Kyle Kulinski DEBATES Jordan Peterson On Trans Issues | Krystal Kyle & Friends
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- Опубликовано: 12 июл 2022
- Kyle Kulinski interview Dr. Jordan Peterson on a wide range of issues including trans issues where the two have a heated debate
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Thank you Breaking Points for being willing and brave enough to allow this exchange without framing it for us.
^^^^. This. I would pay extra to have Kyle and JP go back and forth like this on multiple topics. I’m very impressed by Kyle here. Very (And I disagree with him on almost everything …very much)
Difficult topics to talk about are the ones that are important to talk about.
@@LibertyGoose everything Peterson said that was clinical went completely over Kyles head. Another clinical psych needs to ask JP these questions not a journalist that knows nothing about the DSMV.
I agree with you but it’s also sad that just having/posting a conversation now a days is brave. Conversations like this need to be had everywhere with open ears by everyone.
@@perknsmerch4824 I agree with that.
I am gay and Jordan gets it when he says "LGBTQ is not a community" That is the truth. I am gay and I am not part of LGBTQ. I am an individual with my own beliefs and thoughts and it is often contrary to the beliefs of LGBTQ. I just happen to be gay.
This gay man agrees. It was important to me in the 70s, 80s, not so by 90s. It got more 'edgy' for me .. NAMBLA, other stuff. Haven't been to one in over 20 years. Maybe I'm old and grouchy but would never take kids to one. At least not in SF, LA.
NO! You ARE part of "it." And, you didn't just "happen" to "be" gay. You "chose" homosexuality as your preferred lifestyle, no different from a women who chooses to be a lesbian or a man a gigolo and so on. Trans is a grossly dysphoric psychological condition where the focus is entirely different, a rejection of one's own physical being. Very sad. The most obvious evidence is that LGTBQ+ individuals demand that "others" embrace, not just accept their dysphoria. My response is to quote Dr. Peterson: "You can go to hell in a hand-basket."
This bisexual woman also agrees. I've lost so many friends in recent years because they have subscribed to insanity.
I have read hundreds of comments just like yours. LG doesn’t seem to have ANYTHING to do with the rest of the BTQI+ alphabet so-called “ community “
@@shannaveganamcinnis-hurd405 L has nothing to do with G either. Gay men and Lesbian women often have nothing in common.
I'm impressed that JP finally consolidated his argument as one where this medical intervention hurts more than it helps, medical ethicists please note
Oh yeah, not sterilizing kids hurts them.
finally consolidated?
@@jonathanhaire4673 sure
And he's disgusting for that
Do you have a study that shows it hurts more than it helps?
That was a good conversation. Not a fan of Kyle but props to him for inviting Peterson
He deserves no props, he a grifting fraud who is about to flip his opinion and agenda and act stunned by the news to come. Just wait for the giant grift coming from him Maher and the rest of the useful idiots
Why are you not a fan
@@rickystanton3039 Makes money by being a mouthpiece and riding on people's feeling. Typical social media influencer man. Common, being a feely touchy influencer makes money.
ye i used to like him but hes gone too far left for me
@@rickystanton3039 I'm not a fan because he seems like an evil self-serving person that seems oblivious to suffering. I think he serves as a figurehead to everything that is wrong with society. You can tell that he will say just about anything to promote himself, and win popularity.
These are the people that used to be these born-again preachers in the 50's and 60's, they are con men, that produce nothing except false hope, and earn a living by talking garbage, and seeming smart. Then they are caught in the back of a limo with a prostitute.
It is the BLM leader with the million dollar houses. We need to stop giving these people air to breathe. Let's promote instead the mother with 10 kids making their packed lunch in the morning before she goes to work. Let's applaud the farmer up at 5am, working to feed us all.
I can't like a society that deems all men toxic, and when little boys say, "I don't want to be toxic", they surgically alter them.
I was someone who was an insecure young teenager because I did not feel "girly" enough. In those days there was no such thing as transitioning, and I am so glad there wasn't. If there had been I probably would have started the process of transitioning from a female to a male. In the end, all it took was me accepting the fact that I was simply a "Tom-boy" in those early adolescent years who liked doing all the guy things, and was more comfortable in pants than I was in a dress. Today, I am a happily married women (to a man) with two grown sons. So with that said, I think what JP is trying to say is that we need to stop telling young "Tom-boy" girls that they are really boys in stuck in a girls body. And we need to stop brainwashing their young little minds into believing they need to start transiting to feel good about themselves. Instead maybe all they need to do is simply wait to see how things play out once they have grown out of that terrible insecure adolescent stage.
Thanks for sharing this experience. So many people need to hear this!
I have yet to see any widespread evidence where health professionals, parents and adolescents involved make such a decision regarding sex/gender/surgery/medications rashly. Tomboy girls are not rare and this issue is not about misunderstanding such girls nor misunderstanding young men who have obvious feminine traits. I am not convinced there is a coordinated effort to brainwash young ones towards changing their gender. I do believe the stigma and vilification of these people has lifted somewhat, they are able to speak openly, assert rights and not be discriminated against. I also think exploration of the gender spectrum, sexual conduct, change and new tolerance is a much needed quality in society which this topic promotes.
This was your story. The issue is not being a “Tom-boy” is a literal feeling of not feeling the sex you were meant to be. It is NOT a stage... this is not even an issue! There are more issues for kids/teenagers not being able to identify with their sex to be. There’s a process that the child/teenager has to go through with many doctors. It’s their choice.
@@BlahblahblahblahblahblahblahFU being alike to something doesnt mean you are that 1:1 the same and that's what Tom-Boy means, alike, not the same, you need to go back to basic linguistics
@@LARESCIV I need to go back to basic linguistic... in an argument of sexual identities! Your an idiot! First, this is not even an issue of what people want to have a discussion about... living wage, health care, guns, education! This is something the right came up with to avoid what people really want to debate! This discourse of sexual identity... is for the individuals and their family (if under age) Second, someone’s sexuality is NONE of our business!
My daughter is 14 and wants top surgery and it’s maddening because she’s shown no signs of being trans or gay until very recently and it really feels like she’s hopping on a crazy trend and we’re having fights about it. It sucks for parents.
Stay strong. It would be incredibly unloving to allow her to mutilate her body. One day she’ll thank you.
you can just say to her "You're too young now but when you turn to an adult you can do whatever that makes you happy" simple as that :)
Obviously I don’t know how at this point you’ve discussed things with them. But I think a compromise could be offered if it hasn’t already. Binders could be a relatively good compromise as long as they’re used in a safe way along with the usage of sports bras, undershirts etc. I would also add that a component could be respecting how they want to be called if it’s different than how they’re already being called. Like using son or referring to them as a he. Even if you feel internally that they’re still your daughter. I would also give them the space to understand that they can explore this without it being a commitment and can change if they feel they want to. If we look at as in they are trans and they really do feel that way then not offering any compromises could be cruel and hurt your relationship even more. Or on the other hand if they feel like they might like this way better than how they are now offering comprises may help them get closer to what they feel they desire. They try it out and know that maybe this isn’t for me and change back to female pronouns etc. On the note of surgery again I have no idea how you’ve talked about it but I would state that there are many surgeons that won’t operate on young trans or even older trans people until they show signs of body dysmorphia for around 3-4 years. I would also note that if they are trans while their breasts may be a big point of dysmorphia, surgery will be just as effective at any age. I would note that this feels really new to you that surgery is a huge commitment and I would advise saying how you feel really uncomfortable with this aspect and you love them but you aren’t comfortable with surgery at this stage and instead offer in other ways (binders, undershirts, pronouns, maybe a short haircut etc.) to help explore this side of them they want to change. It’s also good to inform them of the risks of binding and help them make that decision if they even want to go there. I hope I could offer some advice.
My own personal experience when I was a teenager at one point I cut my hair very short and started dressing very masculine and I had never heard of a trans person. But I did stick out a bit and felt weird in regards to femininity what was expected to be feminine and a woman and masculinity. I just was at a weird space I was around 15. However I never felt that I was stuck in the wrong body but I did have a desire to fully dress up as a guy sometimes. I watched a video later about someone transitioning to be transgender and I cried and thought that could be me however 2 days later I realized that it wasn’t. And later on in that year I was misgendered as male and it didn’t feel right or comfortable. I guess at that time I was reestablishing my feelings about expectations and gender presentation. It took me a while but I slowly over the years dressed as more feminine and dissociated feminine clothing as being an entirely very womanly woman. I knew right away pretty much that it didn’t feel right. So I think it’s best to let them explore and I think they will come into their own and figure things out.
Ma6be connect her with the detrans network where she can hear another perspective? There are a lot of young women there who feel mislead by the clinics and she might relate to their warnings
She's being brainwashed by the cult of her friends that aren't really her friends. She is too young to even have her own Smart Phone, much less be discussing things like this. Smart Phones are a direct plug to the mind virus going around now, and I'm a former Geek that loved Tech and used to promote "Information wants to be free!" but even I have seen what Social Networks are doing to young peoples minds. It's unrestrained obsessive compulsive behavior that is further encouraged by our highest education systems. It's very scary Black Mirror type stuff.
So refreshing to see two adults have a discussion like this. Listening, thoughtful, actually answering each other’s questions. We should bring this back to the political sphere. Less mouth, more brains!
The host wasn't 'thoughtful', he has an agenda and will never be swayed. Believing that there is a 'community' highlights his delusion.
@@JavaAndroid You are so right. Jordan was the only adult here. Kyle doesn't know anything. He will always side with fake authoritarian left because he is a shill for the Dems.
@@JavaAndroidhe was more thoughtful and logically consistent than Peterson
@@yoeyyoey8937 Consistantly deviant
@@JavaAndroid idk what you mean by that, but in the video, Peterson was petulant and dodging the question of whether he believed that some people should not have freedom of expression. Which tells me that Peterson does not support free expression wholesale, and I thought you would be interested to know that because I’m assuming that you support freedom of expression
Not sure why but I totally missed this and almost a year later now I stumbled on this video. I would like to hear more between these two dudes who I agree on most things with.
I love that someone so educated can sit there and think about a question publicly then just be bold enough to say “I don’t know” and genuinely mean it. There’s no ego here
🤣🤣🤣
@@olddouchebag not an argument
It's why i love Jordan Peterson, he actually stops and thinks about the questions and his answers before answering.
The answer is "yes" but the ramifications of saying that would be disastrous especially in America where they celebrate Ultra liberalism and Hedonism. America is so morally bankrupt got any restriction on "freedom" is seen as anathema.
The fact that gender reassignment surgery exists is Testament to how obscene and degenerate your Society has become
The answer is pretty simple. Abolish gender completely. The reality is that gender is made up, as much as 'race' is - and is just as meaningful/less.
Gender is cultural / social / fashion.
I think people are less likely to undergo surgery if they are allowed to present as one gender and retain their original genitalia - it follows logically. The definition of man and woman should not be about penises and vaginas.
As a therapist who has worked with a client who regretted making and early decision about transitioning with surgery and hormones we do have to look at the harm in these procedures at young ages. They are life time decisions you can’t just change back. And it’s a big deal to take hormones and the effects on the body.
Sweden reversed their trans policies and treatment protocols this Feb you should look into it. I don't even think we can have this discussion here.
You can't change to begin with, you can only mutilate yourself.
@@privacymatters4714 They did for under 18, not sure about adults.
You aren't saying anything, you are just concern trolling about trans people and feeding into Jordan Peterson's moral panic. What solution are you actually advocating for?
Which is why Sweden and Norway have banned these procedures on kids. Past the age of 18, I don't give two shits what you do with your body. When you start doing it to kids, I've got a problem with that.
Good conversation. Props to Kyle for hanging in with a passionate, very articulate and learned professor. I find that Jordan voices concerns that many others should have. Ethical questions, societal impact. The more than significant chance that many of the transitioning children might very well have grown up as happy straight or gay adults, if allowed to work through the critical years prior to adult maturity.
Learn history
@@nocucksinkekistan7321 🤯
Would you ban it for adults
‘Yes’
Half of libertarian audience drops him
I'm an ex trans woman. Medically transitioned, and lived as a woman for almost 4 years.
I found it to only be a mental illness, and it should not be encouraged.
But I do believe adults should have the right to do what they want with their body, BUT with access to unbiased information to make an INFORMED decision.
We do not have that now. We have subjective and misrepresented information being peddled by the medical and academic communities, and both children and adults are making harmful decisions because they are told it is medically necessary.
What do you say about those who transition and accept it? Do they not exist?
@SivasankaranSumathi Citation needed.
I knew it was mental illness long before this. I've been saying this for a decade.
I don't think you are. I kind of think you're full of crap. Kinda fishing for likes, and you're bored.
@SivasankaranSumathi do you have any proof of that?
We need more real conversations like this. Thank you both
Anyone needing help in this area best listen to Dr Jordan Petersen. Smartest and most experience person I know to give any advice. I’ve been listening to him for years
Actually we need way less. We need to silence most of these clowns, permanently.
@@thereignofthezero225 lol silence them? Hopefully that’s sarcasm.
@@mattgrace544 nah. We can't fix stupid so what shall we do? They are broken. When I have something that is broken and I can't fix, I usually get rid of it. Seems like the logical solution and I believe humanity will go that route again soon with millions upon millions of these meaningless creatures. 😉
@@thereignofthezero225 Sounds like someone lives a triggered lifestyle
I agree with Jordan that a celebrity can influence thousands of youngsters into doing something they will most likely regret at some point. The consequences are monumental. Body parts gone forever, sterilization, girls balding like men. Openly accepting this is agreeing to voluntary human torture.
Now apply that same argument to the overwhelming standard of hetero society standards.
How many women get breast enhancement because it is so fundamentally tied to what makss them valuable?
How many boys dont take baking class for being labeled a sissy?
How many men and women get married because socially it is what is expected of them culturally and in a family environment?
Influence works both ways and you should be honest about how it impacts both side.
Gay, trans , straight etc. The core problem is hyper masculinity and hyper femininity . The core problem is in one person defining what is “just” for another where there is no actual harm being done.
The hypocrisy comes out when the solution to your problem is not making surgery permissible for those below maybe 18 years of age and allowing adults to be able to choose what they want to do with their own body. But you wont like this solution will you. You'll come up with some other excuse to not allow it probably because it goes against your bigoted religious views.
Yep just look at all the drag 80s hair band rock and even prince.
There has been quite the extensive studies regarding to that subject. It's not as bad as some conservatives try to make it look.
It’s like you think getting these surgeries is as easy as going to the store and buying candy. There is a lengthy process involved and statistically only 1% of people regret transitioning which is lower rate than most major life decisions. 14 % of people regret getting tattoos, for example. Please learn the processes and procedures involved before spreading alarmist propaganda about them.
Well done, fellas. We have to be able to have civil discussions with people that we don’t agree with.
Agree, but there’s nothing Civil about the way Jordan behaved during this interview, or how he behaves online.
Classic
@@markmirabella4066 you can be argumentative with someone you disagree with while maintaining civility and respect, all of which Jordan does here if you ask me. Certainly when put in contrast with today’s communication norms. Respectfully disagree.
@@Gobearfoot_ he raised his voice continuously, and gaslit Kyle by changing his position on weather or not the lgbtq community is a community. Yes- respectfully disagree
@@Gobearfoot_ 2:15 hes PISSED right here 😂😂😂
I would like to see a discussion between Kyle and Saagar. Not on any specific issue, I just want a conversation between the two.
I’m thinking they’re going to eventually have him on Kyle Kyle and friends
@@1massboy about to say the same.
Saagar tries not to talk to idiots. That's why Kyle has only been on BP with Saagar present less than a handful of times.
@@joe.oneill Sagar would drown Kyle in a heartbeat...
yeah i think saagar would be less aggro then jordan peterson
I can speak first hand on this. My daughter was a socially awkward kid much like I was. When the “scene” phase hit schools I followed that trend and grew out of it. But tight pants and goofy hair didn’t have any long term adverse effects, besides some ribbing later on.
Now this transgender and identifying with your pronouns has hit the schools; and my daughter has followed suit. One day it was she was weirded out by her peers. Then she said she was pan and gained some more friends. When her first friend came over it was clear what was going on. These are just awkward kids looking to fit in. Now my daughter is talking about hormone blockers. Her mother is unquestioning and supports her. Meanwhile I’m absolutely terrified she has no idea about the full ramifications of what this means.
Luckily my daughter is smart enough to have reasonable conversations with me. After many talks she has came to the conclusion that she is lesbian.
But I’m afraid for other children where the parents are too afraid to talk to their children on these matters.
80% of dysphoric children turn out to be gay. So this 'affirmative' principle - 'acceptance without question' is in fact gay conversion therapy for a majority of children. Your daughter is lucky that she had you as a parent, you have saved her from doing something that she would have regretted the rest of her life.
What idiots like Peterson seem to neglect is gender dysphoria is an actual real thing. It is something that affects a person at a physical level, it's not something you just choose to have or decide you want to be to "fit in". You can find a doctor that can give her a proper diagnosis to find out if her dysphoria is real or "just a phase".
Her mother is stupid and her daughter sexually confused
So you people are now saying trans people are just gay? I feel like I have been plopped back into the 80's.
you are so right at that age you have literally not a clue what it means to take hormone blockers or have these surgeries and just how irreversible it is. I feel for you man you're really up for it because you can't let your daughter do this to herself but her and your wife are going to fight you. You really need to get your wife on the same page as you, this sh*t is really bad idea. When she gets a little older and realizes what she did to herself was a huge mistake and is irreversible she could possibly become suicidal. Kids will do whatever to fit in to the point of multilating themselves and that fact that people are condoning it makes me fu*cking sick. Whoever thinks we should give hormone blockers to kids so they can "become" the opposite gender should be shot.
watching old JP interview and coming here. JP is much more tense now and the last years left a mark on him. He is much more cynical and aggressive now.
Rarely have I seen Jordan this combative. You can absolutely tell he is passionate about saving kids.
lol
No- he’s passionate about not getting called out on his sophistry
He knows what Kyle is up to.
@@snakesandsticks That's a pretty big word there, sophistry. Do you really believe that Jordan Petersen lies deceitfully in his arguments? Truly?
@@zaknaifen193 what- did I send you to the dictionary? If so, you're welcome.
And no, I don't believe it. I know it to be fact. I've seen him mislead and obfuscate (there's another big word for you, so don't get excited), when talking about topics he has no expertise in (e.g., biology, climate, economy). He's been trained by his handlers to narrativize a talking point because it'll get people riled up.
I agree with Jordan. People on the Left (though I am not Right) dismiss concerns as “moral panic”. Not realizing their blind spots they march forward into “progress” without knowing what that progress is.
Agreed. One of the reasons I left the left was because they couldn’t discern the difference between someone raising concerns and someone being a bigot.
Kyle and Krystal could both stand to play the 'It's just a moral panic' card a lot less. We are just now on the front end of the backlash against the trans insanity. We are going to be hearing a lot more stories from detransitioners over the next 2 decades, and the folks who were collecting the dollars to harm young people thru hormone blockers and surgical intervention are going to be as popular as certain Catholic priests.
@@nigelwray7647 It seems that it's pretty hard to be reasonable in your perspective when your supreme social reward and inclusion comes from virtue signaling and othering. This is exactly why politically correct speech is so corrosive.
@@nigelwray7647 you obviously aren't willing or capable of allowing other people to live their lives. Raising what concerns??
@@erincoco612
1) How much informed consent is REALLY applied? A drastic, unregulated, entirely untested long term, and societal rewarded procedure is a sure fire way to guarantee you will NEVER have informed consent. It's why juries cannot be too familiar with the case.
2) How much of a factor does peer pressure play in the uptick in gender dysphoria nowadays for Gen Z? This is an age ripe without critical thinking and falling in line with peers and what is popular. Remember: we waged a war against cigarettes for this very reason.
3) Are there underlying psychological issues that these procedures are masking (my guess is yes)?
But of course I'm a cis gendered 'white' male bigot and thus 'privileged' and never experienced life hardships /s
Calling people bigots when they disagree with you is a sure fire way to start a war and never find common ground. Sometimes I think there's some on the left who really want civil war for some reason....like you assume automatically those that disagree with you are the enemy.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
The fact that I scrolled the comments and people were thanking both parties for a great debate... Come on... That deserves some attention. It gave me hope. thank you to everyone who listens and formulates their opinions based on the actual debates instead of on force feed narratives.
Agreed. Its nice to know there are other intelligent, respectful people out there!
When trans identification has been approximately doubling every 5 years for the last few decades, combined with the fact that the vast majority of this exponential increase has been down to teenagers in the last decade, it is simply UNDENIABLE that we are looking at a social contagion.
did you know that more people started being left handed once we stopped stigmatizing being left handed, it seems pretty obvious that now when we are more accepting towards trans people that obviously more people will be openly trans, the same thing has happened with atheism, where once atheists were excommunicated or forced to hide their atheism when the persecution of atheism stopped more people started identifying as atheist. It's obvious if we persecute a specific identity and a person is capable of hiding said identity they will for the most part do so until the threat is lessened, now we are starting to re-evaluate the persecution of transgenderism it is obvious that more people will identify as transgender.
what a dumb statement ofc as something becomes more accepted more people identify that way the same thing happened with people who wrote with there left hands all the way to the gay movement around 2015 anytime something becomes more accepted in society there are obviously gonna be more people who go that way … just a shitty argument
You’re being dishonest or you’re just ignorant of the facts but the study you’re referring to about the trans population doubling every 5 years is very misleading without the proper context the follow up study was done with a new modeling strategy that made their sample size bigger than previously as well as them adding a question if they were transgender unlike the previous study that only came to the estimation by determining if they were transgender based off question patterns instead so it’s not necessarily as big of a trend in population as you may think but it is undeniable that it’s increasing just not to the extent you believe which makes perfect sense knowing how left handiness being socially acceptable made it so more left handed people existed the same case is for trans people so no it’s not a social contagion that’s nonsensical
@Liam1536 You're the ones being dishonest with yourselves. It's nonsensical to deny that it's social contagion, and I'll explain why.
1. The exponential trend of LGBT identifying youth is directly correlated to how much access they have to social media.
2. You can compare the exponentially growing rate of trans against the proportional decline of homosexuals. Studies have shown that about 80% cases of gender dysphoria are just misdiagnosed homosexuality, and that well over 90% of cases actually resolve themselves and go away if treated properly with therapy instead of castration pills and mutilation. But therapy isn't allowed in some countries anymore where laws have been put in place to prevent therapists and psychologists from looking for any other resolution other than putting them on the LGBT conveyor belt. It's now considered "conversation therapy" to help someone accept themselves and be happy with who they are while it's called "affirmation care" to chemically prevent healthy puberty, prescribe cross-sex hormones and mutilate genitals to make them crudely resemble other genitals.
3. Go anywhere outside the Western world and see how much of it believes in this gender nonsense. If you go to a tribe in Africa they wouldn't even understand the concept.
4. It's distinctly generational. The identification rate of each generation is exponentially higher than the one before that. In fact the earliest recorded case of someone identifying as the opposite sex was in the 1910's who robbed a bank I believe and she wanted to be in prison with the men because that's who she felt like. Any other examples you might think of in history (like two-spirit etc) are modern appropriations of historical tradition which actually had nothing to do with someone of one sex believing themselves to be the other.
5. It's localised mostly to certain regions in the Western world. The rate of LGBT identification is densely grouped in certain places while extremely sparse in others, even within countries that accept it.
6. Despite being supposedly an oppressed group, people are now clambering to identify with one of its many facets, even making up new categories to do so, and this happens mostly when those people are already surrounded by that very group. On a side note, when before in history have people exponentially clambered to identify with a supposedly oppressed group?
7. Ever notice how the celebrities whose children end up identifying with this group all happen to be partially woke? You can even observe many of them determining that their kids will be LGBT long before it happens, and sometimes before they're even born. For instance, Megan Fox decided her kid was trans because she could "feel the energy" while she was still pregnant, and what a surprise!!! Her son likes to wear dresses (which she must have already bought for him first). These celebrities are a public representation of what's happening in the general population too.
8. The entirety of gender ideology was made up by a number of figures in 20th century Western world, and we know who they are. They were almost all "sexologists", and curiously enough they ALL were proud pedophilia apologists. Outside of that, you won't find this gender nonsense anywhere else in the world or in history.
The main figures were John Money who coined "gender" for humans, which until then the word was a purely linguistic term. He was first to summise there's a gendered aspect of humans distinct from sex, and that it's socially constructed and therefore could be socially conditioned.
You can look up his work in detail but in summary his experiments lead to the suicides of his subjects (who he sexually abused in childhood) and his own work proved his own theory wrong. That same theory you insist is legitimate while his work is still used to supposedly affirm gender ideology today.
Then there's Alfred Kinsey, a sexual deviant to got into "sexology" in order to destigmatize his sexual fetishes. He enjoyed things like strangling his testicles whole shoving pencils up his urethra (real example). He insisted that most people were like him but were just repressed, he made up his own figures out of whole cloth about things like how how 90% of farmers rape their own animals and how over half the population was gay etc.
Out of his two most influential works, the first was found to be fraudulent when it was found sexual data he claimed was from the general population was actually from sex offenders in prison. He did this to skew sexual deviance data to normalize his own.
His second work includes a table ("Table 34") recording the orgasm times of children as young as 5 months. He got this data by collaborating with active pedophiles and having them pass their findings on to him, yet he never reported a single one to the authorities. Those two fraudulent and pedophilic works are also cornerstones of a huge portion of the work on gender ideology has been built on too.
Then there's Volkmar Sigusch, who coined the term "cis" in the 90's. He insisted there was no such thing as immoral sex between anyone and anything, he said that pedophiles shouldn't be punished, that child sexual abuse "benefits the victim" and he also blamed sexual assault on feminists because they were against pedophilia and he claimed that not being able to sexually abuse children made people sexually abuse each other.
These are the patron saints of the ideology you're defending. They're the big three but you'll find similar stories and similar defence of pedophilia from any of the others you might look up.
There's also the fact that the idea of a woman being in a man's body or vice versa, just makes no sense and can be nothing more than a superstitious and spiritual claim rather than anything based on real science.
What part of a man is actually a woman? The brain? Well the brain is part of the body so by definition that brain inside the man's body is by definition a man's brain, as are the synaptic signals it creates. Can a man have a woman's arm. Can a woman have a man's leg?
Every study used to support gender ideology and how it benefits people all have invalid methodology, often in multiple ways. They tend to be funded by institutions and carried out by researchers who even admit the conclusion they want the study to come to ahead of time, which is not how science can be truthfully done. The ones claiming that people are happier after transition use incredibly small sample sizes which are cherry picked even smaller after they transition to get the results they prefer, and none of them have ever followed on more than 3 months after transition when the patients are still under the drug-like euphoria of cross-sex hormones and haven't had any significant time to really assess how their lives have been permanently changed.
The only study ever done with a large sample and over many years was in Scandanavia, and that study found (against the researchers intentions) that it has no long-term benefit when it comes to levels of happiness, and it even suggested it might be detrimental to mental health, as it also found that the highest rate of suicide in the trans"community" is at 7-13 years post-op. They kill themselves the most, AFTER surgery.
Now that's out of the way, I just have two questions for you that I'd like you to attempt to answer coherently:
1. What is a woman?
2. What is the precise distinction between gender and personality?
Not sure if my comment will last long before it's removed for heresy against the alphabet cult, but see if you can answer those intelligibly and without psychobabble before that happens.
I was born in 97, crazy to think if I had been born just a few years later what could’ve happened…. I think they really would’ve got me. To anyone out there who doesn’t like their body, work on your mind, your mental strength first.. find some good friends and if you’re blessed enough to have a good family stay close and talk with them.
At the end of the day I don’t think anyone is alone and can’t find a community to be themselves in, I truly believe we all do belong somewhere.
Making a change like this will not bring the peace you seek, this goes double if you’re younger than me.
"they" aren't some great mafia after your soul. there are perspectives diff from yours
Though I disagree with Kyle and agree with Dr. Peterson, I do think that Peterson got a bit heated and I appreciate that Kyle kept his cool and stayed respectful. I have a lot of respect for him for that
Quite
I found Kyle to bit a bit more snarky instead of respectful. Peterson did seem to snap at him every once in a while though.
Even so, great conversation to watch and look forward to more
Even the sudden "realization" by millions of Californian kids that they "must be gay" is part of the peer pressure based on the artificially created gender madness.
He should be heated. After all it's kids we are talking about. They are impressionable and we as adults have a responsibility to protect. The left have this idea that kids will save adults. Thats never happened in any ancient society or after for a good reason.
Sad that Peterson wasn't. He wasn't even this disrespectful towards the GQ woman.
We need more conversations like this, even if it gets heated yet still remains civil (no cutting into each other with personal insults or escalation past that). What we don't need is when someone tries to shut down the entire conversation by saying that the other's words lead to violence.
Debates don't do anything. The best way for right wingers to stop hating trans people is for them to actually know people who are trans and understand and have empathy for them, debates don't help that. Jordan Peterson is never going to change his mind about anything. You can see from how defensive he was and how he tried to change the subject whenever Kyle pressed him.
I did not see hate at tall. I saw concern.
@@danielshepard1449 good arguments and coherent definitions of commonly used words within the ideology would probably also help. And honesty. Religious assertions like “transwomen ARE women” need to stop. Frame the issues accurately.. calling ppl bigots or telling them they are causing “violence” bc they don’t adhere to your religious tenets isn’t fair.. as long as they respect gender non conforming people and allow them to live their lives in peace.
@@danielshepard1449 you are no different then a bible thumping republican...
@@danielshepard1449 I don't think public debates like this are designed to change one participant's mind or the other, but to create a space for the discussion to take place and expose the audience to different views.
Where is the rest of the conversation please??
How did I not catch this when it was new? Took over a year for the algorithm to show me this interview happened.
What I love about Jordan Peterson is that he will think before he answers and he's not afraid to say he doesnt have an answer.
Except when commending on climate change or any number of issues he speaks confidently about with zero expertise.
@@Beastw1ck Very true, I agree with him on most psychological issues but as soon as he enters the spheres of religion and general science he gets a lot wrong imo
He is clearly not thinking clearly at all. His argument against Page is literally the exact same argument that his detractors use against HIM
@@Wazarrd He also doesn't know shit about psychology.
@@Beastw1ck The same faith based/ religious fix for the so-called evil, "Climate Change" is the same psychoses used by the Hell bound Satanic gender religion/ industry's fix for gender dysphoria!
When I was in high school I wore girls clothes to school almost every day and was 100% convinced I was bi. I'm so glad I didn't have adults pressuring me to transition because I was wrong about literally all of that.
Man, your penis got lucky.
No adults pressured you because no one actually does that
@@sdefonta I think what he means is that they weren't so fast to label him as trans. Humans thrive off of labels and subconsciously conform to them. Another thing is that some people are so accepting of it, that one gets positive affirmation and feedback if they label themself as it. To a child that is still developing and building/discovering their identity, it is all too easy to influence them with conditioning (in this case, positive affirmation for the label). When I was a child just wanted to have fun and be accepted by my parents, and they were proud of me and called me brave when I dressed up as a girl, I would have done it more often. When positive attributes are put on a label, why wouldn't a kid want to be brave and beutiful?
Bi people don't transition, you donkey.
Good story. Edit to add /s.
Kyle came across as glib and nonchalant about a serious issue, was good to see Jordan push back on that.
He came across like that because he believes in individual liberties
This is wonderful!!! Thank you for putting this up!!
My personal issue with the surgery is that every other situation, its morally wrong and unethical for a surgeon to remove perfectly healthy body parts.
He said thousands of kids are being mutilated lol that’s literally not happening. Wake tf up.
@@CrackYouUpFilms if the number is more than 1, it is an issue
wake the fuck up
@@CrackYouUpFilms
If even only one is, that’s too much.
@@CrackYouUpFilms In addition, according to the American Society of Plastic Surgeons, transgender males in the U.S. underwent 9,985 gender confirmation surgeries in 2020 compared to 8,986 in 2019.
@@DownforceRecordings okay and?? Show me the statistics that prove thousands of kids are being mutilated. Go ahead, I’ll wait.
When Jordan spoke against bull C-16 I supported him because I’m against legally compelled speech. I totally agree with him that they shouldn’t allow surgery or anything permanent to children until they’re 18. The bridge too far for me is not allowing adults to make their own decisions. If an adult wants to transition they should be able to and if they are open about it, that’s fine too.
Also I do find it kind of funny that trans issues are such a huge thing and a topic that’s constantly covered, meanwhile I’ve met maybe 2 trans people in my entire life lol. The way they make it sound it’s like they’re as common as gay people
You supported someone who LIED about C-16? That's sad.
His interpretation of Bill c-16 was hyperbolic.
Let's be Honest We knew it
ruclips.net/video/z54RsDzwnBk/видео.html
Let's be Honest We knew it
ruclips.net/video/z54RsDzwnBk/видео.html
@@duffydope
Nope,
There was a dad locked up for publicly discussing his kids gender after a court ordered him not to do so publicly, for the sake of the kids privacy. Kids have privacy rights.
Bill C-16 wasnt invoked wahtsoever. He broke a publication ban.
Where can we see the full interview?
I have a lot of admiration for Peterson and definitely agree that it is criminal for these "fever reassignments" out whatever they're called to be done on kids, but he's definitely too far right on this. Adults have bodily autonomy and laws should not be passed based on social control. Telling adults they can't transition because the trans movement is causing serious harm to our society (which I believe the extremism is doing in quite a few ways, as extremism does) is infringing on their rights as individuals.
It has nothing to do with right or left.
"This problem is complicated and compounded by the fact of the necessity of medical involvement. And the ethics on the medical front. It's obvious to me that the trans surgery enterprise has gone way too far. Thousands of people too far. And I'm certain that it's harmed exponentially more people than it's helped"
It's a clinical position from a medical perspective.
Well one, he's using a slippery slope fallacy to reduce the freedom of other people based on children they have no control over and probably dont even exist, he hasnt brought up a single case of something like that. Second is that children legally cannot have sex reassignment surgery. So his claims are all seemingly imaginary and even then make no sense ethically or logically.
@@TheCompleteMental He never claimed any of that. Strawman much? Brainwashed much? Jordan Peterson BAD!
Try actually thinking critically and objectively. Maybe then you'll be able to actually appreciate the material in this video. And actually contribute an intellectual take on an intellectual conversation.
@@brian130 "how many kids do you think she convinced to convert"
I dont even have anything to say. Please seek psychological help.
@@TheCompleteMental You don't have anything intelligent to say you mean 🙄
Love how authentic JP is. He won't stand for empty buzzwords and claims thrown out by talking heads.
Interesting - cos I hear quite the opposite: he's full of buzzwords and epithets, and I hear anger in his strident claims, and absolutely no willingness to step down from his own soapbox
@@bananamiriamyou acting like you don't get angry, especially in a debate where someone was purposely being snide & sharp?
@@bananamiriam What sort of things does he say? Does he use the word "Transition"? It's a buzz word. In Veterinary science has anyone ever "transitioned" a dog, cat, horse, chimpanzee or any other mammal for that matter or "re-assigned" it's sex? No of course not yet we accept "transitioned" as a word applied to humans which are primates.
The doc is an anti-trans and anti-gay obsessive
Kyle Kulinski is an imbecile
An open and uncut debate. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Well done to the host and JP.
@@casslester3625 pick up a dictionary and try to listen again...
@@BOCH-rum JP 🤟👌
@@casslester3625 remove the word bigot from your lexicon and actually try and understand his view. It is not bigoted to be critical of transitioning since it MAY be a mistake
I think JP could have done better. His agitation was visible, and hey, he's human, but it's always better when you can keep your cool and he has shown multiple times that he is capable.
@@RENEG4DE4NGEL yeah his quick to anger was telling, given the context of the questions preceding his mild outbursts. He's great at responding w/ "good question" only to side step it.
What I truly love about Dr. Peterson (among so many things) is that he chooses and uses words with such precision. He knows how critical it is to not blend words carelessly.
Oh, like how he called the lgbt community a community twice and then once Kyle called it a community, he said “first of all it’s not a community.” Very “surgical”
Is that a joke? I’ve never seen a man come up with such impressive word salads. He’ll spend 5 minutes trying to make a point that could be said in a single sentence. The man is the living embodiment of sophistry. And you are his mark.
@@snakesandsticks it’s not a joke, Jordan is beloved by the lost and the hateful.
@@markmirabella4066 the first time peterson uses the word 'community' is at 5:02 , and he *very clearly* refers to it then and there as a 'hypothetical community,' being entirely consistent where you are claiming he isn't. the second time is in the very same unbroken passage of speech wherein he is getting to the same point, but in the same spoken paragraph... he clearly qualified it. so yes: surgical as adjective stands.
@@DanielBoonelight that ain’t it
Kyle: “putting hay stuff in front of kids won’t make them gay”
Can we put guns in adds in front of kids or racism?
Kyle: “nooooo that’ll make the racist shooters?!”
Stuff glorifying racism and violence I get his point. I'm not against free speech even then, I dont think he is either. But there's a massive ravine between that and gay people.
More thoughtful debates like this on this subject please. Not everyone who's concerned about this issues is a "panicking" right wing bigot.
sure not everyone. JP definitely is though. he had to pause and consider letting adults have the freedom to be trans.
Actually they are. They literally are. Just like people who "debated" slavery
@@ThunderHOWL16 "not everything legal isn't criminal" cuts both ways. But I don't think he gets that.
If you mean people like Jordan Peterson aren't panicking right wing bigots, all I can do is chuckle at your nomenclature.
@@ThunderHOWL16 he paused to think before he spoke obviously something you’ve never done in your Life do you not listen to anything he said you guys can just dig your head in a fucking hole and say oh just let everybody be trans and put it all over TV and the kids the kids will be fine the kids will be perfectly fine what are you talking about the kids don’t get influenced by anything you people are jokes panicking right wing bigots yes suicide being one of the number one cause of death for children we’re just panicking right wing bigots pathetic
Thank you, Jordan and Kyle, for having this conversation. This is what's missing in today's society. Whether I agree or oppose, I first listen to both sides of the argument.
You’re what’s wrong with society. You want to virtue signal to strangers because you’re worried if bigots will think you’re tolerant or not
Something Kyle & Broken Points never does.
Kyle is a paid activist , and lacks a lot of critical thinking skills
@@upgrade1015 Agreed, He is as progressive as the squad.
@@upgrade1015so is Peterson except Kyle doesn’t hang his hat in being smart and honest
Beautifully done Kyle
Yeah thank you guys for having the debate. This is a really difficult question with no simple answer. Should we allow people to pay doctors to cause a net physical harm to themselves if they want to? I just wish I could’ve watched the rest of this debate
That was refreshing. Why can’t our politicians have a conversation like this
Well honestly nothing was accomplished here in my opinion..
@@randall7853 agreed. But there was a actual conversation. Unlike with the Senator Hawley and the professor.
you must be new here.
@@Dave-space I’m sorry. I’m don’t think I understand. Are you saying that Jordan Peterson has 1% brain capacity?
Politicians do not have talks like this because their goal is to not solve the issue.
Their goal is to maximize the political power the issue can generate. The traditional next step is to then use that power to serve their financial or political bases.
Solving the “problem” is akin to asking a farmer to not utilize his most fertile land.
I don’t agree with Kyle, but I respect his patience in listening to Dr Peterson
I dont agree with Dr Peterson but I respect his compassion for kids and agree that it's a difficult issue. He also was respectful. He got a little fired up but knowing how passionate he is about the topic, it's understandable.
I guess
He acted cordially in a debate which he agreed to do
@@Colghan621 Hr acted better than JP. If your going to minimize do it both ways.
@@isaiahmesa571 they both acted cordially in a debate they agreed to do .. this is the bare minimum
Im only minimizing the praise 🙌
@@Colghan621 You shouldn't though. These 2 and Russell Brand are some of the only people who are still cordial even when they don't formerly know each other. What used to be the bare minimum is now rare.
"Well, you should. They are kids. " perfectly said.
Jordan Peterson always has a "Get off my lawn!" vibe. He comes across as someone whose heart space is quite damaged.
I love to see the discourse, and the open discussion we need more of this in every regard
This discussion is incomplete without discussions of predatory profit motives of pharmaceuticals, surgeons, and psychologists.
Yeah isn't that Kyle's entire schtick? Predatory profit off of vulnerable people?
JBP brought it up, Kyle dismissed it because cognitive dissonance is too painful.
True, but currently we don't care to much about that. Because that would hurt big pharma.
Yeah but it’s an elective procedure. Hair plugs (which JP is clearly familiar with) is a smaller health car market at around 10 billion a year, meanwhile trans surgery is a drop in the bucket at 350 million.
That is such a weak anti medical science argument. There are no ads running to push people to transition. The discussion is truly incomplete without recognizing the rights and bodily autonomy of trans patients.
I especially enjoyed JP's "I feel like have lung cancer" analogy.
I appreciate how this debate was handled..
We need more people that interview and talk like you. As someone who leans right, it's refreshing to see someone on the left speak to someone with likely opposing views with civility. It seemed it even took Jordan back at first - as if he was expecting a confrontation and instead got a proper debate. Depressingly uncommon nowadays.
to bad peterson didn't respond in kind huh? or is civility only warranted from one side?
@@jerkchickenblog in kind? Since when do you need to be kind in a discussion? If you were kind, you wouldn’t even get anything productive done. You wouldn’t even tackle these issues because you’d be scared to be unkind. These discussions are complex discussions where pushback WILL happen. They are so complex that multiple connections are made to the “main question”. This is not a black and white issue.
For example, did you really think a question about adults doing whatever the fuck they want in society wouldn’t get children involved in that discussion when adults and children are so deeply intertwined to such a degree that they can’t live without each other? The thing that actually annoyed me as well is the fact that he tried to move the topic away from children. That WAS a confrontation, a confrontation to avoid talking about the elephant in the room. Why? Is it because the moment you bring in children, your arguments sounds very wrong and evil? The “let’s get back to the main question” is a pretty terrible attempt of actually dismissing Jordan’s points on the involvement of children, individuals that are actually deeply rooted into the question itself. It was quite obvious and I’m sure Jordan picked up on this confrontation as well. That was the remarks he was mentioning (I’m sure he also picked up on some more queues to make an educated guess) that pointed towards his beliefs though I’ll have to give it to the other because he didn’t mention his belief so Jordan had no concrete proof that was his belief even when his after remarks pointed towards his stance of that matter.
Now the question becomes more of a “should adults do whatever the fuck they want without any responsibilities for the sake of freedom of expression” or “should adults take responsible actions in their lives because the next generation of kids are watching with hawk eyes and responsible actions will also help these adults in the long run.” (Btw, I still consider people “kids” until their brain have fully matured which is at the age of 26, even if the law considers them adults at 18.) For example, would you do a drag show in front of kids? You’re an adult, you’re free to do whatever the fuck you want (even these are limited like you can’t commit crimes) and you’re not responsible for some other parents bringing their kids to your drag shows but would you take the moral responsibility of at least requesting for no kids at your drag shows?
We already have the answer and these adults picked the first option. They don’t give a shit about who they hurt as long as it’s within the law and they will even influence the next generation of kids just because they want society to be painted in their color. The question is “can we ban adults doing bad things in society” and it’s obviously a bad thing considering all the negative effects that are happening to those young folks and to western society as a whole. Look into what Marxism is and how they are reflected in the alphabet group (and more). Like Jordan said, you might have saved one person but you doomed a 1000 more.
So do we allow adults to negatively fuck up their own life and influence children into making the same mistake (look at the suicide rate statistics after transitioning and no it’s not a bully thing because if it was, we’d have an epidemic of suicides in the past when people were more critical of bs, and that didn’t happen) all in the name of freedom of expression, or do we ban those things from happening for the sake of these kids not turning into these shit shows? And that’s a complex question to answer.
Protect kids by putting a limit on freedom of expression, specially the bad expressions, or protect all freedom of expression regardless if they’re good or bad and just don’t interfere at all and let these kids make the same mistakes in their lives when they grow up. Another example is like saying if a group’s freedom of expression is to worship Satan and adults have to willingly sacrifice their lives to it, do we protect that freedom of expression or do we ban it because we know it’s gonna turn more kids (and adults) suicidal. The “I don’t know” answer is perfectly understandable specially when it comes from Jordan’s character.
@@jesspeed "in kind" does not mean to be kind. It simply means to respond in the same manner. For example, if Person A was being nice to Person B, then for Person B to respond "in kind" they would be nice back. However, if Person A were to be aggressive to Person B, then for Person B to respond "in kind" they would respond aggressively back. Nothing to do with kindness, just a strange quirk of the english language
@@jesspeed I respectfully disagree with your stance on trans adults and their influence on children. It is important to recognize that trans individuals are not inherently immoral or harmful to society. In fact, research shows that trans youth who are supported in their gender identity have better mental health outcomes and a lower risk of suicide. Additionally, it is important for all individuals, including children, to have representation and visibility in society.
It is not the responsibility of trans adults to shield children from the reality of their existence. It is the responsibility of parents and caregivers to educate their children and foster open-mindedness and acceptance. And while some may argue that trans individuals performing in drag shows or other public events may be inappropriate for children, it is important to remember that these events are not solely for children and that parents have the ability to decide what is appropriate for their own children to attend.
Finally, I urge you to consider the impact of language like 'the alphabet group' and accusations of Marxism, as they serve only to marginalize and further stigmatize a vulnerable community.
Links to the research I mentioned:
pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/142/4/e20182162
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6913674/
@@wessel5799 Is that why trans suicide is the highest 5 years after transition? Listen if you're an adult do what you want. And social Marxism is absolutely a thing. I might think it's okay for my kid to go to a stirp club but they can't get in. Stop being insane, or reap the pendulum swinging violently against our empathy.
I have worked with adolescent girls for many years. I used to see lots of goth kids, then later emo kids, now every kid that would likely have adopted those trends, identities as "trans". It seems to be the current way to reject societal norms, rebel, stand out, get attention, etc. Most have also seen violent porn and seem terrified to be girls, fearing that is what it means to be female. That is a huge part of this that is not discussed enough. It is heartbreaking.
Yes, it’s mostly girls who have internalized extreme amounts of misogyny, so they turn their backs on and attack their own sex by saying that biological sex does not exist and that women don’t exist. It’s an act of betrayal by radicalized, entitled, violent women and girls trying to erase the very existence of the woman. They sicken me.
Excellent comment.
Agreed.
They are terrified to be girls because they seen violent porn?
Really, dude?...
it is not a "huge" part of this nd it isnt discussed at least on the scientific level because it is completely irrelevant. The problem i have with most ppl discussing trans issues is that most people seem to go with baseless deductive reasoning that completely ignores the science and the sadest part is that jordan is doing the samething which makes his motivation more nefarious since he isnt ignorant on the scientific front so he is purposefully avoiding the scientific data and chooses to describe puberty blockers as brutal for kids when the reality is absolutely not anywhere near that. if a kid say 8 is given puberty blockers they CAN de-transition whenever they want to, which a very small minority of them, about 2.5% choose to, so him describing it as this insane brutal procedure is just an absolute lie
I agree with Jordan on most of this. But it’s not criminal for adults to make a decision and doctors to oblige. We can argue about the larger effects of individual actions. But it’s not criminal in any sense.
BRILLIANT Jordan 💛💛
Golden words - thank God for existing especially at this time. The world needs you. 🌺
Old gay here with a spouse who has diagnosed dysphoria (diagnosed almost twenty years ago mind you). The only reason I mention that is to provide context. Dr. Peterson, generally speaking, is spot on regarding contemporary trans issues, especially when it comes to Page.
And no Kyle, (2:00), the trans issue is not the same as the gay issue from before. Being-trans is, in no uncertain terms, an existential incongruity whereas sexual preference is a matter of a priori taste (for lack of better words). The two things are not even in the same ballpark as each other at the level of concept. The two categories were lumped together for so longed, typically because of shared sexual interest and because both demographics were legitimately, systemically oppressed e.g. no state recognition of natural rights such as marriage, or the right to serve openly in the military , the latter of which actually warranting some attention when it comes to military readiness (i.e. a person who requires constant, uninterrupted chemical therapy cannot serve in a forward location).
Final note: Again, Dr. Peterson is right, especially now. (7:10) There is no community. Shared sexual interest constitutes a community about as much as shared interest in ice cream flavor or television programming, maybe less so. In the latter half of the 20th century it might have been a community, but nothing of the sort exists now outside of individuals so shallow in their character that all they can be "proud" of is the types of bodies they spend physically intimate moments with.
Thank you for your excellent comment. Very enlightening to hear.
Given how often gay people express gender non conforming traits and interests there’s probably a continuum or some overlap on a biological level for what we now separate as gender and sexuality. In many cultures that acknowledge homosexuality view it in gendered terms. I do see how what is asked of society by being trans is distinct.
@@metatypology Yeah, gay women and men consistently find themselves somewhere in the middle of male and female physical and mental traits. This is true for both "butch" and "fem" lesbians and whatever the male gays call such a pair.
You’re gay but support Jordan outlawing trans people and homosexuality? Ok self hater
//Final note: Again, Dr. Peterson is right, especially now. (7:10) There is no community. Shared sexual interest constitutes a community about as much as shared interest in ice cream flavor or television programming//
The word "community" has been commonly used to describe a group of people who share a specific trait since well before you were born. I promise you Jordan Peterson isn't "right" about his claim just because he says so hahaha! I've heard people describe themselves as being part of the "bird watching community" or that they work in the "scientific community" and have heard many gay people from old to young describe the local "gay community" where they live. It is a pretty post modern idea though that a word with a long accepted common use just doesn't get to mean that now based on criteria Jordan can't name.
//In the latter half of the 20th century it might have been a community, but nothing of the sort exists now outside of individuals so shallow in their character that all they can be "proud" of is the types of bodies they spend physically intimate moments with.//
I remember when conservatives in the latter half of the 20th century painted people like you as all a bunch of degenerates who secretly just wanted to hurt little boys. They also didn't have any evidence to back up what they said. They also pained a huge group of people based on small fractions of people they knew about.
I love that Jordan literally just wants to uncover the truth, not his truth. You rarely see an academic admit they don't know the answer to something, and especially when they literally vocalize weighing out the pros and cons.
Completely disagree - I hear academics say I don’t know all the time..
Meanwhile, JP’s ‘unbiased’ world view just so happens to align with almost everything conservatives believe - including climate change denial, lower taxes, and anti-BLM. He frequently cites wrong statistics that fit his beliefs.
@@Dudemar0 Those beliefs you just cited are not exclusive to conservatives; many liberals hold those views as well. Secondly, Peterson does not deny climate change; he actually stated (after reading a lot of literature) that the data of what he's read seems accurate. He only thinks that it's mostly been construed erroneously; that change is necessary, but the best approach is discuss and plan; not to panic, develop authoritarian tactics, and kill millions of poor people in the process. That sounds to be a reasonable view to me.
@@Emloch Petersons approach is indistinguishable in results and agenda when it comes to climate change. It essentially bids us to do nothing while donning the facade of being proactive and pensive. The science is rather clear and the rate of warming is unprecedented on the paleoclimate record. If we reach a 4C world in the next century, it will be catastrophic. Peterson is exaggerating "panicking". Perhaps we should.
I also take Peterson with a grain of salt because he tends to veer from science and the scientific method when supporting points. He'll often conflate analytical and experminetal psychology since he realizes his audience will often be able to tell the difference. His arguements on religion such as with Matt just left me bewildered.
@@Emloch that's certainly true... many neolibs do align with JP's views
@@zurzakne-etra7069 Also many traditional liberals and centralists.
Fantastic interview!! Really well done by both in order to discuss a really contentious topic. Credit where credit is due, Kyle did his job really well.
Pity Peterson didn't show up sober. But when did he ever?
Maybe he did a good interview, but Kyle’s is certainly on the wrong side of the argument. The facts, common sense and reality side with Jordan.
@@treadinglightly-gg9cc the guy's an anti-drinker and very vocal advocate against the act. wtf are you even talking about??
I appreciate left and right ideas coming together in proper and respectful discourse.
We need more debates like these
agreed. this was very thought provoking
Tucker carlson cenk ugyar actually had a super civil one a few years ago that was interesting.
Kudos to these two... both of these fellas adeptly raised interesting aspects of this topic.
Debates solve nothing.
No we need reality
Wow it's the first time I hear a real, legitimate debate from two opposing sides on this topic. Maybe the tides are turning and soon we'll be able to have more debates. Kyle kulinsky and Jordan Peterson are pioneers for this discussion. Especially JP for having such an honest response. I loved it when such a smart man said "I don't know". That was a surprise and also a window to further discussion. Thanks breaking points for posting this!
Imean he yaps about this subject 24/7 it’s kinda embarrassing he doesn’t have an actual position on it
@@bootsie5396 it's a complicated matter. And that part maybe should be left to medical boards. Plus we would need more data and way more debating to decide whether trans surgeries have a net benefit. I think it's honorable for a man to admit when he's not sure about something.... In Canada we have a public health care system so perhaps a debate whether tax dollars should cover these procedures is warranted.
@@adabialynicka9188 we're still far from christian conversion therapy....
He doesn’t and yet speaks like he does. That’s the definition of an idiot
Smart seems debatable to me.
Talks Intelligently, sure.
Honestly Peterson was more aggressive than needed. I feel like the host composed himself well, and haven’t seen Jordan act this way very many times
This was a fantastic conversation. Kyle did a great job remaining open since Jordan is so passionate about this topic. Great job
Jordan is passionate because "trans" is entirely psychological. No biological basis whatsoever, for all except for a tiny %-age of people who are hermaphroditic or biologically asexual.
You mean passionate about tap dancing around when he gets called out on his sophistry?
I LOVE this type of format. We should be allowed to express our opinion without someone regulating the conversation. Tired of adult conversations being moderated with inherent biases.
preach!
Yeah it is called a "conversation". Before 9/11 this was normal. After that everything became political.
@@jccusell Everything IS political. People are just snowflakes and refuse that other people exist.
Keep it coming Breaking Points 👌 More segments like this, please
These are the conversations we need to have.
I have always been a left-leaning person but I am also a fan of Jordan Peterson, I 100% agree with him on so many topics, especially on trans issues.
Both men had their strong points, I agree with Dr. Peterson when it comes to children, as a matter of principle though: I believe adults should have complete autonomy over their bodies. Should a person decide to transition as an adult is completely up to that person.
Ofcourse, mutilate your body all you want. Just don't make it accesible for kids. People have been doing things to change their bodies for the entirety of human history.
Let's be Honest We knew it
ruclips.net/video/z54RsDzwnBk1/видео.html
I think the trans movement is going to end up doing far more damage than good but I agree that adults if mentally well should be able to do what they want.
"I believe adults should have complete autonomy over their bodies"
Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) is a rare, infrequently studied and highly secretive condition in which there is a mismatch between the mental body image and the physical body. Subjects suffering from BIID have an intense desire to amputate a major limb or severe the spinal cord in order to become paralysed.
Do you think that adults with BIID should have the right to have themselves mutilated?
@@natewhite192 mentally well adults as a rule don't become trans though i find this statement contradictory
I think at the heart of what Mr. Peterson is saying is that we are being painted this “all is hunky dory” picture of those who transition when in reality, even if for arguments sake that’s what would theoretically be best for them, the real world physical results are very blunt and complicated. The activism surrounding this paints the picture of these transitioned folks finally being able to live as their “true selves” but in 99% of instances that newfound true self has a myriad of health issues and physical complications to deal with. I think he’s harping on the reality that we don’t live in a futuristic Star Trek world where you can just switch your gender, back and forth, consequence free from Chris Hemsworth to Cindy Crawford. Thus his long pause on the question of banning it. I’m sure he knows how totalitarian it could be construed to be hung up on that but he’s well versed enough on the subject to recognize the immense issues of it being allowed to begin with.
Physically altering your body to try and appear as something you’re not (biologically) and signing up for a lifetime of hormonal treatments that are only there to supply you with something you were never gonna have to begin with is not just a decision, it’s a crossroads that can’t be undone. That’s a hell of a Pandora’s box to open up at any age.
no one is 'hunky dory' because we are all trapped in rotting corpses. Why do you care how someone chooses to spend their time in their own meat robot?
He's not saying here or anywhere that the results are "blunt and complicated." If anything, he's saying that they are clearly bad. If we want to fault "the left" for doing the uncomplicated 'It's all hunky dorey" thing, I think it is fair to fault Peterson for doing an equally uncomplicated "It's all gloomy and wrong" thing.
And they have the choice is exercise that choice. That's about it. Go along with it and wish them the best. Or sit around stewing about it all day like Jordan as though he can pontificate some string of sentences that'll solve anything.
I imagine that 99% of the facts you state are as accurate as your claim that 99% of trans people suffer after they transition.
If it’s between a lifetime of gender dysphoria, crippling self-esteem problems, and suicidal ideation and taking hormone pills once a day/week, most trans people would choose the latter. People don’t really empathize with trans people partly because it’s a strange and alien experience to them. I would love if transphobes and similar people to that would take the time to listen to the real life experiences of trans people.
This reminds me of "think of the children" from the simpsons 😂
As always Jordan cuts through the bs and gets right to the point, while Kyle to his credit although all over the place, accepts the discussion without taking it personally unlike 99% of people interviewing Jordan.
Not really it was the opposite. I like Peterson but he was full of it here
Peterson getting right to the point? Lmao. The guy has some interesting ideas but he’s the modern day king of talking in philosophical circles
@@yoeyyoey8937agreed, like why was Peterson so damn angry? These were easily refutable points Kyle left on the table and Jordan looked like he busted a braincell trying to figure out a response.
That's literally the complete opposite of what was happening. I think Peterson has become a smug narcissistic hack, who's personal vendetta and hatred for the "left" and anyone who questions his authority is an "enemy"
More like Jorden cuts through the points and gets right to bullshit. Jorden couldn't answer simple questions like what about if an adult wants to undergo the operation. Why should they be denied. Jorden had to think for like 30 sec before coming up with some bullshit excuse based on his "feeling" and absolutely no facts.
Its like saying if we allow people to be openly gay, then everyone will become gay and no one will have babies and human beings will go extinct. What an absolute garbage response.
There are extremely skinny people who feel fat but we don’t encourage them to pursue weight loss surgery. We say they have emotional/ mental issues. Rachel Dozer (President of a chapter of the NAACP), when she was found to be white not black even though she said she identified as black everyone ridiculed her. But somehow cutting of your private parts is ok? We are in the upside down😳
You don't see how thin, extremely low body fat models being on all of our advertising isn't promoting a thin lifestyle? Do you think that models aren't 'encouraging' people to take on the cosmetic surgeries many of them have taken to make themselves appear this way by virtue of being included in advertising? How can you say advertising conventionally attractive people doesn't push people towards plastic surgery and liposuction, while simultaneously believing someone being Trans is promoting gender reassignment surgery?
Your ideology is flimsy and your rational is inconsistent.
@@TheDJYosh I think you're misunderstanding what Pkginbro said. He's arguing the point that the medical community is wrong for encouraging youngsters with body dyspmorphia or gender confusion to undergo surgery or drug therapy. He uses the example that doctors don't prescribe already underweight patients calorie restricting diets or encourage them to undergo weight loss surgery so why are they doing it with patients with (potential or actual) body dysmorphia.
@Sweswirl It was never a good example to begin with. Comparing an eating disorder with gender dysphoria is comparing apples to oranges.
Not to mention there are lots of invasive cosmetic surgery that doesn't need any kind of doctor's referral at all. If I went to the US with a wad of cash I could pay someone to fill my arm tissues with oil so that I looked more muscular and felt more masculine. I could get leg lengthening surgery. But no one seems concerned about the fucked up things cisgendered people will pay to have done to their bodies to perform their perceived gender role.
@@TheDJYosh the examples you just listed are widely ridiculed and rightfully regarded as weird, not normalized. There are whole documentaries "marveling" at people who undergo extensive surgeries to fulfill some sort of fantasy or "idealistic" vision for themselves - and everyone recognizes the freakish nature of what that person has done to their self. Even celebrities who undergo too many facelifts are mocked, and their operations are far less transformative to their overall appearance/being.
It is no different than trans operations, except the spectators (vast swathes of the public and children) have been been gaslit into believing that what they're witnessing isn't a grotesque indulgence of impulses, born of unchecked mental illness. Worse than unchecked, gender dysphoria is celebrated, encouraged, and given a platform. So much so, that individuals philosophically struggling to grasp their overall human identity see trans issues as an acceptable escape route or explanation for what's "wrong" with them - when in fact it is a temporary, inadequate mask that only eventually exacerbates the underlying psychological/physiological issues they have.
It can also not be ignored that at the end of the day, absolutely no amount of butchering can actually turn a male into a female, or vice versa. It is a costume, at best. And just like any person pretending to be someone that they're not, there will always be a deep internal discomfort stemming from that inescapable fact that they are not who they say they are. They are fraudulent. And others know it as well; a lie only goes so far.
Females with what are considered to be predominantly male social characteristics are not males; they are females with male personality traits. At a base level, there is nothing wrong with cross-gender tendencies, and this has been accepted as reality for all of time. To put as simply as possible, not every girl likes pink princesses, and not every guy is into monster trucks - nobody disputes the obvious variations of femininity and masculinity. And generally speaking, that is perfectly fine. Discrepancies in gender norms does not change the reality of who people actually are, though.
Rachel Dolezal, get the name right if you want to make a comment.
I'm with Jordan on this one. Unfortunately it's hard to argue with people who argue with their gut and not their brain
Peterson was literally seething answering basic questions. If he weren't such a beloved online guru you'd all be makikg fun of him for acting 'like a woman'. Goddamn, so much emotion and such little facts. Did you actually take the time to research any of the studies he cited?
@@MonkeyDIvan It's called passion and conviction, he knows what he is talking about. And he does have plenty to back it up. Are you qualified to make this judgement on him ? Are you even taking into account the amount of different people he speaks with on a consistent basis? I wonder how you would be emotionally if you were constantly being harassed and threatened wherever you went. I think he does a wonderful job of maintaining sanity. Have you ever thought that he actually cares deeply for people and their "long term" well being? Not their short term emotional relief. Jordan knows there is deeper issues that need to be addressed in most cases.
Liberals get way too emotional to think straight. I know I was one for 30 years. I never understood why conservatives hated people so much. It wasn't that at all though. I just wasn't thinking. I wanted the best for everyone even if it screwed everything up. I didn't think it all the way through to the end. I know for sure that's what's wrong with most liberals. It's all about, well it makes me feel good now so that's what we are doing.
Bro this sounds like David cross and Kermit having an interview
If someone is white but feels like a minority--should they qualify for reparations?
Great conversation. We need more discussion like this in public square.
Yea 👍
It was terrible. Jordan's talking points are so stupid that even I got them
Kyle falling for the neomarxist cult dogma, sad
@@ottoginafiel5468 wut?
@@nutritional_yeet you dont even know your own ideology. Marcuse.
We need more conversations like this
Yes we do! The mainstream media is scared of these types of discussions...
We need to push back and fight against these degenerates. The time for conversation is over, tolerating and respecting these deviants who just want to indoctrinate and mutilate our children is what got us in this sh*t show to begin with.
@@user-zx1ir7jt4c Did you really name yourself after that disgusting devil-worshipping f*ggot !?
@DesroQc yeah you like?
Just watch Jordan Peterson's channel. It doesn't stop.
It’s not a debate, it’s an interview
Yes, it was. Peterson tried to make it a debate but Kyle was not debating anything.
It's amazing that chopping healthy body parts of kids who don't conform to gender stereotypes is considered a "moral panic" by the same people who think a celebratory kiss is sexual assault.
Taking Kyle's anecdote of the trans person who felt their transition was beneficial, I completely understand Peterson's reluctance to blindly accept that as a positive outcome. Kyle says, "Who am I to say (they aren't happy)?" As a lay person that is sertainly the case but, as a physician or clinical psychologist, we can't speak for long term effects - either medical or psychological - with certainty. In that setting a clinical endorsement is arguably irresponsible. To take a different example sometimes patients come to me (a clinician) with chronic pain who demand that, all they need, is as much morphine/demerol/vicodin etc. they can handle. Should I just give it to them because they asked for it or does my clinical knowledge task me with a more informed opinion?
I don't know if it is that different from what Plastic Surgeons have to decide. I think there could be a very strong argument to be made that plastic surgeons can never predict the long term medical or psychological consequences of their work on each particular patient. It varies from patient to patient. Should we outlaw plastic surgery? It"s not medically necessary. I think if there is 100% evidence that the outcomes are always negative, then perhaps it should be outlawed. However, that certainly is hard to prove when the negative side effects are often mostly psychological and not physical. This is unlike the example you gave of giving too much morphine where potential side effects are more physical (not psychological) and easier to prove as negative.
@@CJ-mq3mk I disagree. The consequences of gender reassignment are not merely cosmetic, such as with a face-lift. Remember, this also involves manipulation of hormones and removal of hormone-producing organs. In that setting we have to consider long term consequences such as osteoporosis, risk of thrombotic events such as pulmonary embolism, coronary disease, stroke and to various forms of cancer. This is not to mention whether or not the long term psychological benefit truly is positive or if there is underlying depression or psychosis that gets worse or ignored. I'm not saying this should be illegal, but I'm also not sure we know enough to say that it is necessary beneficial in all cases. I think Peterson alluded to a statistic that suicide rates don't improve after gender reassignment and, possibly, even get worse. In light of that I would certainly want to know more about the condition and the procedure before I endorse it in every case.
I am in clinical practice and I happen to have some transgender patients in my panel. I can think of two cases where the person regretted their decision to transition for medical and psychological reasons, both. In both cases they stopped taking their hormones and, without the resources, support or courage to detransition, remain disfigured in their own eyes. One expressed to me that the overwhelming "encouragement" he had in the beginning was effectively coercive, although he doesn't want to blame anyone for a decision he ultimately made for himself. He just wished he had been exposed to a counter argument. Interestingly the supportive community wasn't really there for him anymore when he felt he made a bad decision.
Peterson makes fair points here. Paige's media campaign will influence young unstable kids
@@stevencoardvenice you can't say people can't do something "because kids". The world doesn't revolve around kids. You can't sanitize everything because kids exist.
@@doctorfeinstone6524 that's not what i said. I'm saying her media tour is not wise
Jordan is right about the community description. I’ve noticed that we never hear from trans people who are concerned bout young people being in danger of making the wrong decision. They are not a homogenous group. They have differing opinions. We only think of them as all the same.
Who said communities are necessarily "homogenous groups"? The etymology of "community" means "to go/move with" and is related to "common". The word can refer to subgroups that have narrow interests "in common", but most often it refers to large-ish groups whose only fundamental commonality is that they share the same living space, such as towns and cities. But if you want to insist the word is misapplied and inappropriate, what other word would you use to refer to people who have identification with LGBTQ+ issues?
@Jack Sheridan and here is the stereotypical over-zealous far-right anti trans guy in his/her natural habitat:
*THE RUclips COMMENT SECTION*
lets have a look at this comment... random rambling at the start that has nothing to do with the comment, check, ooooh and then they call it a cult, that's a new one, ah and then they play the most typical card in the book for this type of person, you know it, you hate it, you love it (you probably hate it) the dreaded *WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?*
in all seriousness why do y'all always jump straight to thinking about the kids? like a know the catholic church is known to have issues with pederasty and all but people like you seem to pull this stunt so much it kinda worries me
@@KravMagoo I wouldn’t use any word. That’s my point.
@@KravMagoo Tran individuals, that is it. There is no real over lapping and you aren't talking about gay people when you mean Trans. Out of LGBT 3 of those types of people have no need or thought for surgery and by adding the plus at the end the whole group is become more and more of a worthless term. It is just becoming a group think mob instead of looking more towards individuality.
@@Blt-rr2lm nah buddy, time to stand the line, alphabet people are facilitating societal degradation, and I'm most likely moving to a country like Singapore,UAE where you can be an alphabet person but you better not glorify that crap in public
Jordan is THE MAN!
Gays Against Groomers is a great organization speaking out against interfering with minor children. Not all “LGBT” support what is happening, in fact most do not.
Great to see discussion like this. Need more of this.
Let's be Honest We knew it
ruclips.net/video/z54RsDzwnBk/видео.html
Tbh wasn't much of a conversation in terms of a solid point by Jordan "going insane" peterson
@@paulswabek173 How about "women dont have penises" - that would be a good start.
@@elingrome5853 you sound a lot like josh hawley.
Yesssss I love seeing right wingers get smacked around for an hour.
That was outstanding! When two people I respect disagree it always leads to a great conversation. I hope to see more in the future!
Peterson took a stance. Other guy wouldn't. Yea what a champion
@@natecollison8331 elaborate
if you respect Jordan Peterson then you're an incel
I want to see Kyle debate Daniel Haqiqatjou on liberalism, including lgbtq, trans acceptance etc.
Kyle is out of his depth here.
My prayer is that JP never stops caring, and standing up for the most vulnerable.
Where’s the rest of the video? It just cuts off?
I don't know what universe Kyle is living in but I have seen trans identified 9 yr olds at my daughter's school, so yes, there has been a huge shift in our culture in terms of gender identity in recent years. I also know of teens getting irreversible surgery. I would like to see some data on the number of young people who de-transition or have regrets about surgery and the irreversible effects of hormone treatments.
Sean, I don't think we live in bizarre and crazy times, we live in outright dangerous times. If populace will not come to their senses in short order...... God help us all.
Oh, I think we’re going to see a few of those stories in the coming years. Permanent solution to a passing fascination…😑
Without a doubt we are going to see in the next decade a slew of problems with this. Its absurd
Kyle “isn’t taking a position, in any way, shape or form, on the kids”. That’s the universe.
Parents fault.
I always respect when someone can admit that they do not know and need to think about and discuss something more
Transgenderism is no different than cutting or anorexia.
Gender affirming care is no different than telling some who is anorexic that they are fine and it’s fine if they eat less and maybe they actually just don’t need food and they should just cut out their stomach.
People have to be blind to not see this.
Drop the T etc. from LGB.
A discussion no one else in America is having in public. Good stuff, Breaking Points.
Plenty of people are having this discussion.
@@richmrstonestone you're like 8 months late bud lol
Matt Walsh and other’s are talking about it.
A 'discussion' implies a two way respectful way conversation. it is not the one way traffic of one person practically monologuing their rationale (1:30 - 6:27) and then disrespectfully nit pick and not allowing the other to develop their position. JP is a fool and a bigot.
@@ablackgoliath1827 dying on the hill of what a discussion is and then calling a great intellectual a fool and a bigot in the comment section of a RUclips video that's a year old is pretty telling my friend. I hope you breathe some air and touch some grass today, friend.
I'm a trans woman and transitioning has made me significantly happier, but I definitely agree it's not for children. The way that's being pushed on them is nuts
We really need more sensible trans people like yourself to speak out on that. You're an adult, you can make your own decisions. A child's mind is easily molded. As a parent your job is to guide your child onto a healthy fulfilling path while trying your hardest not to warp their mind into what that path might be. The left ideology is doing it's damnedest to warp it for you.
Ah, but do you accept the fact that you are actually a man, you just (perhaps) feel better if you present yourself 'as a woman' to others?
Do you feel 'slighted' if someone - upon learning that you are actually a man - doesn't wish to accept your 'womanhood'? Do you think the society should be forced to accept you as a 'woman' even though you aren't a woman, in fact?
Those are the critical questions.
You can't transition..you're a bloke and always will be
Hey man!
@@haitolawrence5986 bro you're part of the problem. There's no reason to purposely try to make people feel bad about themselves. That's part of the reason the left is so psychotic now. Hate fules hate. This person is agreeing with what we think, and you're still making fun of them. Grow up dude
Peterson is an interesting person. He is clearly taking a lot of things into consideration when he answers a question. He is VERY much in favor of individual rights, but the issue of medical intervention is a complex one. Imagine if doctors started amputating limbs for people with body integrity disorder without much care for ethics or diagnosis?
Kype needs to understand something very important. Jordan Peterson is not someone who throws away an important issue while pondering about related things. He can't just endorse a celebrity promoting this kind of surgery because the impact on kids is too large. There is no right answer, but the issue in this case comes from the ideologies making the transition something to be proud of, instead of a serious medical condition.
I think this was a good debate. The guy has his opinion and itd trying to understand what JP thinks about it. I dont kniw why peoole get so butthurt and ssnsitive about debates. Of course they are going to clash. Its a debate. JP did good answering the questions.
My late father was a transexual, full post op - we were very close and I loved him dearly. Becoming a woman was the beginning of the end for him, the surgeries and hormones were hell on his body, and in the end he did not stand by his decision to become a woman, as he found that life was no better as a man or a woman. I am with Jordan on this one.
If you don't like yourself as one sex, switching to another won't change that --and will only cause more trouble in your life.
Powerful. People forget that it is a medical procedure. Medical procedures have massive risks. They should never be undertaken unless absolutely necessary. Joan Rivers went for her hundredth facelift and it wiped her our
But that was your dad's experience. There are many others that do well after transitioning. It has to be a carefully considered process.
@@cjojay not really that why so many have committed suicide
@@adrianjohnson7920 and you will never "switch" there is no so thing as switching.
So is a trap.
Interesting discussion. Would love to see more of this.
Maybe just do brain surgery, that is why the problem is.
2nd.
Go to Krystal Kyle and Friends on Substack for the whole interview. It's good and about an hour and 20 minutes. There's probably a link in the description of this video.
This was not a discussion lmao. This was a one sided vitriolic rant with a couple polite questions in between
@@vanessacarly5140 JP was definitely pearl clutching at one point and kept referring to Kyle as "you people" until Kyle had to tell him he didn't even hold those beliefs, lol.
Still, this is sadly about as good as it gets in politics nowadays.
I am so proud of you amd thankful that you operate in the public square!!!! Good job to the interviewer
Kyle doesn't understand the ramifications of influencing children to do something they might not do if their brains were developed fully.