This is by far the most thorough investigation of the mysterious lifter issues we hear about constantly. Nice job! The recipe for my cam success' are as follows. Lifter bores checked & honed. Crower Cam Saver lifters are used each time which have a .0015" deep flat spot milled into the O.D. of each lifter & lets a jet of oil bypass the lifter bore & blast the cam lobe. Each lifter is checked for crown but nowhere near as precise as what's in this video. I simply put each lifter on our perfectly flat quartz kitchen countertop (shhh!) & confirm that it rocks on its center high spot. I measure each cam lobe to confirm .003"-.004" taper. Plenty of break in Grease on cam lobes and lifter face but ONLY light oil in lifter bores as to facilitate easier rotation on initial start up. I then fully assemble valve train & put a bright colored magic marker stripe on the top of each lifter. I prime the oil pump, remove spark plugs and jave someone turn the key so I CAN WATCH EACH LIFTER SPIN. Only then will I install the intake manifold & complete the job. I break in the cam with Driven BR-40 oil. If this is too much trouble, it means you enjoy gambling. I Do Not Gamble. 👍
When considering the need for lifter rotation the lifter bore clearance is very important. A tool I never thought was necessary was the little slide hammer lifter removing tool. It was supposed to be for sludged up lifters. How many of these were used to force a mushroomed lifter out. Dragging the damaged lifter out the mushroom burr could gouge a lot of metal out of the lifter bore.
I can give you a bit of insight as to how this used to be in the late 80's and well into the late 90's. I used to own a speed shop, and as you can imagine I sold tons and tons of cams and lifters. I used to be a Crane Cams and a Norris Cams Master Warehouse Distributor. A lot of the V8 engines that we sold cams for were really old 60's/early 70's engines. By that time they were already close to if not 30 years old. I must have sold thousands of cam and lifter kits in close to 10 years in business and not once did I ever hear back from a customer that they had a cam/lifter failure. Now, these engines are now 50 years old, but the reality is that most all of these engines, at least the ones in "high performance use" have not really been daily drivers for probably the last 40 years or more. Even in the 80's and 90's most of the cars we were selling cams and lifters to were not daily drivers, unless they were a 5.0 Mustang, which most of them had roller lifters anyways. What I am trying to say is that yes a lot of these blocks have now been in use for 50+ years, but they have been in very light use for probably the last 30+ years. The real wear on these blocks happened in the first 5-10 years of their existence when they were used as daily transportation. After probably 20 years most were not daily transportation and were only used occasionally. I don't believe that most of these blocks have much more lifer bore wear than what they had 20 years ago. For example, I have a 1972 Olds 442 convertible Factory U code 455 car that has 78,000 original miles on it. When I bought it 20 years ago it had 74,000 miles on it. So, it has ran 4,000 miles in 20 years...
Kind of a small sample size to assume that’s a majority. I built my first engine in 1983 and never even considered a failure. I can tell you after speaking with a lot of engine builders across the country and at PRI each year, they absolutely see bore wear. They also generally will not build a flat tappet engine unless it’s a class spec engine. If I had an endless supply of cash, I’d buy a hundred cams and a hundred sets of lifters from various manufacturers and Rockwell test them all, and dissect them like the way we did in the video on camshaft hardness. Because the US made cores only come from a couple suppliers (and even they are limiting their production of flat tappet cores) and the lifters have just a couple making them anymore, it would be easy to verify what the cam grinders are getting ahold of and if any issues are found. I’ll go out an a pretty short limb and say you’ll not find many problems. The process hasn’t changed. The material hasn’t changed. Only the volume. So we have to start looking elsewhere and I do believe lifter bore is a top contributor. Excessive spring pressures also coincide with that issue. Then oil, etc. when you have a couple factors against you, the potential for failure is greater. Don’t make me go out and measure 100 blocks. I could barely afford to buy all the lifters for this test. 😉
@@MuscleCarSolutions I am not saying that the lifter bore wear is not an issue or a contributing factor. What I am trying to say is that back when I was doing this on a daily basis, if anyone measured those blocks, they would have probably had as much lifter bore wear as is being measured now. Most of those old blocks back then had over 100,000 miles, yet no one even though of measuring lifter bore wear back then. I sold my store in 1998 and up until then there were no issues and I don't think issues started popping up till 10+ years later.
@@bigboreracing356 I can assure you that it is bad, maybe not as bad as some people think but it is bad. As I posted above I had a very successful speed shop from the mid 80s' to the late 90's. I sold thousands upon thousands of cam and lifter kits and not once did I have a customer come back with a flattened cam lobe or lifter. This was not an issue back then. You can now see a ton of RUclipsrs having cams go flat and clearly stating that they had never in decades of putting engines together have a lobe or lifter go flat. Although I do agree with you that social media and the internet are probably making this look worse than it is, it is a real issue that was almost unheard of 20 years ago.
The key is that crown is present. (s/b .002-.003 ideal) That should be equal to the lobe taper on the camshaft used. Light springs and correct break-in procedure should then spell success. If not, probably a metallurgic issue. B.T.W. It was common in the 80s, 70s and earlier to reuse flat-tappet cams and install new lifters. Hardly any failures. Go figure...
We’ve covered quite a bit in this series on why todays failures are occurring. The biggest one I still believe is the lack of attention to the lifter bores. But compound that with all the others and it’s a recipe for disaster.
My experience has been that break in oil and lobe placement positions on the core are major factors. The lobe c/L has to be behind the lifter bore c/L by .030" to .045" for good lifter speed. Ive never had soft cams or lifters Tested submerged cam and lifters- with excellent results Oil film strength is crucial- break in oil is deficient for flat tappet interface.
@@4speed3pedals lifter crown and cam lobe taper is only one aspect that must be checked prior to break in. We’ve covered all the other things to check and properly set up in this series.
If you read the astm test procedures for cam & lifter wear [IVA & IVB tests], note the engines specified for each is overhead cam design - they are not testing on pushrod style engines, so maybe api spec means something, maybe it doesn't. I tend to think api spec [as seen at the parts store] is window dressing: real engineering criteria is locked down in an NDA by auto manufacturers when they get an oil company on board for being the recommended product on new engines. The recurrance of problems despite a number of people going out of their way to check hardness leans towards the complex - a blend of issues are in hand. Old blocks with lifter bore problems, weak or detergent overloaded oils [a seeming evil in dealing with low tension rings of modern engines], and lifters ground to some spec that may not be a match for lobe taper probably top the list. Complicating things at present is the ongoing [unreported] recession: in tough times, oil companies may pull back on some additive package quality, just so people will/can buy - that can be both a help and a problem at the same time. Nice to see lifter numbers, but they do remain unqualified absent taper. 25 or 30 tenths seems weird, but if taper complements, might be just fine. I do not have an inspection plate so I cannot measure my lifter crown properly right now, but I could mic an old lunati cam lobe: about 0.0025" worth of taper. Doing the trig on that was a little on the guesswork side because distance between measurments suffers from being eyeballed [roughly 0.450"] - that came out to something near 0.33 degrees. I know there's error in that - maybe 10%, because a taper never is a nice concentric or parallel place that a typical mic prefers. I only wish I had a proper plate & probe as used in the video to finish the lifter half to get a handle on peak oil film load radius from lifter center - there's a tangent in the puzzle I just can't get at on account of tools.
the forces on an overhead cam is a lot less. even in ohc direct valve cup actuation camshaft setup that is "flat tappet" equivalent of the ohc options (that could wipe or whatever too, but if the cams and stuff is done in a way that is good enough for that it might be good enough for cam in block, the same cam process could be absolutely fine on a ferrari or a toyota then and not on a 350)
I have 16 lifters, new, Melling, in the Melling boxes for a small block Chevy. No sense talking about what they match, I wish I knew.I got them for the Melling Z-28 second design off-road cam they grind. I purchased these about the time the lockdowns started and purchased them from Auto Zone, they were shipped to my house. They all look great. In fact, I took known Johnson lifters and compared them by taking one each apart and measuring everything and there is no appreciable difference other than the crown. I may have posted this below one of your videos. They are machined by a blind guy that used a bench grinder in my opinion knowing it is a Melling product. I now think they are Purchased from Melling and Melling grinds the face. They are flat, angled, low crown and some with crown a .003 crown. I doubt 2 are alike. If you would like to measure them just to prove me wrong or to see for yourself, I can ship them to you if you will do a video on them. You don't have to mention my name or where I am from and I prefer this. All I ask is that you ship them back at your expense. I finally settled on Crower supplied Johnson lifters and am satisfied with the measurements. I did not waste time to evaluate the chamfer but I know Melling now supplies lifters with no quality control. I checked them for hardness with Japanese hardness files and all meed the correct range. It is the crown that is horrible. There are very few machine shops that have equipment that put a crown on a lifter. Unless you find a job shop that can sharpen tooling and is willing to do the job, automotive machine shops normally lack this equipment. Winona Van Norman makes a machine that puts an actual crown on a lifter. There is a video on RUclips that Winona Van Norman has covering how the TRX grinder works. It can produce 8, 000 properly ground lifters per day. doesn't take up any more space than a valve grinder mounted on a cabinet. Many of the older lifter grinders some shops have put a flat taper from the center to the edge. If you want the new TRX grinder, expect to pay over twenty thousand dollars and is it profitable for a small shop? I did find a small job shop in my vicinity and have not spoken with him with lifters in hand to find out the cost. Due to the time I have owned these, I have not investigated if I can return them but if the job shop is out of my budget, I will jump all over Auto Zone if need be. The machine shop I used to work at in Baltimore used to purchase Johnson lifters by the gross and they came in a dark blue cardboard box with cardboard dividers and it was 2 tiers of lifters. Talk about heavy. Back then, we could get them for one dollar a piece, late 60's. Time have changed and so has quality control.
At .003 I would agree. That is horrible. Because they offer cams, my assumption is they were ground to match the lobe taper. But we’re back into a cost thing for me. I’d absolutely love to buy a few cam and lifter sets and measure crown and taper to see if 1) they are matched and 2) how good or how excessive they are. Maybe one day but I can only image the cost for that little learning experience!
@@Schlipperschlopper Why? Roller assembly costs more and keeps me from purchasing more important things. Most rollers sold are hydraulic and I despise hydraulic tappets. A higher revving roller will cost even more. For my build, I do not need a roller for it takes some of the fun out of seeing better performance from old school style builds. I have thought about purchasing one, looked over some of the offerings and that is when the confusion and the "gotta trust the cam grinder company" sets in and most aftermarket cam companies have the LSA wrong. LSA is the figure needed to know inorder to get maximum cylinder filling. A proper LSA will create better low end performance whild adding some power at top end. The main benefit is low end. A flat tappet SBC should be about 107-108 LSA and you see some way out numbers. This is not the only thing you need to know about those lobes. Billy Godbold's book falls short in explaining LSA, totally short. If you want to go fast, it costs more money all the time and I may never own a roller cam and I will still have some very nice performance and it will have a better sound. Rollers are for impaient people or those that want the max hp. I am neither and I am willing to do trial and error adjustments to learn even more.
LSA at a set value in the 107-108 range limits what the engine is capable of when different modifications are made. Take nitrous for example. In the last 20 years I don’t think I’ve had a single one ground on anything other than a 113 LSA. If they were on a 108 with no additional advance ground in, the thing wouldn’t rpm aggressively. If you really wanna freak yourself out, look at modern direct injection engines ground on 120+ LSA and with a few more degree’s added. Technology advances. Cam technology has really advanced on the last 20 years. The cam designers haven’t gotten it wrong. They’ve continued to make more and more power by moving around the opening and closing events.
@@MuscleCarSolutions My engine is a 400SBC with the 327 stroke. I have both offroad Z-28 reproduction cams and a crossram with both the dual and single tops (Offenhauser). The pistons are Icon flat tops with 2 valve reliefs. Ohio H-beam rods and 4130 crank. Aluminum heads with roughly 250 intake and 198exhaust flow at half inch lift., PAC springs and S/S valves. I am not any expert on LSA and I trust David Vizard and he is in agreement with Cattledog Garage (look him up on RUclips). Cattledog in one video rebutss a cam "expert" and in 2 videos he explains the LSA and his formula for calculating via cubic inch, normally aspirated on gasoline. I purchased Billy Godbold's book and I am very disappointed as he really does not get into LSA. Maybe he will do another covering just this topic but at my age, I am not holding my breath. So, I have used the formula and will be getting Camcraft in N. Carolina to grind a reproduction Z-28 offroad cam at 108 degrees. Both offroad OEM cams are112 degrees. Until this all comes together in my '56 Belair Sportcoupe with 4.10Pontiac rear and Richmod Super Street 5 Speed transmissioon, I will not be manking any changes. I still have to try both cams out before deciding which version I will get Camcraft to grind with a 108 LSA. In the meantime, I am mainly offering what I know and not trying to mislead anyone. I do thank you for your reply. It is appreciated.
On the fixture? No need. It’s the lifter we wanted to make sure wouldn’t cause any deviation in the reading. The stand is endlessly adjustable. It just needs to be solid in holding the gauge.
Thank you for covering that...as long as there is a flat-head motor out there being built ... I'm sure there always be a flat tappet cam being there for build assembly....good content and thanks
I honestly hope that the flat tappet option remains available for folks that choose to run one. Just not sure if the industry is going to continue to offer them. I know comp spent a ton on the DLC research and those have helped significantly. But beyond that, if the cam cores aren’t available or they have to come from India or China then that will be the last option.
After watching your testing of crown, I did the same test on a new set of Comp hyd flat tappet lifters, but after zeroing out the dial indicator I measured the outer edge at noon, 3 o'clock, 6 and 9. My lifters have an "oval crown" on them. I also found on Comp's website that they had lifter bore grooving tool to give the bore a small groove to allow oil to spill onto the lobe before it gets pressure to the lifter. Have you ever tried one ? your thoughts please.
Lifter bores can be sleeved back down to their factory size. In some blocks yes, they will sometimes use a larger body lifter but that’s generally not on factory blocks. Aftermarket it’s not uncommon.
I think if you keep the brand the same you’re likely ok. Easy thing would be to ask the manufacturer if the crown and taper match. You got me on the cool face. What is it? 😆
I absolutely believe lifter bore trueness is one of the culprits behind all the failures. Most blocks have been through thousands of heat cycles and the bores can definitely become egg shaped. Plus, we take these blocks to the engine shop and they always hot tank them. So, more heat. This is why I always tell the shop to HONE the lifter bores. It only costs a few dollars and it's cheap insurance. Also, check the lifter bodies for correct spec. When a lifter hangs or rotates poorly in a bore, bad things are gonna happen! Best solution....just go roller cam and sleep well at night. 😁👍
I don't understand why roller lifters are so much more expensive than flat tappets. I understand there is a little with the roller part of the lifter and the link bar. But some roller cam sets are in the $1k+ range. Why?
I’m not sure I’m capable of explaining that. It’s pretty obvious if you have them both in hand to see how much more manufacturing is needed to make and assemble a roller lifter.
A very good flat tappet lifter sold by GM in my country Germany costs here 275 Euros PER LIFTER! A good flat tappet here is much more expensive compared to a top quality set of rollers
The reason for having the indicator fixed to the plate is because most plates are not planer top and bottom unless purchased that way. But your error on .842 diam is small.
@@scottmuller1901 the zero of the gauge doesn’t occur at the base. It’s made on the gauge. There’s endless ways to mount the fixture. The final calibration will always be made at the gauge. You could mount it upside down if you had an area to attach it to. Doesn’t matter. It is still adjusted at the gauge.
You talked about progress. Right in front of you is real progress for us. That is the DLC lifter. DLC stands for Diamond Like Coating. This is a plasma coating right from the top of the aerospace world. I had a cam go flat after 1.5 years so I upgraded to a Comp Cams cam and lifters, standard lifters. The first 3 went flat in 5 minutes. Then I watched a video about DLC lifters and their tests. I already had the 4th replacement cam from Summit at the house. I called Summit and asked if I could exchange and pay the difference for the DLC lifters. They said OK. Since then I have had no problems. DLC is almost as hard as a diamond and since made of carbon is very slippery. I have since looked at the lifters 2 times and the cam. The lifters look like they were never used and the cam looks like it is micro polished. Save your money, only use DLC lifters. I called Summit with the success and suggested they advertise this. Two weeks later on You Tube I see Summit ads for DLC lifters. I was very happy as I do not want other people to blow away mass money on roller cams, lifters, and pushrods if there is an easy way out and DLC is it. Go read the tests that Comp Cams did on the Spintron. No matter the spring pressure, rpm, or abuse they did not care. The problem is obviously materials. DLC is the best solution to the problem especially for those who do not have endless money.
I don’t doubt the DLCs lifter to be a significant change in lifter tech. I was one of the first to review it. But after 4-5 cam failures, it’s probably time to look at what’s causing the failure. We talked about that in the lifter videos in this series. If the DLC is masking the reason for failure, eventually it’s going to expose itself and incorrectly it will be blamed on the part and not the situation it’s asked to operate in.
Nissan engines that use the DAMB system direct-bucket under cam now all have DLC buckets under the cams. Nobody ever talks about the non roller modern DOHC systems and I’ve looked inside some ford 3.6 v6s that use that system and you can see visible wear appearing on the buckets as they rotate very similarly to flat tappets. After about 150k miles they start to tick and become noisy and the only way to adjust is to shim or shave. Nissan started the DLC coating system I believe in 2020. No issues heard yet
Just sent back a set of Howards lifters that had more peaks and valleys than West Virginia!! Worst shit I have ever seen! Going to use a set of Isky lifters I have on hand and have them re-ground for the camshaft I'm using. Also, you have to go around the entire perimeter of the lifter. The set I had was all over the place from .001 to .0025, with a couple over .003. Howards claims to use a 4060" radius, but it's a radius, not just some pointed peak in the center.
I made mention in the video that it was measured 5 different times on each lifter. For times sake, I just showed the one. The only one I had any discrepancy on was the Crower.
@@Doug-b4p Delphi and Topline are the two biggest. There’s three others that are much smaller but produce some automotive flat tappets. All made in the US.
Having followed this video series, its got me concerned about my own flat tappet cam & lifters. I didn't know all this stuff when i slapped it ('63 292) together. I might not even run with the cam and swap it out with a roller before breakin. Not sure, whats another 1k on roller cam, lifters, and rockers in a 3.5k block. 🥲 Joking mostly aside. What i will do though is pull the lifters and have them measured as they are super easy to acces. While ive got the rockers loose I'd replace the rocker studs with threaded ones as my spring pressure went up from 190 to 230.
This is by far the most thorough investigation of the mysterious lifter issues we hear about constantly. Nice job!
The recipe for my cam success' are as follows. Lifter bores checked & honed.
Crower Cam Saver lifters are used each time which have a .0015" deep flat spot milled into the O.D. of each lifter & lets a jet of oil bypass the lifter bore & blast the cam lobe.
Each lifter is checked for crown but nowhere near as precise as what's in this video. I simply put each lifter on our perfectly flat quartz kitchen countertop (shhh!) & confirm that it rocks on its center high spot.
I measure each cam lobe to confirm .003"-.004" taper.
Plenty of break in Grease on cam lobes and lifter face but ONLY light oil in lifter bores as to facilitate easier rotation on initial start up. I then fully assemble valve train & put a bright colored magic marker stripe on the top of each lifter. I prime the oil pump, remove spark plugs and jave someone turn the key so I CAN WATCH EACH LIFTER SPIN. Only then will I install the intake manifold & complete the job. I break in the cam with Driven BR-40 oil. If this is too much trouble, it means you enjoy gambling. I Do Not Gamble. 👍
When considering the need for lifter rotation the lifter bore clearance is very important. A tool I never thought was necessary was the little slide hammer lifter removing tool. It was supposed to be for sludged up lifters. How many of these were used to force a mushroomed lifter out. Dragging the damaged lifter out the mushroom burr could gouge a lot of metal out of the lifter bore.
I can give you a bit of insight as to how this used to be in the late 80's and well into the late 90's. I used to own a speed shop, and as you can imagine I sold tons and tons of cams and lifters. I used to be a Crane Cams and a Norris Cams Master Warehouse Distributor. A lot of the V8 engines that we sold cams for were really old 60's/early 70's engines. By that time they were already close to if not 30 years old. I must have sold thousands of cam and lifter kits in close to 10 years in business and not once did I ever hear back from a customer that they had a cam/lifter failure. Now, these engines are now 50 years old, but the reality is that most all of these engines, at least the ones in "high performance use" have not really been daily drivers for probably the last 40 years or more. Even in the 80's and 90's most of the cars we were selling cams and lifters to were not daily drivers, unless they were a 5.0 Mustang, which most of them had roller lifters anyways. What I am trying to say is that yes a lot of these blocks have now been in use for 50+ years, but they have been in very light use for probably the last 30+ years. The real wear on these blocks happened in the first 5-10 years of their existence when they were used as daily transportation. After probably 20 years most were not daily transportation and were only used occasionally. I don't believe that most of these blocks have much more lifer bore wear than what they had 20 years ago. For example, I have a 1972 Olds 442 convertible Factory U code 455 car that has 78,000 original miles on it. When I bought it 20 years ago it had 74,000 miles on it. So, it has ran 4,000 miles in 20 years...
Kind of a small sample size to assume that’s a majority. I built my first engine in 1983 and never even considered a failure. I can tell you after speaking with a lot of engine builders across the country and at PRI each year, they absolutely see bore wear. They also generally will not build a flat tappet engine unless it’s a class spec engine. If I had an endless supply of cash, I’d buy a hundred cams and a hundred sets of lifters from various manufacturers and Rockwell test them all, and dissect them like the way we did in the video on camshaft hardness. Because the US made cores only come from a couple suppliers (and even they are limiting their production of flat tappet cores) and the lifters have just a couple making them anymore, it would be easy to verify what the cam grinders are getting ahold of and if any issues are found. I’ll go out an a pretty short limb and say you’ll not find many problems. The process hasn’t changed. The material hasn’t changed. Only the volume. So we have to start looking elsewhere and I do believe lifter bore is a top contributor. Excessive spring pressures also coincide with that issue. Then oil, etc. when you have a couple factors against you, the potential for failure is greater. Don’t make me go out and measure 100 blocks. I could barely afford to buy all the lifters for this test. 😉
@@MuscleCarSolutions I am not saying that the lifter bore wear is not an issue or a contributing factor. What I am trying to say is that back when I was doing this on a daily basis, if anyone measured those blocks, they would have probably had as much lifter bore wear as is being measured now. Most of those old blocks back then had over 100,000 miles, yet no one even though of measuring lifter bore wear back then. I sold my store in 1998 and up until then there were no issues and I don't think issues started popping up till 10+ years later.
@@bigboreracing356 I can assure you that it is bad, maybe not as bad as some people think but it is bad. As I posted above I had a very successful speed shop from the mid 80s' to the late 90's. I sold thousands upon thousands of cam and lifter kits and not once did I have a customer come back with a flattened cam lobe or lifter. This was not an issue back then. You can now see a ton of RUclipsrs having cams go flat and clearly stating that they had never in decades of putting engines together have a lobe or lifter go flat. Although I do agree with you that social media and the internet are probably making this look worse than it is, it is a real issue that was almost unheard of 20 years ago.
The key is that crown is present. (s/b .002-.003 ideal) That should be equal to the lobe taper on the camshaft used. Light springs and correct break-in procedure should then spell success. If not, probably a metallurgic issue. B.T.W. It was common in the 80s, 70s and earlier to reuse flat-tappet cams and install new lifters. Hardly any failures. Go figure...
We’ve covered quite a bit in this series on why todays failures are occurring. The biggest one I still believe is the lack of attention to the lifter bores. But compound that with all the others and it’s a recipe for disaster.
My experience has been that break in oil and lobe placement positions on the core are major factors.
The lobe c/L has to be behind the lifter bore c/L by .030" to .045" for good lifter speed. Ive never had soft cams or lifters
Tested submerged cam and lifters- with excellent results
Oil film strength is crucial- break in oil is deficient for flat tappet interface.
didnt know the mellings were so bad. good info
Was a bit of a surprise. You don’t know until you actually measure!
today maybe China imports as Edelbrock are said
@@Schlipperschlopper what?
May have been my luck of the draw but it sure proved that if you don't check, you will be pulling the pin on the hand grenade.
@@4speed3pedals lifter crown and cam lobe taper is only one aspect that must be checked prior to break in. We’ve covered all the other things to check and properly set up in this series.
If you read the astm test procedures for cam & lifter wear [IVA & IVB tests], note the engines specified for each is overhead cam design - they are not testing on pushrod style engines, so maybe api spec means something, maybe it doesn't. I tend to think api spec [as seen at the parts store] is window dressing: real engineering criteria is locked down in an NDA by auto manufacturers when they get an oil company on board for being the recommended product on new engines. The recurrance of problems despite a number of people going out of their way to check hardness leans towards the complex - a blend of issues are in hand. Old blocks with lifter bore problems, weak or detergent overloaded oils [a seeming evil in dealing with low tension rings of modern engines], and lifters ground to some spec that may not be a match for lobe taper probably top the list. Complicating things at present is the ongoing [unreported] recession: in tough times, oil companies may pull back on some additive package quality, just so people will/can buy - that can be both a help and a problem at the same time.
Nice to see lifter numbers, but they do remain unqualified absent taper. 25 or 30 tenths seems weird, but if taper complements, might be just fine. I do not have an inspection plate so I cannot measure my lifter crown properly right now, but I could mic an old lunati cam lobe: about 0.0025" worth of taper. Doing the trig on that was a little on the guesswork side because distance between measurments suffers from being eyeballed [roughly 0.450"] - that came out to something near 0.33 degrees. I know there's error in that - maybe 10%, because a taper never is a nice concentric or parallel place that a typical mic prefers. I only wish I had a proper plate & probe as used in the video to finish the lifter half to get a handle on peak oil film load radius from lifter center - there's a tangent in the puzzle I just can't get at on account of tools.
the forces on an overhead cam is a lot less. even in ohc direct valve cup actuation camshaft setup that is "flat tappet" equivalent of the ohc options (that could wipe or whatever too, but if the cams and stuff is done in a way that is good enough for that it might be good enough for cam in block, the same cam process could be absolutely fine on a ferrari or a toyota then and not on a 350)
Love your series on these FT camshaft issues. Your testing methods seem sound to me. Following, as always! RB
Information is invaluable. Especially in this series, I hope it delivers that. Thanks for watching!
I have 16 lifters, new, Melling, in the Melling boxes for a small block Chevy. No sense talking about what they match, I wish I knew.I got them for the Melling Z-28 second design off-road cam they grind. I purchased these about the time the lockdowns started and purchased them from Auto Zone, they were shipped to my house. They all look great. In fact, I took known Johnson lifters and compared them by taking one each apart and measuring everything and there is no appreciable difference other than the crown. I may have posted this below one of your videos. They are machined by a blind guy that used a bench grinder in my opinion knowing it is a Melling product. I now think they are Purchased from Melling and Melling grinds the face. They are flat, angled, low crown and some with crown a .003 crown. I doubt 2 are alike. If you would like to measure them just to prove me wrong or to see for yourself, I can ship them to you if you will do a video on them. You don't have to mention my name or where I am from and I prefer this. All I ask is that you ship them back at your expense. I finally settled on Crower supplied Johnson lifters and am satisfied with the measurements. I did not waste time to evaluate the chamfer but I know Melling now supplies lifters with no quality control. I checked them for hardness with Japanese hardness files and all meed the correct range. It is the crown that is horrible. There are very few machine shops that have equipment that put a crown on a lifter. Unless you find a job shop that can sharpen tooling and is willing to do the job, automotive machine shops normally lack this equipment. Winona Van Norman makes a machine that puts an actual crown on a lifter. There is a video on RUclips that Winona Van Norman has covering how the TRX grinder works. It can produce 8, 000 properly ground lifters per day. doesn't take up any more space than a valve grinder mounted on a cabinet. Many of the older lifter grinders some shops have put a flat taper from the center to the edge. If you want the new TRX grinder, expect to pay over twenty thousand dollars and is it profitable for a small shop? I did find a small job shop in my vicinity and have not spoken with him with lifters in hand to find out the cost. Due to the time I have owned these, I have not investigated if I can return them but if the job shop is out of my budget, I will jump all over Auto Zone if need be. The machine shop I used to work at in Baltimore used to purchase Johnson lifters by the gross and they came in a dark blue cardboard box with cardboard dividers and it was 2 tiers of lifters. Talk about heavy. Back then, we could get them for one dollar a piece, late 60's. Time have changed and so has quality control.
At .003 I would agree. That is horrible. Because they offer cams, my assumption is they were ground to match the lobe taper. But we’re back into a cost thing for me. I’d absolutely love to buy a few cam and lifter sets and measure crown and taper to see if 1) they are matched and 2) how good or how excessive they are. Maybe one day but I can only image the cost for that little learning experience!
scrap them or return! Get a Crower or Isky custom grind billet roller
@@Schlipperschlopper Why? Roller assembly costs more and keeps me from purchasing more important things. Most rollers sold are hydraulic and I despise hydraulic tappets. A higher revving roller will cost even more. For my build, I do not need a roller for it takes some of the fun out of seeing better performance from old school style builds. I have thought about purchasing one, looked over some of the offerings and that is when the confusion and the "gotta trust the cam grinder company" sets in and most aftermarket cam companies have the LSA wrong. LSA is the figure needed to know inorder to get maximum cylinder filling. A proper LSA will create better low end performance whild adding some power at top end. The main benefit is low end. A flat tappet SBC should be about 107-108 LSA and you see some way out numbers. This is not the only thing you need to know about those lobes. Billy Godbold's book falls short in explaining LSA, totally short. If you want to go fast, it costs more money all the time and I may never own a roller cam and I will still have some very nice performance and it will have a better sound. Rollers are for impaient people or those that want the max hp. I am neither and I am willing to do trial and error adjustments to learn even more.
LSA at a set value in the 107-108 range limits what the engine is capable of when different modifications are made. Take nitrous for example. In the last 20 years I don’t think I’ve had a single one ground on anything other than a 113 LSA. If they were on a 108 with no additional advance ground in, the thing wouldn’t rpm aggressively. If you really wanna freak yourself out, look at modern direct injection engines ground on 120+ LSA and with a few more degree’s added. Technology advances. Cam technology has really advanced on the last 20 years. The cam designers haven’t gotten it wrong. They’ve continued to make more and more power by moving around the opening and closing events.
@@MuscleCarSolutions My engine is a 400SBC with the 327 stroke. I have both offroad Z-28 reproduction cams and a crossram with both the dual and single tops (Offenhauser). The pistons are Icon flat tops with 2 valve reliefs. Ohio H-beam rods and 4130 crank. Aluminum heads with roughly 250 intake and 198exhaust flow at half inch lift., PAC springs and S/S valves. I am not any expert on LSA and I trust David Vizard and he is in agreement with Cattledog Garage (look him up on RUclips). Cattledog in one video rebutss a cam "expert" and in 2 videos he explains the LSA and his formula for calculating via cubic inch, normally aspirated on gasoline. I purchased Billy Godbold's book and I am very disappointed as he really does not get into LSA. Maybe he will do another covering just this topic but at my age, I am not holding my breath. So, I have used the formula and will be getting Camcraft in N. Carolina to grind a reproduction Z-28 offroad cam at 108 degrees. Both offroad OEM cams are112 degrees. Until this all comes together in my '56 Belair Sportcoupe with 4.10Pontiac rear and Richmod Super Street 5 Speed transmissioon, I will not be manking any changes. I still have to try both cams out before deciding which version I will get Camcraft to grind with a 108 LSA. In the meantime, I am mainly offering what I know and not trying to mislead anyone. I do thank you for your reply. It is appreciated.
shouldn't the measuring base be on the granite also?
On the fixture? No need. It’s the lifter we wanted to make sure wouldn’t cause any deviation in the reading. The stand is endlessly adjustable. It just needs to be solid in holding the gauge.
Thank you for covering that...as long as there is a flat-head motor out there being built ... I'm sure there always be a flat tappet cam being there for build assembly....good content and thanks
I honestly hope that the flat tappet option remains available for folks that choose to run one. Just not sure if the industry is going to continue to offer them. I know comp spent a ton on the DLC research and those have helped significantly. But beyond that, if the cam cores aren’t available or they have to come from India or China then that will be the last option.
After watching your testing of crown, I did the same test on a new set of Comp hyd flat tappet lifters, but after zeroing out the dial indicator I measured the outer edge at noon, 3 o'clock, 6 and 9. My lifters have an "oval crown" on them. I also found on Comp's website that they had lifter bore grooving tool to give the bore a small groove to allow oil to spill onto the lobe before it gets pressure to the lifter. Have you ever tried one ? your thoughts please.
you should have your indicator base should be on the surface plate with the V-block
@@brucejacobsen5809 no. The base placement has no bearing on how the dial measures as long as it’s solidly fixed.
@@MuscleCarSolutions Exactly, yours is not solidly fixed. That steel bar under your surface plate is flexible
I have never heard of this but, I'm curious, Do you know if mfgs. make an oversize lifter, and can you machine lifter bores to correct for wear?
Lifter bores can be sleeved back down to their factory size. In some blocks yes, they will sometimes use a larger body lifter but that’s generally not on factory blocks. Aftermarket it’s not uncommon.
@@MuscleCarSolutions Thanks for the imfo. much appreciated.
What taper matches what crown?
Should cam and lifters be bought as a kit? To assure a match?
And what about “cool face” lifters?
I think if you keep the brand the same you’re likely ok. Easy thing would be to ask the manufacturer if the crown and taper match. You got me on the cool face. What is it? 😆
Awesome info As always.
Thanks man.
I absolutely believe lifter bore trueness is one of the culprits behind all the failures. Most blocks have been through thousands of heat cycles and the bores can definitely become egg shaped. Plus, we take these blocks to the engine shop and they always hot tank them. So, more heat.
This is why I always tell the shop to HONE the lifter bores. It only costs a few dollars and it's cheap insurance. Also, check the lifter bodies for correct spec. When a lifter hangs or rotates poorly in a bore, bad things are gonna happen!
Best solution....just go roller cam and sleep well at night. 😁👍
It’s for sure a consideration that few think about. It’s such a critical part of the equation and so neglected.
I don't understand why roller lifters are so much more expensive than flat tappets. I understand there is a little with the roller part of the lifter and the link bar. But some roller cam sets are in the $1k+ range.
Why?
I’m not sure I’m capable of explaining that. It’s pretty obvious if you have them both in hand to see how much more manufacturing is needed to make and assemble a roller lifter.
A very good flat tappet lifter sold by GM in my country Germany costs here 275 Euros PER LIFTER! A good flat tappet here is much more expensive compared to a top quality set of rollers
Anytime u want to share what u know. 👍
That’s why I love RUclips! We all learn from each other! ✌️
I question puting your dialgage fixture off to the side, insted of on the surface plate. Great video's!!!
The fixture is magnetically locked in place. Granite won’t secure it.
its an adjustable stand. theres no benefit to putting it on the plate
I am not talking about adjustability. How is that steel plate attached to the surface plate? I am talking about flexibility.
The reason for having the indicator fixed to the plate is because most plates are not planer top and bottom unless purchased that way. But your error on .842 diam is small.
@@scottmuller1901 the zero of the gauge doesn’t occur at the base. It’s made on the gauge. There’s endless ways to mount the fixture. The final calibration will always be made at the gauge. You could mount it upside down if you had an area to attach it to. Doesn’t matter. It is still adjusted at the gauge.
You talked about progress. Right in front of you is real progress for us. That is the DLC lifter. DLC stands for Diamond Like Coating. This is a plasma coating right from the top of the aerospace world. I had a cam go flat after 1.5 years so I upgraded to a Comp Cams cam and lifters, standard lifters. The first 3 went flat in 5 minutes. Then I watched a video about DLC lifters and their tests. I already had the 4th replacement cam from Summit at the house. I called Summit and asked if I could exchange and pay the difference for the DLC lifters. They said OK. Since then I have had no problems. DLC is almost as hard as a diamond and since made of carbon is very slippery. I have since looked at the lifters 2 times and the cam. The lifters look like they were never used and the cam looks like it is micro polished. Save your money, only use DLC lifters. I called Summit with the success and suggested they advertise this. Two weeks later on You Tube I see Summit ads for DLC lifters. I was very happy as I do not want other people to blow away mass money on roller cams, lifters, and pushrods if there is an easy way out and DLC is it. Go read the tests that Comp Cams did on the Spintron. No matter the spring pressure, rpm, or abuse they did not care.
The problem is obviously materials. DLC is the best solution to the problem especially for those who do not have endless money.
I don’t doubt the DLCs lifter to be a significant change in lifter tech. I was one of the first to review it. But after 4-5 cam failures, it’s probably time to look at what’s causing the failure. We talked about that in the lifter videos in this series. If the DLC is masking the reason for failure, eventually it’s going to expose itself and incorrectly it will be blamed on the part and not the situation it’s asked to operate in.
Nissan engines that use the DAMB system direct-bucket under cam now all have DLC buckets under the cams. Nobody ever talks about the non roller modern DOHC systems and I’ve looked inside some ford 3.6 v6s that use that system and you can see visible wear appearing on the buckets as they rotate very similarly to flat tappets. After about 150k miles they start to tick and become noisy and the only way to adjust is to shim or shave. Nissan started the DLC coating system I believe in 2020. No issues heard yet
Just sent back a set of Howards lifters that had more peaks and valleys than West Virginia!! Worst shit I have ever seen! Going to use a set of Isky lifters I have on hand and have them re-ground for the camshaft I'm using.
Also, you have to go around the entire perimeter of the lifter. The set I had was all over the place from .001 to .0025, with a couple over .003.
Howards claims to use a 4060" radius, but it's a radius, not just some pointed peak in the center.
I made mention in the video that it was measured 5 different times on each lifter. For times sake, I just showed the one. The only one I had any discrepancy on was the Crower.
There is only one flat tappet lifters manufacturer in the US they make them all
@@Doug-b4p Delphi and Topline are the two biggest. There’s three others that are much smaller but produce some automotive flat tappets. All made in the US.
Camshaft and lifters have to be the same tapers once they are broke in are married to each individual lobe
@@davidwindhausen6194 flat tappet camshaft lobes have taper. Lifters have crown.
Having followed this video series, its got me concerned about my own flat tappet cam & lifters. I didn't know all this stuff when i slapped it ('63 292) together.
I might not even run with the cam and swap it out with a roller before breakin. Not sure, whats another 1k on roller cam, lifters, and rockers in a 3.5k block. 🥲
Joking mostly aside.
What i will do though is pull the lifters and have them measured as they are super easy to acces. While ive got the rockers loose I'd replace the rocker studs with threaded ones as my spring pressure went up from 190 to 230.
It’s a lot to get right. Knowing is half the battle though! If your machinist is good, they’ll help you get the right plan together.