and landed straight on my bottom, 11 y/o me was not impressed! 😂
Hello history calling, again. In one of my stories, my creative character travels through time. He slaps Oliver Cromwell, he engaged in A fight with Peter the great of Russia and richard III of England.
I dunno. I think any one of those guys might have killed him before he could escape though...
@@HistoryCalling You see, he sees A special device that suppressed his super-strength and speed. And also, he has A time machine on him at all time.
Ah, well that does help.
I think because I live in the United States and see Native American pain over their artifacts being in museums (I follow someone on Twitter who went to the British Museum and was like "stopped by to visit my family's stuff!") I also tend to be very "give it back" about museums in general. When I was studying at my university I initially was planning to become a curator but pulled back from that because I didn't feel right about it. I think there's value in museums but the way things have been gathered for them historically is a huge ethical mess.
I never knew the whole story before so thanks for this video. What will happen if the British Museum returns the Marble to Greece ? It would be a precedent for future cases and other countries will require their artifacts, not only from British Museum but also from the other ones and this can lead to serious problems.
What serious problems? Serious challenges, yes, for sure, but why problems? It would be such an excellent, invigorating, fascinating way for museums like the BM and Louvre to acknowledge that their own history is very complicated (what history isn't?) and that things have been done in the name of preservation and empire which shouldn't have. What is the function of a museum, in these modern times where pretty much all historical artefacts can be viewed on the internet and there is so much more geographical mobility? This is a question to which the answer(s) could be connected to this issue; a modern museum could be one that tells the story of itself, of how historical study is not exempt from prejudice and criminal activity, and how these thorny issues were solved and handled in a spirit of international cooperation and a belief in global culture. Wouldn't it be glorious if rather than denying that many of their artefacts were stolen or acquired under murky circumstances, the curators and researchers connected to these museums were able/allowed (because it's not just them ofc, politicians play a role) to acknowledge this and work with the international scholarly community to set standards, conditions, agreements, and plans for the return of such artefacts to their home (providing that home is stable; this could be one if the things that is a condition), where they really do belong and will have the greatest impact? In return I'm certain elegant solutions could be set up that would leave the European museums no poorer (a loaning schedule for certain pieces, the possibility of taking detailed copies, etc). Perhaps this is naive but this sounds to me like a much better and sustainable way for museums to go into the 21st century; their role is changing and will change, and if they don't take ownership of that I do think they might become what many people already think they are, stuffy relics of a bygone age, clinging desperately to a superiority that leaves a bitter taste in the mouth to see.
I don’t get why something from halfway across the world would be in the BRITISH museum? We have so much amazing archeological history in this country, why is room being taken up by another country’s history? Send the items back and replace the displays with displays on Roman Britain, pre-Christian Celtic artefacts, Iron Age tools, displays on whether or not King Arthur was real, or information on any of the kings, queens and fascinating historical figures we have in the U.K.
There is no reason for non British artefacts to be in a museum that is supposed to celebrate British culture
Returning the marbles would set a horrific precedent that could and would empty museums all around the world.
Good. Then they can make exhibits displaying their OWN history and not other people’s history.
There is no more excuse for the U.K. to have the sculptures than for Stonehenge to be shipped to India.
A great overview of a thorny issue. Anyone with the correct insight of the facts and a sense of what is ethically right will conclude that these priceless pieces of heritage belong in Athens. I've seen the originals in the UK and the copies and empty spaces in the (truly wonderful) Acropolis museum. I feel if the British were able to acknowledge some of the less savoury parts of their imperial history, the door could open to a wonderful cooperation between the two museums to ensure that the marbles could go home, but the BM would have access to them for loans, study, copies etc. Sadly it doesn't look like this will happen soon.
I felt how completely ignorant I was about the museum's subject.
So I just learn a lot from your detailed information. Thank you very much. I wish you a Happy New Year !
Frankly it's abhorrent by the Brits to keep these artifacts that do not belong to them infact they are a piece of Greece and need to be reunited as the restoration of the once great monument is underway. The fact they do not return the marbles show how the brittish museum and government disregard a monument that is a symbol and the pinnacle of western civilization. They are jealous of the fact they have no culture or rich history of arts and music and all things depicting beauty.
Great video, a well researched & presented view that it makes it undeniably that they should be returned to Greece.
They should be returned.
Άλλο ένα masterclass από το HC. Ανυπομονώ να. Ευχαριστώ πολύ ☺🤓
I had to do a Google translation, but now that I understand the message, thank you very much :-)
@@HistoryCalling It's all Greek to me!! A subject close to my heart. I sit on the fence on this one - we own a small property on one of the Greek Islands and am loath to speak either way.
@@chrisbanks6659 A true diplomat, as always! 😉
Ah, now that sounds like a beautiful little holiday home to have.
@@stephencarrillo5905 Not really Stephen. Just suppressing my potty mouth - I do like a good rant now and then but this is not the platform 😄
I always love these videos of yours. Where you get us to think about the entire purpose of archaeology. What is preservation if it’s completely removed from the original location and the original intent? How can we define preservation if it’s on our terms and not the original?
Removal of sacred objects, religious relics, buried bodies in another’s land without returning them because “finder’s keepers” is, in my eyes, completely disrespectful and unethical. With all the technology we have today, we can make 3D computer renderings and 100% accurate physical reconstructions.
Why are the Athenians left to make the reconstruction while the originals bring in millions of pounds to the UK through tourism alone? It isn’t just the British Museum benefitting. It’s all the nearby places to stay, restaurants to eat, and the hundreds of thousands of other attractions that people visit the UK for.
Elgin made plaster casts of everything, the Acropolis Museum displays some of these. The casts made in 1812 show how the remaining marbles were degraded and vandalized, they were not displayed in the Acropolis Museum until 1993.
This was not a case of "finders keepers", permission was obtained.
@@andrewwilliams3137 The permission is dubious and I was not only referring to this particular set of artifacts.
I saw the Marbles. How incredibly beautiful they are!
One thing I will note is that the parthenon gallery in the BM frequently closes due to the roof leaking lmao
Give them back!! As well as all the other nicked stuff. James Alcaster has a fantastic sketch about this😅
Excellent and thoughtful analysis. I think that the marbles should be returned to Greece. However, the British museum can't give them back without inviting a tidal wave of demands from countries all over the world. Every major museum would feel the effect. Sadly, everyone is stuck with the fallout of Thomas Bruce's sketchy dealings.
A similar situation is with the Iranian royal regalia and imperial throne - in 1739 the Iranian shah Nader conducted a lightning raid into Mughal India and sacked Delhi carrying away all the incredibly valuable throne furniture and imperial regalia of the Mughal emperors and the loot - the Peacock throne is still in Tehran as part of the Iranian imperial set up. Should Iran restore all the stuff to India???>?
The Parthenon Marbles need to be returned
Britain should scrap the price of visas though, costs an actual fortune to visit the museum. Perspective a familys whole grocery costs for 2 months. So not entirely free...
"It took hundreds of workmen four years..." What response did the workmen's actions during this time get from people in the area?
*crickets*
Elgin shipped the Marbles to the UK 1802-1812 over a 10 year period. Difficult to believe that the local and central Ottoman government didn't know about it. There were no complaints raised at the time or in 1816 when they were sold to the British Museum.
I have been training to be a docent at a small, but amazing, museum in central Massachusetts where I live. The provenance of an artwork has been an important part of our study, and even our museum has not been immune to international notoriety on this topic. It's important to do the right thing and give the work back to the country of origin, especially if it was taken under suspicious circumstances, and to try to prove otherwise, by diminishing the abilities of the country of origin to properly care for the art, leaves me speechless. I agree with you. Britain must return the Parthenon Marbles.
Very enlightening! Thank you!
I have to say that the Parthenon Marbles were stolen and should be returned to the Greek Museum near the Parthenon. However, I don’t know if this can be done without causing irreparable damage. Those stones are part of our history. I do hope it can be done. It’s so sad seeing people have no regard for our history. Thank you for the history lesson. Have a good weekend.
Thanks Leticia. I suspect they'll end up back in Greece at some point, though it could be years yet.
With modern scanning and laser printing technology, I'm firmly of the opinion that the British Museum should make copies and send the originals back. That would allow much more in-depth study to be done on them - overlaying the 'naked' marble with projections of their original painted forms, for example - and enhance the museum's existing claims with regards to education. Greece gets their stuff back, the British get to do something new to bring in new vistors... everyone wins.
(Even if the BM doesn't make any copies though, it's still not their stuff. Send it back.)
So glad to learn they aren't large spheres. I had no idea.
Why in the world was part of the sculpture blurred at 7:38 ?!
Curious issue about architecture - they are made to function as shelter, to house, to fortify or sanctify what the human decides - they are not ‘art’ as we think in the modern sense (ie having no other purpose but to look appealing).
But, once that architectural structure ceases TO function it loses its viability - the Parthenon, thru no fault of its own - human politics did the damage - lost increasing levels of viability with the Greeks loss of autonomy, to Rome, and most especially to the Ottomans who had no connection culturally, religiously or ethnically to anything on or attached yo the Parthenon. When the roof blew off the temple, also thru no fault of the structure’s own limitations - that sealed its fate: look around, what structure can you find without a roof, that still functions as … anything? It is now open to vandalism, graffiti, abuse of theft, looting … whatever was left at the Parthenon, as at the Acropolis as a whole, was to put it crudely, ‘fair game’ and treated as such by any chancer, any well meaning ‘archaeologist’ (same thing??), any visiting tourist (Hmm, same thing?), any curious soul with the income and time to exploit the situation.
One could say the same thing about the ‘ruins’ also being excavated from 1760’s in the area of Pompeii, (Herculaneum, Boscoreale et al ) - the Bourbons dragged up everything they fancies and put in their private museum - the Murats opened these museum galleries and presented them to the Neapolitans as THEIR heritage, the returning Bourbons took it all back in 1816, even the reclamation projects Caroline Bonaparte Murat personally financed on behalf of the people of Naples.
Leland Roth wrote an excellent book on the realities of architecture, I use it with my students, to explain just how a structure such as the Parthenon, like so much of our current cities, simply transform from viable to irrelevant, seemingly overnight, just by losing their roof.
There is an ongoing debate in the media regarding whether the Elgin Marbles should be returned to Greece. Personally, I find myself indifferent to the outcome of this discussion, as I have never had the opportunity to visit the British Museum and have no plans to do so in the future.
However, I hold the understanding that the Elgin Marbles were acquired by Lord Elgin, who reportedly compensated the authorities for them. Furthermore, my belief is that the government at that time conducted an investigation to determine the fairness of the acquisition, ultimately concluding that it was legitimate and just.
Given these circumstances, one might question why there is a push to return the marbles to Greece when they seem to rightfully belong to the United Kingdom.
we can also make near perfect copies of things like this, so not much is lost if we do return them
Currently the culture minister of Britain recently suggested thT they can be borrowed to Greece as long Greece recognises them first as property of British Museum. Says also that they were legally aquired and payed for ... The lack of shame of these people colours whole of Britain as Thieves as long Brittish Government does back up Brittish Museum. When you buy something from a thief , even if you payed and have receipt as long it is considered illegally aquired by him you count as a fence so a thief too. Simple as that
I think i am more of a " let them stay where they lay" person. Look at the extreme damage that has been done trying to move them.... another disaster could remove them from us completely. Also, that they have ended up in england is a potent part of human history, too. As long as the whole horrible story is told, it might be worth it. If they were in Greece, would we ever have heard you tell this story??😢
It's also about it's value to their rightful owners. People visit the British museum to see them instead of Athens. That's why Greece wants them back
@@LenaFerrari Exactly, this is about tourism $$$ not "cultural heritage". Only half of the Parthenon marbles survived the 2000 years in Athens due to war, weathering, accidents, and the local population pilfering them for building materials.
Yes, it's true that the publicity they garner due to the dispute over them is what has made them extra famous at the moment and had it not been for that I may not have thought to do a video on them. It's a complex debate, I grant you.
Another great one. I do agree with you that they should go back to Greece where they belong. The Ottoman didn't have the right to sell or give something they didn't own. This has happened too much in the past with other countries occupying other countries or even scientist taking things for the pretense of it needing to be study. Just so wrong.
I am in favor of the marbles being returned to Greece. Can't the British Museum make copies of the statues and the frieze, or have a holographic display?
Before even getting too deep in to this video - why does Britain think it has a right to own these? It should be a very simple discussion: things were different before, you came by these in an unethical manner, and continuing to insist that you maintain possession now that we’ve asked for them back is wildly pompous of you. Get off that high horse, and give back what is rightfully ours.
Personally, I'd like to see ownership of the marbles given back to Greece, particularly the museum, and that the British Museum be given the right to display them in perpetuity with the acknowledgement that all signage be rewritten to indicate they are on loan to the museum by the Greek government. This would show proper ownership and assure that more people are able to see these great works.
I think the best argument is that the Ottomans didn’t have the moral authority to give permissions for Greek things to be looted.
If Greece has a state of the art display and care plan available, then there is no real danger to them now.
And the British museum can 3D scan the marbles and keep copies on display while documenting the story.
This could even perhaps lead to a loan of the marbles still in Greek possession to the British museum for a limited time.
Subjects like this are very complex and nuanced and we need only look at the immeasurable loss of artifacts in territory claimed by ISIS in the recent past to understand just how much can be lost in such a short time.
I know. It's terrible to look at the losses incurred through the actions of terrorist groups. It just breaks my heart. Even the ancients often had more respect for historical objects than that. :-(
I can’t help but compare the throne of Henry VIII (conquest + laws/parliament) and the situation with the marbles. Even though Henry didn’t have the best “blood” claim he won by conquest mostly with the parliament on his side. I also think many(most?) of the marbles would be lost to profiteering if they hadn’t been moved and protected. Probably an unpopular opinion! Either way it is very good to exchange ideas and constructive debate about such subjects. Great research as always HC.
They should be returned... only after i get to see them in July though 😊
Six million people visit the British Museum--per year, for free. Six milliion people also visit Athens, and have to *pay* to visit the Parthenon Museum. I think I understand Greece's motivation.
Stolen? This is in the eye of the beholder. Elgin was granted permission to remove most of these by Ottoman Turkish government of the time that ruled Greece and had for several hundred years. That the Turks did not give the Greeks a vote on the matter at the time is irrelevant. Had the marbles been left where they were most likely they may not be around today due to weathering and air pollution. The question of whether the British should now return them to Greece is another question. But if every piece of art had to be returned to its place of origin it would certainly empty out most of the world's great museums. Send the Mona Lisa back to Italy? Send the treasures of King Tut back to his tomb? Send the horses on top of St. Mark's in Venice back to Istanbul?
I don't think everything has to go back to its country of origin if it was legally acquired, but as I explain in the video Elgin was actually not granted the kind of wide-ranging permissions that he said he was. As for the idea that the Marbles would have been lost had they stayed in Greece, the fact that the rest of them are still in Greece and are fine suggests that that statement to be wrong. Elgin basically dumped them in a friend's back yard and left the British climate (far less forgiving than the Greek) to damage them even further. The Tut artefacts are in the possession of Egypt as far as I know and some material (including the mummy) was put back in the tomb. There has also been water damage to the tomb since it was discovered, making it inappropriate to store a large number of objects in. I don't know the history of the Mona Lisa or the St Mark's horses off the top of my head, so can't comment on them.
@@HistoryCalling The Mona Lisa (which everyone seems to bring up in arguments regarding the Parthenon marbles) was actually bought by the French King Francis I from either Leonardo himself or from one of his pupils who inherited it from Leonardo when he passed away. So very much legitimately acquired. Also, Leonardo spent the last years of his life in France under the patronage of that same king, so even though the Mona Lisa was most likely not painted there, France was one of the countries where he lived and produced art, and as such he is very much a part of its cultural heritage. The horses of St Mark's were taken by the Venetians from the Hippodrome of Constantinople during one of the crusades. The country/empire they were taken from (the Eastern Roman aka Byzantine Empire) no longer exists, and neither does the Hippodrome as a complete monument, so not sure where they would be returned to.
@@HistoryCallingThere was no ‘pearl clutching’ scandal at the time as to the legitimacy of Elgin’s actions for the obvious reason that nothing illegal had taken place by the mores of the time. As to rewriting past history, now that really is a slippery slope.
They should be returned. They should be where they were intended to be.
Hope you enjoy your weekend history calling from Bea
Thank you. You too. :-)
A set of casts of the Parthenon Marbles is in NYC at the Graduate Center-CUNY on 5th Ave at 34th for those who want to see them. They arrived in NYC around 1850'sih and are are in the lobby of the CUNY building and free to the public to view. I think a copy of the marbles could be carefully made for the British Museum to keep with the originals returned to Greece.
Yes, that would seem to be a fair compromise. Most of the dinosaur 'bones' you see in museums are replicas and people don't seem to care on the whole.
We also have some plaster casts of the Elgin marbles at the Western Australian Museum, they arrived in the 1890's, I think. Much sought after at the time, when there was a great respect for the Ancient Greek origins of much of Western civilization.
@@richardnieuwhof2028 I wonder where else casts can be found around the world?
We need to be careful though with historical objects with government situations...there should be some type of regulation world wide
Yes, that's not a bad idea.
I don't agree with what Elgin did; however, I do believe that they are housed safely at the British Museum, and transit of these fragile stones would result in further damage.
On a side-note, the statue of Byron depicts a very handsome man.
I've heard that he was quite a philanderer.
Please could you do a documentary on him?
I think he was a very interesting man. Love his poems
Nothing is safely housed in a museum which has a leaking roof and from which over 2000 artefacts have been stolen. Plus because of the wrong restoration techniques used in the previous years, the marbles in the british museum were badly damaged. They belong to the Acropolis museum.
Sounds like a case of:
He said, that she said, that they said, that we said, that ....
When nobody wants to say it was their fault.
Why are the Partheon Marbles in the Louvre NOT so controversial?
Probably because there aren’t as many there. The bulk is in the British Museum so they get the bulk of the vitriol. France should return their marbles as well but for now the British are getting the heat.
Louvre OK - British Museum "STOLEN"
Deceitful two-faced hypocrisy.
I must say that I agree that all antiquities that were unlawfully taken from any other country should be returned. If the legal Government gave or sold antiquiities to another country, that country has no obligation to return same. The British Museum does indeed have many antiquities which were stolen or pillaged from other countries and which should be returned.
I think it may be better to leave them where they are as moving them could cause further damage.
I get really annoyed by people using the "slippery slope" argument. Oh no, how awful would it be for countries to have their stuff returned to them! If someone stole your stuff and then refused to return it because "well then everything I own would have to go to", you'd recognise that is a stupid argument. Return the marbles. Return the Rosetta Stone. I'm glad the Benin Bronzes are going back home.
Also what the hell is the argument about modern Greece not being Ancient Greece therefore they shouldn't have them? You do realise that also makes the British even less qualified to own the marbles since they're even further from Ancient Greece than the modern Greeks are? Also, the modern Greeks are the Ancient Greeks direct descendants and it can be proven through genetics.
We have the technology now to create almost exact replicas of pretty much anything we want. Make copies to put on display and send the originals back. The Rosetta Stone on display is a replica, as visitors kept breaking bits off as souvenirs, so why not other statues and objects?
6:54 "to protect them from ottoman and French mistreatment" - this guy is a really big hypocrite, isn't he?
I agree that the collection should be returned to Athens. I also understand that the Turks referred to them as "idols" in the paperwork presented in this video and we saw that the Turks had used the temple as a military storage site. These facts offer context that we may not appreciate in our time. The use of the term "idols" may indicate that the Islamic Turkish officials considered the items blasphemous. If they hadn't been purchased and sent to London they may not have survived to the present. Think of all the priceless artifacts in Syria and Iraq that the world could have saved if ISIS had sold them to foreign museums. The fact that Elgin was able to purchase them may reinforce the idea that the Turks looked at them with contempt.
Another brilliant lecture. MJF, PhD.
Thanks Michael :-)