Incredibly good 👍🏼 !! Thanks for opening up the failed ignition coil module in order to show us the actual transistor whose job it is to switch on and off the coil. That’s excellent teaching techniques and dedication to bring us students the best learning experience anywhere !!!
thank you my friend! so nice the hear. this is what I am striving for. to provide those that cannot attend my class in person to actually feel like they are part of it.
A very nice Sunday morning watch. My 2004 Cavalier is the same. I have yet to experience any ignition issues. But now, I know in-depth how it works. In addition, you've provided a nice detailed tour of the subsystem for me to experience without getting my hands dirty just before breakfast! Here's to another three decades of avoiding retail automotive repair expenses! Thanks for taking the time and putting forth the effort to produce these diagnostic videos. Better educated DIY'ers and professional technicians make the world a better place.
Awesome video and extremely well explained. I have a 2002 Chevy Cavalier with this same 2.2 liter DOHC engine and it started running on 2 cylinders intermittently so it was not easy to track the problem. It was enough to overheat and destroy the catalytic converter due to the misfire and fuel that was not being burned in those two cylinders.
Currently working through your video lectures whilst following your Ebook, couple this with the detailed RUclips videos you produce and your providing a full on education! I've been on quite a few uk training courses and none one even comes closes to how you teach and explain things. Fantastic stuff yet again Paul!
I would like to thank you for this video. Today I struggled to troubleshoot my wife's 2004 alero that has the same motor as this car. After replacing the coil housing, plugs, and boots with no result I was about to give up. Then I found your video and went and purchased a cheap test light and checked the control module and ended up with the same results as you did. I changed it with a new one from autozone and now the car is running perfect so thank you very much.
I was having a serious problem with a P0341 code on the same kind of car. Could not find any videos on how to test the ICM until I seen your video. I really appreciate your teaching. Thank you.
Thank you so much for this vid!!! I went out, took off the module, checked the coil resistance, tested the module pins but used DMM on AC setting... one pin toggled voltage... the other did not... Replaced the module and she purrs like a kitten!!!! Again,,, THANKS SO MUCH!!!
The case studies are priceless as well the information provide in sections two and three. I become a better tech each time I watch a case study as I am sure everyone else does, keepem coming !
no, first thing is the test light wouldn't carry enough current flow. these coils need over 6 amps of current to charge properly. also using a jumper wire is not a good idea either as you will most likely "overcharge" the coil (too much current flow) and it doesn't work anyway. thanks for the comment!
I found out it was my ICM..just like you explained in your video ..the ICM was stopping my car from starting(firing)..thank you so much for making detailed videos..
No problem man, it was my fault for not making that clear enough in the video. I'm glad that it makes sense to you now. It is a pretty cool concept if you think about it. I've only used it a handful of times and each time it has been accurate. But I am sure there is some variable out there that it wouldn't be.
because current flow is the same on the positive or negative side of a circuit. normally you can't see base ckt current because it is occurring the same time as primary current. however if the primary coil is open you can see it as I showed in the case study in my eBook
Great video, as a computer tech for nearly 30 years it was nice to relate my knowledge to how my car (2004 2.2 Saturn Vue) works........or in this case doesn't work. Just drove 110 miles home from work with a 2 cyl misfire (5 hours - lots of hills), changed the ICM before I started hoping that would do the trick but unfortunately not. Now at least I understand how things are supposed to work I can do some testing before jumping in and spending $$$ on parts I don't need to replace.
Best Diagnostic Videos on you-tube. Liked to have seen you jumper the Module to the Coil-Pak, and switch the coil driver signals between 1-4 and 2-3 in order to do the current test on 2-3 with a known good driver transistor from 1-4. Sacrifice the known bad module rather than possibly damaging the 2-3 driver in the new module.
the flat tops are from the ICM current limiting the coils (totally normal). It was there before too. I believe the one shot showed higher amps at one point in time. (around 8) but I am not sure when that occurred. maybe during cranking?
Gr8 vid! Is like I"m in hi-tec autoshop class! 2006 HHR, partial miss only during medium or higher throttle during low rpm accel. p0302, p0340, p0341, p0420. Reset Check Engine light, still misses under load, no light yet this morning. Thnx for posting!
Well done. I don't know much about cars, but I feel like you explained everything well and your students are very lucky to be under your guidance. I hope this is the problem I am having with my 04 Malibu because this seems like a easy fix. Thank you.
Thanks. I watched this video back when you first uploaded it. I used these methods today to diagnosis a Cadillac with the same kind of set up. Ended up being low compression on 2 and 4 (32 psi) the rest were around (160psi) But I ruled out everything else before going there using the methods you used here. I talked to you about a Honda a few months back. Amp on pump were 4.5. If that reminds you. After taking your comments and rethinking it ended up being the cap had very small cracks in it. I just happened to notice it only after it sat all night and tried to start it in the garage before I turned all the lights on. I seen the spark jump the outside of the cap. It threw me off because when I initially looked at it there was spark at the boots down by the plugs. So thanks for that advice and making me rethink my diagnosis.
sorry I didn't answer your first question. The MIL was flashing, but this had no effect on my direction. I started with ignition because it was the easiest to do. Also the exhaust stunk like raw fuel. (forgot to mention that in the video)
:-) I thought about doing that. Here is why I didn't. First the ohm test showed me equal resistance on both coils and second, in my experience, these transistor drivers are protected from over current situations. At least for a little while anyway. Long enough for me to make the final call on the coil. I really felt there was no danger to the driver for this small period of time. I like the way you think though. It would have been cool to do what you suggested.
on this system any misfire can also set a cam code because it is synthesized (created by the ICM based on firing KV of one of the coils) also a severe miss will set a map code. this engine is known for chain guide failure and it will jump time. Is it very noisy in the chain area?
Two questions, one, why does GM draw the coils to look like the camsi grounds two of the coils? Two, if the primary coil is open, how can you see the transister turn on current with the amp probe on the positive coil feed wire? I could see it if you hooked the current probe to the ground side of the primary ckt. As always, thank you very much for tackling these complex subjects so that we all might learn.
Thank you for the film. Can you tell what grease goes inside of the ICM and possibly where do you apply it? In my coil compartment (22:21 to the very right) for the ICM there was a blob of some grease. Is it supposed to be there? And if so what grease is it? For the new ICM AC Delco gives a pack of grease to put on the female connectors, but where exactly? And nothing said to put into the coil compartment. Do you put any grease on the metallic plate of the module?
Thanks for the response! I understand current flow is the same at any point in a series ckt. However, if there is no continuity in that ckt., there can't be flow. That's why there was the missing current ramp. So if there is a break in the primary ckt. inside the coil itself, there should be no current flow on the positive coil wire unless I am missing something. Maybe a small amount of coil induction the scope picks up? As always, thank you for all that you do for all of us.
Again, I appreciate the knowledge you shared through the video & your responses. This was a much better method than I usually implement, which is guessing & throwing new parts at it! You helped save me cash & a lot of frustration. Thanks.
Good video. Most old GM' s have these failures and at one time there was a recall and NTSB alert for cars that would shut off ignition for no reason while you were driving and losing power steering and brakes. The culprit is that same coil controller. It almost got me killed one time with a dump truck tailing close behind.
I tried your suggestions on my 04 Malibu and while it was missing the coil and module weren't to blame. The 2nd and 4th spark plugs were missing but the electode was burned down on both of them. We changed the plugs and it kept missing. We changed the coils and module and nothing changed. The new plugs that I put in fouled immediately and it took a while to figure that out. But we used 2 of the old plugs and it wasn't missing. We changed the plugs with iridium plugs and changed the coil just because the 2 plugs were burnt and the other 2 weren't so. Now it runs like a champ. Onto the struts.
In those cases, I keep an old set of spark plug wires in my arsenal of diagnostic tools. I'll remove the coil housing and run extensions (using the old plug wires) to the spark plugs. This allows me to do cylinder drop testing and visual inspections. Nice that you got it fixed!
any idea why the genisys wouldn't give live misfire counts? there are a number of them in the cumulative misfire counter (LOTS on 3, lots but a few less on 2, a negligible number on 1 and 4) but it does not change. it's very clearly misfiring and plugs 2, 3 are not firing. it's throwing a cam sensor circuit code (did not throw this when i initially scanned it but does now after i had it running a bit), coolant temp below thermostat code, a MAP sensor code, and the P0300.
If neither pin would pulse, we have to worry about the crank sensor input before we condemn the ICM. See if you have injector pulse. Disconnect one injector and do the same test. One side should be hot during cranking and the other is a pulsed ground. To test the pulsed ground wire, connect test light to battery positive. If the light does not pulse, then we definitely need to worry about an input problem and not the ICM.
Hi Paul I have found a Dwell meter can be handy sometimes to check for a pulse on signal wire on primary ignition, I found normal circuit tester flashes to quick and you can see if it's flashing or just starter current dropping the voltage and looks like it might be flashing..Fred.
I bit the bullet today, got a 2.2 Opel Zafira Z22SE, old ecu, 2 pins green and missing on TPS. Never bothered to start the engine with old ecu. ECU replaced, engine was running in 2 cylinders, that is 2 and 3. Schematics pulled, saw 4 wires from ECU to spark coil, I assumed were all ECU spark command for individual cylinders. Scoped them all, 2 were showing what I expect, one had a 5V PWM but wider and the other one nothing (which btw, the wire is not shown in this video diagrams, that is the D connector). Measured to ground the nothing one and had a short to ground in the ECU. So I assumed again and how wrong I was, that: spark module faulty on one cylinder and that ECU is faulty on another cylinder. If I only saw your video before, but not all is lost, replacement ECU is still on the engine and Owner will change the complete ignition coil to see if it works in 3 or 4 cyl. I am now sure it will work in 4. It is so bad when car has more than 1 failure, and you are called to fix that one, and there is another existing fault.
Great explanation. My 05 has eaten 5 or more icms in the last 20k miles. The last two i never got 20 miles a piece. Where would i look for the cause of this. I loose 2cyls every time. So i still have power in since 2 cyls still fire. So now we are looking at one of the two grounds shorting. So in order fo a ground to short it has to be failing to short or it has to short to a hot. Am i thinking right? Where should i look? Just test for ground on the two outside pins? Do i need someone to crank while i test for ground or could i just use an olmes meter and ground to them pins?
Hey paul, I have a 2006 malibu with 2.2 liter engine, it threw a p0300 code and a p0171. My question, is this a weak fuel pump because I checked fuel pressure and the highest it got was 37 OSI of fuel. The car when I step on the throttle all the way it won't pass around 3000 rpm.
Also, yes you are right about the power transistors. You could check them with a DMM on diode check setting or continuity check and look for short circuits. On diode check, if short, would see 0.00 but if good, you'd see somewhere between 0.3 - 0.8. A transistor is simply 2 back - to - back diodes. If you have your leads backward, you'll see it say a very high number or even infinite.... You cannot fix these boards. The silicon chip, what you see, is welded to the board and the board is actually integrated with the silicon and is what we call "substrate" If you go down and buy a transistor, in the big metal package, called a to-3 pack, and cut the hat part off, you will see the same thing as on this board. You will see a silicon chip with 2 wires coming off of it and welded to the substrate, or chassis of the part. The 2 chips could be replaced but you'd have to get them from the manufacturer of the board itself... Not gonna happen. All patented, licensed, top secret, James Bond spy shit!!! :-D If these boards were meant to be repaired, at all, they would have descrete parts. All of those black areas on the board are precision resistors and other stuff, secret stuff. The transistors would be mounted to the board and heat sink NOT welded on. All of the descrete surface mount parts are ceramic capacitors, of very low value to filter noise from coming into the module and from going out. Yep, they were meant for throw-away only. I'm going to try to rescue that sweet little heatsink.... :-D
Does it matter what part of that small adapter (by the pink rubber band) goes up and which one down? The ends are a little bit different on that adapter (ACDelco 19300922 GM Original Equipment Ignition Control Module).
I appreciate the reply. What confused me was that it did run, it ran crappy, but it did run. If neither pin fired, how did it run at all? I'll check the injector, hopefully tomorrow. Thanks, Bob
Just an update, it really didn't make sense to me that the car ran, but neither pin on the icm would fire. So I pulled off the coil pack & the spark plug boots & turned it over to check spark. I got spark out of the outside cylinders, but not the inside. I decided to take another crack at testing the ICM. One pin fired, the other didn't. Replaced the ICM & it runs great again! The pins were gunked up with dielectric grease, thought I made good contact the first time but apparently not. Thanks!
Thank you very much for that. The car will likely be back as the owner was planning to park it for the winter. That will be the first thing I check when it comes back.
If the 2 drivers are not flushing using the test light does it mean that the drivers are bad or the ecm is not sending the pulses to the ignition control module??
I have a 2000 cavalier and I am wondering if the coil packs failing is common.? I have a intermittent misfire situation. When it happens ,no power ,fuel mileage terrible.
Hi Paul, top video once more. Your contributions to youtube are priceless imho. Really like the final "dissection" of the faulty module. Once I fixed an ABS module that had the positive feed wire broken loose from the circuit board. Fix didn't last though. Best option is replacement
I had an 02 Sunfire with an identical engine, identical running problem, could NOT figure it out. Couldn't find any shorts or opens, had good control on both 1 and 2 coils, tried a module, tried a coil, tried a friggin' ECU, nothin'.
This comment is for mike, well ima start off by saying this automotive field is going into a different direction this is not just for the average mechanic anymore with all the newer cars with all the new technology that they're putting into these cars you will have to have some knowledge in how to diagnose a car with lab scope watching data watching signals and etc , also you have to remember he's in a classroom setting so you might have a lot of guys go straight to the problem and fix the problem but scanner Danner actually show you different methods and what you can use to find the issue . Now if a person can't understand the terminologies and the actual pass he takes I can understand why a person doesn't like his message and his lectures but for a person like me that knows where this field is going and want to further my career in this field, I can actually say I appreciate him for his Intel. If you can appreciate what's going on don't want you don't subscribe save a space for a person that appreciates it and wanna learn something.
Sir from what I understand regarding the signal control wire from the 5 volt reference case study they cannot shared the signal control wire but this time the two ignition coil 1and 4, shared the control signal wire and 2 and 3 as well thanks
This is because it only has two coils my friend, so two separate control wires. Coil #1 fires cylinders 1 and 4 at the same time and Coil #2 fires cylinders 2 and 3 at the same time. This is called a "waste spark" ignition system. When one cylinder is at TDC compression, the companion cylinder is at TDC exhaust. So each cylinder get's spark on compression and on exhaust. The exhaust event is not used for anything but a return path for the spark to get back to the coil. It is a "wasted" event.
Hi Paul, I have a friend that Has a 2004 Saturn Ion with the 2.2 that has been running really bad recently and now it doesn't start at all. It presented some codes like: P0300 and a few catalyst efficiency codes. I thought it might be the fuel pump but it has 50 PSI fuel pressure KOEO and cranking. I did your test light test and the control circuits lit up but very very dimly on both circuits. If I could get your wisdom on this issue it would be greatly appreciated.
I worked at the saturn dealer I cant tell you how many times we would get a customer that had a coil, plugs and icm replaced because of a misfire and the coil and/or icm keeps failing sometimes aftermarket shops would bring them in too and you take it apart to see some aftermarket plugs like something you see on tv in it and that was the problem because the resistance was so different then factory. Had a customer that replaced everything like 6 different times, 2 part stores stopped warranting the parts so he bougt them a few times. They come to the shop and ended up knowing from school so when I explained everyting and said dealer parts only the husband starts telling me how both part stores told him the plugs he got were the best and doesnt think this will fix it. The wife said to do it and 3 months later they came for an oil change and it was all good.
When I saw the ramp I thought it was the coil, but always scanner danner one step forward to think of other possibility of problem,, Thank for the good video...Paul..
Check the cam cover to the cylinder head braided ground strap especially on an '02 Ecotec. Loose, corroded damaged or missing it will cause the ignition system to instead ground through the ICM connector ground wire which is too small for the load when hot. So you can end up with no to a mediocre ground for the ignition system. Not sure why the ignition was wired this way.
okay. I see what you're saying and I think this is where you and I are on different pages. I was not on coil positive but was on module positive. so you see, any current flow entering the model I will see it. including base circuit current for a transistor. if I was actually on coil positive itself which is not possible on this car then you would be correct
Im number 99,532nd subscriber :) loved how informational this video is. Im trying to diagnose a no compression issue with my car right now. This helps immensely
Good morning ScannerDanner 🙏 🌄 Take care 👍 Have a great day ScannerDanner 👍 God bless Great tutorial thanks 👍 From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧
What is the primary side resistance of the coils? I am reading .6 ohms from the common to each coil. I have this exact issue but not sure if the ignition control module or the engine control computer is not sending one of the 2 pulses to the control module. I get a flash on one pin of the module while cranking but not on the other. Common hot is present and plugs 1 & 4 were wet, and plugs 2 and 3 were not.
I have a 2004 saturn vue 2.2L the problem is that no code is register and when it gets to a certain temperature it shots off the fuel pomp and it wont turn on again.What it could be the problem. Thanks
we got another one of these godforsaken 2.2 ecotec cyl 2/3 misfires in! awesome. the two middle cylinders are deadsville. when it's actually running there's an awful racket from the front cover area...should do a compression test first before i dig into the electrical bits. it and i are going to do battle tomorrow and i have this video to help, thanks Paul!
how do you hook up a amp clamp and voltage leads? my snapon low amp clamp is fixed so i cannot add ground leads to my scope when my amp clamp is plugged in?
HELP! My engine turns over, but won't start. I checked for fuel and that is fine. I attempted to run the tests outlined in this video using a Multimeter, and test light (I don't have the diagnostic scope) I replaced the Ignition Control Module, so it's brand new. When I test the output pins on the Ignition control module, I get the Solid (+) on the common pin. But when I try the (-) driver pins on either side, my test light will not flash when the key is rotated to start. Since I replaced the Ignition control module, I suspect that I have a problem in the connector, or one of the wires that go into the Control Module. Do you have a Diagram of the connector, and wires going into the Ignition control module? What tests are available to determine which wire may be the culprit. Looks like 5 wires go in, and I assume one is a ground.
Hey ScannerDanner! Great videos,learned a lot, it specially from ''understanding long and short fuel trim'' video. I'm learning to be an automotive technician, really enjoy working on cars. I wanted ask you some questions. What scanner tool you would recommend, for performing fast and defective diagnosing? Of course, I can't afford equipment like you have, but I am looking at AutoLink AL619. Do you recommend buying one? AND,is USB digital 2CH oscilloscope for around 100$ any good? Tnx you ;)
I am with you on the uselessness of most ohms test by the way. Most of my test leads read from .1-.4ohms when I short them together. This seems to leave most low-ohms test in a grey area. I am going to do some ringer test experiments on ignition coils using some of my electronic servicing test equipment. That should be fun. I reference your Book quite often, and look forward to your new case studies.
Thanks so much! I knew there had to be a way to test a module on that Ecotec engine. 2001 Saturn L200 2.2L Ecotech no start, fuel pressure within specs, scanner sees RPM signal from Crank Sensor but still no spark.
ScannerDanner, 1st off thanks a million for the best diagnostic video on the net. My question is DOES GM MOST GM DEALERS HAVE THAT DIAGNOSTIC HARNESS U MENTIONED?? I changed plugs n dont wanna waste $$ replacing working parts..
staticnate refresh my memory. are you talking about running temporary spark plug wires from the coil housing to the plugs? just use any set of plug wires
Hello, first best wishes for this new year and thank you, you make a great job, I am looking for help, well I put myself in trouble => I think I overfilled my engine with oil, It is a "old baby", a Chevrolet S10 1987 (Durango) 2.8L V6, when I tried to start, it was ok but after maybe 20 s the engine stop, I drained the oil, now it cranks but doesn't start and no spark, with a friend we checked and changed plugs for new ones, please have you any idea
Would it be ok to check the coil if connect B+ to coil B+ pin on the coil directly(bypass the iignition module, and test light to ground and touch on/off on the 1/4 pin or 2/3 pin and see if the spark there ?
2006 HHR with the 2.2 ecotec. Driving, engine lays over, no power, reduced power in dash. Now still runs, however, very rough idle. bogs under med-heavy throttle. Factory plugs at 190,000 km. I decided it needs those anyway, so lets start there. Change plugs, no go. test ICM, good power supply and ground control. 1 code in storage, p2101. I checked for any obvious wiring rubbage and didn't find any. Checked under the fuse box for any fuckery, didn't see any. I also noticed with a data log some strange behavior with the throttle postion. at idle, it's showing 33%. To the floor, it only goes to 88%. With some advice from you guys, we decided to change the throttle body. Replaced throttle body. Did not fix issue. however, the code disappeared. Instead I got a random misfire code. As I said, changed the plugs and tested the ICM. Double checked that, tested ICM control side. Also tested coils with air gap test to test light. all seems good there. What I noticed however, was the o2 temp. After only running for maybe 2 minutes, it was at 1100*. I unpluged the o2, no change. I removed the o2 to check for plugged cat, no change. I did pull the plugs, and noticed that the engine appears to be running quite rich. Is the possible the ICM is faulty, as in the way the cam signal side of things work within it, despite testing good for ground controls
Out if curiosity, if your test light was to flicker with the coil unplugged but stays solid with the coil plugged in while running, could that be a cause of a possibly bad coil in a waste spark setup?
that icm is a big GM boo boo Ive replaced more than i can count i like the control squarewave too amp ramp comparison very useful . I've learned tremendously from these videos and i use the scope way more i grab it for everything now thanks alot man
Great video. I plan to use it to try to diagnose some of my misfire issues. Could you provide a list of the tools you used for the diagnosis. I saw that you used a Light Tester, and Multimeter. I'm assuming you used an OBD2 reader to see that the 2 cylinders were misfiring. Which tools did you use to see the ramps and square waves?
Hi mate haveing some fault codes come up on my scanner EmL light on gone in to limp mode,codes are p0103/p1062/p1031 cleaned the maf out,still no joy,I cleared the codes but still came up with them,should just buy a new maf sensor and would this clear the rest of the codes,I have a bmw1.6ti compact 2002,cheers mate,hope you get back to me.
Hi I have the exact same car and year as this video..I have a question..my car cranks but won't start..my fuel pump is on and running,my battery is good and my spark plugs are new..could a ignition control module not let the car start ? like I said it cranks strong but doesn't start at all..also we tryed spraying starting fluid and got nothing as well..please help..
Fuel pump is running during cranking or only when you first turn the key on? This is important in identifying whether or not your suspected no spark problem is from a crank sensor or not. We have to address this first. Another way is to tell me if you have injector pulse or not. Can you post this question on my forum if you need more help? Others will jump in and help too.
![No Spark Diagnostics "Control Testing" Part 1 [a ScannerDanner Premium video]](/img/1.gif)
Wish I could attend your school...idk ur if students are aware of how valuable ur information is! Your training the next generation of technicians!
Thanks so much! You can join my classes online if you're interested.
www.scannerdanner.com/join-scannerdanner-premium.html
Hope to see you there
You and Eric are still to this day the best 2 guys on this platform.
Incredibly good 👍🏼 !! Thanks for opening up the failed ignition coil module in order to show us the actual transistor whose job it is to switch on and off the coil. That’s excellent teaching techniques and dedication to bring us students the best learning experience anywhere !!!
Thank you so much!
You are a real 2013 mechanic. All other mechanics are just part changers. You actually know what is wrong and how it should be.
thank you my friend! so nice the hear. this is what I am striving for. to provide those that cannot attend my class in person to actually feel like they are part of it.
A very nice Sunday morning watch. My 2004 Cavalier is the same. I have yet to experience any ignition issues. But now, I know in-depth how it works. In addition, you've provided a nice detailed tour of the subsystem for me to experience without getting my hands dirty just before breakfast!
Here's to another three decades of avoiding retail automotive repair expenses!
Thanks for taking the time and putting forth the effort to produce these diagnostic videos. Better educated DIY'ers and professional technicians make the world a better place.
Awesome video and extremely well explained. I have a 2002 Chevy Cavalier with this same 2.2 liter DOHC engine and it started running on 2 cylinders intermittently so it was not easy to track the problem. It was enough to overheat and destroy the catalytic converter due to the misfire and fuel that was not being burned in those two cylinders.
Currently working through your video lectures whilst following your Ebook, couple this with the detailed RUclips videos you produce and your providing a full on education! I've been on quite a few uk training courses and none one even comes closes to how you teach and explain things. Fantastic stuff yet again Paul!
I would like to thank you for this video. Today I struggled to troubleshoot my wife's 2004 alero that has the same motor as this car. After replacing the coil housing, plugs, and boots with no result I was about to give up. Then I found your video and went and purchased a cheap test light and checked the control module and ended up with the same results as you did. I changed it with a new one from autozone and now the car is running perfect so thank you very much.
I was having a serious problem with a P0341 code on the same kind of car. Could not find any videos on how to test the ICM until I seen your video. I really appreciate your teaching. Thank you.
Thank you so much for this vid!!! I went out, took off the module, checked the coil resistance, tested the module pins but used DMM on AC setting... one pin toggled voltage... the other did not... Replaced the module and she purrs like a kitten!!!! Again,,, THANKS SO MUCH!!!
The case studies are priceless as well the information provide in sections two and three. I become a better tech each time I watch a case study as I am sure everyone else does, keepem coming !
no, first thing is the test light wouldn't carry enough current flow. these coils need over 6 amps of current to charge properly. also using a jumper wire is not a good idea either as you will most likely "overcharge" the coil (too much current flow) and it doesn't work anyway.
thanks for the comment!
I found out it was my ICM..just like you explained in your video ..the ICM was stopping my car from starting(firing)..thank you so much for making detailed videos..
Henry Yiulin cool man, glad it helped you!
No problem man, it was my fault for not making that clear enough in the video.
I'm glad that it makes sense to you now. It is a pretty cool concept if you think about it. I've only used it a handful of times and each time it has been accurate. But I am sure there is some variable out there that it wouldn't be.
because current flow is the same on the positive or negative side of a circuit. normally you can't see base ckt current because it is occurring the same time as primary current. however if the primary coil is open you can see it as I showed in the case study in my eBook
Great video, as a computer tech for nearly 30 years it was nice to relate my knowledge to how my car (2004 2.2 Saturn Vue) works........or in this case doesn't work.
Just drove 110 miles home from work with a 2 cyl misfire (5 hours - lots of hills), changed the ICM before I started hoping that would do the trick but unfortunately not. Now at least I understand how things are supposed to work I can do some testing before jumping in and spending $$$ on parts I don't need to replace.
awesome glad you fixed it. this "control" testing with a test light is useful and many different designs. and now you know it!
Best Diagnostic Videos on you-tube.
Liked to have seen you jumper the Module to the Coil-Pak,
and switch the coil driver signals between 1-4 and 2-3 in
order to do the current test on 2-3 with a known good driver
transistor from 1-4.
Sacrifice the known bad module rather than possibly damaging
the 2-3 driver in the new module.
the flat tops are from the ICM current limiting the coils (totally normal). It was there before too.
I believe the one shot showed higher amps at one point in time. (around 8) but I am not sure when that occurred. maybe during cranking?
Gr8 vid! Is like I"m in hi-tec autoshop class! 2006 HHR, partial miss only during medium or higher throttle during low rpm accel. p0302, p0340, p0341, p0420. Reset Check Engine light, still misses under load, no light yet this morning. Thnx for posting!
Well done. I don't know much about cars, but I feel like you explained everything well and your students are very lucky to be under your guidance. I hope this is the problem I am having with my 04 Malibu because this seems like a easy fix. Thank you.
Such a good video , makes it all so clear because I like definitive test .
Thanks. I watched this video back when you first uploaded it. I used these methods today to diagnosis a Cadillac with the same kind of set up. Ended up being low compression on 2 and 4 (32 psi) the rest were around (160psi)
But I ruled out everything else before going there using the methods you used here.
I talked to you about a Honda a few months back. Amp on pump were 4.5. If that reminds you. After taking your comments and rethinking it ended up being the cap had very small cracks in it. I just happened to notice it only after it sat all night and tried to start it in the garage before I turned all the lights on. I seen the spark jump the outside of the cap.
It threw me off because when I initially looked at it there was spark at the boots down by the plugs.
So thanks for that advice and making me rethink my diagnosis.
sorry I didn't answer your first question. The MIL was flashing, but this had no effect on my direction. I started with ignition because it was the easiest to do. Also the exhaust stunk like raw fuel. (forgot to mention that in the video)
:-) I thought about doing that. Here is why I didn't. First the ohm test showed me equal resistance on both coils and second, in my experience, these transistor drivers are protected from over current situations. At least for a little while anyway. Long enough for me to make the final call on the coil. I really felt there was no danger to the driver for this small period of time.
I like the way you think though. It would have been cool to do what you suggested.
on this system any misfire can also set a cam code because it is synthesized (created by the ICM based on firing KV of one of the coils)
also a severe miss will set a map code. this engine is known for chain guide failure and it will jump time. Is it very noisy in the chain area?
What an awesome detailed video !!! God bless you Sir . Watching from Canada,
Two questions, one, why does GM draw the coils to look like the camsi grounds two of the coils? Two, if the primary coil is open, how can you see the transister turn on current with the amp probe on the positive coil feed wire? I could see it if you hooked the current probe to the ground side of the primary ckt. As always, thank you very much for tackling these complex subjects so that we all might learn.
Thank you for the film. Can you tell what grease goes inside of the ICM and possibly where do you apply it? In my coil compartment (22:21 to the very right) for the ICM there was a blob of some grease. Is it supposed to be there? And if so what grease is it? For the new ICM AC Delco gives a pack of grease to put on the female connectors, but where exactly? And nothing said to put into the coil compartment. Do you put any grease on the metallic plate of the module?
Thanks for the response! I understand current flow is the same at any point in a series ckt. However, if there is no continuity in that ckt., there can't be flow. That's why there was the missing current ramp. So if there is a break in the primary ckt. inside the coil itself, there should be no current flow on the positive coil wire unless I am missing something. Maybe a small amount of coil induction the scope picks up? As always, thank you for all that you do for all of us.
Again, I appreciate the knowledge you shared through the video & your responses. This was a much better method than I usually implement, which is guessing & throwing new parts at it! You helped save me cash & a lot of frustration. Thanks.
Good video. Most old GM' s have these failures and at one time there was a recall and NTSB alert for cars that would shut off ignition for no reason while you were driving and losing power steering and brakes. The culprit is that same coil controller. It almost got me killed one time with a dump
truck tailing close behind.
I tried your suggestions on my 04 Malibu and while it was missing the coil and module weren't to blame. The 2nd and 4th spark plugs were missing but the electode was burned down on both of them. We changed the plugs and it kept missing. We changed the coils and module and nothing changed. The new plugs that I put in fouled immediately and it took a while to figure that out. But we used 2 of the old plugs and it wasn't missing. We changed the plugs with iridium plugs and changed the coil just because the 2 plugs were burnt and the other 2 weren't so. Now it runs like a champ. Onto the struts.
In those cases, I keep an old set of spark plug wires in my arsenal of diagnostic tools. I'll remove the coil housing and run extensions (using the old plug wires) to the spark plugs. This allows me to do cylinder drop testing and visual inspections.
Nice that you got it fixed!
any idea why the genisys wouldn't give live misfire counts? there are a number of them in the cumulative misfire counter (LOTS on 3, lots but a few less on 2, a negligible number on 1 and 4) but it does not change. it's very clearly misfiring and plugs 2, 3 are not firing.
it's throwing a cam sensor circuit code (did not throw this when i initially scanned it but does now after i had it running a bit), coolant temp below thermostat code, a MAP sensor code, and the P0300.
If neither pin would pulse, we have to worry about the crank sensor input before we condemn the ICM.
See if you have injector pulse. Disconnect one injector and do the same test. One side should be hot during cranking and the other is a pulsed ground. To test the pulsed ground wire, connect test light to battery positive.
If the light does not pulse, then we definitely need to worry about an input problem and not the ICM.
Hi Paul I have found a Dwell meter can be handy sometimes to check for a pulse on signal wire on primary ignition, I found normal circuit tester flashes to quick and you can see if it's flashing or just starter current dropping the voltage and looks like it might be flashing..Fred.
That's where I went wrong. The module positive! I appreciate you clearing that up for me. It makes perfect sense now! thanks!
I bit the bullet today, got a 2.2 Opel Zafira Z22SE, old ecu, 2 pins green and missing on TPS. Never bothered to start the engine with old ecu. ECU replaced, engine was running in 2 cylinders, that is 2 and 3. Schematics pulled, saw 4 wires from ECU to spark coil, I assumed were all ECU spark command for individual cylinders. Scoped them all, 2 were showing what I expect, one had a 5V PWM but wider and the other one nothing (which btw, the wire is not shown in this video diagrams, that is the D connector). Measured to ground the nothing one and had a short to ground in the ECU. So I assumed again and how wrong I was, that: spark module faulty on one cylinder and that ECU is faulty on another cylinder. If I only saw your video before, but not all is lost, replacement ECU is still on the engine and Owner will change the complete ignition coil to see if it works in 3 or 4 cyl. I am now sure it will work in 4. It is so bad when car has more than 1 failure, and you are called to fix that one, and there is another existing fault.
I don't but you can be sure when I see one I will film it. Thanks!
Great explanation. My 05 has eaten 5 or more icms in the last 20k miles. The last two i never got 20 miles a piece. Where would i look for the cause of this. I loose 2cyls every time. So i still have power in since 2 cyls still fire. So now we are looking at one of the two grounds shorting. So in order fo a ground to short it has to be failing to short or it has to short to a hot. Am i thinking right? Where should i look? Just test for ground on the two outside pins? Do i need someone to crank while i test for ground or could i just use an olmes meter and ground to them pins?
Junk parts these days. I would be also changing the coils too and buying good ones, not internet specials (not that you're doing that)
Hey paul, I have a 2006 malibu with 2.2 liter engine, it threw a p0300 code and a p0171. My question, is this a weak fuel pump because I checked fuel pressure and the highest it got was 37 OSI of fuel. The car when I step on the throttle all the way it won't pass around 3000 rpm.
Also, yes you are right about the power transistors. You could check them with a DMM on diode check setting or continuity check and look for short circuits. On diode check, if short, would see 0.00 but if good, you'd see somewhere between 0.3 - 0.8. A transistor is simply 2 back - to - back diodes. If you have your leads backward, you'll see it say a very high number or even infinite.... You cannot fix these boards. The silicon chip, what you see, is welded to the board and the board is actually integrated with the silicon and is what we call "substrate" If you go down and buy a transistor, in the big metal package, called a to-3 pack, and cut the hat part off, you will see the same thing as on this board. You will see a silicon chip with 2 wires coming off of it and welded to the substrate, or chassis of the part. The 2 chips could be replaced but you'd have to get them from the manufacturer of the board itself... Not gonna happen. All patented, licensed, top secret, James Bond spy shit!!! :-D If these boards were meant to be repaired, at all, they would have descrete parts. All of those black areas on the board are precision resistors and other stuff, secret stuff. The transistors would be mounted to the board and heat sink NOT welded on. All of the descrete surface mount parts are ceramic capacitors, of very low value to filter noise from coming into the module and from going out. Yep, they were meant for throw-away only. I'm going to try to rescue that sweet little heatsink.... :-D
Does it matter what part of that small adapter (by the pink rubber band) goes up and which one
down? The ends are a little bit different on that adapter (ACDelco 19300922 GM Original Equipment Ignition Control Module).
I got a 2003 Saturn Ion I was wondering if I put rims on it would affect the transmission?
I appreciate the reply. What confused me was that it did run, it ran crappy, but it did run. If neither pin fired, how did it run at all? I'll check the injector, hopefully tomorrow. Thanks, Bob
Will the cam signal pin flash if the ICM is good? I got an ICM ground pins flash good car still won't start.
Thanks so much, man! A bit detailed for my needs but it told me exactly what I needed to know to fix my girlfriend's Vue. Keep up the great work!
Amazing piece of knowledge and effort. A very unique skill so a big thumbs up for such a great research
Thank you!
Just an update, it really didn't make sense to me that the car ran, but neither pin on the icm would fire. So I pulled off the coil pack & the spark plug boots & turned it over to check spark. I got spark out of the outside cylinders, but not the inside. I decided to take another crack at testing the ICM. One pin fired, the other didn't. Replaced the ICM & it runs great again! The pins were gunked up with dielectric grease, thought I made good contact the first time but apparently not. Thanks!
Hey thanks! I haven't advertised that, how did you find out?
Thank you very much for that. The car will likely be back as the owner was planning to park it for the winter. That will be the first thing I check when it comes back.
If the 2 drivers are not flushing using the test light does it mean that the drivers are bad or the ecm is not sending the pulses to the ignition control module??
I have a 2000 cavalier and I am wondering if the coil packs failing is common.? I have a intermittent misfire situation. When it happens ,no power ,fuel mileage terrible.
another top video. things just seem to get simpler after one of these tutorials. thanks a lot.
Hi Paul, top video once more. Your contributions to youtube are priceless imho. Really like the final "dissection" of the faulty module.
Once I fixed an ABS module that had the positive feed wire broken loose from the circuit board. Fix didn't last though. Best option is replacement
I had an 02 Sunfire with an identical engine, identical running problem, could NOT figure it out. Couldn't find any shorts or opens, had good control on both 1 and 2 coils, tried a module, tried a coil, tried a friggin' ECU, nothin'.
This comment is for mike, well ima start off by saying this automotive field is going into a different direction this is not just for the average mechanic anymore with all the newer cars with all the new technology that they're putting into these cars you will have to have some knowledge in how to diagnose a car with lab scope watching data watching signals and etc , also you have to remember he's in a classroom setting so you might have a lot of guys go straight to the problem and fix the problem but scanner Danner actually show you different methods and what you can use to find the issue . Now if a person can't understand the terminologies and the actual pass he takes I can understand why a person doesn't like his message and his lectures but for a person like me that knows where this field is going and want to further my career in this field, I can actually say I appreciate him for his Intel. If you can appreciate what's going on don't want you don't subscribe save a space for a person that appreciates it and wanna learn something.
Sir from what I understand regarding the signal control wire from the 5 volt reference case study they cannot shared the signal control wire but this time the two ignition coil 1and 4, shared the control signal wire and 2 and 3 as well thanks
This is because it only has two coils my friend, so two separate control wires. Coil #1 fires cylinders 1 and 4 at the same time and Coil #2 fires cylinders 2 and 3 at the same time. This is called a "waste spark" ignition system. When one cylinder is at TDC compression, the companion cylinder is at TDC exhaust. So each cylinder get's spark on compression and on exhaust. The exhaust event is not used for anything but a return path for the spark to get back to the coil. It is a "wasted" event.
Hi Paul, I have a friend that Has a 2004 Saturn Ion with the 2.2 that has been running really bad recently and now it doesn't start at all. It presented some codes like: P0300 and a few catalyst efficiency codes. I thought it might be the fuel pump but it has 50 PSI fuel pressure KOEO and cranking. I did your test light test and the control circuits lit up but very very dimly on both circuits. If I could get your wisdom on this issue it would be greatly appreciated.
I worked at the saturn dealer I cant tell you how many times we would get a customer that had a coil, plugs and icm replaced because of a misfire and the coil and/or icm keeps failing sometimes aftermarket shops would bring them in too and you take it apart to see some aftermarket plugs like something you see on tv in it and that was the problem because the resistance was so different then factory. Had a customer that replaced everything like 6 different times, 2 part stores stopped warranting the parts so he bougt them a few times. They come to the shop and ended up knowing from school so when I explained everyting and said dealer parts only the husband starts telling me how both part stores told him the plugs he got were the best and doesnt think this will fix it. The wife said to do it and 3 months later they came for an oil change and it was all good.
What about if you get no pulses on pins to either side of the control pin. mine is a 2006 chevy cobalt 2,2l. Plugs look good and coil ohm'ed out ok.
When I saw the ramp I thought it was the coil, but always scanner danner one step forward to think of other possibility of problem,, Thank for the good video...Paul..
Check the cam cover to the cylinder head braided ground strap especially on an '02 Ecotec. Loose, corroded damaged or missing it will cause the ignition system to instead ground through the ICM connector ground wire which is too small for the load when hot. So you can end up with no to a mediocre ground for the ignition system. Not sure why the ignition was wired this way.
what is the fuel psi under load or when you snap the throttle, does it drop?
Paul how much you charged to customer by the diagnosis and how much would be the diagnosis and repair
Great video.I just do not understand that why GM does not hire you to write them proper flow charts for all of their diagnostics.
Thank you again
What scanner/scope do I need in order to thoroughly test ignition system? Thank you!
okay. I see what you're saying and I think this is where you and I are on different pages. I was not on coil positive but was on module positive. so you see, any current flow entering the model I will see it. including base circuit current for a transistor.
if I was actually on coil positive itself which is not possible on this car then you would be correct
I have the aame car and both pins are not firing. So I put a new module in and I still have nothing. Any suggestions?
Great test and fix. Couldn't you have put jumpers in between the module and the coil pack?
How common are these problems with the Saturn ion vue and lseries cars
Im number 99,532nd subscriber :) loved how informational this video is. Im trying to diagnose a no compression issue with my car right now. This helps immensely
have you seen this video? ruclips.net/video/pOghpmVhVng/видео.html
The first part of it you can use your ear to hear a compression problem. Thanks!
I've changed all of that n fuel pump still random misfire any idea,s?
jumped timing?
Seems like when I shut it off for a few minutes to go in to a store then I restart then it,s usually doing it
No run,s fine after
Best diagnostic case studies on RUclips. Great video as always.
Good morning ScannerDanner 🙏 🌄 Take care 👍 Have a great day ScannerDanner 👍 God bless
Great tutorial thanks 👍
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧
What is the primary side resistance of the coils? I am reading .6 ohms from the common to each coil. I have this exact issue but not sure if the ignition control module or the engine control computer is not sending one of the 2 pulses to the control module. I get a flash on one pin of the module while cranking but not on the other. Common hot is present and plugs 1 & 4 were wet, and plugs 2 and 3 were not.
What would be the next step. If neither of the two transistor negatives on the ignition module are lighting up
I have a 2004 saturn vue 2.2L the problem is that no code is register and when it gets to a certain temperature it shots off the fuel pomp and it wont turn on again.What it could be the problem. Thanks
we got another one of these godforsaken 2.2 ecotec cyl 2/3 misfires in! awesome. the two middle cylinders are deadsville. when it's actually running there's an awful racket from the front cover area...should do a compression test first before i dig into the electrical bits.
it and i are going to do battle tomorrow and i have this video to help, thanks Paul!
how do you hook up a amp clamp and voltage leads? my snapon low amp clamp is fixed so i cannot add ground leads to my scope when my amp clamp is plugged in?
use the yellow Snap-on lead with the 2 ground terminals
HELP! My engine turns over, but won't start. I checked for fuel and that is fine. I attempted to run the tests outlined in this video using a Multimeter, and test light (I don't have the diagnostic scope) I replaced the Ignition Control Module, so it's brand new.
When I test the output pins on the Ignition control module, I get the Solid (+) on the common pin. But when I try the (-) driver pins on either side, my test light will not flash when the key is rotated to start. Since I replaced the Ignition control module, I suspect that I have a problem in the connector, or one of the wires that go into the Control Module.
Do you have a Diagram of the connector, and wires going into the Ignition control module? What tests are available to determine which wire may be the culprit. Looks like 5 wires go in, and I assume one is a ground.
Hey ScannerDanner! Great videos,learned a lot, it specially from ''understanding long and short fuel trim'' video. I'm learning to be an automotive technician, really enjoy working on cars. I wanted ask you some questions. What scanner tool you would recommend, for performing fast and defective diagnosing? Of course, I can't afford equipment like you have, but I am looking at AutoLink AL619. Do you recommend buying one? AND,is USB digital 2CH oscilloscope for around 100$ any good?
Tnx you ;)
+ScannerDanner. Do you happen to know of a good website or place to get wiring diagrams for a wide range of vehicles ?
BBB industries provides some technical information.
I am with you on the uselessness of most ohms test by the way.
Most of my test leads read from .1-.4ohms when I short them together. This seems to leave most low-ohms test in a grey area.
I am going to do some ringer test experiments on ignition coils using some of my electronic servicing test equipment. That should be fun.
I reference your Book quite often, and look forward to your new case studies.
Thanks so much! I knew there had to be a way to test a module on that Ecotec engine. 2001 Saturn L200 2.2L Ecotech no start, fuel pressure within specs, scanner sees RPM signal from Crank Sensor but still no spark.
what did you do to fix
Hi. Can a bad steering angle sensor cause a car not to start
Congratulations on your 2012 APSCU) annual achievement award .
ScannerDanner, 1st off thanks a million for the best diagnostic video on the net. My question is DOES GM MOST GM DEALERS HAVE THAT DIAGNOSTIC HARNESS U MENTIONED?? I changed plugs n dont wanna waste $$ replacing working parts..
staticnate refresh my memory. are you talking about running temporary spark plug wires from the coil housing to the plugs? just use any set of plug wires
Hello, first best wishes for this new year and thank you, you make a great job, I am looking for help, well I put myself in trouble => I think I overfilled my engine with oil, It is a "old baby", a Chevrolet S10 1987 (Durango) 2.8L V6, when I tried to start, it was ok but after maybe 20 s the engine stop, I drained the oil, now it cranks but doesn't start and no spark, with a friend we checked and changed plugs for new ones, please have you any idea
Would it be ok to check the coil if connect B+ to coil B+ pin on the coil directly(bypass the iignition module, and test light to ground and touch on/off on the 1/4 pin or 2/3 pin and see if the spark there ?
Mitchell On Demand. The also have a version for the DIYer it's called Mitchell 1
2006 HHR with the 2.2 ecotec. Driving, engine lays over, no power, reduced power in dash. Now still runs, however, very rough idle. bogs under med-heavy throttle.
Factory plugs at 190,000 km. I decided it needs those anyway, so lets start there. Change plugs, no go. test ICM, good power supply and ground control. 1 code in storage, p2101. I checked for any obvious wiring rubbage and didn't find any. Checked under the fuse box for any fuckery, didn't see any.
I also noticed with a data log some strange behavior with the throttle postion. at idle, it's showing 33%. To the floor, it only goes to 88%.
With some advice from you guys, we decided to change the throttle body.
Replaced throttle body. Did not fix issue. however, the code disappeared. Instead I got a random misfire code.
As I said, changed the plugs and tested the ICM. Double checked that, tested ICM control side. Also tested coils with air gap test to test light. all seems good there.
What I noticed however, was the o2 temp. After only running for maybe 2 minutes, it was at 1100*. I unpluged the o2, no change. I removed the o2 to check for plugged cat, no change.
I did pull the plugs, and noticed that the engine appears to be running quite rich.
Is the possible the ICM is faulty, as in the way the cam signal side of things work within it, despite testing good for ground controls
Out if curiosity, if your test light was to flicker with the coil unplugged but stays solid with the coil plugged in while running, could that be a cause of a possibly bad coil in a waste spark setup?
I need more info on what you are testing and why
that icm is a big GM boo boo Ive replaced more than i can count i like the control squarewave too amp ramp comparison very useful . I've learned tremendously from these videos and i use the scope way more i grab it for everything now thanks alot man
Great video. I plan to use it to try to diagnose some of my misfire issues. Could you provide a list of the tools you used for the diagnosis. I saw that you used a Light Tester, and Multimeter. I'm assuming you used an OBD2 reader to see that the 2 cylinders were misfiring. Which tools did you use to see the ramps and square waves?
Hi mate haveing some fault codes come up on my scanner EmL light on gone in to limp mode,codes are p0103/p1062/p1031 cleaned the maf out,still no joy,I cleared the codes but still came up with them,should just buy a new maf sensor and would this clear the rest of the codes,I have a bmw1.6ti compact 2002,cheers mate,hope you get back to me.
good video, always like to see the detail that you show about things.
Hi I have the exact same car and year as this video..I have a question..my car cranks but won't start..my fuel pump is on and running,my battery is good and my spark plugs are new..could a ignition control module not let the car start ? like I said it cranks strong but doesn't start at all..also we tryed spraying starting fluid and got nothing as well..please help..
Fuel pump is running during cranking or only when you first turn the key on? This is important in identifying whether or not your suspected no spark problem is from a crank sensor or not. We have to address this first. Another way is to tell me if you have injector pulse or not. Can you post this question on my forum if you need more help? Others will jump in and help too.
ScannerDanner
not sure. wish the manufacturers would give us more of that type of information.
thanks for the tip