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In defense of fantasy: on why our genre has a bad rep and why it's undeserved
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- Опубликовано: 12 авг 2024
- I've gotta know - have you had any experiences like mine? This was the biggest one, but I've had many people over my lifetime tell me they just didn't "get" fantasy and go on to say a lot of things about it that it just simply isn't. Today I try to come to the defense of my favorite genre and explain why it actually has literary value and it's definition is broader than we think. Let me know in the comments below your craziest story and why you love fantasy!
Socials
Instagram: / bookborn.reviews
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Sources
theoatmeal.com/comics/believe
"A Brief History of Fantasy" M Allen 2006, accessed by ojs.library.dal.ca
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helleni...)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Bai#...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...
www.staceycarroll.org/index.p...
Books shown in recommendation portion:
Romance
This is How You Lose the Time War by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone
The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue by V.E. Schwab
Practical Magic by Alice Hoffman
Historical Fiction
Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell by Susanna Clarke
The Book Thief Markus Zusak
Classics
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carrol
Slaughterhouse-Five by Kurt Vonnegut
100 Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Lit Fic
The Midnight Library by Matt Haig
Circe by Madeline Miller
The Ten Thousand Doors of January by Alix E. Harrow
Religion
The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis
The Golden Compass by Philip Pullman
Poetry
Beowulf
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien
Good Prose
The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss
The Grace of Kings by Ken Liu
Boy, Snow, Bird by Helen Oyeyemi
The Empress of Salt and Fortune by Nghi Vo
Character Driven
The First Law Trilogy by Joe Abercrombie
The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch
Mental and Physical Aliments
The Stormlight Archive series by Brandon Sanderson
The First Law Trilogy by Joe Abercrombie
The Tawny Man Trilogy by Robin Hobb
Complexities of the World
The Fifth Season by N.K. Jemisin
Exhalation by Ted Chiang
To Be Taught, If Fortunate by Becky Chambers
Whenever I visit home and meet people from high school and talk about how I've read 50(-ish) books so far this year, I always end up having to defend SFF because that's the majority of what I read (it's like 45 SFF books and 5 non-SFF books). They don't come out and say it, but it's clear that they look down on it because it's a genre of "escapism and entertainment"-these are also people who procrastinate homework by binge-watching 12 seasons of terrible shows like Supernatural lol, so I don't get it. But anyway, I always find myself giving 3 major defenses of SFF:
1. Author Ken Liu once said: "I just think that speculative fiction writers tend to be more willing to literalise their metaphors. Just as it is more visceral to work out a mathematical proof in geometry by manipulating compass and straight-edge over a piece of paper, there’s something compelling about working out the implications of a metaphor by literalising it. I think that is a large part of why we’re drawn to fiction marketed as magical realism, science fiction, fantasy, wuxia or other speculative categories." Basically what he's saying here is that fantasy has a UNIQUE ability to discuss complex ideas and issues and concepts through its ability to design its world to be EXACTLY what is needed to discuss its ideas. THE TRAITOR BARU CORMORANT's world is designed to discuss misogyny, colonialism, homophobia, and economics; A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE's world is designed to discuss what makes a good ruler; MISTBORN's world is designed to discuss what makes a concept a religion, and what truth there is to religion; etc. Realistic literary fiction can't discuss a lot of these ideas with the depth and complexity that SFF can because at the end of the day, they are working in our modern world, which is way too complex to be simplified to basic thematic concepts-unlike fantasy, where worlds can start as basic concepts and ideas, before complexity and details are added on that reinforce those concepts and add layers to them to discuss the ideas in a nuanced way. So actually, SFF is MORE capable of discussing most complex issues than other genres, because of its ability to literalize metaphors and simplify and essentialize concepts.
2. Author Brandon Sanderson said: "Fantasy is awesome because you can do everything. Now granted, I am willing to bet that anyone who writes in genre is going to say that their genre is awesome, and that’s great. But for me, I’ve read fantasy books with as much literary style as any literary novel out there. I’ve read fantasy books with as much romance as any romantic fiction out there, as good mysteries as any mystery fiction. So fantasy can do all this… plus have dragons!" In other words, take any type of story you can think of outside of SFF-the moment you add a speculative element, it becomes speculative fiction. And you can turn it into speculative fiction without sacrificing pretty much any of the story that you are trying to tell. Think of The Fifth Season's literary styling, Stephen King's horror which is basically all fantasy, etc. You already went into this in your video, of course, but I really like how Brandon put it-fantasy can do what EVERY other genre can do…and it can have dragons.
3. On escapism, author Sir Terry Pratchett said: “Escapism isn't good or bad of itself. What is important is what you are escaping from and where you are escaping to. I write from experience, since in my case I escaped to the idea that books could be really enjoyable, an aspect of reading that teachers had not hitherto suggested.” He also said: "The British author G.K. Chesterton summarized the role of fantasy very well. He said its purpose was to take the everyday, commonplace world and lift it up and turn it around and show it to us from a different perspective, so that once again we see it for the first time and realize how marvelous it is. Fantasy - the ability to envisage the world in many different ways - is one of the skills that make us human." Personally, I think the idea that we read SFF for escapism is a GOOD thing, and one of the things that makes this genre the best genre out there. Not only is escaping to something ENJOYABLE a good thing to do, it's also a smart thing to do, because as Sir Terry said, imagining the world in different ways is part of being human. (Also, the other thing that escapism can do is that it can allow you to think about complicated issues without realizing you're thinking about complicated issues because you're also really enjoying the story you're reading.)
ABSOLUTELY. First, you picked three absolutely amazing authors to quote, so I'm already on board. I hadn't heard Liu's quote before and I love it. It's so true- by having the ability to shape the world in any way we please, speculative fiction can get to the heart of matters a little easier and often with more subtlety because the world-building does a lot of the talking.
@@Bookborn Haha yeah I already had the Sanderson quote ready to go, and I was like, haven't I heard Ken Liu speak about topic #1 and Sir Terry speak about topic #3? So I went and found those quotes. And yes, I totally agree with what you are saying here.
@@UdyKumra oh checkout Erikson's thoughts on this too, he pretty much thinks that writing fantasy is actually much harder than any other genre, because it requires more than just a good pengame and a gift to write words in a beautiful manner, it takes more than that to make a world believable and lived in while also not losing your reader with all the info dumps you have to throw at them at a reasonable pace. He talked about it either in Brittany's interview or Daniel's and it was such a cool insight since he is regarded as one of the best writers prose wise in the genre, alongside giants like Gavriel Kay, Hobb etc.
There we have it - a person with no taste. It is so, so sad... Supernatural is IYO a "terrible show" with lower status watchers? Shame on you - shame! In a way I feel sorry for you, as, contrary to you, I have absolutely no problems with binging 15 seasons of the show, and reading good books of all genres at the same time. :-)
@@toinenosoite3173 People who watch Supernatural are not lower status. People who watch Supernatural but still think fantasy is "lower" or "lesser" literature are lower status. If you love Supernatural and are respectful of what everyone else likes then that's wonderful!
In response to the "It's childish" argument I get, I usually respond with C.S. Lewis: "When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up!"
C.S. Lewis always has a good quote for every situation.
@@Bookborn Absolutely, he does! I sometimes feel like a walking 365 calendar of Lewis quotes he has so many applicable sayings lol.
You defended fantasy with the fierceness of a barbarian and the wisdom of a sage.
I've never been so flattered
I always found that Fantasy was ironically the best at social commentary, because it would get a message across before you even realise it. Rather than more dramatic literature that clubs you over the head with some deep message, like the Author is saying "do you get it? DO YOU GET IT YET?"😂
in fairness I've read a lot of fantasy that clubs you over the head. Honestly, I feel like it's becoming more and more of an issue. Directors and authors have started trusting their audience less and less and begin just clubbing you over the head with their message. It's like...what happened to subtlety?? But I agree, a lot of fantasy you don't even realize it's happening.
@@Bookborn oh for sure. God knows the "racism is bad" analogy has been written to death in Fantasy, just by swapping in a (usually less than flattering) fantasy race for a real life one. Not very subtle at all... great video btw
Early magazine fantasy: « it was meant to be very short and fast-paced »
21st century fantasy: 650 pages fantasy has become our definition of short and fast-paced
💀💀 where's the lie
I don't understand how someone can, in the same breath, say they've never read fantasy and that it has no value. If you haven't read it, you can't judge it.
Right? But the truth is, if they are a reader, it would be pretty hard to avoid ANY fantasy. So many classics have an element of speculative fiction in them.
But your point is also why I currently don't DNF things. I feel like once I finish them I have the right to have any opinion I want on it haha!
A David Eddings character when asked "where does the time go?" responded with "Behind us. Or, in front of us. Depends on which way you're looking." That, if nothing else , has added value to my life.
that whole "we've got you" segment was amazing, you need to make a tiktok or a 30sec scatch out of that lmao, so I can send it to people who have thi signorant opinion :'D
Ohhh that's a good idea, maybe I'll make a Reel out of it on Insta! (I don't have a Tik Tok because I'm old lol).
@@Bookborn i dont either, and im not old, cant help my hipster self
@@Bookborn the way I anticipated that your reply would be exactly that you are too old to have a TikTok 😂 (needless to say I wouldve had the same answer - cheers to you my fellow grandma of booktube)
@@ReadByAndy YES ANDY 🤣 I'm so glad we get to be young grandma's together
Please don't ruin Bookborn by doing a TikTok video 😂
Cheers to this! I think some people get the impression that fantasy doesn't explore psychological, sociological, and thematic depth when they see some of us fantasy lovers get excited over the dragons and magical swords. Wonder is such an important aspect of fantasy enjoyment, but the haters fail to see how thematic depth usually enhances that experience for us fantasy lovers. Great defense!
TOTALLY. Like...sure, we are geeking out over magic systems and creatures because that stuff is just objectively fun. But we're also getting a lot more out of it too.
Thanks for this awesome video!
I am a doctoral student in religion focused on ancient Mesopotamian and Levantine Mythology and I can tell you based on your definitions, I can push fantasy or something like it back at least 2000 more years. I would recommend checking out Stephanie Dalley's "Myths from Mesopotamia" among others!
Oh FOR SURE. It gets really sticky because the further you go back it seems the most things we consider fantasy today were written religiously and I don't want to step on toes there haha. But I'll look up Myths from Mesopotamia!
Here cuz Daniel Green gave you a shout-out in his live stream last night. I'll be staying, subbed.
Thanks for coming!
My friend never read any fantasy but loved GoT. When the series ended she asked for recs to fill her time, and I gave her some names of books she might like. Then she stopped and looked at me, and asked very seriously, "but isn't reading fantasy a waste of time?"
I was perplexed by how deep the stigma went: she's watched all of GoT and didn't consider that a waste of time! How is reading fantasy less worthwhile than that?!
That's SO funny! I think GoT is going to be integral as the start of bringing adult fantasy to the mainstream. You need to give her the most thoughtful fantasy you can find at first to ease her in haha!
Your 'OK' at 2:54 😂😂 it made me cackle. I know that frustration.
I remember my partner telling me how at school when he said he mostly read fantasy, a classmate snubbed him and said they don't count as books, she only reads biographies.
I can never get my head around this attitude. Fantasy authors create these entire worlds with whole new religions and cultures and even languages that still reflect our own world and struggles. I so often just get blown away by the minds that have been able to create these stories.
I mean I know biographies are important but man she sounds like a bore 😉 lol jk but maybe not?
ME TOO. Like how do they come up with these things? I think that about Pratchett now that I'm really getting into his books, too. Like how is it possible one man was able to make so many cutting and hilarious remarks on so much of society.
@@Bookborn ah man Pratchett is just another level 😭 his books shaped my entire childhood! I'll always regret the day he came to my town and I didn't just say, sod it to work and go meet him. My brother in law got my book signed instead 😭😭😭
I'm currently rereading Guards Guards 'cos I saw it on your Instagram and felt I needed it after First Law 😂
@@fernebrown8083 LOL. I just read Wyrd Sisters as a break after two depressing books. It's the perfect comfort read that you always know won't be depressing
For that first conversation did you manage to avoid having your eye twitch as they said that
This was like 8 years ago and so I was much more reserved about my opinions. I kept all the rage on the inside and then unleashed in the car to Zack, as one does.
This video is amazing! Like an essay. Love that!
Thank you!
Tara Moss was on stage at a writers for women festival and asked the audience how many read science fiction and a very few hands went up. Then she asked how many had read the Time Traveller's Wife and 3/4 of them put their hand up....
YEP THIS! This is what I'm talking about. Sure it's romance time traveling (I mean idk I've never read it but I'm assuming romance haha) but time traveling does not exist, thus it cannot just be straight up lit fic haha
Brilliant and absolutely spot on. We should get cards made up with a QR code pointing to this video, to be handed out when this argument comes up in the future.
lol THANK YOU
That thing you said at the beginning about your friend-if a friend said that to me they would no longer be a friend lol
lol we aren't super close so it's fine 😂
I just found your channel today. I want to congratulate you on the production values of your videos. The videos are crisp, lightning is great and no echo. Editing is also very nice. Keep at making more content and you'll grow for sure.
Thanks so much for the support!
Great job! I know you mentioned it broadly, but perhaps you could have done some specific examples about Fantasy dealing with tough subjects, such as how The Broken Earth Trilogy takes on racisms or the way, the gender identity in The Tamir Triad, even a woman's struggle to balance her career and her love in Dragonsbane. Those are just a very few examples but I would love to see more.
I honestly was going to but the video was getting too long haha! I may do another entirely separate video where I dive into the different issues that are explored by some great fantasy novels. I mean the Broken Earth Trilogy itself deals with so much - race, climate change, abusive relationships, etc.
People who say fantasy is childish need to read the scene in the Wheel of Time when one of the characters contemplates destroying the universe because there's no point to life and everyone will be forgotten.
The truth is that many people who have that opinion haven't actually *read* fantasy. Maybe they read some in their youth, and they somehow think fantasy is only middle grade and for kids. It's pretty silly.
This video is so affirming of our collective values as readers of speculative fiction, and I love it! I find it so much more rewarding to try to understand genres that don't interest me than to denigrate them. I may not always fall in love with a genre, but broadening one's perspective has intrinsic value.
If I weren't so non-confrontational myself, I would share this with all my friends and family who don't read fantasy. Who knows, I may do it anyway. Well done!
Non-confrontationalists UNITE! I totally agree. Like...I'll be honest, historical fiction is just not my favorite. But...I don't think it's a worthless genre just because I don't jive with it.
Oh man, I've heard that opening line before from an English teacher. lol. This teacher asked me, "Why would you want to write garbage like that?" I happened to be reading The Warded Man at the time, not the best example of Fantasy, not the worst, but I showed it to my teacher who read through a few pages, then was like, "Oh this is actually well written."
It's so funny to me that people will have one bad experience and write off an entire genre as garbage.
Great video!
Yep, one bad experience and suddenly the whole genre means nothing. I think also a lot of people's only experience with fantasy is middle grade and *maybe* YA. They don't realize theirs an entire world of adult fantasy out there.
Absolutely. Fantasy is such a diverse genre. While there are some things that I dislike in the genre, the genre is so large that you can easily avoid it. There is something for everyone.
Oh totally. Look, is there some fantasy that lives up to every negative thing people say about the genre? Oh yeah. Absolutely. Buuuutt there's more too.
Great video, Bookborn! I'm glad you made something like this. I've heard similar claims about fantasy as a genre. This was too accurate during my literature studies. I dislike the fact people feel the need to disrespect what someone else likes, especially when it comes to reading. You don't have to like something; everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but you don't have to be rude either.
YESSS like "you don't have to be rude if you don't like something". I feel that maturity is just a huge factor. I fell into the trap when I was younger of thinking anything I didn't like must not be worth it. Now I'm old enough to realize that's the silliest thing on the planet.
My attitude is to each their own. I have a few friends who don’t read any fantasy at all. I even have a friend who doesn’t watch movies because - I’m quoting directly here - “It’s all make believe so why should I bother”. I can only recommend good books to people and I’ve successfully converted two Potheads into Sanderson fans 😎😎😎 my proudest moments lol I appreciate the research you put in to making this video. Keep up the great work!
Oh I'm for sure about to each his own... but also don't crap on what I like just because you don't lol! My closest friend in the world isn't really a fantasy reader (she's read and loved LOTR but not much more...she'll read magical realism occasionally). But she never acts like she's better than me because I like fantasy or disrespects it. That's all I care about!
@@Bookborn I’ve had friends who crapped on fantasy which is why we aren’t friends anymore. Some people are just wind-up merchants and I’ve found the best way to deal with them is to ignore em. As they say, empty vessels make the most noise lol
Your arguments were incredible!
Terry Pratchett. He influenced me more than any non-fantasy writer.
He's a genius. No question.
This is a very interesting discussion. I actually never thought about this because I really don't care what other people think of my reading taste/favorite genre (it's a personality trait 🙈). In general I think almost everyone loves fantasy. Either when they grew up or as an adult, this being a conscious or unconscious decision. It's all about semantics really; what is fantasy and what is considered magical realism?
I do feel like a lot of people underestimate
Loved 'we've got you' part 🥰 and yes you did a great job defending fantasy!
Lol giiirrrlll I feel you, like anybody saying that to me has not made me rethink my life decisions. I like fantasy, nobody can take that away from me haha!
I agree, though. People who think they don't like fantasy, I don't think they realize how much it encompasses!
I also kind of hate that according to your friend plot driven/fast paced or window pane prose can't also have value...that something has to be character driven or written prettily for it to have meaning, depth and value. Would love to have them read something like Poppy War series or Rage of Dragons/Fires of Vengeance so they could get a taste of just how many social justice issues and important conversations can still be included in fast paced/plot driven fantasy with more utilitarian prose! xD
Also, I would seriously ask what plot driven fantasy they have read because honestly it can be harder to find if you're into that, lol. Sooooooo much adult fantasy is slower paced and character driven!
lol Stacey over here being like "HEY COULD YOU GIVE ME SOME MORE FAST PACED STUFF THANKS" 😂 But for real, I feel like adult high fantasy prides itself on how long and sometimes arduous it is to get through it haha
But in all seriousness, you are totally right. I mean there are famous children's books that have a lot of meaning in them. Something that is short or entertaining does not exclude it from being an important work.
@@Bookborn You're not wrong, I'm totally up for finding more fast paced/plot driven adult fantasy 😂😂
The Illiad and The Odyssey are also fantasy and they're considered to be classics of huge literary value. Looking down on more contemporary fantasy is hypocritical imo.
Yes! They came up on every 100 best classic lists I found, but I figured most people probably already considered them fantasy, which is why I didn't mention them by name in this vid.
The Homeric Cycle was literally a historical record of what the Greeks literally thought happened in the war, how is that fantasy.
I just love your dedication and devotion to the subject as well as the analysis your presenting. I'm also glad to see that the world is more and more driven and developed by us nerds. 😅😁💪
Keep up the great work with this channel! (if you want to that is)
Thanks for the support! Nerds unite!
Great video! You really hit all the main points about the subject.
From my experience with people that share your friend's belief it usually comes down to them thinking fantasy only consists of middle grade and YA novels. And the need to feel like you're better than someone because people are people
Oh absolutely. I think the YA perception is a big one because it's all that's really shown in our mainstream media and adaptations. And yes...I think it's just a lack of maturity, honestly. I know I fell into the trap when I was younger of thinking I was smarter/better or whatever because I liked something someone didn't. Now I realize that's incredibly stupid.
@@Bookborn I think we're all guilty of doing that at some points in our lives. We just need to outgrow the need to think that we're better than other people and just try to be better people in general
Great discussion! Let me add something on the history of fairy tales:
Maybe you omitted this for the sake of brevity or it didn't show up in your research, but I think it's worth pointing out that we generally distinguish between folk tales and literary tales. Literary tales have an identifiable author, like H.C. Andersen, while folk tales have been transmitted orally since time immemorial, and their origins are clouded by the depths of history. What the Grimm brothers (and others) did was that they collected tales from the oral tradition and put them in writing. What's interesting about folk tales is that they no longer bear (or never did bear) the intent of a single author because the oral transmission necessarily change them somewhat between generations. So they evolved. Arguably the most memorable versions got passed along, and people put different emphasis on different parts according to their personal wisdom. So I think it can be argued that the folk tales represent a sort of aggregate of folk wisdom, and I find that some of them can be really deep and profound if you analyse them below the surface level.
I really recommend reading some folk tales that are as preserved as closely as possible to the orally traded version, and then thinking about their meaning. The Disneyfied versions are often very different from more authentic fairy tales.
Maybe one reason that fantasy is attractive is because it somehow connects with the fairy tale in its fantastic elements.
I actually was just talking to a coworker today about books. Found out he does a lot of trading. Turns out he reads a wide variety of genres but not fantasy as it just hasn't been his thing. Where I really only read fantasy. But upon discussion we both look to gain the same types of things from our reading. So I thought it was interesting we were getting the same things out of reading although our taste in books is completely different
I think a lot of readers across many genres read for the same reasons, whether we realize it or not. We read to learn more about our world; we read to escape our reality; we read to experience many different lives we can't ourselves. Any of those three things can be done in absolutely any genre.
May I just say, your videos are fantastic! Thank you so much for the research you did for this video, and all the work you went trougth. I need to do a essay about fantasy, but it is really hard to find truly good information. Please forgive my english, I know it is not the best but it's my second languege. Thank you again, deeply love your work :)
Thank you so much for the support! Good luck with your essay :)
You can go back even further than Greek and Roman myths, The Epic of Gilgamesh is the oldest recorded story and it's also fantasy. I always use that when people say things like this.
A lot of people have been mentioning this one! Idk why it wasn't showing up on my fantasy research, maybe because it was so religion based? But I mean...so were the greek myths.
That video was awesome! I’ll totally be reusing some of these to defend the fantasy genre!
Thanks Andy!!
I am 43 and Iike fantasy ( among other genres ) for example: Lord Of The Rings, Geralt of Rivia, Dragonsbane ( by Barbara Hambly ), Elantris ( by Brandon Sanderson ) and my favourite Dresden Files by Jim Butcher.
And I recently discovered Prydain Chronicles which takes on deep values.
Take care of yourself and stay safe.
Nice video. Totally agree about how fantasy writing can almost be an easier way of exploring societal issues, sort of feels like thought experiments where the conditions are less restrained. Meaningful topics are definitely explored, like the traditional Vorin feminine/masculine arts and traditions in the Stormlight Archives.
Another common fantasy diss I hear is, there are no consequenses or real tension since anyone can just be "deus ex machina'd" at any point. Just sloppy storytelling that can be done in any genre..
I honestly thought of Vorinism when I talked about gender issues lol. I mean I've obviously read a lot of other books that tackle the issue more directly but I've always found that part of the stormlight archive absolutely fascinating.
And totally agreed. There are a ton of non-fantasy stories that have been a victim of dues ex machina. Bad storytelling is bad storytelling no matter the genre.
This is a FANTASTIC video. I am going to need to share with my wife...
Thank you!!!
lol I hope you can convince her 😆
This was such a well reasoned arguement delivered in such an understated way.
Thanks for the support!
Lol, i love you! This whole video is a masterpiece.
Thanks so much 😊
I'm all here for that "we got you" segment near the end. If only I could clip it out and send it to people :P
Someone said I should make it like a reel or tik tok...maybe I will...if I learn how to do that stuff... lol
Great job!! I'll refer people to this video when they seem confused about SFF. I feel like when people say things like that, we should have copies of N. K. Jemisin, Octavia Butler, and others in our bags to hand to them and say, "Read this. Then we'll talk."
RIGHT! I'd even add LeGuin, Clarke, Rothfuss, and others to that list...there are so many that go beyond what a lot of people think.
Damn I think this is my new top channel just those pop-ups came a bit quick but they were very cool
Thanks for watching ☺️
I love your extensive research, it adds so much to your "opinions". And I totally agree that fiction is a great way to deal with real world issues because it drops the baggage that comes with real world issues.
Exactly! I love the way you put that - it drops the baggage.
One quibble is that speculative fiction is a subset of fiction, and so all works must also fall within the definition of fiction, which means the works have to be intended to portray things that are imagined, rather than just including elements that aren't strictly true, which is why nearly all mythology is placed in the non-fiction section of a library, because (as far as we know) the original authors thought it was true.
Very fair quibble! Mythology is definitely a line that's really hard to figure out, but I still maintain that people think if it's "good prose" that it must not belong in fantasy lol. But can't deny you have a point.
This video literally expresses my last 16 or so years of reading combination of literature which is considered serious by critics and literary snobs and works of entertainment.
I ask these questions almost every day.
So far my two cents highly condensed:
Times changed in last 20 odd years. Nowadays fantasy is much more mainstream. Also fantasy literature itself evolved. This notion about fantasy being childish and not sophisticated or artistic is less and less true almost every new year and it will be even more true in the future. Fantasy has much more wider range now. If we even count magical realism as marginal fantasy genre, or something very close to fantasy, we include some of the most profound novels written in modern era.
Generally fantasy gets bad rep for not being genuine about human condition and leaning more on entertainment than art. However again art has developed so fantasy literature has. Works of Jemisin, Mieville, Chiang or Artwood are as profound and artistic as it gets.
But in the end it’s absolutely about preference of the reader. Sure book about dragons is mainly an escapist novel by definition but then you have allegorical story with dragon from Kazuo Ishiguro about aging and dying.
If fantasy has bad rep it’s only temporary. Until it becomes a classic as Lord of the Rings did.
It’s only a time until fantasy gets it’s Dostoyevsky, Joyce or Faulkner.
Until then we have Borges.
And Neil Gaiman
And Patrick “where’smyDoorofStoneyoutoldmeyoufinisheddraftlikeyearsagoandyoueditorsaysshedidseeanythingnewfromyouinyears” effin Rothfuss!
Amen
"amen" 💀
Honestly, I feel like every genre has a ton of books that are just for entertainment. Even in "serious" categories, there's tons of popcorn reads and there's nothing wrong with that. Just don't crap on my genre just because you can lol!
I meant to talk about it in the video but forgot, but I do believe time grants a legitimacy to a lot of things. So perhaps decades in the future, some of our beloved and talented fantasy writers will get some more accolades.
This is absolutely iron clad. I will definitely save this one for future use in defense of fantasy!
Thank you 😊
You did a very good job. Fantasy does a great job of freeing the imagination. That is probably why many adults are set against it: they have lost their imagination and think that imagination is a kid's thing.
Fantasy can be anything! absolutely. Love this. good job. *insert other wordy appreciative text here*
Thanks Pete :)
I loved this video! i don't get why people think that they have any authority on telling us what we should read or not but next time whenever someone tells me fantasy isn't a valid genre, i'll send them this video =D
right?? Like I was talking with my friend about this and I'm always wondering why people need hobbies to "mean something". Like maybe I just like video videogames! So what?? It doesn't always have to have some wider value 😂
@@Bookborn oh I agree. I have some theories about why people talk like that but then again I don't like wasting time on people like that 😂 live and let live . Like you said: things don't have to mean anything
I remember a school librarian once telling me 'adults don't read fantasy'. It was a weird thing to hear from a librarian, as it's pretty easily disproven. But I would not only disagree, but go as far as to say that the majority of literacy fiction in contemporary times is not especially thematically deep. Some of it is, but there's a lot of pretentious, overwritten nonsense, and I largely blame this on the 'rejection of plot'.
I mean...RIGHT. The famous ones get famous because they are really good, but it's not like lit fic is somehow superior in that it doesn't have popcorn reads too. PLEASE.
Also shouldn't librarians support all reading??
Love this video!
Thanks for watching!
Great argument. You presented this very well.
Thank you!
I think Brandon Sanderson in an interview said that fantasy and sci-fi can be great tool to explore topics and themes such as contact with alien species and we can confront these things only in speculative fiction. This idea really stuck with me. Speculative fiction gives us the opportunity to delve into (currently) unrealistic things and establish worlds and societies that are fundamentally different from ours - but these can also help us understand our real world and how people and societies work.
What a great sentiment. I think of Exhalation by Chiang that I just read...all of it was about things we can't do yet (think time travel, or extremely advanced AI) but not only did it make me thoughtful for the future but, like you said, gave me a lot to think about our current society. Of course, Chiang is pretty brilliant.
@@Bookborn I've been thinking about fairytales as well. Traditionally, at least in Europe, folktales weren't only meant for children, tales, legends and other folklore genres formed the literature of preliterate societies. These had an important role: folktales were often employed to share a common history, to reinforce cultural values or highlight important traditions. Romanticism is Europe brought the rise of interest in folklore and many people begun collecting fairy tales, among others. The Grimm brothers' classic collection became a household item, however the book was read to children not to/by adults. This meant an important shift, and fairytales, and folktales in general, became less and less employed for the purpose mentioned above and transitioned to a genre for children only. Maybe this contributed to the fact that fantasy is still seen by some as childish.
I was following a creative writing course. I'm coming from the region of Stijn Streuvels and around Christmas time people are invited to write a Christmas story, because he once did. Dude that organised the event looks at me and says: a Christmas story isn't fantasy. Boom.
Dude this is a great video, i'm a gonna share the hell outta it :-) Cheers!
Thank you! And please DO share the heck outta it! I'm pretty close to 4,000 at this point 😂💀
Thank you for this cool video.
We are catching up on our videos ....nice bookish content and channel :-)
Thanks so much 😊
The real question is, who gets to decide what is valuable? The way I see it, high concept literally fiction is deemed valuable by a lot of old academic white guys without therapists. I think there is value in imagination and entertainment even for adults. Especially for adults even.
You ain't wrong, that's for sure. I always like to say, also that like...so what if you're reading a fantasy only for enjoyment? Since when does everything you do have to MEAN something? Like, I like to play video games because it's fun! It doesn't have to provide so much value to my life haha.
You know a video is awesome when you're only halfway in, and you already know you're going to rewatch it lol
So much research stands behind this one!
as for personal experiences - yes, but less after the GoT TV series phenomena. but my dad still refuses to give LotR a try :(
Yeah, the GoT phenomenon gives us another issues...in which I think some story runners will believe the only way fantasy can be successful in a mainstream adult audience is through the use of gratuitous sex and violence. I'll be very interested to see how the WoT or LOTR shows coming up look like...
@@Bookborn yea, what a refreshing thing Mistborn was after GoT for me. Worth mentioning in the industry's favor that they didnt add any nudity and violence to the show of His Dark Materials. And its HBO, I was so scared that they will haha
@@urigatt6815 That actually surprises me a lot for HBO! Can you believe I haven't actually read His Dark Materials. Somehow I missed it as a kid even though it was super popular. I need to read it so I can watch the show.
Very good video. Thank you for defending fantasy.
Thanks for watching!
Fantasy fiction is pretty much like any form of art, be it literature, graphic novels, cinema, TV series, the visual arts, music and so on. The best examples show technical proficiency and/or manage to engage or resonate with audiences to help reveal some universal truth. If they're really great they'll transcend the generation they were produced in and become classics, like 'Lord of the Rings'. No art form or genre precludes having examples of proper 'art' as much as they can't guarantee the majority of pieces produced being little more than superficial junk.
Nailed it. Somehow fantasy and sci-fi get the brunt of "not useful" despite the fact that absolutely every genre spans the spectrum.
@@BookbornI guess it could be because of the way the genre has proliferated or pre-existing biases 🤷 Your "We've got you" segment definitely helps a bit on that front!
Yes, yes, and yes. Preach.
Thank you 👏
I like how people say it's immature, but then they'll see the size of one of my books and they'll be like, "I could never read a book that big". If it was so immature it would be short and flashy to catch your attention. Not to mention that that one huge book they could never read is probably just one in a series of extremely long books.
This stands by my opinion that most people just think YA/middle grade when they think fantasy. It's like so many people don't realize adult fantasy exists!
Loved this video!! Everyone should watch it...
Thanks for the support!
“Lacking in prose” LOL
Well done... I GOT YOU!
Another aspect of literary evolvement probably had much to do with the moveable type press and the fact that before then many works were heavily controlled by the CHURCH! I am positive my summons for explaining my work of literary art would of been pointedly ignored out of pure self preservation and the fact I would be hysterically focused on relocating as far away as possible from the controlling locality. I hate pain it hurts!😩
So our human ignorance of sciences, controlling religion, actual tombs/books were worth their weight in gold, stories were repetitive historical yarns of varying truth with lies and lastly mothers scaring the crap out of their children being the common method of story telling discipline.
I am hereby thankful manifesting into a human era where interesting and numerous humans have the ability to create absolutely beautiful works of art and be accepted for their efforts... Unless of course you're just a sh1tty writer and I have cursed many for wasting my time! If you cannot write well paint with crayons!
BOOKBORN, I BLAME YOU NOW FOR WANTING POPCORN NOW AFTER YOUR BARRAGE OF POPPING SPECIAL AFFECTS!🍿🍿🍿
Very true! The limited availability of books and publishing certainly influenced the voices that could be heard. I firmly believe self-publishing, now that it's so easy, will continue to grow larger and larger because of this.
I suspect in a lot of cases these opinions are expressed by people who don't like reading - and to avoid looking dumb they just say 'insert genre' is trash anyway. Or that they don't have the time.
It's fine! Reading isn't for everybody, just like anything else. But spouting unfounded nonsense is an excellent way to still look dumb. 😂
Excellent defense for fantasy, all the victory *dings* 🔔
It can be both- I find a lot of people who are extremely well-read but only in the "literature" or "non-fiction" spheres tend to look down on us the most. Not like I have time in my life for those people anyway though
I only started reading 2 years ago and the idea that fantasy is looked down on surprised me. I mean, fantasy books tend to be *tomes* spanning several novels. The level of commitment required get through a fantasy series can be huge. You're absorbing new cultures, societies, character arcs all along the way. If it's not for you, I get. But to write the genre off as childish and having no value is gross
Yeah I think that a lot of people honestly just don't realize that there is adult fantasy. They are only thinking of middle grade/YA fantasy. Not that there is anything wrong about those works either, but still - adult fantasy can get pretty complicated lol
I hate how I can never explain my book without sounding like a massive nerd.
I mean that is a problem lol. I'm not saying every book is made equal when you explain it 😅 Like Sanderson...forget about it
I love fantasy and imagination. Have you ever read a chinese novel called journey to the west. One of my favs.
No I haven't! I'll have to look it up!
@@Bookborn its a bit myth/religious but so good of story telling.
Find new friends. J/K - great video!
lol! Now I'll have all my thoughts so I can destroy them with my words the next time they say that ;)
Speaking as an African, the modern history of Western fantasy is quite synchronous with the global one, because of the rise of Internet and globalisation, at least in my experience.
I grew up with Potter and Narnia and Lord of the Rings, as much, if not more than indigenous fantasy.
So the ancient stuff is more localised to the West, but post Tolkien, less and less. At least, in my experience.
This is a great perspective, thank you! I still would have liked to learn more about ancient fantasy works across other regions as I feel they must have some effect on us today. Hopefully globalization can begin working in the other way soon - and instead of the west/english dominating, we'll start getting fantasy from more perspectives. I think it's already slowly happening but not quite fast enough.
I was a nerd before it was OK to call someone a nerd. The days when playing AD&D (Tolkien inspired) was satanic to many. We faced this fantasy fascism to a greater degree then today. The LOTR actually changed made fantasy more mainstream stream a second time with the release of the movies but that may have entrenched more people in the iui it's all about orcs and elves misunderstanding.
I am not a big fan of labelling works retroactively as scifi and fantasy. I do feel fantastic elements equals fantasy. Animal Farm - or how about Gulliver's Travels - would not make the cut for me. Mythology and the Epics would not either. Hugely inspiring/influencing for sure. I believe the authors intent is the main determinant.
Game of Thrones was the newest boon to fantasy but the final season or two seems to have driven some mad.
Great video.
I ALWAYS SAY THIS! Like "I was a nerd before it was cool to be a nerd and I'll be a nerd long after it stops being cool". It's a funny age where nerdiness has become trendy; I wonder if it'll last.
I can understand not wanting to retroactively label something! I do it but I can see the argument against it. While I was researching, there was a big discussion on whether anything could be labeled as fantasy before the genre was defined in the 19th century. It just felt beyond the scope of this particular video to go into it.
Enders game is not YA
Other than that this video is amazing
Some people I know wouldn't want to read fantasy or sci-fi stories just because this kind of prose is too detached from reality. Well, that's they are written for: escapism through the use of imagination.
Speaking of imagination, in my experience as an engineering professor the students who read fantasy or sci-fi novels tend to think more analytically and critically in problem solving than those who don't. As Albert Einstein said, "Imagination is more important than knowledge."
If fantasy and sci-fi literature are important, therefore BookBorn is truly essential. 😂🤓🥰
I had no idea you were an engineering professor! Which engineering? As an engineering grad, I approve lol
And I agree; I can understand how many fantasy just doesn't sit with people, but they don't need to claim it doesn't have value just because they aren't down for some imagination.
@@Bookborn Electronics engineering. But I have specialized more on mathematical modeling and simulation on applications of digital signal processing, RF and digital communications. There isn't a day that I would claim that I've had too much math in my line of work (it's more challenging here in the Philippines that we always overlook these fundamentals because we are more of a consumer country, less of an innovative one).
If you're an engineering grad as well, I'm sure you'd agree that an engineer's life is not as easy as 3.1415... (you know what I mean, haha). Thankfully, we have fantasy and sci-fi to help us get by! 😂🤓🤩
I think you're partially right but you also kind of missed the point if I interpret the stance of your friend correctly.
In essence, she argues that fantasy isn't literary fiction.
And while there is a small share of literary fantasy the majority really is not literary.
And thanks god that it is not!!!
I love fantasy and I generally can't stand literary fiction.
More often than not, lit fic is all focused on themes and sometimes character development but quite often there isn't really much of a plot to speak of. As someone who prefers plot driven works, genre fiction is so much more appealing. After all, I want to read an interesting _story._
I've been a bookworm ever since I learned to read (and loved listening to stories there were read to me even before) and have had a lifelong preference for speculative fiction that has never left me, but if all books were lit fic, or the sort of book I had the misfortune to have as assigned reading at school, I would not have become a reader.
I suppose, there would be some overlap in the books that your friend and I enjoy, but a fairly small one. But that is fine!
Luckily, there's books for every taste and preference!
I understand your instinct to want to defend fantasy, and your video did a great job bringing your point across!, but personally, I don't have any interest in trying to show others that what I read has value.
The books I read have value to me, and that is all that matters to me. I don't feel the need nor do I try to live up to other people's literary standards.
If they think what I read is crap, so be it. They don't have to read what I read, and vice versa. 😉
Most people who know me know I love reading fantasy
Can't tell you how many times that as they mention Harry Potter as the best fantasy I have to slap them down with all the other amazing stories the fantasy greats have given us 😂
lol I understand it. In High School all I thought about was Harry Potter. I remember my senior English teacher saying "I love that Harry Potter has gotten so many kids into reading. But I want them to know...that's not all there is". At the time I was so mad like "HOW DARE YOU DISRESPECT HP" but now I'm like..."oh boy he was right! There's so much more out there!"
@@Bookborn
Your teacher was definitely right 😂
I like Harry Potter but as a teenager I preferred the His Dark Materials trilogy and still love it to this day
Having your soul with you as a animal daemon is better than being able to cast spells with a little toy wand
Have you read those books?
@@jameswitts3793 I haven't but I really want to. I always meant to as a teen and just never got around to it; I had read Narnia and had always heard His Dark Materials was like the atheist version of that LOL
I'll admit, I love Harry Potter. Like...LOVE LOVE. It got me through a lot of times as a teen and will always hold a special place in my heart. But, that being said, adult fantasy is freaking awesome.
@@Bookborn
I live in England and been to the Harry Potter World near London so can highly recommend that
His Dark Materials gets a bad rep as an atheist book, it's more about being free to question authority shown through a child's journey
It's got Witches like Harry Potter but these ones fly using their bow
There's also armoured bears, portals into other worlds and tiny assassin's that ride dragonflies 😂
@@jameswitts3793 Oh the atheist thing never threw me off, I just remember that's what everyone "claimed" it was.
Also, a lot of people are using contemporary literature for political recruiting.
So instead of having an intelligent conversation they be little other works.
Not saying that's your friend, but that is what they do.
I don't think that was her idea in this particular instance, but it sometimes does come off as a "I'm smarter than you" attitude.
Wait, you were a Trekkie too!?
I know we already talked about this on discord but YES. Trekkies unite. Have you seen the movie Trekkies?
@@Bookborn I have not and now I need to!
Just hand them Gene Wolfe or Asimov. Case closed.
I mean right? there are so many. But I feel like anytime a SFF author gets too fancy or writes too well, they just suddenly become "literary fiction" and they try and take them from us haha
@Bookborn Haha yup. I’ll refer to that as the “Ray Bradbury phenomenon”
How could someone not see literary value in speculative fiction?! That’s nuts to me. I’d put folks like NK Jemisin or Neil Gaiman against any of the Murikami or Kingsolvers of the world.
Of course ninety per-cent of fantasy is terrible. Ninety per-cent of everything is terrible. I see no reason to hold fantasy to a higher standard than other modes of storytelling.
In all seriousness I can understand why and how this attitude prevails, which is why I think we have a duty to try and steer people to the good stuff and avoid the bad stuff. It's why I love your channel.
Also, magical realism (Juan Rulfo, Gunter Grass, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Salman Rushdie etc.) is basically fantasy, it just seems more acceptable to the elite.
I completely agree that magical realism counts as fantasy. I personally love magical realism too - and I never understand why it always gets classified as Literary Fiction instead.
I lol'd at your "90 percent of everything is terrible". I wanted to argue but when I really think of the broad scope of everything that is out there...I mean you're probably sadly not wrong 😂
I thought you'd have started with the Epic of Gilgamesh, especially if you were looking for some non western examples, in your history timeline.
As for the topic itself, I don't get angry when people say they dislike fantasy, as generally I find their opinion pretty worthless on the topic. Pretty much anyone I've met that has claimed that when asked what they have read they are basing their view on have read nothing, or at best 1 book they were made to read at school for English classes. I just can't take them seriously enough to get worked up about it.
I have more respect for the opinion of people that say they just aren't interested in trying it than those that claim it is rubbish without reading any.
I'm totally with you on people who just say "i'm not interested" but don't trash it. I honestly don't care if people don't like fantasy, to each his own, but don't say it's objectively *bad* just because you don't prefer it!
The Epic of Gilgamesh isn't necessarily considered fantasy! I mean, I suppose it does have fantastical elements but mostly it's classified as religious or historical or whatever.
@@Bookborn You should read it (if you haven't already), it's fantasy. Plus it's not as if anyone is currently basing their religious worship on it, so the chances of offending anyone by saying it is fantasy is slim. (No doubt I will now be hunted down by some Enkidu zealots!)
@@thewhiskybowman lol I bet it's fine! It was the same conclusion I came to about the greek myths...they started as religious texts but no one views them that way today as far as I can tell.
Not to dissuade from the misled notion about fantasy readers not being literal enough, but what DOES your shirt say and reference? Netflix & Long Rest (D&D dice?)? Wait, did you just bring MY Marvel MCU fare into all this? How dare! I shall not countenance this!
It does say Netflix & Long Rest with a DnD Dice :) One of our players made a joke about it at our table and my husband and I made up these shirts for all of us as a joke haha
@@Bookborn oh! Oh! I just got that reference! I wasn’t up on it until a nephew explained awhile back the original phrase. I did not understand -as in- connect* (understood the original phrase but didn’t connect it here) that reference sooner! Sorry, Cap!
@@genghisgalahad8465 LOL! It's fine, the shirt is sort of a joke on how "Netflix and Chill" sounds like something that...it isn't and it had to be explained to all of us too 😂
First of all, noone should ever have to defend their literary taste! Now that I have gotten that out of the way, onwards to your video.
Good defense? Well, your main strategy seemed to be to enlarge the area covered by fantasy - not only to sci-fi, which I personally would keep as a totally separate field, but to about everything that has ever been written in the world.
Take for example the extremely excellent German book Das Parfüm by Patrick Süskind. Its ant-/protagonist is a man who has no odour himself but an olfactory capacity of the gods. According to you, this would put the book in the category of fantasy... Respectfully, I have to disagree - in the same way that I do not find political satire or allegory like Candide by Voltaire, Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift or Animal Farm by George Orwell to be fantasy at all.
BTW as regards why people have the wrong impression of fantasy - maybe it has a lot to do with the books that are hyped by fantasy readers. Swords, heroes, magic, castles, quests, epic battles etcetera are main staples of most of them. Or do you disagree?
I expanded fantasy, because by it's definition, that's what fantasy is; also, I address my sci-fi inclusion at the begging :) I believe sci-fi is a completely different genre, but unfortunately, the general population tends to smash them together regardless. Think of most bookstores or libraries/ or even just how people so often do "SFF".
Gulliver's Travels is a funny one to include, since even literary scholars consider it fantasy; but either way, it seems that people who dislike fantasy like to take anything that is fantasy and consider it something else. For example, Susanna Clarke's and Madeline Miller's works, which are just CLEARLY fantasy, I mean Susanna literally uses the word "magic" and "faeries" in Jonathan Strange - are always found in just the "literature" section, because they have somehow been deemed "worthy".
And sure, Fantasy lovers push books that have swords and heroes and quests, but it's silly to pretend these books don't offer any other value outside of that.
@@Bookborn Do they really include Gulliver into fantasy? Interesting. Personally, I have always put it in political/social commentary, but then again I am influenced by his A Modest Proposal and I am the first one to admit that I am not a literary scholar - only a modest reader :-)
Where haters put books is IMHO only interesting as far as it shows that the haters are really narrow-minded. And as you I find it strange that they try to "upgrade" something when they, to their great surprise and probably against their inclination, like it.
As within all genres, some works offer value, some not, but my main point was that it isn't that strange that people who do not read fantasy have a certain image of the genre. And this image is strongly supported by the fan community itself with its talks about hard vs. soft magic systems etcetera.
@@toinenosoite3173 I can understand how outsiders of the genre may find our discussions tedious lol. But, I also dislike the attitude of "something I dislike must not be worth anything". I have no problem with people not enjoying fantasy, tbh, because there are genres I simply don't enjoy very much. But...I also don't claim they are bad lol.
I think political commentary doesn't need to be it's own category necessarily, because multiple genres can have political commentary. Historical fiction, literary fiction can, but also thrillers (I literally just read one lol) and fantasy and sci-fi. I've actually read a decent amount of fantasy that has political commentary because it's so easy to do in fantasy. If you want even more hard core examples than say Animal Farm, look to Ursala LeGuinn's work, or even Abercrombie and Sanderson.
@@Bookborn The attitude you mention is of course totally idiotic - couldn't agree more. Are you BTW totally honest about not claiming some genres at least a bit bad? Then, sigh, you are a better person than me :-)
You have a very good point about political/social commentary - is it really a separate category? And if it is how is it defined? You are totally right about it being an integral part of many genres, and IMO most best books always comment on society in some way. I really have to think about this. Thank you!
Interesting that you mention Ursula K. LeGuin as I have been reading her works this year, and I am through about 90 percent of her books both in sci-fi and in fantasy. What an author! Take e.g. The Left Hand of Darkness that was revolutionary in its time but probably even more topical nowadays, The Dispossessed with incredible social commentary, the Earthsea series with a progression following her own development, and her short stories of which I loved e.g. the one about the generation ship.
As to Abercrombie and Sanderson. Of the first one, I have only read the middling Shattered Sea trilogy - an incredibly fast read, a fairly interesting story, but that was it. Unfortunately, he was extremely repetitive in his writing - everyone was boringly snorting and emptying their nostrils all the time, and why on earth was everything 180 degrees as regards how the world is perceived, the best exampel being Mother war and Father peace. So far I haven't read anything Sanderson, but I will soon. Nevertheless, I only expect a fun read, as my taste goes more for Robin Hobb than fast plots, fights and cool magic.
@@toinenosoite3173 Ahhh Hobb, what an amazing writer. Admittedly, I've only read The First Law trilogy and I enjoyed it and thought it had a lot to say, but have not read his other works.
Sanderson is certainly fast paced and great magic, but he has a lot of commentary, imo, particularly in the Stormlight Archive.
And ok, fine...I'm very biased against the Romance genre 😂
Fantasy, as well as Sci-Fi (also- romantic, and detective novels), are, as a rule, quite poor literature. Fantasy is usually valued for the worlds created there, not for artfulness, or literary value. So you have to have quite low standards, or just be very forgiving for the faults in logic, style, writing of fantasy writers, and just enjoy the world and adventure their books provide. Because- you are unlikely to get fantasy + great literature to be the same book.
Hard disagree lol. Did you see some of the fantasy books mentioned in this very video? LOTR is considered one of the greatest pieces of literary works of all time. Some modern works like Circe, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell have been highly highly praised in literary circles. This entire video is to disprove your very thesis lol
@@Bookborn My post refers to the bulk of the sci-fi and fantasy books; a few well written ones sadly do not really disprove the general trend. The ones you gave as examples are probably good (I've read only LOTR, not the others), and I would welcome more names of books with high universal acclaim, say, winners of Bookers prize. I see the 'Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell' was longlisted for it, and that is good, but, I think, rare. You obviously read more than me, so if you can remember more modern fantasy or scifi books that can be considered to be some of the best pieces of humankind's literary art- please list, I would be glad to read them.
Here is the thing not all fantasy or science fiction needs or does world building. I give you the beloved epic classic American Fantasy novel The Stand, it takes place in America so no world building needed. The author goes into detail of how a virus moves around America and kills millions as the government tries to find cure. It also shows with use of logic how people without the medical treatment that one can get in modern America people can die horrible from the smallest injuries. It should be noted that it along with The Dark Tower another truly American Fantasy was written by someone who is thought by many as one of the great American authors alive.
As for award winning Swan Song another amazing epic novel set in the land that we love won The Bram Stoked award the year it was published.
If you want fancy prose we have Something Wicked This Way Comes and the works of H P Lovecraft.
That all said after re-reading your comment it is clear you hold the classic snob who looks down at genre fiction as a whole. Those who write genre be then fantasy or thriller are writing popular fiction made for average people to read. In the mind of snobs as you seem to be it doesn't matter the genre or the themes or idea they explore you look your nose down at them.
@@stephennootens916 I do not look down at the genre as bad- it is just my opinion on literary value after my (limited) reading of popular works in the genre. Maybe I simply have not stumbled on high literary value sci-fi works? Because, for example, not too much is expected from adventure genre either, however, there are books like the ones from M. Waltari, or, say, Planescape: Torment (game text novel), that offer a lot historical depth, and philosophy respectively, to an already very well written adventure book with great characters.
@@NeblogaiLT what do you view as high literary value?