Intense Conversation with a Mormon Internet Apologist
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Aaron Shafovaloff gets into an Intense Conversation with a Mormon Internet Apologist named Travis Anderson.
We pray that this conversation will show you the difference between humility and pride. Please pray that the Lord pours out His grace on Travis.
We ended the conversation when Aaron stated that this is becoming pearls before swine.
Here is Aaron's RUclips channel:
/ aaronshaf2006
Travis laid out a great explanation of LDS theology and how dishonest the gotcha questions are that are used in Apologia's street interviews. His style may turn some people off, but that doesn't negate that he theologically dismantled every false premise, doctrine, and assumption one by one. Aaron was patient and kind, but he still refused to have an honest discussion when Travis pointed to falsities about Mormon theology that he had been spreading. That's the problem with these type of discussions - the evangelical street preacher comes in with the premise that everything he believes is correct and what he "thinks" he knows about LDS theology is correct. When presented with an LDS apologist with a deep knowledge, evangelical street preachers never listen and continue to use the same tired mormon tropes that have been debunked many times before. LDS theology is basically Christianity-explained. I don't understand why evangelical pastors purposefully distort LDS theology and attack latter-day saints. Its just sad.
Yeah no. Hes just machine gunning instead of understanding aaron. The lds church is not christ church.
@@Aaron-SLCno Aaron has no idea what actually is lds doctrine. All these apologia guys are like 40 years behind. It’s actually embarrassing. The Mormons that leave don’t leave from evangelicals. Yall have no idea why people leave.
I love how Travis is holding Aaron accountable to his words. I love Aaron’s kindness. A Mormon that goes on the offensive… I don’t have any problem with it.
No travis is just arrogant. If aaron was acting the same way even though i might agree with his premise id have to accept aaron argued poorly
Bro you got bodied by this guy. Calling someone arrogant doesn’t mean you automatically win
The Mormon guy is clearly in error. The Bible is the best anti Mormon literature ever. Mormons are blasphemy in the highest degree……as a Jewish man I can say that no other cult has harmed the Jewish people like this cult. Hitler wasn’t as blasphemous to the Jewish people as Mormons are. Hell bound people
@@upstandersupernova what’s your position for Mormons ?
@@upstandersupernova I don’t hate them, I just hate what they have done to our savior, they strip him of his deity, they steal his priesthood that belongs to him and him alone , they make him out to be a psychopath in the Book of Mormon.
@@jamesrexsannatracy8318 I've never heard anyone say that before. People usually just say they have the wrong Jesus.
I can't imagine how anyone would make Jesus look like a psychopath. Paul maybe, but not Jesus. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who believes Paul was a murdering, schizophrenic psychopath. I'm mean he was. Well, before he fell off the horse he was a murdering psychopath, but wasn't after he fell off the horse; he was just schizophrenic after that.
I'm just kidding. I love the story about Paul becoming an apostle.
He’s not your Savior. Why make it possessive?
Travis is by far the smartest person in this discussion; Aaron is the nicest.
A conversation like this with Aaron well over a decade ago was instrumental in my eventual coming to Christ after I left Mormonism in 2020. I’ll pray for Travis that eventually the Holy Spirit will reach him and he will recognize his sin and error, repent, and turn to Christ.
That’s wonderful!! Welcome to the body of Christ!
I’m still praying for my mil and other members of my husbands family.
@@austinnajar with 46,000 Protestant denominations and counting, how is it even possible that one can have the correct understanding of the proper method of worshipping and following Jesus Christ? How can such a high number of Protestant denominations, all with varying beliefs be anything other than creating God in one's own image, or worshipping God according to one's own preferences?
@@Hol0gr4m well first, that number is heavily inflated and comes about from really poor methodology. I would do more research before you continue to parrot that number. The reality is there’s basically 8 Protestant denominations. And all of them agree on the essentials of the faith and Gospel. The differences are all in secondary issues that have no bearing on salvation.
@@austinnajar what is the authority which determines what is and is not a salvific issue? If the answer is the Bible Alone, even if the number was 8 denominations (which it isn't), that would still be a very unreliable authority.
@@Hol0gr4m it is the Bible. The Bible is clear on a number of issues that are salvific: monotheism (including the Trinity), Jesus’ dual nature, penal substitution, salvation by grace through faith, the bodily resurrection of Jesus.
To reject any of those doctrines is to not be a Christian. But there are plenty of other doctrines we can disagree on amicably and still be part of the church. Infant or believers baptism, continuation or cessation of sign gifts of the Spirit, church governance structures, etc.
A perfect example of someone listening just to respond rather than listening to learn.
That usually goes both ways in a religious debate. That isn't news or surprising. ❤
"Christian" Doctrine is so full of contradictions when you study it.... how can you build on such a thing. The LDS guy clearly understands their perspective, and doesn't care for it. Perhaps that's why so many are leaving their faiths?
@@LazarusSchell
You made a claim, now back it up! Show me where “Christian doctrine” is contradictory. It should be easy since you are so confident.
@@levibaer18trinity...sola scriptura...faith alone...baptism needed or not?...etc
@@whiteknight557
Keep digging! Lol. Show me where any of those statements are contradictory in the Bible.
I keep thinking about Proverbs it says "you answers before listening, that is his folly and shame." this guy speaks before sentences formed almost every single time. I think I would've walked away and told him he's got atrocious manners, and that he should go home and read his Bible.
Really appreciate how the brother slowed down the conversation. Thank you for modeling how to do this. I take notes and go out when I can. Many Mormons at my school. May the Lord bless you and continue to grow Apologia ministries.
Hopefully they aren’t as arrogant as this guy…good luck . They do need prayer and told about the truth,way to look out for your classmates…cool
You should actually learn LDS doctrine from them... Not from dishonest people like Aaron.
@@LazarusSchell I have studied Mormonism for more than 2000 hours on my own. It’s false , blasphemous and untrue. It’s so satanic that it’s absolutely disgusting……don’t tell me to understand what I already understand…I’m a very educated person. Especially when it comes to false religious cults
Yeah definitely take notes from aaron, that way you can get schooled as well
@@wilfordthe4th422 Is every Mormon a 10th grade boy?
I dont understand how you have the patience to talk with travis for 2+ hours. Keep up the good work
It's evident that Aaron participated in this conversation out of love for Travis. Pearls before swine entered my mind early on into the conversation, but I want to commend Aaron for continuing the talk for just short of two hours. The result may not have been a changed heart in Travis, but hopefully a soul saved from the thousands who will watch this video. Thank you for your faithfulness in serving!
Yes. You can plainly see one is speaking out of love for his neighbor and the other really just wants to be right.
@@olivialouise3148that or Travis is sick and tired of Apologia making lazy arguments.
Dude, good luck with “saving” one person. If anything it gives members like me more knowledge and how to handle people like apologia.
Nothing but the same old tract every time.
Amen, these ministries have a larger impact than just in the moment.
I don't believe that verse applies in this situation because he is trying to win a soul back to Christ and why would you want someone to suffer eternally in hell for your willful ommission of the Gospel. Who cares if they don't hear it, it's our duty on this earth to spread the gospel of Christ.
Aaron, great job I hear your heart, he clearly wouldn't receive it. I pray for the mustard seeds to grow!
Actually, I want to thank Apologia for posting this. It takes a lot of bravery to post a video of yourself getting owned
Marc, at best you can say that no one was “owned”. At worst, Travis nullified every argument he had in any belief by admitting to his belief that all scripture is fallible. He presumed to be smarter than everyone around him by rejecting infallibility.
This was pure reactionary rhetoric on Travis’s part. I think he shot himself in the foot by telling Aaron, “You think this conservation is going to be productive?” after Aaron kindly suggested to tone it down a bit. Half the time he never even let him finish a sentence. You can win the argument by never running out of things to say but lose the person completely.
I prefer the complete version that was a little over 3 hours long. Aaron cut out the best (worst) bits.
This guy did a great job keeping his composure, defusing the situation multiple times, using the opponent's terminology/language (such as Heavenly Father), & overall just staying focused on topic. Travis tried several times to shift the goal post, interrupt, gaslight, railroad his opponent, committed several fallacies, & was very quick to speak but slow to listen. Only insecure people need to belittle and talk over. Bro literally asked "source?" almost every sentence that came out of the other dudes mouth. He also had several contradictory statements the entire time throughout the conversation. Honestly sad to see how unintellectual he is. Most these comments saying the guy in black got "cooked" i guarantee were sent by the people from Travis' missionary group discussion just to hype him up. He's gotten cooked several times by EO apologists & doesn't even know basic theology. This is demonstrated & seen in the video by him not being able to distinguish the distinction between justification from sanctification. Remember folks, the LDS church comes out of the 1800 restoration movement known as the Stone-Campbell-Scott movement, just roughly a timeline of 200 years ago (Literally known for "restoring" the gospel in its fullness). The guy in the black did amazing & was so patient in a situation that most would have gotten frustrated in or let this get them under their skin. This was executed very well. May Travis repent from his false gospel & church beliefs, truly.
Irrespective of how we, the viewers may feel about this encounter - I think it's appropriate as Christians to encourage one another to be regularly praying for Travis.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves to be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even the tax collectors, do they not do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Even the Gentiles, do they not do the same? - Mt 5:43-47
A good perspective
@MormonMyths1830 Why didn’t you include the final completing thought to this scriptural theme of unconditional love with Jesus’ command to his followers:
5:48…. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
@WhatdoesthatReallymean-ps1kn my perfection is in Christ Jesus. Not only did he atone for my sins but his righteousness is inputed to those that believe on his name.
@WhatdoesthatReallymean-ps1kn by perfect- we mean complete and/or mature and whole- perfect. Not in appearance or puffing up. Again, we don't have to speak greek or hebrew we have many translations that actually help us to understand the origin and meaning. Get a Strongs Concordance or use Google for good.
Don't worry about praying for Travis...pray for yourself and your posterity
Only Travis is the one that totally understands what SWK was REALLY saying in his book ? Wow! That book totally made me realize how impossible the LDS gospel truly is.
Aaron here. I am the guy on the left. To those LDS missionaries out there watching this: I pray for you and I want you do know the grace of Jesus that I encountered. I encourage you to read the Gospel of John and Romans with humility.
Perfect note to end end on. Always pray for those against you
What do you have to say to those who accuse you guys of editing the video down for dishonest ends?
@@nathanielwhitfield7933 The full 3 hour debate is available on Travis Andersons RUclips Channel 😁😁
@@nathanielwhitfield7933 Looks like Aaron may have deleted my previous comment. The Full 3 hour discussion is available on Travis Andersons account if anyone wants to see why it was cut.
Travis is disrespectful
@@aviatrix8183 If Travis was constantly positioning himself near your public places of worship, ambushing your congregants, and often blatantly/hypocritically misrepresenting your sincerely held religious beliefs, you might be visibly annoyed as well.
Apologia really took an L on this one.
Christ gets the W.
Is Aaron at Apologia or Gospel Hope? Or do you know?
Amen.
@@AaronShafovaloff1Certainly. But you were out classed badly here.
So, when you take an L, Christ gets a W? That’s a bold strategy
As an exmormon with an online presence exposing their false doctrines I was recommended to watch this (from a believing Mormon) as she said Travis would “mop the floor with me.” As I watch this I am appalled anyone would accept his explanations and believe he soundly analyzes the history and teachings of the church. The lady going back & forth with me who loves Travis uses vocabulary and terms just like him in “defining doctrine” and downplaying any question as “presupposition.” It’s as if she admires and quotes him more than their actual prophet, which is terrifying. I am so impressed with Aaron’s composure and patience, love that he finally said pearls before swine at the end too!
You should debate him then
@@jacobmayberry1126 it would be completely useless, with his superiority complex he won’t even agree to any common ground.
Amen sister in Christ. God bless you. Praying more mormons can see the light as you have.
The "common ground" must be what facts and reality can allow us to agree upon. It can't be your theological presuppositions which color how you read the Biblical texts.
@@TA-jb4ke lol, he wouldn’t even agree God is Holy and he argued the church’s teachings about God have been consistent even from Adam God to now. There is zero Christian foundation on which to dispute disagreements with someone with a superiority complex who thinks anything the opponent says is incompetent.
As difficult as this attempt at a civil discussion was with Mr. Anderson, it was very instructive. Thank you for posting this.
His arrogant attempts to control the discussion via interrupting, straw-manning, and provoking were extremely offputting.
I have NO idea why anyone would want to be in any church that produces members like this. If this is the fruit of Mormonism, I'll pass!
Mormons, I would simply ask you this: Is this the type of person that you want representing you and your church to outsiders?
Y'all just like Mormons to be nice and soft and To never push back or give you the same energy y'all have been giving us for decades. Travis is tired of seeing Apologia pouncing on unsuspecting members and playing gotcha games so he called them out on it just like Jesus called out the scribes and Pharisees.
@@jacobmayberry1126There's quite a span between being "nice and soft" and what we witnessed from Travis. I get the sense that we will see more and more of this kind of approach from LDS members. The era of the nice Mormon might be coming to an end and the era of the wild West Mormons is showing signs of resurfacing.
Do you want people like Jeff Durbin representing your church, whichever of the 46,000 different denominations of “traditional/historical Christianity“ is your church?
This video is just a mirror image of any “Jeff Durbin interviewing a ’Mormon’ on the street” video. Jeff constantly talks over and interrupts his interviewees.
And to those who think this LDS guy is arrogant? Pot meet kettle… there is none more arrogant than a Calvinist insisting that they have the correct exegesis of scripture and everyone else’s interpretation is esigesis.
@@WhatdoesthatReallymean-ps1kn I don't care for Durbin's approach at all but this guy Travis is extremely obnoxious and rude. Also, it isn't advisable to justify his behavior and attitude by pointing at others. I'm not a Calvinist btw so I'm not in disagreement with you on your conclusions, but I think we should all agree that Travis had the wrong spirit in this interaction.
His attitude isn't the only problem. He contradicts numerous former prophets of the LDS church. His handwaving of Eternal Progression is egregious
“Adam-God?” Oh thank you Aaron it was worth watching this far to see that conundrum you brought to light so beautifully. Sad that “people on the street” according to Travis cannot possibly understand because they aren’t as smart as him but Jesus taught children and the gospel is beautifully simple. 1:13:08
20 min in Aaron realized he is getting schooled and cannot compete with the intellectual superiority of Travis so he knows the only way this video will be successful is by trying to depict Travis as an “arrogant” and rude person and he is so patient and Christlike. Aaron knows Travis entirely dismantled his theology and the way he approaches Mormons.
Aaron, I’m LDS and in some ways share your perspective. It’s true that your beliefs of the church were one time accurate but I can tell you from the inside, members don’t believe the 1980’s Mormonism you know. Every aspect of the faith has transitioned in one way or another. It is mind boggling but what it is.
Aaron didn’t write this title. He doesn’t even go to Apologia lol.
Travis didn’t say anything other than anything that has been taught and understood by members for the last 200 years is wrong and he understands why. Would’ve been great for all those members “following the prophet” to know their prophet was wrong about things as critical as grace and the Godhood. “Those are their opinions” ???? Not when they’re speaking from the pulpit as a prophet seer and revelator. Travis, knows this and yall know this.
Aaron didn’t present Travis as anything. Travis is arrogant and rude on his own. By your fruits ye shall know them, right? Or does it not apply when it makes you look bad?
I appreciated this conversation. Aaron was very patient. I also appreciated Travis and how he articulated his view. I really wished though he would of let Aaron finish his thoughts. Big takeaway was the example of Aaron and how patient and kind we all need to be and show respect and listen to one another. Thanks
Travis argues like Matt Dillahunty does, in the context of "atheism vs christianity" . It sounds like Travis is saying you can't know anything about anything, so idk how he knows anything about what LDS theology is. I'm sure he's going to come in here and tell me how dumb I am lol xD
Like most Mormons now - he knows nothing around non Mormons then everything when around his own kind.
May I present something along the lines of this. For protestants like Apologia, what is the foundational epistemeology for their beliefs? The answer is found in the doctrine of sola scriptura. This presents an immediate problem, as this doctrine is self defeating in the following manner. Sola scriptura teaches that the sole infallible rule of faith is the 66 biblical texts of what are commonly called the old and new testaments. These are to contain all knowledge that is necessary for salvation and religious life, to paraphrase. If you feel I have mischaracterized, feel free to say so.
Here's the problem. Not one of those texts identifies a complete or closed canon, much less the 66 texts. Therefore, identifying what is "The Bible" must come from an outside source, as is undeniable historically, add the idea of "the Bible" is anachronistic to any of the times of the texts, and something that arose in process centuries after Christ's death.
Therefore, arriving at the "sole, infallible rule of faith" requires priviliging some source de facto at the same or higher level compared to the texts of the Bible, a flar contradiction of X (the doctrine of Sola Scriptura), and not X, the required support to reach there.
This is a fundamental problem underlying this conversation, and why Apologia gets nowhere in my view, among other things. Religious criteria for knowledge inherently involves choice and decision, which there really isn't any way around. What do you think?
@@ProbeScout I think is argument is more worn out than a bald tire.
Sola Scriptura works perfectly well as a tradition. The canon is delivered by the Prophets and Apostles as they wrote it and as it was recieved by the church. There was, historically, very little debate about most of the books.
What should we have as an authority higher than God's Word?
@yellowblackbird9000 There was actually quite a bit of disagreement over different books, including the likes of Revelation (which is in the Protestant canon), the Shepherd of Hermas which is not, using the Acts of Peter vs the Epistles of Peter, whether what we call the old Testament should be used at all, and much more. More fundamentally, who gets to make that call? That is the question at hand.
As far as what should have more authority then scripture, the answer is quite simple. God.
@Ekklesia24 That was pretty underwhelming if you were trying to prove substantial disagreement on most of the canon. I am unaware of any orthodox Christians who wanted to ditch the entire Old Testament.
God should have more authority than His own Word? How does that work?
Aaron is clearly a better man than most, demonstrating patience and love where I know I wouldn’t be able to.
Agreed
Arron is clearly ignorant of biblical teachings, history, culture, and doctrine.....
@@TysonExodia kwaku vs aaron LOL
@@LazarusSchell He is honest, gentle, and patient; unlike you, Travis.
@@LazarusSchelladd to the conversation. Choose a side and add help out. Don't speak out your ass
The Christian was so patient and respectful....some fruits of the spirit for sure!
Yeah Travis is way patient in this
@@jackdruyon7338 oh my! Is that what you think respectful looks like? I'm worried for you.
@@graceupongrace2639respectful is not straw manning someone's position. respectful is not beginning your answers with false statements. You're right Travis did not allow Aaron to make his false claims, is that disrespectful?
@@jackdruyon7338 Travis isn't a Christian...
@@whiteknight557 Travis has even said that his goal was to distract Christians from sharing the gospel with mormons and that he lost his temper, so he even knows he wasn't respectful. It's sad to see so many Mormons blatantly suppress the truth in unrighteousness. It would be easier to stop kicking against the goads =)
You can learn a lot by demeanor in this conversation. Basically, Travis disqualifies any explanation given, generally before the statement is ever complete. He interrupts, he refuses to let scripture be quoted unless it is a single verse, etc. I was LDS and a missionary. We memorized verses from the Bible to support LDS beliefs. Most faithful LDS members who want to have a discussion like this at the very least would allow the other person to speak. Travis quotes little if any scripture and is intellectually dishonest about the consistency with which the LDS church leaders have described who God/Jesus are. The 1835 LDS former canon of the Lectures on Faith described Jesus and Heavenly father of being beings, Jesus with a body, the father being only spirit. Smith also described the Holy Spirit as being nothing more than the mindset between the two, not another god as the LDS church teaches today.
Travis shuts down the arguments by interruption and he generally nullifies the authority of the Bible. When the Mormon explains that the Jews were polytheists he interrupts the Christian's explanation that their polytheism was something that God rebuked them for believing. That's pretty much the way the whole discussion goes. The Mormon is very controlling, very weak.
If you left you the LDS church to become an evangelical you have the mental capacity of a gerbil
@moronibaloney6888
Apparently by acknowledging the hard work in which a person must engage to understand an ancient document from a foreign culture and language, you are discounting said documents being important.
@@TA-jb4ke I think you have that backwards. Travis is the one who makes the claim that the scriptures are esoteric and therefore their English translations are unreliable. I believe in the scholarly work in terms of translating the ancient scriptures to modern languages. Travis sees these things through LDS viewpoints and his belief in the leadership declaring what the "true meaning" of the scriptures are.
Joseph Smith proved one thing very well: he couldn't translate ancient languages into English. Joseph Smith didn't provide for source documentation for the Book of Mormon, but the scrolls that he claimed to translate for the Pearl of Great Price show that Joseph just made up his own pseudo scripture.
@moronibaloney6888
I don't see "these things" through an LDS perspective. I am making a historical argument. The Jews in the 1st century, according to "Christians", had misinterpreted their own texts. Jesus seems to have related their failures to rejecting the "prophets that were sent", just as Aaron and you have done today. Regardless of whether Joseph Smith was a prophet or not, Sola Scriptura is not a concept identified in the Biblical texts and as James White stated, can't be during periods of special revelation. Aaron is attempting to advance his own interpretation based on some intrinsic authority of ancient texts without first supporting that claim.
I hope hope hope to have gracious patience Aaron has to someone as obstinate as Travis.
Really good example of difficult conversations you may run into while evangelizing! Really enjoyed this even though it was frustrating at parts (as I'm sure it was for Aaron!).
Did this guy just say being born again is a "silly experience"? A burning in the bosom is not?
He doesn't have a burning in the bosom, he understands most religious experiences are just emotions.
What are you talking about
I wonder if Travis has friends. Imagine being Travis’s manager.
Aaron, you were so extremely patient with him. In spite of his confusion tactics, especially in the way of rapid-fire assumptive statements, I applaud you for maintaining focus and being clear in your communication.
The Only one with Tactics here was Aaron.... he admits he's had passed experiences with LDS people in the video. He finally met one who knows what he's talking about, and has actually studied.
@@LazarusSchell LOL @ you talking about yourself in the 3rd person as some great wealth of knowledge, Travis. Be honest with people.
@@LazarusSchell Again you are praising your own name with a burner account, Travis. Classy.
I have learned so much from Aaron Shafovaloff
I have to my knowledge watched every single Apologia video that I can get my hands on and I don’t think I’ve ever seen Aaron before. He did an amazing job. I hope I can find more videos like this. Aaron is very respectful and patient. He obviously knows the gospel very well.
I also learned from Aaron. How to be totally depraved, and how to be an ignorant and condescending dirtbag
@@Eagle_Powershe has his own RUclips channel he is amazing. I wish he would post more. Search his name!
@@Eagle_Powers but he got obliterated by Kwaku El.
@@antimormon-px1eq all kwaku does is deflect and say “calvinism bad.” I don’t think anyone has ever been obliterated by Kwaku.
I think I interacted with Travis ten years ago on Facebook. Seeing this video explains so, so much.
Change title to “protestant gets owned by mormon”
I am so sorry you perceive this interview that way… this is the epitome of pride, arrogance and projection in defense of false doctrines and false prophets.
Haha honestly. He did get owned
Mormon literally said nothing. I wouldn't even consider him a Mormon as he said multiple times he doesn't even agree with them. Saying you don't agree woth something or using your personal beliefs to define your answer and religion is not an argument it's hubris at best.
If you know where to look, you can find the 3 hour version that includes all the little goodies that Aaron cut out because it made him look too bad. Travis' "I've been patiently enduring evil for 3 hours" was hilarious to me.
@@Karli_searches_and_praysno it’s objective in this case.
This Mormon apologist is impossible. He is dishonest about the LDS faith and the Christian faith. Might possibly be the proudest person I’ve ever seen.
He's not dishonest.... It actually appears the he knows what he's talking about finally.... Aaron is upset that his canned tactics didn't work. Apparently this guy has faced the likes of so-called Christian ministers before. The whole purpose of Aaron's supposed ministry is to gain popularity by poisoning the public mind against the LDS perspective of Christianity. All I saw was someone not taking it laying down this time.
Nah i was lds. Hes right. The lds church makes stuff as it goes
This man has a lot of pride..
Aaron? Yeah, he does…he considers Anne Frank as someone who burns in Hell. He’s also Calvinist soooo
@@therisingknighttruewarrior4551
I know you’re blinded by your LDS dogma, but clearly there was Aaron who exhumed patience and humbleness and then there was Travis who was pompous.
This Travis character is really hyped up. He should learn the art of not interrupting so much. I pray he eventually calms his spirit with Jesus.
This is by design though on his part, he’s just trying to throw Aaron off by interrupting his thought process.
This video is just a mirror image of any “Jeff Durbin interviewing a ’Mormon’ on the street” video. Jeff constantly talks over and interrupts his interviewees.
And to those who think this LDS guy is arrogant? Pot meet kettle… there is none more arrogant than a Calvinist insisting that they have the correct exegesis of scripture and everyone else’s interpretation is esigesis.
@@TysonExodia Yes.... He is indeed trying exactly that.... It's because Aaron is a liar. Aaron has all sorts of "Encounters with LDS people by his own admission, and has a whole rhetoric prepared for standard LDS answers to his questions... Which are designed to make them appear ignorant of their faith and thus wrong. Travis rightly throws him off by not letting his crap get through. Smart guy, and definitely has the power of Discernment on his side.
@@LazarusSchell Just an FYI to everyone. This is one of Travis' many burner accounts talking himself up.
Travis is straight up intellectually dishonest here at many points. The King Follett conversation is a prime example.
Could you explain please I'm just curious what you mean. Thanks.
@@joeydoe2573 the king Follett discourse is far from being some “obscure” sermon as Travis posits. It is highly quoted, well known and is the root of multiple mormon beliefs. It is likely one of the two most famous of Smiths sermons. Its theology is reflected recently and currently in gospel doctrine manuals and the hymn book e.g. “if you could hie to Kolob”
@@jenessem9276actually Travis is spot on. From an LDS member perspective over 30 years, it’s more those outside the faith that are obsessed with the discourse. It’s rarely mentioned in our circles. Travis was actually very spot on and articulated very well most members position.
@@scottwedge413 I have 30 years to my name too, so I guess wherever you live is different. You’ve never sung “if you could hie to kolob”? The sermon may not be mentioned by name but its effects are endemic.
@@joeydoe2573 RUclips won't let me share links, but there's an article by Gerald Lund in the February 1982 issue of the Ensign magazine that directly addresses whether the notion of God once being a man taught as doctrine by the church. Travis wants to pretend that it isn't and that the majority of Latter-day Saints are just ignorant or deluded. He wants to present himself as enlightened with some "higher" understanding that what LDS leaders have very plainly taught for generations. It simply doesn't hold water and he knows better, but is pretending that the technicality of the teaching not being canonized in the standard works of the church makes it not church doctrine. He's being intentionally deceptive because he knows all of this but is engaging in a game of obfuscation to "win" a debate with a critic.
How many times are you guys going to post this video 😂
You got bested, cope with it😂
The Mormon guy has a nasty habit of equivocating when convenient and obfuscating by over complication when convenient. That’s really disappointing to see from someone who wants to be taken seriously
I don't care about being "taken seriously".
Thought I’d be fair and go watch the full conversation and see if the extra hour would by some miracle make Travis look better… it didn’t. Even more rude, factually incorrect statements, kept cutting them off and never letting them finish a sentence, called them stupid over and over, and then for some reason tries to say he’s not Travis and then gets annoyed when the guy tries to clarify. Really odd behavior
Ive never seen such an aggressive mormon
That's because most members of the church are not able to argue with people like Aaron. That's because Aaron is a deceptionist. Maybe he doesn't realize it. I don't know. But he's not interested in learning. Travis was trying to explain where Aaron is wrong (and he wrong everywhere). Nobody wants to hear Aaron's lies (out at least his egregious misunderstandings) and if he's not willing to hear where he is foundationally incorrect, I am not interested in hearing what he wants to babble.
@@jimconner3105 Basically Travis' position includes a strong belief that the Bible is pretty useless and that only scholars who can read the ancient languages are capable of understanding it. From his position, there is nothing that is reliable except for LDS prophets, and when they are wrong they are speaking as men, not prophets. "You would have to have a subsequent revelator, a seer, to understand those texts". This is the foundation of cults - distrust the accepted scriptures and put your faith in the charismatic man instead. I wish my LDS brothers could understand how they are being deceived. Members look for anything even remotely plausible to satisfy the contradictions. For example, not caring that the Book of Abraham is a fictitious translation of scrolls, or that that Book of Mormon does not tell a true history.
Sometimes we need to step up. Good on you Travis for teaching Aaron.
@@kobidoggy7575 What do you suppose Travis taught Aaron?
@@kobidoggy7575Travis didn't teach Aaron anything at all,. Only how to be defensive and a pure idiot.
Brooo these apologia guys really did snip out half of the conversation.
It's very obvious this is edited to make Travis look dumb. They don't show Travis approaching at all. A person doesn't just shut down and refuse to talk academically like this unless they have felt disrespected. I wouldn't be surprised if Aaron was honestly a jerk before the video started.
Beware a pastor who is dishonest with his following...
I mean, I watched the whole three hour conversation. It doesn't help.
Travis Anderson has repeatedly said that losing your temper is a sign of low intelligence. In this video, we see him losing his temper repeatedly. I guess he has low intelligence, according to himself.
He also seems to be willing to embrace homosexuality which is surprising and he also seems to deny that the LDS is a restorationists church. It appears he has adopted the idea that the church is being restored and has not actually been restored, which puts him at odds with Smith.
What was the timestamp where he lost his temper?
Re restoration, I think you missed out on was actually being said, or maybe it just has been edited that hard, I'll have to check. Aaron asserts here a premise that "if church=restoration, then church must hold x". This premise is fundamentally incorrect, and displays a fundamental lack of understanding of LDS thought and belief. To put it succinctly, LDS do not believe that the Church is so to speak a copy and paste of the church of the 1st century, rather, we believe that the LDS church is culmination of all times, containing means and mechanism for additional and continuing revelation to guide, direct, and edify the church, the most central means of which being through covenant relationship with god and the 12 Apostles and first presidency of the church. What do you understand LDS to believe about Restoration?
@Ekklesia24 So Aaron is wrong for expecting the restored church of Jesus to follow the clear teaching of the New Testament?
This is a difficult question since different LDS people give different descriptions of the restoration. Your description is not a restoration at all, but an evolution. Is the restoration complete or ongoing? Can a new part of the restoration contradict an older part, or the Scriptures?
@@yellowblackbird9000 you make no sense LOL go watch Aaron vs Kwaku obliterating him !! go deabte ROBERT BOYLAN lds apologist fo deabte blake osler jacob hansen !!!! some smart guys you have pride your full of it im not lds and Aaron go destoryed 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣
How could God have ever sinned? He sent His Son into this world as a living sacrifice for our sins and His Son replaced the unblemished sacrifices. If the Son was unblemished how could the Father have been blemished?
you make absolute no sense wow, where and what scripture who has said that? proof?
@@antimormon-px1eqif sinful Mormons can become a “god” it proves the point that you believe in a “god” that was once as you are.
Why can’t Mormons just state what Mormonism teaches and what they believe? Travis dodged every question.
I was a lost Mormon believing these absurd teachings but Jesus Christ saved me from the devils snare.
@@jaredwilliams1157 They don't teach that man can become God.... Nor do they believe that God was once like we are now. That's a gross misinterpretation. Which is certainly expected out of the ignorant......
was that a statement? or what? what is your point? if you wont understand actually go to somebody more educated than men im not gonna sit here and lie you cant just make claims and not know the actual facts its absurd and funny when a critic or a anti mormon comes to claim and interpret their own meanings go read the whole king follet discourse yourself go watch robert boylan a lds apologist, go watch blake ostler go actually read his book go pray about it multiple times and see the difference between satan and god, actually go be relevant instead of being irrelevant like you are using a straw man attack if you didint know! your using overused claims and not actually, to change your terms go study what the 15 fallacies are actually go read a book or go find a proper validated source!!!
@LazarusSchell every mormon I've talked to has stated otherwise. I've talked to about a dozen, maybe more.
This guy wants to hold you to a ridiculous standard that simply doesn't apply to him for no articulated reason.
I've never seen such a rude and arrogant LDS "apologist"! Sad. Thank you, Aaron and Apologia Church, for your ministry! God bless y'all.
Many times he says "I disagree with that premise..." or "I don't agree with that theology..."
He's proving that he is the authority over Scripture.
I also find it interesting that he makes no claims with what he or the church believes.
(an atheist tactic to avoid being wrong)
They always attack God’s word. Obviously the foul words coming out of his mouth reveal the condition of his heart. This was good! It’s amazing how when God saved me I knew nothing of scripture. When He changed my heart I thirsted for His word and to do good deeds. He can’t get past the fact that God would forgive his sins and he is secure in his salvation. There’s always work in the this poor man’s mind. He must learn that his works are like filthy rags
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. God doesn't care it's 2024. You changed He hasn't and He doesn't care what our opinion is.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
@@MatthewRoderick-mg6zy 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
😂😂😂
Mr. Travis thinks that making it sound like someone is ATTACKING his person is a valid argument to shut down FACTS... HISTORICAL FACTS, BACKED BY SCHOLARS, ARCHEOLOGIST, ETC ETC... 🤦♀️
Kudos to Aaron for enduring 2 hrs of this... 🎉
PRAYING FOR MR. TRAVIS TO TRULLY SEEk THE TRUTH AND FOR GOD TO SOFTEN HIS HEART...
Whew! Hard to believe I made it through the whole thing. The gospel is simple. Way more so than the Mormon apologist wanted to make it
Alternative Title: Apologia church makes the mistake of interviewing someone who actually knows the doctrine of his church, therefore doesn't go very well, which leads to calling said member "Swine, arrogant, and insolent." If you are going to preach to Mormons that they are going to hell because they dont believe in your man made beliefs about a 2000 year old document, you should be more prepared.
Hi Nathan. Would you characterize Travis as humble in this conversation?
Or, "Apologia Church attempts to reason with contrarian"
@@AaronShafovaloff1
I wouldn't. Definitely not the first thing I would characterize about him, anyway. I also consider that maybe he felt like he had to be that way in order to debate a calvinist. Being humble, wouldn't be how I would characterize many that debate religion. I would like to see how he is when he's not debating religion. I would like to also say that being calm, cool and collected isn't necessarily being humble. ❤
@@AaronShafovaloff1 Hi Aaron. I don't believe Travis was seemingly humble, no. But that isn't the crux of the issue. Jesus would call pharisees who taught the doctrine of man rather than God "children of the devil." He would flip tables while doing it. The point isn't who is being nice in front of a camera, anyone would have an incentive to do that. The point is you are recording conversations trying to destroy the faith of members by acting respectful and caring while talking to them, and then calling them "arrogant and insolent" once you can't win a debate with them. That's why people see through the facade you've created.
If you really aren't teaching the doctrine of man rather than God, convince me in front of everyone why we should believe you when you tell us the canon is closed, and that God can no longer speak authoritatively?
Travis was disingenuous during this whole conversation. The LDS gospel he presents is internally contradictory and goes against what I was taught
The fact that Travis didn’t know what “keep coming back to the cross” means is argument enough that he’s not a Christian
He knows what it means. You didn’t listen. Both parties had the same ideas, but Aaron just couldn’t or didn’t want to agree with a Mormon.
@@therisingknighttruewarrior4551 Aaron can't be seen agreeing with any LDS on Camera... That would damage his brand.
Travis knows what it means. He also knows the conversation is being recorded. He wanted Aaron to put it in non theological terms to show that they actually have and hold the same POV, and the area in which Aaron wanted to claim a different teaching by Mormons was an inaccurate and dishonest claim.
It was a brilliant rhetorical strategy by Travis. And it absolutely decimated Aaron's point which is why Aaron tried to change topics
@@LazarusSchell Travis. This video isn't even posted on Aaron's RUclips channel and you know he isn't involved in this channel or church. So what are you talking about?
❤ Aaron was extremely longsuffering with this interruptung, closed- minded proud man. Praying for him🙏💔
Travis dominated the conversation. I’m surprised Apologia actually posted this 😂
They had to upload it, they have to record and upload everything all the time, they do it to please there lord and master, the anti mormon burger King
Travis (LDS): "You would have to rely a revelator, which we would call a "seer" to understand those texts. "
Aaron(Christian): "Do you think that your prophets have given a consistent picture of who God is?"
Travis: "Yes"
Aaron: "Adam God?"
Travis: "Well. I don't think that's doctrine. I don't think that he was speaking doctrine".
Aaron: "So when you say that the LDS prophets have given a consistent view of God you're only referring to its cannon?"
Travis: "What's wrong with that doctrine?"
Aaron: "Well, your leaders condemn it."
Travis: "It's not false doctrine. It's misunderstood doctrine and the scholarship on this is robust."
I do not believe that Travis is intellectually disabled, but I do believe that he is spiritually disabled. He has been taught to put his faith in the LDS leaders over what God revealed thousands of years ago. When they change the doctrine, the LDS convince themselves of a way to excuse the history that proves that the LDS isn't consistent, because it isn't the restoration that they claim that it is. In the course of 2 minutes Travis claims that it wasn't doctrine, then that it is "misunderstood doctrine". The LDS learn to pivot quickly when confronted with a contradiction. Becoming an apologist for the LDS doctrine can be damaging to the ability to logic. It was one of the things that I noted when I was LDS, and realizing that it was broken logic a significant part of my path to exiting.
His daughters come up to talk to him and this Travis dude waves them off with a “5 minutes darling”… oh his face!
Just to clarify Travis recorded this and this whole conversation is over 3 hours long. So there might be things that have been left out.
Tons that Aaron cut out. That's the nature of nearly all channels operate in regards to Theological or Political Debate.
I was somewhat surprised to hear Travis say that the analogy of a Father adopting a child can be used to explain grace and salvation. That is LITERALLY the analogy God uses in His word to explain grace and salvation! The only reason Travis says "it doesn't make sense" is because Mormonism cannot comprehend actual, biblical grace and salvation. The analogy doesn't make sense within a Mormon mindset, which is why he said "it doesn't work" and "it doesn't make sense." Yet, that's exactly how God explained it... Telling.
No one in the comments would be able to hold a conversation like this. It’s pretty evident in what they are commenting. Go read.
Hardly anyone can hold a conversation like that when they are continually being cut off and talked over.
Agreed, I know that my knowledge and patience isn't where it could be.
@@bryanpratt5850 Aaron is being talked over, because his garbage tactics are clear.... The comments and questions that he's making to the LDS guy are canned, considered and studied and prepared to make him look bad. Travis just doesn't let him get away with it. He's either dealt with this dishonesty before, or he truly has the spirit of discernment.
@@LazarusSchell what is the point of asking questions if you refuse to hear the answer?
@@bryanpratt5850Aaron keeps making false statements as the foundation of his answers and so instead of listening to a bunch of malarkey built upon a false pretense Travis just stops the argument.
It’s like he presupposed subjective everything
This “LDS” guy is insufferable. He doesn’t seem to hold to any standard which allows him to duck & dodge at his pleasure. He calls his own church’s view irrelevant at one point. Such a lazy way to argue.
Travis won...... most annoying, most interrupting, most antagonistic, most deflecting....if he is going to reject scripture, shut down points being made before they are finished and only accept his own opinion.... it is impossible to lose, but he has disqualified himself from actually winning anything. He might as well put his fingers in his ears and mumble incoherently.
🏆
Middle aged, pseudo intellectual, wanna be hipster dude is exhausting.
Jeff Durbin?
@@mcable217 yes burger king
Yeah Aaron is pretty exhausting.
Not an effective "apologist". He wants to argue for the authority of his LDS "apostles" but says "classic latter day saints' understanding is irrelevant". He is like those papalists who argue for the authority of the latest pope to totally contradict what has previously been authoritatively taught invoking papal authority. Mormonism is full of doctrinal and moral confusion because it denigrates the authority of God's word in the Bible.
The same way the Jews find what Peter said was irrelevant. Do believers following Peter in the first century not be updating their understanding of previous prophets. 😂😂😂
@@bambie1830 God is not a God of confusion. His prophets and apostles teach the same truth consistently, with no contradiction. Christ and the apostles fulfilled what Moses and the prophets taught, and the ending of temporary rituals and sacrifices of the old Law was done in testifying to the truth of their having been given by God as temporary ordinances pointing towards their fulfilment in Christ and the Church. So they are relevant, and part of God's consistent revelation. No doctrine or moral teaching is a contradicted.
Just as I thought you were giving someone who wasn’t caught off guard by you proper representation at last, you cut it off when Aaron decided it was pearls before swine. You guys are hopeless.
It is even worse. The interview kept going for another thirty minutes. And Travis really shone. They took it all out. I've still got 13 minutes to go but man Travis is really doing well.
@@bryanlib1974 that’s their MO. Show when they look like they’re showing out, hide whenever they’re getting it thrown back at them. Nice and deceptive.
This guy is a piece of work.
He's a narcissist!
You clearly didn't listen to the conversation....
Yah, that was awesome. Travis schooled him.
@@LazarusSchell Travis didn’t say anything other than anything that has been taught and understood by members for the last 200 years is wrong and he understands why. Would’ve been great for all those members “following the prophet” to know their prophet was wrong about things as critical as grace and the Godhood. “Those are their opinions” ???? Not when they’re speaking from the pulpit as a prophet seer and revelator. Travis, knows this and yall know this.
Travis? No he’s not😅 He’s bored with the predictable tactics and set-up questions that these people plan out, with someone to take a video in a way to make Apologia appear in the best light.
LDS are used to all of this. All the time. Every day.
Travis is graceful enough to have a dialogue and listen to, what he already knows they are going to say.
“Apologia” is disingenuous. But of course they will post this to make them look pious and humble. But they make a religion out of tearing down the LDS Christian religion.
I would have genuinely wish these people a good day, and continued walking. Travis has more grace than I do. I’m so sick of the same old script, against LDS, all the time.
Thanks for posting this, learned much about the Mormon theology! great work by Travis
Travis is not so much trying to push his beliefs on Aaron as he is trying to point out the flaws in Aaron’s understanding of the official position of the church. His goal is to point out how Protestants or evangelicals come to conclusions as well as how lds members come to conclusions. Although Travis was abrasive he was transparent about being there strictly for business and not as a perfect representative of the church. Most of the conversation was about theology in general rather than being defensive. Travis made very sound arguments that I agree with as a member of the church but I must say l Aaron was very patient and respectful. An important conversation no doubt
This guy won’t let him finish a sentence. He’s so right for not listening to anyone’s point of view. Arrogant is the right way to describe
You do realize Apologia never listens to members right? Now the roles were reversed
The LDS denomination is ridiculous.
For example:
-Their forever changing doctrine.
-Their leadership runs off opinions/interpretations.
Whoever claims personal revelation is from YHWH actually worships themselves.
This guy in the hat & glasses doesn’t understand what he’s defending.
Not a denomination of anything but Satan
@@CornerstoneMinistry316 How is it a denomination of Satan?
How so?
You got destroyed. You’ll never tear down the church
May the Lord open your eyes to know the God who is Holy, Holy, Holy.
@@AaronShafovaloff1 wait but the debate with you and kwaku??? and robert boylan adressing you actually go debate robert of jacob hansen you guys are irrelevant LOL jeff durbin didint even respond to jacob hansen LOL Aaron your full of it pridefullllll !!!!!
the church is melting down around you
@@AaronShafovaloff1 ay go to kwaku debate vs Aaron!
You are correct. He will never tear down the church. Your cult might come down tho. Christ is KING and Joseph Smith is a fraud. They have the Rosetta Stone by now. We can tell he made this shit all up...
I love how many strawmen the Mormon creates while also using the weak defense mechanism golden oldie "That's YOUR view of scripture."
No, it is the PROPER view of scripture, and it is utterly sloppy debating tactics to assume your opponent is incorrect when you cannot find support for LDS doctrine nor any fallibility in Christian teachings since Jesus & the apostles.
He did that quite a lot. Same tactics as Muslims. Sad.
@@ThePreachingOfHisWord It all boils down to THIS: The Mormon has the free will to deny scripture and God until the day he dies. After that, it's just him standing before God in the final judgment and he will have to justify his heresy and explain why He has forsaken Him.
LDS: "Because the prophets said...." yeah, that should go over well😏
That's exactly the problem. Who decides? Joe pastor down the street? John Doe in a cabin in the woods with a Bible?
As a means of gaining better understanding, most serious students of the biblical texts employ what is called exegesis "to draw out", by seeking to understand background, author, intent, audience, and context to understand a text. Would you believe such are inappropriate criterion to employ in trying to understand a text?
@@ProbeScout The Holy Spirit decides. I believe you can get greater knowledge by employing those, yes.
The trouble is, you have to prove any claim against scripture, other than "It's just your opinion." to someone who can validate what it says.
@@nightshade99 The Holy Spirit has witnessed to me of Jesus Christ and His love personally, and also led me to understand the truths of LDS positions. What you are suggesting is a subjective criterion, a tool not fit for what you propose. As far as testing against scripture, interpretation is a fundamental roadblock. How do we understand and who decides what a passage means? You have access to the biblical texts because scholars translated texts while origins are thousands of years ago in cultures even further removed.
That is also presupposing scripture. What is scripture and who decides?
It's crazy to have so much hubris that you can repeatedly call someone stupid over and over and still can say your not being confrontational
Man this was an exhausting conversation. I commend the guy trying to witness to the Mormon. I personally don’t know if I could mentally handle his behavior. God have mercy on his soul.
I’m surprised y’all posted this instead of “gotcha” questions to unsuspecting members. Travis won, time to close up shop and convert to the true church.
“Theres not a single Divine author of scripture” -ignoramus
“All scripture is God breathed” -God
Finally, an LDS member who knows their stuff. Good luck attempting to convert him.
Travis pushed them to the defensive and gave em a crash course in law and theology.
He doesn’t partake in absolutes either, nor does he misrepresent Calvinist/Protestant teachings.
The comments may feel as well as Aaron that he’s arrogant when in reality Travis is giving a feel of what it feels like when apologia hounds and harasses Mormons.
I’d love to see Aaron debate Robert Boylan as well:
Not the biggest dogs of Reformed theology will talk to Boylan, as much fun as that would be, not likely to happen
Robert Boylan has challenged Aaron Shafovaloff to debate him, Aaron chickened out and lied about it. Aaron is a coward. This is why he blocked me on Facebook
@@ProbeScout true.
@@TheWyomingApologist I’m sure Aaron’s gonna block Travis at this point haha
@@TheWyomingApologistactually the reality is Aaron wanted clear debate parameters and Boylan wanted to engage in a gish gallop without having to defend any of his personal beliefs.
Similarly, Boylan wouldn’t debate Pints with Aquinas because he didn’t want to have to defend a Gish Gallop.
By Boylan’s own standard, he (Boylan) is a coward & a hypocrite.
it seems to be if u have modern day apostles you can overwright all of the bible....
Seems to be what the guy in this video thinks.
If you can make the bible, in its' end-state, be interpreted how you want, you can deny whatever other part you don't like. Words have meaning, context is important.
This guy is manifesting. Excellent patience from Aaron 👏🏻
There seem to be a lot of comments from Mormons that are overly dismissive of Andersons behaviors throughout the conversation.
It’s as though they have no category in their thinking that these things are condemned by the scriptures.
1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, slanderers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness although they have denied its power; avoid such people as these.
- 2 Tim 3:1-5
We see Anderson being boastful, arrogant, unloving, irreconcilable, without self-control, conceited, etc.
Such behaviors are not a ‘win’ , they are a sin.
Accordingly, 1 Cor 13:1-4 outlines that even if you know all there is to know and don’t have love, you’re merely making noise as we see done here on Andersons end.
I see this happening everywhere. This accurately describes the world in which we live in, and most people within it. I keep telling myself this is God's plan. Somehow this all serves the greater good for His Will and Glory. Sorts people out as it creates a definite dividing point. God is in control. Everything is going according to plan. That has to be true.
That said, to point this at one person, a Mormon, is grossly inaccurate. I get you oppose the LDS Church. Many do. I understand your point, however incomplete. For whatever is objective and subjective, this could be applied to just about any person throughout the world. This is most people, consistently, who are without sincere repentance, unfortunately.
12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Matthew 7:12-14
Only the very few will walk in the way, everlasting. Which is why praying "dangerous prayers" such as Psalm 139 is necessary. We will fail at auditing ourselves. Belonging to a particular Church or holding to a particular set of beliefs is sorely missing the point. All that is necessary is to understand Christ's Atonement gave everyone the opportunity to be saved.
Our role is only to serve God. The moment we do otherwise, repentance. Problem is very few hold themselves genuinely accountable. Very few walk in the way everlasting. It becomes even more difficult for people in this modern world.
Faith in Christ is everything. We must genuinely serve Christ, faithfully. There are very few that have and fewer that do. ❤ Our very nature is to be self-serving. That is what most do, despite what church they belong to.
Matthew 7 ❤
“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.
Matthew 7:1-6
Do not judge by the outward appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.
- Jn 7:24
The criterion for righteous judgment, is reliance on that which God says is good & righteous, rather than acceptance of arbitrary standards of behavior that vary from man to man.
It is ultimately that which comports with the scriptures & accountability to the written word, not an excuse to render one immune to charges of insubordination or flagrant disobedience to them.
To put it another way:
Even by Russell M. Nelson's standards, Anderson was certainly not thinking celestial with how he treated Aaron / Apologia.
That’s probably because for the past 200 years this is the same type of behavior members of the LDS church have been getting from Protestants / Evangelicals, and now once the tables turn it becomes a problem?
I saw a man who understands things like context and meaning are important to understanding scripture, engage with someone who operates with presumptions, and try to highlight why presumptions can't always be made.
If something is wrong, but said in a smooth sort of way, should it be accepted? No.
Felt bad for Travis because he had to dumb down this conversation.
I feel bad for people that elevate intellect and wit above reflecting the love, humility, and character of Christ.
All of which i did not see reflected in Travis's character the entire exchange
@@skiu4ea434 This was originally a 3+ hour long conversation that conveniently got edited and framed to make Travis seem “arrogant”
The other 2 hours this RUclips channel disingenuously left out show that Travis does have courtesy and kindness.
Don’t we all need to work on the character of Christ anyway?
@@Abitsma
Which one is it? Did Apologia leave out the true character of Travis or do we need to work on the character of Christ? I can assume that 2 hours of Travis is telling of his character for the other hour.
@@levibaer18 It’s both. You’re creating a false dichotomy.
Nobody has the true character of Christ save God himself, but that doesn’t mean that Travis has a bad character.
You can assume what you want, but as someone who’s actually listened to the other 2 hours it’s clear this channel is trying to make Travis seem worse than he actually is. They’re going so far as to put “Arrogant Mormon” in the thumbnail when nothing Travis did was arrogant.
I think it’s unfair to say he had to “dumb down” the conversation. Aaron was very patient and Travis kept interrupting him. This seems to have been driven home when Travis responded to Aaron’s request to take it down a few notches by saying “You think this is going to be productive?” As I said in another comment, you may dominate an argument by nonstop reactionary responses but you can completely lose the person in doing this.
This guy is so condescending yet thinks he’s the good guy.
The way the Mormon had to dance and constantly interject means he doesn’t have a solid position
That’s what apologia does in every debate little bro
@@devinhildebrandt2709 Yeah, except here the Mormon does it
This dude is very hostile.
Apologia set this video up. Feels like a hostile environment to me
No, don't give me the text. 😂😂😂
Not wanting to go to scripture is all we need to hear to know this dude is a joke.
We all know that Travis (burner account: @LazarusSchell) lies throughout this video, but a great example is at the 35:35 mark of this video. @LazarusSchell says that the King Follett discourse is an obscure passage. This is lie. Travis knows it's a lie. Yet he repeats the lie multiple times. What does the church says about what Travis is saying?
"There is no complete or verbatim record of what Joseph said, but several individuals took notes, making this one of Joseph’s best-recorded sermons. In the sermon, Joseph taught about divine nature and eternal progression. He countered the long-standing theological tradition that treated God as wholly different than humanity. He explained that “if men do not comprehend the character of God they do not comprehend themselves.”3 He taught that God “was once as one of us” and that “all the spirits that God ever sent into the world” were “susceptible of enlargement,” having the capacity to become like God in the eternities.4 Joseph also taught that a core part of each person is coeternal with God, comparing this divine core to a ring, without beginning or end."
- THE LDS CHURCH
How many lies can you spot in what Travis was presenting based on this text directly from the church's website?
How about Google AI?
"AI Overview
The King Follett Discourse, delivered by Joseph Smith on April 7, 1844 at a general conference in Nauvoo, Illinois, is considered one of his greatest sermons. The sermon included several important teachings, including:
Humanity's premortal existence: God was once human, and all spirits sent into the world have the potential to become like God in the eternities
Divine potential: People can become gods, and a core part of each person is coeternal with God
The nature of God: God is like a man, and the Father once lived on Earth as Jesus Christ does
The Joseph Smith Papers
Accounts of the “King Follett Sermon” - The Joseph Smith Papers
Joseph Smith gave an address on 7 April 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois, at a general conference...
The discourse also included the idea that people must learn how to make themselves gods. LDS Church president Lorenzo Snow later summarized some of the discourse's doctrines in a couplet that is often repeated in the church: "As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be".
Generative AI is experimental."
Travis is a liar and should be ignored by Christians and Mormons alike.
It's rather noteworthy that he has not responded to that particular claim despite the number of times you've challenged them. It's very much in-alignment with how Anderson instructs his Cavalry missionaries to not respond to questions regarding whether they are in the group, or whether Travis and/or someone else is helping them compose replies that they can copy-paste.
I didn't know that was a 'burner account". I don’t typically read comments.
Everyone has presuppositions Travis, it’s unavoidable and natural. 1:09:11
This mormon is clueless. He talks like he knows it all, but by his words proves he doesn't.
Even if we gave Travis doctrines, theology from only a single chapter from one author he would go right back to his view of possible errancy due to human origins. He wants to only adhere to what is said by whoever is in charge today.
Praying the mormons have ears to hear the true gospel.
What is the “true gospel”?
@@therisingknighttruewarrior4551 seconded
@@therisingknighttruewarrior4551Definitely NOT calvinism
Blind men don't know they are blind until they see. I have a hard time listening to people like this. I am grateful for these ministries because it helped bring me out of Mormonism, but even I can't follow his line of thought. I guess that I was just one of those mormons that didn't know his own doctrine.
@@ryansmith6610it’s just gaslighting on their part. This is a weird neomormonism that is hardly orthodox and feigns internal consistency and sophistication but really it doesn’t hold water under scrutiny.
Who told this guy a person can't read, study and interpret what God has to say in his word..
Holy Peter, Paul and Joseph Smith! Travis left Aaron dumbfounded, and at a loss of words multiple times. Travis you are a Legend brother😅
Only because it dawned on Aaron just how idiotic Travis’ points became as time went on.
@@BrendonKing That's because Aaron only knows the nonsensical interpretation of the Bible espoused by chaotic Christians. Aaron literally is positioning himself outside a place of worship and accosting members in the hopes of showing them to be ignorant. This guy showed him for what he is. A Liar, and a snake.
@@BrendonKingWhat made them idiotic?
Where do I start with Travis? He’s so smug and condescending. Leave alone his hat, man purse, and sweater. He interrupts and get triggered when Aaron asks him to slow down. He’s such a hypocrite
Travis: An epitome of hypocrisy.
Mormons…….the epitome of Blasphemy
How so lil bro?
@@devinhildebrandt2709 why don't you tell us how Travis is not a epitome of hypocrisy??
@@huhwho277 you have the burden of proof, (literally common sense here bud)
@@devinhildebrandt2709 explain Budd. I litteraly dont see what you see. One of us here is stupid
You got eviscerated, mainly because you have no clue as to your own interpretive lens.
Ahhhh and here is the problem. At 102:47 the Badger (Travis) said,” I’VE decided God can only do certain things.”
After watching all of the video, I’m so confused on Mormonism now. I have no idea what the LDS believe but I thought I knew. First Travis said he believes in Heavenly mother then he said no heavenly mother? Is this guy making up his own doctrine or is what he said actually true?
It's complicated, suffice it to say that this is not representative of classic orthodox Mormonism.
His religion officially affirms Heavenly Mother, but there are guys in Mormon apologist circles who reject the idea to varying degrees - Travis likely believes in it, but he is intentionally evasive & non-committal in his responses.
Simply put, you're far more likely to get a better idea from the average Mormon of what they believe in practice, in a random encounter on the street than from someone like Anderson who once had a faith crisis, and then had to synthethize his own version of neo-Mormonism to maintain his faith.
1:02:40 is where the context is needed: "And you're aware that that's a Pre-suppositional, Circular Theology, right?"
1:02:44 Aaron isn't sure what Travis is saying by that
1:02:47 Now, Travis presents an example to clarify: "I've decided that God can only do certain things. Only God can do certain things. And because Jesus also does them, he is 'Homooustous' [see homoousion] with the Father"
We'd have to go a little further back before 1:02:40 to see what statement Aaron said that Travis is using the example to clarify. However, we can certainly know that Travis is *not* making a statement on his own beliefs, but attempting to show Aaron an example of how Aaron's previous statement is 'Pre-suppositional circular theology'.
It took a bit of going back, listening (and looking up homooustous) to know what was being talked about, but it seems that there is a lot more to consider than heuristic assumptions that people unknowingly engage in.
LETS MAKE 100 BILLY 100 TRILLY 🙏🙏🙏🙏
Mr. Anderson keeps asking for 1 Scripture, from the Bible, that outright explains or says Trinity. Can he apply that same criteria to LDS beliefs of theTelestial kingdom, God was a man that became a God, pre-existence, temple marriage, using only the Bible?
I don’t think you mean “The Bible”. You could give Travis the entire standard works of the LDS church and he wouldn’t be able to do that. He keeps asking for Aaron to give him only one author in one book, so it’s much harder for him, since none of the LDS practices are ever laid out in the standard works, let alone by one author in one book.
The LDS position does not require things to be found “in the Bible” are you willing ignorant or incapable of critical thinking?
@@trent9297 Neither one. Also, I am no longer LDS because I actually read the Bible.
@@karenl7791 what denomination are you now.
@@trent9297 I am a non-denominational follower of Jesus. May I ask if you believe that one MUST belong to a certain denomination in order to be saved ?
The original conversation was over 3 hours long. Why'd you cut out so much Aaron?
Also, Travis' approach to Gospel principles is very circumspect (which may inform or be informed by his background in Law and a previous period of time as an Athiest).
Generally-Speaking, when people talk and interact, there are a lot of assumptions going on that we don't even think about, so the value in taking a circumspect approach in the realm of God yields the fruits of a more profound and confidence-building result. (Takes stepping-stones to get to that point, so don't worry too much about it. God can and will work with you as you are.)