Iskenderian custom ground solid, P55 core with the 'SO' (special oiling) Isky lifters. I broke that camshaft in with PAC 'beehive' springs, 150# seat/345 over the nose. Driven 'racing' conventional 15/50 oil. 1.7 ratio rocker arm, lashed @ .012" cold. Broke in perfectly, excellent wear pattern on all sixteen lifters. 454 big block Chevy for a C3 Corvette, 510/566 hp/trq. Cheers!
I bought a set of Comp roller hyd lifters. The plunger inside the lifter was pressed down upon initial install and never came back up. They were pressed down by the valve spring upon setting rockers. I pulled down the lifter to find the internals were all rusted which jammed the internals. I contacted Comp and sent some photos they sent a new set out totally free. Didnt even ask for the old ones to be sent back. If your able to (have the tools), I'd recommend pull down every lifter and thoroughly inspect and clean each and every one before installation.
All aftermarket car parts are very poor quality now days. I can say this because I've been in the auto repair business for over 60 years. Camshafts and lifters are not immune to the plague. The primary cause is quality control or lack of it. Checking tolerances isn't enough as in the hydraulic lifter, how do you check the plunger and spring? Why should you have too? It's hard to make a living when you have to do the job twice and can't depend on the longevity of parts.
To just have to do the job twice would be easy and cheap. It's the rest of the motor that is more than likely damaged as a result of even just one lifter wearing down very quickly. All the bearings in the motor, the cam, the crankshaft, the oil pump, the rocker arms and or shafts, possibly cylinder walls and pistons and rings, all the gaskets and oil seals that are disturbed during a rebuild. All this is assuming that when the lifter fails that it doesn't jam in such a way as to involve a pushrod that could involve a rocker arm(s) to hold a valve open and kill a piston that kills a rod and it goes thru the block. One failed cheap part can get way out of control. These cam and lifter companies need to be sued in a class action lawsuit rather than them just ALWAYS BLAMING THE CUSTOMER. This needs to happen now.
We as mechanics end up paying for things in most cases. Bad parts, cost savings a customer wants compromising the job and our own genuine mistakes. It can be tough some days.
@@RestoringChristine1956 As he did mess up the engine now again by sloppy work, we will not be able to find out if the melling lifters he used on the second try with a used original cam would have worked out. Damn, that would have been of great help out there! At least he has shown that these have the crown compared to the comp ones!
I wasn't very happy with UT's diagnosis because it was if he just tossed a set of lifters in without looking at and testing them 1st. Never do that! :(
New comp cams cam/lifter set lasted 10 hrs in my boat(flat bottom V drive) followed break in to the letter. Went with rollers. Hope those hold up. 455 Pontiac.
Odd thought, but theres one story nobody reports on or makes videos of: successful flat tappet builds that avoided break-in oils, and went straight for the intended running oil... and watched oil pressure during run-in like a hawk. Isn't that how most builders worked in the 60's/70's/80's? I don't have the means to prove it with a series of [lets say 25] builds, but what if break in oil... should only dress cylinder bores for assembly on fresh builds? I can only report that I have done the same before, and.... drove it, and had a good time: 320 pounds over the nose, 290 duration/0.460" lift on 1.5 rockers. Sump got pennzoil 10w-40 on that build/no aftermarket additives. Here's why I bring it up: the purpose of break-in oil is to increase wear through reduced protection. Maybe the better discussion might be what ra number range on a new lifter face surface gets best reliability? If its right the first time, lifters should burnish in without help it would seem.
@@flinch622 Back in the day they would coat the cam and lifters in whatever oil they intended to use and go racing that night with rarely ever a problem. Gas was leaded back then, some of which would make its way to the lifter faces due to blow by past the piston rings. I’ve built half a dozen pontiacs over the years all using Rhodes lifters and getting a successful break in. Rhodes lifters come with a squeeze packet of break in goop which I’m sure I used every time. The build that failed though I simply used the lifters that came with the cam as a kit. It was a Comp Cams high duration cam in the .550” lift range with valve springs spec’d for that cam. I don’t remember the specs specifically. That cam also probably came with a squeeze packet of break in goo which I certainly would have used. After the failure of that install and being aware of the problems other people were having I went with rollers. I, like you, have neither the time or the money to experiment with what works and what doesn’t as far as flat tappets.
Were you able to test each lifter for bleed down prior to assembly? I test/blueprint but don't normally disassemble and clean all new parts. Considering the amount of internal debris I've been encountering in general though, I think I may start doing that especially in the case of lifters.
No unfortunately not. I find your findings extremely interesting regarding the contamination however. It's too bad it's come down to this with new parts.
So we know they are passing these poor quality components to their customers. Should we purchase from them again? Can we believe their claims how much better they are than their competitors? If the flat tappets are junk should we believe the rollers aren't? Do their racing customer's give them all the business they need to stay in business? I just had a failure and the brand I used will not be going in my engines. We can say it's every brand and if so it's a great time for a company to step up and in house the lifters and put the rest out of business. Not saying customers don't get things wrong and have a few failures, But the number of fails out there now are not acceptable.
Casper - I think you nailed it. I'm about to do another video soon on a 440 BBM we are building, and going with Johnson HyLifts. I've had good luck with these so far, but you never know on these. I'm also seeing bleed down issues on hydraulic rollers as well.
The sad thing is most customers think that what they paid for the product or repair is all or 90% pocket money and the failed part manufacture pays the full shop labor and all other parts associated with the warranty repair.
Is this problem limited to a certain lifter manufacturer or is it widespread? I know most brands do not manufacture their own lifters in house but, instead just put their logo on the box.
Bummer. Wish you would have opened up the bad lifter to show what failed. Was it a broken spring, or did the piston jam inside the lifter body? I'm building a Corvair engine now and all these recent cam/lifter failure horror stories are making me reuse original parts.
The issue is almost never the internal mechanism of a lifter. It is in most cases the contact surface of the lousy POS lifter that these companies represent as quality precision parts. They are JUNK that companies like Crap Cams bought from Mexico or China or who knows where. These are sold at a price that is the most the market will tolerate at a huge profit to them and a bonus for the parts buyer of the cam and lifter company. These junk parts are killing people's engines. Costing hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars and untold labor. These flat tappet cams should have been taken off the market because they are a time bomb waiting to destroy an engine and some customers wallet.
@@davidkeeton6716 OK - so the new lifter is missing a "slight crown" instead it's "milled flat" - - how hard would it be to belt-sand with 400 grit the needed crown? You could measure progress with a feeler gauge against glass. (I cut valves at a machine shop)
Your lifter probably don't have a good crown, and you cam has no tapper. Engine shop here has more bad in the last 2 years that the last 40 before that. If you insist on using FT check crown and taper, also make sure your lifters are spinning when running, really a lifter failure, the engine needs to come down all the way if a lobe is wiped out. It's most all FT cams. Some one somewhere is not sitting up machine properly. In China they have no idea what a cam and lifter even does.
Actually that was all fine. The cam and lifter face never failed, it appears it was the internal plunger/spring mechanism that wouldn’t maintain pressure to stay pumped up.
Never had any problems with any of my old cars. Studebaker V8 and six, air cooled VW, 65 GMC V6, 65 Toyota Landcruiser, 69 Chrysler slant six. What do they all have in common? Solid lifters, adjustable rocker arms.
The Chinese manufacturers are taking old parts and "reconditioning" them and selling them as new. The responsible people should be in jail. It's a lot more expensive once they fail and take out the cam lobes or cause a catastrophic failure. Then its way more expensive than new lifters and gaskets. It's a whole new engine.
They are doing the same with MIL Spec parts for our military. They buy "E-Waste" (e.g. electronic waste) by the ship full, dissassemble, clean and remark them as MIL spec components. The military installs the parts and...they fail.
I need 8 tappets for a 30 yo diesel engine (Westerbeke) but none can be found. Are there businesses that could/would make them for a relatively reasonable cost?
The market has been flooded with cheap Chinese junk parts. People think they’re cheap, but they’re not. You have to do everything AGAIN ! Where were these lifters made? American owned and operated does NOT mean made in the USA !!
@@blakesmusclecar I was hoping you made your own experience on this. No second hand information... As Dan from DD's speed shop has shown, that might not be true as the melling lifters have a good crown instead of the ones from comp he had difficulties with. From whom did you get your information? Engine builder or machining shop or something?
I have never used those before. I have had good luck so far with Johnson Hy-Lifts. I have another upcoming build and will post another video of the build as well as the test.
Powell machine or similar name has a you tube channel. Just posted a video (last 2 days) where a customer sent in 2 bad batches of crower lifters. Unknown if it was the cam saver versions though
I am skeptical of everyone and everything. Almost all failures I have ever seen on anything is the fault of the machine shop or the builder. (Unless you are taking shit to the limit). In the “old days” we would tear down to find out what went wrong. Often it was a lot of guesswork with no clear answer. I’m seeing these videos showing a wiped out cam lobe and blaming the cam for being soft. Lots of things can cause a lobe to wipe out. Just because you find a wiped out lobe doesn’t mean the cam was bad or even the lifter that rode on it. Here in this video you haven’t even disassembled the lifter and are blaming it. I have wondered how many of these failures are due to contamination or incorrect pushrod length. I’m not saying you did anything wrong on the build. You might be the best engine builder in the world. But to pull out a part and see it failed then knee-jerk make a video blaming the part? I kinda see the biggest issues being the younger breed of hot rodders. Always looking for something or someone to blame. Hot rodding is building shit, breaking it and fixing it. You don’t wanna play that game then get a nice used LS and be happy with 300+ stock horsepower. You wanna go fast be ready to spend money and if you are building it for a customer they better be ready too. You gotta pay to play. No way in hell I would have eaten a failure that I could not find any fault in my workmanship. Sack up. Fix the damn thing and learn. Investigate before spitting venom at a manufacturer. Kinda makes you sound like a whiny bitch.
I had occasion to swap a cam a couple years ago with just 3500 miles on it - goal was to get compression right as part of new heads install. So lifters and cam seeming to be in good order, a clean & inspect of lifters was done before laying them up with a little preservative. I found... metal flakes in two lifters, chrome like in appearance, source unknown. Motor had not made any kind of unusual noises. But what could have happened? Oh.. flakes could have lodged around check balls allowing bleed down. You are correct: investigate failure every time its found - "just buy new" is no way to learn anything.
@@Schlipperschlopper - What brand lifters are you referring to? There are only a few manufacturers that produce flat tappet lifters anymore. They are then REBRANDED, with names like Comp, Johnson, Johnson HyLift, Eaton and Delphi and maybe Melling that I know of.
Iskenderian custom ground solid, P55 core with the 'SO' (special oiling) Isky lifters. I broke that camshaft in with PAC 'beehive' springs, 150# seat/345 over the nose. Driven 'racing' conventional 15/50 oil. 1.7 ratio rocker arm, lashed @ .012" cold. Broke in perfectly, excellent wear pattern on all sixteen lifters. 454 big block Chevy for a C3 Corvette, 510/566 hp/trq. Cheers!
I bought a set of Comp roller hyd lifters. The plunger inside the lifter was pressed down upon initial install and never came back up. They were pressed down by the valve spring upon setting rockers. I pulled down the lifter to find the internals were all rusted which jammed the internals. I contacted Comp and sent some photos they sent a new set out totally free. Didnt even ask for the old ones to be sent back.
If your able to (have the tools), I'd recommend pull down every lifter and thoroughly inspect and clean each and every one before installation.
Great idea !!
All aftermarket car parts are very poor quality now days. I can say this because I've been in the auto repair business for over 60 years. Camshafts and lifters are not immune to the plague. The primary cause is quality control or lack of it. Checking tolerances isn't enough as in the hydraulic lifter, how do you check the plunger and spring? Why should you have too? It's hard to make a living when you have to do the job twice and can't depend on the longevity of parts.
To just have to do the job twice would be easy and cheap. It's the rest of the motor that is more than likely damaged as a result of even just one lifter wearing down very quickly. All the bearings in the motor, the cam, the crankshaft, the oil pump, the rocker arms and or shafts, possibly cylinder walls and pistons and rings, all the gaskets and oil seals that are disturbed during a rebuild. All this is assuming that when the lifter fails that it doesn't jam in such a way as to involve a pushrod that could involve a rocker arm(s) to hold a valve open and kill a piston that kills a rod and it goes thru the block. One failed cheap part can get way out of control. These cam and lifter companies need to be sued in a class action lawsuit rather than them just ALWAYS BLAMING THE CUSTOMER. This needs to happen now.
Never buy Chinese, Mexican or Argentinian crap
O mostly buy NOS I had good Luck with Elgin and Jegs housebrand that US Made by Melling
We as mechanics end up paying for things in most cases. Bad parts, cost savings a customer wants compromising the job and our own genuine mistakes. It can be tough some days.
Did you see Uncle Tony's video about this? His lifters were missing the necessary crowns on the lobe side preventing the lifters from spinning.
Yes sir I did.
Yeah that has me worried. Chinesium strikes again!
As did Dan at DD's Speedshop in a big block Chevy. Uncle Tony discovered the "reconditioned" lifters.
@@RestoringChristine1956 As he did mess up the engine now again by sloppy work, we will not be able to find out if the melling lifters he used on the second try with a used original cam would have worked out. Damn, that would have been of great help out there! At least he has shown that these have the crown compared to the comp ones!
I wasn't very happy with UT's diagnosis because it was if he just tossed a set of lifters in without looking at and testing them 1st.
Never do that! :(
I hope you have better luck than me - my Howards leak down overnight! Good video, thanks.
Thanks Chuck G!
New comp cams cam/lifter set lasted 10 hrs in my boat(flat bottom V drive) followed break in to the letter. Went with rollers. Hope those hold up. 455 Pontiac.
Odd thought, but theres one story nobody reports on or makes videos of: successful flat tappet builds that avoided break-in oils, and went straight for the intended running oil... and watched oil pressure during run-in like a hawk. Isn't that how most builders worked in the 60's/70's/80's? I don't have the means to prove it with a series of [lets say 25] builds, but what if break in oil... should only dress cylinder bores for assembly on fresh builds? I can only report that I have done the same before, and.... drove it, and had a good time: 320 pounds over the nose, 290 duration/0.460" lift on 1.5 rockers. Sump got pennzoil 10w-40 on that build/no aftermarket additives.
Here's why I bring it up: the purpose of break-in oil is to increase wear through reduced protection. Maybe the better discussion might be what ra number range on a new lifter face surface gets best reliability? If its right the first time, lifters should burnish in without help it would seem.
@@flinch622 Back in the day they would coat the cam and lifters in whatever oil they intended to use and go racing that night with rarely ever a problem. Gas was leaded back then, some of which would make its way to the lifter faces due to blow by past the piston rings.
I’ve built half a dozen pontiacs over the years all using Rhodes lifters and getting a successful break in. Rhodes lifters come with a squeeze packet of break in goop which I’m sure I used every time. The build that failed though I simply used the lifters that came with the cam as a kit. It was a Comp Cams high duration cam in the .550” lift range with valve springs spec’d for that cam. I don’t remember the specs specifically. That cam also probably came with a squeeze packet of break in goo which I certainly would have used.
After the failure of that install and being aware of the problems other people were having I went with rollers.
I, like you, have neither the time or the money to experiment with what works and what doesn’t as far as flat tappets.
Were you able to test each lifter for bleed down prior to assembly?
I test/blueprint but don't normally disassemble and clean all new parts. Considering the amount of internal debris I've been encountering in general though, I think I may start doing that especially in the case of lifters.
No unfortunately not. I find your findings extremely interesting regarding the contamination however. It's too bad it's come down to this with new parts.
@@blakesmusclecar I believe this is what's happening, in addition to internally dirty parts.
ruclips.net/video/MbRjAMhCEJk/видео.html
So we know they are passing these poor quality components to their customers. Should we purchase from them again? Can we believe their claims how much better they are than their competitors? If the flat tappets are junk should we believe the rollers aren't? Do their racing customer's give them all the business they need to stay in business? I just had a failure and the brand I used will not be going in my engines. We can say it's every brand and if so it's a great time for a company to step up and in house the lifters and put the rest out of business. Not saying customers don't get things wrong and have a few failures, But the number of fails out there now are not acceptable.
Casper - I think you nailed it. I'm about to do another video soon on a 440 BBM we are building, and going with Johnson HyLifts. I've had good luck with these so far, but you never know on these. I'm also seeing bleed down issues on hydraulic rollers as well.
I hope you have good luck on your build. I love a good 440 Mopar!
Adjust the valves from the bottom not the top. That way you get instant pump up when you start the engine and you get very little bleed down.
It's been that way for 20 years already.
The sad thing is most customers think that what they paid for the product or repair is all or 90% pocket money and the failed part manufacture pays the full shop labor and all other parts associated with the warranty repair.
EXACTLY!!!
Is this problem limited to a certain lifter manufacturer or is it widespread?
I know most brands do not manufacture their own lifters in house but, instead just put their logo on the box.
I have found good luck with Johnson HyLifts for flat tappets so far.
Haven't had a problem with howards cams and lifters but that's just my experience
Bummer. Wish you would have opened up the bad lifter to show what failed. Was it a broken spring, or did the piston jam inside the lifter body? I'm building a Corvair engine now and all these recent cam/lifter failure horror stories are making me reuse original parts.
The issue is almost never the internal mechanism of a lifter. It is in most cases the contact surface of the lousy POS lifter that these companies represent as quality precision parts. They are JUNK that companies like Crap Cams bought from Mexico or China or who knows where. These are sold at a price that is the most the market will tolerate at a huge profit to them and a bonus for the parts buyer of the cam and lifter company. These junk parts are killing people's engines. Costing hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars and untold labor. These flat tappet cams should have been taken off the market because they are a time bomb waiting to destroy an engine and some customers wallet.
@@davidkeeton6716 OK - so the new lifter is missing a "slight crown" instead it's "milled flat" - - how hard would it be to belt-sand with 400 grit the needed crown?
You could measure progress with a feeler gauge against glass. (I cut valves at a machine shop)
@@davidkeeton6716 funny but gm FACTORY lifters are mfgd at their MEXICO plant
I had comps that collapsed upon install. Found the internals were all rusted.
did you take it apart to see why the plunger wasnt returning up? Maybe there is some junk stuck in it
Yes sir, I disassembled it completely. From what I could tell is that the plunger was defective.
@@blakesmusclecar Defective how? Was it too tight in the lifter body or was the plunger spring too weak to push it up to the snap ring?
@@blakesmusclecar I would like to get an answer to this, too
really,,a new part failed :o no way!
Your lifter probably don't have a good crown, and you cam has no tapper. Engine shop here has more bad in the last 2 years that the last 40 before that. If you insist on using FT check crown and taper, also make sure your lifters are spinning when running, really a lifter failure, the engine needs to come down all the way if a lobe is wiped out. It's most all FT cams. Some one somewhere is not sitting up machine properly. In China they have no idea what a cam and lifter even does.
Actually that was all fine. The cam and lifter face never failed, it appears it was the internal plunger/spring mechanism that wouldn’t maintain pressure to stay pumped up.
If the customer supplies the parts they are paying for labor twice.
Buy Johnson Lifters
100%
Rhoads lifters hands down.
I would like to try them sometime
@@blakesmusclecardon’t they are junk
Just happened to a rebuild I did on a 73 Ford 460. Lifters failed and flattened 4-5 lobes. Garbage parts!
What brand did you use?
How can you blame the lifter mfgr before taking the lifter apart and seeing what the problem is?
Has anything GOOD come out of China?
Never had any problems with any of my old cars. Studebaker V8 and six, air cooled VW, 65 GMC V6, 65 Toyota Landcruiser, 69 Chrysler slant six. What do they all have in common? Solid lifters, adjustable rocker arms.
Great point.
@@blakesmusclecar FYI, the 65 Corvette 327 had solids and made 365 hp. I built one with hydraulics now I might change to solids before I start it
@@7CAJONEZ - Thanks and good to know
What about valve spring tension/pressure ?
The Chinese manufacturers are taking old parts and "reconditioning" them and selling them as new. The responsible people should be in jail. It's a lot more expensive once they fail and take out the cam lobes or cause a catastrophic failure. Then its way more expensive than new lifters and gaskets. It's a whole new engine.
Now it's affecting hydraulic rollers as well.
They are doing the same with MIL Spec parts for our military. They buy "E-Waste" (e.g. electronic waste) by the ship full, dissassemble, clean and remark them as MIL spec components. The military installs the parts and...they fail.
@@c103110a - That's terrible!
@@c103110a this is not true
@@AlphanumericCharacters Congress looked into it and determined it was a problem. Is Congress lying too? Wow.
I need 8 tappets for a 30 yo diesel engine (Westerbeke) but none can be found. Are there businesses that could/would make them for a relatively reasonable cost?
You might try Delta cams in Tacoma Washington, good luck
The market has been flooded with cheap Chinese junk parts.
People think they’re cheap, but they’re not. You have to do everything AGAIN !
Where were these lifters made?
American owned and operated does NOT mean made in the USA !!
My comp cams lifters did the same thing in under 100 miles it’s simply pathetic
I am on lifter set 4. Even the roller lifters are garbage.
I am seeing that as well on the rollers. Especially if you let the engine sit for over a week or 2, it takes them forever to pump back up.
How about Melling lifters (made in Mexico)? Any experience yet?
I think the Melling's are made by the same supplier as the Comp Cams lifters. Not sure, but that's what I have been told.
@@blakesmusclecar I was hoping you made your own experience on this. No second hand information...
As Dan from DD's speed shop has shown, that might not be true as the melling lifters have a good crown instead of the ones from comp he had difficulties with.
From whom did you get your information? Engine builder or machining shop or something?
Any thoughts on crower cam savers lifters?
I have never used those before. I have had good luck so far with Johnson Hy-Lifts. I have another upcoming build and will post another video of the build as well as the test.
Powell machine or similar name has a you tube channel. Just posted a video (last 2 days) where a customer sent in 2 bad batches of crower lifters. Unknown if it was the cam saver versions though
Too many lifters coming in from China and Mexico. These are JUNK and can cost you an engine.
Get Elgin lifters
I am skeptical of everyone and everything.
Almost all failures I have ever seen on anything is the fault of the machine shop or the builder. (Unless you are taking shit to the limit). In the “old days” we would tear down to find out what went wrong. Often it was a lot of guesswork with no clear answer. I’m seeing these videos showing a wiped out cam lobe and blaming the cam for being soft. Lots of things can cause a lobe to wipe out. Just because you find a wiped out lobe doesn’t mean the cam was bad or even the lifter that rode on it.
Here in this video you haven’t even disassembled the lifter and are blaming it. I have wondered how many of these failures are due to contamination or incorrect pushrod length.
I’m not saying you did anything wrong on the build. You might be the best engine builder in the world. But to pull out a part and see it failed then knee-jerk make a video blaming the part?
I kinda see the biggest issues being the younger breed of hot rodders. Always looking for something or someone to blame. Hot rodding is building shit, breaking it and fixing it. You don’t wanna play that game then get a nice used LS and be happy with 300+ stock horsepower. You wanna go fast be ready to spend money and if you are building it for a customer they better be ready too. You gotta pay to play. No way in hell I would have eaten a failure that I could not find any fault in my workmanship.
Sack up. Fix the damn thing and learn. Investigate before spitting venom at a manufacturer. Kinda makes you sound like a whiny bitch.
I had occasion to swap a cam a couple years ago with just 3500 miles on it - goal was to get compression right as part of new heads install. So lifters and cam seeming to be in good order, a clean & inspect of lifters was done before laying them up with a little preservative. I found... metal flakes in two lifters, chrome like in appearance, source unknown. Motor had not made any kind of unusual noises. But what could have happened? Oh.. flakes could have lodged around check balls allowing bleed down. You are correct: investigate failure every time its found - "just buy new" is no way to learn anything.
Donty buy Chinese parts buy Elgin or Erson
Elgin or Erson do not manufacture flat tappet lifters.
@@blakesmusclecar The lifters they offer work fine
@@Schlipperschlopper - What brand lifters are you referring to? There are only a few manufacturers that produce flat tappet lifters anymore. They are then REBRANDED, with names like Comp, Johnson, Johnson HyLift, Eaton and Delphi and maybe Melling that I know of.
@@blakesmusclecar The liftters sold by Elgin and Erson
China shack down!
Made in china ……? Lol smh
Most likely