Wonderful and insightful video, as always! Great case studies and strong female character criteria. While I don’t disagree with you, I prefer the word “complex” or “layered” rather than “strong.” No one is one positive quality all the time, and exploring different layers is what fascinates me as a reader. I would also love to see more female friendships in fantasy and sci-fi more than anything. Would love any recommendations, especially in adult SFF! ✨
@@derrisreaditbefore Thank you! I definitely need to check that out! My plan is to read on in the City Watch books first, but I'm excited to get to the Witches as well!
OK YES! I kept trying to figure out in this video how I could differentiate between the fake SFC and the real one, and I think changing it to "complex" or "layered" is WAY better. We don't want SFCs, we want CFCs!!
I personally feel as if this is not an entirely correct way of framing it either though.... because a character can be layered or complex, and yet still not be a strong person in any way. At least, if you think of strong as an attribute which some characters can have; but less-so, I suppose, if you are thinking of a strong character specifically as simply being a character that is developed well. You can be strong without being strong literally all the time. And you can be strong, even while still having other flaws or weaknesses too. ^-^
I agree with all of your points. To add another thought to this, the "SFC" now has very few femininity traits, if any. It feels like the writers/ film industry is saying or can only see women as strong if they have mostly male traits.
Exactly. Modern “feminism” really doesn’t appreciate femininity, it equates “strength” with masculinity and thus feels it needs to make its women more like men and, worst of all, make them out to be better than other women for it. This is not a celebration of femininity, it is an abuse of it.
Yes, there are predominately butch or femme men & women in the world, in all definable factors or just a few: any predilection for traditional personality traits (manly or womanly) don't define one's gender identification. And because of historical sexism in the social and legal system, it's far more rewarding for a female to imitate manly traits in order to gain social credit than it is for a male to imitate womanly traits. Also, because woman are so frequently disenfranchised from power, they are taught to seek out monogamous male partners that are born with clearly male traits that are financially rewarded by their specific society: deeper voices, taller and wider skeletal frames, thick hair, low body fat, symmetric facial features, etc. in addition to wealth AND mate for life. The entire premise for most fiction is based on characters following these rules because that's how OUR society functions -without magic, without advanced tech that make the strength advantage that men have irrelevant. Fiction needs to let male dominated social values go the way slavery, monarchy and solid gold coins. Ok, maybe not the coins, those are fun.
@@Yertle_Turtle sorry but I like my fiction to mirror reality, to some degree. And the reality is that throughout history, the vast majority of people that "get shit done", are men. Men will always be stronger and faster. Blame testosterone and genetics. Not men.
One of my favorite “SFC”’s that I think even predated Katniss (at least movie Katniss anyway) is Kim Possible. She is THE strong female character, able to do anything she puts her mind to; but she’s also flawed, admiring the status quo and trying to appeal to the peers around her. Ironically, despite the fact that she’s “popular”, Ron Stoppable, her male counterpart, friend and sidekick turned partner, I’d very confident and aware of who he is, choosing to reject the status quo in favor of individuality. Both traits are admirable and neither are put down or told as being the “right thing” but they do start to impact each other, especially as their relationship grows. Ron grows more into his ability and starts to apply his strengths moving from a sidekick to a partner role (even saving Kim at the end of the series). Kim grows more into herself, accepting the sides of her that do not fit the “status quo” and coming to accept herself in a way that showcases much more of her confidence (even disregarding Bonnie’s catty remarks and not even considering breaking up with Ron or changing herself) which helps her to be stronger in all ways. To me, they are an ideal pair of a Strong Female Character and Male Character.
The good SFC you mention can also be relatable to both male and female readers since a good character is just relatable always. That’s why I love Shallan
Bit of an older video but the female characters in the Expanse TV show are maybe the best versions of the ‘actual SFC’ category. In fact, Avasarala, Naomi, Drummer and Gunney Draper are not only great characters in the Expanse, they are some of the best characters in all of TV
One female character I liked was Chrisjen Avasarala in the Expanse novel series portrayed by the actress Shohreh Aghdashloo in the Amazon show. She is an older woman elegant and charming yet will curse like a truck driver. She’s an astute politician who can be quite cruel at moments such as overseeing the torture of a Belter revolutionary for information or using deception to trash the career of a colleague in order to advance her agenda. But she is also warm hearted and caring to her husband and grandchildren and deep inside she has a sadness from the death of a son. Chrisjen is physically very weak but she will use her political strengths of gossip, innuendo, deception along with her knowledge of state craft and the technical workings of the UN bureaucracy to get her goals accomplished. Many of her choices have been wrong but when shown the truth of what is going on she comes to make the right choice even at the potential cost of her entire career.
@@Bookborn The Expanse is one of the VERY few cases I know of where you can watch the show or read the book series independently, without it affecting the other. The show does an incredible job of adaptation while keeping the spirit of the written, but DOES make some broad-stroke changes (character swaps, minor plot arcs, etc) to fit the media or on-screen chemistry. I'd go so far as to say that it would be *better* to watch the series first, before reading it (and I can't think of any other series I would say that about).
Granted, you won’t quite get quotes like _this_ anywhere but from the books, so YMMV: "She was not a political creature. She felt that politics was the second most evil thing that humanity had ever invented, just after lutefisk." - Anna Epilogue: Anna, Abbadon's Gate, Book 3 of "The Expanse" series, by James S. A. Corey
Also just rewatched the original star wars with my little one! Leia is serious and tough. She hides her feelings for Han and seems torn between her obligations and her own happiness. But she refuses to compromise and forces Han to meet her on her level. What a great character
Other thing that I hate with a "Strong" female character is that they think they have to make her stoic or emotionless. Because being emotional is seen as a weakness and that's just wrong. It makes us human... I don't want to read or watch a robot (unless it's an actual robot 😅)
Writers crib from reality, so they write woman as stoic because those women know that to demonstrate their natural range of emotion would allow men in power to attack them for their natural femininity in an attempt to demonstrate that a woman's natural range of emotion inhibits a woman's ability to manipulate others (through intimidation, empathy, demonstrating resolve or other methods of leadership) with the same effectiveness as a man. Like a traditional greed for money, most powerful men will undermine their competitors for power using most tools at hand. It's a very traditional vector for character assassination used against women, that's why they write the women as stoic so often. Do you want to consume fiction that avoids this truism of our lives?
Great breakdown of what the differences are and why Hollywood especially (obviously this happens in books too, but it REALLY happens in film/tv) keeps falling into this trap. I'm surprised you didn't mention the Endgame moment which was just the cringiest thing possible haha.
That’s right! Endgame committed the biggest disservice to the comic book individual characters that lead, aren’t just in the mix - Avengers and X-Men - stand shoulder to shoulder but exceed in their badassness without being all “all da ladies” corralled together. They would NOT have time for a “moment” of contrived “fan service” to “da wimmens” in da audience, in the literal battlefield.
A touchy subject, but points well articulated. I tend to only notice the generic, Hollywood SFC when the story grinds to a halt to hit me over the head with it, something the Supergirl show, for instance, seemed inclined to do constantly. If I'm invested in a story, I try to give the creators the benefit of the doubt in revealing enough layers to a character...but sometimes what you see is absolutely what you get. As to the Leia point, I think she was probably diminished the least in the Disney trilogy (though I've still never seen RoS) out of the main three, but I still vastly preferred her journey in the Expanded Universe. Balancing her duty to her displaced people, suitors of varying caliber, motherhood and the subsequent challenges/grief, fostering her Jedi abilities, fiercely protecting her loved ones, continuing the fight against he Empire and other factions as a rebel, diplomat, Chief of State... People talk about Mara Jade being the best female EU character, but Leia absolutely continues to hold everything together, even when she's a grandmother. Sorry. Star Wars was mentioned, I give excited rants. Feel free to disregard/like whatever version of characters/franchises you like.
Ugh don’t even get me started on Han and Luke - ESPECIALLY LUKE. the character assassination 😭😭😭 I agree that Leia was the least ruined in the Disney trilogy but it still missed the mark about what made her so great, like you articulated.
@@Bookborn Honestly, watching the new movies is what got me back into the books, so at least something good came of it! I'd kinda fallen off keeping up when they announced they were rebooting (though I did try a few of the new ones), but going back to the "real" story helped save my love for Star Wars. Even hearing good things about some of the new shows and such doesn't really pique my interest anymore, 'cause they killed my investment when the killed off the Skywalker/Solos. And, bringing back around to strong female characters done right, I think the Expanded Universe executes that far better, for the most part.
Loved seeing Anne Shirley, Jo March, Elizabeth Bennet and Miryem from "Spinning Silver" among the actual SFCs! One potential way to show a greater range of strengths and talents in female characters would be to jettison the "Smurfette Principle" (one heroine per story) for good and create more stories that showcase different kinds of female characters with a variety of strengths.
ABSOLUTELY. I forgot about the Smurfette Principle! When there are multiple women characters in the story to play off of, the ability to showcase different personality traits and strengths becomes much easier - and the characters are better for it.
I think we're definitely starting to get pushback against the idea that for a woman to be a strong character, she must lack traditionally feminine qualities and be seen as more masculine.
Most people don't realize that when Joss Whedon created Buffy, it was done with the intention of subverting the common tropes of the blonde female always the damsel in distress and the final girl. Buffy is a repudiation of those tropes and stereotypes where female characters like Ripley and Sarah Conner continue to play to those tropes .
One of my favorite SFCs is Bobbie draper from the Expanse. The show uses her strengths and motivations really well, and still finds flaws to make her human and relatable. Tbh, the expanse always does women characters justice. Would recommend you check that out!
I was just reading about this the other day! I recommend reading the essay called Strong Female Characters vs. Varied Female Characters by Krista D. Ball. It deals with this exact topic plus a few more stereotypes. She has a whole collection of SFF essays called Apropriately Aggresive: Essays About Books, Corgies, and Femenism.
Honestly you hit the nail right on the head with your analysis. I've always enjoyed good and strong female characters, but I've noticed in recent years that the mary sue has been very prevalent. Flawless characters just aren't interesting and imo makes those "SFCs" worse. I wish more (Hollywood) writers would understand this, they definitely should watch this video!
I wouldn't say the SFC is exactly a Mary Sue. While they share many flaws the SFC tends to be more grounded and stoic compared to the typically more quirky and special May Sue.
I'm glad you put this video up. It seems like too often people conflate being pushy, stubborn, and unlikable with strength. Sookie Stackhouse is the perfect example of this. She's probably the worst character I've ever read. She has no respect for anybody despite their station, yet she demands everybody treat her with the utmost respect when she won't give the same courtesy. She is stubborn to the point of putting herself and other people in danger for no reason. "Oh, you guys are going to fight 3000 year old vampire? I'm coming too. And if you want to stop me you'll have to knock me out and tie me up. And when we get there I'll mouth off to him because I know you two will be there to protect me even though realistically you are no match for him and only the plot will actually keep me alive." A strong character, and I can't emphasize this enough, knows their limitations and doesn't just throw themselves headlong into a situation because it's there. Sure, a strong character can fumble around like that, but when it becomes a personality trait that's a whole different story. I can't wait for the day where we replace strong female character with strong character. Because to make a strong female character one must make a strong character. To me, the traits of strength are the same within men and women.
I agree 100%! One of my favorite fictional female characters of all time is Meg from Written In Blood by Anne Bishop. Meg is physically weak and horribly naïve at the start of the book because she just escaped captivity. But she quickly wins the hearts of the Others (nonhumans) living in the city she escaped to because she is kind, considerate, and willing to learn/grow. She falls squarely into the category of a strong female character for me because of this. She is so courageous and compassionate, and I love it! We need more people to understand that being physically strong, broody, and “not like other girls” does not necessarily make a SFC.
Yes for sure! And that probably makes Meg more relatable too because those traits are something we can all possess despite not having magical powers lol
I think Misaki from sword of Kaigen is very strong female character yeah she was good at fighting but she was a mother and goes through a lot of character growth. Plus the women has flaws but she recognises them and ready to move on and it wasn't instant she took time to realise her flaws and loss so in exchange.
Ok Misaki is amazing, I actually put her in my picture list but I don't think anyone recognizes the fan art LOL. It also goes to show why having MULTIPLE female characters is so important. Misaki is contrasted by her two female friends who are also mothers - but who are completely different than her. However, none of these women are put down for their lifestyle choices; we aren't to believe Misaki is better than them because she is a warrior; they all get to exist in their own sphere and in their own way. THAT'S power.
Well said. I think an extension of what you said about the character propelling the plot forward is that they do so in ways only they themselves can based on what we know about them. Princess Leia isn't "bossy/snarky", she's one of the ruler's of a planet, a senator representing her planet, AND a covert leader of a rebellion against tyranny, and every choice and character quirk of hers are evidence of that.
Very well thought out per usual. You are so right about the Leia point and the force flying scene in particular. Part of what I love about Leia in the OG trilogy and Padme in the prequels are the natural leadership and resourceful qualities that are more of this World than the fantasy force magic that make relative loners (which isn’t a bad quality, but is easier than leading) Luke and Anakin the “heroes” (quotes for our boi Anakin) that they are.
Yes, yes yes. And I don't mind if they want to say that Leia trained in the force - that's cool and interesting - but like it doesn't mean she gets to force fly through space. Why can't she just be like the other jedi? And would she really have wanted to train? Probably not in the same way as Luke. She was TOO BUSY actually RUNNING the galaxy lol!
First, thank you for being a strong female character. The problem is probably linked to creators not knowing or appreciating strong females in real life. It seems similar to authors writing about people of color and using stereotypes in lieu of familiarity. My favorite characters include Xena Warrior Princess, Ayla from the Clan of the Cave Bear series, and Eowyn from LOTR (books, not movie).
Insightful and well spoken analysis. Another example is Alita Battle Angel who was a wonderful heroine. A living weapon, but expressing the same tender longings everyone has. The contrast between her power and her having the desires and emotions that make everyone vulnerable, is what is so great about her conceptually. The truth is, it takes more strength and bravery to be vulnerable than to beat a supervillain, especially when you have the advantage of superpowers.
This is so well done. I agree completely. We forget that to make a character good, they have to be relatable and developed. Show runners now seem to think that if their female leads struggle, it will be viewed as negative to women. I think about Galadriel in the Rings of Power. They took one of my favorite characters in Tolkien's world and they turned her from a smart, talented, magician and stately queen and turned her into a stubborn, bull-headed, sword swinger... but that was the way to make her the SFC we all "want" to see. I have seen Shallan used as an example of a good female character... but I would also through in Navani. She is an incredibly strong character, but not with a sword... but with her intellect and cunning. She is also flawed and self-concious and that really helps build her character and round it out so she is relatable! She also doesn't detract from Dalinar... they both have their own agency and their own story to tell.
💯 % I especially loved the fact that these should be the traits of all strong characters - regardless of male or female. Also would love it if there was more than one in the story. Let us see strength in many and in varied ways!
Yessss it’s so funny like there’s some sort of quota “let’s just have one woman in the room that’s enough”. The more lets us show the many ways a woman (or man or person) can be strong
100% agree with practically everything you said. I would also say that the kind of strength that comes with the stereotypical “SFC” seems to be more masculine in nature and physical. It implies inadvertently that stereotypical female traits are weaker when in fact qualities such as sensitivity, empathy, naivety etc. (Often considered to be feminine traits) can make a character stronger (both men and women). Lovely video though and ty for the great content
I think most everyone will agree with you on this. Even though I've always hated when people rush to call EVERY capable female character a "Mary Sue," & automatically get pissy when they see a female lead (particularly in an established franchise), there are many "SFC's" that totally miss the mark. Eliminating weakness is one obvious issue, but the more annoying one is what you touched upon - making every male around them either A) incompetent or B) completely doubtful & unsupportive in any way. Being as heavy handed as repeated flashbacks showing men telling them "you can't do this/you'll fail!" is bad enough, but when that basically amounts to your character's entire identity it eye-roll inducing. It reminds me of when I was in high school & would watch movies/tv shows set in high schools & how totally off it all felt... It was like every writer & director thought all schools were just this cliché environment of giving weggies to anyone who had the audacity to wear glasses, putting kids in lockers in front of teachers who just laughed along with them, and anyone with a decent car had a line of people waiting to give them BJ's after class... It was all so corny & awkward, it felt like NOBODY had talked to a high school kid in decades. In a similar way, some SFC's seem written by people who just write in clichés & have no idea how to write a female character. There's also a weird, albeit smaller, trend where people get upset when female protagonists are considered too attractive? A lot of angry comments I read regarding WW involved how Gal Gadot was just there for "eye candy" & her outfit was too "sexualized..." Seemed unfair to the actress, as well as ignorant to the lore-reasoning surrounding Amazon mythology & their ties to ancient Greek/Roman culture. Didn't mean for this comment to go on for so long, but I want people to realize there's a difference between SFC's & "Mary Sue's." Not all female characters are just there to be "woke."
Yes, SUCH a good point about the difference between real SFC's and Mary Sues. I actually have a Mary Sue vid in the works, and your comment has inspired me to make sure to highlight the difference between a strong character with skills vs. what a Mary Sue actually is. I shall defend Gal Gadot to the end. It's not her fault everyone in the super hero universe has to be ridiculously hot. I mean look at every Marvel hero LOL. And the thing about her outfits - the gaze of the lense is absolutely not about her body, but rather what she can do. It's not wrong for women to wear revealing clothing, it's only annoying when it's for specifically the male gaze. Nothing about the movie WW says "male gaze".
Great video! Tbh I'm usually scared to watch or read discussions about this topic because I feel like a lot of peole just use it to hate on the idea of women with traits that are considered to be masculine. And while feminine characters are great I still want to get variety of different type of women in fiction (as we should honestly). Regarding Captain Marvel I loved that movie but I agree it was weak in regards of making her an interesting and fully realised character. It worked for me however for making me feel seen and empowered, it was very much escapism and wish fullfillment for me :) Also one thing I would add is that typical 'strong female characters' still always have to look feminine enough, there is no variation in terms of how they look. Male charcters are more often allowed to not look coventionally attractive or have dfferent body types (it doesn't mean that they don't have that problem as well, just not to that extent)
Really great video!!!! I know I am not the target audience for this type of character but I do agree with basically all the points!! Specially I think that making a character whose only trait is to be "strong" and "independent" harms the character's popularity more than having a "weak" character. Though I have to say, I can understand that the writers do this things sometimes because there have been a lot of instances where people hate a female character for being weak (yes, I'm talking about Shallan. There are really legit critics some people make to her character but she is WAY overhated in my opinion, and in Rythm of War there was actually a beautiful scene where she and Adolin talked about strength, which was fantastic). Anyway, one point I would also like to add is that some people often think that putting a character (specially a female character) in a romantic relationship somehow makes them "weak" or something. I think the number of people who think this has reduced with the years but just... Why? I get that reducing a character to only being a romantic interest is just awful writing, but characters CAN show strength while also being in a relationship!! Like, I can think of Vin, Inej from Six of Crows, Annabeth from Percy Jackson, Leia, Sypha Belandes, a lot of characters from Spanish author called Victoria Álvarez, Shallan in her own way, Eowyn and Boa Hancock in the sense that having crushes doesn't reduce their strength or power..... And those are just the ones I remember at the moment, I'm sure there are more
Yes absolutely! Unfortunately a small minority like to be loud on the internet it seems that lacks nuance. As long as characters have agency, romantic story lines are simply a fact of life and usually very enjoyable. Shallan’s weaknesses are what make her such a fascinating character. She would truly be a weaker character without them.
omg Hillary, this is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. 💯💯💯💯 You have so many great videos but this is among the best. You nailed it. I have a thousand thoughts but let me highlight one thing you slipped in there. For decades it's been a thing in Star Wars "why didn't Chewie get a medal"? Why we haven't heard the same question about Leia not getting a medal is beyond me 🤷♂🙄😡 So glad you pointed that out.
Like I mean Chewie deserved a medal too, I get it....but YES why not Leia?? I guess it's because she's so important that she's just giving 'em out so she doesn't feel the need to reward herself 🤣
as always, great video!! i agree with you. most of my favorite characters are people who are strong in a way that goes beyond physical strength. It can mean strong in face of trials, or simply that they get up no matter how many times they get knocked down. I am tired of seeing this too. That women can only be strong if they are a certain way. And i feel like Katniss in the books is a SFC but she has a lot of flaws, and being in her head, you see that she's not just a bada** character. she gets scared and she suffers from PTSD. she makes decisions that have huge negative impacts on others. yet she has agency she does what she wants because she decided to do it, and for no other reason. I also think that portraying female characters as strong ONLY when they are physically strong is so limiting. I also find Egwene to be a real sfc because of her willingness to take her life into her own hands (im still only 2 books in). she wants to leave emmonds field and so she does. when bad things happen to her, you see how it affects her. she doesnt just brush it off and go after her enemies to brutally murder them. seeing her struggle doesnt make her less strong. on the contrary. Anyways, i loved this and i agree with you =) (what a long winded way to say that)
Yesss that’s what people don’t seem to get about Katniss. She was strong because she HAD to be but it was also killing her inside. Talk about compelling!
I never noticed it while reading until the author mentioned it, but in the Theft of Swords series the main female lead never picks up a sword. She uses wits or magic or a combination of both to save the day in every situation she finds herself in, well, unless she's being saved by the main characters, that is. I also love how she starts off only being able to boil water and make people sneeze and manages to use those spells to her advantage. Another character starts off after a series of unfortunate events just wanting to die and in a state of shock mixed with a deep depression and still manages to be a strong awesome badass without being a "strong female character."
I agree with so much of what you said. I wish we had more SFC that acted more like women. So many times people only consider a female character to be strong if they act like men ie. Physically strong, unemotional and seeking power. Quick rant - I had a big problem with this in the WOT show. Disclaimer - I haven’t read the books. I REALLY disliked Egwene all the way through but one of the reasons I really didnt like her is because of how she treated Rand in the beginning. It’s quite clear from episode 1 that they have a serious, adult relationship and, at least Rand, is seriously thinking of proposing and getting married soon. It’s very understandable then that Rand would be disappointed that she decided to chose power over love and family. When did seeking power become the be all, end all?
Also, an example of this done pretty well was Wanda from WandaVision. Yes, she’s a superhero and she’s probably the strongest avenger right now but the whole show was about her being a mom!! How great! Taking an essentially female characteristic and making an entire show about it! I thought it was phenomenal. Not that every female character has be like her but it’s so rare that we get women characters that actually feel like women.
Yes yes about Egwene - she’s not like that in the books and it weakened her, not strengthened her (in the show). I loved Wanda in Wanda vision too. I just wish they had the guts to deal with her grief in the final episode instead of turning it back into a super hero story. Such a cool look at motherhood and grief!
Oh, I agree with ALL OF THIS. Loved the Wonder Woman/Captain Marvel comparison. My only disappointment with WW was actually the ending ,where I felt like she devolved into just a fighter and lost some of what I'd found interesting in her earlier. But yes, Captain Marvel always did feel thin to me, and I think you nailed why.
I really liked this and I totally agree!! I’ve had conversations with friends about “SFC”s before and sometimes it almost feels like studios or publishers saying “See?? We made a strong woman!”, but for me personally it’s more about characters who have depth and arcs. I’m happy to see strong women or women who are just barely getting by as long as they feel real and are interesting!! Big manly men with hearts of gold and tragic back stories, non-binary characters with hopes, dreams, and failures - characters who feel like people first and foremost and who I’ll grow to love or hate!
If I think about this topic, at a high level I'd imagine the issue likely stems from tropes similar to 'damsel in distress' where the female character is weak and cannot do anything themselves, essentially the opposite of all the qualities you list initially. It probably comes out of societal norms that have existed for generations and when you describe the "actual" SFC, it makes more sense, especially in today's day and age. We have and are experiencing the advent and/or evolution of gender equality in all parts of society which in turn will then permeate into art whether it be written or otherwise. I love your take, and I hope it in some way can be downloaded into my brain so that I can help my 4yr old daughter embody these traits as she grows. Thank you!
Some really interesting points here and I agree with all of them. I often look back to Captain Marvel since I rather enjoy her comic book counterpart and try think about why I prefer Wonder Woman so much, and lately it just struck me that she’s a big bully in her movie. Wonder Woman is all about bringing out the best in people. I get that they were probably going for a more Tony Stark, quippy/funny/haughty character with her, but the writing and acting just weren’t up to snuff if that were the case. And even then, Tony Stark spends a good deal of his movies as an underdog without his suit, having to use his brain to solve problems instead of strength. Wonder Woman solves problems with kindness and empathy (which sounds silly saying it here but just works in her movie perfectly). And captain marvel gets what she wants through power and intimidation and humiliation…I mean just look at her final fight with the main guy. She spends the last few minutes of it humiliating the guy. She’s just a big bully. The movie version of her works a lot better as a villain in my opinion.
I think captain marvel as a tony stark type character could’ve worked especially since we rarely seek women in that kind of role - but the problems, like you stated, is that because she inherently has super powers she doesn’t get into the same problems as Tony, AND Tony is present as often not the best person while they were trying to present Carol as completely perfect.
@@Bookborn Another difference in the Mary Sue SFC's and the OTHERS... In Iron Man, Tony Stark sometimes "runs over" Pepper Potts... But right off the bat, WE know (perhaps even better than he, at least initially) that he NEEDS her. The Mary Sues... usually "don't need no stinking man". The writers seem to REALLY resist having any of their SFC's being shown to be helped, in almost ANY way, by ANY man. It's like they actually BELIEVE that old line about "women need men like fish need bicycles".
Thank you for the thoughtful breakdown. I've kind of second guessed myself, because I know I've been used to certain types of stories most of my life, and because I'm male. It is kind of like on Supergirl, I liked the message, but I felt like it was beat over the viewer's head. That just feels like lazy writing. And speaking of lazy writing, I felt like in the WoT show it wasn't even a consistent message, because they leaned in to fridging Perrin's wife. As for the space flying scene, I asked one of my friends to imagine Luke doing that, and their response was "oooooh, that would look stupid, I see". Then I asked how they would felt for Luke to die in that scene and they said "I'd hate to see him go, but if they couldn't have Mark Hamill play him anymore, it would at least be pretty epic". I don't know. I don't mind something having a message, as long as the story stands on its own (and the message is positive) The other problem is that having a critical take is really hard, because you get drowned out on one side by the people who hate "woke culture" (and those people tend to be hateful and use threats of violence), and that seems to polarize the other side to defend every hill, and view anyone saying "yeah but it could have been improved" as having an agenda opposed to the message... and then anyone who questions anything is lumped in with the hateful crowd. (Getting serious and not just talking about fiction anymore) There are hills to die on when it comes to polarization. But if *every* hill becomes a hill that must be defended at all cost, then all it does is draw the lines of battle with more people on the other side.
Yes. Yes yes to everything you’ve said. I think WoT is such a good recent example of how the idea of the SFC can fail so hard when you aren’t actually trying to make good characters but rather jsut strong. It means women without agency, it means randomly fridging a character and it realizing it apparently, and diminishing important male storylines with no benefit. And man yes about the hills to die on. Why does everything have to be so polarized and intense? We are talking about books and tv 😭
I LOVE star wars, and Leia are one of the first female characters I grew with (I saw the movies with my dad). I totally agree with you on the "a strong female character is just a strong character". Just one tiny remark: Leia is *also* a general. That's how the pilots refer to her as "general". So I didn't grew up to see my princess turns into generals, I grew up with a character who can be BOTH. And also, flawed in her own way, and strong in her own way (she's not "also a Jedi", she has strength others don't).
Yes that’s what I keep telling everyone like she’s a general in originals! She’s just more known by the monicker Princess but like that is just a title… it doesn’t mean anything. It’s the perfect example of how todya a lot of creators use shallow things as if they replace the substantial.
I'll pile on with all of the concurrences. First and foremost, male or female, make their characters with depth and flaws so they are interesting. Can't wait to hear you expound on the Mary Sue issue. Also, timely video given the recent release of an image of an armored and armed Galadriel from the new Amazon LOTR series (Vanity Fair had it, I saw it online). There's a reason this is the first impression they want to give, right? Strong female character needs sword and to be martial. I wonder if there was another option. Seems like there was a movie treatment that did a pretty fair job....
Oh boy. Well We'll see about the show. Galadriel was a boss for other reasons besides marshal. But...here we go. I'll try to reserve judgement until I see the show 🤣
To a lot of girls, I think that typical strong female character is often not very relatable. When all they are is tough, witty, and independent, most girls in their teens are still learning how to be those things. Another example of a heroine not like that is Sansa Stark. She was a silly girl to start with and very feminine but grew into a stoic badass and the readers/viewers went through that experience with her, making it that much more impactful and relatable. I’m kinda blabbing, but I have thought about this a lot and you laid it out perfectly!
Yes yes I completely agree! Hermione captivated so many young women because she was super intelligent but also sometimes made really dumb choices and got emotional and lonely and what have you. Girls need role models who show them it’s ok to not be strong all the time, too.
couldn't agree more. in the end, it's about the story, and I think if making a great story isn't the primary goal, but rather the primary goal of a character is to "make another Katniss" or "show how strongly strong she is," then the arrow will fall short of the mark
Wonderful video. A New Hope is based on Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress, and the character who inspired Leia, Princess Yuki, is a fantastic female character. She is a leader who puts herself in danger to help others. During their journey, she encounters one of her subjects (a young woman) who was sold into slavery. She goes out of her way to free her and lets her join their party. It's amazing to me that sometimes female characters in older films are written much better and are more empowering than the ones we have nowadays.
Yeah, pretty much agree with all of it. I mean.. Just drop the F part out of SFC tbh and the S while we're at it really... I shouldn't matter if the MC is male or female, or strong... As long as it's a well written, fully fleshed out 'Character' with strengths and weaknesses. Heck. even if the character only has weaknesses, but through those weaknesses drives forward the plot and has a cool arc to overcome obstacles in spite of said weaknesses and in turn grows stronger in some way or capacity. That coud still be an amazing and interesting read/watch. I'm now actually genuinely curious about whether you've seen arcane, and if so, wat you think of the lore, the storylines and the characters. I'd love to hear your take on caitlynn, vi and powder, especially in light of this whole SFC debate/thing.
Good video and I agree. It's something that I've tried to explain to people when the Ghostbusters 2016 film came out and people tried to say it was better at female empowerment over the likes of the female characters from the original GB films. People sleeping on Janine and Dana's strengths despite being supporting characters compared to the dumbing down of everyone to try and make those new GBs seem more competent. All that aside I am getting rather sick of this trope that in order to be "strong" you need to only take on traditional masculine qualities rather than playing into the strengths of traditional feminine qualities.
I agree so hard. I want to see nuanced characters display a wide variety of strengths. But the biggest problem I see with the SFC stereotype is that there is only room for one of them in your book/movie. If you've got one woman out there showing she's better than all the guys, and then you insert a second, both just start to look ordinary and it gets worse the more you add. I was actually thinking of Merida from Brave when you were talking about Captain Marvel. I loved both the character and movie, but they did raise her up by shoving everyone else down. A lot of it was for comedic effect, and it worked, but meanwhile her mother was a truly strong character throughout, with flaws and biases and agency, and she grew through the unfolding story.
Huh, I never thought of Merida that way because she did at least have personally and an arc of her own, but you’re right now that I think about it that all the men are shown as buffoons to emphasize her competence. Gee, thanks for ruining the movie for me!
I've realized recently that I love female characters who are powerful, but not warriors. So many times powerful characters are also warriors. I love good warrior characters, and I LOVE the Wonder Woman movie you referenced. But I also don't see myself as the warrior type, and don't identify as much with warrior characters. I don't know much about Galadriel's back story, outside of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, (I think she might have lead battles???) but I was telling my husband recently, that I think I'm so drawn to her in the main trilogy because of her powerfulness without being a warrior. I also because interested in Wheel of Time from watching a video on the magic system that said the Aes Sedai were powerful magic users, but had male body guards to protect them in battle. I'm not that far into the first book, and I don't know how they will hold up as powerful but not necessarily warriors. But it is something I'm actively looking for more now
Same, I haven't read The Silmarillion yet, but in LOTR Galadriel is the perfect example of a hugely strong character who is not a warrior. Like...she's THE QUEEN.
This was a thoughtful and well put together thesis. In fact, it broadened my understanding by suggesting traits that are more broad. Previously, i would assert traits like nurturing and still make sure they had weaknesses. Ultimately, providing the traits of "simply strong characters" provides more consistent outcomes. Oh, and Wonder Woman contrasted with Captain Marvel is an example i use as well.
Me when I see your list of "The actual SFC" traits: "Oh so you are saying they should just be great characters that follow great character logic." Exactly. Then you just spell it out for those who didn't pick up on the implications lol.
LOL. Yeah like it's really just bad writing - doesn't even have to be with only female characters, but it seems with female characters bad writing gets packaged "as good" and "strong" more than with male characters.
I agree completely. And regarding Leia, to my mind it felt worse because of Luke. Maybe it's just me, but Luke sneaking into his sleeping nephew's room in the dead of night, then peeking through his head, was disrespectful to the character. It seems to me like it was done specifically to make the SFC of that movie look morally superior, and make Leia look all the more impressive in how she continues to fight when Han and Luke have fled. He wanted to confront Ben? Why not ask him to go on a walk? A private meal? If it had to be done at that time, why not knock at his door? Call him to let him know they needed to talk *now*...? And why oh why did have to lie and make himself look even less sympathetic in our eyes? Man sneaking into sleeping nephew's room does have certain connotations after all. I feel like they wanted to make Rey something truly magnificent. And Episode 7 did a good job of starting that, it made millions of us wonder "Why is she so strong? How is she picking all this up at this pace?" We speculated, and there were good theories out there-like inheriting memories through touch. But in 8 they took the man everyone expected to be her mentor and turned him into the one who actually needed lessons. Turning Luke into a perv certainly was one way to go, but that doesn't mean it was the right way. Mediocre writer as I am, I can still think of several ways to make Rey look cool without assassinating Luke's character. I wanted to love Rey, I really did. But I couldn't. And she has single-handedly colored my opinion on any character introduced as an SFC. (To be clear, I don't hate everything in TLJ. There are things in there I liked, chief among them the idea of Rey coming from nothing. Not having a legacy to live up to-or shake off-shouldn't be this revolutionary an idea) And that's what the SFC is to me; someone who constantly puts down others--especially the men--in order to prove how cool she is. Personally I don't even mind a character who is perfect in every way, if they're not an FU to any group of people.
I cannot speak about the character assassination that was done to especially Luke. I was so angry and it’s clear Mark Hamill was extremely bummed with the way they took his character. I can’t imagine Lucas supported it. Ugh.
I love your analysis on this. I think more writers and show runners need to play DND... and the first thing the should do is go to the big book of flaws and start building their character from that. Flaws are what make us and while it's fun to play (write) the hero character. If you build them up from their flaws they become more real. Nynaeve is hands down my favorite female character because of her flaws. Actually I think she is really the main character of the wheel of time.
100% yes! I’ve been diving into many of these analyses for my own writing and you hit the nail on the head. Last year’s series on the variant hero arcs on KM Weiland’s blog (Helping Writers Become Authors) puts a lot of this in perspective as a heroine’s full life cycle takes on the role represented by Persephone(young maiden)/ Demeter (queen)/Hecate(crone). To follow a protagonist’s cycle that is defined not as a man on a hero cycle, but navigating the world-- and coming to a balance of both the masculine and feminine-- becoming true unto one-self, but strong (Merida of Brave, and Mirabel of Encanto accomplished this with heads held high) -- Is a hallmark of the True SFC.
(As KM Weiland caveats, either gender can fit into the various arcs, and remain true to themselves. They are archetypes, not rules.) And studying and understanding exactly what you’re describing can benefit the writing of any character, regardless of their gender. I’m always impressed by your ability to put these thoughts into words. Thank you.
I loved this video. The funny thing to me is that the "actual SFC" (which is spot on btw) is literally the exact same as a a good male character haha agency, weakness, talent, goals, etc. Great video!
Same goes for a male character in WoT, one of the audience's favorites.... Heavily, HEAVILY flawed, but also always trying to do the right thing at the end; Mat. What made them so loveable was that they had weaknesses that were identifyable, lack of skill with women, a bit of a scoundrel and in for fun...
A very thoughtful video! I've definitely noticed this trend in Hollywood for a long time. It definitely happens in books too, but through the years I've been able to find a wider variety of female characters in the sff genre in books. I think that's the key - variety. Women are just people, and we should see them as all kinds of people. I've often noticed, particularly in the adult epic sff genre, a drastic improvement in an author's female characters when they write more of them. It forces an author to think about what makes the characters different besides their 'femaleness'.
Bravissimo! 👏 A (female, self-described feminist) British reviewer on YT said a couple of years ago that her measure of a strong female character is whether you could just interchange the character with a male. If that's the case, the character is just a dude, with a woman cast to play him. Such strong characters as Leia, Ripley, and Sarah Connor (in the first couple of Terminators, anyway) are examples of great characters who are strong women. Gal Gadot said that when she was cast as Wonder Woman she insisted that WW not lose her femininity -- and the result was a great character, and a fine movie (WW 1984? Well...) Nicely said!
I recently read a piece in a magazine on film about the female anti-hero archetype being too tough, and intentionally spiteful to the detriment of its writing, and while I'm not going to argue that every depiction of a strong female character is good - I had lots of problems with Zetian from Iron Widow for lots of reasons - I find these discussions of the problems with strong female characters, or female characters who are anti-heroes to be an odd one. While I do agree that defining women's agency in terms of what is considered a masculine form of strength is not a good way to engender "good representation" of women in pop culture I think it can be limiting to also disregard it. Some of my favorite well written female characters often exhibit strengths that range from emotional intelligence (Crazy Ex-Girlfriend), quiet persistence in the face of tyranny (The Handmaids Tale and the Testaments), or simply deep complexity that is irreducible (Edna Pontellier from the Awakening). However, what always rubs me the wrong way about this argument is how it seems to be interested on a deeper level with a woman's likeability and agreeability as a character trait. I'm not accusing you of making that argument - you outlined the mary sue element more strongly and poor storytelling as a complicating factor; however whenever I see this argument that good female characters don't need to be intentionally demeaning, mean spirited, emotionally closed off, and hyper competent, I wonder why. Given that collectively, women who do display these traits in the real world are often worse off for being so (there are studies of women in the workplace who speak up being seen as less agreeable simply for speaking up), it reads often as a reflection of entrenched cultural beliefs about what women should be, rather than what they are. An interesting video, and something to chew on. Thank you, my friend.
Yes I see where you are coming from! I actually don’t mind dislikable female leads - like you said, women are often acceptable only if within a narrow mold - but I feel like when every single new female character I see is this way, it gets old. My favorite part of Carol honestly was her attitude lol like she didn’t give an eff about anyone. But that doesn’t mean I want her to never fail and be perfect - her only problem were the people around her, and that makes for a less compelling story.
@@Bookborn Perfectly fair. Weak storytelling is weak storytelling. I haven't seen Captain Marvel, so I'm in no position to judge its merits or lack thereof. But I've been tracking this recent discussion since it seems to be coming up more frequently of late. All the best!
I agree 100% with what you said. A great example of an SFC to me is Ripley from the first 2 alien movies, she is written so well and is universally loved.
As somebody who grew up with strong (and yes, flawed) female role models I started reading fiction FILLED with strong (again, flawed) women and it has ALWAYS annoyed me how the pandering to the "grrl pwr" crowd has been considered enough, but also that criticism of the trend is considered sexist. My first crush was a character in a book (Mildred Hubble, the worst witch. Not even embarrassed by the fact, I think I was 6 at the time. My NEXT crush was Wednesday Addams) From there I fell in love with so many wonderful, strong female characters. I "borrowed" Pratchett's Guards Guards from my brother when I was maybe 9 and become a huge fan instantly, and my school librarian introduced me to Anne McCaffrey when I was maybe 11 so some of my earliest reads had amazing women (from Granny Weatherwax, Nanny Ogg and Susan Sto-Helit to Lessa, Brekke, Menolly, Sharra. Lessa in particular is a favourite. Extremely strong, proud, brave and intelligent... but also often arrogant, overbearing and demanding) When I see Mary Sue or strictly non-feminine women as the only offers (rather than simply part of the spectrum, bc there's nothing *strictly* wrong with either) I get cross. It's robbing the audience of better stories and better characters to please a TINY fraction of people that will never be pleased. And on Leia. She was unironically and intentionally the most competent protagonist of the first movie and arguably the whole trilogy. But instead of diminishing the men by making her do everything, she was put into shit situations, presented with flaws AND her sharp tongue had OBVIOUS cause (she wasn't JUST a spoiled princess) Maybe they weren't "brave enough" to make her into a bigger protagonist "bc female heroes don't sell" or whatever (something which I'm not sure has ever been true) but I think her *character* would have been diminished for it.
Yes yes yes. Love all the ones you listed - especially Pratchett’s witches and of course the legend McAffrey - I’m planning on doing a video about how it’s perceived women heroes don’t sell but is it true? It’ll be a while because I need stats but I agree - I think it’s a perception that’s just not accurate
I really liked your list of traits for a strong character... I'd say that "character arc" is one of the most important... and typically requires GROWTH of some sort... growth acquired by EFFORT on her part. She needs to WORK for it, not have it simply GIVEN to her... and SOME of that effort needs to be SHOWN. Contrast Spiderman with Capt. Marvel or Rey. Spidey gets bitten by a spider... which GIVES him his abilities... but THEN he is SHOWN developing/training those abilities. Wonder Woman is BORN with her abilities... but the filmmakers SHOW her WORKING to train those abilities. Luke Skywalker is "born" with his abilities... but we see him doing a little training with Ben on the Falcon... and then far more on Dagoba with Yoda. Black Widow at least TELLS some of what she went through to gain her skills (in the movies prior to Black Widow). Rey? Rey beats man who DID train for years (Ben Solo), right off the bat... Of course, when the character starts off being perfect... there's nowhere to go but DOWN, so that generally ruins any possibility of improvement... Without flaws or weaknesses (ie: Superman's kryptonite) there's no risk to the character, so no sense of concern about what is going to happen to them. (investment) The FLAW is what enables (or propels) the character arc (development).
This. All of this. Personally I feel like strong characters should be strong regardless of their gender, not despite it. And you have some great examples there. My personal fave is Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
I was hoping someone would mention Buffy. It's a shame that such a great character seems to have been forgotten as the years go by. I guess the show is dated in some ways and of course the creator being problematic doesn't help. But Buffy is a wonderful character and was ground-breaking at the time. It hurts seeing her get overlooked these days
Absolutely. Honestly the good character traits we discuss here apply to absolutely any gender - it’s just good character writing. And buffy for sure belongs on the list!
Hi Bookborn, I wasn't sure how to send this to you directly so I'm hoping you see this comment here. I know your name is BOOK born, but I have a strong recommendation. Have you ever heard of the old Super Nintendo video game Chrono Trigger? It's a JRPG and it's fantastic! The story and music are SO good. I would totally watch you play that game through, edited for time, of course, with your reactions. (The battle sequences would not be very important.) There are some interesting twists in the story and I think even a book-born person can appreciate the quality of that story. There are some very dramatic moments. I think you could have a ton of fun playing that game, even if you generally don't like video games. It came out in the mid-90's and although it is now often recognized as one of the best games of all time, it still doesn't get the respect it deserves, IMHO. It's the kind of game that can make a grown man cry. Please look into it! Thanks! :)
OOohhh ok! Do you know if it's available through the nintendo online store? (Like I've played a lot of the super nintendo games on the Switch that way). I'm down for a game even if I don't review it since I love video games :)
@@Bookborn Well, if you love video games then this is a must-play. They did a Playstation remake a few years later which is the same game with some anime cut scenes, but the SNES version is what I know and love, the anime scenes are a bit much IMHO. I looked it up, it seems that it has not yet been ported to the Switch. There is a version for Nintendo DS also, if you have the DS or 3DS then you can try that too. You can play it through an emulator, which is how I like to do it. You can also get an SNES bluetooth rechargeable controller from Amazon or eBay to use the original controls. snes9x is a solid emulator and you can get the ROM (game file) from a site like wowroms dot com. Some RUclipsrs have done reaction play-throughs like I suggested, you could look those up if you want to see one. Sometimes I put on a Chrono Trigger orchestrated playlist in the background while cleaning or working... It has such amazing music! I will still want to know what you think if you play it, so please respond here if you don't make a video about it! =D
@@Bookborn And I just wanted to add, in relation to this video, that there are _several_ strong female characters in the game. At least 4, actually, and they are all great!
Cirsea Lannister is an amazing SFC without the masculine traits, as well as Danearys. I love when its grounded in reality, and the SFC Brienne of Tarth even looked realistically as a women who could physically whoop some dudes. Margaery Tyrell was another SFC....most of the SFC in GOT using their feminity and intellect to be successful in their own right. The best part about it? It wasn't shoved in your face "look I'm strong female choke and die on awesomeness" They just were, in a natural sort of way.
Im curretly reading The veil throne , and since seeing the title of the video i have but one character in mind Jia Matiza, she is becoming my favorite character in the series .
Oh that would be a great video. There are so many good ones in fantasy books! I find shows/movies tend to be worse when it comes to the bad versions of the SFc
@@Bookborn You could do two lists or combine them, it would be interesting to see what characters in your opinion are great examples of SFC in media and how it can be good if done well.
Totally agree that making male characters look stupid don't make the women strong. Agelmar, LTT were both awesome male characters that could have allowed strong female characters to shine bouncing off of and interacting with them, but instead they were turned into one-dimensional caricatures of "toxic masculinity" to the extent that the Breaking of the frigging World was caused by MaLe ArRoGaNcE which really cheapened the whole narrative.
I mean idk if WoT really understood what they were doing in any of those scenes like I don’t get the end game there. What purpose was served by changing Agelmar in particular 😩
Yes! The SFC! I’m here for it! And on the DiD! (Comment just blipped out of existence) and the Mary Sue! Only spoiler thus far is for Stormlight character mention! Yes! Diana as Wonder Woman is exemplary role model of the ideal SFC who has flaws that are endearing, funny and uplifting of the character! However, Danvers as WRITTEN is flawed for the very reason that she is WRITTEN as character-perfect. You nailed your perspective on both! The writers were TELLING the story and near talking almost down to the audience rather than taking audience in...and folks need to understand that actors aren’t necessarily the WRITERS for their character or their film’s directors. Yes! Princess Leia is the badass rebel who galvanizes well ahead of not-yet Jedi Luke and still reluctant rogue pilot Han who flies solo...as with rey, who was written without agency and must be GIVEN powers without having striving and without agency or even accurate in-world training on basics like fighting stance with a saber... so WW is the ideal SFC, however mythic she is. I will say that the ongoing journey of Wanda Maximoff, the Scarlet Witch, is being done right! You got it all right! In fact , you need a part 2 for the other notable characters often compared to Danvers and Leia respectively and why they don’t work on several levels and aspects AS WRITTEN. Also, people: the actors aren’t the writers for their character. At least not the primary core writer/directors of their film characterizations. Great starter talk!
And subtext: “STRONG...for a Girl!” Sexist notions feeding into unquestioned assumptions that are inherently and through and through sexist. Overcompensation as a response is itself sexist since female protagonists MUST be GIVEN abilities because surely they cannot struggle and strive and earn it for themselves!
Yes yes so much you said I completely agree with. Talking down to the audience - it’s happening more and more and it’s so annoying. Trust the audience to understand complex stories. We can!
Oh and rabbit hole thought: the “primadonna” pejorative actually historically applies to major actors: Baldwin and the famous cut or keep beard kerfuffle during filming of The Edge survival movie. Or even one my favorites Russell Crowe in Gladiator hating the line “in this life or the next” but finally relenting (although I love everything about Gladiator film and cast). Gather round around this mound, ladies, in frame, and let’s take on this sexist patriarchy! Oh wait. Still not over how they write Captain Marvel Danvers though, man, or Luke in Disney’s deep pockets fanfic.
So glad of this video, honestly one thing of the many things i dislike from Modern Hollywood. I don't see why this type of character so appealing ( the bad version) as its just a bad idealisation of the struggles woman go through day to day. If anything, I think its worse for the current youth as gives such awful expectations. One thing that urks me the most is diminishing females femininity, because that's now considered " weakness". Anyways a nice examination of this topic.
I'm subscribing! Love your analysis on this kind of character type. The whole montage of Carol being discouraged all her life by men, is like pouring salt on a meal and then not stopping. Getting a point across by being so hard on the head eventually just ruins our taste for it.
YES such a good way to put it. It’s not that the concept was bad… it’s that hitting us over the head with it 80 times took any possible nuance or interest right out of the story
Very good! Without the female characters the books and movies would be very boring. Star Wars wouldn't have been the same without the Princess Lea character being so driven. Actually, it was the first time I had seen a female character like that back in 1977. Prior to that it seemed like we only saw the damsel in distress. I think another great example might be Eowyn from the Lord of the Rings. (Return of the King) That was a great scene when she puts on the armor and rides into battle with Meriadoc despite being told no by Theoden. Of course, Vin in the Mistborn trilogy had her special powers but at the same time was untrusting. Great Video.
Oh man Eowyn is one of my favorite, and I think I actually put her picture in my montage at the end but it was quick lol She is the PERFECT example of an SFC that's fallen out of fashion in hollywood. She's feminine, beloved by her people, and even has an unrequited romance - things that may seem "weak" to the hollywood ideal - yet she rides into battle, is a freaking MOFO and kills a Nazgul, AND takes compassion on Merry, who she views as being in the same marginalized position as herself. She's just the best. Sorry to rant about that 😅
My favorite SFCs are Jen Scott from Power Rangers:Time Force, Tayler and Allyssa Enllé from Power Rangers: Wild Fore, and many others both from other Power Rangers series and other franchises in general
This is a great explanation. But also, actually not every female character has to be strong! Eleanor in The Haunting of Hill House (the book) and the protagonist of Midsommer are examples of weak characters. They're mostly aimless and allow themselves to be led or pushed by others, but that doesn't mean they're badly written. It's understandable that since historically there's been a lack of strong female characters, readers and critics are asking for more of them, but still not every female character has to fit in even the wider definition of "strong".
Good analysis. However I differ on two specific things: Vin was a character created in 2006 with obviously the release of The Final Empire. Long before the appearance of Katniss Everdeen (2008: publication year of The Hunger Games) and the stereotype of "the strong female character" became popular. In addition to that, Vin is a very complex character with many nuances so that you have to pigeonhole her into said archetype.
I actually think Vin is very complex :) I just think she fits the strong female archetype the most. Like Katniss, I think Vin fits her story and does have weaknesses!
I try to go for diversity of character types. I have multiple female characters in my stories and take advantage of that to provide some variety. Like, some are traditionally feminine and conservative. They are the supportive types who think their husbands are in charge. Others are not that at all, instead locking horns with others (men) and taking control where they can. You can get away with this when you have variety.
Understandable especially if a period piece but even then there are notables. Also there are those that fall into neither camp and just are. Not damsels nor Briennes of Tarth.
What a great example princess Leia was :) I have a quick note to add. I think that if the writer wants the female character to seem strong, then she needs to bleed. You won't believe what I'ma say next, but the Witcher season 2 actually did this really well XD Ikr? I didn't see this coming either XDD This notion comes from the recent Black Widow movie. She takes ALL THE HITS and doesn't lose a shade of makeup. She bleeds in the end when she breaks her own nose, but not when she survives multiple car crashes. So um... yea... Women bleed too XD
Three thoughts: 1. A.P. Canavan used a phrase the other day (I’m fairly certain it was in the discussion of a Star Trek Discovery episode with Steven Erikson) that sums of the proliferation of Katniss-like “SFCs” (and Hollywood in general): “a superficial copying of the events without any understanding of what made it interesting to begin with.” 2. Other typical attributes of “SFCs”: young, hot, and being pursued by multiple suitors (or trying to catch the eye of one). Nothing wrong with any of those things, but why can’t we get actual SFCs who are older than 30, unattractive, and/or married with/without children? 3. Probably stupid question from someone who has not consumed any Star Wars media except via cultural osmosis: Shouldn’t it be “General Skywalker” (or whatever her surname is)? Do other generals go by their given name, instead of surname? OK, 4. I really appreciated the review of Leia’s agency in the movies. None of that is transmitted through cultural osmosis. Slave bikini and sibling incest were literally the only things I could have associated with the character before this video. 😅
That quote in number one!! YES! That absolutely perfectly describes what has happened to Katniss copies. Agreed about two as well, although this often plagues men too - apparently only hot, attractive and mostly white people get super powers 🤣 And finally I’m so glad I could help disabuse you of your Leia notions 💀💀💀 don’t judge her by her metal bikini! She kills the guy who does it to her herself!
Completely agree. The SFC is pretty much reduced in scope as a person. They have no depth or substance. I loved ypur wonderwoman example, because it showed a SFC that also embraces femininity without reducing the character, whereas a lot of SFC's act more like men. It's also patronising to make it seem that the only way you can be "strong" as a woman is to act like a man with masculine traits. It does not help either when they handicap the men around the SFC, because it just creates a narrative that the only way a woman can seem strong is if you diminish the men around them. But this is nothing new. In almost every advertisement, men are portrayed as incompetent childlike buffoons, while the women are portrayed as mature adults. It's very subtle in some cases, but in my opinion, it just diminishes the Female characters. Ripley in Alien was a good Character. In fact, the majority of the time, good female characters are when it isn't forced on you. Unfortunately, we seem to have come to a point where if women are portrayed as anything less than perfect, then it's called misogyny by some very vocal extremists.
Great topic, I would have liked to see some more case studies. I think Star Wars is a great example of how to do a strong female character well, both Leia and Rey.
Rey to me falls under a Mary Sue so while I love the idea of her character, I don’t love her execution as much as Leia. But Star Wars has always done a decently good job of having good characters period!
Rey definitely walks the Mary Sue line but I’d contest she stays on the right side of it. I may just be biased since I enjoyed Daisy Ridley’s portrayal of Rey so much.
@@RockMonsterDad Oh man I love Daisy Ridley too. She brought such great energy to the role and just felt like a jedi. I don't think it was her fault at all - I think it was messy scripting (I have a lot of problems with the sequels that have absolutely nothing to do with the actors, who I think did an excellent job).
I agree. I also think the SFC is also kinda misogynistic bacause in order to be considered strong, she has to take on more stereotypically masculine traits. That's why i love Legally blonde so much. It goes completely against that idea. The Take also has a good video about why Cinderella isn't just a damsel in distress who needs the prince to save her, but why she is actually a very strong woman.
Oh it absolutely is! It’s rooted in all of our internalized misogyny that feminine equals bad and weak and masculine is good and strong. And I can’t believe I left out Elle Woods - the ultimate strong female character!
Wonderful and insightful video, as always! Great case studies and strong female character criteria. While I don’t disagree with you, I prefer the word “complex” or “layered” rather than “strong.” No one is one positive quality all the time, and exploring different layers is what fascinates me as a reader. I would also love to see more female friendships in fantasy and sci-fi more than anything. Would love any recommendations, especially in adult SFF! ✨
Hi Johanna, Terry Pratchett's Witches books!
@@derrisreaditbefore Thank you! I definitely need to check that out! My plan is to read on in the City Watch books first, but I'm excited to get to the Witches as well!
OK YES! I kept trying to figure out in this video how I could differentiate between the fake SFC and the real one, and I think changing it to "complex" or "layered" is WAY better. We don't want SFCs, we want CFCs!!
The Sword of Kaigen, The Dandelion Dynasty, War Girls, Dread Nation, The Books of Babel
I personally feel as if this is not an entirely correct way of framing it either though.... because a character can be layered or complex, and yet still not be a strong person in any way. At least, if you think of strong as an attribute which some characters can have; but less-so, I suppose, if you are thinking of a strong character specifically as simply being a character that is developed well.
You can be strong without being strong literally all the time. And you can be strong, even while still having other flaws or weaknesses too. ^-^
I agree with all of your points. To add another thought to this, the "SFC" now has very few femininity traits, if any. It feels like the writers/ film industry is saying or can only see women as strong if they have mostly male traits.
Exactly. Modern “feminism” really doesn’t appreciate femininity, it equates “strength” with masculinity and thus feels it needs to make its women more like men and, worst of all, make them out to be better than other women for it. This is not a celebration of femininity, it is an abuse of it.
That was exactly the point I was going to add. 100% agree.
Also subtext: “STRONG...for a GIRL!”
Yes, there are predominately butch or femme men & women in the world, in all definable factors or just a few: any predilection for traditional personality traits (manly or womanly) don't define one's gender identification. And because of historical sexism in the social and legal system, it's far more rewarding for a female to imitate manly traits in order to gain social credit than it is for a male to imitate womanly traits.
Also, because woman are so frequently disenfranchised from power, they are taught to seek out monogamous male partners that are born with clearly male traits that are financially rewarded by their specific society: deeper voices, taller and wider skeletal frames, thick hair, low body fat, symmetric facial features, etc. in addition to wealth AND mate for life. The entire premise for most fiction is based on characters following these rules because that's how OUR society functions -without magic, without advanced tech that make the strength advantage that men have irrelevant.
Fiction needs to let male dominated social values go the way slavery, monarchy and solid gold coins. Ok, maybe not the coins, those are fun.
@@Yertle_Turtle sorry but I like my fiction to mirror reality, to some degree. And the reality is that throughout history, the vast majority of people that "get shit done", are men. Men will always be stronger and faster. Blame testosterone and genetics. Not men.
Ahsoka Tano is one my favorite SFC. Not shoehorned in, has her flaws, and we get to see her character growth.
Yes many people have mentioned Ahsoka. Great example!
One of my favorite “SFC”’s that I think even predated Katniss (at least movie Katniss anyway) is Kim Possible. She is THE strong female character, able to do anything she puts her mind to; but she’s also flawed, admiring the status quo and trying to appeal to the peers around her. Ironically, despite the fact that she’s “popular”, Ron Stoppable, her male counterpart, friend and sidekick turned partner, I’d very confident and aware of who he is, choosing to reject the status quo in favor of individuality. Both traits are admirable and neither are put down or told as being the “right thing” but they do start to impact each other, especially as their relationship grows. Ron grows more into his ability and starts to apply his strengths moving from a sidekick to a partner role (even saving Kim at the end of the series). Kim grows more into herself, accepting the sides of her that do not fit the “status quo” and coming to accept herself in a way that showcases much more of her confidence (even disregarding Bonnie’s catty remarks and not even considering breaking up with Ron or changing herself) which helps her to be stronger in all ways. To me, they are an ideal pair of a Strong Female Character and Male Character.
The good SFC you mention can also be relatable to both male and female readers since a good character is just relatable always. That’s why I love Shallan
Absolutely. Which is why the characters with no struggles or flaws usually fall short.
Bit of an older video but the female characters in the Expanse TV show are maybe the best versions of the ‘actual SFC’ category. In fact, Avasarala, Naomi, Drummer and Gunney Draper are not only great characters in the Expanse, they are some of the best characters in all of TV
One female character I liked was Chrisjen Avasarala in the Expanse novel series portrayed by the actress Shohreh Aghdashloo in the Amazon show. She is an older woman elegant and charming yet will curse like a truck driver. She’s an astute politician who can be quite cruel at moments such as overseeing the torture of a Belter revolutionary for information or using deception to trash the career of a colleague in order to advance her agenda. But she is also warm hearted and caring to her husband and grandchildren and deep inside she has a sadness from the death of a son. Chrisjen is physically very weak but she will use her political strengths of gossip, innuendo, deception along with her knowledge of state craft and the technical workings of the UN bureaucracy to get her goals accomplished. Many of her choices have been wrong but when shown the truth of what is going on she comes to make the right choice even at the potential cost of her entire career.
Yes so many people have mentioned expanse. I want to read the books so I can watch the show!
@@Bookborn The Expanse is one of the VERY few cases I know of where you can watch the show or read the book series independently, without it affecting the other. The show does an incredible job of adaptation while keeping the spirit of the written, but DOES make some broad-stroke changes (character swaps, minor plot arcs, etc) to fit the media or on-screen chemistry.
I'd go so far as to say that it would be *better* to watch the series first, before reading it (and I can't think of any other series I would say that about).
Expanse is really great.
Granted, you won’t quite get quotes like _this_ anywhere but from the books, so YMMV:
"She was not a political creature. She felt that politics was the second most evil thing that humanity had ever invented, just after lutefisk." - Anna
Epilogue: Anna, Abbadon's Gate, Book 3 of "The Expanse" series, by James S. A. Corey
excellent point. Similar comment could be made about Naomi Nagata as well.
I think Encanto is a good example because it has fantastic female characters with varying types of strengths.
Yes I feel like recently Disney cartoons have been doing a decent job at least!
Also just rewatched the original star wars with my little one! Leia is serious and tough. She hides her feelings for Han and seems torn between her obligations and her own happiness. But she refuses to compromise and forces Han to meet her on her level. What a great character
YES! She is such a realized person and a great role model, tbh.
Other thing that I hate with a "Strong" female character is that they think they have to make her stoic or emotionless.
Because being emotional is seen as a weakness and that's just wrong. It makes us human... I don't want to read or watch a robot (unless it's an actual robot 😅)
You then have to watch AMC’s Humans after Captain Marvel and Eternals. Just. Good times.
Writers crib from reality, so they write woman as stoic because those women know that to demonstrate their natural range of emotion would allow men in power to attack them for their natural femininity in an attempt to demonstrate that a woman's natural range of emotion inhibits a woman's ability to manipulate others (through intimidation, empathy, demonstrating resolve or other methods of leadership) with the same effectiveness as a man. Like a traditional greed for money, most powerful men will undermine their competitors for power using most tools at hand.
It's a very traditional vector for character assassination used against women, that's why they write the women as stoic so often. Do you want to consume fiction that avoids this truism of our lives?
@@Yertle_Turtle wtf are you on about. It's fiction, both men and women can express emotion and both men and women can manipulate. Weirdo.
@@hellgast0 judging from her other comment she's a triggered feminist. I'm gonna call it like I see it.
True. Championing psychopathy
Great breakdown of what the differences are and why Hollywood especially (obviously this happens in books too, but it REALLY happens in film/tv) keeps falling into this trap. I'm surprised you didn't mention the Endgame moment which was just the cringiest thing possible haha.
It’s because I have done everything in my power to forget that endgame moment exists and here you are, reminding me
Omg. I groaned so loud in the theater when that happened!!
That’s right! Endgame committed the biggest disservice to the comic book individual characters that lead, aren’t just in the mix - Avengers and X-Men - stand shoulder to shoulder but exceed in their badassness without being all “all da ladies” corralled together. They would NOT have time for a “moment” of contrived “fan service” to “da wimmens” in da audience, in the literal battlefield.
A touchy subject, but points well articulated. I tend to only notice the generic, Hollywood SFC when the story grinds to a halt to hit me over the head with it, something the Supergirl show, for instance, seemed inclined to do constantly. If I'm invested in a story, I try to give the creators the benefit of the doubt in revealing enough layers to a character...but sometimes what you see is absolutely what you get.
As to the Leia point, I think she was probably diminished the least in the Disney trilogy (though I've still never seen RoS) out of the main three, but I still vastly preferred her journey in the Expanded Universe. Balancing her duty to her displaced people, suitors of varying caliber, motherhood and the subsequent challenges/grief, fostering her Jedi abilities, fiercely protecting her loved ones, continuing the fight against he Empire and other factions as a rebel, diplomat, Chief of State... People talk about Mara Jade being the best female EU character, but Leia absolutely continues to hold everything together, even when she's a grandmother.
Sorry. Star Wars was mentioned, I give excited rants. Feel free to disregard/like whatever version of characters/franchises you like.
Ugh don’t even get me started on Han and Luke - ESPECIALLY LUKE. the character assassination 😭😭😭
I agree that Leia was the least ruined in the Disney trilogy but it still missed the mark about what made her so great, like you articulated.
@@Bookborn Honestly, watching the new movies is what got me back into the books, so at least something good came of it! I'd kinda fallen off keeping up when they announced they were rebooting (though I did try a few of the new ones), but going back to the "real" story helped save my love for Star Wars. Even hearing good things about some of the new shows and such doesn't really pique my interest anymore, 'cause they killed my investment when the killed off the Skywalker/Solos.
And, bringing back around to strong female characters done right, I think the Expanded Universe executes that far better, for the most part.
Loved seeing Anne Shirley, Jo March, Elizabeth Bennet and Miryem from "Spinning Silver" among the actual SFCs!
One potential way to show a greater range of strengths and talents in female characters would be to jettison the "Smurfette Principle" (one heroine per story) for good and create more stories that showcase different kinds of female characters with a variety of strengths.
ABSOLUTELY. I forgot about the Smurfette Principle! When there are multiple women characters in the story to play off of, the ability to showcase different personality traits and strengths becomes much easier - and the characters are better for it.
Katniss everdeen is a well written character. Don't why people hate her.
I think we're definitely starting to get pushback against the idea that for a woman to be a strong character, she must lack traditionally feminine qualities and be seen as more masculine.
Yes I think so too, and it’s about time. Yet somehow WoT show missed the memo a bit 😬
Buffy Summers is one of my favorite SFC with one of the best narrative arc written in TV.
Most people don't realize that when Joss Whedon created Buffy, it was done with the intention of subverting the common tropes of the blonde female always the damsel in distress and the final girl. Buffy is a repudiation of those tropes and stereotypes where female characters like Ripley and Sarah Conner continue to play to those tropes .
One of my favorite SFCs is Bobbie draper from the Expanse. The show uses her strengths and motivations really well, and still finds flaws to make her human and relatable. Tbh, the expanse always does women characters justice. Would recommend you check that out!
I was just reading about this the other day! I recommend reading the essay called Strong Female Characters vs. Varied Female Characters by Krista D. Ball. It deals with this exact topic plus a few more stereotypes.
She has a whole collection of SFF essays called Apropriately Aggresive: Essays About Books, Corgies, and Femenism.
Ok VARIED is the perfect word and I can already tell I'm going to like that essay. I'll for sure look it up
Honestly you hit the nail right on the head with your analysis. I've always enjoyed good and strong female characters, but I've noticed in recent years that the mary sue has been very prevalent. Flawless characters just aren't interesting and imo makes those "SFCs" worse.
I wish more (Hollywood) writers would understand this, they definitely should watch this video!
I wouldn't say the SFC is exactly a Mary Sue. While they share many flaws the SFC tends to be more grounded and stoic compared to the typically more quirky and special May Sue.
I'm glad you put this video up. It seems like too often people conflate being pushy, stubborn, and unlikable with strength. Sookie Stackhouse is the perfect example of this.
She's probably the worst character I've ever read. She has no respect for anybody despite their station, yet she demands everybody treat her with the utmost respect when she won't give the same courtesy. She is stubborn to the point of putting herself and other people in danger for no reason. "Oh, you guys are going to fight 3000 year old vampire? I'm coming too. And if you want to stop me you'll have to knock me out and tie me up. And when we get there I'll mouth off to him because I know you two will be there to protect me even though realistically you are no match for him and only the plot will actually keep me alive."
A strong character, and I can't emphasize this enough, knows their limitations and doesn't just throw themselves headlong into a situation because it's there. Sure, a strong character can fumble around like that, but when it becomes a personality trait that's a whole different story.
I can't wait for the day where we replace strong female character with strong character. Because to make a strong female character one must make a strong character. To me, the traits of strength are the same within men and women.
I agree 100%! One of my favorite fictional female characters of all time is Meg from Written In Blood by Anne Bishop. Meg is physically weak and horribly naïve at the start of the book because she just escaped captivity. But she quickly wins the hearts of the Others (nonhumans) living in the city she escaped to because she is kind, considerate, and willing to learn/grow. She falls squarely into the category of a strong female character for me because of this. She is so courageous and compassionate, and I love it!
We need more people to understand that being physically strong, broody, and “not like other girls” does not necessarily make a SFC.
Yes for sure! And that probably makes Meg more relatable too because those traits are something we can all possess despite not having magical powers lol
I think Misaki from sword of Kaigen is very strong female character yeah she was good at fighting but she was a mother and goes through a lot of character growth. Plus the women has flaws but she recognises them and ready to move on and it wasn't instant she took time to realise her flaws and loss so in exchange.
Ok Misaki is amazing, I actually put her in my picture list but I don't think anyone recognizes the fan art LOL. It also goes to show why having MULTIPLE female characters is so important. Misaki is contrasted by her two female friends who are also mothers - but who are completely different than her. However, none of these women are put down for their lifestyle choices; we aren't to believe Misaki is better than them because she is a warrior; they all get to exist in their own sphere and in their own way. THAT'S power.
Well said. I think an extension of what you said about the character propelling the plot forward is that they do so in ways only they themselves can based on what we know about them. Princess Leia isn't "bossy/snarky", she's one of the ruler's of a planet, a senator representing her planet, AND a covert leader of a rebellion against tyranny, and every choice and character quirk of hers are evidence of that.
Extremely well said. And hey maybe she is a little bossy but like she’s the boss so it’s earned LOL
This is so great! You're really helping me understand why I so appreciate the characters Merida and Moana.
Very well thought out per usual. You are so right about the Leia point and the force flying scene in particular. Part of what I love about Leia in the OG trilogy and Padme in the prequels are the natural leadership and resourceful qualities that are more of this World than the fantasy force magic that make relative loners (which isn’t a bad quality, but is easier than leading) Luke and Anakin the “heroes” (quotes for our boi Anakin) that they are.
Yes, yes yes. And I don't mind if they want to say that Leia trained in the force - that's cool and interesting - but like it doesn't mean she gets to force fly through space. Why can't she just be like the other jedi? And would she really have wanted to train? Probably not in the same way as Luke. She was TOO BUSY actually RUNNING the galaxy lol!
First, thank you for being a strong female character. The problem is probably linked to creators not knowing or appreciating strong females in real life. It seems similar to authors writing about people of color and using stereotypes in lieu of familiarity. My favorite characters include Xena Warrior Princess, Ayla from the Clan of the Cave Bear series, and Eowyn from LOTR (books, not movie).
Eowyn is just 😍. Such a good example of an SFC.
And I agree. It’s clear evidence of why diversity in the room is SO importsntn
Insightful and well spoken analysis. Another example is Alita Battle Angel who was a wonderful heroine. A living weapon, but expressing the same tender longings everyone has. The contrast between her power and her having the desires and emotions that make everyone vulnerable, is what is so great about her conceptually. The truth is, it takes more strength and bravery to be vulnerable than to beat a supervillain, especially when you have the advantage of superpowers.
This is so well done. I agree completely. We forget that to make a character good, they have to be relatable and developed. Show runners now seem to think that if their female leads struggle, it will be viewed as negative to women. I think about Galadriel in the Rings of Power. They took one of my favorite characters in Tolkien's world and they turned her from a smart, talented, magician and stately queen and turned her into a stubborn, bull-headed, sword swinger... but that was the way to make her the SFC we all "want" to see. I have seen Shallan used as an example of a good female character... but I would also through in Navani. She is an incredibly strong character, but not with a sword... but with her intellect and cunning. She is also flawed and self-concious and that really helps build her character and round it out so she is relatable! She also doesn't detract from Dalinar... they both have their own agency and their own story to tell.
Navani is on of my favorite characters, I approve of this message
@@Bookborn mine as well!! Re-reading and going through the occupation of Urithiru. She's amazing even before being radiant :-)
💯 % I especially loved the fact that these should be the traits of all strong characters - regardless of male or female. Also would love it if there was more than one in the story. Let us see strength in many and in varied ways!
Yessss it’s so funny like there’s some sort of quota “let’s just have one woman in the room that’s enough”. The more lets us show the many ways a woman (or man or person) can be strong
100% agree with practically everything you said. I would also say that the kind of strength that comes with the stereotypical “SFC” seems to be more masculine in nature and physical. It implies inadvertently that stereotypical female traits are weaker when in fact qualities such as sensitivity, empathy, naivety etc. (Often considered to be feminine traits) can make a character stronger (both men and women). Lovely video though and ty for the great content
Yes, exactly! It inadvertently continues to link femininity with weakness and masculinity to strength - hurting both genders
I think most everyone will agree with you on this.
Even though I've always hated when people rush to call EVERY capable female character a "Mary Sue," & automatically get pissy when they see a female lead (particularly in an established franchise), there are many "SFC's" that totally miss the mark.
Eliminating weakness is one obvious issue, but the more annoying one is what you touched upon - making every male around them either A) incompetent or B) completely doubtful & unsupportive in any way. Being as heavy handed as repeated flashbacks showing men telling them "you can't do this/you'll fail!" is bad enough, but when that basically amounts to your character's entire identity it eye-roll inducing.
It reminds me of when I was in high school & would watch movies/tv shows set in high schools & how totally off it all felt... It was like every writer & director thought all schools were just this cliché environment of giving weggies to anyone who had the audacity to wear glasses, putting kids in lockers in front of teachers who just laughed along with them, and anyone with a decent car had a line of people waiting to give them BJ's after class...
It was all so corny & awkward, it felt like NOBODY had talked to a high school kid in decades. In a similar way, some SFC's seem written by people who just write in clichés & have no idea how to write a female character. There's also a weird, albeit smaller, trend where people get upset when female protagonists are considered too attractive? A lot of angry comments I read regarding WW involved how Gal Gadot was just there for "eye candy" & her outfit was too "sexualized..."
Seemed unfair to the actress, as well as ignorant to the lore-reasoning surrounding Amazon mythology & their ties to ancient Greek/Roman culture. Didn't mean for this comment to go on for so long, but I want people to realize there's a difference between SFC's & "Mary Sue's." Not all female characters are just there to be "woke."
Yes, SUCH a good point about the difference between real SFC's and Mary Sues. I actually have a Mary Sue vid in the works, and your comment has inspired me to make sure to highlight the difference between a strong character with skills vs. what a Mary Sue actually is.
I shall defend Gal Gadot to the end. It's not her fault everyone in the super hero universe has to be ridiculously hot. I mean look at every Marvel hero LOL. And the thing about her outfits - the gaze of the lense is absolutely not about her body, but rather what she can do. It's not wrong for women to wear revealing clothing, it's only annoying when it's for specifically the male gaze. Nothing about the movie WW says "male gaze".
Great video! Tbh I'm usually scared to watch or read discussions about this topic because I feel like a lot of peole just use it to hate on the idea of women with traits that are considered to be masculine. And while feminine characters are great I still want to get variety of different type of women in fiction (as we should honestly).
Regarding Captain Marvel I loved that movie but I agree it was weak in regards of making her an interesting and fully realised character. It worked for me however for making me feel seen and empowered, it was very much escapism and wish fullfillment for me :)
Also one thing I would add is that typical 'strong female characters' still always have to look feminine enough, there is no variation in terms of how they look. Male charcters are more often allowed to not look coventionally attractive or have dfferent body types (it doesn't mean that they don't have that problem as well, just not to that extent)
Really great video!!!! I know I am not the target audience for this type of character but I do agree with basically all the points!! Specially I think that making a character whose only trait is to be "strong" and "independent" harms the character's popularity more than having a "weak" character. Though I have to say, I can understand that the writers do this things sometimes because there have been a lot of instances where people hate a female character for being weak (yes, I'm talking about Shallan. There are really legit critics some people make to her character but she is WAY overhated in my opinion, and in Rythm of War there was actually a beautiful scene where she and Adolin talked about strength, which was fantastic).
Anyway, one point I would also like to add is that some people often think that putting a character (specially a female character) in a romantic relationship somehow makes them "weak" or something. I think the number of people who think this has reduced with the years but just... Why? I get that reducing a character to only being a romantic interest is just awful writing, but characters CAN show strength while also being in a relationship!! Like, I can think of Vin, Inej from Six of Crows, Annabeth from Percy Jackson, Leia, Sypha Belandes, a lot of characters from Spanish author called Victoria Álvarez, Shallan in her own way, Eowyn and Boa Hancock in the sense that having crushes doesn't reduce their strength or power..... And those are just the ones I remember at the moment, I'm sure there are more
Yes absolutely! Unfortunately a small minority like to be loud on the internet it seems that lacks nuance. As long as characters have agency, romantic story lines are simply a fact of life and usually very enjoyable. Shallan’s weaknesses are what make her such a fascinating character. She would truly be a weaker character without them.
omg Hillary, this is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. 💯💯💯💯 You have so many great videos but this is among the best. You nailed it. I have a thousand thoughts but let me highlight one thing you slipped in there. For decades it's been a thing in Star Wars "why didn't Chewie get a medal"? Why we haven't heard the same question about Leia not getting a medal is beyond me 🤷♂🙄😡 So glad you pointed that out.
Like I mean Chewie deserved a medal too, I get it....but YES why not Leia?? I guess it's because she's so important that she's just giving 'em out so she doesn't feel the need to reward herself 🤣
as always, great video!!
i agree with you. most of my favorite characters are people who are strong in a way that goes beyond physical strength. It can mean strong in face of trials, or simply that they get up no matter how many times they get knocked down. I am tired of seeing this too. That women can only be strong if they are a certain way. And i feel like Katniss in the books is a SFC but she has a lot of flaws, and being in her head, you see that she's not just a bada** character. she gets scared and she suffers from PTSD. she makes decisions that have huge negative impacts on others. yet she has agency she does what she wants because she decided to do it, and for no other reason.
I also think that portraying female characters as strong ONLY when they are physically strong is so limiting. I also find Egwene to be a real sfc because of her willingness to take her life into her own hands (im still only 2 books in). she wants to leave emmonds field and so she does. when bad things happen to her, you see how it affects her. she doesnt just brush it off and go after her enemies to brutally murder them. seeing her struggle doesnt make her less strong. on the contrary.
Anyways, i loved this and i agree with you =) (what a long winded way to say that)
Yesss that’s what people don’t seem to get about Katniss. She was strong because she HAD to be but it was also killing her inside. Talk about compelling!
Ahsoka gives the actual SFC vibes :3
I never noticed it while reading until the author mentioned it, but in the Theft of Swords series the main female lead never picks up a sword. She uses wits or magic or a combination of both to save the day in every situation she finds herself in, well, unless she's being saved by the main characters, that is. I also love how she starts off only being able to boil water and make people sneeze and manages to use those spells to her advantage. Another character starts off after a series of unfortunate events just wanting to die and in a state of shock mixed with a deep depression and still manages to be a strong awesome badass without being a "strong female character."
You've hit the nail on the head when it comes to the writing of "strong female characters."
Great video
New to the channel via Chatting with Nutts, really enjoyed this!
Oh yay! Thanks for joining in!
I agree with so much of what you said. I wish we had more SFC that acted more like women. So many times people only consider a female character to be strong if they act like men ie. Physically strong, unemotional and seeking power.
Quick rant - I had a big problem with this in the WOT show. Disclaimer - I haven’t read the books. I REALLY disliked Egwene all the way through but one of the reasons I really didnt like her is because of how she treated Rand in the beginning. It’s quite clear from episode 1 that they have a serious, adult relationship and, at least Rand, is seriously thinking of proposing and getting married soon. It’s very understandable then that Rand would be disappointed that she decided to chose power over love and family. When did seeking power become the be all, end all?
Also, an example of this done pretty well was Wanda from WandaVision. Yes, she’s a superhero and she’s probably the strongest avenger right now but the whole show was about her being a mom!! How great! Taking an essentially female characteristic and making an entire show about it! I thought it was phenomenal. Not that every female character has be like her but it’s so rare that we get women characters that actually feel like women.
Yes yes about Egwene - she’s not like that in the books and it weakened her, not strengthened her (in the show).
I loved Wanda in Wanda vision too. I just wish they had the guts to deal with her grief in the final episode instead of turning it back into a super hero story. Such a cool look at motherhood and grief!
@@Bookborn oh yes I totally agree about the show WandaVision. It didn’t quite stick the landing.
Oh, I agree with ALL OF THIS. Loved the Wonder Woman/Captain Marvel comparison. My only disappointment with WW was actually the ending ,where I felt like she devolved into just a fighter and lost some of what I'd found interesting in her earlier. But yes, Captain Marvel always did feel thin to me, and I think you nailed why.
I guess they had to give her a superhero moment, but I did prefer the moment when she was crossing no-mans land. WHAT A SCENE
I really liked this and I totally agree!! I’ve had conversations with friends about “SFC”s before and sometimes it almost feels like studios or publishers saying “See?? We made a strong woman!”, but for me personally it’s more about characters who have depth and arcs. I’m happy to see strong women or women who are just barely getting by as long as they feel real and are interesting!! Big manly men with hearts of gold and tragic back stories, non-binary characters with hopes, dreams, and failures - characters who feel like people first and foremost and who I’ll grow to love or hate!
If I think about this topic, at a high level I'd imagine the issue likely stems from tropes similar to 'damsel in distress' where the female character is weak and cannot do anything themselves, essentially the opposite of all the qualities you list initially. It probably comes out of societal norms that have existed for generations and when you describe the "actual" SFC, it makes more sense, especially in today's day and age. We have and are experiencing the advent and/or evolution of gender equality in all parts of society which in turn will then permeate into art whether it be written or otherwise. I love your take, and I hope it in some way can be downloaded into my brain so that I can help my 4yr old daughter embody these traits as she grows. Thank you!
Some really interesting points here and I agree with all of them. I often look back to Captain Marvel since I rather enjoy her comic book counterpart and try think about why I prefer Wonder Woman so much, and lately it just struck me that she’s a big bully in her movie. Wonder Woman is all about bringing out the best in people. I get that they were probably going for a more Tony Stark, quippy/funny/haughty character with her, but the writing and acting just weren’t up to snuff if that were the case. And even then, Tony Stark spends a good deal of his movies as an underdog without his suit, having to use his brain to solve problems instead of strength. Wonder Woman solves problems with kindness and empathy (which sounds silly saying it here but just works in her movie perfectly). And captain marvel gets what she wants through power and intimidation and humiliation…I mean just look at her final fight with the main guy. She spends the last few minutes of it humiliating the guy. She’s just a big bully. The movie version of her works a lot better as a villain in my opinion.
I think captain marvel as a tony stark type character could’ve worked especially since we rarely seek women in that kind of role - but the problems, like you stated, is that because she inherently has super powers she doesn’t get into the same problems as Tony, AND Tony is present as often not the best person while they were trying to present Carol as completely perfect.
@@Bookborn Another difference in the Mary Sue SFC's and the OTHERS...
In Iron Man, Tony Stark sometimes "runs over" Pepper Potts...
But right off the bat, WE know (perhaps even better than he, at least initially) that he NEEDS her.
The Mary Sues... usually "don't need no stinking man". The writers seem to REALLY resist having any of their SFC's being shown to be helped, in almost ANY way, by ANY man.
It's like they actually BELIEVE that old line about "women need men like fish need bicycles".
Thank you for the thoughtful breakdown.
I've kind of second guessed myself, because I know I've been used to certain types of stories most of my life, and because I'm male.
It is kind of like on Supergirl, I liked the message, but I felt like it was beat over the viewer's head. That just feels like lazy writing.
And speaking of lazy writing, I felt like in the WoT show it wasn't even a consistent message, because they leaned in to fridging Perrin's wife.
As for the space flying scene, I asked one of my friends to imagine Luke doing that, and their response was "oooooh, that would look stupid, I see". Then I asked how they would felt for Luke to die in that scene and they said "I'd hate to see him go, but if they couldn't have Mark Hamill play him anymore, it would at least be pretty epic".
I don't know. I don't mind something having a message, as long as the story stands on its own (and the message is positive)
The other problem is that having a critical take is really hard, because you get drowned out on one side by the people who hate "woke culture" (and those people tend to be hateful and use threats of violence), and that seems to polarize the other side to defend every hill, and view anyone saying "yeah but it could have been improved" as having an agenda opposed to the message... and then anyone who questions anything is lumped in with the hateful crowd.
(Getting serious and not just talking about fiction anymore) There are hills to die on when it comes to polarization. But if *every* hill becomes a hill that must be defended at all cost, then all it does is draw the lines of battle with more people on the other side.
Yes. Yes yes to everything you’ve said.
I think WoT is such a good recent example of how the idea of the SFC can fail so hard when you aren’t actually trying to make good characters but rather jsut strong. It means women without agency, it means randomly fridging a character and it realizing it apparently, and diminishing important male storylines with no benefit.
And man yes about the hills to die on. Why does everything have to be so polarized and intense? We are talking about books and tv 😭
I LOVE star wars, and Leia are one of the first female characters I grew with (I saw the movies with my dad).
I totally agree with you on the "a strong female character is just a strong character".
Just one tiny remark: Leia is *also* a general. That's how the pilots refer to her as "general".
So I didn't grew up to see my princess turns into generals, I grew up with a character who can be BOTH. And also, flawed in her own way, and strong in her own way (she's not "also a Jedi", she has strength others don't).
Yes that’s what I keep telling everyone like she’s a general in originals! She’s just more known by the monicker Princess but like that is just a title… it doesn’t mean anything. It’s the perfect example of how todya a lot of creators use shallow things as if they replace the substantial.
I'll pile on with all of the concurrences. First and foremost, male or female, make their characters with depth and flaws so they are interesting. Can't wait to hear you expound on the Mary Sue issue. Also, timely video given the recent release of an image of an armored and armed Galadriel from the new Amazon LOTR series (Vanity Fair had it, I saw it online). There's a reason this is the first impression they want to give, right? Strong female character needs sword and to be martial. I wonder if there was another option. Seems like there was a movie treatment that did a pretty fair job....
Oh boy. Well We'll see about the show. Galadriel was a boss for other reasons besides marshal. But...here we go. I'll try to reserve judgement until I see the show 🤣
To a lot of girls, I think that typical strong female character is often not very relatable. When all they are is tough, witty, and independent, most girls in their teens are still learning how to be those things. Another example of a heroine not like that is Sansa Stark. She was a silly girl to start with and very feminine but grew into a stoic badass and the readers/viewers went through that experience with her, making it that much more impactful and relatable. I’m kinda blabbing, but I have thought about this a lot and you laid it out perfectly!
Yes yes I completely agree! Hermione captivated so many young women because she was super intelligent but also sometimes made really dumb choices and got emotional and lonely and what have you. Girls need role models who show them it’s ok to not be strong all the time, too.
couldn't agree more. in the end, it's about the story, and I think if making a great story isn't the primary goal, but rather the primary goal of a character is to "make another Katniss" or "show how strongly strong she is," then the arrow will fall short of the mark
Yes yes yes. EXACTLY. If you're goal is to try and copy something else successful I feel like it just never works
Wonderful video. A New Hope is based on Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress, and the character who inspired Leia, Princess Yuki, is a fantastic female character. She is a leader who puts herself in danger to help others. During their journey, she encounters one of her subjects (a young woman) who was sold into slavery. She goes out of her way to free her and lets her join their party. It's amazing to me that sometimes female characters in older films are written much better and are more empowering than the ones we have nowadays.
Yeah, pretty much agree with all of it. I mean.. Just drop the F part out of SFC tbh and the S while we're at it really... I shouldn't matter if the MC is male or female, or strong... As long as it's a well written, fully fleshed out 'Character' with strengths and weaknesses. Heck. even if the character only has weaknesses, but through those weaknesses drives forward the plot and has a cool arc to overcome obstacles in spite of said weaknesses and in turn grows stronger in some way or capacity. That coud still be an amazing and interesting read/watch.
I'm now actually genuinely curious about whether you've seen arcane, and if so, wat you think of the lore, the storylines and the characters. I'd love to hear your take on caitlynn, vi and powder, especially in light of this whole SFC debate/thing.
Arcane is on my list! I've heard it's so so good. But I really want to read some of the books first!
Good video and I agree. It's something that I've tried to explain to people when the Ghostbusters 2016 film came out and people tried to say it was better at female empowerment over the likes of the female characters from the original GB films. People sleeping on Janine and Dana's strengths despite being supporting characters compared to the dumbing down of everyone to try and make those new GBs seem more competent.
All that aside I am getting rather sick of this trope that in order to be "strong" you need to only take on traditional masculine qualities rather than playing into the strengths of traditional feminine qualities.
Yes and also just redoing movies and inserting female characters is boring and lazy lol like we can come up with new stories yeah
I agree so hard. I want to see nuanced characters display a wide variety of strengths. But the biggest problem I see with the SFC stereotype is that there is only room for one of them in your book/movie. If you've got one woman out there showing she's better than all the guys, and then you insert a second, both just start to look ordinary and it gets worse the more you add.
I was actually thinking of Merida from Brave when you were talking about Captain Marvel. I loved both the character and movie, but they did raise her up by shoving everyone else down. A lot of it was for comedic effect, and it worked, but meanwhile her mother was a truly strong character throughout, with flaws and biases and agency, and she grew through the unfolding story.
Huh, I never thought of Merida that way because she did at least have personally and an arc of her own, but you’re right now that I think about it that all the men are shown as buffoons to emphasize her competence. Gee, thanks for ruining the movie for me!
I've realized recently that I love female characters who are powerful, but not warriors. So many times powerful characters are also warriors. I love good warrior characters, and I LOVE the Wonder Woman movie you referenced. But I also don't see myself as the warrior type, and don't identify as much with warrior characters.
I don't know much about Galadriel's back story, outside of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, (I think she might have lead battles???) but I was telling my husband recently, that I think I'm so drawn to her in the main trilogy because of her powerfulness without being a warrior.
I also because interested in Wheel of Time from watching a video on the magic system that said the Aes Sedai were powerful magic users, but had male body guards to protect them in battle. I'm not that far into the first book, and I don't know how they will hold up as powerful but not necessarily warriors. But it is something I'm actively looking for more now
Same, I haven't read The Silmarillion yet, but in LOTR Galadriel is the perfect example of a hugely strong character who is not a warrior. Like...she's THE QUEEN.
This was a thoughtful and well put together thesis. In fact, it broadened my understanding by suggesting traits that are more broad. Previously, i would assert traits like nurturing and still make sure they had weaknesses. Ultimately, providing the traits of "simply strong characters" provides more consistent outcomes.
Oh, and Wonder Woman contrasted with Captain Marvel is an example i use as well.
Me when I see your list of "The actual SFC" traits:
"Oh so you are saying they should just be great characters that follow great character logic."
Exactly.
Then you just spell it out for those who didn't pick up on the implications lol.
LOL. Yeah like it's really just bad writing - doesn't even have to be with only female characters, but it seems with female characters bad writing gets packaged "as good" and "strong" more than with male characters.
I agree completely. And regarding Leia, to my mind it felt worse because of Luke. Maybe it's just me, but Luke sneaking into his sleeping nephew's room in the dead of night, then peeking through his head, was disrespectful to the character. It seems to me like it was done specifically to make the SFC of that movie look morally superior, and make Leia look all the more impressive in how she continues to fight when Han and Luke have fled. He wanted to confront Ben? Why not ask him to go on a walk? A private meal? If it had to be done at that time, why not knock at his door? Call him to let him know they needed to talk *now*...? And why oh why did have to lie and make himself look even less sympathetic in our eyes? Man sneaking into sleeping nephew's room does have certain connotations after all.
I feel like they wanted to make Rey something truly magnificent. And Episode 7 did a good job of starting that, it made millions of us wonder "Why is she so strong? How is she picking all this up at this pace?" We speculated, and there were good theories out there-like inheriting memories through touch. But in 8 they took the man everyone expected to be her mentor and turned him into the one who actually needed lessons.
Turning Luke into a perv certainly was one way to go, but that doesn't mean it was the right way. Mediocre writer as I am, I can still think of several ways to make Rey look cool without assassinating Luke's character. I wanted to love Rey, I really did. But I couldn't. And she has single-handedly colored my opinion on any character introduced as an SFC.
(To be clear, I don't hate everything in TLJ. There are things in there I liked, chief among them the idea of Rey coming from nothing. Not having a legacy to live up to-or shake off-shouldn't be this revolutionary an idea)
And that's what the SFC is to me; someone who constantly puts down others--especially the men--in order to prove how cool she is.
Personally I don't even mind a character who is perfect in every way, if they're not an FU to any group of people.
I cannot speak about the character assassination that was done to especially Luke. I was so angry and it’s clear Mark Hamill was extremely bummed with the way they took his character. I can’t imagine Lucas supported it. Ugh.
@@Bookborn I'm sorry for the rant. This shouldn't have had to be about a male character 😒
I love your analysis on this. I think more writers and show runners need to play DND... and the first thing the should do is go to the big book of flaws and start building their character from that. Flaws are what make us and while it's fun to play (write) the hero character. If you build them up from their flaws they become more real.
Nynaeve is hands down my favorite female character because of her flaws. Actually I think she is really the main character of the wheel of time.
Wow! You are always so good at expressing your opinions and I love it! So good and completely agree with you!
100% yes!
I’ve been diving into many of these analyses for my own writing and you hit the nail on the head.
Last year’s series on the variant hero arcs on KM Weiland’s blog (Helping Writers Become Authors) puts a lot of this in perspective as a heroine’s full life cycle takes on the role represented by Persephone(young maiden)/ Demeter (queen)/Hecate(crone). To follow a protagonist’s cycle that is defined not as a man on a hero cycle, but navigating the world-- and coming to a balance of both the masculine and feminine-- becoming true unto one-self, but strong (Merida of Brave, and Mirabel of Encanto accomplished this with heads held high) -- Is a hallmark of the True SFC.
(As KM Weiland caveats, either gender can fit into the various arcs, and remain true to themselves. They are archetypes, not rules.) And studying and understanding exactly what you’re describing can benefit the writing of any character, regardless of their gender.
I’m always impressed by your ability to put these thoughts
into words.
Thank you.
I loved this video. The funny thing to me is that the "actual SFC" (which is spot on btw) is literally the exact same as a a good male character haha agency, weakness, talent, goals, etc. Great video!
I paused your video and typed that before you said basically the same thing haha
Same goes for a male character in WoT, one of the audience's favorites.... Heavily, HEAVILY flawed, but also always trying to do the right thing at the end; Mat.
What made them so loveable was that they had weaknesses that were identifyable, lack of skill with women, a bit of a scoundrel and in for fun...
Absolutely. Weaknesses make any character good! That’s the point!
A very thoughtful video! I've definitely noticed this trend in Hollywood for a long time. It definitely happens in books too, but through the years I've been able to find a wider variety of female characters in the sff genre in books.
I think that's the key - variety. Women are just people, and we should see them as all kinds of people. I've often noticed, particularly in the adult epic sff genre, a drastic improvement in an author's female characters when they write more of them. It forces an author to think about what makes the characters different besides their 'femaleness'.
YES such a good point. When you aren’t just writing a single character it forced you to really analyze them as people.
Bravissimo! 👏 A (female, self-described feminist) British reviewer on YT said a couple of years ago that her measure of a strong female character is whether you could just interchange the character with a male. If that's the case, the character is just a dude, with a woman cast to play him. Such strong characters as Leia, Ripley, and Sarah Connor (in the first couple of Terminators, anyway) are examples of great characters who are strong women. Gal Gadot said that when she was cast as Wonder Woman she insisted that WW not lose her femininity -- and the result was a great character, and a fine movie (WW 1984? Well...)
Nicely said!
Omg WW 1984 😭😭 literally such a horrible movie why did they do this to my poor baby
@@Bookborn It was pretty sad. The first movie was so good! They needed a real villain, y'know?
I recently read a piece in a magazine on film about the female anti-hero archetype being too tough, and intentionally spiteful to the detriment of its writing, and while I'm not going to argue that every depiction of a strong female character is good - I had lots of problems with Zetian from Iron Widow for lots of reasons - I find these discussions of the problems with strong female characters, or female characters who are anti-heroes to be an odd one.
While I do agree that defining women's agency in terms of what is considered a masculine form of strength is not a good way to engender "good representation" of women in pop culture I think it can be limiting to also disregard it. Some of my favorite well written female characters often exhibit strengths that range from emotional intelligence (Crazy Ex-Girlfriend), quiet persistence in the face of tyranny (The Handmaids Tale and the Testaments), or simply deep complexity that is irreducible (Edna Pontellier from the Awakening).
However, what always rubs me the wrong way about this argument is how it seems to be interested on a deeper level with a woman's likeability and agreeability as a character trait. I'm not accusing you of making that argument - you outlined the mary sue element more strongly and poor storytelling as a complicating factor; however whenever I see this argument that good female characters don't need to be intentionally demeaning, mean spirited, emotionally closed off, and hyper competent, I wonder why. Given that collectively, women who do display these traits in the real world are often worse off for being so (there are studies of women in the workplace who speak up being seen as less agreeable simply for speaking up), it reads often as a reflection of entrenched cultural beliefs about what women should be, rather than what they are.
An interesting video, and something to chew on. Thank you, my friend.
Yes I see where you are coming from! I actually don’t mind dislikable female leads - like you said, women are often acceptable only if within a narrow mold - but I feel like when every single new female character I see is this way, it gets old. My favorite part of Carol honestly was her attitude lol like she didn’t give an eff about anyone. But that doesn’t mean I want her to never fail and be perfect - her only problem were the people around her, and that makes for a less compelling story.
@@Bookborn Perfectly fair. Weak storytelling is weak storytelling. I haven't seen Captain Marvel, so I'm in no position to judge its merits or lack thereof. But I've been tracking this recent discussion since it seems to be coming up more frequently of late.
All the best!
I love your points on this. I can't even explain how on point this video is!
Edit: I screen-shotted the actual fsc because it's that on point
Thank you 😂😂🥰
You definitely do your research and produce such great content! You are CRAZY smart!
I agree 100% with what you said. A great example of an SFC to me is Ripley from the first 2 alien movies, she is written so well and is universally loved.
As somebody who grew up with strong (and yes, flawed) female role models I started reading fiction FILLED with strong (again, flawed) women and it has ALWAYS annoyed me how the pandering to the "grrl pwr" crowd has been considered enough, but also that criticism of the trend is considered sexist.
My first crush was a character in a book (Mildred Hubble, the worst witch. Not even embarrassed by the fact, I think I was 6 at the time. My NEXT crush was Wednesday Addams)
From there I fell in love with so many wonderful, strong female characters. I "borrowed" Pratchett's Guards Guards from my brother when I was maybe 9 and become a huge fan instantly, and my school librarian introduced me to Anne McCaffrey when I was maybe 11 so some of my earliest reads had amazing women (from Granny Weatherwax, Nanny Ogg and Susan Sto-Helit to Lessa, Brekke, Menolly, Sharra. Lessa in particular is a favourite. Extremely strong, proud, brave and intelligent... but also often arrogant, overbearing and demanding)
When I see Mary Sue or strictly non-feminine women as the only offers (rather than simply part of the spectrum, bc there's nothing *strictly* wrong with either) I get cross. It's robbing the audience of better stories and better characters to please a TINY fraction of people that will never be pleased.
And on Leia. She was unironically and intentionally the most competent protagonist of the first movie and arguably the whole trilogy.
But instead of diminishing the men by making her do everything, she was put into shit situations, presented with flaws AND her sharp tongue had OBVIOUS cause (she wasn't JUST a spoiled princess)
Maybe they weren't "brave enough" to make her into a bigger protagonist "bc female heroes don't sell" or whatever (something which I'm not sure has ever been true) but I think her *character* would have been diminished for it.
Yes yes yes. Love all the ones you listed - especially Pratchett’s witches and of course the legend McAffrey -
I’m planning on doing a video about how it’s perceived women heroes don’t sell but is it true? It’ll be a while because I need stats but I agree - I think it’s a perception that’s just not accurate
I did not expect to hear Kaladin's name in a video about strong female character. He's the best!
I really liked your list of traits for a strong character...
I'd say that "character arc" is one of the most important... and typically requires GROWTH of some sort... growth acquired by EFFORT on her part. She needs to WORK for it, not have it simply GIVEN to her... and SOME of that effort needs to be SHOWN.
Contrast Spiderman with Capt. Marvel or Rey.
Spidey gets bitten by a spider... which GIVES him his abilities... but THEN he is SHOWN developing/training those abilities.
Wonder Woman is BORN with her abilities... but the filmmakers SHOW her WORKING to train those abilities.
Luke Skywalker is "born" with his abilities... but we see him doing a little training with Ben on the Falcon... and then far more on Dagoba with Yoda.
Black Widow at least TELLS some of what she went through to gain her skills (in the movies prior to Black Widow).
Rey? Rey beats man who DID train for years (Ben Solo), right off the bat...
Of course, when the character starts off being perfect... there's nowhere to go but DOWN, so that generally ruins any possibility of improvement...
Without flaws or weaknesses (ie: Superman's kryptonite) there's no risk to the character, so no sense of concern about what is going to happen to them. (investment)
The FLAW is what enables (or propels) the character arc (development).
As always on point👌🏼. I never actually stopped to think about SFC as much but now… great way to pick my brain 😊
Thanks Haylla 🥰
Your camera work is top notch. Mind listing what gear you use?
This. All of this. Personally I feel like strong characters should be strong regardless of their gender, not despite it. And you have some great examples there. My personal fave is Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
I was hoping someone would mention Buffy. It's a shame that such a great character seems to have been forgotten as the years go by. I guess the show is dated in some ways and of course the creator being problematic doesn't help. But Buffy is a wonderful character and was ground-breaking at the time. It hurts seeing her get overlooked these days
Absolutely. Honestly the good character traits we discuss here apply to absolutely any gender - it’s just good character writing. And buffy for sure belongs on the list!
Hi Bookborn, I wasn't sure how to send this to you directly so I'm hoping you see this comment here.
I know your name is BOOK born, but I have a strong recommendation. Have you ever heard of the old Super Nintendo video game Chrono Trigger? It's a JRPG and it's fantastic! The story and music are SO good. I would totally watch you play that game through, edited for time, of course, with your reactions. (The battle sequences would not be very important.) There are some interesting twists in the story and I think even a book-born person can appreciate the quality of that story. There are some very dramatic moments. I think you could have a ton of fun playing that game, even if you generally don't like video games. It came out in the mid-90's and although it is now often recognized as one of the best games of all time, it still doesn't get the respect it deserves, IMHO. It's the kind of game that can make a grown man cry. Please look into it!
Thanks! :)
OOohhh ok! Do you know if it's available through the nintendo online store? (Like I've played a lot of the super nintendo games on the Switch that way). I'm down for a game even if I don't review it since I love video games :)
@@Bookborn Well, if you love video games then this is a must-play. They did a Playstation remake a few years later which is the same game with some anime cut scenes, but the SNES version is what I know and love, the anime scenes are a bit much IMHO. I looked it up, it seems that it has not yet been ported to the Switch. There is a version for Nintendo DS also, if you have the DS or 3DS then you can try that too.
You can play it through an emulator, which is how I like to do it. You can also get an SNES bluetooth rechargeable controller from Amazon or eBay to use the original controls. snes9x is a solid emulator and you can get the ROM (game file) from a site like wowroms dot com. Some RUclipsrs have done reaction play-throughs like I suggested, you could look those up if you want to see one.
Sometimes I put on a Chrono Trigger orchestrated playlist in the background while cleaning or working... It has such amazing music!
I will still want to know what you think if you play it, so please respond here if you don't make a video about it! =D
@@Bookborn And I just wanted to add, in relation to this video, that there are _several_ strong female characters in the game. At least 4, actually, and they are all great!
Gunnery Sergeant Torin Kerr in the SF books written by Tanya Huff. She is awesome.
PREACH! You say this so well!
Cirsea Lannister is an amazing SFC without the masculine traits, as well as Danearys. I love when its grounded in reality, and the SFC Brienne of Tarth even looked realistically as a women who could physically whoop some dudes. Margaery Tyrell was another SFC....most of the SFC in GOT using their feminity and intellect to be successful in their own right.
The best part about it? It wasn't shoved in your face "look I'm strong female choke and die on awesomeness"
They just were, in a natural sort of way.
Great video. I’m looking forward to the next one.
I think the SFC started out as the amazon trope (like red sonya or taarna from Heavy Metal) and just got rid of the bikini armor.
Im curretly reading The veil throne , and since seeing the title of the video i have but one character in mind Jia Matiza, she is becoming my favorite character in the series
.
You should do a list of you’re favorite SFC characters I love that you included Vin from Mistborn
Oh that would be a great video. There are so many good ones in fantasy books! I find shows/movies tend to be worse when it comes to the bad versions of the SFc
@@Bookborn You could do two lists or combine them, it would be interesting to see what characters in your opinion are great examples of SFC in media and how it can be good if done well.
Totally agree that making male characters look stupid don't make the women strong. Agelmar, LTT were both awesome male characters that could have allowed strong female characters to shine bouncing off of and interacting with them, but instead they were turned into one-dimensional caricatures of "toxic masculinity" to the extent that the Breaking of the frigging World was caused by MaLe ArRoGaNcE which really cheapened the whole narrative.
I mean idk if WoT really understood what they were doing in any of those scenes like I don’t get the end game there. What purpose was served by changing Agelmar in particular 😩
Yes! The SFC! I’m here for it! And on the DiD! (Comment just blipped out of existence) and the Mary Sue! Only spoiler thus far is for Stormlight character mention! Yes! Diana as Wonder Woman is exemplary role model of the ideal SFC who has flaws that are endearing, funny and uplifting of the character! However, Danvers as WRITTEN is flawed for the very reason that she is WRITTEN as character-perfect. You nailed your perspective on both! The writers were TELLING the story and near talking almost down to the audience rather than taking audience in...and folks need to understand that actors aren’t necessarily the WRITERS for their character or their film’s directors. Yes! Princess Leia is the badass rebel who galvanizes well ahead of not-yet Jedi Luke and still reluctant rogue pilot Han who flies solo...as with rey, who was written without agency and must be GIVEN powers without having striving and without agency or even accurate in-world training on basics like fighting stance with a saber... so WW is the ideal SFC, however mythic she is. I will say that the ongoing journey of Wanda Maximoff, the Scarlet Witch, is being done right! You got it all right! In fact , you need a part 2 for the other notable characters often compared to Danvers and Leia respectively and why they don’t work on several levels and aspects AS WRITTEN. Also, people: the actors aren’t the writers for their character. At least not the primary core writer/directors of their film characterizations. Great starter talk!
And subtext: “STRONG...for a Girl!” Sexist notions feeding into unquestioned assumptions that are inherently and through and through sexist. Overcompensation as a response is itself sexist since female protagonists MUST be GIVEN abilities because surely they cannot struggle and strive and earn it for themselves!
Yes yes so much you said I completely agree with. Talking down to the audience - it’s happening more and more and it’s so annoying. Trust the audience to understand complex stories. We can!
Oh and rabbit hole thought: the “primadonna” pejorative actually historically applies to major actors: Baldwin and the famous cut or keep beard kerfuffle during filming of The Edge survival movie. Or even one my favorites Russell Crowe in Gladiator hating the line “in this life or the next” but finally relenting (although I love everything about Gladiator film and cast). Gather round around this mound, ladies, in frame, and let’s take on this sexist patriarchy! Oh wait. Still not over how they write Captain Marvel Danvers though, man, or Luke in Disney’s deep pockets fanfic.
So glad of this video, honestly one thing of the many things i dislike from Modern Hollywood. I don't see why this type of character so appealing ( the bad version) as its just a bad idealisation of the struggles woman go through day to day. If anything, I think its worse for the current youth as gives such awful expectations. One thing that urks me the most is diminishing females femininity, because that's now considered " weakness". Anyways a nice examination of this topic.
I'm subscribing! Love your analysis on this kind of character type. The whole montage of Carol being discouraged all her life by men, is like pouring salt on a meal and then not stopping. Getting a point across by being so hard on the head eventually just ruins our taste for it.
YES such a good way to put it. It’s not that the concept was bad… it’s that hitting us over the head with it 80 times took any possible nuance or interest right out of the story
Very good! Without the female characters the books and movies would be very boring. Star Wars wouldn't have been the same without the Princess Lea character being so driven. Actually, it was the first time I had seen a female character like that back in 1977. Prior to that it seemed like we only saw the damsel in distress. I think another great example might be Eowyn from the Lord of the Rings. (Return of the King) That was a great scene when she puts on the armor and rides into battle with Meriadoc despite being told no by Theoden. Of course, Vin in the Mistborn trilogy had her special powers but at the same time was untrusting. Great Video.
Oh man Eowyn is one of my favorite, and I think I actually put her picture in my montage at the end but it was quick lol She is the PERFECT example of an SFC that's fallen out of fashion in hollywood. She's feminine, beloved by her people, and even has an unrequited romance - things that may seem "weak" to the hollywood ideal - yet she rides into battle, is a freaking MOFO and kills a Nazgul, AND takes compassion on Merry, who she views as being in the same marginalized position as herself. She's just the best. Sorry to rant about that 😅
My favorite SFCs are Jen Scott from Power Rangers:Time Force, Tayler and Allyssa Enllé from Power Rangers: Wild Fore, and many others both from other Power Rangers series and other franchises in general
This is a great explanation. But also, actually not every female character has to be strong! Eleanor in The Haunting of Hill House (the book) and the protagonist of Midsommer are examples of weak characters. They're mostly aimless and allow themselves to be led or pushed by others, but that doesn't mean they're badly written. It's understandable that since historically there's been a lack of strong female characters, readers and critics are asking for more of them, but still not every female character has to fit in even the wider definition of "strong".
Happy reading to you!! 🧜🏻♀️🦋📖
Ahhh, one of my favourite discussion topics… *grabs popcorn*
Loved this video! As a father of a young girl It might be the favorite one I've watched.
Good analysis. However I differ on two specific things: Vin was a character created in 2006 with obviously the release of The Final Empire. Long before the appearance of Katniss Everdeen (2008: publication year of The Hunger Games) and the stereotype of "the strong female character" became popular. In addition to that, Vin is a very complex character with many nuances so that you have to pigeonhole her into said archetype.
I actually think Vin is very complex :) I just think she fits the strong female archetype the most. Like Katniss, I think Vin fits her story and does have weaknesses!
It is quite odd that strong female characters are lacking any femininity.
I try to go for diversity of character types. I have multiple female characters in my stories and take advantage of that to provide some variety.
Like, some are traditionally feminine and conservative. They are the supportive types who think their husbands are in charge. Others are not that at all, instead locking horns with others (men) and taking control where they can.
You can get away with this when you have variety.
Understandable especially if a period piece but even then there are notables. Also there are those that fall into neither camp and just are. Not damsels nor Briennes of Tarth.
What a great example princess Leia was :)
I have a quick note to add. I think that if the writer wants the female character to seem strong, then she needs to bleed. You won't believe what I'ma say next, but the Witcher season 2 actually did this really well XD
Ikr?
I didn't see this coming either XDD
This notion comes from the recent Black Widow movie. She takes ALL THE HITS and doesn't lose a shade of makeup. She bleeds in the end when she breaks her own nose, but not when she survives multiple car crashes.
So um...
yea...
Women bleed too XD
Yeah totally agree! Making someone invincible isn’t true or strong - it’s stupid lol
Three thoughts:
1. A.P. Canavan used a phrase the other day (I’m fairly certain it was in the discussion of a Star Trek Discovery episode with Steven Erikson) that sums of the proliferation of Katniss-like “SFCs” (and Hollywood in general): “a superficial copying of the events without any understanding of what made it interesting to begin with.”
2. Other typical attributes of “SFCs”: young, hot, and being pursued by multiple suitors (or trying to catch the eye of one). Nothing wrong with any of those things, but why can’t we get actual SFCs who are older than 30, unattractive, and/or married with/without children?
3. Probably stupid question from someone who has not consumed any Star Wars media except via cultural osmosis: Shouldn’t it be “General Skywalker” (or whatever her surname is)? Do other generals go by their given name, instead of surname?
OK, 4. I really appreciated the review of Leia’s agency in the movies. None of that is transmitted through cultural osmosis. Slave bikini and sibling incest were literally the only things I could have associated with the character before this video. 😅
That quote in number one!! YES! That absolutely perfectly describes what has happened to Katniss copies.
Agreed about two as well, although this often plagues men too - apparently only hot, attractive and mostly white people get super powers 🤣
And finally I’m so glad I could help disabuse you of your Leia notions 💀💀💀 don’t judge her by her metal bikini! She kills the guy who does it to her herself!
My take is boring and not additive, but I agreed with everything you said. I think you nailed it 👍
Completely agree. The SFC is pretty much reduced in scope as a person. They have no depth or substance. I loved ypur wonderwoman example, because it showed a SFC that also embraces femininity without reducing the character, whereas a lot of SFC's act more like men. It's also patronising to make it seem that the only way you can be "strong" as a woman is to act like a man with masculine traits. It does not help either when they handicap the men around the SFC, because it just creates a narrative that the only way a woman can seem strong is if you diminish the men around them. But this is nothing new. In almost every advertisement, men are portrayed as incompetent childlike buffoons, while the women are portrayed as mature adults. It's very subtle in some cases, but in my opinion, it just diminishes the Female characters. Ripley in Alien was a good Character. In fact, the majority of the time, good female characters are when it isn't forced on you. Unfortunately, we seem to have come to a point where if women are portrayed as anything less than perfect, then it's called misogyny by some very vocal extremists.
Great topic, I would have liked to see some more case studies. I think Star Wars is a great example of how to do a strong female character well, both Leia and Rey.
Rey to me falls under a Mary Sue so while I love the idea of her character, I don’t love her execution as much as Leia. But Star Wars has always done a decently good job of having good characters period!
Rey definitely walks the Mary Sue line but I’d contest she stays on the right side of it. I may just be biased since I enjoyed Daisy Ridley’s portrayal of Rey so much.
@@RockMonsterDad Oh man I love Daisy Ridley too. She brought such great energy to the role and just felt like a jedi. I don't think it was her fault at all - I think it was messy scripting (I have a lot of problems with the sequels that have absolutely nothing to do with the actors, who I think did an excellent job).
I'll always be biased when comes to Leia. She was a SFC in a time where there weren't very many.
I agree. I also think the SFC is also kinda misogynistic bacause in order to be considered strong, she has to take on more stereotypically masculine traits. That's why i love Legally blonde so much. It goes completely against that idea.
The Take also has a good video about why Cinderella isn't just a damsel in distress who needs the prince to save her, but why she is actually a very strong woman.
Oh it absolutely is! It’s rooted in all of our internalized misogyny that feminine equals bad and weak and masculine is good and strong. And I can’t believe I left out Elle Woods - the ultimate strong female character!