Operation and testing coil over plug ignition (4 wire) - Toyota/Lexus
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2024
- This case study is perfect for anyone interested in the working details of Toyota/Lexus coil over plug ignition system, and the very similar three-wire designs used by many other manufacturers. We spend a lot of time with the Pico on this one, but don’t forget the other basic checks I discuss, including the spark output, power balance and moving a suspected bad coil to another cylinder.
Engine Performance Diagnostics chapter 22
Symptoms
- check engine light (P0304)
- misfire
Fix
- replace the #4 ignition coil
Tests shown
- how to perform a cylinder drop test (power balance test) to identify a misfiring cylinder
- how to perform a relative compression test
- how to perform a spark output check on a coil over plug ignition coil
- understanding three and four-wire coil circuit design and operation
- understanding Toyota IGT and IGF circuits and related trouble codes
- how to scope test a COP coil using voltage and current
- analyzing coil current waveforms and IGT/IGF signals
- identifying differences between factory and aftermarket ignition coils
Tools used
- scan tool
- incandescent test light
- Pico four channel automotive lab scope
- low amp probe
Playlist
- (Chapter 22) No Spark Troubleshooting, Ignition Coil & Module Testing
• (Chapter 22) No Spark ...
Related videos
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• How to test for a shor...
- Ford 5.4 shorted coil primary winding and bad computer driver
• Ford 5.4 shorted coil ...
- How to test an igniter on a Toyota/Lexus
• How to test an igniter...
- Ignition System Designs, Operation and Testing (an SD Premium video)
• Ignition System Design...
For more information on this topic, I have written a “field manual” called Engine Performance Diagnostics which is available at www.scannerdanner.com as an eBook or paper book.
Want even more diagnostic training? Whether you are a DIY trying to fix your own car, someone looking to become an auto technician, or a current auto technician that wants to get more into diagnostics, subscribe to ScannerDanner Premium www.scannerdan... There is a 14 day free trial.
On ScannerDanner Premium I will bring you right into my classroom at Rosedale Technical College. You will find page for page lectures taken right from my book as well as exclusive classroom type case studies. What is so special about these classroom case studies? I pull live problem vehicles directly into my classroom and we troubleshoot them in real time, using and applying the theory and testing procedures we learn during the classroom lectures. There is no better on-line training of how to troubleshoot automotive electrical and electronics systems anywhere!
Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC.
I remember watching this about 8 years ago. It's one of the videos that started it all for me. I remember that shop noise being a problem, hopefully that's gone. I've been a successful electrical diagnostics technician with my own business. Thank you.
Eight years later and I am still coming to this video to LEARN! Thanks for all the great videos and excellent content! 🙏
This is excellent visual evidence of a clear difference in quality of original equipment vs. aftermarket.
What a great video Paul. You're a gifted teacher and a brilliant technician.
Thank you James!
Thank you so much! I really means a lot to hear from a fellow tech. in the field that what I am doing is worthwhile.
switching the coils around to find out if its bad or not -- brilliant! I have an intermittent problem, so I switched the plug to another spot and the coil to another spot. Now to see which spot the error returns to. You saved me a lot of time and money.
chrisfaley6662; I used to mow lawn at your moms condo association. So after 7 yrs how did this help you,...or not ?
@@tubetime39 You got the wrong guy, sorry.
Thank you Paul!
Just fixing my own cars..
I bought a Topdon Phoenix plus; and you make me believe I can learn this stuff. I now understand what the 3 or 4 wires are on the injectors. When you start off knowing nothing, it doesn't take long to double and triple your knowledge base!
I really appreciate you taking us along as you think out loud, make mistakes occasionally, and figure it out.
Great to hear! Thank you
You absolutely can learn this stuff! Glad your are here
Thanks for helping me saving 430 USD in repair saving from the official repair shop on this information.
I found two coils which did not work, replaced them, and my car runs again.
And it was done without any testing equipment than my own ears.
Thanks so much
such a good professor I wish I would have had you as my professor at college
Ha ha ha. You didn't know it but that air hammer in the background was Eric O, giggling as he yanked your chain. Brilliant video, this one clarified many of my open questions.
Yes that makes perfect sense,after around 100hrs of ur normal & premium vids and my had knowledge I can scope and read/diagnose near on anything on a car,the only tricky thing iAm trying to get my head around is interpreting ignition wave forms properly,thumbs up for you sharing your knowledge,your diagnostic book and pico is the BEST tool I have bought for the shop.
I always liked to refer to the IGT signal from the ECM as the Acronym, “I’m Giving Trigger.”
For IGF, the Acronym is “I Got Fire.”
IGF should actually spelling out "I got dwelling, ready to fire" because it is not yet fired until the trailing edge of IGT.
I love your videos. Your a great teacher and i love how you explain everything so detailed but yet simple. Keep up the great work.
this video was an awesome supplement to me doing some ignition waveforms on my sisters 2016 Toyota camry. Same 4 wire coils. The explanation of the 4 wire helped me undersand what is happening. Also I was looking at a diagram on a 2009 Mercedes Benz S550, same design and I scratching my head at that common wire... now I understand. Again I can't stress enough paul your videos are relevant to so many vehicles. These videos are so packed with good info
Thanks so much brother
Very good movie.I hope the air hammer will be nominated for the academy award for the supporting actor and you Paul win the Oscar for lead actor.
I am so lucky to watch your vedio
I am working as a mechanic.
Your teaching style is awesome.
I really appreciate your efforts.
Thank you! Welcome to my channel
Amazing video, you always prove that you are the best in diagnosis and while explaining you talk in simple terms that always make sense. In otherwords you never talk theory that humans wont understand, which is what many others do in theory class. Simply Great.. I also never noticed that u struggle in middle while explaining, you have ur concept very clear and going from there with not struggle, excellent.
Excellent information. I got the tips for my next car with 4 wires, thank you for all information. GOD bless your family and you too
ok i'm a pretty new tech(just starting my 3rd year in the field). I'm considering buying your e-book as a reference when I get stuck with a hard car to diagnose. I wish I could of had you as a drivability teacher while I was still in school. These videos make sense of everything I've seen in the field and in the classroom. Thank you for these videos and I hope you continue to make more.
good explanation Paul,I never understood exactly why use the IGF signal if you already have a trigger signal to the coil ,but it make sense why they do,that is how the pcm determines dwell time... Thanks Paul....
by the way I've learned more from your videos than all the other RUclips videos I've watched combined!! So thank u for that you're an excellent teacher danner
Thank you Michael!
Great job Paul you are a brilliant teacher. I love watching your videos. I learned so much from you I will continue watching your videos. Thanks
Thank you!
Paul,with all the noise interruptions, I must write that you have the patience of a saint. lol... great instruction thank you.
+John Kimmel haha not really, I just know the camera is on me :)
+ScannerDanner I want to thank you for said camera and for what you do.I will be subscribing to your premium channel. I have been in this business forty years now and honestly have been getting by on the seat of my pants.I have always been weak in electrical understanding and that is all my own fault. That being said at my age I can no longer survive on turning wrenches and such. As I have learned much just observing your brother and you, I have a new hunger to be a complete automobile technician.
+John Kimmel contact me thru my website and I'll give you a coupon for a free month of my premium channel. Thanks again !
i just wanted to thank you for making these videos. I purchased your ebook and reading it everyday. I already impressed the boss with the knowledge that im learning and using it with my diagnostics strageties
i really enjoyed this video. They are very easey to understand and apply Again, thank you Paul
Wow, what a video. Two Thumbs Up. You are one hell of a teacher in the classroom.
Thanks so much! It's been my passion for the past 18+ years now
Another awesome video scannerdanner! Don"t let the shop noise get to you lol, we can still hear you just fine.
You are great Teacher, respect to you
Thanks scannerdanner, with your videos i'm learning how to use a picoscope.
I have never use one before
Hey Paul, I've watched a few videos of yours, I think your a great lecturer. You really spell out the situation, your diagrams are good and you explain them great, and you scoping exercises are a really good overview of the system working or not. If I had you once upon a time as a mentor I could have saved years and year of working this stuff out on my own. I hope your students appreciate you. And that hammer!! You wanna scream but you gotta laugh. Its a real workshop, and your a real guy with real experience. Thanks for your videos and book.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate your kind words and encouragement.
Excellent video Paul. As for the air hammer, just think of it as applause.
I use an air hammer 3 or 4 times a week. I HATE USING IT. Your video is still great...Thanks again...
I would not argue with that line of thinking one bit. Great point. In fact I tell my students this all the time. "Don't touch it until you test it"
I guess I didn't listen to myself on this one.
I am however less concerned for "hard faults" if you know what I mean. For intermittent issues, I agree 100%
First of all Thanks Danner my escope ain't got that much detail, but fast and easy to use
Remember there are two coils inside an ignition coil. You can have primary control and no secondary (spark).
So technically when we say the coil is "firing", we are usually talking about the secondary spark. I know I am just picking at terms here, but I would say that the coil was not firing, but we had good primary control. This means the coil secondary was shorted or open. The amp ramp shows the primary control of the coil.
Finally stopped procrastinating and bought your book.
I have the theory that our air compressor is hooked up to our telephone system. When the phone is answered, the compressor comes on within 30 seconds.
Yes, but we want to do this with a test light, not a straight jumper wire. We may even want to add a resistor in series to drop the voltage as the base circuit typically only needs 4v to turn the transistor on. I have used a test light with no issues but it is something to think about,
I have watched your videos, wow youre a great teacher !!
Brilliant - the look on his face at 9:21 when the air hammer goes off.
Paul,
Thanks for reply referencing '86 GT Stang. I'm going to double check all the basic parameters/voltage readings on the coil and the ignition module. Basically the engine dies while in idle, usually takes a few minutes. Especially if run for 10 minutes, turn ignition off and restart immediately. Normal RPMs are about 600 prior to engine stall. She cranks up all the time, during these situations but dies soon after. Compression is about 175 average on cold crank. I have a pressure gauge on the rail and it's 40 PSI rock solid even during the time before it dies. I probed wit a Scope on the computer/ignition module "driver" to the low side of the coil. When the engine starts dying, RPMs dropping, the 12v at the negative coil end increases in time directly coinciding with the drops in RPMs and eventual stall. I think maybe the magnetic pickup in the distributor is acting up and not triggering the coil to discharge and therefore causing the stalling.
Once again thanks for the reply, I will recon firm all my parameters and let you know. I do have a video recording of the scope waveform while this problem is occurring.
Pete
Pete, I believe what you are describing is the ignition dwell time being adjusted by the module due to very low RPM and may be completely normal.
Refresh my memory on this ignition system. Does it have a vacuum hose going to the distributor? Is it a magnetic pick-up or hall-effect in the distributor (2 or 3 wire pick-up)?
Nice one Paul, I wondered what that forth wire did and now I know, I bought a Vantage Pro on the strenght of your video's, so now I can check all these wire's, thanks mate.
One more thing: the explanation of the 3rd and 4th wire were excellent. I'm not exactly the "smartest peanut in the turd" (Bloodhound Gang) and so if I get it, I think most people will too.
Good video , i learnt a lot .
Best videos on you tube !!!
Thanks , graets from the Netherlands
Nice lesson there Mr Danner even though had a little bit of noise disturbance.
Great lecture ! Good explanation of 2 wire, 3 wire and 4 wire COP, Interesting how different manufacturers choose different designs.
My swag is IGF is IGnition FEEDBACK, Prior to installing the new coil, I would have guessed that IGF went low when a certain current was exceed and then back high when second current threshold was exceeded. That aftermarket coil sure has a different looking IGF signature and make my theory look incorrect.
I think the IGF only monitors the primary ignition circuit not the secondary. Great video. I have a 2006 Toyota Rav4 with a misfire coming in tomorrow and I wanted to review this circuit. I think this video also breaks the record for air hammer noise when filming.
I have watched this video a few times and thought why am I watching this I have a verus not a pico scope. The procedures you are using here can be used on a verus. Great Video. Who needs T.V. when you have SCANNER DANNER. Got to get book and go premium.
Thanks so much JD!
Good morning ScannerDanner 🙏 🌄 Take care 👍 and have a great day ScannerDanner 👍
Great tutorial thank you 👍
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧
Awesome - explanation,
Very Good Teacher.
- Don't worry bout that Air Hammer Tool.
Not a Problem -
SPECIALLY as you Stopped & made SURE we all Heard your info. Completely.
' Very Good Value. - #
That air hammer is hilarious. 😆
Paul, Thanks for these great videos. I am an ASE master tech with my L1 and 19 years experience. I have been reviewing some fundamentals lately and your videos help tremendously. I share your sentiment that maybe only 5 to 10 percents of techs in the field perform diagnosis properly. I appreciate all the case studies. Thanks again.
would liked to have seen your blood pressure graphed on the scope compared to the square wave signal of the air hammer. Great video as always
I have a couple known bad waveforms from the exact vehicle if you want me to email them. This car came in, start stall. 2 channel waveform on coil control and fuel injector showed intentional fuel injector shutdown. another waveform on coil control and IGF, showed no IGF signal on #4 coil. And finally another waveform, current ramp and coil control showed no current produced in primary.
The shop owner was pretty suprised with a coil fixing a start and stall complaint.
...BEST VIDEO EVER ON THIS!!! A couple of questions:
1) Is the IGT signal compatible with 5V logic (TTL or CMOS)
2) Does the coil fire in the HIGH or LOW pulse (ie is the pulse active high or low)?
3) ...any idea what current is required to hold the pulse active?
4) Will a 12V pulse safely fire the IGT input?
Again, thanks so much for the useful information---I LOVE your reactions to the "air hammer" segments!!
Definitely the guy with the air hammer love to interrupt you. Really good Thanks for your help.
Thank you Ruben!
Paul your a legend thank you 🙏
If cylinders 2 and 3 are on the same coil and only half of the coil has spark, then yes, you have a bad coil. (make sure you replace the plugs and wires too)
watch my video on how to do a cylinder drop test. I had a Ford waste spark system with a bad coil that only half of one of them was working and I discuss how this can happen
God has bless you thank you Sir ScannerDanner
PROFICIENT Sir ScannerDanner
From Nick Ayivor from London England 🇬🇧
Again a sweet video !!
Love the airhammer parts hahaha 35 min is so funny
Greetings from the netherlands
+Lars Greefhorst haha, I hate that tool!
@@ScannerDanner ...someone should make an "air hammer" compilation.
I love the credits at the end of this video, "starring a very annoying air hammer!" 😂
Paul not going to lie i laughed so hard at that air chisel that was really funny. Again nice video keep em coming ! They Rock
Thumbs up from me! You talk a lot about aftermarket coil differences in this video. You might want to devote a whole video to the topic of aftermarket parts problems, from your own experience. That's something you won't find in many textbooks.
Thank you, it is another great video.
I need to know how to find something similar to a labor guide, yet it's used to charge for diagnosis tasks. I looked around but found nothing like that.
Here you go eautorepair.adtrk.biz/?a=10817&c=24&p=r&s1=
Labor guides are offered as well as service information for individual cars. Same program I use at a professional level that costs a lot of money is being offered to the DIYer for a fraction of the cost!
@@ScannerDanner
Thank you so much.
God bless you.
lol on the air hammer/chisel
Thanks for the comment. I truly appreciate it.
On a 2011 corolla if you don't have the IGF from one coil it will turn the injector off and not report intermittent faults on other coils. I replaced 1 coil and then had intermittent misfires on other cylinders.
:-) I was laughing during the editing too. figured a good laugh for others would be welcome, and I guess I figured right huh?
thanks again for the video on the wideband O2!
IGT= Ignition Trigger, IGF= Ignition Feedback, All you have left is Ignition + (Power) and Ignition - (Ground}.
Yes sir, thanks
Awesome video! Will be sharing this!
The air hammer is one of my favorite tools because it means I’m done playing and something is about to get my frustrations taken out on it 😂 . But yeah I can see how you would hate it in this setting while trying to teach a class.
Many modern systems shut off fuel for the misfiring cylinder by not activating the injector. If you are worried your car does not have this, disconnect the coil for a cylinder you know is working and check if the injector is still working. Still, I would only be worried about the oil in that case if the engine has a lot of by-blow, has been driven with misfire for a long time, or it has been too long since the last oil change. When in doubt, oil change is always good! Don't forget the filter!
I can do that. Next one I get in with a misfire. Here is the trick, remove the coil housing and run some old spark plug wires to the spark plugs. do all of your tests this way. also, if you have a scope and a low amp probe you can monitor coil firings from the feed wire of the model
it was amusing to see paul get annoyed with the hammer drill lol
Paul
Q:
Why Toyota use 2 IGF in V8 engines?
Is that mean PCM can't identify which coil not firing when you use 1 IGF.
Such as in Toyota V8 4.7L 2UZ-FE engine
IGF1
1 4 6 7
IGF2
2 3 5 8
Just thought of this while he was at his Smart Board, ScannerDanner is like the Tony Stark of automotive diagnostic...
Air hammer IS loud as hell, but it has saved my ASS many times. Sorry Danner! Keep up the good work my friend. Love your vids. Awesome instruction.
thanks man
That air hammer at 35:00! Lol
I feel your frustration but it is funny the timing lol
wish to see the IGF and IGT combined of bad coil too.
beautifull video bro thanks
Thank you for understanding. Feel free to repost it after you remove that part.
2008 Volvo xc90 V8 Sport I have a P0356 Ignition Coil 6 Primary/ Secondary circuit code. I tested the coil with a test light for spark and have a good spark. The plug is fouled. I replaced the plug and after a day or so I get the code again and the plug is fouled...again. I'm thinking injector? I'm not sure. Great Video! I wondered why there were two commons on the diagram. Now I know!
could be, or you have a compression issue with that cylinder? Have you swapped that coil to another cylinder? I would do that too
I'm glad you think so. At times it doesn't feel that way to me. :-)
35:18. so funny about the air hammer. All kidding aside though great video and great teaching thanks.
THANK YOU FOR THIS AWESOME VIDEO!!!
Man that air hammer guy is just fucking with u in this one Danner.
thank you for good explain bro❤ my question is can i check control wire which is green/blue.etc by testlight?
Not on ignition coils with the transistor built in (3 and 4 wire designs) as the trigger signal (control wire) is a small 4v signal.
On Toyotas I think of IGT as ignition trigger and IGF as ignition feedback or echo.
yes sir
So the only way to check and see if the coil is getting a signal is to put a scope on the signal wire right? That sucks that you cant test it with a dvom,node, or test light.
nice, experienced & smart
2006 sienna. Crank no start. I’m supposed to see 4.5- 5 v on the IGF with key on and I only have ground. Does that mean I have a bad computer?
Great video. Think Eric O is using Big Nasty In the background.....
If you had purchased a new aftermarket coil. Then had the same reading but still had a slight misfire on number 4. How would you identify whether the problem was in the new coil if the wavelengths are different. Is there a 100% way to know by waveform if a coil is operating properly? Besides just looking for a difference between the other coils? What if you had issues in multiple coils on a v8. That had a few aftermarket coils? How would you know then?
In another video you showed that the ramp was not straight and it was a bad coil as the other coils had straight ramps. I notice these ramps have a negative curve on the original coils just above half way to the top. The other video had a positive curve on one coil only and it was bad. It was near the beginning of the ramp though. Is that the key area?
Also, what if a coil has a secondary issue. How do you identify that issue?
You cannot see all failures in a waveform. Especially when looking at primary and you have a secondary leakage problem.
GREAT VID!!!! Hey what would happen if I did the test light spark test with the test light hooked up to positive side of battery instead of ground?
Depends what test. Spark itself jumping to the light? It would still work. Even 12v is essentially a ground when compared to 40kv
Thanks man. If you need more info on the eBook fill out your name and email on my website.
Keep watching, more videos to come.
Ordering a low amps probe for my VP on payday! Great video!
just seeing the current ramp shows for #4 verifies control on that coil. current flow is present therefore the IGF didnt see a problem. i get that. what im not seeing is why this pattern points toward the coil being faulty. the secondary windings were the problem if i understand correctly but based on this pattern alone, couldnt this also be carbon tracing past the boot or the plug insulator? or a dead plug? what am i missing?
you can however a Dmm doesn't sample fast enough to see coil firings
I have a 94 deville. Lacks power and shakes. I'm guessing it's a spark plug issue . How can I test my theory using a test light? Also no codes are coming up when I manually test it.
Interestingly the bad coil's current reached max then began to drop before the "points" (transistor) opened. I suspect partial semiconductor failure.
Just want to let you know that your video is still useful :)
Can a new fancy scanner show me this graph info?
Thanks again for the great lesson.
Cheers.
Ignition coil current and voltage patterns cannot be viewed on a scanner, no matter how fancy it is. These would be lab scope waveforms, if that is what you are referring to.
Yes but remember he is teaching new techs how to do it, need to give them all the steps so once in the field and have all the test needed.
IGT = IGnition Trigger
IGF = IGnition Feedback