Trent Horn: The Important Differences (and Similarities) between Catholics and Mormons
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- Before there Aug 22 2024 debate on Pints with Aquinas, Catholic Answers Apologist Trent Horn and Jacob Hansen discuss some of the similarities and differences between a Catholic and Latter-day Saint (mormon) worldview.
Be sure to check out "The Council of Trent" podcast on youtube
/ thecounseloftrent
Tune Aug 22 2024 for Jacob's Debate with Trent on Pint's with Aquinas
/ @pintswithaquinas
#mormon #lds #Religion #apologetics #christianity #exmormon #comefollowme #JacobHansen #atheism #TrentHorn #MattFradd #Counciloftrent #catholic #pintswithaquinas
Been active LDS my whole life. A few months ago, by complete surprise I have been learning about the Catholic faith. I am ashamed at what I thought of Catholics before. Starting OCIA next month and I cannot wait. Looking forward to this debate
It’s good to look into other religious traditions. I myself am fond of Catholic theology.
God bless you!
@@rhyde0731 It’s an amazing and awe-filled journey, and I think it catches most of us completely by surprise. With resources like Trent’s channel, the other CA apologists, Fr. Mike Schmitz, Bishop Barron and several others, there’s never been a better time to discover the ancient Church and learn about her from her own mouth. God bless you on your journey home!
@@rhyde0731 I hope you've found a good church for OCIA! God bless and I did same last year and decided to come home to the Catholic faith. It was good because it forced me to spend much time in prayer and the Bible. I went to a novus ordos church but still feeling compelled to go to the tradional Latin Mass as it is far more reverent. Not sure which you are attending but if you're used to and enjoy the reverence I'd stick with the tradional mass. Took me a long time to get used to praying with the hands in formation rather than arms folded lol
@@michellestansberry9101 unfortunately I only have one option in the town where we live. The closest TLM is 3+ hours away. Hopefully the classes go well! I totally agree about changing your prayer habits, I love what I’m learning but man it’s hard to break habits you’ve done your whole life!
Wow Amen!
As a Catholic, I want to thank you for being so cordial, congenial, and open to dialogue with us on these important topics. I also am very grateful for your clarification on a number of things I’ve always wondered about LDS theology. I’m looking forward to the debate and I hope this will engender a spirit of friendship and respect between our communities and beliefs.
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ I love this and whole heartedly agree! :)
Back at you brother! We appreciate your faith and respect.
@@calebsmith5102 and we appreciate your kindness and interfaith brotherhood.
i still wonder why LDS and catholicism both ignore God's Holy Command -- Ex 20:8-11 -- and both bow to the papacy, ignoring the fact that all Ten Commandments are forever and the 7th day Sabbath was today, the Lord's day -- nothing in Scripture shows us tomorrow is such.
thanks for reading!
former (35 yr) catholic, now Christian.
Member of the Church of Jesus Christ here - I appreciate you Catholics so much, too! ❤
Former LDS current Catholic. I really love this interaction.
I went the other way but I still glad I was raised catholic.
@@anitaanita1039heretic
Same! Trent was even more charitable than I could have been. Great to see such a well informed catholic perspective on Mormonism.
Yeah this is a very awesome interaction I really like listening cuz I love learning about other religions especially Christian ones. I'm a member of the church Jesus Christ of latter-day saints. Of course I would never leave this church and go and be a Catholic because I felt the Holy Ghost so many times that this is the true and Living church of Jesus Christ. But it's very fun learning about other ones
My dad was Catholic then LDS for two years then back to Catholic all before I was born in the 1950’s. So I was raised Catholic and knew nothing of his LDS past until he was about 70.
As a Catholic, having Trent as a representative is a blessing.
he's a good speaker, but this still doesn't make catholicism Christianity.
@@tony1685 Sure Tony 🤣 If Catholicism isn't Christianity then LDS or Protestantism isn't. We MADE you. Without us, your church not founded by Christ would not exist.
@@tony1685you’re not Christian
@@AudChaldean personal attack? that isn't very kind.
i speak of catholicism because i was catholic 35 yrs, i know what's taught.
you don't know me, Sir.
@@tony1685 So, you can attack an entire religion, a true first Christian religion, of a billion people , that’s ok , but I say to you the same now that’s offensive !? 😂 oh you “ were” Catholic 😂 I’m Catholic , and I say what you believe is false, now what? What do you have to say to that?
I'm Catholic, but I gotta say how much I admire the missionary spirit of the Mormon's, their strong community life and their defence of life!
We appreciate your strong commitment to following Jesus Christ also. We believe that is all that matters.
I was raised in a very Moody Bible Institute affiliated church in Chicago. I attended an all girls Catholic High School and I was honored to be a KAIROS leader as well. It was a special time in my young Christian faith formation. I entered the Roman Catholic Church years later in my 30's. YOU ARE LOVABLE!!
This is Jacob’s best performance, in my opinion.
I like he and Trent together.
Trent is a juggernaut.
@@hardwork8395 🤣
-Catholic Here- I love Jacob Hansen and his debate against the Calvinist “sola scriptura” debate was fantastic. His work against Jacob Isbell has me convinced the LDS Mainline Church has the best presentation of J Smith, his life and life of the Church. Now, I think a debate with Horn outside of the multi millennial philosophical debate of the Nature of God would not fair well for him. I’m curious on the debate topic as that would make my decision to watch or not.
@@johnnychikko3800 Joseph Smith the practitioner of the occult, eastern mysticism, kabbalah, necromancy Joseph Smith? You people haven't a damn clue. The same spirit that controls and operates over and within the LDS organization. Is the same that does over and within Roman Catholicism. LUCIFER
@@johnnychikko3800 Joseph Smith? The practitioner of the occult Smith? You people really haven't a clue🤣
@@lespaul382 You don’t have to agree with the LDS Founder, Prophet and or doctrine’s but these age old Anti- Mormon rhetoric is un Christlike and uncharitable. I’m not LDS but if I were I would definitely stead clear of your form of Christianity.
Glad there will be a less structured discussion before the formal debate. Hyped for both 👍 Trent is a good guy
As a Catholic, part of me envies the faith the Mormons have as well as the closeness in community they have with one another. They are genuinely so fervent and practice what they preach.
I don't agree with theology or prepositions of Mormons one bit. But there's definitely something we as Catholics can learn from the LDS.
As an LDS woman, I respect the Catholic Church and I love mass. My favorite part is when the congregation passes the peace...I think that's what it's called. It does make me sad that others don't have the same closeness in community as we do in the LDS church. We do minister to each other's temporal and spiritual needs ❤
I will say, our community was tight where I was raised LDS, but not many of my connections were genuine. Many of my friends were assigned to me through their callings, and there was a noted inauthenticity. Not in every relationship of course, but overall that was my experience. I have to seek out connection and not all parishes have good opportunities for it, but because it's more of a choice on my part and theirs the connections have been more genuine. I do wish more parishes had more opportunities for getting together, but without "callings" like in LDS, it requires parishioners to volunteer and set things up.
@Cklert - as a Catholic too, it's sad to hear that you're not experiencing an active/close community. Where are you at?
Everywhere we've lived/traveled we literally have to limit ourselves insofar as how many ministries we get involved in there are just so many.
If your local community is not very active, look into national groups like Family Apostolate , ACTS, Cursillo, etc - there are Many!
@@garyr.8116 I was more or less talking about parishes in a general sense. Not specifically mine.
My parish is active. But it's also very large and growing. Which is a very good thing don't get me wrong. But it becomes very difficult to develop a close community as there's simply just a lot of us. There are plenty of events, ministries, etc. I do wish there were more things centered around young adults.
When I compare it to the LDS though, it seems a lot tighter I guess that's the word. Like everyone knows each other, and everyone gets together outside of church activities. At least from what I am told.
@@Cklert Related but not a direct answer to what you’ve been talking about:
My LDS brother and his wife moved from Texas to Maryland for just a year and just now moved back to their house in TX…. They needed a place to stay in MD for only a year, with two little boys…. My sister-in-law was close friends with a Catholic, who helped them find a place through her Catholic connections.
Our whole family, having always lived in Utah and been LDS, not knowing too many Catholics, was surprised to learn that the Catholics have networks just as we do. 😆 And I LOVE it!
So now, reading your comments, I am much more curious about how the “Catholic network” and the “LDS network” compare.
It is very special to have networks of people that you trust - partly because you know and trust them and partly because you trust that they believe what you believe and will treat you honestly and fairly.
I think it’s a lovely component of the Christian society that we would all like to build.
Latter-Day Saint here. I love Jacob, and now I love Trent. It was a marvelous conversation, and these kinds of conversations reinforce to me that we are all children of God. He has beautiful things in store.
Humbled by the harmonious compatibility and classic excellence of these two Godly and wonderful men. Mature, fully-actualized temperaments of inestimably rare quality.
🙌🏻🙌🏻 Well said! I agree.
I left the LDS church this Easter to be baptized Catholic. The Eucharist is salvation.
Amen! " “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you." Jn 6:53
The REAL presence of Christ is a game changer and true to the core
Amen. A few years ago for me. Welcome home!
Current member of the LDS Church and I love and respect all faiths that profess the name, authority and divinity of Jesus Christ
The Eucharist is salvation! Where did you learn that? Not in the Bible. Faith in Christ and who He is and what He has done is Salvation. Bible says “ You are saved through faith” You have to twist Scripture and misinterpret it and pretend you do not understand what Scripture is saying to come up with your statement about the Eucharist.
The Catholic Church has done this!
Jesus was not saying eat His flesh and drink His blood literally!
Just as He is not a gate literally.
Just as He is not a door literally.
Just as He is not water literally.
The Catholics will agree with to 3 examples above. But how interesting that they will NOT admit that about the flesh and blood?
Because they have invented their own doctrines around it and need to protect and defend them!
What a good idea to have a friendly discussion like this before the debate!
I was an active member my whole life, even served a mission, but I have found everything I knew about Catholicism to be wrong and the truth in Catholicism is so beautiful, and I’ve never felt so connected to God. Can’t wait to be become Catholic next Easter !!
@@HowdyHowdens same, a few years ago. Welcome home!
@@ChaChaDancin thank you!! I think Mormons make such good Catholics! Lol
to each their own . I was Catholic and I never knew God until I became LDS.
EXCELLENT conversation. As a Latter-Day Saint, I’ve always appreciated Catholicism not only for its grandeur, but for recognizing the importance of the priesthood and an orderly structure of leaders. Like Jacob here, I respect Catholics, I’ve been to a few Masses and I think it’s great that these two churches have created a saintly alliance with each other in recent years.
A new era of Catholic - LDS relations begins
Will Matt Fradd be lighting a cigar fro a burning BOM?
No. Catholics will never engage with LDS with any respect. Note how Trent Horn in the intro said how he respected or had positive feelings towards Latter Day Saints ie taking the Book of Mormon. LDS must stop begging for friendship. Catholics will never present LDS theology accurately or respectfully.
@@suem6004you haven’t been listening to Trent. He’s been very respectful and has presented LDS theology here accurately and has asked for clarification, so that he can have an accurate representation.
The Great falling away. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. Hebrews 13 . . . But absolutely not in aberrant religious authority. The reason that Sola Scriptura is hated by orgs like the Mormon and the Catholic, is that both organizations are exposed for the wrong paths they lead people to walk. Although, ironically, "There is nothing new under the sun."
@@hardwork8395 I've been listening to Trent. His videos addressing our history and theology aren't very good. He hasn't done his due diligence.
Loved this! Thank you to you both. I didn't realize, as a Catholic, we shared so much in common! I apologize to Mormons, I had a lot of misconceptions about your faith, namely, the polygamy stuff.
As a random member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)- we already forgave you! 😊 It's no problem at all when people don't understand our beliefs and there are many of us who do not understand Catholics, but the ones I have met have been extremely kind and welcoming. It does seem like we should at least work together for good whenever possible. We are far more similar than different.
Just saw a clip on God’s nature, heaven, and bodies in heaven.
I have to say as a Catholic I’ve been dying for an LDS and RC dialogue like this. I find Mormons to be so much more interesting than Protestants and I really believe the LDS belief system helps clarify overlooked Christian beliefs such as this. Catholics and modern western Christians in general tend to only think of God in his Divine Essence the atemporal pure actuality (divine simplicity) BUT we also believe in created spiritual realms (beyond our physical universe) where souls/angels AND BODIES reside. This type of stuff helps clarify the bodily ascension of our Lord and other bodies that have been assumed into heaven (as Trent brings up). Thankful that LDS teachings are bringing light to these things that modern Christians wiggle away from or haven’t even bothered wrestling with.
I don't know if you have come across it,but the LDS believe that John the Beloved did not taste death and even saw a protestant video highlighting this. Thought it was interesting. He has stayed to preach, testify and help those in need and anything else directed by the Lord.
Love it! Interfaith dialogue is such a beautiful thing!
@@CrackedCandyyour post makes no sense: and I'm a Protestant.
@davidjanbaz7728 LDSaints reject the tradition that John the Beloved died in the beginning half of the 2nd century. We believe he still walks the earth but was constrained by the Lord from leading the church as a general body.
I know that and Protestants would never make a video on John NOT dying.
His statement is factually false and ( Cracked candy's post) is confused by CYA ing or outright lying.
Reread his post that I was responding to: I know what Mormonism erroneously teaches about John.
Brother Hansen! This is Talan from boys camp, I have been binge watching your videos as of late, love the channel! Excited for the new vid!
Hey Talan :)
Glad you are enjoying the channel.
Looking forward to this. Trent is an outstanding guy. Fair... Honest... not Jeff Durbin. Jacob will do great.
Trent still thinks you all aren't Christians due to Catholic theology: same as Jeff.
@davidjanbaz7728 true, but he's not a jerk about it. That's what has Trent standing out and why he has so many LDS people like myself subscribed to his channel
@@akpred agreed: look at his video on Sola Scriptura with Dr. Gavin O. : Jacob should talk him for a polite Calvinist response to both Trent and Jacob.
@@davidjanbaz7728 that could be interesting
Not Jeff Durbin 😂
I grew up Catholic before converting and becoming a Latter-day Saint. I love this interdenominational dialogue and we should seek to understand each other and unite against evil. So much love to the Catholic Church but personally speaking, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints provided a lot of answers to questions that my soul was looking for. I feel like I’m following Jesus Christ more in his restored church.
I grew up Mormon before I became Catholic 🤷♂️.
@@paul_321 Looks like we swapped positions, friend.
@@TheRandomGangsta Yep, you went for a church that gave you feelings I went for a church that provided the truth. After finding out Joseph Smith was a pedo I couldn’t stay a Mormon.
@@paul_321 quit being a lazy learner
@@reillydevine12 your mom doesn’t think I’m lazy 🤷♂️. If you want to use playground insults try harder
This was so refreshing. My mom grew up catholic and my dad Mormon. LOVE prevails. Jesus can resolve differences in tenants in .2 seconds when we die. Unity and love and learning are what we need now. Thank you.
Jesus can’t resolve differences in .2 seconds, silly! He can do it instantly!
God bless ❤
I absolutely agree with you, @snowmj! Love to you!
@@DavidPeel-fo9xv you my friend, are correct. Can't wait for that day!
I think you’re spot on. We really should all be better about focusing on the 2 commandments Jesus gave. Love God with all your being, and love your neighbor as yourself.
@@chrisblanc663 you nailed it. Love you brother.
I love the dialogue on topics where the two religions don't see eye to eye. It wasn't a gotcha conversation. It wasn't hostile. It was calm and insightful. We need more of this in the world.
I’m Catholic and I thought this was great. Both parties were extremely honest about their faith and what they thought about the other side. Nonetheless this was so respectful and kind.
I have a new appreciation for baptism as Trent described. It reminds me of how we view the temple sealing as being a safeguard even when one is in rebellion. Repentance is still required, but there’s a sense of God is there watching and finding ways to invite one back.
I can’t wait for this and the debate. Two of my favorite people on RUclips!
Trent might be the biggest guest you've landed (reputation wise)😅. Exciting! Great conversation!
As a Catholic fan of Trent Horn, this dialogue gave me new respect for the beliefs of latter-day saints. Certainly wouldn't say I'm converting any time soon, but I have to admit there is more sophistication to the theology than I thought.
After reading many of the Given's works' I have to wholeheartedly agree. Many American post enlightenment restorationist traditions have very eloquently and sophisticated theological view. Still doesn’t make them true.
@@johnnychikko3800 well stated -- after reading the Bible, neither of these are true.
I’m an ex-Mormon, possible future Catholic, and current huge fan of Trent (both books and podcasts/debates). I wasn’t familiar with Jacob before this and even though I don’t believe his arguments for or claims about Mormonism prevail, I must say he’s excellent here. He’s easily in his own league of Mormon apologetics when compared to clown shows like Ward Radio.
I’m an active Latter-day Saint, and I completely agree with your take on LDS apologetics. There are many serious apologists for the Church, but not many of them are well-known on RUclips, and most of the serious LDS apologetics on the internet are through FairLDS and BYU’s religious studies website.
Have a blessed day, as Trent would say!
Ward radio doesn’t consider themselves apologetics by any means. They actually consider themselves comedians first if you can believe it. They are very funny typically.
You should check out “saints unscripted”, and their “faith and belief” section. Along with “keystone”
Catholic here. Jacob's love and sincere seeking of truth is what sets him apart for me. The Ex Mo Mormon Stories meets watered historical FAIR Mormon and the hyper social media "Midnight" Mongell type RUclips apologetics just isn't convincing. I'm a J Hansen Fan
how about following Christianity, Cheesehead?
I am a house divided against itself: baptised and confirmed in the Catholic Church & baptised and confirmed in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Active Latter-day Saint but I do love the church that raised me.
This dialogue really helped me demystify and understand LDS theology better, and I really, really appreciate it. To me, it seems that mormonism is almost the opposite to gnosticism. Gnostics condemn the material world, Mormons claim God is material. And that's why Hansen respected Catholic, because the Catholic church insists on the interconnectedness between the spiritual and the material view of God (Catholic doctors are assortments of platonic & aristotelian thinkers, Plato being more gnostic, ideal, transcendence, while Aristotle being more natural, material, empiric.)
And why Mormons are at odds with Protestants, whom are leaning more Platonic in their philosophy.
Edit: It's said that Aquinas "baptized" Aristotle, his philosophy, marking the pinnacle of scholastic theology. So, Hansen being fascinated by Aquinas kinda confirms Mormon is more aligned with Aristotle than Plato.
You do know that Mormons believe your Catholic philosophy is why a total Apostasy happened and why their church was nessasary.
Protestants were interested in reforming certain church doctrines NOT claiming the Catholic church like the Book of Mormon does in calling it the Mother church of Abominations.
You seem to just gloss over this Mormon teaching of all authentic Christians out of Mormonism being in and from this Mother church of Abominations.
Protestants and Catholics have far more in common than with Mormonism.
I'm a lifelong latter day Saint. I've learned a lot about catholic theology recently and come to appreciate it a lot. I firmly believe in the book of Mormon and have a witness of its truthfulness. However, were the church to do something to completely discredit it (like Jacob says embracing gay marriage or something like that) I would immediately embrace the catholic faith. Those are the only two possible true churches in my mind.
@@coxrocks25 I was the same way. Once God led me to start digging into all the BoM anachronisms, the truth quickly became apparent. Loving my new life in Jesus’ Church.
@ChaChaDancin I can't see how it is possible for an unlearned farm boy in 1829 to make up a story that is so profound with so many deep and applicable lessons and principles to so many life situations in a matter of a few months without divine intervention or severe satanic influence. Even the best authors today would have a challenge doing that. And if it were satanic influence, how could a church that produces so much good be built on that? Even Christ said by their fruits ye shall know them. The fruit of the church is undeniably good at this time. If it were proven false by an example i previously cited, there's no other church than the Catholic church that has legitimate claim to Christ's authority. I guess i can't say for sure I'd run stait to the catholic church but Christ's authority seems incredibly valid and important in the Bible. But I also have the witness of the Holy Ghost as I've prayed about the Book of Mormon that witnesses to me every time of its truthfulness. I actually did request my records to be removed from the church at one point. The Book of Mormon and my patriarchal blessing brought me back from that with a powerful witness. I can't deny that because of a few flaws of man. I don't understand every point of doctrine. I don't even necessarily hold that the historicity of the book of Mormon is flawless but I've had too many witnesses that the principles and doctrines contained therein are true and are God's word. And as I live them my life is blessed. That seems witness enough for me for now.
Happy to see Jacob dialogue with Trent. As a former Mormon now catholic, it's refreshing to see him away from the ra-ra-ra chamber of ward radio and actually dialogue without Cardon talking over everyone.
As a Catholic I like Cardon/s comedic approach, but I do agree100%! Jacob is my favorite LDS RUclips apologist
I'm a born Catholic, declared a Baha'i in 1971, married a Mormon eventually. I just so loved the idea of prophets and holy men, myths and angels. Now I just don't want to deal with dogma and organised religion. I like my personal relationship with the divine. Good is good. I am nearly 80. I'm good. My kids are good. Grateful for all I am still learning.
I get it.
Or you might want to repent, turn from your sin and turn to the Holy God and creator who gave you life and sustains your life and can kill the body and after that destroy the soul.
A few months ago, some LDS missionaries were spotted in my neighborhood so I invited them inside. We had a very nice 2 hour discussion. I brought up my Catholic objections to their faith, they explained things I was unclear on. It was very fruitful!
To paraphrase Dennis Prager, clarity if not agreement.
Are you wearing the magic underwear now 😂
@@danlopez.3592 Hahahah nope! I am still steadfast in my Catholic faith. I don't think the great apostasy holds water as a historical theory, nor do I think that the way authority works in the LDS Church is coherent. But the missionaries were kind enough to discuss these with me at length.
@@masonm2684 you do know that joseph Smith was given gold plates and had four witnesses. How possibly could you not believe in the personal testimony of these God-fearing people.
@@masonm2684 I will pray for you as I feel your heart has been hardened
Catholics 🤝 Mormons
Disagreeing with Protestants
Just funny to me that the points in which the Protestant view was specifically defined and disagreed with were the most common ground in the whole discussion lol
Great conversation. I learned a lot from both sides…still glad to be on team LDS.
I love this style of conversation. More with Trent and Jacob!
A thought I had towards the end was this: Mormons seem to struggle with the Classical understanding of God and I think if we're honest, we all do, because he is infinitely complex, infinitely simple, timeless, all powerful - how can the human brain that only perceives in three dimensions understand this? Well, God maybe doesn't expect us to which is why he became man, to show us himself in a man so that through the person of Jesus and our love of him, we would know God. Just a thought. Love you all! xo
It's very impressive. How cordial and respectful these two are. The world could learn a lot
In my experience practicing and devoted Catholics and practicing devoted Latter-Day Saints are cut from the same cloth. I am lifelong LDS, but would be Catholic otherwise.
Cradle Catholic here, who left the Church for 16 years as an atheist, and then came back first via an intellectual study, which were followed by mystical experiences, in that order.
Genuinely curious, what convinces you that LDS is the true faith?
I agree! I’m Catholic and have a best friend who is LDS. So many similarities, yet strong doctrinal differences.
@@alisterrebelo9013bookmarking for later. I want a crack at this.
@@alisterrebelo9013 Not rhe same person here, but consider Robert Boylan's story if you get a chance to look it up
Same!
Awesome discussion. I’ve been looking forward to this. Great job coming together from different religions to discuss. As a Latter-day Saint, I’ve observed many won’t even sit down with a Latter-day Saint to have a conversation.
I think the biggest difference between Latter-day Saints and Catholics occurs at 18:20 in the video. The fact that Catholics believe that public revelations stop after the last apostle is the biggest difference compared to us as we teach revelation is on going. All further doctrinal differences relate back to this point.
I believe all doctrinal differences relate back to either a Great or "TOTAL" Apostacy happened, or it didn't.
While there are doctrinal differences between our two churches it’s encouraging to see, hear and listen to both of these gentlemen speak about their faith experiences and their understanding of their own faith doctrine. I spent my eighth grade year at a military boarding school…went to mass three days a week and didn’t understand anything the priest said- it was all in Latin! Let’s keep the conversation going! 😊
Let’s do!! We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. 🌟
Loved this discussion. I learned a lot and gained a greater appreciation for our Catholic Brothers and Sisters.
Thanks for having these discussions and defending the faith Jacob. I got you on the Temple Prayer Roll. Let the Holy Spirit guide you.
Wow! I love our Catholic brothers & sisters!
We love our LDS image bearers Beloved!
Excellent discussion that helped me to better understand my Catholic brothers and sisters. Trent is top-notch, knowledgeable, and respectable. Hoping for more discussions like this in the future.
This is so cool. I really like the Catholics and Trent is of course a great thinker. Wasnt't expecting this @Thgoughtfu Faith, but I'm here for it!
Leaving the LDS faith and coming home to the one true apostolic, catholic church, I have noticed there are similarities to both.
There still was no great apostasy
sincerely wondering how it could be 'apostolic' when it doesn't meet His criteria. both ignore Ex 20:8-11, clear similarities.
Welcome Home
@@johnnychikko3800 why curse that person!
tell me, does a Christian know God, love Christ and walk in Truth -- according to your 'church'?
answer with both accuracy and integrity -- i will then show you how you're wrong.
Leaving the Catholic faith and becoming LDS was the best decision I have ever made. I didn't know Christ till I did.
@@shortvideo.292 if all in the Bible kept all Ten Commandments -- and neither catholicism nor lds do -- why would you side with a system which doesn't meet His criteria, Sir?
What a great podcast. Loved every minute of it. Trent is an outstanding respectful guy. Jacob you did awesome.
This should be a big boost for your channel.
This was a nice talk to survey the differences. No proofs or arguing just a inventory of differences.
I noticed a lot of similarities in a good (& large) LDS family and us good (large) Catholic Families, especially in Family values.
Unfortunately there are many (too many) 'cultural' Catholics out there who don't adhere to true Catholic Teaching.
Praying for the Lord to shower ALL with Graces that lead to unity!
Amen!
As a former Catholic, I am SO pumped. I have been waiting a long time for this!
If you are a former Catholic, you're going to be in for a surprise.
As a former LDS I'm so pumped as well
As a member still of the LDS church. I nearly left the church because of the ces letter and the book of Mormonism, and the claims of all the things said about Joseph Smith. I was after 55 years was in a crisis of faith. So I got in my knees and prayed for the truth , one way or the other. And for only the second time in my life , I was answered immediately. And I started finding the answers right away.. the journals of the members and of Joseph Smith, Oliver cowdry , didn't match the book of Mormonism. And the. I found out Hurlbut helped write it . And he was kicked out of the church for claiming to have fooled the God of old Joe Smith. And laughed about it. So he wasn't sorry for committing unsavory acts in the church. Hurlbut became in raged and therefore said he would bath his hands in the blood of old Joe Smith.
And Willard Chase also came after Joseph Smith for perceived wrongs. And tried to steal the gold plates and even used his own sister to use basically witch craft.to.find them. It's all there. I assure you things are there to prove the church is true and the BOM is true. @@jordanring-sakabe3773
@@MrRickb75645 you know how you don't get a witness until after the trial of your faith? I've had that happen a few times. When I found Ward radio, it came after my first encounter with a Calvinist. The guy had been such a Cult of Personality manipulator, that when I was having a hard time and asked heavenly father, the Holy Ghost told me one word about him that made complete sense: "Corrosive".
As ex-mormon and now catholic, I hope you come back.
We are Lds and my brother and two sisters went to catholic school. It was such a good experience for them.
My one sister had a foot injury and was home from school healing from the injury so my mom went to pick up homework for her at the school and the students were praying for my sister at the end of class. Praying for her to get better and for her foot to heal. What a blessing to have students praying for others in their class. There would be so many less problems in school if students were praying for one another.
Mass was also a lovely experience as well.
"Mormons are going to get their own universe"😳🤯
So they do believe that?!
"I don't want to worship some guy for eternity?"
It's not "a guy," that's exactly what the main difference is between Christians and non-Christians. A non-Christian would never understand that a true Heaven is a place where us creatures experience and witness the glory of God to the fullness and our nature will be to automatically worship him. And to be in His presence is simply enough for us. We don't need to become gods like He is, look at what happened to Adam and Eve when they were jealous of God and wanted to become like him. We don't need to create a universe, and definitely men don't need to have multiple wives in Heaven. Being in the presence of our Creator is more than enough.
I believe him saying "some guy" was a mistake. We don't believe God is just "some guy". God is the creator of all things, our eternal Father and I will joyfully worship him my entire existence.
Yes we do believe we will have the opportunity to gain stewardship and authority to create beautiful things, God created us to grow and progress.
His take on the multiple wives is also his personal opinion, I personally don't believe men will have multiple wives in the next life.
I just finished the whole video and I really enjoyed it. I'm learning a lot about the LDS church since I moved to Salt Lake City 4yrs ago. I'm a practicing Catholic and lived in South Texas before and I never heard anything about the teachings of mormonism before. Thank you for this video.
Well the good news is the Terrestrial Kingdom is basically what both Catholics and Protestants believe heaven to be.
It's not a personal opinion. The church allows men to be "sealed" to multiple wives, at least if they become widower. Women cannot be sealed to multiple men though. Didn't you learn at church that Joseph Smith was married to multiple women and "sealed" to then for eternity? It's literally a mormon doctrine.
@@lizethcantu9760 And after women are deceased, they can be sealed to any previous husband. What I think he is saying is, eventually one man and one woman will move onto exaltation (after the pattern of Adam and Eve). All these sealings are done and put in place simply because they are necessary for whatever is eventually decided, though we can't foresee that at this point.
More debates should have discussions like this prior to get to know each sides better 👍
I just can’t wrap my head around the Christian view of the trinity and the nature of God. Just me? LDS beliefs on this just make more sense. Loved listening to this discussion. It’s so great to learn about the beliefs of others and find common ground.
@sandraleard6662 - so, anthropomorphize God into a man just so he's easier to understand?
Scripture show us:
The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
They have no speech,
they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
Psalm 19:1-3
Can man who cannot fully explain the the unfathomable vastness and wonders set before our very eyes in the skies/heavens with our super-powerful telescopes - not even the greatest scientists can 'wrap their heads' around or even fully explain the universe that we CAN see ; can that man dare to try to 'fully explain' the wonderous God whom we cannot see, He whom thus created this vastness for all that we can see ??
Philosophically the LDS understanding of God does not make sense. The LDS God is neither omnipresent nor omnipotent as he had to become man first then become God. It’s a real glaring hole that I can’t square.
Yes! I can not understand the Trinity its not something tgat can be explained
@@jenalynhancock3874 you can read the theology on it from the Church and then I would say read both Augustine and Aquinas on this topic.
@sandraleard6662 they simply repeat what they've been catechized, but they don't understand it either. Even as you listen to them, you'll notice that they use more or less the same language, which is a sign that they simply repeat what they've been taught. No one understands it, that's why no one can explain it in their own words with some clear examples. And tbh, it is absurd and inconsistent, and makes little sense. But no one will admit that either.
As a non Trinitarian SDA, I found the discussion on classic theism interesting. I believe Jacob had a good point on the issue of whether or not the classical theist God would be an actual being or person or simply a Law. I had previously concluded that the classical view is not a person but more like a Law. In my belief God is a physical material being with a form who has always existed and Jesus came out of His being, aka begotten, having the exact same nature to Him but a distinct individual. Anyhow, good friendly discussion.
I suppose the issue with saying classic theism is a Law is the issue of B theory of time where all moments exist simultaneously and are as eternal as God is. I don't see how a Law could exist that would make it so my future and past self exists right now. With that said I don't believe that is a rational idea even with a personal God who is outside of time. The the entire concept of an immaterial God outside of time along with B theory of time is something I find to be less rational than an eternal Law, though I don't agree with that concept either.
You obviously need to talk to trinitarian SDA members!!!
@@davidjanbaz7728they disfellowship us when we do. They don't want to return to the the faith we had in the 1800's. Also the SDA Trinity is actually 3 individual beings, 2 having physical bodies, and one is an immaterial being all three having no origin. It is very different from classic Trinitarianism. It came into our church in the 1900's and had completely taken over by 1980. Our old belief was revived shortly after and today there are thousands returning to the old faith.
@@CorJenFarm friend, i am SDA and believe 100% in the -trinity- Godhead. Jesus Christ has a physical body, but the Holy Spirit and Father do not. anyhow, it's best we focus on and try to lead others to understand the Lord's day being the 7th day Sabbath -- keep focus friend!
@@tony1685 interesting, it is very rare to find a SDA who believes the Father has no body. From Ellen White:
In February, 1845, I had a vision of events commencing with the Midnight Cry. I saw a throne and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus’ countenance and admired his lovely person. The Father’s person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered him. I asked Jesus if his Father had a form like himself. He said he had, but I could not behold it, for he said if you should once behold the glory of his person you would cease to exist" (Letter published in Broadside 1, April 6, 1846, par. 7).
I love how God doesn't condemn you for having a mistaken conception in LDS doctrine. We will all fix our misconceptions in time. Such a beautiful teaching that helps us to love others of different faiths the way that God does.
I love the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ that reveals the true nature of God.
That we are literally God’s offspring…Acts 17:29.
The truth that we are His children…John 1:3, that we are God’s children.
That we were made in His image and likeness.
He is our Father.
I love the simpleness. It’s glorious, hope-filled truth it expands my soul and fills me with joy! ❤️☀️
This was great to listen to. I'm glad these conversations are happening
It makes sense to me that if you don't have a doctrine of baptism for the dead that you would need a wide flexible policy for baptizing anyone who wanted it. It does seem disorganized. It makes way more sense to me to have authority from God to baptize and then offer that gift to everyone who is willing to accept it
As a lifelong Catholic, I've known many wonderful Mormon families that I have tremendous respect for. So happy to see this dialogue!
Jacob's making history right now.
Explain, develop
SOS Mormon history!!!
I agree! I love everything about this discussion.
As much as I find LDS people having the wrong theology of Jesus. I believe they have a lot they can teach Catholics in many areas of their faith. I have really enjoyed this communication between Trent and this other man I forget his name. It gives a chance to learn about both of these faiths and a calm, gentle way. I wish we would have more people communicate like this. Because even as a Catholic, there is so much that Trent is saying that many Catholics don’t even understand about being Catholic. I would imagine it goes the same for the LDS. I have met many missionaries over the years. And very few really know how to have a calm conversation. They often seem to want to just attack my faith, but no nothing of it but yet want to tell me that they know everything about it. Sometimes we need to just listen and take the process slowly. And let the Holy Spirit guide us. Thank you for this incredible and gentle conversation about Catholics and Mormons.
I don’t think our purpose is to move away from suffering. I think it is to learn to accept that suffering is linked to good and you must accept suffering to create the greatest good. Christ himself accepted and moved through the greatest suffering to create the atonement. If we are to follow Christ we will learn to do the same.
the point about suffering is about the eternal perspective. What you are describing is very earthly and somewhat erroneous. While we do need to learn to deal with suffering with faith, we don't need to suffer needlessly and we are meant to move away from suffering whenever we can. For instance, if you are in an abusive situation, you need to remove yourself from it. If you are assaulted, you should defend yourself, not submit to the assailant. You are within your right to defend yourself, to protect your bodily and psychological integrity -- those are all ways of moving away from suffering. Suffering is part of this broken world, but it doesn't mean we should be passive about it. Even throughout the Bible people seek happiness and well being, not being pushovers/victims. Even Christ first asked to have his cup removed from him, only after which he said thy will be done --- seek your well being, seek happiness, seek joy, while accepting God's will and whatever may come, which may include suffering.
As a Catholic, I've always liked LDS, especially their social values. I do feel somewhat more aligned to them than Protestants
💯
Same, I wish they were the truth but it's so easy to debunk them lol. Oh well
@@a.ihistory5879 There is no religious idealism’s that is easy to debunk. Islam is almost 2 billion strong and we had a 600 year advance. 19th century restorationist philosophy like the SDA, JW and LDS conversions far our way the Catholic rate. Humility and Prayer is what is needed most. Not braggadocio.
Whatever Heaven happens to be, I am sure these good brethren will be there, or be that, and I aspire to be there with them.
Thank you for a great - and unfortunately, rare - example of faith and goodwill towards fellow man regarding Christ. Automatic like and subscribe, and looking forward to a part 2.
Catholic here. Really enjoyed the debate. Great work on both sides. Well done.
This is a wonderful exposition. As a born and bred Catholic I am now a very grateful convert to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Further debate needs to be had on validity of baptism. See Owen Cummings in Worship 1997.
Also Catholic Purgatory and LDS Spirit World equate
Catholicism is a good nursery for the fuller scope of Mormonism...
@philliphadley5005 - can you summarize what issues in baptism ?
"Catholicism is a good nursery for the fuller scope of Mormonism..."
Praise God for revealing the spirit of pride that ruled my heart as a Mormon. I spent way too many mass experiences viewing all of those people as children who just didn't know what they were missing. It was me who didn't know the whole time. What a sneaky spirit that veils pride as holiness.
Way to go Jacob. This is the type of conversation I want to see more of in the LDS apologetic sphere.
1:25:56 With respect to Trent, he is incorrect here. It IS a false understanding of LDS theology that we get our own planet, or that we get our own anything. The Book of Moses clearly teaches that all the works in the universe are of the Father, and there is no end to them. By being divinized in the Celestial Kingdom, we become like Him, and are therefore able to participate in the endless works of creation with Him, but those works are still His. Did Jesus get His own planet? No. He did everything in the name of the Father and gave all glory to the Father. Whatever worlds are create or works we perform in the Celestial Kingdom, we will do the same and Jesus did.
Fair enough, but if we are literally God’s children, why would He withhold any of His glory and abilities from us? Given eternity upon eternity to progress, why wouldn’t those who qualify (by which I mean those in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom) eventually enjoy all the rights, powers and privileges of our almighty Heavenly Father?
@@TypeAndShadow We would. The difference is that He will still be our Father. Jesus Christ will still be the savior as well. Our theology is that we will be as they are and do as they do, but like Jesus said that he does not to anything except what He see the Father do, and even after His resurrection in the BoM when He gave glory to his Father first, that is what it will be like, I believe. They live and act in perfect unity, but Heavenly Father is still The Father and Jesus Christ is still The Son.
In any case, speculation on these things is fine and interesting, as long as we remember it is speculation and based more on reasoning than official church teaching.
Perhaps a “false understanding” of current lds theology, but Joseph Smith taught very clearly that we have each got to learn how to be gods just as “Heavenly Father” did, and his god before him, and so on.
Today’s lds church has been working diligently for awhile to bury those early teachings and moving closer to Christian understanding of God, and that’s a good thing.
@@ChaChaDancin I don’t agree that that’s what they’re doing, but even if they were why would that be a good thing?
@@ColtonJPrice a good thing because they are moving away from their cult origins and toward Christianity.
I'm Catholic, but I really enjoy listening to Jacob. I watched their debate on Pints with Aquinas, and I enjoyed it a lot. It's great to see two good people expressing their faith.
After 29 years in the lds church, I became Catholic. I love the Mormon church. Yet, it’s history and theology are flawed.
History of men who are all sinners shouldn't have a say on the glory of God and his church. The Catholic church has done quite a few not so great things, the theology also doesn't add up.
@@thehistoadian We are endowed of reason and other tools to find God and His Church. It Is unclear what you mean by "having a say on the glory of God and his church", so I cannot say much. Yet, if this means we can't be critical, then you are mistaken. Similarly, your last statement is very vague. I am not sure what you mean by "not so great things". Judas betrayed Jesus and Peter denied him. Those actions were not great, but those actions did not compromise the legitimacy of Jesus' ministry and teachings. The same is true with the Catholic Church. Feel free to let me know what parts of the theology does not add up. Since I was a devoted mormon, I may have had the same concerns that did not add up back then. Here is my favourite quote from one of the 12 apostles of the lds church "The honest investigator must be prepared to follow wherever the search of truth may lead. Truth is often found in the most unexpected places. He must, with fearless and open mind "insist that facts are far more important than any cherished, mistaken beliefs, no matter how unpleasant the facts or how delightful the beliefs.”― Hugh B. Brown
@@Vonleber-zp1oh same here, after nearly 50 years in Mormonism. I know exactly what you mean. It isn’t just that the history is “flawed” but that its history demonstrates that the organization is something other than what it claims to be. More and more people are discovering this as they gain the courage to look at the history outside of the church-approved version of it.
I feel the same way about the Catholic Church as a Latter-day Saint
💯
So awesome you were able to speak with Trent. He’s a great voice for Christ and am glad you were able to get him on the show
Love this discussion! Right around 1:16:18 I came away with profound appreciation for the LDS view of God and His identity. While we as Latter Day Saints agree with Trent that we are God’s creations, it is a MASSIVE difference knowing we are literally His children. Not only are we created in His image but we were spiritually BEGOTTEN by Him. This spiritual birth gives Latter Day Saints a unique perspective among our fellow Christians.
So very kind of Trent to have this conversation. He's definitely my favorite Catholic apologist. Perhaps in the future he could also have a few more conversations with some of our apologists. 🤞
Catholicism is Judaism fulfilled. There was not a great apostasy or Jesus was a failed prophet. Come home to the One true Church!
To say that one should be deeply ignorant about jud@!sm. If it comes down to that, the whole “Judao-Christian” moniker is an oxymoron. Controlled apologists will never reveal that, but jud@!sm is the actual opposite of anything Christian. If Catholicism is jud@!sm fulfilled, that only strongly suggests that Catholicism isn’t truly Christian.
Do some research on jud@!sm yourself before repeating the nonsense you heard/read from controlled sources.
@@zzc8505Catholicism looks like the Old Testament Jews to me.
@@jd3jefferson556 I don't see it that way, tbh. While I disagree with Sola Scriputra and will concede there needs to be some sort of "tradition," in Catholicism it seems like it's 70% of the "tradition" and 30% or less of the actual scripture. As much as I love Aristotle and admire how Aquinas "baptized" him, there is way too much just philosophical speculation which became Catholic doctrine etc. and has no connection to the scripture.
I don't want to argue, to each his/her own, people will believe whatever conforms to whatever they want to believe, but there are quite a few Catholic beliefs that are very tenuous and can only be supported by "tradition" which, in itself, is rather spurious and should be meaningless unless it is rooted solidly in the scripture. Essentially, they always use an appeal to authority, by citing this council and that council, as if the majority vote somehow means "truth."
@@zzc8505 your comment is beyond moronic and baseless from any research or knowledge whatsoever.
@@jd3jefferson556 because it is! With the messiah’s atoning grace.
Wonderful discussion, thank you so much to you both for this.
This was great. I was born and raised in Utah in an LDS family. I converted to Orthodoxy as an adult. I'd love to see a similar conversation with an Orthodox apologist or theologian.
Interested in what attracted you to Orthodoxy vs Catholicism? I went from Mormonism, explored Orthodoxy, but landed at Catholicism. Thanks!
@@ChaChaDancin I explored Catholicism too and even went through RCIA. I just couldn't stomach all the novel doctrines and dogmas added around the time of the Reformation. Orthodoxy appeared to be relatively resistant to change, although not entirely immune. I also studied the schism of 1054, and it became clear that the Roman Church was on the wrong side of that argument for various reasons too nuanced to delve into in a RUclips comment, making them the schismatics. The Filioque controversy and claims of papal supremacy were perhaps the two main issues. Just my opinion, YMMV.
Same here☦️
I am Catholic, I have an LDS co-employee and he is one of my closest buddies. We don't talk about theological stuff we just simply enjoy each other's company as children of God. I love Jacob and our boy Trent, he is always Trent.
Elder Richards quoted from a pamphlet written by Orson F. Whitney:
A Catholic Opinion.-Many years ago there came to Salt Lake City a learned doctor of divinity, a member of the Roman Catholic Church. I became well acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen, languages at his tongue’s end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy, and was never weary of displaying his vast erudition. One day he said to me: “You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestants haven’t a leg to stand on. If we are wrong, they are wrong with us, for they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we really have, as we claim, the apostolic succession from St. Peter, there was no need for Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the Gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the Gospel in latter days.” [2]
No name is given in this source, but it has been located in Elder Whitney's autobiography:
The source is Orson F. Whitney’s autobiography, Through Memory’s Halls: The Life Story of Orson F. Whitney, as Told by Himself (Independence, MO: Zion’s Printing and Publishing Company, 1930), 222-23.
The Catholic theologian’s name is John M. Reiner.
www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_What_do_we_know_about_Orson_F._Whitney%27s_%22Strength_of_the_Mormon_Position%22_claim_regarding_a_Catholic_theologian%3F
This is not really the case as the Roman church considers the Orthodox Church to be a valid church founded by Christ with valid holy orders and sacraments etc
I’m an ex Mormon now Protestant but just saying that framing it as just Catholics versus Mormons who have some type of legitimate authority claim is disingenuous as there are other churches such as the Oriental Orthodox Church Eastern Orthodox Church who whom the RCC accepts as valid apostolic churches and yet are not apart of the Roman communion and claim to be the “true church” as an ex Mormon I would literally join any purported ecclesiastical apostolic body apart from the Mormon church before I would ever rejoin the Mormon church due to the massive holes in the LDS narrative and that absolute lack of evidence of anything linking the Book of Mormon to history along with the book of Abraham being a total fraud…just my 2 cents
@nathanaronsohn8665 Going from the fulness of the gospel to Protestantism is like going from university to the third grade. Or from the fountain of living waters to a public drinking fountain at the local IHOP. Good luck with that.
Jared, I have seen this quote once before, and I thought about it through watching the entire video! Thank you so much for sharing it in the comments where I could find it!
I think that in one sense, this quote really unites Catholics and Mormons, and I love that.
I am so surprised by how many common beliefs we hold with Catholicism. I really enjoyed learning about all of that! I feel really inspired to seek God more. Thank you!
The difference between what we must not do and what we are obliged to do is in perfect accordance with LDS belief. To reject our obligations to enter into covenant with Him as revealed in scripture is to damn ourselves. It doesn’t earn us our salvation, but as James said, to know to do good and do it not, to him it is sin.
As an Evangelical I think you're the one in trouble worshipping a Godhead of idolatry.
@@davidjanbaz7728 🤷♂️ I’m not concerned with your opinion. You don’t know me, my beliefs, nor do you have any authority over which to judge me. And no, your interpretation of the Bible is not authoritative
As a Latter-Day Saint, the thing I admire the most about Catholics is their respect and honor of/for rituals. They understand that rituals are deep with symbology, and keeping rituals going is vital to one's spiritual journey.
LDS here, I agree. Catholic Mass is beautiful. We seem to have more in common with protestants in our Sunday worship, but more in common with Catholicism in our temple worship.
LDS women can be sealed by proxy to all of their previous husbands after they and their husbands are dead. We don't know what this looks like in the afterlife.
As someone whose father has passed away, and my mom is remarried, I find this so offensive 🤷♀️ She's not sealed to her current husband and nobody better do that "work" for her after she dies.
That's because the sealing is necessary, but we can't be sure to which man she would want. It's covering all the bases, IMO
An important concept that is often left out when discussing faith and works is that we believe that ALL are resurrected - regardless of covenants made. The glory of the perfected resurrected body is determined by our true desires. And we cannot raise ourselves from the dead no matter what we do - only God can do that. By His grace. I am a (Latter-day Saint)
Look forward to seeing this. My educated guess on the matter would be: 1)The keys and authority of the priesthood 2)the trinity vs the Godhead and 3)the Apostasy
The perspective of the Catholics on the apostasy would be something along the lines of the Protestant movements and so on going against the church etc. The apostasy is the main focal point of the debate between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Catholics. The different interpretation of the apostasy is where all of the divergent views come from.
Catholic here. Here's how I see each group's approach to apostasy.
Protestant: the whole church apostasized, but it doesn't matter.
LDS: the whole church apostasized so the church had to be reestablished.
Catholic: the whole Church has never apostasized (both since Jesus promised it wouldn't and because we can see Catholic teaching and apostolic succession have been consistent and maintained over 2,000 years.)
@@jacobecklund3651A Catholic being ignorant of Protestant teachings : NOT surprising.
The Reformation is just that a reform movement: it didn't claim the Catholic went into a Total Apostasy until Catholics started their persecution of Protestants : Like the St. Bartholomew day Massacre in France where 10, 000 non Catholics were killed with the approval of the king.
Catholics had political dominance and used that against Protestants so these R 2 separated issues depending on Catholic persecution of each different Protestant group.
Luther didn't want to leave but had to flee or be killed by Catholics.
Protestants do not generally believe the church ever apostatized. They’re main drivers always preached reform, not restoration. You may be thinking mostly of the Anabaptists of which the LDS have a lot of roots with.
@@jacobecklund3651 Very interesting and very fair points. I think you are totally correct. My comments below showcase an LDS perspective on your comments.
I think we LDS would say a few things regarding the idea that the Church wouldn't apostatize:
1. Christ was referring to revelation as the rock after which he named Peter (since Jesus was talking about revelation from God right before giving Peter his name) and that revelation would be the rock upon which Christ built His Church, not Peter (after all, Peter was martyred). Also, that as Chief Apostle, Peter would be the one to receive the revelation that would guide Christ's Church which he did for example when it was revealed to him on the roof that it was now acceptable to God for them to eat pork.
2. We would say that in the ultimate sense, the gates of hell did not prevail against Christ's Church because it was restored after having gone into apostasy through loss of priesthood keys that the Apostles held that Bishops did not hold.
3. The apostasy of the Church was happening even in Paul's day and there were many epistles written that we have in the New Testament to correct the parts of the Church that were rotting.
4. The fact that the Apostles held a higher priesthood authority and the keys of apostleship that were not bestowed on Bishops, meaning Bishops could continue running the Church (as they did) but they did not have the same authority as Apostles who held the priesthood right to receive revelation from Christ and God for the Church and the world. This is why the Pope is called the First Bishop of Rome. He does not have the priesthood authority of an Apostle as Jesus Christ ordained.
Since the Apostles held higher authority than Bishops, it would be difficult to claim that apostolic succession continued when apostles, their priesthood authority, keys and positions didn't continue. It would be like claiming if all the Catholic Bishops were killed off, that Catholic Priests could do everything that Catholic Bishops could do and continuing the Church from there. Obviously something would be lost.
As LDS we see this as proof that the original Church lost the presiding priesthood keys & authority to continue the Church and thus the necessitation of a Restoration of the Church--new wine in new wineskins as it were.
I meant no offense with this comment - hopefully you can clarify or add comments to this from your perspective. This dialogue is good.
@@davidjanbaz7728Why would that event constitute apostasy of the whole Church?
Former 6 generation Mormon here, the doctrine on Poligamy in the D & C states clearly that poligamy is their Eternal Covenant. Mormons that practice polygamy are only doing what their scripture says! They are the truest of Mormons. Read their doctrine and covenants and you will see. it’s never been removed they believe clearly, and plainly that polygamy is the eternal covenant. Their church doesn’t practice it any longer, but it’s still laid bare in their scriptures for all to see. Mormons are precious people, and the ones who practice polygamy are only trying to live (their) eternal gospel that Joseph Smith lived. And I pray for them.🙏🏻
1:22:59 - Kolob is a represetation of Jesus Christ. It's how God taught Abraham the order of Heaven in Abraham 5, using something he was samiliar with - astrology. Probably not an actual place.
That’s a really interesting thought.
Joseph Smith and other Mormon leaders have taught something different from what you’re teaching.
I worked on a project for the church that had to define all the circumstances where people can be sealed.
Women can in fact be sealed to more than one man, just not in mortality.
It seems to me that a sealing is a promise of an eternal marriage, but not an actual realization of it.
There's a great book by an LDS author that shows that there is perfect harmony between the prophetic statements concerning the garden of Eden being in Missouri and the Old Testament account concerning the garden of Eden. It's called Canaan, Babylon, and Egypt A Comparative Theological Analysis on Creation sold by Eborn Books.
As someone in Missouri eden certainly aint in this state 😂
Lmao
Pretty sure the Tigris and Euphrates rivers aren’t in Missouri, but I’m not a geography expert.
I also grew up in Missouri. We called it “misery” lol
@@A-ARonYeager😂😂😂😂😂
Let’s rely on our work for salvation together 🤝
dude... a premiere at Midnight?
Speak for yourself. It was 2am here. He does this frequently though lol
@@hardwork8395 people in Reno are weird
@@WARDRADIOas your friendly atheist subscriber, that is one more point that we agree on.
Right?!?! Cardon. Like what are you doing. I need to sleep.
@@WARDRADIOmust be a midnight Mormon then LOL
This might be the best interfaith video I’ve ever seen, great job
What a wonderful discussion . . . at some point honest hearted people will come to "a unity of faith"; I believe that.
There is no official doctrine on what happens to having multiple spouse in the next life. There is a lot of speculation. So a clarification for Jacob, living women can only be sealed to one husband, while they are alive. However, when doing sealings for the dead, women are sealed to every man they were legally married to. According to Elder Maxwell, it is one of the things that will be resolved in the eternities so we don't need to worry about it.
Nope. Women can only be sealed “for time and eternity” to one man. If the husband dies, the woman can be re-married and sealed “for time only” to that man.
Men can be sealed “for time and eternity” to more than one woman in a similar scenario.
Unless the doctrine has changed in the past few years since I left the Mormon organization. They do that.
@@ChaChaDancin The very first time I went to the temple, back in the mid 80s, I was proxy for my grandfather, while I had two cousins who were proxy for my grandmother's first two husbands. The has never been a limit on how many times a wife can be sealed to husbands. The only limit, as I stated before, is that a living woman can only be sealed to one living man.
Neither the doctrine nor policy has changed, you were just apparently ignorant of sealing policies.
You seem to be confusing policies for the living with those for work for the dead.
@@brettmajeske3525 you didn’t catch the nuance of what I said. There are different types of sealings.
Besides, they have changed the temple ordinances many times over the years.
But you’re probably right, if Joseph Smith’s exploits are a guide, I’m sure Mormon heaven will be like a giant swinger’s club.
@@ChaChaDancin There is no nuance in your response, unless you think conflating proxy and living ordinance policies is nuance. I was specific and explicit in my topic and example, and your response dealt with neither. While there have been policy and presentation changes, the one I mention has been around since at least the 1950s, so your ignorance could not be based on any such changes.
I said nothing to indicate that Heaven would be a swingers club, I said how difficulties will be resolved is unknown in detail. Is English not your native language, you seem to have problem with language comprehension.
Great discussion! I always enjoy discussions from differences in perspectives. Hopefully we're open and allow time to dive deeper into classical philosophy as that is the key to understanding reality.
Been waiting on this one. Maybe one day these two forces (churches) will grow closer in latter days.
In Christianity, God is Ultimate Reality. In Mormonism, God is like the Buddha: he does not determine the conditions of existence but discovers within existence what he thinks are the pre-existing law of existence. Mormonism does not have a Christian doctrine of creation but a doctrine of organization. As with so many things, Christians and Mormons use the same words but the dictionaries are very different.
I have been a member of the LDS faith and recently was baptized in the Catholic Church and this is so heart warming for me. Jacob you and Watcher Palmer are still my favorite LDS RUclipsRS! And Trent, you just got a new subscriber. The SSPX also has a really good apologetics on LDS faith. I will also say I witnessed much more reverence in my LDS friends. I am at a novus ordos now but going to try the SSPX AND FSSP. So fortunate to have all three near by! Keep up these discussions! Who says the laity can't change the world. ❤
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Hi!! I just wanted to let you know that while the SSPX embraces Catholic tradition, they are not in communion with Rome and therefore not a valid form of the Mass to attend. The FSSP is wonderful as is the Novus Ordo! Just want you to be careful when attending the SSPX! Laudem Dei 💕
@@bellanaftal listen to Kennedy Hall sometime 😊
FSSP! 🙏