Sorry for the weird audio cut out during the endgame scene. It got a copyright claim and RUclips cut out the sound. It was going to be too hard to upload so now we are stuck 😂
i was not expecting you to use my comment lol i thought you would use one a little less blunt. and yes you pronounced my name correctly no butchering there.
"I am a woman in engineering" Me, a male uncomfortable with the treatment of the two females in my class of forty in the physics department: "fair" This was 10 years ago, but it stuck out.
Thanks for using my comment, even though it was really A.P.’s. I don’t know if he was copying someone else or just spun the phrase on the spot. Do you plan to do any content on the Station Eleven adaptation?
I don't care that Louisa (Encanto) is a 'Disney princess', or a woman, or has a vastly different shape to me (I left my bodybuilding days long behind me). What got me hooked is it is a character I see myself in. I cried the first time I heard 'surface pressure' because i related to it so strongly (and the singer has a voice that can break diamond) , and since- I use the song to work out to, or if I need to let off emotional steam. And I think that is what Hollywood media has forgotten about their SFC characters, and in some cases their SMC ones too - to make them appeal to the innate HUMAN in us first. I think the rift in feminism/masculinity is toxic mostly because the further you delve into one side, the more alien the other side becomes, and in a healthy viewpoint we should ALL be able to see traits of ourselves in each other. I'm a typical bloke and do masculine dominated work, and for me to admire and look up to a Disney princess when I need to borrow strength from a hero is telling as to why Louisa from Encanto works. Disney may have landed her by accident, but I hope it's a trend that continues. But what do i know, i'm just a cowboy 🤠
Yes yes yes absolutely. A good character is relatable to ANYONE even if they don’t share traits. Among my favorite characters are men and women both, and some not like me at all and some are. What they have in common is being complex characters. I’m not surprised so many people relate to Louisa - she’s relatable and deep!
Well, from a guy perspective, a major issue I see is that Hollywood these days looks at it like a zero sum game. They elevate the female characters usually at the expense of the male characters, and many times beloved established male characters at that.
I recently rewatched Legally Blonde and enjoyed Elle so much as a character. I’m tired of Hollywood forcing traditionally masculine personalities onto female lead roles in the name of strength. Also, it feels like a lot of our female lead roles are deprived of supportive loving relationships. Both in the romantic and friendship department. Having and needing support in your life doesn’t make you weak it makes you real??? I hate watching these cold, isolated characters
Legally blonde is such an excellent movie all around and has aged incredibly well. Elle is about as feminine as it gets but she’s whip smart and a hard worker too. And as an added bonus, has female friendships instead of rivalries - and no matter how unrealistic it is, the fact that her and Vivian become friends is just as the best.
I have a issue with the whole system since the strong/complex female characters are need to be fighters. Can we get more variety someone like molly Weasley who is loving and motherly but she could be fierce. I want a female character whose strength is not fighting but her mind her desire to do what is right no matter the cost, someone who is doing the politics in a room who likes to get dressed.
Love to know what you think about the characters in Arcane. I think Arcane does a really good job of portraying many strong female characters. Especially when you go deeper than skin deep with the characters. For example, you could conclude that Vi's strength is her physical strength but more often than not her fists cause problems rather than resolve them. In reality her compassion and love for her sister and her loyalty to her friends could be seen as her true strength.
Thank you for the shout-out! You got my name right! My heart is full. One thing I would love to see: more fantasy novels and films in which fighting isn't seen is the ultimate solution to the conflict. I loved "Encanto" and Karen Lord's novel "Redemption in Indigo" because both female leads "save the day," but not with combat. Luisa, as far as I'm aware, is the first statuesque female character in a Disney film who is not a villain.
Fair enough point. 🙂 Although[ I think] the urge to see women save the day specifically _by_ combat, kinda does come from the long history of opposition to the idea of women ever even being capable of combat at all...or somehow not still being a proper woman if they are....rather than anyone ever so much opposing women in combat out of an opposition to combat as a solution in general. I mean, how many movies have there been where women are just grabbed and dragged around basically limp like ragdolls, never even making any mere _attempt_ to really fight back at all? 😅😅 😶🙃 I'm actually all for plotlines in which the solution isn't always combat, even with male leads, too. I just don't see why it should be specifically more proportionally not-the-solution for female leads than for male ones, especially within fantasy settings. (If that makes sense? ^^) I mean, there are just some situations in which non-combat solutions are not exactly an option, because non-combative solutions require either for the other side also acquiescing to non-combat resolutions or for people just rolling over and allowing the other side to do and get away with whatever they want. But, yes, there are a ton of other stories or situations possible other than those kinds of ones that probably should be explored just as much or more often too; on that, I certainly do agree. ^-^
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 I agree with you. I think what I'd like to see are more fantasy stories in general, regardless of the protagonists' gender, in which fighting isn't the ultimate solution. I love a good battle scene as much as anyone, but could we please have more epic fantasies that don't revolve around war?
I really liked the comparison you drew between Tony and Carol. They're actually pretty similar in how they are grating personalities. But the movie doesn't treat Tony like more than that usually and has plenty of other flaws. Maybe a part 3 you could discuss well done strong female characters and focus on some positive examples. Trying to recall the first video so sorry if it was already discussed. I only recently found you and binged a bunch of videos haha.
Game of Thrones, and specially the books, have many Complex Female Characters who act differently from each other. Sansa is the typical princess or highborn lady, but she's naïve and her character arc is learning to play the game, while still being very feminine. Arya is a tomboy with many traditional male characteristics, and she stands out because of it. She's not physically strong, so she has to compensate with her wit, and later on agillity and assassin skills, through a lot of training. Brienne is physically strong and very honourable, but she's insecure because of her looks and because her interests don't align with what's expected of her. Catylin and Cersei are mothers first, and both want to protect their children at all costs, but they do it in very different ways. Cersei is also much more power-hungry than Caytlin. And Daenerys is... well, very complex and difficult to describe. I understand why some people don't like her, but her journey from basically being sold as a sex slave to ruler and then tyrant is quite a ride, to say the least. I haven't even mentioned so many others, like Margeary, Olenna, Meera, Asha (Yara), Osha, Arianne and the Sand Snakes (in the books), etc. All of them are different and flawed in some ways, while being strong in others. GRRM wrote his story based in medieval Europe, and all these characters have to deal with misogyny basically every day of their lives.
Thank you for the shoutout, much appreciated! It has been a while since I've seen Captain Marvel, so I'd have to review, but I can see the Tony comparison making sense. Interestingly, part of Tony's arc is his overcoming his ego and need for control by listening to and engaging with others, and understanding the concept of Self-Sacrifice. In a sense, overcoming the masculine coded idea of bearing sole responsibility for everyone. Despite lots of study on this particular topic - if not specifically on the concept of "Strong Female Characters" I've never heard the Smurfette Principle, but it does tie-in nicely with the Bechdel Test. Whenever I think of films that do not pass it, I also struggle to think of the presence of other female characters. As always, thanks for sharing, and providing your insights. All the best
I really appreciate these two videos, as well as your routine inclusion of the feminine aspects of storytelling in your content. I don't see so much of this sort of exploration, and when I do it's not as nuanced as you tend to take it. As a storyteller, I've always been fascinated by the inclusion not just of female characters, but of gender dynamics. So no Smurfette Syndrome here. But I do admit that my portrayal has evolved (hey, I'm a dude). But I'm committed to continuing my evolution, so hearing about the topic from a fantasy fan as thoughtful as you helps. I've written two essays on the topic (as it applies to my work), and you've got me wondering if it's time for another. I've been lucky to have strong female role models for my work, including my wife (first and foremost), our moms, and our sisters. Indeed, one of my favorite character dynamics to explore is sisterhood. Sisters are so fascinating. They can savage one another one moment and fiercely defend one another the next. Not that that's never true of brothers, of course. But that's a "spirit trope" that always gets me cheering. Mothers and daughters are terrific fodder for seeking depth and nuance in a relationship, too. And complexity (yay, CFCs!) in those relationships only enhances the complexity in all the tangential relationships. It makes me wonder why so few fantasy storytellers seem to want to tap into this treasure trove. Thanks again! Keep up the good work.
I loved this video. I also whis there would be more varied bodytypes for female characters not just the skinny ones. I loved that about Cara Dune in the Mandalorian. (I won’t go into the controversy about the actress here.) But I really loved the character and tought she was very believable.
I love how you engage with the comment section, and this vid is just as great as its Part one. I don't have much to add, except thank you for bringing up the harm sexist view of masculinity/femininity causes to men as well as to women.
I agree with the Hero's Journey. A perfect example is Sarah Connor. She starts out as a damsel in distress who has to be saved by her white knight, but in the end, even though she fails to save her white knight, still keeps fighting.
My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic had a great example of a cast of diverse female characters forming friendships and exploring complex character arcs. I think it should be listed as a good opposite to the Smurfette principle. The only problem there is having only one male character in Spike.
I heard somewhere on RUclips that the script for Alien said that any character can be either gender. Well, that's one way of writing good female characters. Ripley is one of my favourite female heroes simply because she is one of my favourite movie heroes. Apparently she wasn't written as a female. She was written as a survivor, and it turned out great with Sigourney Weaver being cast in the role. Then Aliens added flavour to the character when she showed that maternal instinct toward Newt. Adding that femininity without taking away from her other characteristics worked very well for me. On the other issue of the different perception of men and women who "don't smile" I think Galadriel in Rings of Power is a good example. I have heard and read so much trash about her that I think is undeserved. Some say she is abrasive and mean. I say she is focused, unbending and stern. And I love it, and I love the way Morfydd Clarke portrays Galadriel! (For the record I should state that I don't think Rings of Power is particularly well written and I hate that they try to make Galadriel look strong by making the other fighters worthless. Any warrior elf that has practiced for hundreds or thousands of years should be formidable.) Galadriel is my favourite character in the show. What makes her stand out is her dedication to her cause and her intensity. I can totally see that with time and events she will become the Galadriel we know from The Fellowship of the Ring. She has a few thousand years to mellow and mature and I am interested to see the beginnings of that process. I hope that Amazon will hire better writers and showrunners to make it happen in a believable way. I mostly watch for Galadriel. The rest is kind of sub standard to me.
THANK YOU for talking about how dislikable female characters are being praised often. I tried to break down two characters from two very different shows who were both arrogant, egotiscal, and dislikable. For the woman I picked ROP Galadriel. She is introduced as a fearsome warrior on a vengeful quest to defeat Sauron. Throughout the show she is constantly condescending, manipulative, and overall unlikable. I wouldn't have minded (though as a tolkien fan it was painful to watch) but the show tried to make her the good guy. That's where I couldn't agree. Comparing her to Souji Tendo from Kabuto and he is the same. Self-centered, egotistical, less manipulative but he's dismissive and arrogant. The striking difference was, he was constantly called out for it. Often even. By his sister, his friends, random strangers. In very few instances was his attitude tolerated unless it was by those who didn't actually know him. That was when I realized it wasn't just a gender thing. We had our Iron mans. Our arrogant, self-centered pricks. But what we rarely had was an audience of seals cheering on his toxic behavior all through the movies. That's where I see a big problem. There's nothing wrong with an agressive, arrogant girl in a show. But I don't want to be forced into liking her. Just my thoughts. Edit: Also i guess Galadriel falls into the "masculinizing (not a word I know) feminine characters" pile so that was another issue I had but still it was the arrogance that had me rolling
Yes, yes YES. It's such an interesting phenomenon that dislikeable female characters are rewarded by those in the narrative while the same traits in male characters are not. I think dislikeable female characters are great, but the narrative needs to support it.
I'm surprised Rey didn't pop up in the conversation. The problem I have with Rey (and I believe others do too) is that she never has to earn her strength with the force, she can just do things. I remember Daisy Ridley made a point in how powerful it was for little girls to see a heroine wearing trousers. That's great, but why should I care about what she's wearing as a selling point for the character? Is she complex, does she have an arc, does she feel things? Rey is a little all over the place (even before Rise of Skywalker adding to the mess). Her initial arc of trying to find out who she is, only for her to be a nobody is a good idea, but because she's a nobody her strength in the force doesn't make much sense for a nobody to wield. Take Rand in WoT, he's a sheep hearder who thinks he's the son of a shepherd, only to find out that he isn't related to him at all, but finds out he's part of this grand prophecy that means he's either the saviour or destroyer of the world. But a key difference between Rand and Rey is that lineage played into Rand's importance and his power, (now the same could be said for Rey due to her being a Palpatine, but people took issue with Rey pre-Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker).
If you dislike Rey for this reason you should also dislike Anakin/Darth Vader. He is not related to anyone who was strong in the force. He was powerful because the force selected him. I would like to see the force as a self-balancing power. It needed to be balanced so it selected Anakin. I hoped they would do the same with Rey but they ruined it by bringing back the stupid force heredity thing.
@@mukeka1337 Not a good comparison to Annakin, he spent his most of his childhood being trained as a Jedi.. In the first movie his only power perse was being a human with faster than normal reflexes making him a podracer.. Also it's hinted that his immaculate conception may not have been immaculate and more manipulation of the force by Palpetine and his master.. At least in the books anyway.. Rey on the other hand was wielding the force like a pro defeating a sith apprentice in a lightsaber duel while only finding out the force existed that day..
@@dannicatzer305 Kylo Ren wasn't really trying to kill Rey which is why she was able to 'defeat' him, also he had a big hole in his side. Ren beat Finn in two seconds and left him for dead because he doesn't care about him. Then he tried to make Rey join him. Also I don't believe the force is something you can be trained in specifically. It's about humility and openeness, I think. Anakin, Luke, Leia were all able to use the force before they knew such a thing existed. In that sense Rey spent her entire life 'training' in the force, she had to survive alone in the desert since she was a child and that included a lot of fight training.
My biggest issue with Carol/Captain Marvel is that her story arc makes her oppressors/abusers *correct*. The movie starts with her being told to control her emotions because they make her weak. Her breakthrough moment at the climax has her reaching her ultimate power level by doing precisely that. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too: the bad guys are bad because they tell her to control her emotions, and she is a strong character because she's going to embrace her emotions, and then... her ultimate form from then on is a mega-stoic emotionless badass. What are we supposed to take away from that? That people who tell us truths we don't like are bad and deserve to be destroyed when we eventually realise they were right all along and trying to help us with tough love? What a petty character. Contrast this to my personal favourite character ever: Beatrice Kiddo from Kill Bill. In many ways her arc and character is defined and *empowered* by her emotions, which build on top of the brutally abusive training she pushed herself through to become the best of the best. She endures and overcomes real hardship, loss, and failure, and as a result is infinitely more badass than Carol (though tbh, almost every other character also). Critically, Beatrice Kiddo's story is a *woman's* story. It would be dramatically weaker and unrecognisable if you tried to make it about a man. Conversely, Carol's story is a man's story. Boy raised to control thoughts and feelings who then levels up when he finally gains that control is the cliché male arc (Luke Skywalker and all Jedi). So much so that the inversion of that (boy rejects control and embraces emotions) is a cliché male villain arc (Darth Vader and all Sith). Carol's gender is worse than irrelevant: it's token.
I know it's an old comment, but I have to say I deeply disagree about your take on Luke Skywalker here. The point of his arc is *precisely* that he wins by embracing his emotions and vulnerable side. He doesn't defeat the Emperor by becoming a stoic badass and killing Vader. He defeats the Emperor by throwing away his lightsaber and refusing to kill his father, believing he still has some human feelings in him. And he is proven correct. Yoda and Obi-Wan were trying to lead him down this path of becoming a detached, emotionless knight who must kill his father for the greater good, but he rejects it. Of course first he had to learn to not let his emotions rule his actions in "The Empire Strikes Back", but I'd argue in the end he becomes a very balanced person, in control of his emotions, but able to embrace them and make himself vulnerable when it's called for. His story is the exact opposite of the cliche you described.
It's jumping a bit out of your fantasy focus into sci-fi, but I thought that the Expanse did a really good job allowing female characters to be strong without being masculine. Yes, Bobbie and to a lesser extent Drummer could be described in that mold, but it also has Avasarala and Naomi. They're both incredibly strong but without being traditionally masculine or even fighters. And then all 4 of them have additional traits, issues, and motivations on top of that variety.
I think the best thing about The Expanse is that *every* character was lovable and hateable at times. They were all deeply complex, motivated, conflicted, distinct, and compelling. It's a masterclass in how to write *characters*, period.
The smurfette principle is weirdly similar to how Black Characters were treated in the 70s and 80s action movies. They were usually the only one amongst White Characters and usually died doing something heroic
Oh ABSOLUTELY. “The token black character” is still a problem, imo. It has the same thing as the smurfette principle that unless a show is “targeted towards the black community” then it’s mostly going to be white people.
2 years later, but I agree with the Ms. Marvel comment. I've watched countless movies with male protagonists where the guy was told he couldn't do something, or wasn't good at something, etc., and the protagonist uses that as inspiration later in life. Look at Captain America.
Johanna has it spot on. The problem isn't with the lack of strong characters, but with the lack of complex characters. Hollywood does have a bad tendency to create caricatures rather than characters. Female characters tend to suffer more for this treatment. It's easier for a writer to throw out a handful of character tropes and move on. Building complex characters (especially female, if the writer is a male) takes a lot of time and thought.
In response to the first comment (“smurfette principle,”/multiple SFC’s): this is REALLY REALLY HARD!!! It requires juggling multiple protagonists with their own goals, wants, needs, flaws, wounds and arcs all while tying coherently into a single main plot. I’ve been TRYING for awhile now.
It is definitely very difficult! But having SFC's don't always have to be main characters. I'll always defend LOTR: Eowyn and Galadriel are not seen a lot in the books but they are excellent characters.
@@Bookborn i think the smurfette worked in LOTR because Tolkien based his story of off actual history hence female warriors, adventurers, soldiers, etc. Would be rarer thus he portrayed it accurately. But in 2022, it's more likely to be half or 1/3
What bothers me the most about this shift to the "strong female character" is the sheer quantity being put out for consumption. I can suspend disbelief in 90 lb women kicking 220 pound Navy Seal ass occasionally, but when it has to happen in every single new production it has become a swipe left exercise just looking at the marketing picture on any entertainment choice on a streaming site. Women throughout time just do not physically kick mens collective asses, many videos out there when women challenge men in physical contests in real life. What is wrong to show the strengths of women how they historically win against men? Intelligence, guile, manipulation, and control through sex. Sometimes I wonder how the current entertainment programming will affect young boys growing up? Will they still adhere to a "never hit a woman" philosophy as my generation was raised? I am still incredulous on the opening scene of Wheel of Time episode 7. Though an incredibly shot fight scene and entertaining from a sheer I love martial art films perspective, does anyone think there has been even one woman throughout all of human space and time who was able to fight off a platoon of armored soldiers WHILE IN LABOR?!?
Okay... but a man shouldn't really be any less likely to hit a woman than they should be to hit a man. If a woman is going to act in a way that would get a man hit if a man acted that way, why shouldn't acting that way get a woman hit for it too? (It's not any more okay for a person to be an asshole toward someone else just because they're a less physically imposing or strong person than the one they're targeting-and if it's just the fact that it's not okay to hit someone physically smaller or less capable than you are, rather than the fact that women are somehow special snowflakes who must always look pretty and can't handle or withstand anything, then that should apply to men smaller or less capable than someone hitting them as well.) *No one* should be hitting *_anyone_* without _extremely_ good reason to do so; and *no one* should be giving anyone good reason to hit them. (Regardless of genders.) And that also doesn't mean you shouldn't still want to defend or protect anyone who gets hit when they don't deserve it[ or if it goes beyond even what they maybe did deserve], regardless of whether they can or can't also defend their own self. (Also, regardless of genders.) No one should use sex as a means of manipulation or control, unless they are a bad person. And women should not be relegated to their only possible strengths[ or means of defense] residing in being either evil/conniving bitches, or sex objects. If women want to train or strengthen themselves physically or combat-wise, instead of relying exclusively on intellect, they should be allowed to-just as men who don't actually want to train or strengthen themselves physically or combat-wise, shouldn't actually have to do so, either. Different people are allowed to be different people. (And being physically strong or a good fighter, also does not always automatically equate to reduced intelligence or lesser cunning at all, either.) Even in real-world combat, who wins[ or doesn't] isn't always exclusively about their brute strength alone, except in certain more-specific situations when it actually is. (Not every physical fight is a full-on bodily wrestling match.) And how closely matched[ or not] two people actually are in a fight realistically depends not just on their relative size or brute-strength compared to each other's, but also on their actual skill or proficiency at fighting to begin with, and sometimes even their reaction-time or action-speed or relative momentum and alertness or exhaustion compared to the other person's; and despite what is commonly shown on screen, not all men are actually drastically larger than all women, even without the woman being someone who is anything like the super big strong-musclewoman from Encanto in size or sheer mass of muscle. Men and women both come in a range of sizes, from smaller[ or weaker] to larger[ or stronger], and everything between. That being said, though, I do agree that not all things should always be depicted in exactly the same ways in fiction all of the time. Increasing representation of certain types of characters or storylines should not decrease representation of other types; it shouldn't always be an either/or kind of situation, where it can only ever be one thing or the other, it should be more of a blended-mix with some of each thing depicted sometimes and just about anything in-between depicted sometimes as well. But your protest specifically about the scene in Wheel of Time being unrealistic is kind of moot[ in my opinion], since WoT is a fantasy version of the world, which is full of humans of both genders who are not like anything throughout all of real-world history; not just that one particular woman which you reference here. (I mean, does any actual person that is anything like Loial or people who Channel anything like the Aes Sedai do actually exist in human history either?) And even within Wheel of Time, that woman wasn't exactly just any ordinary WoT woman either, although the TV series itself didn't really get into that specifically. Also..she didn't exactly fight them off completely, anyhow, did she? Since she got stabbed[ I do believe more than once] and probably died...and her enemy was left still standing afterward[ and far less-scathed than her] too, she just gave them a good run for their money before she became overwhelmed in the battle. Not to mention, she was also really only taking them on just one or two at a time, for the most part. But since, historically, women do not typically enter into battlefield combat whilst in labor...who knows what a highly-trained pregnant woman in labor in battle and pumping full of adrenaline would or wouldn't really be capable of doing or not. (But, again, it is a FANTASY setting; and even men, in fantasy settings, are quite often depicted doing things[ or fighting off extreme numbers of opponents] that no real-life man has ever been capable of doing too. So, I don't really see how that is an issue, just because in this particular fantasy case it is a woman. How many other times has a woman been shown doing anything like that, even in a fantasy setting? Why fuss about a singular exception, especially after claiming that you don't mind the occasional exception and that it's really just when it becomes more of a rule than an exception that you take issue with it supposedly.) And it can also be dangerous territory sometimes to tread specifically upon "historically" as a measure of what women are or aren't actually capable or incapable of doing anyhow, since _historically_ there are many things that women have been actively disallowed or prevented from doing which they would otherwise actually have been perfectly capable of, so who can really say at this point which things have not historically been seen because of that prevention or disallowance rather than specifically because it's an actual or literal impossibility for them. I mean, in reality, Joan of Arc was executed just because she wouldn't stop wearing pants after the war was over! Let's come back in another couple hundred years and then ask again what any woman has or hasn't ever [historically ]done. Maybe the answers will be the same as they are now, or maybe they'll actually differ, who knows; Only time will tell. 🙂 (But, purely hypothetical here, let's say maybe there was one woman who did fight off a whole armored platoon of men in the middle of the wilderness once and she was the only witness left standing; who exactly would have historically recorded that happening at all, and who exactly would have believed it actually happened without personally witnessing it even if they had heard of it later on, in which would it have ever actually been recorded historically even if it did ever actually happen? 🤔🤷♀️🤷♀️) But while we're on the subject...has there ever actually been one man who singlehandedly fought off an entire platoon of armored soldiers either? I'm curious, because I'm not an absolute expert on historical feats of combat.😊 I might have to do some research into that, myself. Lol
Couldn’t say anything better. I think that comment about endlessly copying a formula without recognizing what makes the original template so great in the first place is Hollywood’s problem in 50% of their atrocities.
I appreciate the comparison between Tony Stark and Carol. It rings similar to the Rey vs. Luke comparison in Star Wars. I've heard a lot of people say that not liking Rey is just internalized misogyny because she's just basically Luke, but I disagree. In A New Hope, Luke SUCKED at using the Force. We had an entire scene of him training and getting his butt kicked by an automated laser robot while Obi-wan lectured him about how to use the force. Everything he did on his own was shooting a blaster and making poor decisions up until he ONCE used the force to help him accomplish a task he had, by his own admission, been doing WITHOUT the force on his home planet for years. He then spent almost an entire movie training on how to use the force with Yoda. Rey, on the other hand, got captured in her first movie, told she had force sensitivity, and immediately used the force on a random guard to get him to let her go (a thing Luke didn't even know was possible when he met Obi-wan, and certainly couldn't have done). Then she held her own in a light saber duel with a trained Sith. If Luke had faced the things Rey did in her first movie, he'd have died early and quickly. That's not to say Rey didn't have interesting motivation and they couldn't have done some very interesting things with her, but they gave her WAY too much power and control of the force way too early, and it made her feel....less. You struggled with Luke, worried that he wasn't going to find a way out, mourned when Obi-wan sacrificed himself to save Luke. If they'd let us struggle with Rey in the way we struggled with Luke, we'd have loved her. It definitely felt to me like exactly the thing that one commenter said about Katniss-clones. They knew a powerful force sensitive person was popular, they knew they wanted a female character, they plugged Luke-like character traits into a female and forgot what made Luke work. We didn't love Luke for his power with the force, we loved him for his struggles.
Wow the comment about the hero's journey was 🤯 exactly what I think but in words I have never thought to say. Also, my wife and I just finished rewatching Better Call Saul (her first time) and I am just appalled that more people are not talking about Kim goddamn Wexler. My wife was immediately drawn to Kim (who was already my favorite character) and kept talking about how complex she is and how rare it is to see a female character like Kim who is both hyper competent but very flawed, very emotional but also very stoic, just extremely dynamic. Again, I "knew" all these things about Kim Wexler but hadn't put them into words until Jess and I started discussing together. Tl;dr- people need to watch Better Call Saul and learn a thing a two 🤔😂
+1 on Kim. Great character. For my money it's "Better" than Breaking Bad, which really was tough for me since I didn't feel like there was anyone to root for amongst that miserable lot. I think A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones) books do a good job of putting several diverse, complex female characters thru different types of heroic (or anti-heroic) journeys.
I honestly consider us lucky whenever Hollywood gives us complex male or female characters. The main reason movies are are made is not to advance society or give representation for any group but simply to make money. Since making a movie is such a huge financial risk most execs tend to play it safe and go with what has been proven to turn a profit in the past not with any original ideas. On a different note. I get people’s objection to the Mary Sue trope but it doesn’t bother me because I like when a female character kicks butt even when there is no good reason for it. Lastly, after watching quite a few of your videos this is the first time I hear you are an engineer. I like when women get involved in traditionally male roles so bonus points for that. As a society we’ll only really level up when there no longer is such a thing as a male or female role. Coming from a man who has become comfortable with emotion. 😉
About females and likeablity, but also what I consider to be a flawed strong female characters, Blair Waldorf is the perfect example of a character who is snarky and mean spirited. But the thing is even though Blair is many times right about a lot of things, she also gets a lot wrong and many is he arcs is having to deal with those situations. Hasty assumptions and conclusion, lack of patience or empathy. It always comes back to bite her on the b**t and settle things. Blair also shows a different sprectrum of emotions and the kinds of challenge she has to deal with also change a lot. Internal one, external ones, my girl gets it all. Shes doesn't completly change who she is, because I believe the show Gossip Girl tries to concey that some people just won't change, not really. They may even make the same mistakes again and that many times leads to a spiral and second guessing everything they believed they know and that's Blair. She is just a complete person. We as viewers get to peek behind the curtain and learn what makes her the way she is. Where her insecurities come from and why they stay with her and makes it so she can't actually change. Maybe cause her circunstances haven't changed, so it is doing a job there.
That comparison to Tony was perfect. It puts a lot of characters into perspective. Black Widow is a SFC, bordering on a CFC, and unlike Danvers, isn’t looking for approval. (And that's the issue with Danvers--The continual need to gain approval, either from beyond the fourth wall in the audience, or from within.) The same can definitely be said for the "Replacement 007" in the new James Bond. Their character was CRAVING approval.) Juxtapose this to the new Hawkeye show. Both Kate Bishop, and Yelena aren’t looking for approval. Well, actually you could argue that at the outset, Kate, as a "side-kick" was seeking Barton's approval as a mentor. But she came into her own when she realized that she didn't need his approval. She made her own decision to be a Hero, just as Barton had to decide the same for himself. They also made sure to show that Kate and Yelena can both take hard knocks, and dish them out, and they can both bleed. It humanized them, past the generally two-dimensionality of Natasha Romanov, nor the very two-dimensional Carol Danvers. Once again. Great commentary from you Bookborn. I really appreciate your POV.
Ahh seeking approval as a trait isn’t the problem. As I agree Zuko’s storyline is probably the most compelling in Avatar. The problem I have with Carol’s is that it feels all EXTERNAL rather than internal. It’s everyone else’s problem with not approving her. Whereas your example of Zuko - boy is his a completely internal struggle constantly. Idk if I’m explaining it correctly but they didn’t allow Carol to be weak in any way which ultimately hurt her. In some ways, Zuko is one of the most fragile people in Avatar
@@sxwriter8569 Yeah exactly. Needing approval is a solid and interesting trait. There is a point to be made in meta approval, when it feels the writers just write a scene to go to the audience: "See that? You should like them!
@@sxwriter8569 nothing wrong with seeking approval. Its a matter of how it is portrayed and and executed and resolved. To Bookborn's point, using Thor as a "See, I like her, so you need to approve of Danvers too" is a Writers' Room weakness. Danver's seeks approval, but never resolves it. But my point that Natasha and Yelena are not seeking approval--They are confident in themselves. That takes them to a different level of Self-Defined SCF/CFC. And my final point is that Kate Bishop accomplished the arc of Approval-that-is resolved. If you study the archetypical arcs of the Maiden and Queen and Crone, (See KM Weiland's Blog Helping Writers Become Authors) these three arcs resolve when the character (not defined by their gender but by the story arc they are going through) unites "that which they are" with "that which they are told-they-ought-to-be." When the unification is reached, the character reaches an apotheosis that is very different from the "Hero's Arc" of "If I beat the Dragon, I become a god." Mirabel of Encanto is a great example of this too. She must come to terms with both being "un-powered" and also being who she is. (She teaches both halves of this lesson to her two sisters, and teaches it to herself at the same time.)
@@Bookborn exactly. I don't disagree at all. The need for approval is in us all and makes for a fantastic character flaw. Zuko's story hits a turning point when he comes to terms with realizing he doesn't need his father's approval. And that his Uncle was his "true father" and approved of him all along.
(SW/LotR/Marvel Netflix/MCU spoilers incoming with some signposts of possible spoilers): I believe a part 3 can be made bouncing off comments below on Kate Bishop and Echo from the Dis+ Hawkeye miniseries extending to upcoming Jennifer Walters, power lawyer, who is She-Hulk! Physically literally imposing STRONG, rawr! And extend that to Marvel Netflix (soon to be Hulu) badass sociopath assassin Elektra Natchios in Daredevil, petite crime boss Madame Gao in same who actually intimidates physically imposing Kingpin/Wilson Fisk, or manipulative but hero-allied power attorney Jeri Hogarth played by Carrie Ann Moss (aka Trinity), and physically powered and actually literally STRONG Jessica Jones and the captains in Luke Cage. The fact that the biggest Marvel cinematic event showcased an improbable huddle wink at audience “fan service” at the most prominent level does a disservice to the individual badass characters of favorites like Scarlet Witch who went (SPOILERS) toe to toe with Thanos and (SPOILERS) made him pull out all stops as she was about to singlehandedly tear him apart and not to mention Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel coming in to singlehandedly wreck the enemy mothership and toe to toe with Thanos if he hadn’t popped out a power stone to wield against her! There’s “strong” and then there’s “power”, key difference but all good! They deserve their own showcasing beyond that moment that today, not to be all sociopolitical about it,, but at least two in that inorganic moment do a disservice to themselves as just people, I think...ugh. Anyway, hoping for a part 3 and a Bookshelf Tour, Bookborn!! I’ve been wondering since I will say, your library as is, is not so much a “book tube, dang you HAVE a LOT of showcased books color coordinated etc etc” library as it is a “those are some cool books I wanna check” library! A cool library! And the Cap shield and the DnD 📚 books I’m so curious about! Plus, actually adept and physically imposing Brienne of Tarth, as I think awesomely adapted in GoT from the GRRM A Song of Ice and Fire yet unfinished series novels: “I am no lady!” Finally bouncing off of the “I am no man” moment in LotR (I wished for a more screeching villain like in animated) and the inspired non-canonical moment of (FotR SPOILERS) Arwen facing off against most of the Nine: “if you want him, come and claim him!” My list of “SFC”! And finally, katana wielding Michonne from the Walking Dead who is more powerful and wiser as a person than her friend who almost shot one of their own tryna be tough. Also, the complexity of having a “Lady Macbeth” type character who influences the protagonist/antagonist for good or bad. Strength, power, influence. Writers, quit shoehorning actors, men and women, into having limited vocabulary and definition of “strong” resulting in chars like rey. Rey who? (As she side eyes the camera...). Will add leadership to traits of actual genuine SFC. M from the current and new completed Craig Bond Series. And the unique (Casino Royale SPOILERS) of the both damsel in distress/love interest/ “partner in crime” physically fought alongside Bond that one critical moment...
And America Chavez in upcoming Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness trailer...and Ayo, Okoye’s right hand, in Falcon and the Winter Soldier dealing with Bucky Barnes...villain wise, you have Hela. This has become an MCU thread...it’s the Captain now.
I watched both videos and you really hit it on the head. My wife and I also liked both Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman but thought Wonder Woman was a lot better and you gave great reasons why. It’s hard with Marvel because I’m a life long fan of the comics, I still read them, up to the movies. I totally get what you’re saying with the smurfette syndrome. It’s hard when you’re telling an origin story that’s trying to be at least loosely based on the comic version and you don’t want to change so much that it looks nothing like the comic. I feel they did that with Eternals. Changed so much I hated it. Avengers felt more in the spirit of the comic. Eventually the team added more members to the point where you had at least 3 females on the team like when they had Wanda, She Hulk, and Wasp. I get what you’re saying but at least with that franchise I wouldn’t have it any other way. I’m 50/50 on the Endgame scene. My wife felt the same way. Both loved and hated that scene. She and many other ladies I know have loved the Avengers movies in spite of having only Black Widow for 2 of those movies. Again I still get your point and they should just do different or create new teams with more women rather than try to change source material because usual when they change source material it feels forced and falls into all the issues you’ve mentioned here. But for the most part I agree 100%. I’m currently writing a fantasy novel with a party that has 3 men and 2 women and doing my best, by having those ladies inspired by women I know, 1 being my wife, to not fall into the traps you mentioned. Thanks for a great couple of videos on this subject
I mean I love Marvel! Admittedly I haven’t read the comments but I love the movies and I didn’t mean that criticism to say they should’ve changed it. Just that it was really surprising to me to see that out of 30 movies so few broke the smurfette principle. I still think we need male dominated stories as much as we need female dominated ones, tbh. But I think 4/30 movies is surprisingly few. We could’ve had a few more in there somewhere… even if it was original IPs. But yeah I get it. Comic fans want it like the comics and I won’t begrudge them that
I've enjoyed both videos on this discussion, and while I'm not going out of my way to be pedantic, when you brought up the issue of strength, I think it's worth mentioning that there are _many_ types of strength and body types ideal for each of them. Gymnasts, ballerinas and ice skaters are all incredibly strong to do what they do, and spend probably half of their waking hours working out and refining their routines. That's a lot of calories burned to fuel their bodies. (This is also why most of them retire in their early 30s, because their bodies physically cannot hold up to that level of abuse without joints breaking down.) But I also appreciate Louisa from _Encanto,_ she's a wonderful character. 🙂
I heard of a case a long time ago where a ballerina go threatened by a sailor in a cabin, who was armed with a knife and wanted to steal her jewellery, but she gave him a strong kick and it later killed him. I'd say someone like Simone Biles is even stronger and probably could easily kill a man if she wanted, even with her arms.
The book I'm currently trying to write (help me god) has a man and woman lead. The woman is a scientist that helped the government in their schemes to take full control of the population by inserting a chip in their brains. She will eventually have a change of heart and help man-protag (man-protag was also a dirty person but let's stick with woman-protag) turn the situation around and * insert book things here *. She can't fight and need to use her head to get things done while man-protag is let's say an * apex predator * in his former line of work. They need to work as a team during the book and will develop a rather unique relationship (not love-oriented). I put a lot of time in her so she doesn't feel strong out of nowhere or * cheap strong * and woman-protag is currently the only thing I feel proud about for this book lmao. When you get to know her, you realize she's extremely strong but also very flawed and layered, just like man-protag. Both protags fail a lot before having a W and this was important to gage in this story. I guess we'll see if you ever read it one day lmao!
Another insightful look at a problematic situation. Thank you for continuing to look beyond the surface of what media is on offer. I'm about to add a new shelf to my 'goodreads' - Passed the Bechdel. Because why should I only be paying attention to this in movies?
Yeah the Bechdel is interesting because it does become slightly more difficult in books. For example, a book from a single perspective that happens to be male would be impossible to pass the test as everything is viewed from a single (male) perspective. But it’s always a good starting point
I actually liked that scene with Thor, he liked her attitude when he was trying to spook her. Like he saw the worthy warrior in her. I might be reading too much into it, but that's how I took it. Great video, I love these introspection topics.
Ugh, that 'Endgame' scene, the only glaring blemish in an otherwise pretty great film... but I digress. I never really thought that much about comparing Tony and Carol, but you make a really good point here! While not a film or a book, I always consider 'Avatar: The Last Airbender' as a high-point for writing female characters. There's just *one* episode that addresses sexism directly and feels a bit too on-the-nose for it. Otherwise, though, I think the series offers a good showcase of different women in different roles who are just as awesome and complex as their male counterparts.
Strong character (as in complex and well-written) can also be strong (as in badass). But Hollywood only knows one kind od badass, and that's the physically can kick your ass badass. There are so many other strenghts. One can be cunning and outsmart you, one can be compassionate and win people's support, one can can be learned and use technology to beat you... There are so many ways to be badass. I'm tired of only seeing physical strength, which I cannot relate to at all. And on thin bodies, too. My favorite female character from WoT? Verin. An absolute badass though she doesn't kick anyone's ass. GoT? Cersei, though I hate her guts. Stormlight? Navani! I can go on.
Another example of a work that gets strong and complex female characterization right and also presents an interesting twist on the meaning of "strong" is Violet Evergarden. In full disclosure, I've only seen the film version not the full TV anime series and I haven't read the light novel it's based on. *Mild spoiler alert* In Violet Evergarden, which is set in a fictionalized light-scifi version of Europe around WWI, the female protagonist is a former child/teenage-soldier. And she was good in that role: strong, swift, like a ninja-assassin, with an impressive set of combat and kill skills. However, the film makes it clear that these are things to be overcome, not celebrated as "strengths", and the story instead is centered around Violet's journey to overcome the traumas of her warrior past and learn "the meaning of 'I love you'". The film and Violet's character celebrates the softer but more powerful force of love (including self-worth) rather than the boom-boom-kapow-slit-throat action that characterizes more and more women characters in stuff out of hollywood. I was much more emotionally stirred in watching Violet's journey to liberation (understanding love) than watching Carol's journey to "liberation" (removing the limits off her physical power and going boom-boom-pow-pow on Jude Law).
6:59 Re: Captain Marvel, I've seen a good argument that the issue is that she starts off relatively complete as a character. So the constant flashbacks to the various sexism events, ring hollow as a challenge. She is blasting her commanding officer from the beginning. Nick Fury plays the sidekick clown next to her. She pretty much waltzes through the entire plot with little if any apparent self-doubt. And like one small change would have helped a lot: That limiter that they put on her..... it should have prevented her energy blast use completely and limited her power usage to some durability and enhanced strength maybe. And she should have almost agreed to having the limiter on because she was afraid of her own strength. She also ought to have started off afraid of her commanding officer and he should have been developed as someone who's a threat, at least to the un-empowered Carol. Then all the flashbacks full of doubt would have had meaning: they would represent the voices of doubt in her head. Then as the story progresses, she realizes she's the only one who can solve the story problems and finally puts her foot down, stands up to the AI and busts out of her limiter restraints and goes to town on them, finally blasting her commanding officer and flying off to do all the other awesome things.
Hmm. While I think complexity is an important aspect of characters in general, I think agency is another aspect which (when combined) makes them a strong character. Memorable and important are two other words we could use. The criticism of Disney princesses is rarely about their complexity, it's because the story happens TO them, and they're just carried along. Even though they are the focus, they aren't active, and they come across as weak characters.
I talk about agency a lot in my first video :) no word will completely cover what we all want, but I like the idea that strong has sort of been perverted to just mean physical strength while complex means someone has multiple storylines and that includes agency.
3:16 - My only issue with comments like this is that it tends to shoehorn what exactly is or isn't "feminine"[ and "masculine"] in the first place anyhow into a fairly narrow box. Which kind of goes into the point made at 7:11 too, honestly-about how people often have a harmful focus one what gals[ and guys] "should" or "shouldn't" 'be' rather than simply letting all people just be the people that they actually are. More specifically to your response to the comment at 7:11 than to that comment itself, however....I feel like it is, let's just say, not necessarily great to look down on stories about overcoming external factors. Rising up in spite of, or triumphing over, external odds-or disproving external misperceptions-can also be important or fun stories to tell or see explored as well. I don't feel like literally every character should always have to be somehow broken or conflicted on the inside...like, there shouldn't be anything wrong with some people or characters actually just legit having their stuff a bit more together on the inside than other people do(That's actually just as realistic..and even if it's not..fictional characters don't always need to be realistic, I think that's optional not mandatory[ especially in fantasy], they really need only to be consistently characterized in-line with their own fictional self). I don't think a character is always automatically any less dimensional or complex just because they aren't necessarily overcoming an internal conflict or internal obstacle; although, YES, we should still see things affecting them on an internal level or driving them from an internal place..not all people are affected internally by external factors by becoming conflicted, some people actually do just steel themselves up and double-down on however they already were, [for better or for worse ]depending on the exact circumstance. You can actually struggle internally, even without being conflicted[ or doubting yourself] specifically. And there are actually plenty of male hero journeys that are more about the physical journey than the internal one too. I think it's kind of just unfortunate timing that people are steering away from those more externally driven types of stories right now much like many people are turning away from fiction commonly in a way kind of having a lighter and/or borderline fairytale-esque quality about it in some ways even when set in the fictionalized real-world, and turning more towards more internally driven stories with a more realistic & or darker/heavier/grittier quality to it, even though externally-driven stories and stories with that lighter or fairytale-esque quality out there specifically with female leads are so incredibly behind the curve in the number of them that exist compared to the plethora of those that exist with male leads in them if we're being completely honest; so I can kind of see why some people may want to realize that kind of story, specifically with female leads, right now...even though other people are at the point where they're just looking for stories or characters that differ from that[ and for them it might not even be about whether they're male or female characters either]. I can't really comment on Captain Marvel specifically yet myself, I still haven't watched it yet, so I don't know if I do or don't personally agree that her depiction was a little shallow or not(but your point about excessive repetition possibly being too heavy-handed or superficial seems totally fair to me)..and it is certainly entirely possible they just tilted too hard into the superficial "SFC"/"girl-power" angle or whatever & such, since plenty of things do....but I do also kinda wonder if maybe they stressed so hard how she wasn't unlikable despite being snarky and assertive or whatever specifically because of the social perception that those traits are a negative thing[ which someone is somehow a bad person for possessing] especially in women? ((Especially since I vaguely recall there was some big social-media stink kicked up at one point about the actress not smiling enough in first-look pics that came out I think during filming.)) Like, maybe comparing her to Tony(who IS actually intended as kind of unlikable and/or a jerk in some ways at some times) is not an accurate or fair comparison, because maybe the whole point was to try and show that unlikable women aren't the only ones who can be assertive or snarky? And, not only that, also the fact that even a female person's assertiveness and/or snarkiness can in fact BE among the very things that is admirable or likable about her specifically as a person/character too? And, perhaps, also that being assertive or snarky is not actually something that's somehow either innately masculine nor inherently not-feminine either? Like, the scene with Thor specifically, I imagine might happen because Thor likes to appear super imposing or see who has the bigger flex to show[ one warrior to another]...but she holds her own and doesn't even flinch, which demonstrates a strength of character that Thor likely respects a great deal. Or, at least, that would probably be my thought about it. And maybe they didn't show the flash of her traumatic past and how not even her own family believed in her so often as they did because they didn't think the audience would understand it the first time, but maybe it was more just to try and show how constantly significant and influential that moment specifically was and still-is..to her, internally? Or something? Maybe it was meant to represent her own self-doubts or insecurities she needed to triumph over caused by that trauma and skepticism she faced, so young, and so close to home for her?..or perhaps represent her motivation to prove herself and never give up in spite of all that[? Rather than representing how literally every man has been sexist toward her?] I don't know. (I mean, obviously I can't say what I really think it was or not myself without actually seeing it, I'm just wondering if that was or wasn't an potential angle that you had exactly considered it through before or not-if that makes sense?🤔 🤷♀️idk) I'll have to pay attention to what I think or not when I do watch it, because interestingly enough I was planning on watching it sometime in the near-ish future; so maybe I'll come back here after I do, if it doesn't take me too long to get to it, if I have any more or different thoughts on it after actually seeing it. I don't really have a problem with someone who doesn't look physically ripped still being portrayed as physically super-strong, at least not IF there is an in-canon reason why they are un-ordinarily stronger than an equivalently sized or muscled normal-human is, even without them being super-ripped by comparison. But even amongst real-word humans of same or similar size, one person can have drastically different strength levels than the other, although yes of course someone who is totally ripped will almost definitely outmatch someone who is less ripped. But combat isn't always down exclusively to brute-strength or brute-force alone, training and skill also plays a factor, sometimes where and how you hit[ or with what exactly] or how fast you strike matters as much or more than whether or not the other person is physically stronger than you; and it is literally possible sometimes to turn greater strength against itself, especially if you really know what you're doing more than they do. I dunno how well I'm explaining that, but hopefully the gist of what I mean gets across. I mean, combat isn't always like an arm-wrestling contest, except in specific situations where it actually is? If that makes any more sense. (And sometimes it's honestly just dumb-luck how the cards do or don't fall, and who wins or not.) It all depends, really, on a gazillion different factors-but especially when you start throwing in fantastical elements that wouldn't be encountered in reality. Lol
I was hoping so much when I first watched Captain Marvel that the emotions Yon-Rogg was suppressing in Carol's training in the early part of the film would end up being her super power. The writers had such a good character arch by making a perceived feminine "vulnerability" in to something amazing. She was still just as stoic throughout and it was disappointing as well as boring.
Does a character have to be complex to be strong? That doesn't sound right to me. I can think of numerous examples of characters who are both strong and yet simple in their personalities and motivations at the same time.
my take: As long as the "simple" aspect of their persona is hyper-relatable, and makes sense, simple can be fine... To really love a character comes from being able to see parts of us within them, and vis versa.
For me personally, I think the best examples of using female characters in recent memory as far as superhero media goes is when all the girls got together to beat up stormfront on the boys, or even when Black widow and one of the wakandan female warriors defended Scarlet witch against that alien elf lady in Infinity war 😅
Female powerlifters tend to look “fat” by conventional standards and “bodybuilders” often look so “over muscled” it’s “gross” and “overdone” to the extreme. I think that’s why they’re not the model. Look at Kate Sandwina for an example of a woman who was extremely strong and yet “feminine” and yet society didn’t know what to do with her. Abbye “Pudgy” Stockton melded the two ideals so much better and, as a result, was able to popularize the idea of women being strong and muscular
The Smurfette principle. I like the term. I think I know of a few rock bands that use this principal. Do you think female authors actually write strong female characters? I read the Clan of the Cave Bear series written by Jean M Auel, I think the main character Ayla was probably a good example. She introduces the concept that it was a woman who domesticated the dog and rode the first horse. Most of the Clans in the series were matriarchal, as well. I guess my point is that it was from a female author perspective. Great follow up video.
In my own writing, everytime I create a new male character I think: Why is this character male couldn’t this be a female character. I try to have as many female as male characters. And I totally agree as soon as there are many female characters there is a greater variety in character traits and types of relationships that makes the stories so much better.
The biggest difference between Tony and Carol is the internal struggle. There is nothing to be invested in with Bree Larson's portrayal of Capitan Marvel. She starts out God-Mode and ends God-Mode without anything to learn or overcome.
A bit of a tangent about Carol and Tony. Sorry, haha, I was a little triggered. Cap Marvel is a problem XD I like the idea of comparing Carol and Tony in the spirit of "women speaking up" I def agree that there is a bias there. I can imagine people getting more annoyed by a woman, Carol or otherwise, saying: "Hey, can you please sort your mask?" than if a man, Tony or not, had said that. HOWEVER We have to account for the whole story. You've mentioned that the audience is told to like Carol and not necessarily to like Tony. That's true and important. I just want to stress that their actions speak louder, here be the examples: Tony realizes his work led to death of innocents - he feels guilty, he wants to make amends, and he's very sad as he has to do those things, because it's a sad thing to do. His first action scene as Iron Man he barely speaks, u can feel the guilt in his pose too. Carol realizes her work led to death of innocents - she... um... yells in joy like a kid as she kills hundreds of people who used to be her allies until yesterday. she... yells... in joy... also she robbed an innocent biker of his bike and jacket just because he told her to smile. I suppose it can come off as mild harassment, but still, not an excuse to steal someone's ride and clothes. Now, Tony... he does questionable things too. He has strippers on his plane, serial one night stands, he's a shit friend, god complex, etc. But it's really important to remember that those things are small when compared to killing. And they are VERY small when compared to enjoying killing. That's REALLY messed up. If Tony went butchering everybody in the company who betrayed him, like, killed them, and yelled in joy while doing so... well, you know how this sentence ends haha Back to the first point to conclude Yea, the issue of "women speaking up" really is a problem. No one is a saint in this. BUT In the context of these films, and in Hollywood in general, many female characters try to get away with doing some very awful stuff, and then tryin to play like "hey, he did it too." Like Carol can say about Tony "hey, he's pretentious too, why don't you hate him like you hate me?" and the answer would be - Context. Tony's pretentious, objectifying, bad friend, but he's not a cold blooded killer who takes pleasure in massacre. And he doesn't hurt people just because they speak to him in a way that rubbed him off the wrong way. Carol did those things. And I argue that the dissonance of being told to like her as she does those things makes her worse than shallow - just plain badly written.
I am male from Central Europe, so my perspective could be a little different (as superhero is not my cup of tea, I saw maybe two Marvel films in my entire life), but so many times I saw/read/listened stories were most female characters belonged only to 3 categories: warrior, lover or mother. Of course any women over 40 can be only in the 3rd group and most “space marines/warriors” were skinny supermodels. That’s just poor writing and very boring. I don’t know if this was just lack of imagination from (mostly male) writers or producers/publishers thought that this was what audience/readers want. One of my way to evaluate male writer is how he writes female characters, is there any character who isn’t warrior, lover or mother (I assume that female writers know how to write non-stereotypical female characters by definition), of course there is nothing wrong with including warriors, lovers and mothers, but when there are only characters from these 3 categories, unless they are written especially well, I am usually disappointed. From recent examples of TV series that do not follow above pattern: The Expanse (TV series, I haven’t got opportunity to read all the books yet) main politician is female in her 60s (played by Iranian-American), marine character is female and you can see that actress have strength to believably play a soldier (played by Samoan New Zealand), female spaceship engineer who is mother that was forced to abandon her son (played by British of Dominica descent) or female space station commander/pirate/political leader (played by Indigenous from Canada) and much more. All these characters are unique and well written, all have agenda, weakness and strengths, acting is strong too. On the other hand there is animation “Arcane”, from six female characters with most screen time, five are warriors (last one is politician), but every one is unique and extremely well written. From fantasy books I like how George R.R. Martin writes his female characters in ASOIAF, there are many examples of great characters (Brienne, Sansa, Asha, Catelyn, Cersei, Dany, Alicent, Rhaenyra...). I am halfway through Wheel of Time, so far I mostly enjoyed chapters with female POVs more than male one’s (maybe except how Jordan describes romance). Not every female character in “Witcher” books is my favorite, but Yennefer or Ciri are extremly memorable. Last but not least, I really enjoy reading female characters written by Robert M. Wegner (Polish author, not yet translated to English), most of them are warriors, but like in a case of Arcane, every one is unique and it’s pure fun to follow their stories (female sword-master cut from her roots and family, female cavalry trooper with forbidden magic talent, teenage girl who thinks that she is a pawn, but in fact she is a major chess piece).
@@thirdspacemaker9141 I hope so. Andrzej Sapkowski isn’t the only writer who knows how to write fantasy/sf in Central Europe, there are many good writers and a few exceptional (Wegner is certainly one of them), I am sure that in the other parts of the World there are even more writers worth to be presented to wider audience by English translation.
I had a mom, 3 aunts and 2 grandmothers. All of them are authority figures. In fact it waa much more relaxed around the male half of my family then the female half. So now i just feel like hollywood is just assuming i have to be taught common sense with SFCs and SFCs have to be exagerated to make me see the point. Kinda like writing words very big and in crayon. Its offensive. The list of strong women in history is long. The list of strong women in the lives of most of your viewers is probably also long. I watch your videos because you have strong and interesting opinions. Hollywood just needs to stop with the lectures and concentrate on good story telling Also with the comment about aggresive women not being liked. I dont like aggresive or confrontational women because if I act the same to them I am seen as being threatening.
kinda wondering, if 5 years from now, with hollywood etc having this whole SFC fad, we'll then have comments like: omg, she's so cute for a female! xD Been reading a manhua recently wherein a male protagonist gets basically transportaed into a world with genders swapped. Females being the strong ones and males the weak ones. And I have to say, it's a pretty interesting thought experiment, and it's interesting to see how ridiculous it seems in how the MC is approached at times, simply because he's male. while IRL those things actually happen to women and then it's considered 'normal', or at least not as outlandish. Really makes one think about what it would really take to have society view all genders as equals... >.
We're seeing a similar thing going on with gay characters and representation right now. I was just talking with a friend of mine about how we're now just reactionary turned off by jammed in gay story lines and characters, who are basically just "SFCs with dicks".
@@Bookborn Yeah, I think the parallels to SFC are pretty good in the sense that a lot of similar treatments are happening. Although, at this point I'd find a gay Katniss-clone kind of refreshing. But similar to there not being an interest in giving SFCs real arcs in favor of compiling a collection of marketable "girl power" signals into the shape of a person, we have a very similar thing going on for queer representation. And the ""marketable" kind of representation now revolves around signaling the right kind of "queer theory" values to appeal to a mostly well meaning, but mostly straight-queer female audience. Of course that's when our representation isn't being pitched to a most pseudo-progressive male audience. Obviously there was a time were, especially in fantasy media, we had some very conventionally attractive and mary-sue-esque lesbians standing in for the whole LGBT cohort! (I also eye-rolled the lesbian scenes in Wheel of Time.) Of course some people will always find something in good in all of these characters. And my own opinions are probably a little out of the mainstream. But one recent disappointment for me was the straight-washing of the Barron in Dune. We're a community that has always appropriated the villains of classic fiction for our own, especially the Disney ones! So the idea that we can handle being the villain in Dune has always struck me as a demeaning act of coddling. And erasure.
One thing I’ve also seen is the degradation of a certain percentage of femininity. If a female character has less and can basically pass as a man, that’s the SFC. If a woman has a combination of both feminine and non- feminine traits they’re tend to be forgotten. BUT if a woman exhibits the utmost feminine values, she is more than likely a villain because, of course, the femme fetale is the ultimate showstopper. It’s the overuse of that archetype I hate, and the fact that it polarizes the creation of female characters and how audiences receive them. It’s either “she’s whiny, and useless” or “she’s an evil bitch”.
💪♀️... THOR is a GOD and the statement "I like this one" could literally refer to lifeform and not gender. Just a thought though I understand the amount of discrimination that exists. I just don't believe everyone screaming discrimination for everything has a valid point for all their claims. We should as a species develop more equipoise...👍
Nah I didn’t think it was discrimination at all. It’s more that the writers are worried we won’t like Captain Marvel instead of letting the character speak for itself.
@@Bookborn Oeff, just starting the video and we're talking this scene in endgame huh, oh boy. When I saw this in the trailer originally I saw what they were doing right away.
@@mohawkmeteor7189 it’s still weird because people meet other people for the first time, they just happen to click. I find it weird that’s considered “forcing people to like a character” when that’s just oddly realistic.
Thor liking Carol also makes sense. They are both extremely powerful beings that have a habit of solving their problems with direct and overwhelming violence. Thor doesn't say he likes her until he tried to make her flinch, and she didn't, not to mention she has spent the whole scene advocating hard for going to Thanos' home and bringing the fight to him with little time spent planning. I think we all have a tendency to like people who advocate for courses of action we desperately want to follow. Not to mention, Carol and Thor both have the most 'bro' personalities of the Avengers.
@@sebrussell But come on, the execution isn't there. It's not a joking manner like he does in other manners where he lightheartedly agrees and points like "See she gets this, just charge in." In the endgame scene, he is full on brooding. Doesn't talk. Doesn't take part. Only comes out for a super dramatic and tense moment of dick measuring after which he gives a deep and intense praise of character based on her not flinching. Like come on, that's not a simple. It's not a superficial little click, he stares into her soul and then approves lol. How hamfisted can it be.
What about the creepy over-sexualisation of heroines? Too often strong and independent woman is reduced to sexually predatory as a proxy for strong, and slutty for independent, as though the ideal of an SFC is somehow a nymphomaniac with daddy issues. WTF? This is particularly troubling for a father of two young daughters.
Who exactly are these people that don't dislike males that show traits of being unbearable? I would love to meet those people. Sometimes women can just be unbearable, not "overly forward." But, we have reached a point in society where you aren't allowed to say that... it's always "males being males, disliking women, yep." You touched on it with Danvers... the reason the writers felt compelled to tell us so much how "great and awesome and likeable" she is, is because they knew she WAS NOT. But, in the end it was blamed on "guys can't handle a strong female character," which was not the case. They couldn't handle terrible writing and absolutely atrocious acting. The actor didn't sell us a likeable character, and it didn't help that in real life the actor was also arrogant and off-putting.
Please do not confuse a good movie with a movie that's entertaining. Mortal Kombat Annihilation was a wildly entertaining movie. But it was absolutely awful! In every way. Captain Marvel as entertaining as it was....definitely was not a good movie. Every point you made was flawless but the movie certainly was not. Making Nick Fury utterly incompetent and getting his eye scratched out by a cat were 2 big issues right there..making him incompetent for the purpose to make her look good is another scratch by itself. She had 3 villains in this story that were all made to look stupid, none of them were fear inducing in anyway. You had the Trainer white dude who was obsessed with her for some reason that wasnt even explained properly. You had Ronin for some odd reason for like 5 seconds to showcase her powers after she was released from her shackles so to speak. And speaking of, bringing us to our next big bad ...or is it? The one that is impersonating her hero or whatever, the voice that does... well..something bad I guess? Again...not truly explained. Then....it was never to be seen again or even brought up...not even by her to the avengers. Complete silence about a potential threat in the universe that knows where her home planet is. Crazy. And not only that, it was also a rip off of "the great intelligence" which was in a Doctor Who arc, and was done much better I might add. A very clever way to use an enemy that can not be seen. I recommend those episodes to compare and contrast. Anyway...those are just my thoughts. Loved yours as well, glad you liked the movie! It was entertaining! It was just a terrible movie that we are all still able to enjoy ...once atleast. Edit: Those Doctor Who episodes of the great intelligence also gives us an example of an actually great female lead. Clara was strong, competent, inviting, exciting to watch her next move. She was brilliant as well. All Doctor Who companions were great in their own way but the first introduction of Clara was very memorable. You'll enjoy the watch
I would sum this up by saying movies and tv don't reflect reality or try to. Anyone using those things to learn about the world is going to have troubles.
Sorry for the weird audio cut out during the endgame scene. It got a copyright claim and RUclips cut out the sound. It was going to be too hard to upload so now we are stuck 😂
i was not expecting you to use my comment lol i thought you would use one a little less blunt. and yes you pronounced my name correctly no butchering there.
"I am a woman in engineering"
Me, a male uncomfortable with the treatment of the two females in my class of forty in the physics department: "fair"
This was 10 years ago, but it stuck out.
haha imagined as much
That was me on the Thor comment. Nice!
Thanks for using my comment, even though it was really A.P.’s. I don’t know if he was copying someone else or just spun the phrase on the spot.
Do you plan to do any content on the Station Eleven adaptation?
I don't care that Louisa (Encanto) is a 'Disney princess', or a woman, or has a vastly different shape to me (I left my bodybuilding days long behind me). What got me hooked is it is a character I see myself in. I cried the first time I heard 'surface pressure' because i related to it so strongly (and the singer has a voice that can break diamond) , and since- I use the song to work out to, or if I need to let off emotional steam.
And I think that is what Hollywood media has forgotten about their SFC characters, and in some cases their SMC ones too - to make them appeal to the innate HUMAN in us first. I think the rift in feminism/masculinity is toxic mostly because the further you delve into one side, the more alien the other side becomes, and in a healthy viewpoint we should ALL be able to see traits of ourselves in each other.
I'm a typical bloke and do masculine dominated work, and for me to admire and look up to a Disney princess when I need to borrow strength from a hero is telling as to why Louisa from Encanto works. Disney may have landed her by accident, but I hope it's a trend that continues.
But what do i know, i'm just a cowboy 🤠
Yes yes yes absolutely. A good character is relatable to ANYONE even if they don’t share traits. Among my favorite characters are men and women both, and some not like me at all and some are. What they have in common is being complex characters. I’m not surprised so many people relate to Louisa - she’s relatable and deep!
Well, from a guy perspective, a major issue I see is that Hollywood these days looks at it like a zero sum game. They elevate the female characters usually at the expense of the male characters, and many times beloved established male characters at that.
*cough* Hulk *cough cough*
And Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi.
Yeah she hinted at that in the first video
I recently rewatched Legally Blonde and enjoyed Elle so much as a character. I’m tired of Hollywood forcing traditionally masculine personalities onto female lead roles in the name of strength.
Also, it feels like a lot of our female lead roles are deprived of supportive loving relationships. Both in the romantic and friendship department. Having and needing support in your life doesn’t make you weak it makes you real??? I hate watching these cold, isolated characters
Legally blonde is such an excellent movie all around and has aged incredibly well. Elle is about as feminine as it gets but she’s whip smart and a hard worker too. And as an added bonus, has female friendships instead of rivalries - and no matter how unrealistic it is, the fact that her and Vivian become friends is just as the best.
I have a issue with the whole system since the strong/complex female characters are need to be fighters. Can we get more variety someone like molly Weasley who is loving and motherly but she could be fierce. I want a female character whose strength is not fighting but her mind her desire to do what is right no matter the cost, someone who is doing the politics in a room who likes to get dressed.
Yeah I talked about that more in the original video :) many people desire more variety. That’s the biggest issue I think
Politics are corrupt ya know
Love to know what you think about the characters in Arcane. I think Arcane does a really good job of portraying many strong female characters. Especially when you go deeper than skin deep with the characters. For example, you could conclude that Vi's strength is her physical strength but more often than not her fists cause problems rather than resolve them. In reality her compassion and love for her sister and her loyalty to her friends could be seen as her true strength.
Yes, I was thinking so much of Arcane while she talked, it does a really good job with its characters
Thank you for the shout-out! You got my name right!
My heart is full.
One thing I would love to see: more fantasy novels and films in which fighting isn't seen is the ultimate solution to the conflict. I loved "Encanto" and Karen Lord's novel "Redemption in Indigo" because both female leads "save the day," but not with combat.
Luisa, as far as I'm aware, is the first statuesque female character in a Disney film who is not a villain.
Oh good, yours was the last name I was most worried about 😂
Fair enough point. 🙂
Although[ I think] the urge to see women save the day specifically _by_ combat, kinda does come from the long history of opposition to the idea of women ever even being capable of combat at all...or somehow not still being a proper woman if they are....rather than anyone ever so much opposing women in combat out of an opposition to combat as a solution in general. I mean, how many movies have there been where women are just grabbed and dragged around basically limp like ragdolls, never even making any mere _attempt_ to really fight back at all? 😅😅 😶🙃
I'm actually all for plotlines in which the solution isn't always combat, even with male leads, too. I just don't see why it should be specifically more proportionally not-the-solution for female leads than for male ones, especially within fantasy settings. (If that makes sense? ^^) I mean, there are just some situations in which non-combat solutions are not exactly an option, because non-combative solutions require either for the other side also acquiescing to non-combat resolutions or for people just rolling over and allowing the other side to do and get away with whatever they want. But, yes, there are a ton of other stories or situations possible other than those kinds of ones that probably should be explored just as much or more often too; on that, I certainly do agree. ^-^
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 I agree with you.
I think what I'd like to see are more fantasy stories in general, regardless of the protagonists' gender, in which fighting isn't the ultimate solution. I love a good battle scene as much as anyone, but could we please have more epic fantasies that don't revolve around war?
@@kelleyceccato7025 Definitely-Same page, here, too. 😊
Absolutely agree with how Encanto portrayed a strong woman. She was very believable and also relatable.
I really liked the comparison you drew between Tony and Carol. They're actually pretty similar in how they are grating personalities. But the movie doesn't treat Tony like more than that usually and has plenty of other flaws.
Maybe a part 3 you could discuss well done strong female characters and focus on some positive examples.
Trying to recall the first video so sorry if it was already discussed. I only recently found you and binged a bunch of videos haha.
Check out Witches of East End, (warning) it gets real hokey!
Game of Thrones, and specially the books, have many Complex Female Characters who act differently from each other.
Sansa is the typical princess or highborn lady, but she's naïve and her character arc is learning to play the game, while still being very feminine.
Arya is a tomboy with many traditional male characteristics, and she stands out because of it. She's not physically strong, so she has to compensate with her wit, and later on agillity and assassin skills, through a lot of training.
Brienne is physically strong and very honourable, but she's insecure because of her looks and because her interests don't align with what's expected of her.
Catylin and Cersei are mothers first, and both want to protect their children at all costs, but they do it in very different ways. Cersei is also much more power-hungry than Caytlin.
And Daenerys is... well, very complex and difficult to describe. I understand why some people don't like her, but her journey from basically being sold as a sex slave to ruler and then tyrant is quite a ride, to say the least.
I haven't even mentioned so many others, like Margeary, Olenna, Meera, Asha (Yara), Osha, Arianne and the Sand Snakes (in the books), etc. All of them are different and flawed in some ways, while being strong in others.
GRRM wrote his story based in medieval Europe, and all these characters have to deal with misogyny basically every day of their lives.
Thank you for the shoutout, much appreciated!
It has been a while since I've seen Captain Marvel, so I'd have to review, but I can see the Tony comparison making sense. Interestingly, part of Tony's arc is his overcoming his ego and need for control by listening to and engaging with others, and understanding the concept of Self-Sacrifice. In a sense, overcoming the masculine coded idea of bearing sole responsibility for everyone.
Despite lots of study on this particular topic - if not specifically on the concept of "Strong Female Characters" I've never heard the Smurfette Principle, but it does tie-in nicely with the Bechdel Test. Whenever I think of films that do not pass it, I also struggle to think of the presence of other female characters.
As always, thanks for sharing, and providing your insights.
All the best
I really appreciate these two videos, as well as your routine inclusion of the feminine aspects of storytelling in your content. I don't see so much of this sort of exploration, and when I do it's not as nuanced as you tend to take it. As a storyteller, I've always been fascinated by the inclusion not just of female characters, but of gender dynamics. So no Smurfette Syndrome here. But I do admit that my portrayal has evolved (hey, I'm a dude). But I'm committed to continuing my evolution, so hearing about the topic from a fantasy fan as thoughtful as you helps. I've written two essays on the topic (as it applies to my work), and you've got me wondering if it's time for another.
I've been lucky to have strong female role models for my work, including my wife (first and foremost), our moms, and our sisters. Indeed, one of my favorite character dynamics to explore is sisterhood. Sisters are so fascinating. They can savage one another one moment and fiercely defend one another the next. Not that that's never true of brothers, of course. But that's a "spirit trope" that always gets me cheering. Mothers and daughters are terrific fodder for seeking depth and nuance in a relationship, too. And complexity (yay, CFCs!) in those relationships only enhances the complexity in all the tangential relationships. It makes me wonder why so few fantasy storytellers seem to want to tap into this treasure trove.
Thanks again! Keep up the good work.
I loved this video. I also whis there would be more varied bodytypes for female characters not just the skinny ones. I loved that about Cara Dune in the Mandalorian. (I won’t go into the controversy about the actress here.) But I really loved the character and tought she was very believable.
I was so sad about Cara Dune. She was amazing in the Mandalorian.
Her muscles tho 😭
I love how you engage with the comment section, and this vid is just as great as its Part one.
I don't have much to add, except thank you for bringing up the harm sexist view of masculinity/femininity causes to men as well as to women.
I agree with the Hero's Journey. A perfect example is Sarah Connor. She starts out as a damsel in distress who has to be saved by her white knight, but in the end, even though she fails to save her white knight, still keeps fighting.
My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic had a great example of a cast of diverse female characters forming friendships and exploring complex character arcs. I think it should be listed as a good opposite to the Smurfette principle. The only problem there is having only one male character in Spike.
I heard somewhere on RUclips that the script for Alien said that any character can be either gender. Well, that's one way of writing good female characters. Ripley is one of my favourite female heroes simply because she is one of my favourite movie heroes. Apparently she wasn't written as a female. She was written as a survivor, and it turned out great with Sigourney Weaver being cast in the role.
Then Aliens added flavour to the character when she showed that maternal instinct toward Newt. Adding that femininity without taking away from her other characteristics worked very well for me.
On the other issue of the different perception of men and women who "don't smile" I think Galadriel in Rings of Power is a good example. I have heard and read so much trash about her that I think is undeserved. Some say she is abrasive and mean. I say she is focused, unbending and stern. And I love it, and I love the way Morfydd Clarke portrays Galadriel! (For the record I should state that I don't think Rings of Power is particularly well written and I hate that they try to make Galadriel look strong by making the other fighters worthless. Any warrior elf that has practiced for hundreds or thousands of years should be formidable.) Galadriel is my favourite character in the show. What makes her stand out is her dedication to her cause and her intensity. I can totally see that with time and events she will become the Galadriel we know from The Fellowship of the Ring. She has a few thousand years to mellow and mature and I am interested to see the beginnings of that process. I hope that Amazon will hire better writers and showrunners to make it happen in a believable way. I mostly watch for Galadriel. The rest is kind of sub standard to me.
THANK YOU for talking about how dislikable female characters are being praised often. I tried to break down two characters from two very different shows who were both arrogant, egotiscal, and dislikable. For the woman I picked ROP Galadriel. She is introduced as a fearsome warrior on a vengeful quest to defeat Sauron. Throughout the show she is constantly condescending, manipulative, and overall unlikable. I wouldn't have minded (though as a tolkien fan it was painful to watch) but the show tried to make her the good guy. That's where I couldn't agree. Comparing her to Souji Tendo from Kabuto and he is the same. Self-centered, egotistical, less manipulative but he's dismissive and arrogant. The striking difference was, he was constantly called out for it. Often even. By his sister, his friends, random strangers. In very few instances was his attitude tolerated unless it was by those who didn't actually know him. That was when I realized it wasn't just a gender thing. We had our Iron mans. Our arrogant, self-centered pricks. But what we rarely had was an audience of seals cheering on his toxic behavior all through the movies. That's where I see a big problem. There's nothing wrong with an agressive, arrogant girl in a show. But I don't want to be forced into liking her. Just my thoughts.
Edit: Also i guess Galadriel falls into the "masculinizing (not a word I know) feminine characters" pile so that was another issue I had but still it was the arrogance that had me rolling
Yes, yes YES. It's such an interesting phenomenon that dislikeable female characters are rewarded by those in the narrative while the same traits in male characters are not. I think dislikeable female characters are great, but the narrative needs to support it.
I'm surprised Rey didn't pop up in the conversation. The problem I have with Rey (and I believe others do too) is that she never has to earn her strength with the force, she can just do things. I remember Daisy Ridley made a point in how powerful it was for little girls to see a heroine wearing trousers. That's great, but why should I care about what she's wearing as a selling point for the character? Is she complex, does she have an arc, does she feel things? Rey is a little all over the place (even before Rise of Skywalker adding to the mess). Her initial arc of trying to find out who she is, only for her to be a nobody is a good idea, but because she's a nobody her strength in the force doesn't make much sense for a nobody to wield. Take Rand in WoT, he's a sheep hearder who thinks he's the son of a shepherd, only to find out that he isn't related to him at all, but finds out he's part of this grand prophecy that means he's either the saviour or destroyer of the world. But a key difference between Rand and Rey is that lineage played into Rand's importance and his power, (now the same could be said for Rey due to her being a Palpatine, but people took issue with Rey pre-Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker).
Rey hasn’t been brought up because I’m planning a video on the Mary Jane trope in which she’ll be a primary subject 🤣🤣
If you dislike Rey for this reason you should also dislike Anakin/Darth Vader. He is not related to anyone who was strong in the force. He was powerful because the force selected him. I would like to see the force as a self-balancing power. It needed to be balanced so it selected Anakin. I hoped they would do the same with Rey but they ruined it by bringing back the stupid force heredity thing.
The SFC, the Mary Jane, and the Mary Sue walk into a bar...
“Hi, MJ!” Says Peter Parker from behind the bar. (I didn’t know MJ was a trope!)
@@mukeka1337 Not a good comparison to Annakin, he spent his most of his childhood being trained as a Jedi.. In the first movie his only power perse was being a human with faster than normal reflexes making him a podracer.. Also it's hinted that his immaculate conception may not have been immaculate and more manipulation of the force by Palpetine and his master.. At least in the books anyway.. Rey on the other hand was wielding the force like a pro defeating a sith apprentice in a lightsaber duel while only finding out the force existed that day..
@@dannicatzer305 Kylo Ren wasn't really trying to kill Rey which is why she was able to 'defeat' him, also he had a big hole in his side. Ren beat Finn in two seconds and left him for dead because he doesn't care about him. Then he tried to make Rey join him. Also I don't believe the force is something you can be trained in specifically. It's about humility and openeness, I think. Anakin, Luke, Leia were all able to use the force before they knew such a thing existed. In that sense Rey spent her entire life 'training' in the force, she had to survive alone in the desert since she was a child and that included a lot of fight training.
My biggest issue with Carol/Captain Marvel is that her story arc makes her oppressors/abusers *correct*. The movie starts with her being told to control her emotions because they make her weak. Her breakthrough moment at the climax has her reaching her ultimate power level by doing precisely that. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too: the bad guys are bad because they tell her to control her emotions, and she is a strong character because she's going to embrace her emotions, and then... her ultimate form from then on is a mega-stoic emotionless badass.
What are we supposed to take away from that? That people who tell us truths we don't like are bad and deserve to be destroyed when we eventually realise they were right all along and trying to help us with tough love? What a petty character.
Contrast this to my personal favourite character ever: Beatrice Kiddo from Kill Bill. In many ways her arc and character is defined and *empowered* by her emotions, which build on top of the brutally abusive training she pushed herself through to become the best of the best. She endures and overcomes real hardship, loss, and failure, and as a result is infinitely more badass than Carol (though tbh, almost every other character also).
Critically, Beatrice Kiddo's story is a *woman's* story. It would be dramatically weaker and unrecognisable if you tried to make it about a man. Conversely, Carol's story is a man's story. Boy raised to control thoughts and feelings who then levels up when he finally gains that control is the cliché male arc (Luke Skywalker and all Jedi). So much so that the inversion of that (boy rejects control and embraces emotions) is a cliché male villain arc (Darth Vader and all Sith). Carol's gender is worse than irrelevant: it's token.
I know it's an old comment, but I have to say I deeply disagree about your take on Luke Skywalker here. The point of his arc is *precisely* that he wins by embracing his emotions and vulnerable side. He doesn't defeat the Emperor by becoming a stoic badass and killing Vader. He defeats the Emperor by throwing away his lightsaber and refusing to kill his father, believing he still has some human feelings in him. And he is proven correct.
Yoda and Obi-Wan were trying to lead him down this path of becoming a detached, emotionless knight who must kill his father for the greater good, but he rejects it. Of course first he had to learn to not let his emotions rule his actions in "The Empire Strikes Back", but I'd argue in the end he becomes a very balanced person, in control of his emotions, but able to embrace them and make himself vulnerable when it's called for. His story is the exact opposite of the cliche you described.
It's jumping a bit out of your fantasy focus into sci-fi, but I thought that the Expanse did a really good job allowing female characters to be strong without being masculine. Yes, Bobbie and to a lesser extent Drummer could be described in that mold, but it also has Avasarala and Naomi. They're both incredibly strong but without being traditionally masculine or even fighters. And then all 4 of them have additional traits, issues, and motivations on top of that variety.
I think the best thing about The Expanse is that *every* character was lovable and hateable at times. They were all deeply complex, motivated, conflicted, distinct, and compelling. It's a masterclass in how to write *characters*, period.
The smurfette principle is weirdly similar to how Black Characters were treated in the 70s and 80s action movies. They were usually the only one amongst White Characters and usually died doing something heroic
Oh ABSOLUTELY. “The token black character” is still a problem, imo. It has the same thing as the smurfette principle that unless a show is “targeted towards the black community” then it’s mostly going to be white people.
2 years later, but I agree with the Ms. Marvel comment. I've watched countless movies with male protagonists where the guy was told he couldn't do something, or wasn't good at something, etc., and the protagonist uses that as inspiration later in life. Look at Captain America.
Hey, how are you? I haven’t been on RUclips for a while. Glad to see you’re still making great videos. Keep it up!
Johanna has it spot on. The problem isn't with the lack of strong characters, but with the lack of complex characters. Hollywood does have a bad tendency to create caricatures rather than characters. Female characters tend to suffer more for this treatment. It's easier for a writer to throw out a handful of character tropes and move on. Building complex characters (especially female, if the writer is a male) takes a lot of time and thought.
Too hard to make a meal from scratch, let's do frozen pizza in the microwave instead.
That's the feeling that I get from most Hollywood bullshit.
These two videos illustrate my views on this topic perfectly! Thank you for talking about this topic.
In response to the first comment (“smurfette principle,”/multiple SFC’s): this is REALLY REALLY HARD!!! It requires juggling multiple protagonists with their own goals, wants, needs, flaws, wounds and arcs all while tying coherently into a single main plot. I’ve been TRYING for awhile now.
It is definitely very difficult! But having SFC's don't always have to be main characters. I'll always defend LOTR: Eowyn and Galadriel are not seen a lot in the books but they are excellent characters.
@@Bookborn great point!
@@Bookborn i think the smurfette worked in LOTR because Tolkien based his story of off actual history hence female warriors, adventurers, soldiers, etc. Would be rarer thus he portrayed it accurately. But in 2022, it's more likely to be half or 1/3
What bothers me the most about this shift to the "strong female character" is the sheer quantity being put out for consumption. I can suspend disbelief in 90 lb women kicking 220 pound Navy Seal ass occasionally, but when it has to happen in every single new production it has become a swipe left exercise just looking at the marketing picture on any entertainment choice on a streaming site. Women throughout time just do not physically kick mens collective asses, many videos out there when women challenge men in physical contests in real life. What is wrong to show the strengths of women how they historically win against men? Intelligence, guile, manipulation, and control through sex. Sometimes I wonder how the current entertainment programming will affect young boys growing up? Will they still adhere to a "never hit a woman" philosophy as my generation was raised? I am still incredulous on the opening scene of Wheel of Time episode 7. Though an incredibly shot fight scene and entertaining from a sheer I love martial art films perspective, does anyone think there has been even one woman throughout all of human space and time who was able to fight off a platoon of armored soldiers WHILE IN LABOR?!?
The daughters of Genghis Khan fought on the battlefield while pregnant. That’s gotta count for something.
Okay... but a man shouldn't really be any less likely to hit a woman than they should be to hit a man. If a woman is going to act in a way that would get a man hit if a man acted that way, why shouldn't acting that way get a woman hit for it too? (It's not any more okay for a person to be an asshole toward someone else just because they're a less physically imposing or strong person than the one they're targeting-and if it's just the fact that it's not okay to hit someone physically smaller or less capable than you are, rather than the fact that women are somehow special snowflakes who must always look pretty and can't handle or withstand anything, then that should apply to men smaller or less capable than someone hitting them as well.) *No one* should be hitting *_anyone_* without _extremely_ good reason to do so; and *no one* should be giving anyone good reason to hit them. (Regardless of genders.) And that also doesn't mean you shouldn't still want to defend or protect anyone who gets hit when they don't deserve it[ or if it goes beyond even what they maybe did deserve], regardless of whether they can or can't also defend their own self. (Also, regardless of genders.)
No one should use sex as a means of manipulation or control, unless they are a bad person.
And women should not be relegated to their only possible strengths[ or means of defense] residing in being either evil/conniving bitches, or sex objects.
If women want to train or strengthen themselves physically or combat-wise, instead of relying exclusively on intellect, they should be allowed to-just as men who don't actually want to train or strengthen themselves physically or combat-wise, shouldn't actually have to do so, either. Different people are allowed to be different people. (And being physically strong or a good fighter, also does not always automatically equate to reduced intelligence or lesser cunning at all, either.)
Even in real-world combat, who wins[ or doesn't] isn't always exclusively about their brute strength alone, except in certain more-specific situations when it actually is. (Not every physical fight is a full-on bodily wrestling match.) And how closely matched[ or not] two people actually are in a fight realistically depends not just on their relative size or brute-strength compared to each other's, but also on their actual skill or proficiency at fighting to begin with, and sometimes even their reaction-time or action-speed or relative momentum and alertness or exhaustion compared to the other person's; and despite what is commonly shown on screen, not all men are actually drastically larger than all women, even without the woman being someone who is anything like the super big strong-musclewoman from Encanto in size or sheer mass of muscle. Men and women both come in a range of sizes, from smaller[ or weaker] to larger[ or stronger], and everything between.
That being said, though, I do agree that not all things should always be depicted in exactly the same ways in fiction all of the time. Increasing representation of certain types of characters or storylines should not decrease representation of other types; it shouldn't always be an either/or kind of situation, where it can only ever be one thing or the other, it should be more of a blended-mix with some of each thing depicted sometimes and just about anything in-between depicted sometimes as well.
But your protest specifically about the scene in Wheel of Time being unrealistic is kind of moot[ in my opinion], since WoT is a fantasy version of the world, which is full of humans of both genders who are not like anything throughout all of real-world history; not just that one particular woman which you reference here. (I mean, does any actual person that is anything like Loial or people who Channel anything like the Aes Sedai do actually exist in human history either?) And even within Wheel of Time, that woman wasn't exactly just any ordinary WoT woman either, although the TV series itself didn't really get into that specifically. Also..she didn't exactly fight them off completely, anyhow, did she? Since she got stabbed[ I do believe more than once] and probably died...and her enemy was left still standing afterward[ and far less-scathed than her] too, she just gave them a good run for their money before she became overwhelmed in the battle. Not to mention, she was also really only taking them on just one or two at a time, for the most part. But since, historically, women do not typically enter into battlefield combat whilst in labor...who knows what a highly-trained pregnant woman in labor in battle and pumping full of adrenaline would or wouldn't really be capable of doing or not. (But, again, it is a FANTASY setting; and even men, in fantasy settings, are quite often depicted doing things[ or fighting off extreme numbers of opponents] that no real-life man has ever been capable of doing too. So, I don't really see how that is an issue, just because in this particular fantasy case it is a woman. How many other times has a woman been shown doing anything like that, even in a fantasy setting? Why fuss about a singular exception, especially after claiming that you don't mind the occasional exception and that it's really just when it becomes more of a rule than an exception that you take issue with it supposedly.)
And it can also be dangerous territory sometimes to tread specifically upon "historically" as a measure of what women are or aren't actually capable or incapable of doing anyhow, since _historically_ there are many things that women have been actively disallowed or prevented from doing which they would otherwise actually have been perfectly capable of, so who can really say at this point which things have not historically been seen because of that prevention or disallowance rather than specifically because it's an actual or literal impossibility for them. I mean, in reality, Joan of Arc was executed just because she wouldn't stop wearing pants after the war was over! Let's come back in another couple hundred years and then ask again what any woman has or hasn't ever [historically ]done. Maybe the answers will be the same as they are now, or maybe they'll actually differ, who knows; Only time will tell. 🙂
(But, purely hypothetical here, let's say maybe there was one woman who did fight off a whole armored platoon of men in the middle of the wilderness once and she was the only witness left standing; who exactly would have historically recorded that happening at all, and who exactly would have believed it actually happened without personally witnessing it even if they had heard of it later on, in which would it have ever actually been recorded historically even if it did ever actually happen? 🤔🤷♀️🤷♀️)
But while we're on the subject...has there ever actually been one man who singlehandedly fought off an entire platoon of armored soldiers either? I'm curious, because I'm not an absolute expert on historical feats of combat.😊 I might have to do some research into that, myself. Lol
Couldn’t say anything better. I think that comment about endlessly copying a formula without recognizing what makes the original template so great in the first place is Hollywood’s problem in 50% of their atrocities.
I appreciate the comparison between Tony Stark and Carol. It rings similar to the Rey vs. Luke comparison in Star Wars. I've heard a lot of people say that not liking Rey is just internalized misogyny because she's just basically Luke, but I disagree. In A New Hope, Luke SUCKED at using the Force. We had an entire scene of him training and getting his butt kicked by an automated laser robot while Obi-wan lectured him about how to use the force. Everything he did on his own was shooting a blaster and making poor decisions up until he ONCE used the force to help him accomplish a task he had, by his own admission, been doing WITHOUT the force on his home planet for years. He then spent almost an entire movie training on how to use the force with Yoda. Rey, on the other hand, got captured in her first movie, told she had force sensitivity, and immediately used the force on a random guard to get him to let her go (a thing Luke didn't even know was possible when he met Obi-wan, and certainly couldn't have done). Then she held her own in a light saber duel with a trained Sith. If Luke had faced the things Rey did in her first movie, he'd have died early and quickly. That's not to say Rey didn't have interesting motivation and they couldn't have done some very interesting things with her, but they gave her WAY too much power and control of the force way too early, and it made her feel....less. You struggled with Luke, worried that he wasn't going to find a way out, mourned when Obi-wan sacrificed himself to save Luke. If they'd let us struggle with Rey in the way we struggled with Luke, we'd have loved her. It definitely felt to me like exactly the thing that one commenter said about Katniss-clones. They knew a powerful force sensitive person was popular, they knew they wanted a female character, they plugged Luke-like character traits into a female and forgot what made Luke work. We didn't love Luke for his power with the force, we loved him for his struggles.
Wow the comment about the hero's journey was 🤯 exactly what I think but in words I have never thought to say. Also, my wife and I just finished rewatching Better Call Saul (her first time) and I am just appalled that more people are not talking about Kim goddamn Wexler. My wife was immediately drawn to Kim (who was already my favorite character) and kept talking about how complex she is and how rare it is to see a female character like Kim who is both hyper competent but very flawed, very emotional but also very stoic, just extremely dynamic. Again, I "knew" all these things about Kim Wexler but hadn't put them into words until Jess and I started discussing together.
Tl;dr- people need to watch Better Call Saul and learn a thing a two 🤔😂
+1 on Kim. Great character. For my money it's "Better" than Breaking Bad, which really was tough for me since I didn't feel like there was anyone to root for amongst that miserable lot. I think A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones) books do a good job of putting several diverse, complex female characters thru different types of heroic (or anti-heroic) journeys.
I honestly consider us lucky whenever Hollywood gives us complex male or female characters. The main reason movies are are made is not to advance society or give representation for any group but simply to make money. Since making a movie is such a huge financial risk most execs tend to play it safe and go with what has been proven to turn a profit in the past not with any original ideas.
On a different note.
I get people’s objection to the Mary Sue trope but it doesn’t bother me because I like when a female character kicks butt even when there is no good reason for it.
Lastly, after watching quite a few of your videos this is the first time I hear you are an engineer. I like when women get involved in traditionally male roles so bonus points for that. As a society we’ll only really level up when there no longer is such a thing as a male or female role.
Coming from a man who has become comfortable with emotion. 😉
About females and likeablity, but also what I consider to be a flawed strong female characters, Blair Waldorf is the perfect example of a character who is snarky and mean spirited. But the thing is even though Blair is many times right about a lot of things, she also gets a lot wrong and many is he arcs is having to deal with those situations. Hasty assumptions and conclusion, lack of patience or empathy. It always comes back to bite her on the b**t and settle things. Blair also shows a different sprectrum of emotions and the kinds of challenge she has to deal with also change a lot. Internal one, external ones, my girl gets it all. Shes doesn't completly change who she is, because I believe the show Gossip Girl tries to concey that some people just won't change, not really. They may even make the same mistakes again and that many times leads to a spiral and second guessing everything they believed they know and that's Blair. She is just a complete person. We as viewers get to peek behind the curtain and learn what makes her the way she is. Where her insecurities come from and why they stay with her and makes it so she can't actually change. Maybe cause her circunstances haven't changed, so it is doing a job there.
That comparison to Tony was perfect. It puts a lot of characters into perspective.
Black Widow is a SFC, bordering on a CFC, and unlike Danvers, isn’t looking for approval. (And that's the issue with Danvers--The continual need to gain approval, either from beyond the fourth wall in the audience, or from within.)
The same can definitely be said for the "Replacement 007" in the new James Bond. Their character was CRAVING approval.)
Juxtapose this to the new Hawkeye show. Both Kate Bishop, and Yelena aren’t looking for approval. Well, actually you could argue that at the outset, Kate, as a "side-kick" was seeking Barton's approval as a mentor. But she came into her own when she realized that she didn't need his approval. She made her own decision to be a Hero, just as Barton had to decide the same for himself. They also made sure to show that Kate and Yelena can both take hard knocks, and dish them out, and they can both bleed. It humanized them, past the generally two-dimensionality of Natasha Romanov, nor the very two-dimensional Carol Danvers.
Once again. Great commentary from you Bookborn. I really appreciate your POV.
Ahh seeking approval as a trait isn’t the problem. As I agree Zuko’s storyline is probably the most compelling in Avatar. The problem I have with Carol’s is that it feels all EXTERNAL rather than internal. It’s everyone else’s problem with not approving her. Whereas your example of Zuko - boy is his a completely internal struggle constantly. Idk if I’m explaining it correctly but they didn’t allow Carol to be weak in any way which ultimately hurt her. In some ways, Zuko is one of the most fragile people in Avatar
@@sxwriter8569 Yeah exactly. Needing approval is a solid and interesting trait. There is a point to be made in meta approval, when it feels the writers just write a scene to go to the audience: "See that? You should like them!
@@sxwriter8569 nothing wrong with seeking approval. Its a matter of how it is portrayed and and executed and resolved. To Bookborn's point, using Thor as a "See, I like her, so you need to approve of Danvers too" is a Writers' Room weakness. Danver's seeks approval, but never resolves it. But my point that Natasha and Yelena are not seeking approval--They are confident in themselves. That takes them to a different level of Self-Defined SCF/CFC. And my final point is that Kate Bishop accomplished the arc of Approval-that-is resolved. If you study the archetypical arcs of the Maiden and Queen and Crone, (See KM Weiland's Blog Helping Writers Become Authors) these three arcs resolve when the character (not defined by their gender but by the story arc they are going through) unites "that which they are" with "that which they are told-they-ought-to-be." When the unification is reached, the character reaches an apotheosis that is very different from the "Hero's Arc" of "If I beat the Dragon, I become a god." Mirabel of Encanto is a great example of this too. She must come to terms with both being "un-powered" and also being who she is. (She teaches both halves of this lesson to her two sisters, and teaches it to herself at the same time.)
@@Bookborn exactly. I don't disagree at all. The need for approval is in us all and makes for a fantastic character flaw. Zuko's story hits a turning point when he comes to terms with realizing he doesn't need his father's approval. And that his Uncle was his "true father" and approved of him all along.
(SW/LotR/Marvel Netflix/MCU spoilers incoming with some signposts of possible spoilers):
I believe a part 3 can be made bouncing off comments below on Kate Bishop and Echo from the Dis+ Hawkeye miniseries extending to upcoming Jennifer Walters, power lawyer, who is She-Hulk! Physically literally imposing STRONG, rawr! And extend that to Marvel Netflix (soon to be Hulu) badass sociopath assassin Elektra Natchios in Daredevil, petite crime boss Madame Gao in same who actually intimidates physically imposing Kingpin/Wilson Fisk, or manipulative but hero-allied power attorney Jeri Hogarth played by Carrie Ann Moss (aka Trinity), and physically powered and actually literally STRONG Jessica Jones and the captains in Luke Cage. The fact that the biggest Marvel cinematic event showcased an improbable huddle wink at audience “fan service” at the most prominent level does a disservice to the individual badass characters of favorites like Scarlet Witch who went (SPOILERS) toe to toe with Thanos and (SPOILERS) made him pull out all stops as she was about to singlehandedly tear him apart and not to mention Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel coming in to singlehandedly wreck the enemy mothership and toe to toe with Thanos if he hadn’t popped out a power stone to wield against her! There’s “strong” and then there’s “power”, key difference but all good! They deserve their own showcasing beyond that moment that today, not to be all sociopolitical about it,, but at least two in that inorganic moment do a disservice to themselves as just people, I think...ugh. Anyway, hoping for a part 3 and a Bookshelf Tour, Bookborn!! I’ve been wondering since I will say, your library as is, is not so much a “book tube, dang you HAVE a LOT of showcased books color coordinated etc etc” library as it is a “those are some cool books I wanna check” library! A cool library! And the Cap shield and the DnD 📚 books I’m so curious about! Plus, actually adept and physically imposing Brienne of Tarth, as I think awesomely adapted in GoT from the GRRM A Song of Ice and Fire yet unfinished series novels: “I am no lady!”
Finally bouncing off of the “I am no man” moment in LotR (I wished for a more screeching villain like in animated) and the inspired non-canonical moment of (FotR SPOILERS) Arwen facing off against most of the Nine: “if you want him, come and claim him!” My list of “SFC”! And finally, katana wielding Michonne from the Walking Dead who is more powerful and wiser as a person than her friend who almost shot one of their own tryna be tough. Also, the complexity of having a “Lady Macbeth” type character who influences the protagonist/antagonist for good or bad. Strength, power, influence. Writers, quit shoehorning actors, men and women, into having limited vocabulary and definition of “strong” resulting in chars like rey. Rey who? (As she side eyes the camera...). Will add leadership to traits of actual genuine SFC. M from the current and new completed Craig Bond Series. And the unique (Casino Royale SPOILERS) of the both damsel in distress/love interest/ “partner in crime” physically fought alongside Bond that one critical moment...
Vesper Lynd.
And America Chavez in upcoming Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness trailer...and Ayo, Okoye’s right hand, in Falcon and the Winter Soldier dealing with Bucky Barnes...villain wise, you have Hela. This has become an MCU thread...it’s the Captain now.
I watched both videos and you really hit it on the head. My wife and I also liked both Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman but thought Wonder Woman was a lot better and you gave great reasons why. It’s hard with Marvel because I’m a life long fan of the comics, I still read them, up to the movies. I totally get what you’re saying with the smurfette syndrome. It’s hard when you’re telling an origin story that’s trying to be at least loosely based on the comic version and you don’t want to change so much that it looks nothing like the comic. I feel they did that with Eternals. Changed so much I hated it. Avengers felt more in the spirit of the comic. Eventually the team added more members to the point where you had at least 3 females on the team like when they had Wanda, She Hulk, and Wasp. I get what you’re saying but at least with that franchise I wouldn’t have it any other way. I’m 50/50 on the Endgame scene. My wife felt the same way. Both loved and hated that scene. She and many other ladies I know have loved the Avengers movies in spite of having only Black Widow for 2 of those movies. Again I still get your point and they should just do different or create new teams with more women rather than try to change source material because usual when they change source material it feels forced and falls into all the issues you’ve mentioned here. But for the most part I agree 100%. I’m currently writing a fantasy novel with a party that has 3 men and 2 women and doing my best, by having those ladies inspired by women I know, 1 being my wife, to not fall into the traps you mentioned. Thanks for a great couple of videos on this subject
I mean I love Marvel! Admittedly I haven’t read the comments but I love the movies and I didn’t mean that criticism to say they should’ve changed it. Just that it was really surprising to me to see that out of 30 movies so few broke the smurfette principle. I still think we need male dominated stories as much as we need female dominated ones, tbh. But I think 4/30 movies is surprisingly few. We could’ve had a few more in there somewhere… even if it was original IPs. But yeah I get it. Comic fans want it like the comics and I won’t begrudge them that
I've enjoyed both videos on this discussion, and while I'm not going out of my way to be pedantic, when you brought up the issue of strength, I think it's worth mentioning that there are _many_ types of strength and body types ideal for each of them. Gymnasts, ballerinas and ice skaters are all incredibly strong to do what they do, and spend probably half of their waking hours working out and refining their routines. That's a lot of calories burned to fuel their bodies. (This is also why most of them retire in their early 30s, because their bodies physically cannot hold up to that level of abuse without joints breaking down.) But I also appreciate Louisa from _Encanto,_ she's a wonderful character. 🙂
I heard of a case a long time ago where a ballerina go threatened by a sailor in a cabin, who was armed with a knife and wanted to steal her jewellery, but she gave him a strong kick and it later killed him. I'd say someone like Simone Biles is even stronger and probably could easily kill a man if she wanted, even with her arms.
The book I'm currently trying to write (help me god) has a man and woman lead. The woman is a scientist that helped the government in their schemes to take full control of the population by inserting a chip in their brains. She will eventually have a change of heart and help man-protag (man-protag was also a dirty person but let's stick with woman-protag) turn the situation around and * insert book things here *. She can't fight and need to use her head to get things done while man-protag is let's say an * apex predator * in his former line of work. They need to work as a team during the book and will develop a rather unique relationship (not love-oriented). I put a lot of time in her so she doesn't feel strong out of nowhere or * cheap strong * and woman-protag is currently the only thing I feel proud about for this book lmao. When you get to know her, you realize she's extremely strong but also very flawed and layered, just like man-protag. Both protags fail a lot before having a W and this was important to gage in this story. I guess we'll see if you ever read it one day lmao!
Another insightful look at a problematic situation. Thank you for continuing to look beyond the surface of what media is on offer.
I'm about to add a new shelf to my 'goodreads' - Passed the Bechdel. Because why should I only be paying attention to this in movies?
Yeah the Bechdel is interesting because it does become slightly more difficult in books. For example, a book from a single perspective that happens to be male would be impossible to pass the test as everything is viewed from a single (male) perspective. But it’s always a good starting point
@@Bookborn That's a really good point, so the fact I can say that Farseer meets the criteria, satisfies me immensely.
I actually liked that scene with Thor, he liked her attitude when he was trying to spook her. Like he saw the worthy warrior in her. I might be reading too much into it, but that's how I took it. Great video, I love these introspection topics.
Ugh, that 'Endgame' scene, the only glaring blemish in an otherwise pretty great film... but I digress. I never really thought that much about comparing Tony and Carol, but you make a really good point here!
While not a film or a book, I always consider 'Avatar: The Last Airbender' as a high-point for writing female characters. There's just *one* episode that addresses sexism directly and feels a bit too on-the-nose for it. Otherwise, though, I think the series offers a good showcase of different women in different roles who are just as awesome and complex as their male counterparts.
I mean Toph is such a beloved character! And Katara is great too. And of course there’s Zukos sis… yes lots of great representation in that show
Strong character (as in complex and well-written) can also be strong (as in badass). But Hollywood only knows one kind od badass, and that's the physically can kick your ass badass. There are so many other strenghts. One can be cunning and outsmart you, one can be compassionate and win people's support, one can can be learned and use technology to beat you... There are so many ways to be badass. I'm tired of only seeing physical strength, which I cannot relate to at all. And on thin bodies, too. My favorite female character from WoT? Verin. An absolute badass though she doesn't kick anyone's ass. GoT? Cersei, though I hate her guts. Stormlight? Navani! I can go on.
the best thing about the endgame scene is mantis in the background who unlike in the comics has not shown anyfighting prowess
Smurfette Principle...this is the term I was groping for over the past week.
I know I can’t believe I forgot it too! Such a perfect description.
That’s a trend I’ve noticed since the age of 10.
I know this is slightly off topic to your discussion but you should check out The Expanse for the best done complex female characters in Hollywood.
I cannot tell you how many people have been commenting this 😂 it must be super good!
Another example of a work that gets strong and complex female characterization right and also presents an interesting twist on the meaning of "strong" is Violet Evergarden. In full disclosure, I've only seen the film version not the full TV anime series and I haven't read the light novel it's based on. *Mild spoiler alert* In Violet Evergarden, which is set in a fictionalized light-scifi version of Europe around WWI, the female protagonist is a former child/teenage-soldier. And she was good in that role: strong, swift, like a ninja-assassin, with an impressive set of combat and kill skills. However, the film makes it clear that these are things to be overcome, not celebrated as "strengths", and the story instead is centered around Violet's journey to overcome the traumas of her warrior past and learn "the meaning of 'I love you'". The film and Violet's character celebrates the softer but more powerful force of love (including self-worth) rather than the boom-boom-kapow-slit-throat action that characterizes more and more women characters in stuff out of hollywood. I was much more emotionally stirred in watching Violet's journey to liberation (understanding love) than watching Carol's journey to "liberation" (removing the limits off her physical power and going boom-boom-pow-pow on Jude Law).
Arcee from Transformers Prime is an excellent female character.
6:59 Re: Captain Marvel, I've seen a good argument that the issue is that she starts off relatively complete as a character. So the constant flashbacks to the various sexism events, ring hollow as a challenge. She is blasting her commanding officer from the beginning. Nick Fury plays the sidekick clown next to her. She pretty much waltzes through the entire plot with little if any apparent self-doubt.
And like one small change would have helped a lot:
That limiter that they put on her..... it should have prevented her energy blast use completely and limited her power usage to some durability and enhanced strength maybe. And she should have almost agreed to having the limiter on because she was afraid of her own strength. She also ought to have started off afraid of her commanding officer and he should have been developed as someone who's a threat, at least to the un-empowered Carol. Then all the flashbacks full of doubt would have had meaning: they would represent the voices of doubt in her head.
Then as the story progresses, she realizes she's the only one who can solve the story problems and finally puts her foot down, stands up to the AI and busts out of her limiter restraints and goes to town on them, finally blasting her commanding officer and flying off to do all the other awesome things.
Hmm. While I think complexity is an important aspect of characters in general, I think agency is another aspect which (when combined) makes them a strong character. Memorable and important are two other words we could use. The criticism of Disney princesses is rarely about their complexity, it's because the story happens TO them, and they're just carried along. Even though they are the focus, they aren't active, and they come across as weak characters.
I talk about agency a lot in my first video :) no word will completely cover what we all want, but I like the idea that strong has sort of been perverted to just mean physical strength while complex means someone has multiple storylines and that includes agency.
3:16 - My only issue with comments like this is that it tends to shoehorn what exactly is or isn't "feminine"[ and "masculine"] in the first place anyhow into a fairly narrow box.
Which kind of goes into the point made at 7:11 too, honestly-about how people often have a harmful focus one what gals[ and guys] "should" or "shouldn't" 'be' rather than simply letting all people just be the people that they actually are.
More specifically to your response to the comment at 7:11 than to that comment itself, however....I feel like it is, let's just say, not necessarily great to look down on stories about overcoming external factors. Rising up in spite of, or triumphing over, external odds-or disproving external misperceptions-can also be important or fun stories to tell or see explored as well. I don't feel like literally every character should always have to be somehow broken or conflicted on the inside...like, there shouldn't be anything wrong with some people or characters actually just legit having their stuff a bit more together on the inside than other people do(That's actually just as realistic..and even if it's not..fictional characters don't always need to be realistic, I think that's optional not mandatory[ especially in fantasy], they really need only to be consistently characterized in-line with their own fictional self). I don't think a character is always automatically any less dimensional or complex just because they aren't necessarily overcoming an internal conflict or internal obstacle; although, YES, we should still see things affecting them on an internal level or driving them from an internal place..not all people are affected internally by external factors by becoming conflicted, some people actually do just steel themselves up and double-down on however they already were, [for better or for worse ]depending on the exact circumstance. You can actually struggle internally, even without being conflicted[ or doubting yourself] specifically. And there are actually plenty of male hero journeys that are more about the physical journey than the internal one too. I think it's kind of just unfortunate timing that people are steering away from those more externally driven types of stories right now much like many people are turning away from fiction commonly in a way kind of having a lighter and/or borderline fairytale-esque quality about it in some ways even when set in the fictionalized real-world, and turning more towards more internally driven stories with a more realistic & or darker/heavier/grittier quality to it, even though externally-driven stories and stories with that lighter or fairytale-esque quality out there specifically with female leads are so incredibly behind the curve in the number of them that exist compared to the plethora of those that exist with male leads in them if we're being completely honest; so I can kind of see why some people may want to realize that kind of story, specifically with female leads, right now...even though other people are at the point where they're just looking for stories or characters that differ from that[ and for them it might not even be about whether they're male or female characters either].
I can't really comment on Captain Marvel specifically yet myself, I still haven't watched it yet, so I don't know if I do or don't personally agree that her depiction was a little shallow or not(but your point about excessive repetition possibly being too heavy-handed or superficial seems totally fair to me)..and it is certainly entirely possible they just tilted too hard into the superficial "SFC"/"girl-power" angle or whatever & such, since plenty of things do....but I do also kinda wonder if maybe they stressed so hard how she wasn't unlikable despite being snarky and assertive or whatever specifically because of the social perception that those traits are a negative thing[ which someone is somehow a bad person for possessing] especially in women? ((Especially since I vaguely recall there was some big social-media stink kicked up at one point about the actress not smiling enough in first-look pics that came out I think during filming.)) Like, maybe comparing her to Tony(who IS actually intended as kind of unlikable and/or a jerk in some ways at some times) is not an accurate or fair comparison, because maybe the whole point was to try and show that unlikable women aren't the only ones who can be assertive or snarky? And, not only that, also the fact that even a female person's assertiveness and/or snarkiness can in fact BE among the very things that is admirable or likable about her specifically as a person/character too? And, perhaps, also that being assertive or snarky is not actually something that's somehow either innately masculine nor inherently not-feminine either? Like, the scene with Thor specifically, I imagine might happen because Thor likes to appear super imposing or see who has the bigger flex to show[ one warrior to another]...but she holds her own and doesn't even flinch, which demonstrates a strength of character that Thor likely respects a great deal. Or, at least, that would probably be my thought about it. And maybe they didn't show the flash of her traumatic past and how not even her own family believed in her so often as they did because they didn't think the audience would understand it the first time, but maybe it was more just to try and show how constantly significant and influential that moment specifically was and still-is..to her, internally? Or something? Maybe it was meant to represent her own self-doubts or insecurities she needed to triumph over caused by that trauma and skepticism she faced, so young, and so close to home for her?..or perhaps represent her motivation to prove herself and never give up in spite of all that[? Rather than representing how literally every man has been sexist toward her?] I don't know. (I mean, obviously I can't say what I really think it was or not myself without actually seeing it, I'm just wondering if that was or wasn't an potential angle that you had exactly considered it through before or not-if that makes sense?🤔 🤷♀️idk) I'll have to pay attention to what I think or not when I do watch it, because interestingly enough I was planning on watching it sometime in the near-ish future; so maybe I'll come back here after I do, if it doesn't take me too long to get to it, if I have any more or different thoughts on it after actually seeing it.
I don't really have a problem with someone who doesn't look physically ripped still being portrayed as physically super-strong, at least not IF there is an in-canon reason why they are un-ordinarily stronger than an equivalently sized or muscled normal-human is, even without them being super-ripped by comparison. But even amongst real-word humans of same or similar size, one person can have drastically different strength levels than the other, although yes of course someone who is totally ripped will almost definitely outmatch someone who is less ripped. But combat isn't always down exclusively to brute-strength or brute-force alone, training and skill also plays a factor, sometimes where and how you hit[ or with what exactly] or how fast you strike matters as much or more than whether or not the other person is physically stronger than you; and it is literally possible sometimes to turn greater strength against itself, especially if you really know what you're doing more than they do. I dunno how well I'm explaining that, but hopefully the gist of what I mean gets across. I mean, combat isn't always like an arm-wrestling contest, except in specific situations where it actually is? If that makes any more sense. (And sometimes it's honestly just dumb-luck how the cards do or don't fall, and who wins or not.) It all depends, really, on a gazillion different factors-but especially when you start throwing in fantastical elements that wouldn't be encountered in reality. Lol
Hi 👋 interesting video! Happy reading to you!! 🎥🦋
I was hoping so much when I first watched Captain Marvel that the emotions Yon-Rogg was suppressing in Carol's training in the early part of the film would end up being her super power. The writers had such a good character arch by making a perceived feminine "vulnerability" in to something amazing. She was still just as stoic throughout and it was disappointing as well as boring.
You spoil us with these videos ☺️
Does a character have to be complex to be strong? That doesn't sound right to me. I can think of numerous examples of characters who are both strong and yet simple in their personalities and motivations at the same time.
my take: As long as the "simple" aspect of their persona is hyper-relatable, and makes sense, simple can be fine... To really love a character comes from being able to see parts of us within them, and vis versa.
tshirt looks dope
For me personally, I think the best examples of using female characters in recent memory as far as superhero media goes is when all the girls got together to beat up stormfront on the boys, or even when Black widow and one of the wakandan female warriors defended Scarlet witch against that alien elf lady in Infinity war 😅
Female powerlifters tend to look “fat” by conventional standards and “bodybuilders” often look so “over muscled” it’s “gross” and “overdone” to the extreme. I think that’s why they’re not the model. Look at Kate Sandwina for an example of a woman who was extremely strong and yet “feminine” and yet society didn’t know what to do with her. Abbye “Pudgy” Stockton melded the two ideals so much better and, as a result, was able to popularize the idea of women being strong and muscular
and also Cis and probably straight too
Absolutely
The Smurfette principle. I like the term. I think I know of a few rock bands that use this principal. Do you think female authors actually write strong female characters? I read the Clan of the Cave Bear series written by Jean M Auel, I think the main character Ayla was probably a good example. She introduces the concept that it was a woman who domesticated the dog and rode the first horse. Most of the Clans in the series were matriarchal, as well. I guess my point is that it was from a female author perspective. Great follow up video.
In my own writing, everytime I create a new male character I think: Why is this character male couldn’t this be a female character. I try to have as many female as male characters. And I totally agree as soon as there are many female characters there is a greater variety in character traits and types of relationships that makes the stories so much better.
The biggest difference between Tony and Carol is the internal struggle. There is nothing to be invested in with Bree Larson's portrayal of Capitan Marvel. She starts out God-Mode and ends God-Mode without anything to learn or overcome.
A bit of a tangent about Carol and Tony. Sorry, haha, I was a little triggered. Cap Marvel is a problem XD
I like the idea of comparing Carol and Tony in the spirit of "women speaking up"
I def agree that there is a bias there.
I can imagine people getting more annoyed by a woman, Carol or otherwise, saying: "Hey, can you please sort your mask?" than if a man, Tony or not, had said that.
HOWEVER
We have to account for the whole story.
You've mentioned that the audience is told to like Carol and not necessarily to like Tony. That's true and important.
I just want to stress that their actions speak louder, here be the examples:
Tony realizes his work led to death of innocents - he feels guilty, he wants to make amends, and he's very sad as he has to do those things, because it's a sad thing to do. His first action scene as Iron Man he barely speaks, u can feel the guilt in his pose too.
Carol realizes her work led to death of innocents - she... um... yells in joy like a kid as she kills hundreds of people who used to be her allies until yesterday.
she... yells... in joy...
also she robbed an innocent biker of his bike and jacket just because he told her to smile. I suppose it can come off as mild harassment, but still, not an excuse to steal someone's ride and clothes.
Now, Tony... he does questionable things too. He has strippers on his plane, serial one night stands, he's a shit friend, god complex, etc.
But it's really important to remember that those things are small when compared to killing.
And they are VERY small when compared to enjoying killing. That's REALLY messed up.
If Tony went butchering everybody in the company who betrayed him, like, killed them, and yelled in joy while doing so... well, you know how this sentence ends haha
Back to the first point to conclude
Yea, the issue of "women speaking up" really is a problem. No one is a saint in this.
BUT
In the context of these films, and in Hollywood in general, many female characters try to get away with doing some very awful stuff, and then tryin to play like "hey, he did it too." Like Carol can say about Tony "hey, he's pretentious too, why don't you hate him like you hate me?"
and the answer would be - Context.
Tony's pretentious, objectifying, bad friend, but he's not a cold blooded killer who takes pleasure in massacre. And he doesn't hurt people just because they speak to him in a way that rubbed him off the wrong way.
Carol did those things. And I argue that the dissonance of being told to like her as she does those things makes her worse than shallow - just plain badly written.
You should watch Arcane on Netflix and let us know your thoughts!
Lol everyone is saying arcane is amazing with the CFC! I want to read the books first so I keep holding off…
I am male from Central Europe, so my perspective could be a little different (as superhero is not my cup of tea, I saw maybe two Marvel films in my entire life), but so many times I saw/read/listened stories were most female characters belonged only to 3 categories: warrior, lover or mother. Of course any women over 40 can be only in the 3rd group and most “space marines/warriors” were skinny supermodels. That’s just poor writing and very boring. I don’t know if this was just lack of imagination from (mostly male) writers or producers/publishers thought that this was what audience/readers want. One of my way to evaluate male writer is how he writes female characters, is there any character who isn’t warrior, lover or mother (I assume that female writers know how to write non-stereotypical female characters by definition), of course there is nothing wrong with including warriors, lovers and mothers, but when there are only characters from these 3 categories, unless they are written especially well, I am usually disappointed.
From recent examples of TV series that do not follow above pattern: The Expanse (TV series, I haven’t got opportunity to read all the books yet) main politician is female in her 60s (played by Iranian-American), marine character is female and you can see that actress have strength to believably play a soldier (played by Samoan New Zealand), female spaceship engineer who is mother that was forced to abandon her son (played by British of Dominica descent) or female space station commander/pirate/political leader (played by Indigenous from Canada) and much more. All these characters are unique and well written, all have agenda, weakness and strengths, acting is strong too.
On the other hand there is animation “Arcane”, from six female characters with most screen time, five are warriors (last one is politician), but every one is unique and extremely well written.
From fantasy books I like how George R.R. Martin writes his female characters in ASOIAF, there are many examples of great characters (Brienne, Sansa, Asha, Catelyn, Cersei, Dany, Alicent, Rhaenyra...). I am halfway through Wheel of Time, so far I mostly enjoyed chapters with female POVs more than male one’s (maybe except how Jordan describes romance). Not every female character in “Witcher” books is my favorite, but Yennefer or Ciri are extremly memorable. Last but not least, I really enjoy reading female characters written by Robert M. Wegner (Polish author, not yet translated to English), most of them are warriors, but like in a case of Arcane, every one is unique and it’s pure fun to follow their stories (female sword-master cut from her roots and family, female cavalry trooper with forbidden magic talent, teenage girl who thinks that she is a pawn, but in fact she is a major chess piece).
It sounds like the English-speaking world should look forward to Wegner being translated. 🇵🇱 ➡️ 🇬🇧
@@thirdspacemaker9141 I hope so. Andrzej Sapkowski isn’t the only writer who knows how to write fantasy/sf in Central Europe, there are many good writers and a few exceptional (Wegner is certainly one of them), I am sure that in the other parts of the World there are even more writers worth to be presented to wider audience by English translation.
I had a mom, 3 aunts and 2 grandmothers. All of them are authority figures. In fact it waa much more relaxed around the male half of my family then the female half. So now i just feel like hollywood is just assuming i have to be taught common sense with SFCs and SFCs have to be exagerated to make me see the point. Kinda like writing words very big and in crayon. Its offensive. The list of strong women in history is long. The list of strong women in the lives of most of your viewers is probably also long. I watch your videos because you have strong and interesting opinions. Hollywood just needs to stop with the lectures and concentrate on good story telling
Also with the comment about aggresive women not being liked. I dont like aggresive or confrontational women because if I act the same to them I am seen as being threatening.
kinda wondering, if 5 years from now, with hollywood etc having this whole SFC fad, we'll then have comments like: omg, she's so cute for a female! xD
Been reading a manhua recently wherein a male protagonist gets basically transportaed into a world with genders swapped. Females being the strong ones and males the weak ones. And I have to say, it's a pretty interesting thought experiment, and it's interesting to see how ridiculous it seems in how the MC is approached at times, simply because he's male. while IRL those things actually happen to women and then it's considered 'normal', or at least not as outlandish. Really makes one think about what it would really take to have society view all genders as equals... >.
Good stuffs
Missed opportunity to coin the word "copykatniss".
We're seeing a similar thing going on with gay characters and representation right now. I was just talking with a friend of mine about how we're now just reactionary turned off by jammed in gay story lines and characters, who are basically just "SFCs with dicks".
Are you a part of the LGBTQ+ community? I’d love to hear more about how you’re feeling gay representation is going downhill!
@@Bookborn Yeah, I think the parallels to SFC are pretty good in the sense that a lot of similar treatments are happening. Although, at this point I'd find a gay Katniss-clone kind of refreshing.
But similar to there not being an interest in giving SFCs real arcs in favor of compiling a collection of marketable "girl power" signals into the shape of a person, we have a very similar thing going on for queer representation. And the ""marketable" kind of representation now revolves around signaling the right kind of "queer theory" values to appeal to a mostly well meaning, but mostly straight-queer female audience.
Of course that's when our representation isn't being pitched to a most pseudo-progressive male audience. Obviously there was a time were, especially in fantasy media, we had some very conventionally attractive and mary-sue-esque lesbians standing in for the whole LGBT cohort! (I also eye-rolled the lesbian scenes in Wheel of Time.)
Of course some people will always find something in good in all of these characters. And my own opinions are probably a little out of the mainstream. But one recent disappointment for me was the straight-washing of the Barron in Dune. We're a community that has always appropriated the villains of classic fiction for our own, especially the Disney ones! So the idea that we can handle being the villain in Dune has always struck me as a demeaning act of coddling. And erasure.
I like a strong female character that can mow a lawn with out complaining. making jokes of course.
One thing I’ve also seen is the degradation of a certain percentage of femininity. If a female character has less and can basically pass as a man, that’s the SFC. If a woman has a combination of both feminine and non- feminine traits they’re tend to be forgotten. BUT if a woman exhibits the utmost feminine values, she is more than likely a villain because, of course, the femme fetale is the ultimate showstopper. It’s the overuse of that archetype I hate, and the fact that it polarizes the creation of female characters and how audiences receive them. It’s either “she’s whiny, and useless” or “she’s an evil bitch”.
"you guyses" < "y'all" 😎
I use yall a lot tbh so sometimes I try to mix it up 🤣
“entire female race” um… what?
Idk you try talking for twenty minutes straight sometimes you say weird things accidentally
You are beautiful.
Yeah I don't like "strong" as the description either I think it should be interesting female character instead
💪♀️... THOR is a GOD and the statement "I like this one" could literally refer to lifeform and not gender. Just a thought though I understand the amount of discrimination that exists. I just don't believe everyone screaming discrimination for everything has a valid point for all their claims. We should as a species develop more equipoise...👍
Nah I didn’t think it was discrimination at all. It’s more that the writers are worried we won’t like Captain Marvel instead of letting the character speak for itself.
@@Bookborn Oeff, just starting the video and we're talking this scene in endgame huh, oh boy. When I saw this in the trailer originally I saw what they were doing right away.
@@mohawkmeteor7189 it’s still weird because people meet other people for the first time, they just happen to click. I find it weird that’s considered “forcing people to like a character” when that’s just oddly realistic.
Thor liking Carol also makes sense. They are both extremely powerful beings that have a habit of solving their problems with direct and overwhelming violence. Thor doesn't say he likes her until he tried to make her flinch, and she didn't, not to mention she has spent the whole scene advocating hard for going to Thanos' home and bringing the fight to him with little time spent planning. I think we all have a tendency to like people who advocate for courses of action we desperately want to follow.
Not to mention, Carol and Thor both have the most 'bro' personalities of the Avengers.
@@sebrussell But come on, the execution isn't there. It's not a joking manner like he does in other manners where he lightheartedly agrees and points like "See she gets this, just charge in."
In the endgame scene, he is full on brooding. Doesn't talk. Doesn't take part. Only comes out for a super dramatic and tense moment of dick measuring after which he gives a deep and intense praise of character based on her not flinching. Like come on, that's not a simple. It's not a superficial little click, he stares into her soul and then approves lol. How hamfisted can it be.
What about the creepy over-sexualisation of heroines? Too often strong and independent woman is reduced to sexually predatory as a proxy for strong, and slutty for independent, as though the ideal of an SFC is somehow a nymphomaniac with daddy issues. WTF?
This is particularly troubling for a father of two young daughters.
Who exactly are these people that don't dislike males that show traits of being unbearable? I would love to meet those people. Sometimes women can just be unbearable, not "overly forward." But, we have reached a point in society where you aren't allowed to say that... it's always "males being males, disliking women, yep." You touched on it with Danvers... the reason the writers felt compelled to tell us so much how "great and awesome and likeable" she is, is because they knew she WAS NOT. But, in the end it was blamed on "guys can't handle a strong female character," which was not the case. They couldn't handle terrible writing and absolutely atrocious acting. The actor didn't sell us a likeable character, and it didn't help that in real life the actor was also arrogant and off-putting.
Please do not confuse a good movie with a movie that's entertaining. Mortal Kombat Annihilation was a wildly entertaining movie. But it was absolutely awful! In every way. Captain Marvel as entertaining as it was....definitely was not a good movie. Every point you made was flawless but the movie certainly was not. Making Nick Fury utterly incompetent and getting his eye scratched out by a cat were 2 big issues right there..making him incompetent for the purpose to make her look good is another scratch by itself. She had 3 villains in this story that were all made to look stupid, none of them were fear inducing in anyway. You had the Trainer white dude who was obsessed with her for some reason that wasnt even explained properly. You had Ronin for some odd reason for like 5 seconds to showcase her powers after she was released from her shackles so to speak. And speaking of, bringing us to our next big bad ...or is it? The one that is impersonating her hero or whatever, the voice that does... well..something bad I guess? Again...not truly explained. Then....it was never to be seen again or even brought up...not even by her to the avengers. Complete silence about a potential threat in the universe that knows where her home planet is. Crazy. And not only that, it was also a rip off of "the great intelligence" which was in a Doctor Who arc, and was done much better I might add. A very clever way to use an enemy that can not be seen. I recommend those episodes to compare and contrast. Anyway...those are just my thoughts. Loved yours as well, glad you liked the movie! It was entertaining! It was just a terrible movie that we are all still able to enjoy ...once atleast.
Edit: Those Doctor Who episodes of the great intelligence also gives us an example of an actually great female lead. Clara was strong, competent, inviting, exciting to watch her next move. She was brilliant as well. All Doctor Who companions were great in their own way but the first introduction of Clara was very memorable. You'll enjoy the watch
I would sum this up by saying movies and tv don't reflect reality or try to. Anyone using those things to learn about the world is going to have troubles.