20 min in Aaron realized he is getting schooled and cannot compete with the intellectual superiority of Travis so he knows the only way this video will be successful is by trying to depict Travis as an “arrogant” and rude person and he is so patient and Christlike. Aaron knows Travis entirely dismantled his theology and the way he approaches Mormons.
Aaron, I’m LDS and in some ways share your perspective. It’s true that your beliefs of the church were one time accurate but I can tell you from the inside, members don’t believe the 1980’s Mormonism you know. Every aspect of the faith has transitioned in one way or another. It is mind boggling but what it is.
Travis didn’t say anything other than anything that has been taught and understood by members for the last 200 years is wrong and he understands why. Would’ve been great for all those members “following the prophet” to know their prophet was wrong about things as critical as grace and the Godhood. “Those are their opinions” ???? Not when they’re speaking from the pulpit as a prophet seer and revelator. Travis, knows this and yall know this.
Aaron didn’t present Travis as anything. Travis is arrogant and rude on his own. By your fruits ye shall know them, right? Or does it not apply when it makes you look bad?
I appreciated this conversation. Aaron was very patient. I also appreciated Travis and how he articulated his view. I really wished though he would of let Aaron finish his thoughts. Big takeaway was the example of Aaron and how patient and kind we all need to be and show respect and listen to one another. Thanks
@@leviporter480 Judgement refers to determining the righteousness of someone with condemnation. I evaluated his knowledge of LDS doctrine. To me Travis seems to need to have an answer for everything, and I heard him say things that were out of sync with current and historic LDS doctrine. An example would be his statements about Adam/God.
So you have to be smart to be right about God ? Seems like a contradiction. Plus using big words doesn’t make you smart . Realizing your position has flaws and addressing them makes someone smart.
@@mdcarson please tell me that was sarcasm. It took the kid 25 minutes to grasp the concept of representing his church. His number 1 argument, that he used probably 20 times, was "thats your interpretation". He tried to use John 17, a passage that outright refutes Josephs Myth, to prove his claims. The kid clearly is not educated in basic theology, Christian belief, LDS history, sayings and writings of their so-called prophets, nor the ability to shutup and listen for more than 12 seconds. I wouldnt be surprised if @mdcarson is the poor fool himself!
The Mormon guy is clearly in error. The Bible is the best anti Mormon literature ever. Mormons are blasphemy in the highest degree……as a Jewish man I can say that no other cult has harmed the Jewish people like this cult. Hitler wasn’t as blasphemous to the Jewish people as Mormons are. Hell bound people
@@upstandersupernova I don’t hate them, I just hate what they have done to our savior, they strip him of his deity, they steal his priesthood that belongs to him and him alone , they make him out to be a psychopath in the Book of Mormon.
@@jamesrexsannatracy8318 I've never heard anyone say that before. People usually just say they have the wrong Jesus. I can't imagine how anyone would make Jesus look like a psychopath. Paul maybe, but not Jesus. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who believes Paul was a murdering, schizophrenic psychopath. I'm mean he was. Well, before he fell off the horse he was a murdering psychopath, but wasn't after he fell off the horse; he was just schizophrenic after that. I'm just kidding. I love the story about Paul becoming an apostle.
Bravo Travis. The guardrails Protestants have placed around their beliefs is incredible. It’s the one thing I love about LDS theology, we love truth. The more truth we can get the better. Travis’s deep understanding of the historical nature of the text and the plain approach brings so much to light. Thank you!!
Wow this is too good. I love the way Aaron continually circles back on his argument, despite it being destroyed time and time again by Travis. Well done Travis!
I love how Travis is holding Aaron accountable to his words. I love Aaron’s kindness. A Mormon that goes on the offensive… I don’t have any problem with it.
@@beckywalton5200 I agree with this: Travis does *not* represent the LDS people well. Put another way: Travis is not representative of the typical Latter-day Saint we meet on the street or have relationships with in Utah. Mormons are characteristically kind and reasonable in their conversational demeanor.
@@AaronShafovaloff1 can you explain why you didn’t show the first 30 or so minutes and last 30 or so minutes of this “debate”? I’m guessing because it showed Travis getting bombed with questions so fast he couldn’t answer them all and by at least three people at one time. It would explain his lack of patience and irritable tone the remainder of the video where you then want to play like you had a soft, slow non-accusatory tone the entire video. You Sir are dishonest by editing in that way. Shame on you.
@@beckywalton5200yes you are right. Cutting an obscenely long 3 hour video into a, still extremely long (for youtube) 2 hours without a doubt proves malicious intent. That was an astute observation Becky. Mormonism is true. Christians are liars. Good job Becky. You're amazing Becky.
@@AaronShafovaloff1 Why should anyone care about what the "typical Latter-day Saint" believes? Most typical Latter-day Saints haven't deeply analyzed their faith like you or Travis have.
Travis laid out a great explanation of LDS theology and how dishonest the gotcha questions are that are used in Apologia's street interviews. His style may turn some people off, but that doesn't negate that he theologically dismantled every false premise, doctrine, and assumption one by one. Aaron was patient and kind, but he still refused to have an honest discussion when Travis pointed to falsities about Mormon theology that he had been spreading. That's the problem with these type of discussions - the evangelical street preacher comes in with the premise that everything he believes is correct and what he "thinks" he knows about LDS theology is correct. When presented with an LDS apologist with a deep knowledge, evangelical street preachers never listen and continue to use the same tired mormon tropes that have been debunked many times before. LDS theology is basically Christianity-explained. I don't understand why evangelical pastors purposefully distort LDS theology and attack latter-day saints. Its just sad.
@@Aaron-SLCno Aaron has no idea what actually is lds doctrine. All these apologia guys are like 40 years behind. It’s actually embarrassing. The Mormons that leave don’t leave from evangelicals. Yall have no idea why people leave.
I would agree however, Travis’ style doesn’t just turn some people off….its clearly intellectual pride on display. Arrogance with the denial that he could even communicate in a different way is a lie. It’s a Choice. He feels empowered by his dominance and the spirit flees immediately. It cannot attend in such a conversation which leaves Travis unto himself. People will not be taught or converted by Aaron or Travis without the Holy Ghost. Furthermore we may be sick and tired of getting misrepresented and out right lied about so we gravitate toward someone like Travis further bolstering him to continue, but this is not the way. We are not encouraged ever to communicate in defending our faith and understanding of the Savior in such a crass way. It’s reprehensible and does us no favors in the sight of God.
@@bambie1830 You wrote, "no Aaron has no idea what actually is lds doctrine." Can you specify where I have shown a misunderstanding? One way I try to faithfully depict LDS teaching is to bring together its historic, institutional, canonical, and common teachings and beliefs - robustly considered. The "big picture" view.
@AaronShafovaloff1 you're a coward and a joke. You know nothing about lds theology. This video proves that all you do is strawman arguments, nothing more. Have you ever once asked a member what we believe instead of assuming in your arrogance?
The title is hilarious. Travis is arrogant because he knows his stuff and doesn't get steam rolled like your usual unsuspecting victims. For most of my life we have really taken the approach of turn the other cheek and build on common beliefs. And we go on missions to find the people that are ready to hear the truth. But it feels good to take the gloves off and not be passive sometimes. Apologia is a church setup to get money, not bring people closer to Christ, change my mind.
You got walked like a dog buddy. It’s not too late to exercise humility and come unto Christ and His restored gospel. Accepting the truths of God is liberating.
Irrespective of how we, the viewers may feel about this encounter - I think it's appropriate as Christians to encourage one another to be regularly praying for Travis. 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves to be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even the tax collectors, do they not do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Even the Gentiles, do they not do the same? - Mt 5:43-47
@MormonMyths1830 Why didn’t you include the final completing thought to this scriptural theme of unconditional love with Jesus’ command to his followers: 5:48…. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
@WhatdoesthatReallymean-ps1kn my perfection is in Christ Jesus. Not only did he atone for my sins but his righteousness is inputed to those that believe on his name.
@WhatdoesthatReallymean-ps1kn by perfect- we mean complete and/or mature and whole- perfect. Not in appearance or puffing up. Again, we don't have to speak greek or hebrew we have many translations that actually help us to understand the origin and meaning. Get a Strongs Concordance or use Google for good.
Marc, at best you can say that no one was “owned”. At worst, Travis nullified every argument he had in any belief by admitting to his belief that all scripture is fallible. He presumed to be smarter than everyone around him by rejecting infallibility.
This was pure reactionary rhetoric on Travis’s part. I think he shot himself in the foot by telling Aaron, “You think this conservation is going to be productive?” after Aaron kindly suggested to tone it down a bit. Half the time he never even let him finish a sentence. You can win the argument by never running out of things to say but lose the person completely.
LDS members are becoming better defending the true faith and this is upsetting the Creedist Christians that they have to start to defend their Trinity with scattered verses throughout the Bible and cannot find one verse or one author of the bible explaining it in simple terms. As the trinity is so important to salvation, they cannot seem to defend it. Time to start asking them questions about the trinity, sola scriptura, the creeds, the end of public revelation, and more.
@@nickallen2288 It's shocking that, if somebody thinks the words of Jesus in the Bible are not authentic, that person would waste any time in church at all. What a sad and miserable existence!
Really good example of difficult conversations you may run into while evangelizing! Really enjoyed this even though it was frustrating at parts (as I'm sure it was for Aaron!).
Travis expertly dismantled Aaron's misunderstanding of the false doctrineof sola scriptura, highlighting its inconsistencies, and exposed Aaron's lack of knowledge about LDS theology, leaving him thoroughly embarrassed in the discussion and posts this video anyway for all to see the smackdown.
Lmao the comments are hilarious. Travis consistently restructures the gotcha comments to an applicable lens of LDS theology and the comments think he’s some kind of “rude” person 💀💀 LDS members don’t owe you anything.
Travis posted the full discussion on his youtube channel, and it includes another 30 minutes before and after this clip. I think watching that gives you a more full context.
@@Misa_Susaki By all means, listen to it all. It remains clear: Travis has to resort to an insolent filibuster instead of patient unpacking of arguments.
@@AaronShafovaloff1 Is that why you had to keep circling back to the same falsehood he had already refuted? LOL. Or was that part of the hour that you edited out? You are such a snowflake.
He’s pointing out the fallacy that many protestants make when they claim that dem ‘Mormons’ are just relying on ‘feelings’ of a deceitful heart, when the protestant must, by necessity, fall back to similar claims when pressed on why they believe the Bible.
Travis tries to control the conversation by asking annoying and insulting questions. He should simply state his position and not bully other people. Sad. Travis' complaint about Aaron's evangelizing the LDS is hypocritical coming from a seriously missionary church that does exactly the same thing. Come on Travis.
Nah, Aaron tries to control the conversation by asking annoying and insulting questions and editing the videos to make the Latter-Day Saint look as bad as possible. He should simply state his position and not bully other people. Sad. Aaron's complaint about Travis' arrogance is hypocritical coming from a seriously GOTCHA church that does worse. Come on Aaron, stop being a snowflake.
Really appreciate how the brother slowed down the conversation. Thank you for modeling how to do this. I take notes and go out when I can. Many Mormons at my school. May the Lord bless you and continue to grow Apologia ministries.
@@LazarusSchell I have studied Mormonism for more than 2000 hours on my own. It’s false , blasphemous and untrue. It’s so satanic that it’s absolutely disgusting……don’t tell me to understand what I already understand…I’m a very educated person. Especially when it comes to false religious cults
You know, part of the problem with this ministry in particular is the bringing up old stereotypes about members. We arent all the same like yall think.
Hey aren’t you the guy (Elliks Green) who encouraged your fellow Mormons to spam Apologia Utah with fake google reviews? Seems like you’re cut from the same cloth as Travis to me
I am so sorry you perceive this interview that way… this is the epitome of pride, arrogance and projection in defense of false doctrines and false prophets.
Mormon literally said nothing. I wouldn't even consider him a Mormon as he said multiple times he doesn't even agree with them. Saying you don't agree woth something or using your personal beliefs to define your answer and religion is not an argument it's hubris at best.
If you know where to look, you can find the 3 hour version that includes all the little goodies that Aaron cut out because it made him look too bad. Travis' "I've been patiently enduring evil for 3 hours" was hilarious to me.
How could God have ever sinned? He sent His Son into this world as a living sacrifice for our sins and His Son replaced the unblemished sacrifices. If the Son was unblemished how could the Father have been blemished?
@@antimormon-px1eqif sinful Mormons can become a “god” it proves the point that you believe in a “god” that was once as you are. Why can’t Mormons just state what Mormonism teaches and what they believe? Travis dodged every question. I was a lost Mormon believing these absurd teachings but Jesus Christ saved me from the devils snare.
@@jaredwilliams1157 They don't teach that man can become God.... Nor do they believe that God was once like we are now. That's a gross misinterpretation. Which is certainly expected out of the ignorant......
was that a statement? or what? what is your point? if you wont understand actually go to somebody more educated than men im not gonna sit here and lie you cant just make claims and not know the actual facts its absurd and funny when a critic or a anti mormon comes to claim and interpret their own meanings go read the whole king follet discourse yourself go watch robert boylan a lds apologist, go watch blake ostler go actually read his book go pray about it multiple times and see the difference between satan and god, actually go be relevant instead of being irrelevant like you are using a straw man attack if you didint know! your using overused claims and not actually, to change your terms go study what the 15 fallacies are actually go read a book or go find a proper validated source!!!
Travis won the debate but they can claim they were humbly intellectually obliterated. Of claiming you were more humble while denouncing a world religion that does more and gives more charity seems odd.
It doesn't. The $100,000,000,000 it has fraudulently saved through multiple fake corporations like ensign peak and spending 1 B, of that on a mall means they've spent more money on a mall than ever on charity as an organization. I sincerely hope travis becomes willing to be open to stating his beliefs and views. Instead, he currently is like the child on the playground in hide and seek saying "you didn't actually find me, this isn't my real hiding spot".
Wait a minute. Why didn't it include the entire interview? Somebody emailed me the whole interview. Why did you guys cut off the last twenty or thirty minutes?
It feels like you are purposely lying to try to make the people who posted this look badly. The conversation with Aaron ends where it is cut. Other people, not Aaron, jump in and Travis starts yelling at them. Aaron doesn't talk again and isn't involved.
@@trex5828 Are you sure that's not Aaron continuing to talk to him? It sounds like Aaron. And if that is the case (which, maybe) why didn't they end the video with the end of Aaron and Travis's talk? They just cut it off.
"Christian" Doctrine is so full of contradictions when you study it.... how can you build on such a thing. The LDS guy clearly understands their perspective, and doesn't care for it. Perhaps that's why so many are leaving their faiths?
Alternative Title: Apologia church makes the mistake of interviewing someone who actually knows the doctrine of his church, therefore doesn't go very well, which leads to calling said member "Swine, arrogant, and insolent." If you are going to preach to Mormons that they are going to hell because they dont believe in your man made beliefs about a 2000 year old document, you should be more prepared.
@@AaronShafovaloff1 I wouldn't. Definitely not the first thing I would characterize about him, anyway. I also consider that maybe he felt like he had to be that way in order to debate a calvinist. Being humble, wouldn't be how I would characterize many that debate religion. I would like to see how he is when he's not debating religion. I would like to also say that being calm, cool and collected isn't necessarily being humble. ❤
@@AaronShafovaloff1 Hi Aaron. I don't believe Travis was seemingly humble, no. But that isn't the crux of the issue. Jesus would call pharisees who taught the doctrine of man rather than God "children of the devil." He would flip tables while doing it. The point isn't who is being nice in front of a camera, anyone would have an incentive to do that. The point is you are recording conversations trying to destroy the faith of members by acting respectful and caring while talking to them, and then calling them "arrogant and insolent" once you can't win a debate with them. That's why people see through the facade you've created. If you really aren't teaching the doctrine of man rather than God, convince me in front of everyone why we should believe you when you tell us the canon is closed, and that God can no longer speak authoritatively?
25:40 "Any time you put God as the parent or whatever whatever," Travis said, and then claimed that portraying God as a parent is a problem. GOD CALLS HIMSELF A FATHER!
Brooo these apologia guys really did snip out half of the conversation. It's very obvious this is edited to make Travis look dumb. They don't show Travis approaching at all. A person doesn't just shut down and refuse to talk academically like this unless they have felt disrespected. I wouldn't be surprised if Aaron was honestly a jerk before the video started. Beware a pastor who is dishonest with his following...
The Nicene Creed of 325 A.D. explicitly affirms the Father as the "one God" and as the "Almighty," and Jesus Christ as "the Son of God," as "begotten of the essence of the Father." Therefore, Jesus is consubstantial with the Father, which means of the same substance as the Father... very God of very God. 😊😊😊
1:22:50 Aaron articulated beautifully why Lds culturally / generally believes in a divine mother despite no canonicity and Travis says you haven’t articulated why
I have to my knowledge watched every single Apologia video that I can get my hands on and I don’t think I’ve ever seen Aaron before. He did an amazing job. I hope I can find more videos like this. Aaron is very respectful and patient. He obviously knows the gospel very well.
The conversation with Aaron and Travis ends there. Travis starts talking to someone named Andrew and they spend a bunch of time yelling at each other. Aaron is no longer involved.
@@bryanpratt5850 Aaron is being talked over, because his garbage tactics are clear.... The comments and questions that he's making to the LDS guy are canned, considered and studied and prepared to make him look bad. Travis just doesn't let him get away with it. He's either dealt with this dishonesty before, or he truly has the spirit of discernment.
@@bryanpratt5850Aaron keeps making false statements as the foundation of his answers and so instead of listening to a bunch of malarkey built upon a false pretense Travis just stops the argument.
48:48 Travis is refusing to exegete the text. He (Travis)makes assertions without evidence and then accusing Aaron of do the same. It is an apologetic trick. Get into the text and ascertain the meaning. 🤦🏻♂️
Great Question! We are taught not just to rely on what the Leaders of the Church, But to get our own confirmation from God, IE through our own individual prayer and study of scripture.
@@LazarusSchell Travis didn’t say anything other than anything that has been taught and understood by members for the last 200 years is wrong and he understands why. Would’ve been great for all those members “following the prophet” to know their prophet was wrong about things as critical as grace and the Godhood. “Those are their opinions” ???? Not when they’re speaking from the pulpit as a prophet seer and revelator. Travis, knows this and yall know this.
Travis? No he’s not😅 He’s bored with the predictable tactics and set-up questions that these people plan out, with someone to take a video in a way to make Apologia appear in the best light. LDS are used to all of this. All the time. Every day. Travis is graceful enough to have a dialogue and listen to, what he already knows they are going to say. “Apologia” is disingenuous. But of course they will post this to make them look pious and humble. But they make a religion out of tearing down the LDS Christian religion. I would have genuinely wish these people a good day, and continued walking. Travis has more grace than I do. I’m so sick of the same old script, against LDS, all the time.
33:00 where would he get the idea members believe what the prophet said because they’re lazy?! Travis, this is disingenuous and lazy to just throw out the obvious truth because it’s inconvenient.
It's evident that Aaron participated in this conversation out of love for Travis. Pearls before swine entered my mind early on into the conversation, but I want to commend Aaron for continuing the talk for just short of two hours. The result may not have been a changed heart in Travis, but hopefully a soul saved from the thousands who will watch this video. Thank you for your faithfulness in serving!
Dude, good luck with “saving” one person. If anything it gives members like me more knowledge and how to handle people like apologia. Nothing but the same old tract every time.
I don't believe that verse applies in this situation because he is trying to win a soul back to Christ and why would you want someone to suffer eternally in hell for your willful ommission of the Gospel. Who cares if they don't hear it, it's our duty on this earth to spread the gospel of Christ.
Aaron isn't a member of the church or the group who posted this video. Also, Travis came off looking horrible in this video with no solid foundation. He dismisses one of the LDS standard works, the Bible, with scorn. Nothing about this video makes Travis look good to anyone other than the kids in his exclusive Facebook group for only teen missionaries.
Aaron seemingly has never questioned his theological framework, where it came from, and why it should be accepted--all the while he criticizes LDS for putting theirs front and center. Now he is confronted with the reality that he has not laid a foundation to build his arguments on
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - - what is conveyed at about 28:00 regarding God becoming God? - - - God is eternal and can also transcend time. God has always been God, is God now, and will forever be God. In a transcendent time based context otherwise Jesus descendend into a mortal state that includes time as we exist in time. - - - God is otherwise without beginning of days or end of years amid an eternal context. Yet we’re given New Testament indications that Jesus “grew” in “wisdom and stature”. So God transcends both time and timelessness.
If you can, I'd recommend taking REL225C "Foundations of Restoration". I'm not saying what you're saying right now is wrong or anything, just that it's such a transformative experience that I'm going to shill it like this.
The original conversation was over 3 hours long. Why'd you cut out so much Aaron? Also, Travis' approach to Gospel principles is very circumspect (which may inform or be informed by his background in Law and a previous period of time as an Athiest). Generally-Speaking, when people talk and interact, there are a lot of assumptions going on that we don't even think about, so the value in taking a circumspect approach in the realm of God yields the fruits of a more profound and confidence-building result. (Takes stepping-stones to get to that point, so don't worry too much about it. God can and will work with you as you are.)
Aaron, you were so extremely patient with him. In spite of his confusion tactics, especially in the way of rapid-fire assumptive statements, I applaud you for maintaining focus and being clear in your communication.
The Only one with Tactics here was Aaron.... he admits he's had passed experiences with LDS people in the video. He finally met one who knows what he's talking about, and has actually studied.
18:56 Forgiveness is a process not an event 21:37 This is why 22:23 It's not encouragement it's what inevitably happens as we live life 22:57 This is what Travis just said 23:50 stated again 25:43 this is why covenants are important 26:39 this 27:26 This. language changes over time people change. 27:46 not a merit system. What? 28:32 King Follet is about the resurrection of a physical body 29:1829:39 god did not literally write the Bible 30:09 32:13 what is this aurgument 32:25 they are using reasoning not theology. 33:07 Sometimes people just don't learn more about theology 34:53 Miscontext of the sermon Read the whole thing. It's about the resurrection of a physical body. Adam and Eve were made in the image of God 35:55 36:19 The church is responsible 37:18 Read the whole sermon instead of cherry-picking 38:08 the common reading? 38:42 context is important 39:26 God entered a mortal experience the same as Jesus christ did. If we were to follow the Father and christ there would be no difference 40:57 yup 41:49 the father and the son were already god Stopped watching after this It seems aaron has limited ability to reason.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
We all know that Travis (burner account: @LazarusSchell) lies throughout this video, but a great example is at the 35:35 mark of this video. @LazarusSchell says that the King Follett discourse is an obscure passage. This is lie. Travis knows it's a lie. Yet he repeats the lie multiple times. What does the church says about what Travis is saying? "There is no complete or verbatim record of what Joseph said, but several individuals took notes, making this one of Joseph’s best-recorded sermons. In the sermon, Joseph taught about divine nature and eternal progression. He countered the long-standing theological tradition that treated God as wholly different than humanity. He explained that “if men do not comprehend the character of God they do not comprehend themselves.”3 He taught that God “was once as one of us” and that “all the spirits that God ever sent into the world” were “susceptible of enlargement,” having the capacity to become like God in the eternities.4 Joseph also taught that a core part of each person is coeternal with God, comparing this divine core to a ring, without beginning or end." - THE LDS CHURCH How many lies can you spot in what Travis was presenting based on this text directly from the church's website? How about Google AI? "AI Overview The King Follett Discourse, delivered by Joseph Smith on April 7, 1844 at a general conference in Nauvoo, Illinois, is considered one of his greatest sermons. The sermon included several important teachings, including: Humanity's premortal existence: God was once human, and all spirits sent into the world have the potential to become like God in the eternities Divine potential: People can become gods, and a core part of each person is coeternal with God The nature of God: God is like a man, and the Father once lived on Earth as Jesus Christ does The Joseph Smith Papers Accounts of the “King Follett Sermon” - The Joseph Smith Papers Joseph Smith gave an address on 7 April 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois, at a general conference... The discourse also included the idea that people must learn how to make themselves gods. LDS Church president Lorenzo Snow later summarized some of the discourse's doctrines in a couplet that is often repeated in the church: "As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be". Generative AI is experimental." Travis is a liar and should be ignored by Christians and Mormons alike.
It's rather noteworthy that he has not responded to that particular claim despite the number of times you've challenged them. It's very much in-alignment with how Anderson instructs his Cavalry missionaries to not respond to questions regarding whether they are in the group, or whether Travis and/or someone else is helping them compose replies that they can copy-paste.
Mr. Anderson keeps asking for 1 Scripture, from the Bible, that outright explains or says Trinity. Can he apply that same criteria to LDS beliefs of theTelestial kingdom, God was a man that became a God, pre-existence, temple marriage, using only the Bible?
I don’t think you mean “The Bible”. You could give Travis the entire standard works of the LDS church and he wouldn’t be able to do that. He keeps asking for Aaron to give him only one author in one book, so it’s much harder for him, since none of the LDS practices are ever laid out in the standard works, let alone by one author in one book.
@@trent9297 I am a non-denominational follower of Jesus. May I ask if you believe that one MUST belong to a certain denomination in order to be saved ?
As difficult as this attempt at a civil discussion was with Mr. Anderson, it was very instructive. Thank you for posting this. His arrogant attempts to control the discussion via interrupting, straw-manning, and provoking were extremely offputting. I have NO idea why anyone would want to be in any church that produces members like this. If this is the fruit of Mormonism, I'll pass! Mormons, I would simply ask you this: Is this the type of person that you want representing you and your church to outsiders?
Y'all just like Mormons to be nice and soft and To never push back or give you the same energy y'all have been giving us for decades. Travis is tired of seeing Apologia pouncing on unsuspecting members and playing gotcha games so he called them out on it just like Jesus called out the scribes and Pharisees.
@@jacobmayberry1126There's quite a span between being "nice and soft" and what we witnessed from Travis. I get the sense that we will see more and more of this kind of approach from LDS members. The era of the nice Mormon might be coming to an end and the era of the wild West Mormons is showing signs of resurfacing.
Do you want people like Jeff Durbin representing your church, whichever of the 46,000 different denominations of “traditional/historical Christianity“ is your church? This video is just a mirror image of any “Jeff Durbin interviewing a ’Mormon’ on the street” video. Jeff constantly talks over and interrupts his interviewees. And to those who think this LDS guy is arrogant? Pot meet kettle… there is none more arrogant than a Calvinist insisting that they have the correct exegesis of scripture and everyone else’s interpretation is esigesis.
@@WhatdoesthatReallymean-ps1kn I don't care for Durbin's approach at all but this guy Travis is extremely obnoxious and rude. Also, it isn't advisable to justify his behavior and attitude by pointing at others. I'm not a Calvinist btw so I'm not in disagreement with you on your conclusions, but I think we should all agree that Travis had the wrong spirit in this interaction.
Not an effective "apologist". He wants to argue for the authority of his LDS "apostles" but says "classic latter day saints' understanding is irrelevant". He is like those papalists who argue for the authority of the latest pope to totally contradict what has previously been authoritatively taught invoking papal authority. Mormonism is full of doctrinal and moral confusion because it denigrates the authority of God's word in the Bible.
The same way the Jews find what Peter said was irrelevant. Do believers following Peter in the first century not be updating their understanding of previous prophets. 😂😂😂
@@bambie1830 God is not a God of confusion. His prophets and apostles teach the same truth consistently, with no contradiction. Christ and the apostles fulfilled what Moses and the prophets taught, and the ending of temporary rituals and sacrifices of the old Law was done in testifying to the truth of their having been given by God as temporary ordinances pointing towards their fulfilment in Christ and the Church. So they are relevant, and part of God's consistent revelation. No doctrine or moral teaching is a contradicted.
@@anselman3156but the only reason you think they are consistent is you've interpreted them towards your conclusion to begin with. If the original author, if the original audience, and if no modern Divine authority came to that conclusion, we have no basis to assume it was the correct one. The Pharisees were master scriptorians, engaging in the very practice of combining scriptures to arrive at what, to them, was God's intended conclusion, and it left them "looking beyond the mark." It seems foolish to think that road would work this time. As an honest follow up to this, if you believe God can wrest control of His messenger to perfectly speak forth His word, why take 3000+ years to assemble the message? Why not hand a completed work to Adam and tell him to get copying? This view of revelation doesn't seem to explain what you claim is God's actual behavior.
Aaron here. I am the guy on the left. To those LDS missionaries out there watching this: I pray for you and I want you do know the grace of Jesus that I encountered. I encourage you to read the Gospel of John and Romans with humility.
Perfect note to end end on. Always pray for those against you What do you have to say to those who accuse you guys of editing the video down for dishonest ends?
@@nathanielwhitfield7933 Looks like Aaron may have deleted my previous comment. The Full 3 hour discussion is available on Travis Andersons account if anyone wants to see why it was cut.
@@aviatrix8183 If Travis was constantly positioning himself near your public places of worship, ambushing your congregants, and often blatantly/hypocritically misrepresenting your sincerely held religious beliefs, you might be visibly annoyed as well.
Man this was an exhausting conversation. I commend the guy trying to witness to the Mormon. I personally don’t know if I could mentally handle his behavior. God have mercy on his soul.
Only Travis is the one that totally understands what SWK was REALLY saying in his book ? Wow! That book totally made me realize how impossible the LDS gospel truly is.
It is interesting that some are saying that travis was not being Christ like. First of, for years these people would stand in front of our place of worship and tell us how we are worshinp the wrong Jesus and we are going to hell. They are comfortable doing so because lds people are kind, and this guy actually admits that on the video. So all of the sudden it is a surprise to see an lds person who is standing firm and know how to hold a conversation against their ideology. We worshipping the wrong Jesus and yet we are not acting Christ like, Which is it? You cannot expect us to be kind and Christ like when you already judge us to be going to hell and worshipping the wrong God. This conversation did not start with the attention to learn and inviting the holy Spirit. This was a debate. These people are there to confront lds people and tell them how wrong they are. Base on the content of this video and discussion im glad travis approach it the way he did.
I would counter with the LDS church telling those outside of it that we are the "church of the devil" (1 Nephi 14:10). Joseph Smith declared that every church is "corrupt" and "abominable" (Joseph Smith- History 1:19). Just remember that every non LDS church you drive and/or walk by, LDS scriptures declare that they are the church of the devil and are both corrupt and abominable. It was the founder of your religion that essentially fired the first shot, Biblical Christianity is just responding back to the claim with truth.
@@CarlLemings Why not quote the verses in context?? 1 Ne. 14:9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil. 10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And JS History 1:18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)-and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” 20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. So, are you admitting that the devil is the founder of your church? Are you also admitting that you are a professor of corrupt creeds?
These guys depend on meeting Latter-Day Saints that are steeped in the niceness culture and avoid contention at all costs. It catches them off guard when they encounter knowledgeable members that are willing to stand on their hind legs.
If Travis believes in fallible LDS scripture, how can he trust any word it? Line upon line, precept upon precept, but there is zero foundation for it, why should he believe anything the LDS church says about anything.
There are biblical contradictions that cannot be mutually true at the same time but many Christians still believe it wholly. You can have fallible men and fallible books that still speak truth.
While there are critiques to be made about Travis' arguments, this is a bad take. The logical conclusion of your interpretation is to absolutely never trust anyone or anything ever because of possible errors. My boss is errant, therefore I shouldn't trust him, maybe I should even quit my job. My teacher is errant, therefore even though he has expertise in the field, I should avoid him because he may say something wrong every once in a great while. My parents aren't perfect, therefore I should disregard their parenting skills as wholly untrustworthy. Equivalent would be: scripture/leaders may contain/speak errors therefore there is absolutely nothing to trust within it/them. Travis clearly doesn't hold that extreme view. Fallible things can still be trusted.
Because in lds theology the word of God is continually being received. Because we dont have a static text to rely upon we dont have to force it to be infallible to stand on it.
Newer believer here. I’m only an hour into this video but the line of questioning I hope Aaron gets to is “what is your standard of truth?” If there is no one standard of truth by which to test everything, how can we know what is true? Travis doesn’t seem to believe anything is inerrant, not the Bible or even the Mormon prophets. So, why does he believe what he believes? And why would his personal belief be correct above anyone else’s belief? This conversation reminds me of John 8:47. I hope we all will pray for Travis, and that the Lord reveals the truth to him.
I agree that a spiritually objective standart is required, I even believe the Bible teaches such a standart, but it excludes the bible itself from being that standart, because even if the Bible were inerrant, peoples hearts and minds prove not to be, and so it wouldnt even make sense to have the bible be inerrant. How to know spiritual truth goes much deeper than that and should not stop at ones interpretation of the bible.
@@Jackyk12 I believe two things are most vital, first, to truly care about context. We need to interpret the Bible the way it was meant when it was written down, and best way to get that context is to engage with scholars of the Bible that prove to place the data above the dogma. This has helped me greatly to love and embrace the Bible much more, because suddenly many things started to make sense. Being honest and authentic about what the texts of the bible and the data present to us really is key. Second, Paul was very clear that neitherr faith, works, nor the knowing of all of Gods mysteries (including getting every doctrine correct) means that we actually "know God", because he points out that even if people have all these things, but lack charity, its all of no value. Thousands of people read the Bible and yet still have different outcomes of believes. Thousands of people have been born again, have spiritual experiences and yet still have different interpretations and understandings of doctrines. So mayby there is greater purpose behind it, mayby because getting every doctrine right is not what equals finding truth. Jesus thaught that in the last days we are to discern truth from deception by its fruits. Pauls makes clear these fruits do not refere to faith, works, knowing all mysteries or miracles being brought forth. Instead we learn that those to are in posession of charity, know God (1 John 4:8), and those that know God in that manner, have eternal life (John 17:3). In other words, the only thing we can know for sure is whether we, ourselves, are transformed towards charity. Whatever leads to that transformations taking place, is of God,. And thats why doctrines, no matter how inerrant, are not above all relevant if that is not the outcome,. And that is why even if things are imperfect, but do have that outcome, it leads to eternal life. So combine the two, the academia, the context, the data, but understand that spiritual truth doesnt need more than transforming people towards becoming charity. A great example in the scriptures for that is the parable of the good Samaritan. Though he was pagan, worshiping God in false ways, not having faith, Jesus still considered him to be "good", merely because of him bringing forth mercy and charity from a pure heart. Not sure that makes sense, but that way I have been able to see God work on a much larger skale.
@@SimonDaumMusic James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
@@SimonDaumMusic James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
The Mormon guy has a nasty habit of equivocating when convenient and obfuscating by over complication when convenient. That’s really disappointing to see from someone who wants to be taken seriously
Every time they speak, they testify against the scriptures they claim to get authority from. LDS can claim the same authority. They have a Bible, and they interpret it. lol
After watching this video, why would anyone want to align themselves with Travis? He has a foundation of nothing. He only applies logic one direction and scorns the Bible. Tell me this, can you or Travis tell me how to be saved using the LDS plan of salvation, but only somewhere in the standard works and only by the same author in the same book? Travis was requesting this of Aaron throughout the conversation, so it should be easy.
@@trex5828 sorry but your question makes no sense to ask to a Latter Day Saint. We don’t hold to sola scriptura. Do you understand the LDS faith at all?
@@LatterDayDebate I get it. You are trying to be a Travis clone. However, if you want to debate, you should read and understand my questions. I didn't say anywhere that you should find the answer in one book of the Bible. I said, "Tell me where I can find the answer of how to be saved anywhere in LDS standard works." But according to Travis, it needs to be one author in the same book. It can't be doctrine that's gathered from multiple sources. That being said, since you show nothing but contempt for your own standard works, go ahead and link any current LDS seer and revelator (since past apostles are all now heretics like Kimball or McConkie) who gave a singular talk or wrote a singular book or even ensign article that lays out every step on how to be saved according to the LDS. But remember, according to your spiritual father Travis, it can't be more than one person, and it can't be in more than one book or talk. I'm waiting with bated breath.
I shared the gospel with a couple Mormons and they brought Travis in after a couple meetings. Glad someone else had the opportunity to witness Christ to him! Good reminder to be praying for him, thank you Apologia! Travis was also claiming James White was ducking someone.. curious if y’all helped set up a debate
That's because most members of the church are not able to argue with people like Aaron. That's because Aaron is a deceptionist. Maybe he doesn't realize it. I don't know. But he's not interested in learning. Travis was trying to explain where Aaron is wrong (and he wrong everywhere). Nobody wants to hear Aaron's lies (out at least his egregious misunderstandings) and if he's not willing to hear where he is foundationally incorrect, I am not interested in hearing what he wants to babble.
@@jimconner3105 Basically Travis' position includes a strong belief that the Bible is pretty useless and that only scholars who can read the ancient languages are capable of understanding it. From his position, there is nothing that is reliable except for LDS prophets, and when they are wrong they are speaking as men, not prophets. "You would have to have a subsequent revelator, a seer, to understand those texts". This is the foundation of cults - distrust the accepted scriptures and put your faith in the charismatic man instead. I wish my LDS brothers could understand how they are being deceived. Members look for anything even remotely plausible to satisfy the contradictions. For example, not caring that the Book of Abraham is a fictitious translation of scrolls, or that that Book of Mormon does not tell a true history.
Travis, to throw out a statement because its status has changed over time doesn’t bode well for last conferences talks or claims made by current leaders.
As a member of the LDS faith I do not condone the conduct or tone, in which Travis spoke to Aaron. I think he's argumentative and is unwilling at times to listen to Aaron. I believe there is more common ground to be shared by LDS disciples and those of the Protestant faith, than simply tearing one another down all the time. That being said, when Protestants/Calvinists/Evangelicals come to the streets of Provo Utah, an knowingly stand ajacent to one of our temples in anattempt to talk with as many Mormons as possible (like at our Conferences in SLC), and claims to want to have a heartfelt discussion about our church teachings, it is not in good faith and is very decieptful in my opinion. It's antagonistic in nature and done in attempt to "scatter the flock" by misrepresenting false narratives and doctrines. So I somewhat understand the combative interaction by Travis. He's defending the flock to some degree. Matt 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
If Jesus himself said to go and tell, you lived near Provo, and felt that the Mormon church was actively leading people away from God, don’t you think that you would feel an obligation to speak with them? As J. Reuben Clark said, “If we have truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not truth, it ought to be harmed." There is nothing to be lost by having discussions on a public street corner. It’s good for everyone involved.
Travis won...... most annoying, most interrupting, most antagonistic, most deflecting....if he is going to reject scripture, shut down points being made before they are finished and only accept his own opinion.... it is impossible to lose, but he has disqualified himself from actually winning anything. He might as well put his fingers in his ears and mumble incoherently.
Apologia just got absolutely SPANKED! 😂
Catholic Here- Aaron was unable to overcome the issues with Sola Scriptura.
How many times are you guys going to post this video 😂
You got bested, cope with it😂
I'm surprised you posted this, Travis wrecked you lol
And this was after they edited out 1/3rd of the whole conversation, to make it look as good as they could get it.
20 min in Aaron realized he is getting schooled and cannot compete with the intellectual superiority of Travis so he knows the only way this video will be successful is by trying to depict Travis as an “arrogant” and rude person and he is so patient and Christlike. Aaron knows Travis entirely dismantled his theology and the way he approaches Mormons.
Aaron, I’m LDS and in some ways share your perspective. It’s true that your beliefs of the church were one time accurate but I can tell you from the inside, members don’t believe the 1980’s Mormonism you know. Every aspect of the faith has transitioned in one way or another. It is mind boggling but what it is.
Aaron didn’t write this title. He doesn’t even go to Apologia lol.
Travis didn’t say anything other than anything that has been taught and understood by members for the last 200 years is wrong and he understands why. Would’ve been great for all those members “following the prophet” to know their prophet was wrong about things as critical as grace and the Godhood. “Those are their opinions” ???? Not when they’re speaking from the pulpit as a prophet seer and revelator. Travis, knows this and yall know this.
Aaron didn’t present Travis as anything. Travis is arrogant and rude on his own. By your fruits ye shall know them, right? Or does it not apply when it makes you look bad?
I appreciated this conversation. Aaron was very patient. I also appreciated Travis and how he articulated his view. I really wished though he would of let Aaron finish his thoughts. Big takeaway was the example of Aaron and how patient and kind we all need to be and show respect and listen to one another. Thanks
Travis is by far the smartest person in this discussion; Aaron is the nicest.
He doesn't even know LDS doctrine.
@@leviporter480 Judgement refers to determining the righteousness of someone with condemnation. I evaluated his knowledge of LDS doctrine. To me Travis seems to need to have an answer for everything, and I heard him say things that were out of sync with current and historic LDS doctrine. An example would be his statements about Adam/God.
So you have to be smart to be right about God ? Seems like a contradiction. Plus using big words doesn’t make you smart . Realizing your position has flaws and addressing them makes someone smart.
@@jonathanmccoy2247 Yes, I agree that being able to see your own flawed reasoning is a sign of wisdom.
@@mdcarson please tell me that was sarcasm. It took the kid 25 minutes to grasp the concept of representing his church. His number 1 argument, that he used probably 20 times, was "thats your interpretation". He tried to use John 17, a passage that outright refutes Josephs Myth, to prove his claims. The kid clearly is not educated in basic theology, Christian belief, LDS history, sayings and writings of their so-called prophets, nor the ability to shutup and listen for more than 12 seconds. I wouldnt be surprised if @mdcarson is the poor fool himself!
Bro you got bodied by this guy. Calling someone arrogant doesn’t mean you automatically win
The Mormon guy is clearly in error. The Bible is the best anti Mormon literature ever. Mormons are blasphemy in the highest degree……as a Jewish man I can say that no other cult has harmed the Jewish people like this cult. Hitler wasn’t as blasphemous to the Jewish people as Mormons are. Hell bound people
@@upstandersupernova what’s your position for Mormons ?
@@upstandersupernova I don’t hate them, I just hate what they have done to our savior, they strip him of his deity, they steal his priesthood that belongs to him and him alone , they make him out to be a psychopath in the Book of Mormon.
@@jamesrexsannatracy8318 I've never heard anyone say that before. People usually just say they have the wrong Jesus.
I can't imagine how anyone would make Jesus look like a psychopath. Paul maybe, but not Jesus. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who believes Paul was a murdering, schizophrenic psychopath. I'm mean he was. Well, before he fell off the horse he was a murdering psychopath, but wasn't after he fell off the horse; he was just schizophrenic after that.
I'm just kidding. I love the story about Paul becoming an apostle.
He’s not your Savior. Why make it possessive?
Bravo Travis. The guardrails Protestants have placed around their beliefs is incredible. It’s the one thing I love about LDS theology, we love truth. The more truth we can get the better. Travis’s deep understanding of the historical nature of the text and the plain approach brings so much to light. Thank you!!
Just to clarify Travis recorded this and this whole conversation is over 3 hours long. So there might be things that have been left out.
Tons that Aaron cut out. That's the nature of nearly all channels operate in regards to Theological or Political Debate.
Wow this is too good. I love the way Aaron continually circles back on his argument, despite it being destroyed time and time again by Travis. Well done Travis!
Wow what smackdown from Travis. Truth will prevail
my goodness he slapped apologia
I love how Travis is holding Aaron accountable to his words. I love Aaron’s kindness. A Mormon that goes on the offensive… I don’t have any problem with it.
No travis is just arrogant. If aaron was acting the same way even though i might agree with his premise id have to accept aaron argued poorly
@@beckywalton5200 I agree with this: Travis does *not* represent the LDS people well. Put another way: Travis is not representative of the typical Latter-day Saint we meet on the street or have relationships with in Utah. Mormons are characteristically kind and reasonable in their conversational demeanor.
@@AaronShafovaloff1 can you explain why you didn’t show the first 30 or so minutes and last 30 or so minutes of this “debate”? I’m guessing because it showed Travis getting bombed with questions so fast he couldn’t answer them all and by at least three people at one time. It would explain his lack of patience and irritable tone the remainder of the video where you then want to play like you had a soft, slow non-accusatory tone the entire video. You Sir are dishonest by editing in that way. Shame on you.
@@beckywalton5200yes you are right. Cutting an obscenely long 3 hour video into a, still extremely long (for youtube) 2 hours without a doubt proves malicious intent. That was an astute observation Becky. Mormonism is true. Christians are liars. Good job Becky. You're amazing Becky.
@@AaronShafovaloff1 Why should anyone care about what the "typical Latter-day Saint" believes? Most typical Latter-day Saints haven't deeply analyzed their faith like you or Travis have.
Travis laid out a great explanation of LDS theology and how dishonest the gotcha questions are that are used in Apologia's street interviews. His style may turn some people off, but that doesn't negate that he theologically dismantled every false premise, doctrine, and assumption one by one. Aaron was patient and kind, but he still refused to have an honest discussion when Travis pointed to falsities about Mormon theology that he had been spreading. That's the problem with these type of discussions - the evangelical street preacher comes in with the premise that everything he believes is correct and what he "thinks" he knows about LDS theology is correct. When presented with an LDS apologist with a deep knowledge, evangelical street preachers never listen and continue to use the same tired mormon tropes that have been debunked many times before. LDS theology is basically Christianity-explained. I don't understand why evangelical pastors purposefully distort LDS theology and attack latter-day saints. Its just sad.
Yeah no. Hes just machine gunning instead of understanding aaron. The lds church is not christ church.
@@Aaron-SLCno Aaron has no idea what actually is lds doctrine. All these apologia guys are like 40 years behind. It’s actually embarrassing. The Mormons that leave don’t leave from evangelicals. Yall have no idea why people leave.
I would agree however, Travis’ style doesn’t just turn some people off….its clearly intellectual pride on display. Arrogance with the denial that he could even communicate in a different way is a lie. It’s a Choice. He feels empowered by his dominance and the spirit flees immediately. It cannot attend in such a conversation which leaves Travis unto himself. People will not be taught or converted by Aaron or Travis without the Holy Ghost. Furthermore we may be sick and tired of getting misrepresented and out right lied about so we gravitate toward someone like Travis further bolstering him to continue, but this is not the way. We are not encouraged ever to communicate in defending our faith and understanding of the Savior in such a crass way. It’s reprehensible and does us no favors in the sight of God.
@@bambie1830 You wrote, "no Aaron has no idea what actually is lds doctrine." Can you specify where I have shown a misunderstanding? One way I try to faithfully depict LDS teaching is to bring together its historic, institutional, canonical, and common teachings and beliefs - robustly considered. The "big picture" view.
@AaronShafovaloff1 you're a coward and a joke. You know nothing about lds theology. This video proves that all you do is strawman arguments, nothing more. Have you ever once asked a member what we believe instead of assuming in your arrogance?
The title is hilarious. Travis is arrogant because he knows his stuff and doesn't get steam rolled like your usual unsuspecting victims.
For most of my life we have really taken the approach of turn the other cheek and build on common beliefs. And we go on missions to find the people that are ready to hear the truth.
But it feels good to take the gloves off and not be passive sometimes.
Apologia is a church setup to get money, not bring people closer to Christ, change my mind.
Thank you for sharing! God bless the Christian brother for remaining so patient.
You got walked like a dog buddy. It’s not too late to exercise humility and come unto Christ and His restored gospel. Accepting the truths of God is liberating.
Irrespective of how we, the viewers may feel about this encounter - I think it's appropriate as Christians to encourage one another to be regularly praying for Travis.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves to be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even the tax collectors, do they not do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Even the Gentiles, do they not do the same? - Mt 5:43-47
A good perspective
@MormonMyths1830 Why didn’t you include the final completing thought to this scriptural theme of unconditional love with Jesus’ command to his followers:
5:48…. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
@WhatdoesthatReallymean-ps1kn my perfection is in Christ Jesus. Not only did he atone for my sins but his righteousness is inputed to those that believe on his name.
@WhatdoesthatReallymean-ps1kn by perfect- we mean complete and/or mature and whole- perfect. Not in appearance or puffing up. Again, we don't have to speak greek or hebrew we have many translations that actually help us to understand the origin and meaning. Get a Strongs Concordance or use Google for good.
Don't worry about praying for Travis...pray for yourself and your posterity
Actually, I want to thank Apologia for posting this. It takes a lot of bravery to post a video of yourself getting owned
Marc, at best you can say that no one was “owned”. At worst, Travis nullified every argument he had in any belief by admitting to his belief that all scripture is fallible. He presumed to be smarter than everyone around him by rejecting infallibility.
This was pure reactionary rhetoric on Travis’s part. I think he shot himself in the foot by telling Aaron, “You think this conservation is going to be productive?” after Aaron kindly suggested to tone it down a bit. Half the time he never even let him finish a sentence. You can win the argument by never running out of things to say but lose the person completely.
I prefer the complete version that was a little over 3 hours long. Aaron cut out the best (worst) bits.
@@vincentpena5574 twenty years of dealing with apologia. He’s knows the playbook
LDS members are becoming better defending the true faith and this is upsetting the Creedist Christians that they have to start to defend their Trinity with scattered verses throughout the Bible and cannot find one verse or one author of the bible explaining it in simple terms. As the trinity is so important to salvation, they cannot seem to defend it. Time to start asking them questions about the trinity, sola scriptura, the creeds, the end of public revelation, and more.
At 52:00 Travis makes a shocking statement that he doesn't believe the words attributed to Jesus by John were necessarily said by Jesus at all.
That’s not shocking that’s reality. The only basis you have to believe that is that you choose to lol. You have no idea if Jesus said it or not.
@@nickallen2288 It's shocking that, if somebody thinks the words of Jesus in the Bible are not authentic, that person would waste any time in church at all. What a sad and miserable existence!
Apologia really took an L on this one.
Christ gets the W.
Is Aaron at Apologia or Gospel Hope? Or do you know?
Amen.
@@AaronShafovaloff1Certainly. But you were out classed badly here.
So, when you take an L, Christ gets a W? That’s a bold strategy
Really good example of difficult conversations you may run into while evangelizing! Really enjoyed this even though it was frustrating at parts (as I'm sure it was for Aaron!).
Travis expertly dismantled Aaron's misunderstanding of the false doctrineof sola scriptura, highlighting its inconsistencies, and exposed Aaron's lack of knowledge about LDS theology, leaving him thoroughly embarrassed in the discussion and posts this video anyway for all to see the smackdown.
That is why they had to heavily edit the video.
Lmao the comments are hilarious. Travis consistently restructures the gotcha comments to an applicable lens of LDS theology and the comments think he’s some kind of “rude” person 💀💀 LDS members don’t owe you anything.
I’m genuinely surprised that there are people that watched this and came to the conclusion that Travis did anything but embarrass himself.
Travis posted the full discussion on his youtube channel, and it includes another 30 minutes before and after this clip.
I think watching that gives you a more full context.
@@Misa_Susaki By all means, listen to it all. It remains clear: Travis has to resort to an insolent filibuster instead of patient unpacking of arguments.
@@AaronShafovaloff1 I wonder how I'd do if I ever ran into you 😭
If you ever meet a guy with curly red hair, it's me!
@@AaronShafovaloff1 Is that why you had to keep circling back to the same falsehood he had already refuted? LOL. Or was that part of the hour that you edited out? You are such a snowflake.
Did this guy just say being born again is a "silly experience"? A burning in the bosom is not?
He doesn't have a burning in the bosom, he understands most religious experiences are just emotions.
What are you talking about
He’s pointing out the fallacy that many protestants make when they claim that dem ‘Mormons’ are just relying on ‘feelings’ of a deceitful heart, when the protestant must, by necessity, fall back to similar claims when pressed on why they believe the Bible.
Travis tries to control the conversation by asking annoying and insulting questions. He should simply state his position and not bully other people. Sad.
Travis' complaint about Aaron's evangelizing the LDS is hypocritical coming from a seriously missionary church that does exactly the same thing. Come on Travis.
Nah, Aaron tries to control the conversation by asking annoying and insulting questions and editing the videos to make the Latter-Day Saint look as bad as possible. He should simply state his position and not bully other people. Sad.
Aaron's complaint about Travis' arrogance is hypocritical coming from a seriously GOTCHA church that does worse. Come on Aaron, stop being a snowflake.
Really appreciate how the brother slowed down the conversation. Thank you for modeling how to do this. I take notes and go out when I can. Many Mormons at my school. May the Lord bless you and continue to grow Apologia ministries.
Hopefully they aren’t as arrogant as this guy…good luck . They do need prayer and told about the truth,way to look out for your classmates…cool
You should actually learn LDS doctrine from them... Not from dishonest people like Aaron.
@@LazarusSchell I have studied Mormonism for more than 2000 hours on my own. It’s false , blasphemous and untrue. It’s so satanic that it’s absolutely disgusting……don’t tell me to understand what I already understand…I’m a very educated person. Especially when it comes to false religious cults
Yeah definitely take notes from aaron, that way you can get schooled as well
@@wilfordthe4th422 Is every Mormon a 10th grade boy?
You know, part of the problem with this ministry in particular is the bringing up old stereotypes about members. We arent all the same like yall think.
Hey aren’t you the guy (Elliks Green) who encouraged your fellow Mormons to spam Apologia Utah with fake google reviews?
Seems like you’re cut from the same cloth as Travis to me
@@LylaAshton are they fake reviews when they're true? Apologia Church puts everything they do online, we know everything they do all the time
Change title to “protestant gets owned by mormon”
I am so sorry you perceive this interview that way… this is the epitome of pride, arrogance and projection in defense of false doctrines and false prophets.
Haha honestly. He did get owned
Mormon literally said nothing. I wouldn't even consider him a Mormon as he said multiple times he doesn't even agree with them. Saying you don't agree woth something or using your personal beliefs to define your answer and religion is not an argument it's hubris at best.
If you know where to look, you can find the 3 hour version that includes all the little goodies that Aaron cut out because it made him look too bad. Travis' "I've been patiently enduring evil for 3 hours" was hilarious to me.
@@Karli_searches_and_praysno it’s objective in this case.
How could God have ever sinned? He sent His Son into this world as a living sacrifice for our sins and His Son replaced the unblemished sacrifices. If the Son was unblemished how could the Father have been blemished?
you make absolute no sense wow, where and what scripture who has said that? proof?
@@antimormon-px1eqif sinful Mormons can become a “god” it proves the point that you believe in a “god” that was once as you are.
Why can’t Mormons just state what Mormonism teaches and what they believe? Travis dodged every question.
I was a lost Mormon believing these absurd teachings but Jesus Christ saved me from the devils snare.
@@jaredwilliams1157 They don't teach that man can become God.... Nor do they believe that God was once like we are now. That's a gross misinterpretation. Which is certainly expected out of the ignorant......
was that a statement? or what? what is your point? if you wont understand actually go to somebody more educated than men im not gonna sit here and lie you cant just make claims and not know the actual facts its absurd and funny when a critic or a anti mormon comes to claim and interpret their own meanings go read the whole king follet discourse yourself go watch robert boylan a lds apologist, go watch blake ostler go actually read his book go pray about it multiple times and see the difference between satan and god, actually go be relevant instead of being irrelevant like you are using a straw man attack if you didint know! your using overused claims and not actually, to change your terms go study what the 15 fallacies are actually go read a book or go find a proper validated source!!!
@LazarusSchell every mormon I've talked to has stated otherwise. I've talked to about a dozen, maybe more.
Travis dominated the conversation. I’m surprised Apologia actually posted this 😂
They had to upload it, they have to record and upload everything all the time, they do it to please there lord and master, the anti mormon burger King
It’s like he presupposed subjective everything
Aaron, great job I hear your heart, he clearly wouldn't receive it. I pray for the mustard seeds to grow!
Travis won the debate but they can claim they were humbly intellectually obliterated. Of claiming you were more humble while denouncing a world religion that does more and gives more charity seems odd.
It doesn't. The $100,000,000,000 it has fraudulently saved through multiple fake corporations like ensign peak and spending 1 B, of that on a mall means they've spent more money on a mall than ever on charity as an organization.
I sincerely hope travis becomes willing to be open to stating his beliefs and views. Instead, he currently is like the child on the playground in hide and seek saying "you didn't actually find me, this isn't my real hiding spot".
Wait a minute. Why didn't it include the entire interview? Somebody emailed me the whole interview. Why did you guys cut off the last twenty or thirty minutes?
So why don't you post the link to the entire video?
It feels like you are purposely lying to try to make the people who posted this look badly.
The conversation with Aaron ends where it is cut. Other people, not Aaron, jump in and Travis starts yelling at them. Aaron doesn't talk again and isn't involved.
@@trex5828 Are you sure that's not Aaron continuing to talk to him? It sounds like Aaron. And if that is the case (which, maybe) why didn't they end the video with the end of Aaron and Travis's talk? They just cut it off.
A perfect example of someone listening just to respond rather than listening to learn.
That usually goes both ways in a religious debate. That isn't news or surprising. ❤
"Christian" Doctrine is so full of contradictions when you study it.... how can you build on such a thing. The LDS guy clearly understands their perspective, and doesn't care for it. Perhaps that's why so many are leaving their faiths?
@@LazarusSchell
You made a claim, now back it up! Show me where “Christian doctrine” is contradictory. It should be easy since you are so confident.
@@levibaer18trinity...sola scriptura...faith alone...baptism needed or not?...etc
@@whiteknight557
Keep digging! Lol. Show me where any of those statements are contradictory in the Bible.
The mormon guy put the Apologia Utah guy in his pocket (as we would say here in Brazil).
I think I interacted with Travis ten years ago on Facebook. Seeing this video explains so, so much.
Salty much?
@@zachlemon6081 nope, not at all.
You still remember?
@@TyleRMatin6532 yup
He was a butthole
Thanks for posting this, learned much about the Mormon theology! great work by Travis
My brother, you handled yourself with such incredibly grace and restraint. The pride of Travis was overwhelming. Lord's blessings on you, Aaron!
I’d change the name of the video to. “Aaron assumes he knows LDS theology and finds out he has no idea what he’s talking about”
Everyone has presuppositions Travis, it’s unavoidable and natural. 1:09:11
Alternative Title: Apologia church makes the mistake of interviewing someone who actually knows the doctrine of his church, therefore doesn't go very well, which leads to calling said member "Swine, arrogant, and insolent." If you are going to preach to Mormons that they are going to hell because they dont believe in your man made beliefs about a 2000 year old document, you should be more prepared.
Hi Nathan. Would you characterize Travis as humble in this conversation?
Or, "Apologia Church attempts to reason with contrarian"
@@AaronShafovaloff1
I wouldn't. Definitely not the first thing I would characterize about him, anyway. I also consider that maybe he felt like he had to be that way in order to debate a calvinist. Being humble, wouldn't be how I would characterize many that debate religion. I would like to see how he is when he's not debating religion. I would like to also say that being calm, cool and collected isn't necessarily being humble. ❤
@@AaronShafovaloff1 Hi Aaron. I don't believe Travis was seemingly humble, no. But that isn't the crux of the issue. Jesus would call pharisees who taught the doctrine of man rather than God "children of the devil." He would flip tables while doing it. The point isn't who is being nice in front of a camera, anyone would have an incentive to do that. The point is you are recording conversations trying to destroy the faith of members by acting respectful and caring while talking to them, and then calling them "arrogant and insolent" once you can't win a debate with them. That's why people see through the facade you've created.
If you really aren't teaching the doctrine of man rather than God, convince me in front of everyone why we should believe you when you tell us the canon is closed, and that God can no longer speak authoritatively?
Travis was disingenuous during this whole conversation. The LDS gospel he presents is internally contradictory and goes against what I was taught
25:40 "Any time you put God as the parent or whatever whatever," Travis said, and then claimed that portraying God as a parent is a problem.
GOD CALLS HIMSELF A FATHER!
Brooo these apologia guys really did snip out half of the conversation.
It's very obvious this is edited to make Travis look dumb. They don't show Travis approaching at all. A person doesn't just shut down and refuse to talk academically like this unless they have felt disrespected. I wouldn't be surprised if Aaron was honestly a jerk before the video started.
Beware a pastor who is dishonest with his following...
I mean, I watched the whole three hour conversation. It doesn't help.
The Nicene Creed of 325 A.D. explicitly affirms the Father as the "one God" and as the "Almighty," and Jesus Christ as "the Son of God," as "begotten of the essence of the Father." Therefore, Jesus is consubstantial with the Father, which means of the same substance as the Father... very God of very God. 😊😊😊
Which can't be found in the texts of the Bible.
1:15:54 maybe Travis will finally tell us what constitutes Lds doctrine definitively
1:16:45 guess not
1:19:26 can’t have a systematic theology because that would demand consistency within Lds church
1:22:50 Aaron articulated beautifully why Lds culturally / generally believes in a divine mother despite no canonicity and Travis says you haven’t articulated why
Aaron is controlling this discourse.... He doesn't want that at all. Travis obviously picked up on that fact.
@@LazarusSchell Why are you talking about yourself in the 3rd person, Travis? What's your end goal? To hide? To praise yourself?
I’m shocked they posted this
Well, they did edit out 1/3rd of the conversation.
I have learned so much from Aaron Shafovaloff
I have to my knowledge watched every single Apologia video that I can get my hands on and I don’t think I’ve ever seen Aaron before. He did an amazing job. I hope I can find more videos like this. Aaron is very respectful and patient. He obviously knows the gospel very well.
I also learned from Aaron. How to be totally depraved, and how to be an ignorant and condescending dirtbag
@@Eagle_Powershe has his own RUclips channel he is amazing. I wish he would post more. Search his name!
@@Eagle_Powers but he got obliterated by Kwaku El.
@@antimormon-px1eq all kwaku does is deflect and say “calvinism bad.” I don’t think anyone has ever been obliterated by Kwaku.
Is this the guy from the "Cavalry?"
Why does the video cut off mid conversation?
Aaron probably got toasted even worse off camera.
The conversation with Aaron and Travis ends there.
Travis starts talking to someone named Andrew and they spend a bunch of time yelling at each other.
Aaron is no longer involved.
It's crazy to have so much hubris that you can repeatedly call someone stupid over and over and still can say your not being confrontational
No one in the comments would be able to hold a conversation like this. It’s pretty evident in what they are commenting. Go read.
Hardly anyone can hold a conversation like that when they are continually being cut off and talked over.
Agreed, I know that my knowledge and patience isn't where it could be.
@@bryanpratt5850 Aaron is being talked over, because his garbage tactics are clear.... The comments and questions that he's making to the LDS guy are canned, considered and studied and prepared to make him look bad. Travis just doesn't let him get away with it. He's either dealt with this dishonesty before, or he truly has the spirit of discernment.
@@LazarusSchell what is the point of asking questions if you refuse to hear the answer?
@@bryanpratt5850Aaron keeps making false statements as the foundation of his answers and so instead of listening to a bunch of malarkey built upon a false pretense Travis just stops the argument.
48:48 Travis is refusing to exegete the text. He (Travis)makes assertions without evidence and then accusing Aaron of do the same. It is an apologetic trick. Get into the text and ascertain the meaning. 🤦🏻♂️
1:13:48 then Travis how do you ever know who to listen to or what to believe? How confusing.
Great Question! We are taught not just to rely on what the Leaders of the Church, But to get our own confirmation from God, IE through our own individual prayer and study of scripture.
This is Amazing!
I dont understand how you have the patience to talk with travis for 2+ hours. Keep up the good work
This guy is a piece of work.
He's a narcissist!
You clearly didn't listen to the conversation....
Yah, that was awesome. Travis schooled him.
@@LazarusSchell Travis didn’t say anything other than anything that has been taught and understood by members for the last 200 years is wrong and he understands why. Would’ve been great for all those members “following the prophet” to know their prophet was wrong about things as critical as grace and the Godhood. “Those are their opinions” ???? Not when they’re speaking from the pulpit as a prophet seer and revelator. Travis, knows this and yall know this.
Travis? No he’s not😅 He’s bored with the predictable tactics and set-up questions that these people plan out, with someone to take a video in a way to make Apologia appear in the best light.
LDS are used to all of this. All the time. Every day.
Travis is graceful enough to have a dialogue and listen to, what he already knows they are going to say.
“Apologia” is disingenuous. But of course they will post this to make them look pious and humble. But they make a religion out of tearing down the LDS Christian religion.
I would have genuinely wish these people a good day, and continued walking. Travis has more grace than I do. I’m so sick of the same old script, against LDS, all the time.
Arrogant or it you just crying that someone wouldn't let you lie about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
They turn into snowflakes when confronted by a knowledgeable Latter-Day Saint. Even when they control the editing.
33:00 where would he get the idea members believe what the prophet said because they’re lazy?! Travis, this is disingenuous and lazy to just throw out the obvious truth because it’s inconvenient.
It's evident that Aaron participated in this conversation out of love for Travis. Pearls before swine entered my mind early on into the conversation, but I want to commend Aaron for continuing the talk for just short of two hours. The result may not have been a changed heart in Travis, but hopefully a soul saved from the thousands who will watch this video. Thank you for your faithfulness in serving!
Yes. You can plainly see one is speaking out of love for his neighbor and the other really just wants to be right.
@@olivialouise3148that or Travis is sick and tired of Apologia making lazy arguments.
Dude, good luck with “saving” one person. If anything it gives members like me more knowledge and how to handle people like apologia.
Nothing but the same old tract every time.
Amen, these ministries have a larger impact than just in the moment.
I don't believe that verse applies in this situation because he is trying to win a soul back to Christ and why would you want someone to suffer eternally in hell for your willful ommission of the Gospel. Who cares if they don't hear it, it's our duty on this earth to spread the gospel of Christ.
I didn’t love Travis’ tone but he made really good arguments and asked good questions.
Man decided to watch a video of himself getting destroyed and decided to post it…🤧
How was Aaron “destroyed”?
Aaron isn't a member of the church or the group who posted this video.
Also, Travis came off looking horrible in this video with no solid foundation. He dismisses one of the LDS standard works, the Bible, with scorn. Nothing about this video makes Travis look good to anyone other than the kids in his exclusive Facebook group for only teen missionaries.
Aaron seemingly has never questioned his theological framework, where it came from, and why it should be accepted--all the while he criticizes LDS for putting theirs front and center. Now he is confronted with the reality that he has not laid a foundation to build his arguments on
Travis fucking wrecked him😹
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - - what is conveyed at about 28:00 regarding God becoming God? - - - God is eternal and can also transcend time. God has always been God, is God now, and will forever be God. In a transcendent time based context otherwise Jesus descendend into a mortal state that includes time as we exist in time. - - - God is otherwise without beginning of days or end of years amid an eternal context. Yet we’re given New Testament indications that Jesus “grew” in “wisdom and stature”. So God transcends both time and timelessness.
If you can, I'd recommend taking REL225C "Foundations of Restoration". I'm not saying what you're saying right now is wrong or anything, just that it's such a transformative experience that I'm going to shill it like this.
The original conversation was over 3 hours long. Why'd you cut out so much Aaron?
Also, Travis' approach to Gospel principles is very circumspect (which may inform or be informed by his background in Law and a previous period of time as an Athiest).
Generally-Speaking, when people talk and interact, there are a lot of assumptions going on that we don't even think about, so the value in taking a circumspect approach in the realm of God yields the fruits of a more profound and confidence-building result. (Takes stepping-stones to get to that point, so don't worry too much about it. God can and will work with you as you are.)
Aaron, you were so extremely patient with him. In spite of his confusion tactics, especially in the way of rapid-fire assumptive statements, I applaud you for maintaining focus and being clear in your communication.
The Only one with Tactics here was Aaron.... he admits he's had passed experiences with LDS people in the video. He finally met one who knows what he's talking about, and has actually studied.
@@LazarusSchell LOL @ you talking about yourself in the 3rd person as some great wealth of knowledge, Travis. Be honest with people.
@@LazarusSchell Again you are praising your own name with a burner account, Travis. Classy.
18:56 Forgiveness is a process not an event
21:37 This is why
22:23 It's not encouragement it's what inevitably happens as we live life
22:57 This is what Travis just said
23:50 stated again
25:43 this is why covenants are important
26:39 this
27:26 This. language changes over time
people change.
27:46 not a merit system. What?
28:32 King Follet is about the resurrection of a physical body
29:18 29:39 god did not literally write the Bible
30:09
32:13 what is this aurgument
32:25 they are using reasoning not theology.
33:07 Sometimes people just don't learn more about theology
34:53 Miscontext of the sermon
Read the whole thing. It's about the resurrection of a physical body. Adam and Eve were made in the image of God
35:55
36:19 The church is responsible
37:18 Read the whole sermon instead of cherry-picking
38:08 the common reading?
38:42 context is important
39:26 God entered a mortal experience the same as Jesus christ did. If we were to follow the Father and christ there would be no difference
40:57 yup
41:49 the father and the son were already god
Stopped watching after this
It seems aaron has limited
ability to reason.
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. God doesn't care it's 2024. You changed He hasn't and He doesn't care what our opinion is.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
@@MatthewRoderick-mg6zy 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
😂😂😂
We all know that Travis (burner account: @LazarusSchell) lies throughout this video, but a great example is at the 35:35 mark of this video. @LazarusSchell says that the King Follett discourse is an obscure passage. This is lie. Travis knows it's a lie. Yet he repeats the lie multiple times. What does the church says about what Travis is saying?
"There is no complete or verbatim record of what Joseph said, but several individuals took notes, making this one of Joseph’s best-recorded sermons. In the sermon, Joseph taught about divine nature and eternal progression. He countered the long-standing theological tradition that treated God as wholly different than humanity. He explained that “if men do not comprehend the character of God they do not comprehend themselves.”3 He taught that God “was once as one of us” and that “all the spirits that God ever sent into the world” were “susceptible of enlargement,” having the capacity to become like God in the eternities.4 Joseph also taught that a core part of each person is coeternal with God, comparing this divine core to a ring, without beginning or end."
- THE LDS CHURCH
How many lies can you spot in what Travis was presenting based on this text directly from the church's website?
How about Google AI?
"AI Overview
The King Follett Discourse, delivered by Joseph Smith on April 7, 1844 at a general conference in Nauvoo, Illinois, is considered one of his greatest sermons. The sermon included several important teachings, including:
Humanity's premortal existence: God was once human, and all spirits sent into the world have the potential to become like God in the eternities
Divine potential: People can become gods, and a core part of each person is coeternal with God
The nature of God: God is like a man, and the Father once lived on Earth as Jesus Christ does
The Joseph Smith Papers
Accounts of the “King Follett Sermon” - The Joseph Smith Papers
Joseph Smith gave an address on 7 April 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois, at a general conference...
The discourse also included the idea that people must learn how to make themselves gods. LDS Church president Lorenzo Snow later summarized some of the discourse's doctrines in a couplet that is often repeated in the church: "As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be".
Generative AI is experimental."
Travis is a liar and should be ignored by Christians and Mormons alike.
It's rather noteworthy that he has not responded to that particular claim despite the number of times you've challenged them. It's very much in-alignment with how Anderson instructs his Cavalry missionaries to not respond to questions regarding whether they are in the group, or whether Travis and/or someone else is helping them compose replies that they can copy-paste.
I didn't know that was a 'burner account". I don’t typically read comments.
Mr. Anderson keeps asking for 1 Scripture, from the Bible, that outright explains or says Trinity. Can he apply that same criteria to LDS beliefs of theTelestial kingdom, God was a man that became a God, pre-existence, temple marriage, using only the Bible?
I don’t think you mean “The Bible”. You could give Travis the entire standard works of the LDS church and he wouldn’t be able to do that. He keeps asking for Aaron to give him only one author in one book, so it’s much harder for him, since none of the LDS practices are ever laid out in the standard works, let alone by one author in one book.
The LDS position does not require things to be found “in the Bible” are you willing ignorant or incapable of critical thinking?
@@trent9297 Neither one. Also, I am no longer LDS because I actually read the Bible.
@@karenl7791 what denomination are you now.
@@trent9297 I am a non-denominational follower of Jesus. May I ask if you believe that one MUST belong to a certain denomination in order to be saved ?
If being informed and capable of defending his positions well equates to arrogance than Travis is very much so.
As difficult as this attempt at a civil discussion was with Mr. Anderson, it was very instructive. Thank you for posting this.
His arrogant attempts to control the discussion via interrupting, straw-manning, and provoking were extremely offputting.
I have NO idea why anyone would want to be in any church that produces members like this. If this is the fruit of Mormonism, I'll pass!
Mormons, I would simply ask you this: Is this the type of person that you want representing you and your church to outsiders?
Y'all just like Mormons to be nice and soft and To never push back or give you the same energy y'all have been giving us for decades. Travis is tired of seeing Apologia pouncing on unsuspecting members and playing gotcha games so he called them out on it just like Jesus called out the scribes and Pharisees.
@@jacobmayberry1126There's quite a span between being "nice and soft" and what we witnessed from Travis. I get the sense that we will see more and more of this kind of approach from LDS members. The era of the nice Mormon might be coming to an end and the era of the wild West Mormons is showing signs of resurfacing.
Do you want people like Jeff Durbin representing your church, whichever of the 46,000 different denominations of “traditional/historical Christianity“ is your church?
This video is just a mirror image of any “Jeff Durbin interviewing a ’Mormon’ on the street” video. Jeff constantly talks over and interrupts his interviewees.
And to those who think this LDS guy is arrogant? Pot meet kettle… there is none more arrogant than a Calvinist insisting that they have the correct exegesis of scripture and everyone else’s interpretation is esigesis.
@@WhatdoesthatReallymean-ps1kn I don't care for Durbin's approach at all but this guy Travis is extremely obnoxious and rude. Also, it isn't advisable to justify his behavior and attitude by pointing at others. I'm not a Calvinist btw so I'm not in disagreement with you on your conclusions, but I think we should all agree that Travis had the wrong spirit in this interaction.
His attitude isn't the only problem. He contradicts numerous former prophets of the LDS church. His handwaving of Eternal Progression is egregious
Who told this guy a person can't read, study and interpret what God has to say in his word..
Not an effective "apologist". He wants to argue for the authority of his LDS "apostles" but says "classic latter day saints' understanding is irrelevant". He is like those papalists who argue for the authority of the latest pope to totally contradict what has previously been authoritatively taught invoking papal authority. Mormonism is full of doctrinal and moral confusion because it denigrates the authority of God's word in the Bible.
The same way the Jews find what Peter said was irrelevant. Do believers following Peter in the first century not be updating their understanding of previous prophets. 😂😂😂
@@bambie1830 God is not a God of confusion. His prophets and apostles teach the same truth consistently, with no contradiction. Christ and the apostles fulfilled what Moses and the prophets taught, and the ending of temporary rituals and sacrifices of the old Law was done in testifying to the truth of their having been given by God as temporary ordinances pointing towards their fulfilment in Christ and the Church. So they are relevant, and part of God's consistent revelation. No doctrine or moral teaching is a contradicted.
If God is no author of confusion then why are there hundreds of different sects of christianity?@@anselman3156
@@anselman3156but the only reason you think they are consistent is you've interpreted them towards your conclusion to begin with. If the original author, if the original audience, and if no modern Divine authority came to that conclusion, we have no basis to assume it was the correct one. The Pharisees were master scriptorians, engaging in the very practice of combining scriptures to arrive at what, to them, was God's intended conclusion, and it left them "looking beyond the mark." It seems foolish to think that road would work this time.
As an honest follow up to this, if you believe God can wrest control of His messenger to perfectly speak forth His word, why take 3000+ years to assemble the message? Why not hand a completed work to Adam and tell him to get copying? This view of revelation doesn't seem to explain what you claim is God's actual behavior.
This guy wants to hold you to a ridiculous standard that simply doesn't apply to him for no articulated reason.
Aaron here. I am the guy on the left. To those LDS missionaries out there watching this: I pray for you and I want you do know the grace of Jesus that I encountered. I encourage you to read the Gospel of John and Romans with humility.
Perfect note to end end on. Always pray for those against you
What do you have to say to those who accuse you guys of editing the video down for dishonest ends?
@@nathanielwhitfield7933 The full 3 hour debate is available on Travis Andersons RUclips Channel 😁😁
@@nathanielwhitfield7933 Looks like Aaron may have deleted my previous comment. The Full 3 hour discussion is available on Travis Andersons account if anyone wants to see why it was cut.
Travis is disrespectful
@@aviatrix8183 If Travis was constantly positioning himself near your public places of worship, ambushing your congregants, and often blatantly/hypocritically misrepresenting your sincerely held religious beliefs, you might be visibly annoyed as well.
Man this was an exhausting conversation. I commend the guy trying to witness to the Mormon. I personally don’t know if I could mentally handle his behavior. God have mercy on his soul.
Only Travis is the one that totally understands what SWK was REALLY saying in his book ? Wow! That book totally made me realize how impossible the LDS gospel truly is.
It is interesting that some are saying that travis was not being Christ like. First of, for years these people would stand in front of our place of worship and tell us how we are worshinp the wrong Jesus and we are going to hell. They are comfortable doing so because lds people are kind, and this guy actually admits that on the video. So all of the sudden it is a surprise to see an lds person who is standing firm and know how to hold a conversation against their ideology. We worshipping the wrong Jesus and yet we are not acting Christ like, Which is it? You cannot expect us to be kind and Christ like when you already judge us to be going to hell and worshipping the wrong God. This conversation did not start with the attention to learn and inviting the holy Spirit. This was a debate. These people are there to confront lds people and tell them how wrong they are. Base on the content of this video and discussion im glad travis approach it the way he did.
I would counter with the LDS church telling those outside of it that we are the "church of the devil" (1 Nephi 14:10). Joseph Smith declared that every church is "corrupt" and "abominable" (Joseph Smith- History 1:19). Just remember that every non LDS church you drive and/or walk by, LDS scriptures declare that they are the church of the devil and are both corrupt and abominable. It was the founder of your religion that essentially fired the first shot, Biblical Christianity is just responding back to the claim with truth.
@@CarlLemings Why not quote the verses in context?? 1 Ne. 14:9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
And JS History 1:18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)-and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time.
So, are you admitting that the devil is the founder of your church?
Are you also admitting that you are a professor of corrupt creeds?
Aaron is clearly a better man than most, demonstrating patience and love where I know I wouldn’t be able to.
Agreed
Arron is clearly ignorant of biblical teachings, history, culture, and doctrine.....
@@TysonExodia kwaku vs aaron LOL
@@LazarusSchell He is honest, gentle, and patient; unlike you, Travis.
@@LazarusSchelladd to the conversation. Choose a side and add help out. Don't speak out your ass
These guys depend on meeting Latter-Day Saints that are steeped in the niceness culture and avoid contention at all costs. It catches them off guard when they encounter knowledgeable members that are willing to stand on their hind legs.
If Travis believes in fallible LDS scripture, how can he trust any word it? Line upon line, precept upon precept, but there is zero foundation for it, why should he believe anything the LDS church says about anything.
There are biblical contradictions that cannot be mutually true at the same time but many Christians still believe it wholly. You can have fallible men and fallible books that still speak truth.
He can’t it’s just arbitrariness through and through
While there are critiques to be made about Travis' arguments, this is a bad take. The logical conclusion of your interpretation is to absolutely never trust anyone or anything ever because of possible errors. My boss is errant, therefore I shouldn't trust him, maybe I should even quit my job. My teacher is errant, therefore even though he has expertise in the field, I should avoid him because he may say something wrong every once in a great while. My parents aren't perfect, therefore I should disregard their parenting skills as wholly untrustworthy. Equivalent would be: scripture/leaders may contain/speak errors therefore there is absolutely nothing to trust within it/them. Travis clearly doesn't hold that extreme view. Fallible things can still be trusted.
@@joeydoe2573
In context, we’re not talking about bosses, parents, etc. In context, the comparison would be the fallible LDS vs the infallible Bible.
Because in lds theology the word of God is continually being received. Because we dont have a static text to rely upon we dont have to force it to be infallible to stand on it.
Newer believer here. I’m only an hour into this video but the line of questioning I hope Aaron gets to is “what is your standard of truth?” If there is no one standard of truth by which to test everything, how can we know what is true? Travis doesn’t seem to believe anything is inerrant, not the Bible or even the Mormon prophets. So, why does he believe what he believes? And why would his personal belief be correct above anyone else’s belief? This conversation reminds me of John 8:47. I hope we all will pray for Travis, and that the Lord reveals the truth to him.
I agree that a spiritually objective standart is required, I even believe the Bible teaches such a standart, but it excludes the bible itself from being that standart, because even if the Bible were inerrant, peoples hearts and minds prove not to be, and so it wouldnt even make sense to have the bible be inerrant.
How to know spiritual truth goes much deeper than that and should not stop at ones interpretation of the bible.
@ I think understand what you’re saying…So, from your perspective how can someone come to know truth?
@@Jackyk12 I believe two things are most vital, first, to truly care about context. We need to interpret the Bible the way it was meant when it was written down, and best way to get that context is to engage with scholars of the Bible that prove to place the data above the dogma.
This has helped me greatly to love and embrace the Bible much more, because suddenly many things started to make sense. Being honest and authentic about what the texts of the bible and the data present to us really is key.
Second, Paul was very clear that neitherr faith, works, nor the knowing of all of Gods mysteries (including getting every doctrine correct) means that we actually "know God", because he points out that even if people have all these things, but lack charity, its all of no value.
Thousands of people read the Bible and yet still have different outcomes of believes. Thousands of people have been born again, have spiritual experiences and yet still have different interpretations and understandings of doctrines.
So mayby there is greater purpose behind it, mayby because getting every doctrine right is not what equals finding truth.
Jesus thaught that in the last days we are to discern truth from deception by its fruits. Pauls makes clear these fruits do not refere to faith, works, knowing all mysteries or miracles being brought forth. Instead we learn that those to are in posession of charity, know God (1 John 4:8), and those that know God in that manner, have eternal life (John 17:3).
In other words, the only thing we can know for sure is whether we, ourselves, are transformed towards charity. Whatever leads to that transformations taking place, is of God,.
And thats why doctrines, no matter how inerrant, are not above all relevant if that is not the outcome,. And that is why even if things are imperfect, but do have that outcome, it leads to eternal life.
So combine the two, the academia, the context, the data, but understand that spiritual truth doesnt need more than transforming people towards becoming charity.
A great example in the scriptures for that is the parable of the good Samaritan. Though he was pagan, worshiping God in false ways, not having faith, Jesus still considered him to be "good", merely because of him bringing forth mercy and charity from a pure heart.
Not sure that makes sense, but that way I have been able to see God work on a much larger skale.
@@SimonDaumMusic James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
@@SimonDaumMusic James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
The Mormon guy has a nasty habit of equivocating when convenient and obfuscating by over complication when convenient. That’s really disappointing to see from someone who wants to be taken seriously
I don't care about being "taken seriously".
Every time they speak, they testify against the scriptures they claim to get authority from. LDS can claim the same authority. They have a Bible, and they interpret it. lol
This guy is horrrrible to speak with! WOW.
He’s not rude or pugnacious. He is just prioritizing the advancement of the discussion. Shavafalov doesn’t have thick enough skin to handle it
He is a snowflake.
Travis cooked y’all, I feel bad for apologia, hopefully Aaron finds the truth soon.
After watching this video, why would anyone want to align themselves with Travis? He has a foundation of nothing. He only applies logic one direction and scorns the Bible.
Tell me this, can you or Travis tell me how to be saved using the LDS plan of salvation, but only somewhere in the standard works and only by the same author in the same book? Travis was requesting this of Aaron throughout the conversation, so it should be easy.
@@trex5828 Why would I have to do that?
@@LatterDayDebate you'll have to ask Travis that question. Did you even watch the video?
@@trex5828 sorry but your question makes no sense to ask to a Latter Day Saint. We don’t hold to sola scriptura. Do you understand the LDS faith at all?
@@LatterDayDebate
I get it. You are trying to be a Travis clone. However, if you want to debate, you should read and understand my questions. I didn't say anywhere that you should find the answer in one book of the Bible. I said, "Tell me where I can find the answer of how to be saved anywhere in LDS standard works." But according to Travis, it needs to be one author in the same book. It can't be doctrine that's gathered from multiple sources.
That being said, since you show nothing but contempt for your own standard works, go ahead and link any current LDS seer and revelator (since past apostles are all now heretics like Kimball or McConkie) who gave a singular talk or wrote a singular book or even ensign article that lays out every step on how to be saved according to the LDS.
But remember, according to your spiritual father Travis, it can't be more than one person, and it can't be in more than one book or talk.
I'm waiting with bated breath.
I shared the gospel with a couple Mormons and they brought Travis in after a couple meetings. Glad someone else had the opportunity to witness Christ to him! Good reminder to be praying for him, thank you Apologia! Travis was also claiming James White was ducking someone.. curious if y’all helped set up a debate
Travis lies about a lot of things. JW does not owe anyone a debate.
37:00 Travis cooked yall hahaha
Ive never seen such an aggressive mormon
That's because most members of the church are not able to argue with people like Aaron. That's because Aaron is a deceptionist. Maybe he doesn't realize it. I don't know. But he's not interested in learning. Travis was trying to explain where Aaron is wrong (and he wrong everywhere). Nobody wants to hear Aaron's lies (out at least his egregious misunderstandings) and if he's not willing to hear where he is foundationally incorrect, I am not interested in hearing what he wants to babble.
@@jimconner3105 Basically Travis' position includes a strong belief that the Bible is pretty useless and that only scholars who can read the ancient languages are capable of understanding it. From his position, there is nothing that is reliable except for LDS prophets, and when they are wrong they are speaking as men, not prophets. "You would have to have a subsequent revelator, a seer, to understand those texts". This is the foundation of cults - distrust the accepted scriptures and put your faith in the charismatic man instead. I wish my LDS brothers could understand how they are being deceived. Members look for anything even remotely plausible to satisfy the contradictions. For example, not caring that the Book of Abraham is a fictitious translation of scrolls, or that that Book of Mormon does not tell a true history.
Sometimes we need to step up. Good on you Travis for teaching Aaron.
@@kobidoggy7575 What do you suppose Travis taught Aaron?
@@kobidoggy7575Travis didn't teach Aaron anything at all,. Only how to be defensive and a pure idiot.
Travis, to throw out a statement because its status has changed over time doesn’t bode well for last conferences talks or claims made by current leaders.
As a member of the LDS faith I do not condone the conduct or tone, in which Travis spoke to Aaron. I think he's argumentative and is unwilling at times to listen to Aaron. I believe there is more common ground to be shared by LDS disciples and those of the Protestant faith, than simply tearing one another down all the time. That being said, when Protestants/Calvinists/Evangelicals come to the streets of Provo Utah, an knowingly stand ajacent to one of our temples in anattempt to talk with as many Mormons as possible (like at our Conferences in SLC), and claims to want to have a heartfelt discussion about our church teachings, it is not in good faith and is very decieptful in my opinion. It's antagonistic in nature and done in attempt to "scatter the flock" by misrepresenting false narratives and doctrines. So I somewhat understand the combative interaction by Travis. He's defending the flock to some degree.
Matt 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
If Jesus himself said to go and tell, you lived near Provo, and felt that the Mormon church was actively leading people away from God, don’t you think that you would feel an obligation to speak with them? As J. Reuben Clark said, “If we have truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not truth, it ought to be harmed." There is nothing to be lost by having discussions on a public street corner. It’s good for everyone involved.
Thank you for being honest and for considering both sides of this conversation.
Travis misrepresented the LDS gospel multiple times in this video
Travis won...... most annoying, most interrupting, most antagonistic, most deflecting....if he is going to reject scripture, shut down points being made before they are finished and only accept his own opinion.... it is impossible to lose, but he has disqualified himself from actually winning anything. He might as well put his fingers in his ears and mumble incoherently.
🏆
Yep
You got eviscerated, mainly because you have no clue as to your own interpretive lens.
I've never seen such a rude and arrogant LDS "apologist"! Sad. Thank you, Aaron and Apologia Church, for your ministry! God bless y'all.