On the contrary, CTF is great for newbies. The slow pace and directionless gameplay gives them a "safe" and simple environment to get grips with the basic mechanics. For example Turtling engies learn the basics of sentry range, placement, spies, explosives etc. Where in any other gamemode they wouldn't even get a dispenser up before a soldier main with 2000 hours has wiped them out. A match of payload for a fresh install is a complete sensory overload.
CTF also comes basically prebuilt with a slow down for tryhards. It allows the new players to get comfortable facing other humans (something a tutorial can't teach) without having to compete with Hardcore Action Man, Stomper Of Pubs. Like, imagine how much 'basic' information a tutorial would need? Teaching you strafing. Teaching you what a sightline is. Teaching you how to pay attention for Ubers. Teaching you how to navigate a team fight. Teaching you what a spy is and how to detect one. Teaching you complex movement mechanics like rocket jumping. He brings up how the CTF maps don't allow for teamfights, THEY DO, just mini team fights. Like a 2 vs 2, which is already way more complex than someone whose never played a multiplayer would have ever experienced. Let CTF be the shallows. Let it be boring. I remember when I was a little kid, I LOVED CTF because I would get rolled in other maps. But one day, I grew up enough to participate in those other maps. And I am sure many others have similar stories. Tuefort, my beloved boring map.
I've been here since the beginning (Sept 2007) and have probably queued for CTF ...maybe 10 times over almost 17 years because of how unbalanced/stalematey I find the game mode (esp 2fort), but you might have just given me a new perspective. I never thought about the very real benefit of having a slower, prolonged game mode would be for newer players. If you ask me though, TF2 should just have an official Deathmatch, and "Sandbox/Trade" mode, and CTF should get a rework. For people who want to complete the objective in CTF, it is still a nightmarish experience (people trying to complete contracts are a perfect testament to this), and it's at the expense of one of the funnest game modes in any other online game (Halo, UT, WoW). I came from TFC, where grenades allowed all classes to be able to take down sentries, and scout (and medic)'s nailgun (100% accurate) allowed them to particularly be a threat along with the standard power classes. SG's also seemed to have less health. It helped prevent turtlefests greatly. When I came to TF2 I was struck immediately by how prone CTF was to turtling & they've never seemed to come up with a solution. I ran a server that was fairly popular from 2012-2013 and I ended up making a bold decision to limit engies to 1 (yes, 1) on CTF, despite it being my 2nd most played class. There were grumblings every now and then but everyone seemed to end up agreeing it played a lot better. People would actually have to actively defend, instead of leaving 2 afk engies to encompass a 97% effective defense by sitting idling by their Level 3's.
There are very good points to be made for both sides I think, i think both CTF and other modes all have their own ways to uniquely teach new players at a different pace. some of the newer CTF maps for example can be very good teachers since they're kind of a best of both worlds but other maps like 2Fort while it can still be very enjoyable as a chill map to play on, doesn't really teach new players much about how to objectively play each class. I do for sure agree though that other modes leave new players to be stomped much easier, thank you for the comment!
2:45 good to remind every new player: the needle doesn't point to the flag spawn point but the flag current location. If someone is carrying it you can determine where they are by just looking at it.
In my opinion, there should be two types of CTF. CTF classic as how it currently is, and an improved CTF mode with many of the same maps. This way people can still mess around on 2fort, but also have proper matches.
Agreed! CTF is such a unique experience where you can just mess around and try out new load outs without having the pressure of having to defend the objective but can still if you want when you find the right map. So I think it would be great to have the option to play competitively by having the new gameplay mode and the old maps but also have the option to play passively or just be and friendly.
I agree! I think CTF is still such a fun mode to play on at times however the way it works now doesn't really fit well as a core gamemode. two types of it however could be a good step in the right direction!
12:45 "... and we know that because Sniper is a playable class" I aggree. Sniper is a balancing nightmare but even with a god tier sniper on the enemy team you can still have a great time... in the spawn room.
I think a prime change that CTF could benefit from is "counter-capping" your own intel to hasten the timer and return it to base faster. Makes for last second saves deep in enemy territory less brutal overall.
Haarp is so much fun compared to what I thought it would be! I love being on BLU team, nabbing the briefcase and capturing as fast as I can via rocket jumping! The only things that I don't like about it is how some people don't understand the objective and where to go, and how if you're on RED team, you stand next to no chance of winning. Really fun map, very unique concept, wish we could have a server dedicated to Haarp alone (for both Americans and Australians), ten out of ten, would 100% recommend!
(Small nitpick, it's actually not unique, it's literally how A/D worked in TFC, lol. If you want, just look for a Dustbowl server in TFC or custom maps like avanti if by some miracle you can find one). But yes, I agree, it's nice to see it come back to TF2. I like that one talented player can still sway the match if Red is pubstomping. I disagree it's impossible to win as Red, I've done it many times, and in fact again in TFC we didn't even have that HUD element to point to the intel, just had to rely on good old fashioned communication, haha. But yeah, I try to reiterate how crucial the HUD arrow is when I join HAARP games and explain the mode if someone asks. Good engineers are also key. Btw I said this in another comment but not sure if people realize HAARP has existed for over 15 years as a community map in TF2. If you couldn't tell yes I am old, lol.
HAARP was a map that I'd been following for quite a while and it was really cool to finally see it officially part of the game. while the map itself does use old balancing methods which makes it really easy to spam on the gamemode it features is super fun and I would love to see other older A/D CTF maps added. thank you though for the comment!
Dude your channel is a diamond in the rough. The editing looks fantastic for a channel with less than 10k subs and best of all you are a TF2 player with a good mic
I was more referring to it being a new concept specifically for TF2's official modes, it is true classic attack/defend and the attack/defend ctf mode have been around for a while which is why its nice to finally see it officially being used!
Personally I find the classic CTF maps to be a lot more fun on community servers where they've removed the capture limit and it's just endless casual deathmatch lobby where you basically can do whatever you want within them. And it allows for things like randomiser or x10 mode to make things interesting. These maps become infinitely more fun when the actual objective gets removed lol But CTF is also one of my favourite modes in any shooter so to see Applejack, and especially Haarp where it eliminates a majority of the core problems plaguing this mode from being played more competitively is so great see. Personally I do hope to see future CTF maps take on Haarps model more because that really is clever use of utilising the attack/defend model. Seriously, fantastic job on the map creators.
I agree, the classic maps are always a fun thing to return back to occasionally but adding more balanced CTF maps would be a huge benefit to the mode. Thank you for the comment!
I always thought the cap point should be at mid so there's an actual fight over the intelligence instead of what usually happens which is either the enemy team having to camp it for an entire minute or making it home free to their base and just goofing off to stall round time. The best thing for it is to become king of the hill with extra steps that change the dynamics of combat, like how payload is just attack/defend but you have to carry the objective with you.
I think gamemodes that encourage you to not take things too seriously and goof around are good; and, while they might not offer the most well rounded experience for new players, they do get at the core vibe of the game better than most other gamemodes can.
I agree, this is very similar to what I think about CTF. I don't think its a very good gamemode balance-wise but to show the silliness of the game and fun parts of the game, CTF does that really well!
little tip for people if the enemy team on 2fort is building up in your sewers and your team cannot clear it out then try cap since most likely there defense team and engies are all focused in the sewers. you capping will cause some of the team to flee back to base to defend making it easier to destroy the engie nests. also if you find a engie nest in the sewers early and destroy know that the engie WILL TRY TO REBUILD AND WILL COMEBACK 2fort engies are stuborn bastards so just bully them untill they stop coming into the sewers.
Haarp may work better because it's not really CTF, but an escort gamemode which lead to the birth of the payload mode. Another mode that actually works is the Crasher and Carrier that improve the escort format by buffing the carrier into a Giant, a human controlled payload cart. People have incentive to congregate around the carrier and not scatter around the map. Haarp has a huge issues: points only need one capture and the carrier only needs to touch the capture area to win. It also cannot have tall ceilings for rocket jumping because you can just fly over the red team with the intel. Stage C, point 1 you only need to rocket jump over the glass between intel and the capture zone which is easy to do in under 5 seconds. Crasher and Carrier these problems are solved with capture times and giants being not able to rocket jump... except as a quick-fix medic?
If a middle ground was ever placed between Haarp and maps like Crasher it would be the best version of a somewhat CTF mode. I definitely should have brought up Crasher and Carrier those are really good points, thank you for the comment!
This is how all games are, it's a attack ans defend mode but both teams are attacking and defending so it let's you choose what ever class you want to play and learn. I've seen more alt forms of tacts in CTF then any other gamemode. It's the perfect mode to just have fun
I completely agree, Capture the Flag is very important to TF2 because its the best mode to play on when you want to simply just do whatever you want. While I do think it's a lot more far off as being a good representative of TF2's other core gamemodes, I still agree with my conclusion that CTF could be fine how it is as its a good display to TF2's true silliness. Thank you for the comment!
Haarp is such a nice map, i've almost forgot how it feels when the entire team coordinate itself towards one objective. and it's layout is quite unique for that too
I think a good way to fix ctf is to make the intel cap infinite and add a round timer of like 5 minutes and whoever caps the intel the most wins, this would encourage more aggressive play and make turtling engineers much less powerful. Another thing they can do is go back to older maps like 2fort and turbine and fix a lot of the issues that cause the maps to stalemate so much, kinda like what they did with steel.
CTF is supposed to be kinda aimless. You have the objectives stated, and there is no pressure to do it. Other than the rest of your team encouraging you to go for objective. I have taught so many new players how to play the game in CTF. Teaching engies how to be mindful of sentry placement and how to use dispensers or teles effectively. Teaching pyros some airblast and a how to spot opportunities to go do the funny pyro thing without dying as much. Teaching medics how to heal and understand how they make an impact. And how to use their teammates and the terrain for cover. Even giving advice to snipers on different ways to think about sniping. Its a crapfest if you look at it through the eyes of a medium to high skill player. Because it is the training ground for new people. And its also the place you go to just relax. And on top of all of that, its one of the best places to find odd people doing odd things for fun. CTF is perfect, but not for you. Because it was made for everything other than the objective. Not intentionally by the devs, though in sure very intentionally like with 2fort, but the community also made this a reality. And players go right where they are expected to, wherever they feel the get their joy.
I'll quickly note. I don't mean any negativity in this at all. It's just a genuine thing. There is so much stuff you can do in tf2. And not every part is made for you, the one reading comments, but there are parts of it for everyone. Enjoy your part to the fullest gamers
I agree that CTF is just as important to TF2 as the other modes which is what makes this dilemma in the first place. People absolutely love the silliness of CTF even though its imbalance makes it a gamemode not comparable to the other ones you'll find in the core gamemodes. I do appreciate your comment though and nice to see you teaching the ways of TF2 to new players!
10:43 HAARP didn't invent CTF/AD. That was just how A/D worked in Team Fortress Classic. Also it's old. HAARP was created in 2009 for a CTF/AD mapping contest.
Yes! HAARP is a map that I've been following for a long time but I was more referring to HAARP and the A/D CTF mode not being new, but instead new to TF2's officially added maps and modes!
1. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with there being no defined attack or defend objective for a mode to work. CP and PLR both accomplish this perfectly fine, and while they can occasionally stall out or stalemate, the nature of your objective fluctuates with the gamestate and that's perfectly fine. 2. A round timer works specifically for the purpose of making sure that rounds end eventually. The game supports it already, even. But introducing this into official servers will come at the expense of people who actively play CTF as a sort of makeshift TDM. Remember when casual payload used stopwatch rules? People hated having that constraint placed upon them because they just wanted to play the full rounds out. A setting being supported and a good thing doesn't necessarily mean it's desired by the people it impacts. CTF is neglected in any form of organized play anyway, and that'd be the only place that I'd advocate for a timer being part of the format rules (such as the pisspoor competitive matchmaking including turbine for some reason). 3. The reason CTF becomes TDM is because most of the maps are absolute shit for actually playing the objective. Why bash your head endlessly into a swarm of turrets and explosives when you can just play in the neutral space between the two bases and have a modestly good time? Hightower has a similar "problem" by being extremely difficult to get up both rollback zones so players have defaulted to treating it as a faux pas to even attempt to do so. 4. Even if good CTF maps are added to the game, there's a new problem: Flag resets. In older games the flag was easy to return to your base by just touching it but this isn't the case in TF2. It instead has to wait out a painfully long timer. If the intel is easy enough to get to and move through the map, once it reaches a certain threshold it becomes nigh impossible to actually defend it. The timer is pathetically easy to reset by throwing Bonk scouts and DR Spies at it. This is ultimately an unavoidable problem in a game with on-demand invuln/resists. Gang Garrison, a TF2 fangame from 2008, addressed this intel timer reset problem by requiring the intel carrier to hold onto the flag for long enough, and only then will it provide a timer reset. So while you could just throw bodies at the flag, you had to make sure that body actually survived long enough to turn around with the flag in tow. CTF as a mode in TF2 is otherwise fine, aside from capture crits being kind of a piss off measure. Nothing short of good maps will make any mode enjoyable. Special Delivery didn't work not because of the mode design, but because Doomsday is a travesty of a map. People claim that PLR is a stalemate fest by pointing to Hightower and Pipeline but conveniently ignore Banana Bay. There are good CTF maps out there, it's just a lot harder to find them because the overlap between players who want to play CTF for the objective and those who want to play CTF as a killbox are not a common overlap.
Thank you for writing such a detailed and well made comment. While I agree that its fine to leave CTF the way it is but I do still think the mode could definitely benefit from new more balanced maps or other alternative gamemodes like the one on Haarp to stand as a more balanced version of Capture the Flag. The Gang Garrison solution you pointed out actually sounded like a really good fix as well however again I do agree with you changing the mode would definitely cause disagreement for the original players of the gamemode. There are very good points here showing the dilemma side to CTF and I appreciate you taking the time to write this!
Haarp should be the default. But then again, I wish the TF2 playerbase stop picking 2fort or turbine for the meme of it. We get it - “Haha its the bad map”, but 15 minutes in and its not funny anymore.
Well... that's gonna be a lot of players to disagree with you. I used to be annoyed by it but, why fight the funny, just join it or change map no reason to change the vr chat map of tf2
Of course it need change. Just simply timer and instant death on timer without losing round progress (just spawn players and turn on instant death without spawn defence) is good enought.
I love ctf_haarp so much, but i really think its core design is "what if we replace the control points on attack/defend with a briefcase". Needs a few changes tho. Very easy to spawncamp red team on stage 1 and 2 (only one spawn exit) and i think its sometimes way to easy to any% speedrun it.
Haarp definitely does hold some issues to be ironed out but it's nice to see a lot of people agree that despite this they still seem to really enjoy the map. thank you for the comment!
I see where you're coming from and how teams could be inclined to just stall out until the round ends but I could also see how it'd be a really good promotor to the other team to form an attack against their defenses. But I do think a lot of other suggestions people have made like adding more to the gamemode from Haarp and simply adding better more balanced CTF maps rather than trying to fix the actual mode with things like a round timer. I appreciate the comment!
Ngl i like the idea of adding a the timer on the ctf maps aswell as lowering the timer for the briefcase respawn, i honestly dont care if people hate the change, the gamemode sucks in general so a change would be nice
Glad to see you agree! I think though there could definitely be some compromises like adding a classic TF2 mode that is the regular no time limit and normal briefcase respawn timer. Thank you for the comment!
Out of curiosity, do you think any of the other ctf maps in the game, or even on the workshop for that matter, meet the same quality standards as applejack? I've heard good things about pelican peak but I've never properly tried it myself. I also remember an old workshop map called Urban Brook that I remember enjoying. I would also recommend a version of turbine called Newbine that fixes most of turbines glaring issues along with some gorgeous looking visuals. Here's hoping for more good ctf maps.
A very good question. for the officially added maps, I think Pelican Peak is also pretty good and is the closest other CTF map comparable to Applejack. Frosty and Sawmill however have great middle areas but their intel rooms are way too easy to defend making them similarly unbalanced. as for community maps I'm not too familiar about community CTF maps. Haarp was the only one I really consistently followed and now its actually part of the game. Well that and the 400 different versions of 2Fort. I will actually look into Urban Brook though and if I do find any really good community suggestions I'll probably add them here!
I think Crasher while it wasn't looked at since its a halloween-only map, I think thats another example of a pretty good hybrid CTF experience. While I don't think there should be a mode added that lets TF2 players be giant and have guaranteed crits, If there was a middle ground between Haarp and the idea of Crasher, I think that could potentially make the best possible balance for an alternative CTF mode. Thank you for the comment!
I'd say piss gun and classic is fair and balanced. Fuck the rest of them though. No, sticky is a problem. Every good pubstomping party stack WILL have at least 1 competent demo that wipes half the enemy team with it. Every match i've been in is basically influenced by 3 classes: Medic, Sniper & Demo. No demo --> lose to enemy sentry nest. Demo is so strong that they limit it to 1 in comp to avoid whole match becomes sticky projectile spam. He's also the only one that can uber push wrangler + pybro airblast + mittens defense cause those EIGHT projectiles deals AOE explosive damage (can damage the sentry AND the pyro/mitten heavy), whereas someone like ubered-heavy is a single-target class. TLDR; He's VERY meta-influential. And most games that I lost, it's because we have no demo.
to be honest ctf is the death match game mode for tf2 and i kinda want it to stay that way. like make the cap limit unlimted, remove it from the core game modes so new players actually start learning how to play. and replace it with gamemodes like haarp (give it a new name :3)
4:57 I think that pyro was trying to get an achievement, ignite 5 players capturing the intelligence. Historical point about TF2: when the game launched, there was an expectation that there would be a deathmatch mode like a lot of other shooters of the time, but there wasn't. This led to players treating CTF as a deathmatch mode. Great vid :)
8:52 You are COMPLEATLY and UTTERLY WRONG about first 3 points. I am "ctf exclusive" player, and first two are just plain and simple its core charm and greatness, with third just being the opposite. My first game was on 2fort, and if it wasnt, i bet my life i would not be playing the game now. 4-th one is actually true. 2fort is just bullshit (and i played like 700h on it), turbine is an actual bullshit, well is pretty bad. And this was HALF of maps before this summer.
The ending to this video is *gold* 💛 Pretty much every comment I was going to up make up to that point was marvelously addressed out of the blue. CTF could benefit from the creation of a more competitive oriented format, but as it stands it is perfect for casual, silly-maximising gameplay. It is a playable Monty Python skit, and shouldn't be "corrected" in any sense of the word.
I agree which is why its more like a hybrid-mode, It works because its attack/defend using some CTF components and why I don't think they should replace CTF if they ever went the route of fully implementing Haarp and other A/D CTF maps as its actual own gamemode. Pass Time can be fun but I think the way that it works is also every far from the idea behind each of the core modes. I appreciate the comment!
The problem with CTF is the playerbase, not the gamemode. Players don't want to actually put effort into the game because if you take the game even slightly seriously you've committed a heinous sin in the eyes of the modern TF2 community. Well, that and the removal of map timers, and the introduction of casual (which killed quickplay and community servers). CTF was much better when quickplay still existed.
the idea of players enforcing CTF to be a deathmatch only mode is a huge part as well to why CTF is unbalanced I agree! I do think the points you made though about the mode becoming more unbalanced from things like map timers being removed did contribute though to why players have made this the way it should be played. Thank you for the comment!
If any existing gamemode had a chance of trying to do "CTF but better," I absolutely feel as if Robot Destruction was a more modern (as of 2014) take on the CTF formula. Player's on both teams have objectives within their base to defend, that aren't just the flag - objectives that involves players needing to destroy the robots in the enemy teams base, and pick up the item drops that act as both teams score. Once the first tier of robots are destroyed, defenders are forced to move backwards as their second tier of robots are now vulnerable, and the attackers then have to push deeper into the enemy teams base to continue increasing their teams score. The interesting part of the gamemode to me was always the fact that even if the enemy team were in the lead, you could disrupt their win-streak by sneaking into their base to steal most if not all their points for your team; it gave the losing team a way to still win. Even if either team managed to reach 300 points, a 45 second timer would activate, giving both teams one last push or defense for all the points they currently hold. It does genuinely make me sad that the TF team abandoned the gamemode shortly later into the year, as it's the only gamemode still in it's "Beta stage". You can't queue for the gamemode either, as the only way you can play it today is through community servers, and even then, I only ever managed to find just one server hosting it, only to be switched to a different map after 6 whole full rounds.
If you think about it.. CTF and it's 1st map 2fort (while a recreation of a classic map) is infact.... the core of TF2 since it's inception. Flawed but hilarious. Silly but why not? Community and strength. It's not the competitive map anyone wants, but.. it's the map people go to to do fun things. In the beginning it was used to learn the game.. now? it's used to be a fun loving mode/map that brings out the shine of TF2's community. All the meme's? 2fort. All the sillies? 2fort. Even the map it self is ridiclous with both bases being divided by a single bridge. The premise alone just shouts: "Yea... we ain't serious" No matter what you look at it from.. it is... a "CORE MODE" just not in the sense of playing the game as competitively intended, but community intended.
The point that I made was a more all-rounded look at the mode, yes there are some less stalemating maps but theres also as you said the other Valve maps that are always stalemated. I appreciate the comment though!
I really dont think noobs are effected by CTF, if they like it (which they probably will) then everythinfs fine, its a good trainign course for noobs and casuals alike. If they dont like CTF bit do infact wanna stick with tf2, then theyll just play another game mode
I think they only really are affected if they believe that CTF is the same experience that they'll find in the rest of TF2, but I agree that really any of the modes can still teach them things about the game!
I honestly never liked Capture the Flag. Even if I play casually, I want a match with a consistent goal. If there were round timers on Capture the Flag, it would be a lot more engaging. Especially if the style would be that with every capture, the round timer doesn't get added time. It keeps counting down and the team with the most Intels captured is the winning team.
I agree CTF can be fun for those who just want to chill doing whatever they want but not to those who want a more balanced experience. Thank you for the comment!
I'd keep ctf as is. new ayers with functioning braincells should be able to discern between how the game is actually played and ctf. it's a mode, in the game, that exists. heck even comp players barely ever play it (if ever at all lol). it's there, it's goofy, it's tf2 in it's most purest form (insanity)
im sorry but there appears to be an auditory glitch when i try to play this video, it appears the actual voiceover has been replaced with Baby Crying - Stock Sound Effects Free on a repeated loop
Id argue the opposite. CTF is the BEST gamemode tf2 has to offer. it's truly pure tf2 cinema. 3 things: How welcoming it is for newbies, how every style of play can be enjoyed, and how there's no time limit. The flaws are there on purpose. It was, by design, to make the game become a stalemate and in the process you can enjoy how you like and stay how much time you want. By making changes into ctf that would make it more of tryhard sort of way you would ruin the very premise of the gamemode.
Well, lack of timer is one of reasons many people go to play there, 2fort especially, in most gamemodes you cant really do much of stuff you can get away on 2fort, yes new players may be confused all gamemodes are played differently but well, that is kinda point of different gamemodes, they find out how payload is played once they try out that, only thing I would change could be timer on intel be faster the closer it is to capture zone, so if ut would be barely pulled out of its spawn, it could be minute but if someone would stop it 1 meter from others team capture zone, it could be mich shorter, making it easier to hold it up so close at enemy base, giving you actually decent chance, absolutely remove that crap with crits on spawning, usually it being captured means losing team was beaten and they give winning team even crits to that, often leading to instant second capture and then likely to third then, on turbine it is most noticeable when enemies are at your spawn, making it then literally impossible to do anything at all, with unending matches, which yes, can be pain in ass, maybe adding voting option to end it, this is literally issue only when making contracts on those maps for sure or for people for some reason, that I cant comprehand, care about 'XP' thing in casual When I go play TF2 just to play, I go CtF, I dont wan to load game twenty times per hour I spend on playing, I want to just run around, shoot stuff, sometimes practice with weapons or classes I am not as much familiar with, and sure, it can be used for farming strange counters and whatever but it is least reason for me to play those specifically
That is where the idea of the CTF dilemma comes from. there is one side of players who agree that CTF is a very unbalanced mode and would want to see it fixed in some way so that it better fits as a core gamemode and others who like it for its unbalance since its something they can play on and enjoy without having to actually try or do any objectives. Thank you for the comment though!
From friendly perspective ? Yes. From playing the game to win like the original developer intended or as if it's every other gamemodes's gameplay ? The game is now horrible Trench Warfare simulator instead silly War themed Hat simulator.
My guy PLEASE get popular also if you want to be a little more entertaining then informative it would be good to have more funny micro skits like the one at 4:50
I don't play competitive much myself but a good amount of TF2's community does play both official and unofficial competitive or at the very least follows it in some way! Not nearly as much though as people who play the game for fun like myself.
Bullshit of a video….I literally saw some heavies just conga dancing and making sandwich throws because this game mode is chill as a colder cucumber in the fridge, no pun intended. I just don’t know why people will hate chilling out rather than just hyperactive objectives, it literally raised egoism and it basically lets people go insane and just eagerly to jump off the roof rather than being shit talk on. Those servers with this game mode had a reason to exist. They are not relaxation spot, there are therapists spots as well. If you hurt a person, what do you get from it. What if you achieve a win, what do get from it as well. There is a reason why people don’t like wins in this game mode and includes killing. Capture the intelligence is basically a sanctuary for both sides to showcase what good or bad sides people are. Heck, they don’t even listen to the administrators so what’s the point. Friendlies will always exist and that is fact. Tryhards…..oof they will learn the hard way😅
I don't dislike or think CTF is bad for TF2 at all. I mentioned in my conclusion that the main goal was to explore what makes CTF less balanced as an actual gamemode but stated that even with the imbalanced being able to join a mode where everyone is just chilling and doing whatever strategy they want is actually really good for TF2 which is where the dilemma of CTF comes from. I appreciate your comment though!
On the contrary, CTF is great for newbies. The slow pace and directionless gameplay gives them a "safe" and simple environment to get grips with the basic mechanics. For example Turtling engies learn the basics of sentry range, placement, spies, explosives etc. Where in any other gamemode they wouldn't even get a dispenser up before a soldier main with 2000 hours has wiped them out.
A match of payload for a fresh install is a complete sensory overload.
I too like CTF for how relaxed it is
I really don't think CTF should remain as a broken gamemode just because the devs got too lazy and scrapped proper tutorials from the game.
CTF also comes basically prebuilt with a slow down for tryhards.
It allows the new players to get comfortable facing other humans (something a tutorial can't teach) without having to compete with Hardcore Action Man, Stomper Of Pubs.
Like, imagine how much 'basic' information a tutorial would need?
Teaching you strafing. Teaching you what a sightline is. Teaching you how to pay attention for Ubers. Teaching you how to navigate a team fight. Teaching you what a spy is and how to detect one. Teaching you complex movement mechanics like rocket jumping.
He brings up how the CTF maps don't allow for teamfights, THEY DO, just mini team fights. Like a 2 vs 2, which is already way more complex than someone whose never played a multiplayer would have ever experienced.
Let CTF be the shallows. Let it be boring.
I remember when I was a little kid, I LOVED CTF because I would get rolled in other maps. But one day, I grew up enough to participate in those other maps. And I am sure many others have similar stories.
Tuefort, my beloved boring map.
I've been here since the beginning (Sept 2007) and have probably queued for CTF ...maybe 10 times over almost 17 years because of how unbalanced/stalematey I find the game mode (esp 2fort), but you might have just given me a new perspective. I never thought about the very real benefit of having a slower, prolonged game mode would be for newer players.
If you ask me though, TF2 should just have an official Deathmatch, and "Sandbox/Trade" mode, and CTF should get a rework. For people who want to complete the objective in CTF, it is still a nightmarish experience (people trying to complete contracts are a perfect testament to this), and it's at the expense of one of the funnest game modes in any other online game (Halo, UT, WoW).
I came from TFC, where grenades allowed all classes to be able to take down sentries, and scout (and medic)'s nailgun (100% accurate) allowed them to particularly be a threat along with the standard power classes. SG's also seemed to have less health. It helped prevent turtlefests greatly.
When I came to TF2 I was struck immediately by how prone CTF was to turtling & they've never seemed to come up with a solution.
I ran a server that was fairly popular from 2012-2013 and I ended up making a bold decision to limit engies to 1 (yes, 1) on CTF, despite it being my 2nd most played class. There were grumblings every now and then but everyone seemed to end up agreeing it played a lot better. People would actually have to actively defend, instead of leaving 2 afk engies to encompass a 97% effective defense by sitting idling by their Level 3's.
There are very good points to be made for both sides I think, i think both CTF and other modes all have their own ways to uniquely teach new players at a different pace. some of the newer CTF maps for example can be very good teachers since they're kind of a best of both worlds but other maps like 2Fort while it can still be very enjoyable as a chill map to play on, doesn't really teach new players much about how to objectively play each class. I do for sure agree though that other modes leave new players to be stomped much easier, thank you for the comment!
2:45 good to remind every new player: the needle doesn't point to the flag spawn point but the flag current location. If someone is carrying it you can determine where they are by just looking at it.
A hud feature that I did not mention, I appreciate you pointing that out!
In my opinion, there should be two types of CTF. CTF classic as how it currently is, and an improved CTF mode with many of the same maps. This way people can still mess around on 2fort, but also have proper matches.
Just add a new game mode with CTF maps without them being CTF, just an endless DM match
Agreed! CTF is such a unique experience where you can just mess around and try out new load outs without having the pressure of having to defend the objective but can still if you want when you find the right map. So I think it would be great to have the option to play competitively by having the new gameplay mode and the old maps but also have the option to play passively or just be and friendly.
I agree! I think CTF is still such a fun mode to play on at times however the way it works now doesn't really fit well as a core gamemode. two types of it however could be a good step in the right direction!
I was worried that an *actual* core game mode was badly flawed.
Good things CtF isn’t real.
Between CTF and Pass Time, which is worse?
12:45 "... and we know that because Sniper is a playable class"
I aggree. Sniper is a balancing nightmare but even with a god tier sniper on the enemy team you can still have a great time... in the spawn room.
Was gonna comment about how the directionless nature of CTF leads to the fun of TF2, then you led into that exactly with your conclusion. Cheers! :D
Glad you agree, thank you for the comment!
I think a prime change that CTF could benefit from is "counter-capping" your own intel to hasten the timer and return it to base faster. Makes for last second saves deep in enemy territory less brutal overall.
While I do see people using something like that to troll, That could be a really good changed if it was balanced well. Thank you for the comment!
Applejack with 100 players is peak ctf experience
Agreed!
Don't mess with ctf_2fort players we don't play our own game mode.
Haarp is so much fun compared to what I thought it would be! I love being on BLU team, nabbing the briefcase and capturing as fast as I can via rocket jumping! The only things that I don't like about it is how some people don't understand the objective and where to go, and how if you're on RED team, you stand next to no chance of winning.
Really fun map, very unique concept, wish we could have a server dedicated to Haarp alone (for both Americans and Australians), ten out of ten, would 100% recommend!
(Small nitpick, it's actually not unique, it's literally how A/D worked in TFC, lol. If you want, just look for a Dustbowl server in TFC or custom maps like avanti if by some miracle you can find one).
But yes, I agree, it's nice to see it come back to TF2. I like that one talented player can still sway the match if Red is pubstomping.
I disagree it's impossible to win as Red, I've done it many times, and in fact again in TFC we didn't even have that HUD element to point to the intel, just had to rely on good old fashioned communication, haha.
But yeah, I try to reiterate how crucial the HUD arrow is when I join HAARP games and explain the mode if someone asks. Good engineers are also key.
Btw I said this in another comment but not sure if people realize HAARP has existed for over 15 years as a community map in TF2.
If you couldn't tell yes I am old, lol.
HAARP was a map that I'd been following for quite a while and it was really cool to finally see it officially part of the game. while the map itself does use old balancing methods which makes it really easy to spam on the gamemode it features is super fun and I would love to see other older A/D CTF maps added. thank you though for the comment!
Dude your channel is a diamond in the rough. The editing looks fantastic for a channel with less than 10k subs and best of all you are a TF2 player with a good mic
Note: haarp is not really a new concept as thats how a/d worked in team fortress classic
It's also not CTF. I don't know why this guy thinks it's a good comparison, that's like comparing Dustbowl to Granary.
I was more referring to it being a new concept specifically for TF2's official modes, it is true classic attack/defend and the attack/defend ctf mode have been around for a while which is why its nice to finally see it officially being used!
Personally I find the classic CTF maps to be a lot more fun on community servers where they've removed the capture limit and it's just endless casual deathmatch lobby where you basically can do whatever you want within them. And it allows for things like randomiser or x10 mode to make things interesting. These maps become infinitely more fun when the actual objective gets removed lol
But CTF is also one of my favourite modes in any shooter so to see Applejack, and especially Haarp where it eliminates a majority of the core problems plaguing this mode from being played more competitively is so great see. Personally I do hope to see future CTF maps take on Haarps model more because that really is clever use of utilising the attack/defend model. Seriously, fantastic job on the map creators.
I agree, the classic maps are always a fun thing to return back to occasionally but adding more balanced CTF maps would be a huge benefit to the mode. Thank you for the comment!
I think all I’d change about CTF is adding a 45 minute round timer.
I read “45 minute” as “45 second”
I always thought the cap point should be at mid so there's an actual fight over the intelligence instead of what usually happens which is either the enemy team having to camp it for an entire minute or making it home free to their base and just goofing off to stall round time. The best thing for it is to become king of the hill with extra steps that change the dynamics of combat, like how payload is just attack/defend but you have to carry the objective with you.
I'd like to see a map that uses this concept might actually work out as another pretty good CTF alternative!
I think gamemodes that encourage you to not take things too seriously and goof around are good; and, while they might not offer the most well rounded experience for new players, they do get at the core vibe of the game better than most other gamemodes can.
I agree, this is very similar to what I think about CTF. I don't think its a very good gamemode balance-wise but to show the silliness of the game and fun parts of the game, CTF does that really well!
little tip for people if the enemy team on 2fort is building up in your sewers and your team cannot clear it out then try cap since most likely there defense team and engies are all focused in the sewers. you capping will cause some of the team to flee back to base to defend making it easier to destroy the engie nests. also if you find a engie nest in the sewers early and destroy know that the engie WILL TRY TO REBUILD AND WILL COMEBACK 2fort engies are stuborn bastards so just bully them untill they stop coming into the sewers.
A good addition to the 2Fort strategy book
I’m still coping for a source2 release of Team Fortress 3 😭😭😭
If it happens I want it to be called TF2:2
(Also don't delete TF2 just make it a new game with shared inventory the CS thing is not good)
Haarp may work better because it's not really CTF, but an escort gamemode which lead to the birth of the payload mode. Another mode that actually works is the Crasher and Carrier that improve the escort format by buffing the carrier into a Giant, a human controlled payload cart. People have incentive to congregate around the carrier and not scatter around the map.
Haarp has a huge issues: points only need one capture and the carrier only needs to touch the capture area to win. It also cannot have tall ceilings for rocket jumping because you can just fly over the red team with the intel. Stage C, point 1 you only need to rocket jump over the glass between intel and the capture zone which is easy to do in under 5 seconds. Crasher and Carrier these problems are solved with capture times and giants being not able to rocket jump... except as a quick-fix medic?
If a middle ground was ever placed between Haarp and maps like Crasher it would be the best version of a somewhat CTF mode. I definitely should have brought up Crasher and Carrier those are really good points, thank you for the comment!
I have always wondered why blu is the team to push the cart and not red, red is the demolitions company and blu is the construction company after all
I actually have no idea, maybe they liked how the cart looked in blue!
Blu: We sabotage RED facility so we can rebuild it for them.
Red: We defend an old facility so we don't have to pay BLU.
I agree, it makes no sense.
I like CTF because I like being able to do whatever I want.
0:41 You are an Engineer main.
an "evil haarp" or one sided ctf map where youre trying to bring the enemys intel to your base sounds like a fun idea
I agree that could be a fun concept!
The quality on these videos has clearly improved! Nice video.
Thank you!
This is how all games are, it's a attack ans defend mode but both teams are attacking and defending so it let's you choose what ever class you want to play and learn. I've seen more alt forms of tacts in CTF then any other gamemode. It's the perfect mode to just have fun
I completely agree, Capture the Flag is very important to TF2 because its the best mode to play on when you want to simply just do whatever you want. While I do think it's a lot more far off as being a good representative of TF2's other core gamemodes, I still agree with my conclusion that CTF could be fine how it is as its a good display to TF2's true silliness. Thank you for the comment!
My friend played a casual ctf map for 4 hours straight
Thats quite the 2Fort commitment
i just prefer ctf over dustbowl crit pipe spam or sunshine filled with comp tryhards.
CTF can be really fun if both teams are genuinely trying to win
I agree! That's why the most fun I had were on maps like Applejack and Haarp
Haarp is such a nice map, i've almost forgot how it feels when the entire team coordinate itself towards one objective. and it's layout is quite unique for that too
I love that map so much, unfortunatly many people dont like it because they dont understand it... :(
@@dihydrogenmonoxid1337 btw how can i play the map? is it like seasonal (like Halloween maps) or isn't in the core gamemodes?
@@nonameneeded9664They moved it into the A/D map pool recently.
@@SnackPatrol tf that means? I am new to tf2
@@nonameneeded9664they moved it to the attack defense section
I think a good way to fix ctf is to make the intel cap infinite and add a round timer of like 5 minutes and whoever caps the intel the most wins, this would encourage more aggressive play and make turtling engineers much less powerful. Another thing they can do is go back to older maps like 2fort and turbine and fix a lot of the issues that cause the maps to stalemate so much, kinda like what they did with steel.
I think this would make a pretty fun alternative version of CTF!
@@androtti1008 That could be the one in casual, 24/7 2fort servers can keep classic ctf.
CTF is supposed to be kinda aimless.
You have the objectives stated, and there is no pressure to do it. Other than the rest of your team encouraging you to go for objective.
I have taught so many new players how to play the game in CTF. Teaching engies how to be mindful of sentry placement and how to use dispensers or teles effectively.
Teaching pyros some airblast and a how to spot opportunities to go do the funny pyro thing without dying as much.
Teaching medics how to heal and understand how they make an impact. And how to use their teammates and the terrain for cover.
Even giving advice to snipers on different ways to think about sniping.
Its a crapfest if you look at it through the eyes of a medium to high skill player. Because it is the training ground for new people. And its also the place you go to just relax. And on top of all of that, its one of the best places to find odd people doing odd things for fun.
CTF is perfect, but not for you. Because it was made for everything other than the objective. Not intentionally by the devs, though in sure very intentionally like with 2fort, but the community also made this a reality. And players go right where they are expected to, wherever they feel the get their joy.
I'll quickly note. I don't mean any negativity in this at all. It's just a genuine thing. There is so much stuff you can do in tf2. And not every part is made for you, the one reading comments, but there are parts of it for everyone. Enjoy your part to the fullest gamers
I agree that CTF is just as important to TF2 as the other modes which is what makes this dilemma in the first place. People absolutely love the silliness of CTF even though its imbalance makes it a gamemode not comparable to the other ones you'll find in the core gamemodes. I do appreciate your comment though and nice to see you teaching the ways of TF2 to new players!
10:43 HAARP didn't invent CTF/AD. That was just how A/D worked in Team Fortress Classic.
Also it's old. HAARP was created in 2009 for a CTF/AD mapping contest.
Yes! HAARP is a map that I've been following for a long time but I was more referring to HAARP and the A/D CTF mode not being new, but instead new to TF2's officially added maps and modes!
0:41 TRUEE , ACTUALLY TRUE
1. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with there being no defined attack or defend objective for a mode to work. CP and PLR both accomplish this perfectly fine, and while they can occasionally stall out or stalemate, the nature of your objective fluctuates with the gamestate and that's perfectly fine.
2. A round timer works specifically for the purpose of making sure that rounds end eventually. The game supports it already, even. But introducing this into official servers will come at the expense of people who actively play CTF as a sort of makeshift TDM. Remember when casual payload used stopwatch rules? People hated having that constraint placed upon them because they just wanted to play the full rounds out. A setting being supported and a good thing doesn't necessarily mean it's desired by the people it impacts. CTF is neglected in any form of organized play anyway, and that'd be the only place that I'd advocate for a timer being part of the format rules (such as the pisspoor competitive matchmaking including turbine for some reason).
3. The reason CTF becomes TDM is because most of the maps are absolute shit for actually playing the objective. Why bash your head endlessly into a swarm of turrets and explosives when you can just play in the neutral space between the two bases and have a modestly good time? Hightower has a similar "problem" by being extremely difficult to get up both rollback zones so players have defaulted to treating it as a faux pas to even attempt to do so.
4. Even if good CTF maps are added to the game, there's a new problem: Flag resets. In older games the flag was easy to return to your base by just touching it but this isn't the case in TF2. It instead has to wait out a painfully long timer.
If the intel is easy enough to get to and move through the map, once it reaches a certain threshold it becomes nigh impossible to actually defend it. The timer is pathetically easy to reset by throwing Bonk scouts and DR Spies at it. This is ultimately an unavoidable problem in a game with on-demand invuln/resists.
Gang Garrison, a TF2 fangame from 2008, addressed this intel timer reset problem by requiring the intel carrier to hold onto the flag for long enough, and only then will it provide a timer reset. So while you could just throw bodies at the flag, you had to make sure that body actually survived long enough to turn around with the flag in tow.
CTF as a mode in TF2 is otherwise fine, aside from capture crits being kind of a piss off measure. Nothing short of good maps will make any mode enjoyable. Special Delivery didn't work not because of the mode design, but because Doomsday is a travesty of a map. People claim that PLR is a stalemate fest by pointing to Hightower and Pipeline but conveniently ignore Banana Bay. There are good CTF maps out there, it's just a lot harder to find them because the overlap between players who want to play CTF for the objective and those who want to play CTF as a killbox are not a common overlap.
Thank you for writing such a detailed and well made comment. While I agree that its fine to leave CTF the way it is but I do still think the mode could definitely benefit from new more balanced maps or other alternative gamemodes like the one on Haarp to stand as a more balanced version of Capture the Flag. The Gang Garrison solution you pointed out actually sounded like a really good fix as well however again I do agree with you changing the mode would definitely cause disagreement for the original players of the gamemode. There are very good points here showing the dilemma side to CTF and I appreciate you taking the time to write this!
Haarp should be the default. But then again, I wish the TF2 playerbase stop picking 2fort or turbine for the meme of it. We get it - “Haha its the bad map”, but 15 minutes in and its not funny anymore.
Well... that's gonna be a lot of players to disagree with you. I used to be annoyed by it but, why fight the funny, just join it or change map no reason to change the vr chat map of tf2
@@Bluestlark It's not funny after spending 35 minutes on it.
Of course it need change. Just simply timer and instant death on timer without losing round progress (just spawn players and turn on instant death without spawn defence) is good enought.
12:41-12:49 you earned my like and suscribtion
Thank you!
it's kind of scary how well edited and put together this video is. You deserve way more subscribers my guy!
appreciate it!
Not sure I agree with the conclusion but this is a banger, great stuff
I love ctf_haarp so much, but i really think its core design is "what if we replace the control points on attack/defend with a briefcase". Needs a few changes tho. Very easy to spawncamp red team on stage 1 and 2 (only one spawn exit) and i think its sometimes way to easy to any% speedrun it.
Haarp definitely does hold some issues to be ironed out but it's nice to see a lot of people agree that despite this they still seem to really enjoy the map. thank you for the comment!
HAARP is what payload is to dual payload
Adding a round timer to ctf is the worst idea ever, it just makes stalling even better.
Stalemates exists
I see where you're coming from and how teams could be inclined to just stall out until the round ends but I could also see how it'd be a really good promotor to the other team to form an attack against their defenses. But I do think a lot of other suggestions people have made like adding more to the gamemode from Haarp and simply adding better more balanced CTF maps rather than trying to fix the actual mode with things like a round timer. I appreciate the comment!
The entire casual mm is a balance nightmare.
Ngl i like the idea of adding a the timer on the ctf maps aswell as lowering the timer for the briefcase respawn, i honestly dont care if people hate the change, the gamemode sucks in general so a change would be nice
Glad to see you agree! I think though there could definitely be some compromises like adding a classic TF2 mode that is the regular no time limit and normal briefcase respawn timer. Thank you for the comment!
Out of curiosity, do you think any of the other ctf maps in the game, or even on the workshop for that matter, meet the same quality standards as applejack? I've heard good things about pelican peak but I've never properly tried it myself. I also remember an old workshop map called Urban Brook that I remember enjoying. I would also recommend a version of turbine called Newbine that fixes most of turbines glaring issues along with some gorgeous looking visuals. Here's hoping for more good ctf maps.
A very good question. for the officially added maps, I think Pelican Peak is also pretty good and is the closest other CTF map comparable to Applejack. Frosty and Sawmill however have great middle areas but their intel rooms are way too easy to defend making them similarly unbalanced. as for community maps I'm not too familiar about community CTF maps. Haarp was the only one I really consistently followed and now its actually part of the game. Well that and the 400 different versions of 2Fort. I will actually look into Urban Brook though and if I do find any really good community suggestions I'll probably add them here!
i mean, its what made tf2 even more popular during the bot crisis
also, 2fort
I play exclusively 2fort because that is how I like to play the game. That’s why we have different game modes
ctf is the tutorial of tf2. if anything its actually preferred if a newbie starts with ctf rather than land on any other mode
should get more views
Personally I like messing around on 2fort. It's just really fun for me
Just like HAARP, there's another "Deliver The Flag" map, that being Crasher, how does that one fit into the investigation?
I think Crasher while it wasn't looked at since its a halloween-only map, I think thats another example of a pretty good hybrid CTF experience. While I don't think there should be a mode added that lets TF2 players be giant and have guaranteed crits, If there was a middle ground between Haarp and the idea of Crasher, I think that could potentially make the best possible balance for an alternative CTF mode. Thank you for the comment!
@@androtti1008 That would be the map "Carrier". Speaking of, what about that one compared to HAARP?
0:41 You made a little mistake here. All sniper rifles are the actual issue.
I'd say piss gun and classic is fair and balanced. Fuck the rest of them though.
No, sticky is a problem. Every good pubstomping party stack WILL have at least 1 competent demo that wipes half the enemy team with it.
Every match i've been in is basically influenced by 3 classes: Medic, Sniper & Demo. No demo --> lose to enemy sentry nest.
Demo is so strong that they limit it to 1 in comp to avoid whole match becomes sticky projectile spam. He's also the only one that can uber push wrangler + pybro airblast + mittens defense cause those EIGHT projectiles deals AOE explosive damage (can damage the sentry AND the pyro/mitten heavy), whereas someone like ubered-heavy is a single-target class.
TLDR; He's VERY meta-influential. And most games that I lost, it's because we have no demo.
@@John-jc5hw Scout.
@@fadedgames1 sentry.
@@John-jc5hw Engineer does not exist in competitive.
Also, for stickies, pyro and the short circuit exist.
Uncle Dane ctf video ahh video.
“Capture the Flag is the worst game mode of TF2”
*DUN DUN DUN, DU-NU!”
to be honest ctf is the death match game mode for tf2 and i kinda want it to stay that way. like make the cap limit unlimted, remove it from the core game modes so new players actually start learning how to play. and replace it with gamemodes like haarp (give it a new name :3)
I fully agree on this! Thank you for the comment!
ctf is great for completing contract weapons tbh
4:57 I think that pyro was trying to get an achievement, ignite 5 players capturing the intelligence.
Historical point about TF2: when the game launched, there was an expectation that there would be a deathmatch mode like a lot of other shooters of the time, but there wasn't. This led to players treating CTF as a deathmatch mode.
Great vid :)
Really good point that could have actually been what they were doing, but it's TF2 so who really knows. Thank you though for the comment!
That seal map is more balanced than all ctf maps good parts
8:52 You are COMPLEATLY and UTTERLY WRONG about first 3 points. I am "ctf exclusive" player, and first two are just plain and simple its core charm and greatness, with third just being the opposite. My first game was on 2fort, and if it wasnt, i bet my life i would not be playing the game now. 4-th one is actually true. 2fort is just bullshit (and i played like 700h on it), turbine is an actual bullshit, well is pretty bad. And this was HALF of maps before this summer.
Competitive? YUCK!
"Just released"
Shout out Gordon freemon
The ending to this video is *gold* 💛 Pretty much every comment I was going to up make up to that point was marvelously addressed out of the blue. CTF could benefit from the creation of a more competitive oriented format, but as it stands it is perfect for casual, silly-maximising gameplay. It is a playable Monty Python skit, and shouldn't be "corrected" in any sense of the word.
Haarp isn't really.. ctf... It's just a/d with extra steps...
Also, what about passtime?
Nobody plays passtime
I agree which is why its more like a hybrid-mode, It works because its attack/defend using some CTF components and why I don't think they should replace CTF if they ever went the route of fully implementing Haarp and other A/D CTF maps as its actual own gamemode. Pass Time can be fun but I think the way that it works is also every far from the idea behind each of the core modes. I appreciate the comment!
The problem with CTF is the playerbase, not the gamemode. Players don't want to actually put effort into the game because if you take the game even slightly seriously you've committed a heinous sin in the eyes of the modern TF2 community.
Well, that and the removal of map timers, and the introduction of casual (which killed quickplay and community servers). CTF was much better when quickplay still existed.
the idea of players enforcing CTF to be a deathmatch only mode is a huge part as well to why CTF is unbalanced I agree! I do think the points you made though about the mode becoming more unbalanced from things like map timers being removed did contribute though to why players have made this the way it should be played. Thank you for the comment!
If any existing gamemode had a chance of trying to do "CTF but better," I absolutely feel as if Robot Destruction was a more modern (as of 2014) take on the CTF formula.
Player's on both teams have objectives within their base to defend, that aren't just the flag - objectives that involves players needing to destroy the robots in the enemy teams base, and pick up the item drops that act as both teams score. Once the first tier of robots are destroyed, defenders are forced to move backwards as their second tier of robots are now vulnerable, and the attackers then have to push deeper into the enemy teams base to continue increasing their teams score.
The interesting part of the gamemode to me was always the fact that even if the enemy team were in the lead, you could disrupt their win-streak by sneaking into their base to steal most if not all their points for your team; it gave the losing team a way to still win. Even if either team managed to reach 300 points, a 45 second timer would activate, giving both teams one last push or defense for all the points they currently hold.
It does genuinely make me sad that the TF team abandoned the gamemode shortly later into the year, as it's the only gamemode still in it's "Beta stage". You can't queue for the gamemode either, as the only way you can play it today is through community servers, and even then, I only ever managed to find just one server hosting it, only to be switched to a different map after 6 whole full rounds.
If you think about it.. CTF and it's 1st map 2fort (while a recreation of a classic map) is infact.... the core of TF2 since it's inception.
Flawed but hilarious.
Silly but why not?
Community and strength.
It's not the competitive map anyone wants, but.. it's the map people go to to do fun things. In the beginning it was used to learn the game.. now? it's used to be a fun loving mode/map that brings out the shine of TF2's community.
All the meme's? 2fort. All the sillies? 2fort. Even the map it self is ridiclous with both bases being divided by a single bridge. The premise alone just shouts: "Yea... we ain't serious"
No matter what you look at it from.. it is... a "CORE MODE" just not in the sense of playing the game as competitively intended, but community intended.
A beautifully written expression of why CTF is so important to the game even with this dilemma!
1:15 "If i'm in a ßØƳjin gaame"
Payload race has stalemate issue? No? Only in the awfully designed valve maps.
Just play one round of bananabay, no stalemates
The point that I made was a more all-rounded look at the mode, yes there are some less stalemating maps but theres also as you said the other Valve maps that are always stalemated. I appreciate the comment though!
I treat CTF as a team deathmatch kind of thing
I agree, I think as of now that's probably the best way to enjoy CTF's inbalance and man is it fun!
I really dont think noobs are effected by CTF, if they like it (which they probably will) then everythinfs fine, its a good trainign course for noobs and casuals alike. If they dont like CTF bit do infact wanna stick with tf2, then theyll just play another game mode
I think they only really are affected if they believe that CTF is the same experience that they'll find in the rest of TF2, but I agree that really any of the modes can still teach them things about the game!
I honestly never liked Capture the Flag. Even if I play casually, I want a match with a consistent goal. If there were round timers on Capture the Flag, it would be a lot more engaging. Especially if the style would be that with every capture, the round timer doesn't get added time. It keeps counting down and the team with the most Intels captured is the winning team.
I agree CTF can be fun for those who just want to chill doing whatever they want but not to those who want a more balanced experience. Thank you for the comment!
I'd keep ctf as is. new ayers with functioning braincells should be able to discern between how the game is actually played and ctf. it's a mode, in the game, that exists. heck even comp players barely ever play it (if ever at all lol). it's there, it's goofy, it's tf2 in it's most purest form (insanity)
im sorry but there appears to be an auditory glitch when i try to play this video, it appears the actual voiceover has been replaced with Baby Crying - Stock Sound Effects Free on a repeated loop
Id argue the opposite. CTF is the BEST gamemode tf2 has to offer. it's truly pure tf2 cinema. 3 things: How welcoming it is for newbies, how every style of play can be enjoyed, and how there's no time limit. The flaws are there on purpose. It was, by design, to make the game become a stalemate and in the process you can enjoy how you like and stay how much time you want. By making changes into ctf that would make it more of tryhard sort of way you would ruin the very premise of the gamemode.
Well, lack of timer is one of reasons many people go to play there, 2fort especially, in most gamemodes you cant really do much of stuff you can get away on 2fort, yes new players may be confused all gamemodes are played differently but well, that is kinda point of different gamemodes, they find out how payload is played once they try out that, only thing I would change could be timer on intel be faster the closer it is to capture zone, so if ut would be barely pulled out of its spawn, it could be minute but if someone would stop it 1 meter from others team capture zone, it could be mich shorter, making it easier to hold it up so close at enemy base, giving you actually decent chance, absolutely remove that crap with crits on spawning, usually it being captured means losing team was beaten and they give winning team even crits to that, often leading to instant second capture and then likely to third then, on turbine it is most noticeable when enemies are at your spawn, making it then literally impossible to do anything at all, with unending matches, which yes, can be pain in ass, maybe adding voting option to end it, this is literally issue only when making contracts on those maps for sure or for people for some reason, that I cant comprehand, care about 'XP' thing in casual
When I go play TF2 just to play, I go CtF, I dont wan to load game twenty times per hour I spend on playing, I want to just run around, shoot stuff, sometimes practice with weapons or classes I am not as much familiar with, and sure, it can be used for farming strange counters and whatever but it is least reason for me to play those specifically
I play 2fort as a long deathmatch mode
loved the video! ctf serves literally just as a showcase of tf2's hilarious community 😁 as a gamemode its a bit wank lol
Thank you!
LOVELY VIDEO!
9:56 if the CTF community doesn't want it fixed, why fix it? so new people can come and play it? why?
That is where the idea of the CTF dilemma comes from. there is one side of players who agree that CTF is a very unbalanced mode and would want to see it fixed in some way so that it better fits as a core gamemode and others who like it for its unbalance since its something they can play on and enjoy without having to actually try or do any objectives. Thank you for the comment though!
@@androtti1008 good point, and i guess there really isnt an answer to fit all
2fort will still always be great
From friendly perspective ? Yes.
From playing the game to win like the original developer intended or as if it's every other gamemodes's gameplay ?
The game is now horrible Trench Warfare simulator instead silly War themed Hat simulator.
Doublcross and Apple jack are better.
"and we know that because sniper is a playable class" sniper? the class that isnt in the top 5 classes out of 9 total?
My guy PLEASE get popular also if you want to be a little more entertaining then informative it would be good to have more funny micro skits like the one at 4:50
I do definitely want to work more into incorporating visual skits into my video so I appreciate you assuring that with this comment. Thank you!
@@androtti1008what if you made a video on how good each mercenary would be in a war!
@@oliverensley-uv4xv Perhaps I'll put that in my list of ideas!
SUMMER 2024!!!
11:52 has anyone ever played competitive tho?
I don't play competitive much myself but a good amount of TF2's community does play both official and unofficial competitive or at the very least follows it in some way! Not nearly as much though as people who play the game for fun like myself.
Ohi rizz gyatt sigma
m yes very wonderful video.,.,...,, why aren't you popular yet
Thank you!
ctf is so ass fr
ass and silly
The sticky bomb launcher is so annoying
Which is why I hate demoman, spamming bombs and stickies in the general direction while your opponent can’t do anything
Tf am i supposed to do,not use it? If it's in the game, it's supposed to be used
@@Cherno_Ladyou can just,walk up to him, or just, not be in the demomans effective range,or just, kill him first, what class do you play?
Too bad.
May I have a suggestion? Just get near him
Bullshit of a video….I literally saw some heavies just conga dancing and making sandwich throws because this game mode is chill as a colder cucumber in the fridge, no pun intended. I just don’t know why people will hate chilling out rather than just hyperactive objectives, it literally raised egoism and it basically lets people go insane and just eagerly to jump off the roof rather than being shit talk on. Those servers with this game mode had a reason to exist. They are not relaxation spot, there are therapists spots as well. If you hurt a person, what do you get from it. What if you achieve a win, what do get from it as well. There is a reason why people don’t like wins in this game mode and includes killing. Capture the intelligence is basically a sanctuary for both sides to showcase what good or bad sides people are. Heck, they don’t even listen to the administrators so what’s the point. Friendlies will always exist and that is fact. Tryhards…..oof they will learn the hard way😅
I don't dislike or think CTF is bad for TF2 at all. I mentioned in my conclusion that the main goal was to explore what makes CTF less balanced as an actual gamemode but stated that even with the imbalanced being able to join a mode where everyone is just chilling and doing whatever strategy they want is actually really good for TF2 which is where the dilemma of CTF comes from. I appreciate your comment though!
ehhrm skill issue. CTF is for ppl that just wanna fight. go play payload if you wanna take this game seriously
this IS a joke by the way
2nd comment lol
who cares lmao
3:45 apparently you've never been on the end of a 3 century nest in the sewer crossroads lol
KOTH_Soyjun