Gay Parenting: Promise and Pitfalls | Dave Rubin | EP 266
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
- Dave Rubin is the creator and host of The Rubin Report. He is the author of Don’t Burn This Book and Don't Burn This Country, and the co-founder of the community building platform Locals.
In this episode, Dave Rubin and I discuss the evolution of his lifestyle, the recent Leftist push of transgender ideology, and much more.
If you want to hear the rest of my conversation with Dave Rubin, please go to www.dailywire.com/watch and become a member today. Thanks.
- Chapters -
(0:00) Coming up
(0:47) Intro
(3:01) What it means to be Gay
(6:08) The need for being a parent, and the rarity of exception
(7:44) Role models and “brotherhood of the marginalized”
(8:42) Inklings of starting a family
(9:53) This is an important conversation
(11:09) What marriage is
(13:48) Psychological health through partnership
(15:29) How Rubin was able to have a child
(20:38) A family with two fathers, what does that mean?
(21:25) Paternal and maternal parental roles
(24:12) Realities of what might be lacking, and how to mitigate
(25:59) Sustained adolescence is an important factor
(28:00) Historically associated flamboyance, seeds of normalcy
(30:22) Secular acceptance is necessary to mitigate fetishizing cardinal desire
(32:44) Are all families equal? Falling short of the ideal
(35:35) Shirking the ideal is not the answer for the margins
(38:11) Who should society stop from having kids?
(40:34) The conversation must be acceptable, even if uncomfortable
(42:50) Genetic similarity is an important factor
(47:48) Trying to live towards the most inherent good
(50:09) Losing truth and false unification
(51:35) Ken Zucker, the victimized 80 percent
(53:50) The trans movement is extremely anti-gay
(56:03) The banning of conversion therapy
(58:44) Dave Rubins role in our changing culture
(59:52) When you change fundamental structures…
(1:01:48) You are villainized even for studying gender dysphoria
(1:03:51) All encompassing tolerance is really a complete lack of discipline
(1:07:08) Creativity is an abundant trait among LGBT people
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Being a person raised with two moms in the early 90's when that was unheard of , & now being an adult , in my personal experience i can say a child needs to be raised by a mother & a father. The nuclear (mother & father) family is pivotal . This doesn't mean i lacked any love or nurturing , but i missed out on what a father bring to a table. Love that this conversation is being had regardless of someone's stance on it.
Fair comment and I don't want to pry but I am guessing that you were the product of a previous relationship of your biological mum, who later ended up with another woman? Not the result of any scientific intervention like a sperm doner and artificial insemination? You don't have to answer.
Totally agreed, having both, a father and a mother, is ideal. But in real life, just like you described, things are often not ideal.
I grew up in a divorced family with a father who never gave a damn for my existence, so I definitely feel a huge part was missing. Far from ideal for sure, different from your situation yet similar in this sense.
I like what Jordan and David said about the ideal: “ We all fall short of the ideal.” At some level, we all have to learn to compensate for some deficiencies. So, the point here is not to condemn anyone, but to learn and make it work in a healthy and successful way at the society level.
@@flora5398 It might work well for Dave Rubin. He is very well off and the child is probably blessed, but the average gay relationship can be quite volatile and hedonustic. When every gay couple feels entitled and demands renting a womb, the female body becomes a commodity and many will become groomed and exploited.
Eh, I think that's in your head. Fathers and mothers are all unique
A child is always going to have a longing in their heart for their biological parents. A healthy mother and father is the best thing for a child. Hands down.
Yes, but gay people can only adopt so he’s not stealing a kid from a family that loves them. But giving them a home instead of moving from foster home to foster home. It’s all about context and I promise he will give a better home to a child with a more fulfilled childhood than what foster care could give in return
%100
Evolution.
@@richfoster4369 gays can also have kids via in-vitro. It’s not a simple dichotomy. In addition, we also don’t have full data on the repercussions of children growing up in same sex households. Not being able to see how those relationship work, the lack of getting to see how different genders operate within relationships, etc. it may not matter in the long run if the household is stable, the long term repercussions can be problematic for these kids. The fact of the matter is, for people like Dave Rubin, they are pulling these kids into these situations, these children don’t have a choice in the matter; any damage these children receive growing up is on these parents.
Yes, foster care is broken, but kids do find good parents in foster care too.
@@greyknight627 "it may not matter in the long run if the household is stable,"
You can't seriously believe that, can you?
Personally speaking (as a gay man), I would never intentionally deprive a child of their mother. The mother/child relationship is the only constant relationship throughout time and culture. And even though my mother was a traumatised crazy person, I’m still great full I had a mother.
"The mother/child relationship is the only constant relationship throughout time and culture. "
Mmmmmh, no it isn't. Just take a look at how the richer mothers would give their child to the nurse and barely take care of them.
It makes no difference to have a mother or not.
I mean, fair enough. But adopting implies that the child already not in an ideal situation and already lacks a mother
I agree, my mother was crazy to put it mildly, but the fact some straight couples are crazy is a total non sequitur.
I am not going to be a gay dad, I ask what I can do for a child, not what a child can do for me. So no pets or kids for me.
I am not convinced a gay couple is worse than, for the sake of example, a single mom. But the question needs to be answered with evidence, not by loud activists.
It simply doesn't seem right. Glad this couple has the resources to do it, but why go through so many hoops only to bring children to the world without mothers? They've had to hire so many surrogate mothers: egg donors, the surrogates themselves, breastmilk donors, night nurses etc., yet there is still no real mother to have a mother-child relationship with. It's a sad state of affairs. Adopting would have been better.
@@Nonalhomophobie And do you see how those children without a present mother turn out?
Jordan always makes me cry. Every realization I’ve gained from his perspectives are deeply ingrained within me and I’m forever grateful for this mans life.
Homosexual behavior is depravity. Every one has a conscious. That is
the tool used to make choices; or judgement calls.
@@paulanelson1629 What does this mean?
@@paulanelson1629 Homosexuality is no behavior and it is not depraved.
He’s gotten me to think deeply about a lot of things and put some others into perspective so well, I couldn’t articulate them better if I tried. He’s truly a one of a kind and very grateful for him.
Homosexuality is definitely a behavior.
On the breast feeding and intelligence point: Dave said he has two freezers for breast milk because they’ve done their research but it may not be just the breast milk nutrients alone that causes the increased IQ points but also the nurturing/closeness that occurs during breast feeding.
Yes. Macroeconomic view of emotional bond with both gender parents is IMPORTANT
Possibly the least they could do is to include the biological mothers in the family ...even to the point of breastfeeding.
@@clarkwatson3217 That is correct in a way, nothing increases IQ *potential*, but many things increase IQ.
Sorry. If that was the case 75% of America would be lacking.
Breastfeeding is Not common any more..
Mom's body actually makes custom antibodies for baby in real time based on what she absorbs from baby's saliva. It's astonishing.
I still cannot live at peace with the fact that we've reduced women and men to sperm donors/ egg donors/ pregnancy carriers/ breast milk makers... With all due respect to what Dave said I wonder if he would have the "luxury" to choose a surrogate mother from a variety of women if no money was involved. In fact, very few countries allow paid surragacy and even in the permissive, highly egalitarian Scandinavian countries it's illegal. We will never know the truth about how it affects children because all academic research is biased to prove that gay parents are just as good as a mother and father. That said, I appreciate these honest people, Jordan and Dave, who discuss these tough issues in a sincere way.
so true. Its hubris, in my opinion. We are down a slope i dont know how we going to claw ourselves out of.
Even i feel its a bit icky.
You can thank Peterson for not bringing up woman's dignity, too.
You are a hypocrite..you either support or don't.. when you don't agree with any of what Dave said ,you simply don't appreciate the conversation and its ok. Why are you confusing people with your stance ?
@@amirbagali8414 a hypocrite speaks his mind truthfully? Stop projecting
How a bsolutely WONDERFUL to listen to these men talk about something so difficult without arguing and becoming angry and bitter. This is awesome . Love both of these men.
Whether you are a proponent of gay marriage or not, you have to respect Dave's attitude and willingness to discuss this. Same to Jordan. Whether you agree or not, you shouldn't hate the other person, but rather be willing to listen and discuss. Props to both.
I agree. I have always questioned if the children of gay parents would automatically be indoctrinated toward a gay predilection. I don't know the answer, but it's great that these questions can be asked without hatred for being curious
@@frenchappletarte3252 I know I'm gay since I was 7-8 yo, I was born in the late 80 and always seen straight couples kiss, and also my mother and father.
@@frenchappletarte3252 the answer is no
@@frenchappletarte3252 I find it so interesting how people think being Gay is like a being Christian like you can just become one and then live your life that way lol
@@spliced7383 it's naturally a point of confusion for a few reasons. I have witnessed gay men flirt with straight men and joke (not joke) that they were trying to 'turn' them. If a gay man thinks a person can be 'turned', then maybe homosexuality is a choice. There's also the nature vs nurture question. If homosexual behavior is biological and natural selection is a reality, how could homosexuality be hardwired biologically? No hate here, just observations and thoughts.
I would love to see you two have this talk again in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, and 20 years
Great idea
That’s what I was thinking…
Just my thoughts, but I don’t believe any child would be like
“yes, this is a great idea…let’s be born in this way.”
Just because he and his partner CAN do all of this doesn’t necessarily mean they
SHOULD do this and that it will turn out well
@@iaintwonderwoman5720 there is a reason we don't let children have that kind of power, it creates a generation of gender confused weirdos who want to lop off their boobs.
Right now it's all theory. The reality is never what you expect and I want to see them address it.
This should be higher
"You're not truly mature until you have someone in your life who is more important than you are."
True wisdom so rarely spoken
This is a contradiction.
For someone in your life to be well, you need to be well to be able to give them everything you got, so you are still the most important for you.
There is a reason on a flight, you don't put the mask on your children first, but yourself first.
Well said Ivanov! Self Uber alles
your not mature until you realize your every action goes beyond oneself.
Greays still should bit have kids for several reasons!
Rubin is a fake concervativ!
maybe the reasons for doing your best is for that other person however
I wish all people had wisdom to discuss important issues in such a civilized and respectful manner: exchange of experience and knowledge, logical thinking, empathy, the desire to really understand the problem and find ways to solve it. These conversations are priceless.
My experience being raised by two dads. My biological mom is my dads sister me and her are very close and i have four sisters one was adopted before the rest of us was born. My parents are professionals and gave us an amazing life. One dad is a nurse the other one a maths teacher at university. We lived and live better than most people I know. My dads have been together for 28 years but got married in 2015. So it’s pretty stable one one dad was bad cop the other was good cop.
Do you realise that what are you mumbeling there does not makes sense?
I'm happy to hear that your parents gave you a good life.
That story reeks of bot propaganda.
@@RetroMMA he just described his life anything that opposes your narrow world wiev is propaganda right?
@@ejejenrnjrejhsndjjeekbeehh8435 Narrow world view? Every Democrat and most of the entire world was against gay marriage not so long ago - what changed? Did we suddenly become a more enlightened society or is something else at play here?
People as a whole are weak minded and absolutely affected by propaganda. It was demonstrated with Project Mockingbird and (most especially) the lefts insistence on shutting down free speech, not reporting on it or the 'othering' of people that resist their radical views?
They mentioned that there's a connection that a child has with their biological parent which is hard to describe. But then they didn't extend that to the biological mother. You can't erase the fact that those kids will, in reality, have a biological parent out there, in the world, that they are connected to biologically, but have no contact with. I believe that matters
Edit: Just to clarify, there's a contradiction here, which is that biological relatedness is so important that a gay couple should pursue this way of having kids. But at the same time, the biological relatedness of the resulting child to the biological parent that won't be in their life is regarded as not important. That's the point. Either it's important, or it's not. If it is, then you're taking the child away from a parent. If it's not, then why pursue this? Why not just adopt?
yes of course it matters
Also the breastfeeding thing. The reason why it's effective might have to do more with the connection with the mother, than with the substance of breast milk. So having the milk from the bottle might not work as well.
Not everyone gets to know their biological parents (for any number of reasons), and they still somehow manage to live happy fulfilled lives.
Greays should not have kids for several reasons....
Rubin is a fake concervativ and an egocentric BS'er!
@@lucasdarianschwendlervieir3714 infant monkey study proves this.
The connection is more important!
I think an even more important conversation underlies the gay parenting one, and that would be the ethics of SURROGACY.
Well said!
how is the ethics of surrogacy in question?
"Surrogacy" is newspeak hiding the truth of "rich people buying babies".
@@AMan-xy3lx taking away a baby from a mother? They are already bonding in a very early stage of the pregnancy, the body is fully prepared for the baby like the breasts for example, i would rather die than give my child away
Surrogacy commercialises human body parts, i.e. the uterus. It’s on a slippery slope and creates a market for exploitation.
Not being able to have children after completing my physician training obligations was a very disturbing and difficult situation for me. No longer is it taboo for women in medicine to have children during training. During my career, I hope I had a strong impact about this issue for the multitude of female medical students and residents who came for training at a major teaching medical center in Boston. I also find peace in helping my siblings out by interacting often these 30 years with my nieces and nephews. Rescuing dogs and cats have also been part of my therapy. Anyone who wants but could not have children can have a great life.
Adopting a child WAS not allowed by a single female or when married, after the age 40. It is much better availability these days.
Awe. I'm sorry sorry as a doc I can relate to the training and the difficulty it is to have kids during training. Kudos to you for finding peace with your decision to wait til after but then be unable and for helping other young doctors to forge ahead with personal decisions before it is too late and not worry about judgement!!
I personally quit a surgery resi when the chief said,, we can't have kids til we are done (in 5 years) I said f y and quit. And transferred to anesthesia and was pregnant first month. I'd never have done it differently. I couldn't have handled the pregnancies at an older age. Plus I was too educated to know how much more risky it was to wait. Seems to be off the gay couple topic but again much respect to you. And I think we each feel diff about whether one can be whole and complete without having a child and that applies to gay couples. Can life be wonderful? Sure! But I think each Soul, has a different path , and none of us can ever be in another's body and walk their path on this earth this go around (soul wise)
@@venesaingold9390that’s soo horrible a married couple should always have the right to adopt. How are kids suppose to be raised ethically and with morals if they aren’t expose to it?? So stupid!
@@venesaingold9390oh my bad my bad you said after the age of 40 okay I thought it was frowned upon to adopt in general!
I can relate. I'm not a doctor but I spent a good amount of time in school and have found myself single and childless in my 30s. I could still meet someone and have a family but the chances are smaller every day. It's great that you've taken your energy and invested it in your nieces, nephews, and students. I'm sure it has not gone to waste.
My daughter and her 3 young sons just moved in with us. (she fled an abusive relationship) I hadn't seen two of them in like 3 years and I never met the youngest. But I can attest that children are sensitive to people that are sensitive to their needs. The father was obviously abusive but mom is struggling and is disconnected on some levels with the children. (she is in counseling) however, the boys are thriving because my husband and I are plugged in. Discipline through love. They are happy and secure. I will continue to support her recovery and pray the father gets his crap fixed. The boys need both parents. But I will be damned if those children will go back to living their former lives. As one Christian woman to another God does not want us to stay in abusive relationships. Long-lasting relations aren't always happy ones.
He wont change. She can find a good partner who will father them. She needs to heal first though.
I agree with you that no one should stay in an abusive relationship. Children can benefit a lot from their Grandparents.
@@carolmartin8781 ❤️ the middle grandson, who is super shy and recluse, hung out with me and drew like 7 pictures of him and I holding hands with hearts all over it. And boy he was talking up a storm. I'm already seeing a positive change.❤️
@@kesakary I'm glad things are going well with your grandson. One of my grandchildren was sexually abused and abandoned by her parents at age three. She stayed with me, and the first year we did art projects together on a daily basis. She didn't like doing art alone, and insisted that I participate. It was just as therapeutic for me as it was for her. Take care.
I'm so glad she had you both to rely on. Obviously, she needed to escape those binds, since you hadn't been able to see them in so long. Disfunction does NOT love company. All the best to you.
I'm not sure if I am going to watch this whole conversation... JP has talked so much about parenting and the importance of mothers being home for young children... But Dave is his friend and I'm not sure JP will push back against a couple bringing a child into a mother-less home. Is it ok to use a womans body to carry and birth a baby, and then take that baby and put it in a home with no mom?
Perhaps JP will say that if one partner is motherly then it's ok. Idk. Certainly children have grown up without moms before, or without dads. But usually that's circumstantial. Should we intentionally bring children into the world into that situation?
Your body your choice?
@@franklinfleming1237 care to elaborate?
@@ngerstner753 if u can or want to have a baby.. do it. If u want to give baby away do it. Same difference as dad/ farther. Not all women can be mothers.. but most can have children. Humans adopt animals don't. Babies should have mother and father. Would like to see studies on children raised by same sex couples.
@@franklinfleming1237 I'd like to see those studies too.
If even his daughter doesn't follow his advice why would a stranger
Jordan you are looking very healthy. I’m enjoying watching your journey.
funny you said "journey", cos' his face looks like a road-map!!
What a lovely thing to say! And I'm happy to agree. Just wanted to thank you for doing what many don't....for actually stating the compliment and happy comment. 🌻🌱
Two wonderful people having an honest conversation is all I ever asked for.
One of the best conversations I have ever seen in my life. Both of these humans are beautiful and extremely intelligent.
You need to be more ambitious
This is a great example of how to have a conversation about a challenging topic without bringing ideology into the mix. It is this type of level-headed, logical exploration that will bring us back from the current political morass.
I have a friend who was given up for adoption at four months by a mother who badly wanted to keep him. Though he was adopted by a wonderful, loving family, he yearned to be reunited with his biological mother. He finally met her again when he was 53. He told me that he knew her smell, he knew the feel of her skin and he knew her voice before she spoke. The point is, there is more between a baby and his/her mother than we know and should that connection be disregarded to satisfy the wants of adults who want an instant family? Kids aren’t a possession.
This conversation is a minefield that is dressed up as something that can be intellectually navigated. I don’t have the answer any more than Dr. Peterson and Dave Rubin do but I do think it’s wrong to experiment with a child’s life.
Dave is a fake pro lifer. He is purposely ripping two babies from their biological mothers for his own selfish desires. His husband and him are hypocritical gay men that envy women.
Your friend's situation sounds devastating to both mother and baby...But what point are you making about all of the children whose mothers do want/need to give them up? Those children need families. I cannot understand why some people oppose gay couples adopting, when there are so so many religious nuclear families who say "adopting just isn't right for us." Why can't we think about what's at least next best for kids?
@@kellymckay544 i think that there’s importance in the intentions. Even though in principle it is the same, a child separated from his/her mother, one is an alternative from a bad situation (a mother can’t care for the baby, for any reason) vs a couple actively searching and creating the circumstances (egg donor, Ivf, surrogacy and all in between) in order for them to have a baby. In my opinion, the first scenario is trying to lessen the pain/bad situation and the second is creating it
@@marianescamilla oh yeah I Kinda understand your point
@@marianescamilla You are right in a way. They are creating the situation. Maybe adopting kids in the system may be more ideal. But all the criticism, though it may be fair, it's also not put on straight people. Forty percent divorce, many kids are in unstable situations ect. The criticism is in relation to an ideal that most don't achieve. So it may be fair, it's also not easy to put that ideal onto gay people without realising it's complicated.
I think we need to address the trauma a baby feels being separated from it's birth mother. If couples want to adopt -great! But just because babies can't later remember their birth, it does still shape their first impressions of the world and makes a subconscious impact. I've helped people in therapy specifically work through this anxiety and fear of abandonment. And having worked in drug rehabilitation centers, I know that almost half of the kids of our facility were adopted as children. Most of them grew up not knowing they were adopted -yet it obviously had an emotional impact! And these kids all came from wealthy families with all the best resources.
Babies in the womb know their mother's scent, voice and heartbeat. If that child is never held by it's mother and handed to a new couple - it's still going to instinctively know that mother is missing - gone!
Choosing that when you don't have to is creating new suffering in the world. I think you can only believe surrogacy is an act of love out of total ignorance.
So what are you suggesting?
Whelp the kid's going to suffer, better end it's life!
Wait, isn't this the argument from the pro-choice people?
@@adamgates1142 I'd suggest adoption or becoming foster parents over surrogacy. There is no reason the parent's desire/instinct for biological children should outweigh the wellbeing of an infant. It's cruel to create fresh trauma in the world where it's not necessary.
@@melindawolfUS What's the difference? Your entire point is that they are missing their biological mother, right?
Sorry my mistake I see now you're saying to not bring an additional child into the world when we already have plenty of parentless children. I can agree with that. What do you think of abortion?
That was painful.... On one hand I admire Jordan's open, non judgemental style, but fully embracing surrogacy for rich and famous is something else.
Basically, if you have enough money, you can "create" children and redefine family to your liking, and call yourself a hero, right?
There is something deeply troubling with this type of mindset, I think.
Yup, the rich can rent poor people's bodies and it is progressive. Seems like a brutal dystopian world to me.
I agree. It seems too dark
@lwf51 I don't think it is about judging people. I think it is about wondering what the ethical pitfalls to the "right to have child" are.
There are really bad straight parents, but we are not thinking abou it that much because they naturally procreate. It's not like we can sterilize them... although, some people would argue on it.
I would say ethically, the gay parent model is different because we help gay people to have the child. There is a mercantile aspect to it. It is tricky.
Your looking too much into it...
Correct. A child needs a mother and a father, period. He's wrong on this one.
What a warm, refreshing , honest and vulnerable conversation. Thank you Jordan and Thank you Dave. I myself diverge some, whilst still loving the individual, due to my Biblical exhortations.
Thank you again.
The kids will be lucky not to come out wrong from this.
@@Duster29to86 that’s very ignorant thinking especially since research and literature has shown that children raised by same sex couples seem to do a lot better but of course the same can be said with heterosexual couples it just about GOOD parenting at the end of the day
@@proudtuber2114 where's the research? Curious how many kids were in the study and what ages.
Which version of the bible?
@@gozerofgozmis4181 dont start with that shit be respectful nobody insulted your beliefs or opinions so fallback.
Imagine being a baby. All you've know for your entire life of 9 months is your mother. Her heartbeat, her voice muffled through flesh, her energy, her love, her hand on belly on you, her soft womb.
You go through the birth process, the most wild otherworldly transition, just you and her.
You are suddenly thrust into the world and where is she? Where is the smell and sound and heartbeat and skin and energy and love of the only human you know? The one you are primed in every atom of every cell to be held by in this moment, nursed by, adored by.
You're thrust on to some strangers.
Your primal body thinks your mother is dead. Thats what registers. Terror. Something is wrong. Where is my mother, my everything? You never feel, see, hear, taste your mother again.
The most profound abandonment wound that will shape every aspect of you for the rest of your life. Surrogacy is not okay.
Imagine growing a baby for 9 months. Growing a whole new organ for her. Weaving her together from the nourishment of your flesh and blood and spirit. Feeling nauseous and exhausted and swollen. Feeling her kick
and hiccup and squirm. Feeling the fear of what labour might bring. Going through the intensity of birth, from the early sensations to the "I'm can't do this" to the ring of fire, to then hear your baby cry... The one that
EVERY CELL IN YOUR BODY is longing to hold, kiss, smell, meet.... And see this baby passed to some one else.
To have a doctor reach inside you to yank out your placenta, to have your soft tender belly violently "massaged", to have just done the most miraculous thing, but have no squirmy baby on your chest. To feel the
chasm between the most primal biological love you've ever known, and the intellectual idea that "oh no, thats not my baby, that's their baby.
To be wheeled away to heal and have no baby.
To feel your swollen leaky breasts and have no baby.
To feel the rawness of your v@gina but have no baby.
To bleed for weeks but have no baby.
To feel your infected C-section scar, and have no baby.
Did you learn this at bible studies?
WOW, I never thought of it from that perspective before, Daisy. Even being married for 36 years and as a father of four and knowing the deep & different connection my wife has with the kids I never thought about what it would be like for the CHILD to have that bond shattered. Thank you.
@@dnd6379 As much as I probably agree with the stance you are probably insinuating through that response I also think this response is ludicrously dumbed down to the points being raised
I don't think we are prepared to consider this point fully, as a society. But, it hunk you are forgetting that newborns have an amazing gift of not remembering what happened to them for the first 3 or so years. Look to all those people who turned out ok and happy even though they had to grow up without their biological mom from the start of their life... What you describe make sense, but it is not the defining factor in how person's life will turn out to be in my opinion.
This is too much like buying and selling humans to me from the child to the surrogate mother, etc. People are not commodities. Children are a gift, not a right, and deserve to be raised by their biological mother and father in a committed, loving relationship. While families do not always live up to these standards, it should be the expectation and ideal. While single parents or same-sex couples may try to fill the need for care a child needs, they will always be lacking, and it should not be a situation that is voluntarily created.
Exactly, the kid suddenly has no access to the person that birthed them, person that they were hearing everyday for 9 months, person that they have strong bond with and that bond is broken now. That can't be good for the development of the child.
JBP literally doesn't care about your opinion, sadly.
@@Levi_Manifesto That seems like a fair point, and that bond exists in the mother as well changing how she interacts with the child.
@@Levi_Manifesto and it can't be good for the mother either.
Amen.
One of the most fascinating conversations I've ever heard. Two incredibly articulate intelligent and interesting men having an open conversation. The world needs more of this.
As a fairly recent switched to conservative gay man, this has been the most helpfully enlightening and cementing of the thoughts and fears I’ve had about where I fit in society as a conservative gay man and the issue of ideological grooming/butchering of children.
Thank you so much Dave and Andrew… the work your both doing is paramount to saving our country and society as a whole.
Based and gay.
I listen to Rubin and Peterson regularly. Don’t agree with everything but I believe listening to Dave helps gay people give themselves an option other than this wok ideology. For this, we can be grateful.
It is not just the eggs, Dave. Women carry babies for around 9 months in their bodies paying a big price in terms of their health and sharing nutrients from their own bodies. The levels of stress that women may experinece during their pregnancy also impact whether certain genes get triggered in fetus itself. Higher levels of stress in a pregnant woman= significantly higher probability of health and development related issues. There are multiple studies available that show this link. So it is not just sourcing the egg for fertilization but also growing developing that egg in the womb.
@@monikagolab8892 men create, women nurture.
@@h-dawg6462 no women create life
@@h-dawg6462 Both men and women create and nurture.
I’m pretty sure he’s aware of all that. And that the wonderful ladies who are having the babies are well looked after and appreciate the financial side of this transaction
@@monikagolab8892 It doesn't seem that women create life. Women don't experience creating a person. But they certainly experience carrying and bringing the life into the world.
God is the Creator.
Children don't like shifting primary caregivers...I can attest to that. I've been a nanny in many different types of households. One thing in common, the kids all had behavioral issues. Well, except one family where the mom was working from home and they knew she was there for them. My heart breaks for kids who see mommy leave for a job that she doesn't actually need.
Indeed! I've seen countless children negatively impacted in this way (maternal deprivation, attachment wounds, emotional neglect, etc) in my work with young children and their families.
Titus 2.
I hated that my mother worked all my life. I whish she was there for me. When I have kids i definitely want to work as little as possible to give them my love and attention. I have often wondered if our drepression and anxiety crisis stems from not having our mothers with us as children.
@@luannesantana9430I wonder this as well. And weak or unavailable fathers, too.
@@Sisterlisk Yes, I agree. Parents should be stable and reliable to their children.
What an honest insightful conversations. Dave, I admire your courage to discuss this and have this discussion with Jordan Peterson. It was so intense and relevant, truly enlightening and worth the time, heterosexual or gay.
May there be more difficult topic discussions with such insightful and respectful chat. Thank you Jordan and Dave
Well this is going to be interesting. On a side note, Jordan is looking very healthy. Glad to see him doing well. God bless you.
@@joeschmo6834 You mean anti-depressants? You make it sound as if he's known for binging cocaine. You're also wrong. He is still taking a psychotropic medication
Yes..he looks great…makes me so happy..how I adore this man!
@@lolcano2346 it was opiates, pain drugs, the same stuff junkies use but you can use your insurance to pay for it. Getting off that stuff is hard, don't down play that
@@tonytomato100 a) it was benzodiazapines
b) point to where I'm down-playing anything exactly?
@@Laocoon283 a) He took benzo's as prescribed by a mental health professional to address depression. You actually trying to compare that with what someone is typically referring to when they talk about substance abuse and addiction? gtfo
b) If that's your idea of 'getting high' then you're doing it wrong. Go get yourself a drinking problem or start smoking weed every day then get back to me mate
Deliberately creating a baby to supply gay men with a child, separating the baby from its mother.. does not feel okay.
It is too cruel.. and selfish.
Many say having 2 loving men is better than an abusive mother. If the mother is abusive, then certainly the child should be taken away. But for me, 2 men raising a child together through a surrogate is just not natural.
I recently met 2 men - 1 Af American and 1 Caucasian, who implanted 2 eggs with sperm from each. Isn't that alone a little egotistical? They have 2 girls, fraternal twins, of 2 skin colors. 7 years old when I met them.
I wondered how it will be when they get their period and start becoming women with body and hormonal changes. It just seemed very creepy to me, nice as the fathers seemed. And maybe some kids at school would be cruel and that would be an extra burden for them to bear.
what about surrogate moms who give their child to a hetero couple ? that's separation from the birth mother too.
I'm gay and my mother was an abusive narcissist. I'd take a second dad over her in a heartbeat.
@@purplebubblegum4055 also wrong… now how about you address the issue instead of trying to avoid it.
@@darkninja1693 I'm not trying to avoid it at all if I were trying to avoid it I wouldn't here in the comment section wasting my time especially when it's none of my business
I am loving every minute of this. Great conversation
Important conversation, thank you for having it sanely. So reasonable.
I'm traditional and realize the value and humane necessity of people such as Dr Peterson and Mr Ruben willing to explore this topic and related sub-topics. Well done!
I thoroughly love and respect the ""mind of the heart" of both these men. This is where wisdom is found for the sake of truth and the preservation of the sacred takes place.
I had a child with a lady, she struggled with some of her own demons and decided what was best for the child was to give up the baby. Her mother stepped in and took care of him with me. He knows his grandmother as mumma, and he knows his biological mom as his mother. He understands the difference now even at 5 years old. His grandmother is everything to him. He still enjoys seeing his biological mom but is not very attached.
@@Viriyascybin thank you. I love your taste in podcasts
she did so well with her daughter why not a redo? lmao
@@SkyValleyStuff Nothing wrong with trying again. We don't always get it right the first time.
The wisest person is the one who's made the most mistakes.
This is the age of Grandmothers long forgotten.
Time to remember her love, strength and kindness.
yeah but whats his wc lvl?
Thank you for these tough conversations. I'm a gay woman who loves kids but I don't think it would be good to raise a child without a father. I just think two women would smother the child and maker her/him soft. The lgbt community needs to stop pretending that science and gender differences aren't real. We need to wake up and talk about the truth..Not Lil nas x videos.
I personally think that God made the good gay and trans people to be extra caregivers, mentors and artistic geniuses. Think about how many great works of music, literature and art wouldn't exist without gay minds. Our solitude and outsider lifestyle helps make us who we are. I'm happy that society is more accepting but I wouldn't change who I am for anything. God bless you Dr. Peterson. Congrats on the baby Dave! I'm happy for you. I'm just expressing my personal opinion for my own life on choosing to not have kids.
As a same sex attracted woman as well, I do not want to have kids with another woman even if I feel compelled for the very same reasons you described above.
Its so refreshing to hear a self aware dissenting opinion on the topic. I dont necessarily agree but I respect your honesty and self examination.
@@monikagolab8892 if God actually did make mankind then that would mean he created me the way I naturally am which is gay. I was 100% born this way. I am spiritual but not very religious. I was brought up Catholic.
Check out Them Before Us, by Katy Faust! :)
The science says that children raised by same sex couples are not only in good condition but also likely do better in school, compared to heterosexual couples.
That's science, follow it if you speak so fondly of it
Jordan, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for what you do. I’m in my late 30’s and just finding out the wife and I can’t have children. I am very much feeling the things you talk about. I don’t want to adopt and can’t find words for why. It’s been a largely soul crushing time and these sorts of talks do help, if for no other reason, to at least obtain a reference point for where I am. So thank you again.
'Cant find words for why' you know exactly why you're just too poosy to say it.
I hope you find the meaning you are looking for. My wife and I were in a similar situation, We were not having children and after a long time trying learned from a specialist it would be virtually impossible naturally. We did have the option and means to support IVF, which was our only option after our insurance refused to pay for it. Now we are looking forward to brining new life into this world soon as he is will be born soon god willing.
I encourage you and your wife never to give up. I do not know your situation or what medically would cause that diagnosis. I would though encourage you to look for the future and what you and your wife can provide for this generation and ages to come.
We have changed our mind on having children too late. Then, to my surprise, I wasn't able to conceive naturally and time was of the essence. Now I'm pregnant with an egg from an anonymous donor and my husband's semen. That was the best option to have a baby as close to us (biologically) as possible. Somehow, none of us was too enthusiastic about adoption. Wish you good luck, there are various possible ways.
Best of luck to you sir
I don't know anything about you or your wife. Even if I did then it's not for anyone other than you two to decide whether you're going to be parents anyway. If it should happen to be the case that both of you would make great parents, then doing so is still the greatest thing you can do with your life. Not just because adoption provides a home for children who need one, but because after you're done raising them, you're going to send them out into the world. A world that all the rest of us live in. Do you believe that you'll send out someone who makes the world better or worse? If the answer is better then being distracted by the idea that adoption isn't your first choice might make you hesitant until the ship has sailed, and you could miss out on the most worthwhile thing that you could've done with your life....though to be clear it's not for me to tell you how you have to handle that.
As an Australian I have absolutely no idea who you are, but it appears to me that you will make a much better parent than many, many people I see in the world around me.
I think more research is needed on the impact on children being raised by gay parents. Especially since more gay couples are deciding to raise children. I knew a girl raised by Lesbians and she's been in therapy most of her life to this day. I don't think having babies should be a right, we are raising a very confused society.
The children of gay parents are usually molested as well. If we won’t protect the child from Dave and his “husband” then hopefully God will.
...EVERYBODY should be in therapy, but ok.
Brave New World. Nobody gets to tell people they don't get to have children.
Look into the Them Before Us group founded by Katy Faust. She was raised by same sex parents and presents the information thats usually glossed over about the negative effects from it. And it's a similar philosophy that children have the right to their parents, but adults don't have the right to have children.
@@RachelDee Jordan should bring her on for round 2 with Dave.
There is a really interesting book on this topic called "Them Before Us" which I think is pretty important for Gay parents to read and consider. I am adopted and there are many things that I feel about my situation that I will never be able to share with my adoptive parents out of fear of hurting them. They didn't do it to me, and while I am grateful for my life, and I love my family which was ideal in every way, I still experience a deep sense of loss and this feeling of being rootless. When a child is brought into this world disconnected from a biological parent that is a loss, and those parents trying to raise those children would be well served to understand it as such and be sensitive to that since there child is unlikely to ever express it honestly with them.
Thank you so much for sharing.
Your experience is a voice for such situations as this,
that should be heard.
If not, it remains very one sided.
NO one family is the ideal, but we all should at least try to be. The point, I think, We already opened up pandoras box, now we have to figure out how to best live with what was let out.
I too was adopted and I understand the feelings you shared. I found a road around it by making a decision in my early adult years to embrace my adopted family as my family. I found that making an intentional choice which I spoke out loud to myself allowed me the ability to bond my heart with my adopted family. My sister's who also are adopted haven't been able to make that choice and are still very much missing out in the bond that adoption can bring once the adopted makes that choice. What I still find lacking, even now at 46, is the love of a father (I was adopted by a single woman who was divorced). But I am learning that yhe Father's love is manifested in Christ, and I am learning to embrace it.
@@scintilae670 we can close it unless we are stupid and doomed to live in a hell of a society.
You are pro grooming
This was a wonderful, honest and responsible conversation. I, myself, have been exploring the nuance and consequence of this issue. It is very nice to hear these ideas and add them to my own. Thank you gentlemen.
William
The MIDWAY Project
This is a fantastic video. These men are two of my favorites to listen to.
Dave seems like a nice guy with good intentions and this was a great chat. I just never seem to feel comfortable when people talk about mixing and matching eggs and sperm and having surrogates and choosing a mother 'like it's tinder' and all that, it just feels so unnatural to the point where I feel that it becomes a purely selfish act for the couple and they are not considering how the child will feel having been created that way.
Sounds like eugenics
You feel like that because it’s true. Many years ago a saw a Simpsons episode where Homer says to Apu, who was trying very hard to have children and failing, “Children Happen”. I am not saying that fertility treatment is wrong, but people are willing to do so many bizarre stuff in order to have that “traditional family picture” they criticize so much. Sometimes you just can’t have certain lifestyles and it’s okay. Many of my grandma sisters have no children simply because they couldn’t find a husband in time. If you ask me thats harder than being homossexual, because you have everything there to have children its just that it didn’t happen because life is that way. People just want to be famous on instagram now.
As opposed to the millions of people choosing to be single parents or shoving their kids in care and working 12 hours a day?
Seriously. Their kids will be well loved and 100% cared for substantially better than any child from a single parent or kid in care almost the moment they are born..
His kids have family assisting.. which North America has forgot about doing..
His kids are growing up with two parents..
Im kind of in a same boat as you with the issue but, i also see the cultural shift and realise that, what we have had doesnt have to be. That being said, deep down i cant still accept it, even gay marriage. I am accepting it on pure rationale as ''it is not my place to deny gays to get married and have kids''.
At the end of the day, i am still part of the old culture with old thinking and i dont think it can be changed. Eventually death will change it and rest of the world moves on however it sees fit!
@@Nimai_Aquino Yes that's true, many of them want to destroy the traditional family while at the same time wanting to recreate it for themselves synthetically, it's very odd really. I know people who are getting older and have no husband and want kids and they seem heartbroken because they know the chance is slipping away, it is sad to see.
I wonder myself as a mother of 4 and currently nursing my 4 month old what that lack of connection might mean for a baby. Even if I don't always produce milk. my baby still nurses for comfort constantly. It's how he knows he is warm and safe because mommy is here. He actually begins to smile when he knows he is about to nurse and it calms him right down. Another thing as a mother I truly believe babies only need their mother. Children can need both but babies need mother. Mother is an infants entire world. They know only her...smell, taste, voice... Yes a mother is a baby's universe.
By now bad kids turn out from single mothers maybe they don’t need mothers
Naaah a fridge and night nurses will do!
@@joannasowinska6789
Bite your tongue.
You’re talking best case scenario but we all know mothers can be abusive, withholding and downright cruel. I loved and depended on my father for everything, he was my world, my mother and I had a very contentious relationship and we were never close until her later years when she became very ill, but my father was always the glue that kept our family together and that’s why if I had to choose between a mother or two dads I’d take the dads any day!
@@Hugatree1 i see, the opposite for me. Mother was my rock. Father was an evil person.
Egg donor = product
Surrogate = product
Child = product
Modern slavery
Surrogacy seems very dystopian to me. And it’s just the fact that you know it’s not coming from your partner, even if my prospective wife was unable to have children I still wouldn’t relegate that task for another woman to fulfill, it just feels immensely wrong, unethical, and emasculating even.
Those women sign up for it and are compensated. How is it unethical…
@@kkgarcia1153 just because someone consents to it doesn't make it ethical.
@@kkgarcia1153It's unethical for the child to be ripped from their mother at birth in exchange for a paycheck. Selfish beyond belief.
Surrogacy may "benefit" the "parents", but it is deliberately creating a child who will have a deep origin problem. We all naturally want to know where we came from, and that the origin connects us to security and love. No matter how much you read up about skin-to-skin contact, get in frozen breast milk etc, you can't replicate this. And in this case there's no mother, and bringing in some women to be around the baby doesn't fix that.
I find this tragic
Amen. There is a rationality behind God's commandments and now Western society is trying to change it with hubris and I personally feel that it is going to end like in Babel.
My thoughts exactly. We don't have children to fulfill our needs, but to fulfill theirs. Also, the ethical concerns behind surrogacy cannot be so easily dismissed and justified.
I know two donor children (both to lesbians) and they both have asked and wanted to meet thier biology dad. Worst part is their right was ripped as soon as their mothers signed on the dotted line.
There is a mother. But they chose to exclude her and she chose to exclude herself. Their motive is clear. Her motive was money, fair enough, or altruism. Either case I think it is deeply wrong. Like prostitution only she not only sold her body but her children.
We are more our bodies and blood than our popular culture addmits. Our bodies and who we literally come from matters. This is parenting like marraige before it becoming another vehicle of expressing personal prefrence. Only now say we love our children while throwing out one of their parents.
@@natashaharsh9793 yes. This is self love at the expense of child love as the first act of parenthood. It is a perverse inversion of the parent-child relationship; instead of the parent sacrificing for the child the child is robbed for the parent.
I have a question. The 5 IQ point for breastfed kids... is this related to spicifically being fed breast milk or is this intelligence increase related to the child creating a bond with the mother during breast feeding?
Breast feeding due to the omega-3 sustenance provided by the breast milk. Additionally, prenatal omega-3 absorption also helps. And it's important to note that it's perfectly fine to breastfeed up until 4.
It's because more intelligent mothers care enough to breast feed.
*specifically
They don’t know. At least one study has come out showing that children of women who INTENDED to breastfeed (but for some reason or other could not) have similar outcomes to children who were actually breastfed, and this suggests that it’s not necessarily the milk or breastfeeding itself, but it may be correlated to some other quality of the mother-perhaps the willingness to make the physical sacrifice and time commitment of breastfeeding correlates with more committed and attentive mothers. It’s unclear.
Both...
Can you drive a car at 70mph without wheels?
That cliffhanger though 😂
When my kids were grown, I unexpectedly ended up with two step grandkids. I was a widow by then, and had minimal finances, but took them in anyway. I always loved them like my next breath and did the best I could. I don’t think there was any other safe option, and I would do it again. No, it wasn’t perfect, but it was safe and loving.
40:18 "If they are [ideal] then the ideal isn't high enough, because an ideal should be something that beckons to you from the distance."
"It's not something that's right there in front of you for you to grip." -Jordan B. Peterson
I loved that!
I would disagree. An ideal is not a mountain peak to stand on, it's in the actions you perform that you become an ideal and if you're reasonable in your idolatry it should be possible to keep riding that ideal.
@@Illlium ´The ideal remains bigger than yourself. If anything, it's riding you.
@@Kraterlandschaft Depends on your relationship to the ideal. If it's externally imposed then sure.
Totally agree, I view ideals as lofty things that you aim towards. Goals are things that you can tangibly measure if you’ve met or not.
That is so stupid. One does not move the goal posts on the basis of them being increasingly difficult to achieve.
Rubin states that they didn’t want to adopt because they wanted the biological connection, all the while failing to consider the biological desire their child will have to know their mother. This is so deeply selfish. Everyone’s heart melts when an adopted child finally finds their biological parents, and now we are ok with doing this deliberately to children, en masse.
People in general are emotional and fall for nostalgia pretty easily. And so people who have had their biological mother seeing stories about those who havent and then found them have an emotional reaction, (heart melting). But does that mean a child cant be happy and generally complete when raised by 2 men? One of which is their biological father, and the other father is technically not, but still responsible for their birth?
I kind of understand what your trying to say, but to call it just "selfish" may be foolhardy. Having children in general, especially for those without extensive means can be called "selfish". I could argue the world is an ugly place so why create another being who may and will suffer? That your not wealthy so why introduce another child with meager means, or the planet is already overpopulated, life is pain ect... You dont make a good argument.
Dave has a good amount of money and means, is intelligent, well educated and in a stable long term relationship. Every person and couple has shortcomings, and if Dave and Dave have one or two, how is that any different or more selfish than most couples who create a child? No child is born in a perfect scenario, should we outlaw every person and couple who isn't ideal from having kids? Because thats kind of what your saying, or your just a bigot. And everyone is selfish.
@@travisadams6279 David said they decided against adoption because the need for a biological connection is incredibly difficult, though difficult to articulate. He went on to speak if this as being essentially primal and instinctive. Millions of people search for relatives via ancestry kits every day. Do you deny this? You think blood means nothing? Why does any adopted person search for their birth parent? Why did Oprah care she had a long lost half sister 😛? It’s true and we all know it. Blood matters. Ancestry matters. People care if they have half-siblings out there in the world. Adoption makes the best of an otherwise crappy situation. Donor children is the definition of prioritisjng your own desires above those of your child
@@dees4991 Yes, people care where they come from. Not all people, but many. Its part of everyones search for meaning as well. But again, your own logic would call anyone who chooses to have a child instead of adopting "selfish". And any couple who falls short of the "ideal" is selfish for having kids. So your own logic is calling almost every parent ever selfish. Good luck with that.
If Dave and Dave have a kid and only one of the fathers being biologically related is indeed a shortcoming of some kind, who cares? Every person who has kids has shortcomings. No couple is completely ideal. You have made no point. Nor have you rebutted any of my previous points. And I really dont care what Oprah has to say, but since you seem to, Id love to hear her take on gay couples having kids. Having kids while being young, dumb and broke is the definition of prioritizing your own desires above your child.. LOL. And that would be true for most parents who ever existed in human history. A straight couple where one parent is disabled and they choose to have children anyway is selfish because its not ideal. ect... You have made no point, so your either not getting it, or your just a bigot. I hope its the former.
If having a child as a gay couple is indeed not ideal, why do you focus on the gay part, or lack of mother, when there are a thousand other ways parents arent ideal? Its probably because your an ignorant bigot.
@@travisadams6279 I actually said nothing about gay parents. I said having donor children is selfish by reference to Dave’s own point about his instinct to have a biological connection to his own child. Straight couples also use donor sperm and eggs. What I called selfish was not being able to recognise that same feeling that he feels within his child.
Both Dave and JP repeatedly referenced a mother and father as being the ideal. Interestingly, you don’t seem to consider that viewpoint bigoted. I think you may be a snowflake. Perhaps you should watch TYT instead, or something along those lines, where calling someone a bigot for having a viewpoint you don’t agree with is considered an argument.
My view is that knowing who your mother and father are and who your relatives are is a human right. It’s instinctual. It has been that way since the dawn of time. Dave and JP spoke at length in this segment about how it is indeed a feeling that is ever-present, despite being difficult to articulate. Whataboutism is not particularly useful. Yes, lots of people have been brought up in crappy circumstances. It doesn’t mean that should set the standard.
I'm an old school conservative, but I'm just going to keep it real and factual.
Most ALL degenerates and criminals come from homes with a single mother.
Fathers keep sons out of jail and daughters off of stripper poles.
I know Dave Rubin is a good man and will raise those kids to be good little patriotic Americans.
So all things being equal.... I'd prefer Dave raise the child rather than the biological mother on her own.
AND overall although I prefer Dave adopt, I understand him wanting to have his own biological child
This is really interesting. As a product of two moms and someone who is conservative, I appreciated the complexity and nuance with this. And seeing Peterson in a different light was refreshing.
Your comment is kinda vague. Conservative as in religious? The two are not mutually exclusive though there is often overlap. Do you love your two moms? Do you view, acknowledge, and respect/appreciate them as your mother(s)? Or do you feel another way for whatever reason? If so, of course, what reason? How would you say you turned out as a product of two moms?
I really appreciate this interview with Dave Ruben. It gave me new and better perspective on the importance of integrating gay people into society. I don’t mean that to sound condescending.
Major credit to two brave people for having a truly difficult conversation. I respect and admire both of you so much.
Yeah absolutely. I also love that Dave Rubin is now a multi millionaire with a multi million dollar mansion. He's so brave to talk about al this stuff although he knows it will make him a shitload of money.
@@jhwhthemerciful Hey he didn't get those millions for nothing, He had to offer up his balls, his spine and any integrity he may ever have had.
Rubin ain't all that brave...
What is brave about someone who was all the power of the current ideology behind his back? "Conservative" Rubin has a same sex marriage, which is progressive.
@@user-qd8iy6vb6l A bit misplaced to put crypto scams on a Jorden Peterson video
I honestly think a child needs a mother and a father. Good conversation.
But the scientific literature says there is no difference in outcomes between same-sex and opposite sex parents. Peterson is an aging curmudgeon.
Female rolemodels definitely. Will it have adverse effects to not have a traditional mother to confide in, absolutely, but you'd be surprised by the amount of children who have a mother that you can't confide in. If you have two Parents who actually try to be there for you that is a million times better than what uncounted numbers of kids in the system and even a large number of kids in their traditional two parent home have. So sure, developmentally it's not ideal, but few things in life are, so more power to gay fathers in my book.
@@theharbingerofconflation by also this gap is often met by aunts, uncles etc hence why “it takes a village”.
What makes a mother a mother? How come a feminin man cannot assume the role of a mother?
I agree. I think a mother and father are integral to development. Having a female role model is not the same as a mother. I think it’s especially important for the same sex parent as the child. I think I would have felt a tremendous sense of loss had I not had my mom. I think I would have looked at the other little girls with their moms and have a deep longing. A better word would be life-long grief.
Jordan is an amazing person. It’s so I intriguing to listen him. I feel so sad when he cries. I wish he could be my therapist.
Very high quality conversation gentlemen!
This is a conversation I've been keen to hear for a while. Thanks for doing this guys
As a 39 yr old mother of 7, this video kept me up last night. I couldn’t help but weep as I thought of the tragedy of surrogacy. After watching Allie Stuckey’s shows detailing the industry, it confirmed my misgivings about the ethics. I completely understand the desire to have children and the joy that you are aware they will bring. But as I hear Rubin admit that they have no idea how this will turn out, I can’t help but recognize that these two sweet babies are an experiment of two men’s desires. I am praying for these two babies who have been orchestrated by man, to be born at the same time, from two different women, who they will not be held and nursed by. No amount of preparedness can replace the mother and infant relationship. I type this all with a heavy heart.
@ Katie wow..”an experiment of 2 mens desires”…that is deep, profound…very sad 😢
Yes. 💯. Made me a little sick to hear Dave so casually talk about the “quality of the eggs” and how he wanted to avoid having children who weren’t healthy or had genetic issues, etc. 😓. This is what happens when you commodify bodies and babies.
@@samanthawhang7498 No one wants children who aren’t healthy and have genetic issues. Many parents who learn early that their children may have those issues terminate their pregnancy. And there are many more parents who bring children with health issues in this world and give them up for adoption.
Profound statements you made. Absolutely. This situaion cuts women out of the powerful role they play in a child's development, that being motherhood. And done the other way, with two women, it cuts the fatherhood out. Children need both: on a biological basis and then in every other way after.
They wanted the feeling of fulfillment so they bought it
I remember Jordan saying something along the lines of "you can celebrate having a woman in the supreme court but at the same time you cant acknowledge what a woman actually is" and that you cant have both. Having a fridge full of breast milk and a nurturing attitude doesn't make you a mother. It's not like they are adopting. This guy is literally going out of his way to make sure a child is born without having a mother for the sake of his own lifestyle.
Deprive (or put another way - steal) from the baby the real Mother? By design and intentionally? Just seriously thinking about it must be horrifying for any decent person. If this is not ultimate child (or human rights) abuse...... what is? Must be criminal, not less and not more.
@@samhurton9308 same time he is lifted up as model for how the gays can become conservative
Wow! Such judgement!! Hope you guys are living a perfect life!
@@marydaniel3252 I’m not perfect, no one is, but I don’t sodomize other men.
Haha this is so funny to see his fans turn on him, I guess that's what being a gay right wing grifter gets you. It must suck for your whole audience to be disgusted with your lifestyle. Btw I think Dave and his husband have every right to be parent to a child as long as they are loving and caring to it. The right shows its true homophobic colors here
Two distinguished gentlemen. One gay one straight, having a mature, interesting and zeitgeisty conversation. Fascinating!
The West’s decimation of the sacred bond and institution of motherhood. Reducing motherhood to being an egg donor and night nurse. The cognitive dissonance of American conservatives in normalising this while at the same time arguing against gender ideology is staggering.
The video should be called: Pitfalls and Child Abuse.
In every culture on earth, including in the animal world, separating a child from its mother, from the bosom of maternal care is considered cruelty. Here we are being encouraged to think it’s normal and healthy.
Dave seems like a nice guy and what he has sensed as missing (namely having children) is obviously true. But it seems like he's going to need all manner of scaffolding to allow this kind of parenting to be so for him and his male partner, an option not available to the vast majority of gay couples. This may be controversial to say, but when we try to mold reality to fit our will or desires, even if they seem to us noble, we find all manner of problems arise. It is a bitter pill for we modern people to swallow, especially if you have more of a liberal outlook. But in a sense highlighting this truth, helping people avoid this self-made 'chaos' has been one of the central elements to Dr. Peterson's incredible project. There is an order to things, a way towards which things tend, laws, etc. One should not try to bend the deep structure of reality to meet the reflection we wish to see in the mirror. The old religious stories tell us as much, many fairytales too. It seems there is a focus here on the self, filling the seemingly good need within one's self to be a parent. However, the stark facts of nature state he cannot be one in this way. I wonder if the hole he is describing in his life would be best filled by some other altruistic enterprise, namely committing himself to his community, helping disadvantaged young people make a go of life, etc. Diverging from a mother and a father in a deep sense could lead to untold problems down the line. Surely the last century should have taught us not to play with things, functioning institutions, ancient wisdom, we scarcely understand lest we avoid the “hell” Peterson constantly speaks of.
Great analysis. I concur
@@hybridh9702 They are just thoughtful not experts, i know thoughtfulness may seem unusual to you.
Hear hear
@@hybridh9702 You speak as if that's not part of internet culture. Go back to your bright lights and loud noises, child
Interesting analysis, but I think the problem here is that it assumes that the average heterosexual parents somehow always make loving, intelligent, perfectly equipped, financially stable, white picket fence families. The truth is that the majority of families need some form of "scaffolding" at one point or another. Gay parents are far less likely to be in a situation where they are unprepared to raise children. Given the structural limitations, gay parents are far more likely to be financially stable, educated, and committed to the journey required to raise kids well and prepare them for life.
I have had so many questions for David on this in similar topics and believe him to be one of the few who can answer them. It’s at times like these I wish I had a RUclips channel like they do and the skill to hold the interview well.
Thank you both. This was very informative. I love Dr Peterson, my first time hearing Dr Huberman and now I'm very interested in what he has to say as well. Out family member has a severe addiction to drugs and we have been struggling as a family as to how to deal with this. I appreciate what you have said and wish we had a family therapist. We need your help ! I will continue to follow these two and hope somewhere in their content is the answer. Much love to you both❣️
I like Dave Rubin and I was so surprised at my immediate negative reaction to this. What got me the most was hearing about the night nurses, the caretakers and the freezers full of breastmilk. As a mother of a toddler, the struggles of raising a baby are very fresh in my mind. I am sure many mothers are familiar with the severe sleep deprivation, troubles breastfeeding and/or pumping (and self loathing as a consequence of that), not to mention the extreme physical feat of pregnancy, birth and post-partum recovery. He is making it sound like they will be outsourcing all these hardships to a small army of women, while still feeling self-actualized and passing on their genetic material. If reproduction was a game, they are playing with cheat codes.
I think Dave and his partner are aware of their limitations and are trying to prepare for those limitations in the best way they can for their babies. I don’t believe that Dave and his partner will stay in bed sleeping while the night nurse takes care of the babies, I just think the nurse will be there to help guide them in what to do. If I had the means I would probably preplan in the same way Dave is doing. I’m a woman but am not very maternal, very organized and don’t like things out of place. My mom had to help me to traverse dealing with children, I guess much in the same way Dave’s night nurse will help him. He realizes it won’t be easy and is trying to learn.
@@iamspartacus7756 Maybe you are right. The reason it sounded like they are taking the easy way out was because he said they will use a night nurse for a few months until the baby has a better sleeping schedule, which to me implied that they don't want to deal with waking up every 2 hours.
@@krumelguineapig5353 I mean... Rich women have been doing this since the middle ages nothing new here
Brilliantly stated - if it’s a game, they are playing with cheat codes. Loved that. The fact that all of this coordination is required to do what one woman (a mother) can do, should probably demonstrate that it’s an unnatural paddle upstream. Contrived and designed to try to simulate motherhood and replace it with… this thing.
Yeah it stings. And these men just can't understand, even if they try.
The quality of this is so clear and the format is so refreshing. I think I like the direct this is going
I had a strong maternal drive from early on and had three children with a supportive husband. If I had known he would leave I might not have had the courage. A lot of people have children without soul searching at all. I think it is great when people really think a lot about it and go into it eyes wide open.
I just started watching the video so I don't know if this comes up later lol. But from reading some of the comments, all I can think about is straight couples who have children but then divorce or seperate, or if you grow up in an environment where your parents aren't present. This can happen regardless of sexual orientation where the mother abandons the child or the father abandons the child, and if you have an uncle or an aunt or another family member to help out that's better than nothing. It also makes me think about the whole concept of adoption and the fact that adopted children often never get to be with their actual mothers and fathers. But there are so many family dynamics involved for me to really say one way is better than the other, because a gay couple who loves their child and is there for them throughout their lives is much healthier than a straight couple who abandons them.
I have such deep respect for this conversation. I myself raised my grand daughter from 6 months to the age of 7. That last year she longed for a “normal” family, a mother and father. She was blessed in that her father remarried and was able to provide this for her. The normal family, male, female, is likely to always be normal. You are mapping this out. I do not envy you the road ahead. You think you can deal with whatever the world throws your way. But when you child says “I want a normal family,” that’s hard. I put her in play therapy. Because while she was excited about the normal family, she was torn about leaving me. Play therapy works wonders. You have much wisdom, my friend, and with Jordan Peterson as a resource I think you will draw a very clear map for those who follow.
Bravo!
Your are a very loving, wise grandma!
It's really so wise and kind and selfless of you to put it like this about her father being able to provide the kind of family the child longed for. She's lucky to have you. You're not possessive of her.
No doubt she wanted the idealized/romanticized version of the nuclear family because she had become fully aware of it via the media, you and the people around her. I doubt there is anything instinctive about it, that it is the best and greatest.
Please turn on "include automatically generated subtitles/captions". It allows for searching for quotes in the video (using the transcript and Ctrl+F) and helps many people follow along via being able to read the captions while listening. It also helps deaf people.
I second this! I use subtitles to help me read more
Interesting. I wonder if they disable it to prevent data mining of phrases which become "offensive" in the future.
great conversation. Thank you.
The fundamental problem with gay parenting is that it will become the "newer, better" form of parenting, just as trans-women are now a "newer, better" form of women and all deviations from traditional marriage (divorce, SSM, et al) are now viewed as "newer, better" lifestyles. Every social innovation must be asserted to be somehow superior to the status quo, or it will fail to be accepted. However, whenever a social standard becomes redefined for the benefit of an elite few, it must naturally cease to serve its intended purpose for everyone else.
Having to have your sister and mother move in with a couple of night nurses to take care of the babies you bought. I'm sorry. I just can't understand what is remotely naturally nurturing about that. It's not.
As a mother, Dave just unknowingly elaborated how essential I am. Thank you. He and his spouse have to collage different individuals to do what I do naturally. Motherhood cannot artificially be simulated... not matter how much you try. I wish you Dave the best of luck on your journey... I hope to hear from your kids in future to get their take from this experience. Much love and blessings 🙌🙏❤️
You sound like a narcissist.
Very insightful
@DEZZNUTZ 1001 True, although plenty of heterosexual couples are 'hamstringjng' their children by bringing them into the world without being equipped to parent them.
The fact is that plenty of people, if not most people, don't get the idyllic upbringing that a GOOD mother and a GOOD father can give them. And one parent being good at the job can't compensate for the other one being bad at it.
If two parents of any gender are good at the job, they're of far more benefit to the child than a bad parent.
Luck? This dude need some prayers.
@DEZZNUTZ 1001 A ruse? Those pesky gays tricked you? What are you, drunk?
I appreciate and respect both of you calmly discussing this issue, regardless of my disagreement with most of what you say Thank you
Basically Dave bought two human beings to keep his husband happy. I find surrogacy ethically wrong, regardless whether straight or gay couple uses it.
Dave, after giving birth and I was lactating, my milk would come in with just the mere thought of my baby or saying the word baby. Children need a warm, loving mom. Im not saying a man doesn't love his child, but 10 men can't replace a mother.
And to think of the baby, knowing and being close only to their mother for the entirety of their existence -- to then be taken away, never to see again the one person in the whole world this baby actually wants more than anyone else.
During a time they can not express themselves verbally and have to accept their surroundings, without any sort of independence whatsoever.
Only a society that accepts abortion can rationalise this sort of cruelty.
@@reasonablyserious Great perspective.
Empirical evidence must give way to theory. I have reared four children and no matter how much time, nurturing, bottle feeding, comforting, skin contact. You name it every feminine trait I could perform they still gravitated towards my wife for certain comforts because that was their preferred choice when given the choice. It appeared to be instinctive programming. It's as simple as that. A man makes a poor mother and a woman makes a poor father. Dave can have 20 fridges of breast milk but it's not just the milk babies want its the breast. I just didn't have a tittie and that's the difference. Do they want what's best for a child or what's best for Dave and Dave? What would a child prefer?
You're a very intelligent man sir ☺️
(Also it's the same sadly for single Mothers.....when they try to raise sons without Father's it goes horribly wrong 😥...(maybe the odd few exceptions I know) but sons especially need that masculine energy guidance. Both Mother's & Father's equally bring many important aspects into a child's upbringing..... It can go sadly so horribly wrong with single parents 😔 statistics are everywhere...plus well, just look around 😔
This is a fantastic discussion and needed to be done. Thanks to these two amazing men ❤
I absolutely agree! I learned so much here. This helped me to make sense of many things. These are very complicated issues.
I appreciate the attention to nuance.
But how typical is Dave R as a gay married man with kids !!
@@denisjackson8310 he talked about that, it’s a consequence to society’s lack of expectations pertaining to homosexuals.
You say yourself “how typical is Dave R as a gay man…” and that’s because you’ve never been exposed to nor seen anything beyond Archetypes, I’d go as far as to say most people don’t think Gay’s can aspire NOT be archetypes.
What's so amazing about such an evil act? This is child abuse at the highest level!! This child's view of the family and marriage will be destroyed!
I'm a straight white male (yes I admit it 😳) who played the Mr. Mom role since my son's birth. His mother worked and really was not physically fit to do so, plus I have a very rare eye condition, so it just made sense.
My son was born extremely low functioning autistic. He's now extremely high functioning and very few can tell he even has autism.
My point:
It's not easy for a man to nuture a child from birth, as it just does not come natural to men overall.
But a man can indeed do so and obviously 2 men can do so.
But that child needs to see a woman parent in his/her life to understand both gender aspects.
Be it an aunt or grandmother, I really believe it's imperative.
Heck maybe I'm closeted and never came out and it's why nurturing came easy? Lol
Any family becomes solidified with a child(children), be it straight or gay.
Unless you feel that unconditional love for you're child, you just never know the depth of how important it is in life.
God bless any type of family that can give the love of a parent to their child, as that's love on a different level.
Great interview !!
True fatherhood means providing what’s truly best for a child.
The difference between adoption and IVF is that adoption exists to find the best parents for a child in need,
IVF exists to fulfill a desire of adults to have children, who always miss one of their biological parents. They are made that way intentionally.
Not always. There are straight couples who use their own eggs and sperm for IVF and then the fertilized embryo is implanted into the same woman's uterus. But even in this case ethics and most certainly health risks are up for debate.
IVF is a great evil.
Rubin happily advertising genetic engineering to accommodate aesthetic preferences.
Truly the mark of a great parent.
Right on.
Eugenics, right?
Thank you for your honesty Dave. This was really fascinating.
Thank you for the Truth in concerns regarding your journey in parenting, Ruben. 🙏🏽
Confrontation of Fears in Truth is the only way to be a healthy contributing member of society.
Every child needs a father and a mother period! It’s the way of the universe.
Unfortunately, the left, which dominates most of the west tries to shape and mold society into their failed worldview, which will lead to a catastrophe in the foreseeable future..
Not really
If it was “the way of the universe” then why did two men come into being (Rubin and his husband) who want to have a family?
@@asystole_ I think it is more accurate to say that "it" (the generative distinction between male and female) is natural. It is in accord with nature, whereas homosexuality is contra naturam (against nature). Genocide "occurs in our universe [our world]", as does slavery, but the mere occurrence of something "in our world" doesn't make it right. Nature has within it the principle of "coming into being". Every human being who has ever lived in the long history of mankind has come into existence through the sexual friendship (or the sexual union at least) of a man and a woman. Even those conceived "in vitro" are the product of the union of male sperm and a female ovum. Harry Jaffa said it best "[m]ankind as a whole is recognized by its generations, like a river which is one and the same while the ever-renewed cycles of birth and death flow on. But the generations are constituted---and can only be constituted---by the acts of generation arising from the conjunction of male and female. The root of all human relationships, the root of all morality, is nature, which itself is grounded in the generative distinction of male and female...." Homosexuality is wrong for the same reason slavery is wrong. It is against nature. Paraphrasing Jaffa, nature and reason tell us that a man is not a dog or an ox and ought not be treated as one and with the very same reason they also tell us that a man is not a woman and that the right ordering of sexual relationships is between man and woman, not man and man, or woman and woman. If homosexuality were a moral good, there could be no objection to the world becoming entirely and exclusively homosexual. But this would entail the extinction of humankind within a generation or two. Would that be in accordance with nature? Would that be a moral good? Of course not! Someone said "nature, expelled with a pitchfork, always returns" and that is a truism you can bank on. Indeed, homosexuals (men especially) experience a level of psychic distress that is much greater than that experienced by heterosexuals. This is true regardless of how tolerant and accepting is the community in which the homosexual lives. The psychic distress I am referencing (manifesting itself as increased depression, anxiety, suicide, etc.) is intimately bound up with homosexualiy itself. It is not the result of discrimination, in other words. The disharmony in the soul, in the psyche that is the consequence of choosing, (yes choosing) a homosexual lifestyle is a consequence of choosing for oneself that which is not natural and not intended.
Yall say this until they become abusive
These two men are important! Thank you for all you do! God bless. Agape. Open to being interviewed as a teacher who was told to not tell his students he loves them and not to use social media! We need to speak up!
You are so lucky to have a strong family both nuclear and extended to support you both as parents and as a growing family.
Gracias, thanks to both for this video. It made me understand things of myself better. Saludos from México.
Dave is a great conversation partner for Jordan. He's got enough gusto himself that he doesn't just go silent anytime Jordan speaks and he's not afraid to talk over Jordan when he has something to say.
Wow, this is more than conversation. It's a genuine moment of profound inspiration. There is an unusual intimacy in this type of content which will be the last nail in the coffin for "legacy media".
Thank you for articulating this so beautifully. Well said.
NPC detected
I love that after a couple years I just now finding out Dave is gay. That’s how it should be. He doesn’t make it about him or his sexuality it’s about being a good person. Love it. Go Dave
Yes, I support gay people but I hate the LGBT organisation. Being gay is fine but I don't want people to be gay in front of my face, the same goes for straight people.
Or just let ppl express themselves? Dafuq💀 besides straight ppl "make it abt themselves" all the time have you seen the clothes they put their babies in "lock up your daughters" or "ladies man" I'd argue that's way scarier than any gay person. Besides the amount of straight men scared of anything remotely feminine says a whole lot more abt straight ppl than it does abt gay ppl "making it abt themselves". Also sexuality doesn't have a "look" to it so u not knowing he was gay was probably because u catagorize gay ppl (and probably ppl in general) based of off stereotypes.......do better
70 minutes and this ain't even the full conversation? Wow.
This convo does have the same vibes as when you put me in a room with my sister, or my partner, or my dad - you both have these things that you're curious and passionate about, these things that you respectively know, and you can just keep bouncing from topic to topic and finding new connections.
I love Dave. I can’t help but to be bothered that children will be without a mother.. the reason breast milk is so important is the milk is specifically made for the baby. If a mom comes in contact with a virus, the milk will make antibodies for babies within 24 hours. (I’ve also read 30 minutes). My child is breast fed, and when I work once a week, my mother in law can hardly calm my child down at the end of the day because the baby just wants to be cuddled to me and nurse. It’s a comfort thing. I know Dave and his husband will be great parents, but there’s just something about mothers.
You should be bothered. This is grotesque.
Sarah, your badly mistaken. There is no difference between Father and Mother, Man and Woman. Biology is so outdated and naive! Also going forward please use proper terminology - Parent#1 and Parent #2. Please also note that any man can be a woman and any woman can be a man. "Father" and "Mother" are deeply hurting and insulting! Well, hope you know what I mean........
@@samhurton9308 lol I can’t tell if you’re serious or not.
@@mylifemyrules8134 If you came here, listened to the conversation between JP and DR and you ended up with "grotesque" I truly think you should listen again, it’s definitely not as simple as that.
Can I ask then why your away so much from your baby when you know the critical importance of binding, being there, breastfeeding isn’t just the milk, it’s the close body connection.
I was a student rotating through CAMH at the time when Dr. Zucker was embroiled in controversy. It was very sad -- he was meant to give a talk to to students at the University of Toronto, and there a was a massive uproar (from a minority of loud voices) who put out a petition to get him cancelled. They accused him of all sorts of things like practicing conversion therapy (not true) and transphobia. In the end his lecture was cancelled. There is no room for diversity of thought. Dr. Zucker's goal was to give people the time to become comfortable in the bodies they were given. He was fired shortly after. This will be a stain on mental health and medicine going forward.
This conversation is so important to have in this generation of yearning to preserve the value of family between a father and a mother in the life of our children.!!!🤔🤔🤔
Or two fathers or mothers.
@@dem0cr4tsareresponsiblefor52 Gay privilege ?? Can you name ONE thing that gay people enjoy and not heterosexuals ? Just ONE.
Many gay couples are still waiting to adopt as well and unlike what you seem to think, they are even LESS likely to get to adopt someday because many adoption agencies tend to favor heterosexual parents over homosexual ones.
“Have you not read that He who made them from the beginning made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’?” (Matthew 19:4-5).
@@Gloriagal78 Or his husband*
@@Nonalhomophobie Nope.
2 of my favorite people to listen to speak. I admire them both for their courage to remain completely authentic!
2 of my favourite people to listen to, Jordan and Jordan.