To me the HUGE win was when Trent claimed that the character sheet was falsely reported to be genuine by the scholar so that Martin Harris could feel better about having mortgaged his farm to finance the printing of The Book of Mormon and to recoop his money... Only to then be told that Harris mortgaged the farm AFTER his encounter with the scholar and that he left more convinced than ever of the autenticity of the book which led him to make that financial desision.
@mattc1647 this actually shows how much of a dupe Martin was because Charles Anthon told him he couldn’t read the characters because they weren’t authentic characters and he thought Joseph Smith could and that Joseph knew more than the learned.
@thekolobsociety Mr Carroll, will you honestly read Isaiah 29 in context and admit it has nothing to with the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, or Martin Harris? The text literally tells you it’s about Jerusalem. Please compare the Dead Sea scrolls version written before Jesus and compare it to Joseph Smith translation. He literally adds dozens of verses that just isn’t there. It’s verifiable.
@@kuriju88 woah partner... What evidence do you have that is what Harris thought after visiting Anthon... Surely you didn't just make something up with no evidence or claim to read this man's thoughts?
@TheAlchemist1 there are many sources and this is the story that Joseph tried to push that the learned could not read the characters but that he, the humble farm boy, could. First they went to Dr Mitchell that was the expert and he said he couldn’t read them and then went to Charles Anthon, who was an expert in Greek. He wouldn’t have authenticated them because he didn’t know any Egyptian. They were just squiggles anyway. The story later evolved to say that he said they were Arabic, Egyptian, Chaldaic, and Assyrian.
@@VICTOR7oh2 tbh, it’s because Jeff can’t defend himself. All he has is straw men and misrepresentations. Saw a video of their service, it’s honestly a bit… culty…
First, off, the visuals and the audio intro is FIRE! It’s smooth. I have many thoughts on the debate, and I think you did fine. As an atheist, I think I’m a little more objective since I have no skin in this debate, either way here. I think you could have relied less on tu quoque, as I see that too much in these types of debates, and it’s not philosophically compelling-though, it can be rhetorically compelling in certain moments, of deployed judiciously for effect. 1) I believe you successfully defended against nearly all his objections 2) I think you didn’t present a strong enough case to meet your burden, though you made some compelling points, that I mostly don’t think Trent answered well. 3) Trent made a couple tiny points that went unanswered, as they were conflated with stereotypical anti-Mormon rhetoric, so his nuance was lost; but I don’t think they are enough to actually make a substantive impact to anything. 4) Trent was poorly prepared. I know far more than him about the BoM, as an atheist, and I don’t think he gave it the serious attention it deserves to critique it; my opinion here is based on his-even to me-underpreparation for the required knowledge in this subject. 5) while Jacob didn’t meet his burden, only on a technicality could I have awarded Trent this debate. If I’m going off the sum total of everyone’s performance, Jacob won this, hands down. Both sides did score points in either direction. It was mostly painful to hear Trent, whom I respect as an intellectual, drop the ball and also be so ignorant in regard to this material. Trent needs to stick to philosophical debate. He shines there. He’s not good at whatever this was. I want to see Jacob debate him on epistemology or metaphysics. That would be fascinating.
I agree with you completely here. While Jacob did a great job responding to Trent, I don't think he provided a strong enough case for the Divinity of the Book of Mormon. That said, I am totally okay with that because, as a practicing Latter-Day Saint, I think the only true way to know the book is divine is by reading it with an open heart and asking God if it is his word. When it comes to spiritual matters, I find it is best to find answers through the spirit (though logic can definitely help solidify faith).
In 1 Cor 12:3 it says "3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost". An Atheist , Muslim, Bhuddist ,etc may read the scriptures cover to cover but might not believe in its truthfulness if they will just rely on their own understanding, The Holy Ghost who is the testator of all truths will manifest the truthfulness of things to all those who honestly seek it. John 16 "13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come".
@@dallintheriault9747 I'm curious what would constitute Jacob winning to you. Better offense? Better defense? Different argument? Could he have even won it because ultimately it is a spiritual matter?
I think that's a perfect analysis. Jacob was catering to his audience and opponent i.e. a person that already believes in God. Even the debate question assumes divine inspiration exists. The goal for the atheist was more to show that the Book of Mormon should be taken as seriously as the Bible. While we ultimately disagree with the atheists, we can appreciate their consistency.
I think Trent was not ready for the volume of strong evidence presented, so his only course of action to save face was to deny the strength of that evidence, despite its overwhelming nature. Choosing to spin rather than concede when no refutation was possible made him seem overly partisan, lacking even a modicum of objectivity. As my father puts it, "there are none so blind as those that don't want to see". Trent seems like a guy who would stop his ears and gouge out his eyes if God appeared before him to testify of The Book of Mormon.
@vannersp Trent was plenty ready for this debate. It seems that the majority of Jacob’s defense came from essentially saying, “we don’t know yet” as a response to give an account for languages that haven’t been discovered, topography that hasn’t been found, characters that haven’t been displayed anywhere in history, etc. Just being fair…
For the past 190 years the church has been endlessly mocked for saying horses existed in the Americas before Columbus. Then in the last three years archeologists discovered that there were horses here before Columbus. Did anyone stop and say wow you guys were right this whole time? No they just move on to the next thing we don’t know yet. That’s why Jacob said that. Because for 190 years Joseph keeps being proven right on more and more things.
Hey @jaydavis1165! Thank you for your reply. I’m not trying to mock the LDS church so forgive me if my comment was received that way. I’m also not ultimately interested in anachronisms that are later proven not to be anachronisms (the Biblical canon has had the same accusations happen that later get proven wrong). My ultimate concern is testimony given to a different God, different Jesus, and different gospel. While I do believe Trent is correct in his presentation of evidence against the Book of Mormon, and I think this is helpful in providing credibility against it, I think the ultimate issue ends up being whether or not the nature, attributes, and persons of Yahweh in the biblical canon turn out to be completely consistent with that of the Book of Mormon (as well as D&C; PGP, since these are considered scripture by Latter Day Saints as well).
Mormon brother When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what? Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas Read early church
@@DUZCO10 There are eye witness accounts of people seeing angels at temples, saints being healed and other miracles occurring throughout church history. Whether you choose to believe those accounts is up to you just like whether you choose to believe the miracles in the bible happened or think of them as larger than life stories.
@DUZCO10 Miracles still occurred according to the faith of those who were healed, even as it was in the apostolic age. We do not deny that. What we claim is that the structure and authority to recieve new, public revelation that was applicable for the whole church and Kingdom, the authority to decide on ecumenical issues above the level.of a bishop, and the authority to maintain consistency of the performance, recording, and order of saving ordinances to fulfill the desires of the organization of the Kingdom was shattered sometime prior to Nicea. Most likely with the rejections and martyrdoms of the apostles.
@Samuel-et7bd Thanks but I'm asking about Joseph Smith miracles. Jesus performed miracles of healings before multitudes so that we would believe. John 10:37-38 "Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father. Jesus is urging people to consider the miracles He performed as evidence of His unity with the Father, even if they struggle to believe His words alone. What miracles did Joseph Smith perform before multitudes?
Absolutely phenomenal witnessing and testifying Jacob! Thank you for raising the bar for all of us and setting a powerful and beautiful example of declaring the everlasting gospel! Thank you brother for the influential work you are doing!
My thoughts: 1. The first half of the debate, Trent was just throwing lots of old, rehashed anti LDS arguments at Jacob and he wasn't given enough time to respond to them all. (or he didn't respond quickly enough to address them all.) 2. The back-and-forth question section is where Jacob started to take over the debate. From then on Jacob had Trent on the ropes, and exposed his lack understanding of the robust rebuttals of the things he was bringing up. 3. But to Trent's credit, he brought up the one thing that Jacob could have done much earlier to get a knockout... His personal Testimony. Trent said that personal testimony is the strongest argument for the Book of Mormon, and the whole time I was thinking, "why doesn't Jacob focus on the only infallible way to know if the Book of Mormon is inspired by God? (i.e. God himself)" 4. Jacob finally shares his testimony in his final statement, but He could have explained earlier why God is the ultimate source of truth and that is why he believes in both the Book of Mormon and the Bible. Having said that, kudos to Jacob for doing a great job, it's easy to Monday morning QB these things.
You did really well 👍. I got frustrated with some of his arguments because some were just uninformed like the Martin Harris mortgaging his farm for example. Also the most triggering argument critics make is when they say Joseph Smith died in a ‘shootout’. He was murdered by 200 people while sitting in a jail cell. It’s not like he and his friends took some guns down to the local saloon. Just give him some dignity and admit he was murdered by a mob.
Mormon brother When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what? Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas Read early church
@andrewolsen2711 - Had we learned the Truth back then about the Egyptian Funerary Text Joseph would have been strung up on the closest tree and would never have made it to the 'shootout'. As it is now we have to live with the fallout of disgrace and cognitive dissonance deconstruct from living centuries of lies!
@@DUZCO10Great question! I’m no expert, but I would definitely say around the end of the 1st and the beginning of the 2nd, the Great Apostasy started to unfold. For starters, all of Christ’s Apostles died or were martyred, and with them, the keys of Christ’s kingdom were lost. So, if we are talking about loss of priesthood authority and apostolic collapse, that is roughly when it happened. With the death of the apostles, prophetic guidance disappeared. But, in reality, the Great Apostasy isn’t simply a one time event. Following their deaths, churches continued to splinter and fracture away from the main body of Christ’s church. Also, corrupted ideas began sneaking into the church. For example, the Trinity, infant baptism, etc. Biblical scholars admit that many Christians began integrating the ideas of Greek philosophers into Christian thought which corrupted the pure words of Christ. After many hundreds of years, it took non Christian led, political councils to debate and compromise on what Christians believed. This pattern of decision making isn’t the Lord Jesus Christ’s way. Many books have been written on the subject. I definitely suggest you read several of them.
@@DUZCO10as to your second question, you should definitely read more in depth on the history of the Restoration of Christ’s Church. There are hundreds of accounts of visions, healings, revelations, angelic visitations, and so forth. It’s not just a divinely inspired book. It’s so much more! God poured out so many more miracles than the Book of Mormon.
@@DUZCO10hi brother, not sure where you get the idea that there is competition between the miracles of Jesus and the miracles of the restoration. We believe that God is a God of miracles and everything said about Jesus and the miracles in the Bible we believe in. God bless!
One thing I have been trying to wrap my head around is that all other christian denominations put SO much weight on logic and historical evidence and seem to reject a spiritual witness.
From an atheist position, I’ve talked to and debated countless religious people for decades, and my experience bears out what you’ve said, though I’ll explain. My experience is that within the context of a conversation, especially from a believer to another believer, religious experience can be shared and accepted; however, interdenominational (or believer/unbeliever) discussions often turn more to debate tactics, where reason and evidence gains priority. Edit- a note in apologetics: aside from the few reformed Christians who like presuppositional apologetics, many more Christians tend to use evidential apologetics. So they may emphasize the importance of philosophical or historical argumentation, etc.
I made this point in the comments of the original video and was surprised that someone responded basically saying that you can’t trust your experience with the Holy Ghost because it’s easy to be fooled… found it fascinating that a believer in Christ would try to introduce doubt when it comes to the Holy Ghost, but the reality is that the vast majority of them have not asked God if their church is his church or if the teaching are true. It’s all logic/tradition to them.
@@ToqTheWise That passage isn't about revelation, it's about Loyalty. God is saying that only He can know where men's true allegiance lies. 7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. 8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit. 9 ¶ The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Thank you Jacob, love the time and effort you put in to defending your faith. Calling the MOB murder of Joseph and Hyrum a shootout was a pathetic and a sad comment by a hater. Peace to all.
Jacob, you totally killed it, brother! Well done! I wish i could shake your hand and give you a hug for the great defense and testimony of the Book of Mormon!
Jacob you did such a fantastic job defending the faith. I think Trent Horn seriously underestimated you. Your performance and delivery was much better in my opinion.
Absolutely Incredible Work: /testimony Jacob! My jaw hit the floor when you immediately started cookin 🧑🍳 There’s no way that our Catholic brother’s & sisters do not feel the Spirit from those powerful words brother
I couldn't believe that Trent Horn - not once, but twice! - said that the fact that secular culture isn't as acquainted with the stories of the Book of Mormon as it is with the Bible is evidence that the Book of Mormon isn't well-written, complex, or inspiring. No, actually, it has to do with the clear historical difference - the Bible has been in circulation much longer, and for most of American history it was not only studied by nearly all citizens in their private lives, but was taught in schools. The Book of Mormon was not. That's why even secular people have a passing familiarity with the Bible but not with the Book of Mormon. Trent should know better.
If you watch enough of Trent’s videos, you’ll notice he’s not averse to sophistry and/or copping out/straw manning the LDS or any other point that runs contrary to or may undermine Catholicism as an institution in particular. And he cops out and/or glosses over the inconsistencies in Catholic doctrine/theology.
Jacob! You did so well on this debate. Such a well formulated and defended argument! And you concluded it with genuine testimony. Bless you brother. So proud to call you a brother in Christ.
Mormon brother When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what? Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas Read early church
@DUZCO10 spamming the same comment on like a dozen comments here smh. Why does the BOM need to one up Christ's miracles? Can't be divine if it doesn't have "better" miracles? Imagine if it did you'd be saying look at this fake book trying to outdo Christ himself!!
@@carsonhawkes Malachi 3:6 "I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."* This verse emphasizes God's unchanging nature and His faithfulness to His promises. What healing miracles did Joseph Smith perform to prove his msg was divine?
@DUZCO10 have you done your research or just asking questions. You'd know if you looked into it. However just like Christ commanded many to not go and tell if his miracles to those healed Joseph wasn't followed around by scribes. And finally show me all the times every biblical prophet healed. You can't
@carsonhawkes Abraham Healing: Healing Abimelech’s Household from Barrenness (Genesis 20:17-18) Elijah Healing: Reviving the Widow’s Son (1 Kings 17:17-24) Elisha Healing: Cleansing Naaman of Leprosy (2 Kings 5:1-14) Moses Healing: Healing of Miriam’s Leprosy (Numbers 12:10-15) Isaiah Healing: The Extension of Hezekiah’s Life (2 Kings 20:1-11) Joseph Smith Healing miracle? He wrote a good book? Just an honest question
Mormon brother When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what? Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas Read early church
Excellent job! As someone who is a fan of both Jacob and Trent, this debate (and even more so your discussion with him that preceded it) was testimony-strengthening. Your facts and evidence were great, but perhaps even more than that the contrast of the two theologies and cosmologies was really such an inspiring reminder of the goodness, truth, and beauty of the restored gospel.
Trent really shouldn't throw stones when he lives in a glass house. The catholic church is the easiest to prove it's not God's church. The corruption alone through the centuries would prove that.
There is corruption In Mormonism too and at the end of the debate, even Jacob himself said corrupt men don't make an entire religion false. You have to look at the religions doctrines and where it came from.
When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what? Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas Read early church
@@DUZCO10 If you are earnest in your search for this answer look into what we say. I have found many videos and teachings that answer this. the comment section is not a school room for learning it is impossible to answer all the questions you have in it (believe me I have tried) so if you actually want to learn seek out for the answer not in comments but through searching. but if this is just here so that you can feel justified that you cant be answered then I hope you find your self closer to god in what ever you believe.
@wheels636 that's what I always find interesting about the exmos that join the Catholic Church while denouncing the LDS church. Like dudes, did you look into the history of the new church you joined?
Mormon brother When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what? Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas Read early church
@@DUZCO10 you did not see miracles? Ask yourself "why"... Because it is you have no Miracles hehehe 🤗😁😅 repent in billions of times.. bow your head to God(before God's ) cleanse yourself before him.. your sinner. Sacrifice your soul as an offering unto God... ask him not unto us. Don't easy on me folks.
”Wherever the bishop shall appear, there, let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the *Catholic Church.* “ (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter 8) -St. Ignatius of Antioch, 107 AD
So many beneficial principles in the Book of Mormon. Even the war chapters show perseverance and bravery with principles to bring order to nations and dissenters in a noble way, fighting for freedoms and liberty. These principles are how peace is achieved, people are inspired, and liberties are obtained.
Really got Trent flustered in the cross-examination. Great job! Though you could have corrected him that LDS charitable giving does not include tithing donations. But I really enjoyed that you got him to flip flop on his rhetoric between Catholicism and the restored gospel. “Witnesses are good! Wait, witnesses are bad! Visions are good! Wait, visions are bad! “Jesus said so” is good! Wait, “Jesus said so” is bad!” Etc. Excellent rhetorical control that exposes Catholic blindness.
I viewed the entire podcast! You won hands down in spades-but then again I’m biase. I admire your knowledge of our faith and have much for learn from you and other LDS podcasters.
Mormon sister When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what? Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas Read early church
Dear brother, you should be directing your questions to Jacob. I’m sure he can answer ANY questions you may have with much more clarity and accuracy. 🕊️
Mormon brother When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what? Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas Read early church
@peter10562 so the church founded by Christ only lasted a generation? How is that? Have your Read early church? Abraham, Moses performed miracles as prophets. Jesus Christ performed multiple miracles. Yet the church he started died in a generation.
@@DUZCO10 Great Question and point. I don’t know all the answers to your question but what I do know is that Heavenly Father answers questions to prayers. I prayed to Him and the answers He gave me was clear. How do I know it’s clear? Because I lived a life of sin. Now I live a life of service to my GOD and His children. Glorifying the name of His beloved son Jesus Christ!
@@DUZCO10 How much of the New Testament records the Apostles needing to correct and pull back against false doctrine and sin? After their death, the Church was racked by dissension schism, and heresy. Just because people have seen miracles does not guarantee they will stand faithful. Else there would not have been a golden calf in Sini.
You did a great job. I was a little disappointed with Trent. He seemed to kind of phone this in. He demonstrated that he is quite misinformed on the subject. His arguments are extremely simple to deconstruct by anyone with source knowledge of the Book of Mormon and church history. But he was at least respectful. Trent is a good guy, but I wish he took this more seriously.
I don't think Trent is an expert on the topic of the Mormon church, I'd cut him some slack if you felt he phoned it in... probably didn't take the whole thing very seriously
Trent also seemed emotional and flustered during the cross examination. Probably came in a little prideful of simple Catholic retorts carrying him through, and they didn’t work. “Can I finish please” like bro, learn what a cross-examination is
I appreciate there are members like you who can engage with this type of dialogue. Exploring the Book of Mormon as inspired of God is exceptionally reasonable for the faithful 🫶🏼
I agree. I think the average person needs to talk outside of echo chambers. It helps people be kinder, better humans, and they become far more informed of other’s and their own beliefs-it’s a win-win.
What a great show. I'm fully subscribed, Thumbs up, I will share this video, and am now commenting on it. The Book Of Mormon is True and Joseph Smith is a true Prophet of as us Russell M. Nelson is today. With fond regards brother Powers.
It will be nice when one day Trent will know the truth, as all eventually will. Then he will know the Book of Mormon IS the record of those whom Jesus spoke of in John 10:16: “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” Were the people on THIS continent to have nothing to do with the Lord? In Ezekiel 37: 16-17 it says, “Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.” The stick of Judah is the Bible and the stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon.
The Pints with Aquinas guy (sorry not familiar with his name) did a phenomenal job at moderation. I wish all moderators would learn from his example. At times I really wanted to reach through my screen and answer Trent's questions in more detail, because he got away with a lot of out of context, cherry picked quotes. For example, when David Whitmer said God told him to leave, it wasn't about leaving the church, (he had already been excommunicated) it was about leaving the area of Far West, Missouri where the Saints were. I believe God did tell him to leave that area, for his own safety. There had arisen a rogue group of vigilantes among the members and his life may have been in danger by them. Trent tries to make it sound like God told Whitmer to leave the church so he can present a false paradox that if you believe David was a witness, why don't you believe him when he said God told him to leave? But this is false because he had already been excommunicated. God didn't tell him to leave the church, just to get out of that area. It seems to escape Trent that the fact that Whitmer was excommunicated, but he never denies his witness of the Angel and the plates, and the Book of Mormon only strengthens his witness of the Book of Mormon. He had every reason to expose Joseph as fraud and was offered political appointments and other things if he would. But he never would. He was true to his Testimony. Also, David Whitmer didn't just have an impression. He was very clear in many statements that he saw "with these eyes" and he held the plates "with these hands". It wasn't "second site" or an illusion. How do you have multiple people see the exact same "hallucination" at the same time? So much more could be said about this. But just look at Whitmer's actual statements in total, not just one secondhand statement. Having said that, kudos to Jacob and Trent for the debate.
Trent was just making stuff up out of desperation to win the debate because those 16 names that Jacob brought up are not found in the writings of Jospehus. Book of Mormon proper names that are attested from Hebrew inscriptions. Names included are Sariah, Alma, Abish, Aha, Ammonihah, Chemish, Hagoth, Himni, Isabel, Jarom, Josh, Luram, Mathoni, Mathonihah, Muloki, and Sam-none of which appear in English Bibles.
Jacob, I’m always a little critical- sorry about that, but I wanted to take a second to tell you thank you for doing this debate. You were phenomenal and you really do have a wide range of knowledge and proofs and history stored away not just to find later but you are able to recall it and recite it. Great work!
A little joke from Isaak Asimov who was not a Mormon. The Pope had called together a meeting of the cardinals and said, "I have some good news for you and some bad news. The good news is this. Our blessed Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, has returned to earth for the long-awaited Second Coming, and the Day of Judgment is at hand." There was an exalted silence for a few moments and then one cardinal said, "But Holy Father, with good news like that, what's the bad news?" The Pope mopped his forehead with his handkerchief and said, "The information has reached us from Salt Lake City."
Interesting framing. The contention is that belief is reasonable. To that end, no poont made in favor of the Book of Mormon needs to be proof. Its just that there is enough, plausible evidence, that taken together, belief is a rational conclusion (not necessarily a compulsory conclusion). Trents position simply assumes the opposite interpretation of each point of evidence. Those positions cant actually dis"prove" one another.
There is a book written by Trent Horn titled "When Protestants Argue like Atheist" I won't be surprised if a similar sounding book would be written with title "When Catholics Argue like Atheist" inspired by this debate.
Protestant here so I may not be completely unbiased (in fact current LDS apologists will probably label me anti-mormon without a second thought). I moved to Utah recently and have been looking for LDS apologetic since I arrived and have been mostly disappointed until the year or so. Good on the current LDS generation for actually making a try at defending your faith! That said - I’d have to give a nominal win to Trent. It could easily have been a stronger win but Trent gave Jacob a little too much space in cross-exam to direct the conversation with his non-sequiturs, and could have had a little more preparation on details of the witnesses that Jacob was sure to bring up. Jacob did well and was certainly cheerful and confident so he presented well, but what I think LDS apologetic culture is still working on is that it’s not enough to just have a strong response. In this forum it needs to be sound reasoning and can’t rely on false equivalencies or ad hominems. For example: Jacob’s only strong ‘mic drop’ moment is the comparison of number of witnesses between the gold plates and Jesus’ resurrection. But was I the only screaming that’s almost completely irrelevant?! Ok so you have 19 people who testified to seeing some kind of plates; but there are very few, if any, additional witnesses to the events the BoM describes. Jacob is comparing quantity of witnesses to his book’s autograph copy, as compared to Trent’s number of witnesses of the described event (someone rising from the dead). Why not compare apples to apples, like the number of confirmed archaeological features of the bible to the number of confirmed archaeological features of the BoM? Jacob kept going back to the one feature, Nahom, because he just doesn’t have many more. Sorry, Jacob, just because you say something with a chuckle and with full conviction that you’re striking a bullseye, that doesn’t make it a successful attack. By the way - did Joseph Smith even use those plates, around which one of your major arguments was centered, to “translate” the BoM? Too bad Trent wasn’t ready for that attack and took the blow; he should have been ready switch tactics to draw out that swing-and-a-miss in his cross-exam.
Just think, Trent has went toe to toe with titans of other faiths. From James White to Matt Dillahunty. Our very own Jacob Hansen is the latter day titan that brought him down and showed that the Book of Mormon can be defended with sound arguments.
I think he should debate those other two. Jacob would have good chemistry. I think it would be very entertaining and informative. Jacob needs to debate theology with Trent. I think he’s got a good road ahead for him.
@ProdigalSonMatt except for a lot of the rebuttals that Jacob had aren’t true. He needs to debate an ex Mormon that wasn’t a lazy learner and actually knows why those apolegetics fail. Horn just wasn’t familiar enough with those
Why would we expect to find a genetic relation to ancient Israel in Native Americans when God explicitly says that their curse removed their ancestry to it in Alma 3:17 "I will set a mark upon him that fighteth against thee and thy seed. And again, I say he that departeth from thee shall no more be called thy seed" Remember that God has the power to literally change our family lineage. "God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Luke 3:8-9
I lost it from the first question. I was excited until the first question where he had the audacity to still double down on the theory that Joseph Smith randomly predicted the name of King Zedekiah’s son. These guys are delusional for sure, and I think there’s just something evil about starring directly at the sun and turning around to say it does not exist because you can’t touch it.
I may be the idiot in the comment section, but I’m having a hard time following cause of the way you worded it. Are you talking about Jacob doubling down that Joseph did predict that or Trent doubling down that he didn’t?
@@brandonl2555 i see what you mean. I'm sorry for that. I was talking about the guy who is against JS. I think the claims that they are making sound more incredible than the actual story Joseph Smith told. To say this ignorant young man made so many random claims accurately by the pure genius of his mind is incredible.
Mormon brother When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what? Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas Read early church
@DUZCO10 The first century apostolic church apostatized as soon as they rejected the uniting apostolic authority, and began participating in and prescribing ordinances and requiring assent to beliefs in a non divinely approved way.
Great debate for you Jacob. I was disappointed Trent went for Gish Gallop tactics revolving around LDS theology rather than the actual book. Trents argument is "Rome true so BoM must be false."
Really got Trent flustered in the cross-examination. Great job! Though you could have corrected him that LDS charitable giving does not include tithing donations.
Jacob Hansen should have added the most important aspect of the Book of Mormon and that is its dozens of restored truths contained within, the fulness of the gospel. The best evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon are these restored truths. The best evidence that Joseph did not author the Book of Mormon is that Joseph did not know or understand these restored truths, sometimes years or even decades after the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Examples include, the Godhead, Jesus Christ's role as intercessory, the infinite atonement, the plan of salvation including the premortal reality, our probationary state, the spirit world and resurrection, the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, the temple, the preparatory and Melchizedek Priesthood, the structure of the Church, priestcrafts, those baptized are numbered with the House of Israel and the blessings pertaining to the HOI, etc, etc...
Trent’s open statement was so insincere I had to dip. First off Native American language has been tied to Hebrew multiple times from multiple cultures. Second, Joseph Smith predicting the Civil War 30 years prior was actually an incredible achievement - however the fact that Joseph knew that it would be South Carolina to start it all makes it flat out prophetic. Trent in ability to even give it. Some form of credit ended up just discrediting him and my eyes. And that makes it a hard debate to listen to when one of the parties is not being sincere.
There is zero similarly between any known native American language and Hebrew. Most native cultures didn't even have a written language. Joseph Smith also didn't just predict a civil war, he predicted a global war, which never occurred. Many political theorists and common people foresaw a civil war. Newspapers at the time reveal this perception. Thinkers like Alexis de Tocqueville even predicted a civil war well before Joseph. South Carolina happened to be considered the most rebellious Southern state due to the rhetoric of its politicians and citizens. The point being, Joseph Smith never predicted anything significant in any exact detail for it to be considered prophetic, in fact many of his predictions were wrong. A reasonable guess or generalized statement is not prophetic.
@bbqbros3648 - Do LDS people actually believe that Jews would use the pagan language text of the Egyptians (their enslavers) to WRITE SCRIPTURE rather than their own native/sacred Hebrew language text? You guys have been living in a cave - Step out into the Light of Truth - Will be praying for you all to find the Real and Living Christ Jesus who desires to give you Eternal Life in and through Him!
When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what? Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas Read early church
I actually thought trent had a good question regarding if the book of Mormon could fit on the gold plates based on what we know about their size. Does anyone have theories how it all fit? I know Jacob has some ideas, but I'd love to learn more.
I wanna share my personal testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. It is the word of God just as the Bible is the word of God. And I testify that anyone who reads it and abides by its precepts will grow closer to God and his son Jesus Christ. It has absolutely changed my life and I'm unbelievably grateful for it
I believe The Book of Mormon is the word of God. Its words invite me to Christ and to follow Him and believe and trust in Christ for my salvation and return back to my Father in Heaven.
Jacob, it was such great job on the debate. Nicely done. I would say that for future debates that any of us have with our friends, we have a much stronger foot to stand on if we have more familiarity with the Heartland Model of the Book of Mormon. There are many of Trent's and other's questions that we get stumped on if we think the book of mormon took place in meso america. I truly think meso america is where testimonies go to die if you pursue it to it's ends. The only good DNA evidence is in North America, it has all 12 required natural items required to live the law of moses in north america when meso america only has one, it was against the law of moses to build stairs especially at their alters so they would build ramps instead, there's hebrew writing in the mounds of North America, there are dozens of military forts with walls and earth ditches in North America, the ocean currents take them to North America with a shorter Atlantic crossing from Yemen, the mississippi river system is the largest navigable river system in the world and the Nephites did much by the way of shipping, the north america tribes around the great lakes still claim they have the old temple endowment ceremony, there are skeletons of north american Giants, and skeletons encased in full armor with swords as well. They are also doing digs across the river from Nauvoo, where joseph said to start a city and call it zarahemla and found a massive city there that shows it was a walled city the size of London at that time in world history, they see this through lidar like they are using in the meso american jungles. I used to be a meso American guy even going on tours there, but in the few years I have spent looking up evidence in North America I have gathered up like 2 orders of magnitude more evidence than all the years prior that I spent looking in meso america, and the more I looked there the worse the evidence got. The more I look at North America the better the evidence gets. I don't have to argue about Tapirs and horses because historians are now admitting that the Native Americans had them before the spanish came here. So a horse in the BOM is probably just a horse today. The early writings from the first church magazines saying that the meso american ruins are evidences of the peoples of the book of mormon were signed "Editor" not Joseph Smith, and there were times at this busy time in Joseph's life that he could not proof read all of what the magazines put out and he was also at odds with the things written in there sometimes. The only direct statements given by Joseph point to the BOM here in North America. If you just go down the Heartland model rabit hole you might see, as I did, that our best leg to stand on for evidence and the most closely taught by Joseph is just North America. Other Christians and Catholics get us on this point that we aren't unified on this and they are right in pointing this out, we honestly look like a hot mess sometimes pointing at different rocks, trees, and rivers, from Chile to Canada. This has partially occured because we say silly things like it doesn't matter where the book of mormon happened it just matters that it did happen. As a result we don't take search for the evidences seriously enough and when we do we often chase shiny distracting objections in the wrong parts of the continent and also throw tons of money in the wrong areas of research. Just take some time doing a deep dive into Wayne Mays stuff, Amberli Nelson, Johnathan Nevilles, and Rod Meldrums work and you'll see what I mean. I think you will be able to provide compelling answers to Trent's questions that he won't have responses to.
I find myself defending the faith online more often than I’d like. The points and arguments themselves never bother me but there’s a sense of feeling shame and kinda heavy hearted after I’ve gone back and forth with someone. Does anyone else feel this way? Should I just stop debating people? Could it be just the fact that they usually just insult me? Is it because we were taught to not argue?
I’m an atheist. I can understand that. I think a lot of it has to do with how we are raised, how society views arguments, etc. The best thing is to try to keep on topic and debate the issue and not anything else. People can get very personal, and there’s no reason to go there. Everyone benefits from challenging their own and other people’s ideas.
Thanks Jacob for putting your testimony out there. So much good said. I wish you would apply your idea that we can’t believe in unreliable second hand sources to the “face in the hat” sources describing the translation. It tends to weaken your argument. Thanks for what you are doing with your channel.
Jacob, From what I understand about the witnesses of the translation of the book of Mormon were recitations of the “example” that Joseph gave to those who wanted to see the plates and the Urim and Thummim. He did that by reciting some of Isaiah by putting his seer stone in the hat just to satisfy their curiosity but could never show them the gold plates and the Urim and Thummim. Never once did Joseph or Oliver explain that the translation was done with a stone in a hat. I believe Joseph that the translation was done by looking through the Urim and Thummim at the golden plates.
I thought Jacob did great and Trent not so well. I was surprised Trent did not bring up the Book of Abraham, which is a slam dunk for discrediting Joseph Smith as a prophet or seer.
Jacob this was amazing! The good points about this debate and what you did are too numerous to discuss in the comment section so I just want to highlight a couple of weaknesses in your arguments. 1) Please, please believe what Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon have to say about where the Book of Mormon took place and you will begin to understand the striking scientific evidences in the American archaeological record as well as those from the arabian peninsula. If you are going wait for academic "experts" to substantiate that the archaeological record points to the reality of the testimony of the Book of Mormon authors you will continue to miss out on important findings. One example...Scott Wolter's research on the Bat Creek Stone. Unfortunately we find our BYU academics still supporting such non sensencial anti-scientific religious dogmas like darwinian evolution, and so many more that an appeal to help from them is futile. 2) Please, please believe what Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery say about the translation process. There is not one original source document from a faithful member of the church that substantiates the stone in the hat translation theory. David Whitmer contracted himself so many times on this topic that he can't be taken seriously whether an apostate or not. As an aside, I think that it rather silly to think that God prepares the tools for translating the Book of Mormon for thousands of years when any old hat and stone will do the trick. However, I think that as a people we look a lot like how the Chosen portrays the apostles; kind of like bumbling wanna-bes. In general, I think we refuse to understand how divine and substantial the Book of Mormon is so our Catholic brother shouldn't be surprised when we can't get our story straight on so many really important topics.
Mormon sister When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what? Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas Read early church
@@DUZCO10 Have you read the Book of Mormon? It’s FILLED TO THE BRIM WITH MIRACLES OF JESUS CHRIST. ITS ANOTHER TESTAMENT (witness) of our Lord Jesus Christ and His goodness, mission and mercy. The apostles were all killed after Christ ascended back into heaven to be with the Father. The truth began to be corrupted because there were no prophets or apostles to guide the church and correct falsehood being introduced. Take the trinity for example. The true nature of God was decided by a group of some 300 men in the council of Nicene. These theologians argued and debated over the nature of God. Constantine the Roman Ruler was worried about the instability of his people worshipping many gods as the pagans, so he ordered the council to establish one God as the Christen God and wrap Christ and the Holy Spirit into that same Being. The trinity is man made. There is a Godhead. A governing body of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit that function perfectly as One Governing body that are separate and individual perfected-glorified Divine Beings. Not all truth was taken from the earth. But the priesthood keys were. As well as the foundation of prophets and apostles. According to the Bible, the Church of Jesus Christ is built on the foundation of apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone. This is stated in Ephesians 2:20 But the Church has been restored in these Latter-days to prepare the earth for Christ second coming. Don’t you think that the earth needs a prophet and apostles to guide through these difficult times? Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. There are over 47,000 different Christen denominations now because they can’t agree on different points of doctrine in the Bible. There’s expected to be over 150,000 by 2030! We need prophets and apostles to guide us through to Christ’s coming and we are so thankful God still speaks to man through His chief Cornerstone, Jesus Christ. He sat up His pattern, and it is once again on the earth. ❤️☀️
@@DUZCO10 By 300 A.D. all the prophets and apostles had been killed and Christ returned to His Father in Heaven. The keys to the kingdom had been taken from the earth. That is why Constantine ordered a council of theologians and philosophers to decide the nature of God. That’s how the trinity came to be… voted on in the creeds.
You got him good with the witness argument. If he rejects the Three Witnesses (and others), he MUST reject the witnesses of Christ by the same logic. And if he does, then he must reject the Catholic Church. It's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or nothing. No other church comes close in the mountain of evidence.
It’s interesting how most of the arguments against the Book of Mormon are about Joseph Smith and the circumstances surrounding its translation or historical/geographical inconsistencies. No one ever disputes its teachings. Because it is unimpeachable. If there are errors, they are the errors of men.
You...might consider taking some deep breaths before doing another debate. You're clearly into this, and you have a lot to say. Nothing wrong with that. But the way you kept interrupting Trent is much more consistent with the worst of Protestant behavior...not the best of either Catholic or LDS behavior.😊
They both certainly had moments of irritation. Overall, though, compared to most people, the two were admirable. I do enjoy debates more when people can keep their emotions in check, keep insults out, and stick to the material and arguments alone.
It’s amazing how many people think Trent was irritated by him “losing” and not the fact that he was constantly interrupted for 2 hours by Jacob. You can tell Jacob is not an experienced debater, was too eager to talk over Trent and didn’t give his opponent any grace to finish is rebuttals.
"Ave Gratia Plena, dominus tecum" -Lk 1:28 ------ ------ ------ ------ 👋 Greetings Jacob, maybe you knew this and let it pass, or maybe you're not aware of this? 🥊 Issue: ● Trent's '1000's of people fleeing Egypt' (Min 54:53) VS. ● a gestimation 1,800,000 plus leaving Egypt (possibly a low guess). 📌 A Catholic here, an edited re-post from Hansen vs. Horn 'Pints' debate: m.ruclips.net/video/9V_N0cRqzQU/видео.html 🙃 (Someone, please correct me if this wrong): ------ ------ ------ ------ 🚫 My brother in Christ, Trent, greatly mispoke about the number of people who left Egypt at the Exodous. 🤔 Not sure if it was a failure of the moment or if it is something Trent is unaware of... 🎤 Trent at min. 54:53 -- "This isn't like a few thousand people fleeing Egypt with disposable goods that might disappear in the desert. We're talking about over thousand years hundredads and thousands of people building huge settlements.." ● 🙋🏽♂️ In the 2nd year of their departure, a census of males 20 years and older counted 605,355 of all tribes except Levi (Num 1:1-4, 44-47; Num 2:32-34) ● The census of Levi was of every male a month old and older, 22,000. (Num 3:39) ● 🙋🏽♀️ If we add one woman 20 years and older to match that 603,550 males, we get 1,207,100 persons. ● and if we merely add one person 19 years of age or younger (male or female) to match that 603,550 males, we get 1,810,650 persons of all the tribes except Levi that were in the desert the 2nd year of the Exodous. ● If we match 1 female Levite for every male 1 mo. or older to the Levite census, we get 44,000 Levites. ● In addition, scripture informs us that the Kenites joined the community of Israel on their journey to and conquest of Holy Land. (Jud. 1:16; Num 10:29-33; Num 24:21-22, 1Sam 15:6; 27:10; 30:29). 🧑🏫 (leaving it to those that know more than myself whether it was a small tribe or a large people of Kenites who attatched themselves to Israel, 100's, 1,000's, 10,000's, 100,000's?) 🥸 So there's a big discrpency between "a few thousand" and what may be a low figure of 1,800,000 Israelites (and later Kenites) traveling through the wilderness for nearly 40 years.. ● (*Faithful*) Scholars or a website somewhere prob. have more accurate numbers than myself...
To me the HUGE win was when Trent claimed that the character sheet was falsely reported to be genuine by the scholar so that Martin Harris could feel better about having mortgaged his farm to finance the printing of The Book of Mormon and to recoop his money...
Only to then be told that Harris mortgaged the farm AFTER his encounter with the scholar and that he left more convinced than ever of the autenticity of the book which led him to make that financial desision.
@mattc1647 this actually shows how much of a dupe Martin was because Charles Anthon told him he couldn’t read the characters because they weren’t authentic characters and he thought Joseph Smith could and that Joseph knew more than the learned.
Were you born in Varrock?
@thekolobsociety Mr Carroll, will you honestly read Isaiah 29 in context and admit it has nothing to with the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, or Martin Harris?
The text literally tells you it’s about Jerusalem. Please compare the Dead Sea scrolls version written before Jesus and compare it to Joseph Smith translation. He literally adds dozens of verses that just isn’t there. It’s verifiable.
@@kuriju88 woah partner... What evidence do you have that is what Harris thought after visiting Anthon... Surely you didn't just make something up with no evidence or claim to read this man's thoughts?
@TheAlchemist1 there are many sources and this is the story that Joseph tried to push that the learned could not read the characters but that he, the humble farm boy, could.
First they went to Dr Mitchell that was the expert and he said he couldn’t read them and then went to Charles Anthon, who was an expert in Greek. He wouldn’t have authenticated them because he didn’t know any Egyptian. They were just squiggles anyway.
The story later evolved to say that he said they were Arabic, Egyptian, Chaldaic, and Assyrian.
No wonder why jeff durbin doesn't want to debate you jacob , he doesn't want the smoke 🔥
@@VICTOR7oh2 tbh, it’s because Jeff can’t defend himself. All he has is straw men and misrepresentations. Saw a video of their service, it’s honestly a bit… culty…
First, off, the visuals and the audio intro is FIRE! It’s smooth.
I have many thoughts on the debate, and I think you did fine.
As an atheist, I think I’m a little more objective since I have no skin in this debate, either way here. I think you could have relied less on tu quoque, as I see that too much in these types of debates, and it’s not philosophically compelling-though, it can be rhetorically compelling in certain moments, of deployed judiciously for effect.
1) I believe you successfully defended against nearly all his objections
2) I think you didn’t present a strong enough case to meet your burden, though you made some compelling points, that I mostly don’t think Trent answered well.
3) Trent made a couple tiny points that went unanswered, as they were conflated with stereotypical anti-Mormon rhetoric, so his nuance was lost; but I don’t think they are enough to actually make a substantive impact to anything.
4) Trent was poorly prepared. I know far more than him about the BoM, as an atheist, and I don’t think he gave it the serious attention it deserves to critique it; my opinion here is based on his-even to me-underpreparation for the required knowledge in this subject.
5) while Jacob didn’t meet his burden, only on a technicality could I have awarded Trent this debate. If I’m going off the sum total of everyone’s performance, Jacob won this, hands down.
Both sides did score points in either direction. It was mostly painful to hear Trent, whom I respect as an intellectual, drop the ball and also be so ignorant in regard to this material.
Trent needs to stick to philosophical debate. He shines there.
He’s not good at whatever this was.
I want to see Jacob debate him on epistemology or metaphysics. That would be fascinating.
I agree with you completely here. While Jacob did a great job responding to Trent, I don't think he provided a strong enough case for the Divinity of the Book of Mormon. That said, I am totally okay with that because, as a practicing Latter-Day Saint, I think the only true way to know the book is divine is by reading it with an open heart and asking God if it is his word. When it comes to spiritual matters, I find it is best to find answers through the spirit (though logic can definitely help solidify faith).
In 1 Cor 12:3 it says
"3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost".
An Atheist , Muslim, Bhuddist ,etc may read the scriptures cover to cover but might not believe in its truthfulness if they will just rely on their own understanding, The Holy Ghost who is the testator of all truths will manifest the truthfulness of things to all those who honestly seek it.
John 16
"13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come".
@@dallintheriault9747 I'm curious what would constitute Jacob winning to you. Better offense? Better defense? Different argument? Could he have even won it because ultimately it is a spiritual matter?
I think that's a perfect analysis. Jacob was catering to his audience and opponent i.e. a person that already believes in God. Even the debate question assumes divine inspiration exists. The goal for the atheist was more to show that the Book of Mormon should be taken as seriously as the Bible. While we ultimately disagree with the atheists, we can appreciate their consistency.
@hardwork8395 Try plain Biblical historical truth. It leads straight pass Trent.
I think Trent was not ready for the volume of strong evidence presented, so his only course of action to save face was to deny the strength of that evidence, despite its overwhelming nature. Choosing to spin rather than concede when no refutation was possible made him seem overly partisan, lacking even a modicum of objectivity. As my father puts it, "there are none so blind as those that don't want to see". Trent seems like a guy who would stop his ears and gouge out his eyes if God appeared before him to testify of The Book of Mormon.
@vannersp
Trent was plenty ready for this debate. It seems that the majority of Jacob’s defense came from essentially saying, “we don’t know yet” as a response to give an account for languages that haven’t been discovered, topography that hasn’t been found, characters that haven’t been displayed anywhere in history, etc. Just being fair…
For the past 190 years the church has been endlessly mocked for saying horses existed in the Americas before Columbus. Then in the last three years archeologists discovered that there were horses here before Columbus. Did anyone stop and say wow you guys were right this whole time? No they just move on to the next thing we don’t know yet. That’s why Jacob said that. Because for 190 years Joseph keeps being proven right on more and more things.
Hey @jaydavis1165!
Thank you for your reply. I’m not trying to mock the LDS church so forgive me if my comment was received that way. I’m also not ultimately interested in anachronisms that are later proven not to be anachronisms (the Biblical canon has had the same accusations happen that later get proven wrong). My ultimate concern is testimony given to a different God, different Jesus, and different gospel. While I do believe Trent is correct in his presentation of evidence against the Book of Mormon, and I think this is helpful in providing credibility against it, I think the ultimate issue ends up being whether or not the nature, attributes, and persons of Yahweh in the biblical canon turn out to be completely consistent with that of the Book of Mormon (as well as D&C; PGP, since these are considered scripture by Latter Day Saints as well).
I love that so many people saw this debate and had a chance to hear a testimony about the book of Mormon.
Amen
Mormon brother
When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what?
Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas
Read early church
@@DUZCO10 There are eye witness accounts of people seeing angels at temples, saints being healed and other miracles occurring throughout church history. Whether you choose to believe those accounts is up to you just like whether you choose to believe the miracles in the bible happened or think of them as larger than life stories.
@DUZCO10 Miracles still occurred according to the faith of those who were healed, even as it was in the apostolic age. We do not deny that. What we claim is that the structure and authority to recieve new, public revelation that was applicable for the whole church and Kingdom, the authority to decide on ecumenical issues above the level.of a bishop, and the authority to maintain consistency of the performance, recording, and order of saving ordinances to fulfill the desires of the organization of the Kingdom was shattered sometime prior to Nicea. Most likely with the rejections and martyrdoms of the apostles.
@Samuel-et7bd Thanks but I'm asking about Joseph Smith miracles. Jesus performed miracles of healings before multitudes so that we would believe.
John 10:37-38
"Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.
Jesus is urging people to consider the miracles He performed as evidence of His unity with the Father, even if they struggle to believe His words alone.
What miracles did Joseph Smith perform before multitudes?
Brilliant Jacob. Special testimony based on divine facts. You rock!
Absolutely phenomenal witnessing and testifying Jacob!
Thank you for raising the bar for all of us and setting a powerful and beautiful example of declaring the everlasting gospel!
Thank you brother for the influential work you are doing!
My thoughts:
1. The first half of the debate, Trent was just throwing lots of old, rehashed anti LDS arguments at Jacob and he wasn't given enough time to respond to them all. (or he didn't respond quickly enough to address them all.)
2. The back-and-forth question section is where Jacob started to take over the debate. From then on Jacob had Trent on the ropes, and exposed his lack understanding of the robust rebuttals of the things he was bringing up.
3. But to Trent's credit, he brought up the one thing that Jacob could have done much earlier to get a knockout... His personal Testimony. Trent said that personal testimony is the strongest argument for the Book of Mormon, and the whole time I was thinking, "why doesn't Jacob focus on the only infallible way to know if the Book of Mormon is inspired by God? (i.e. God himself)"
4. Jacob finally shares his testimony in his final statement, but He could have explained earlier why God is the ultimate source of truth and that is why he believes in both the Book of Mormon and the Bible.
Having said that, kudos to Jacob for doing a great job, it's easy to Monday morning QB these things.
100% something like this (on either side) is so much harder to do in real time.
You did really well 👍. I got frustrated with some of his arguments because some were just uninformed like the Martin Harris mortgaging his farm for example. Also the most triggering argument critics make is when they say Joseph Smith died in a ‘shootout’. He was murdered by 200 people while sitting in a jail cell. It’s not like he and his friends took some guns down to the local saloon. Just give him some dignity and admit he was murdered by a mob.
Mormon brother
When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what?
Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas
Read early church
@andrewolsen2711 - Had we learned the Truth back then about the Egyptian Funerary Text Joseph would have been strung up on the closest tree and would never have made it to the 'shootout'. As it is now we have to live with the fallout of disgrace and cognitive dissonance deconstruct from living centuries of lies!
@@DUZCO10Great question! I’m no expert, but I would definitely say around the end of the 1st and the beginning of the 2nd, the Great Apostasy started to unfold. For starters, all of Christ’s Apostles died or were martyred, and with them, the keys of Christ’s kingdom were lost. So, if we are talking about loss of priesthood authority and apostolic collapse, that is roughly when it happened. With the death of the apostles, prophetic guidance disappeared. But, in reality, the Great Apostasy isn’t simply a one time event. Following their deaths, churches continued to splinter and fracture away from the main body of Christ’s church. Also, corrupted ideas began sneaking into the church. For example, the Trinity, infant baptism, etc. Biblical scholars admit that many Christians began integrating the ideas of Greek philosophers into Christian thought which corrupted the pure words of Christ. After many hundreds of years, it took non Christian led, political councils to debate and compromise on what Christians believed. This pattern of decision making isn’t the Lord Jesus Christ’s way. Many books have been written on the subject. I definitely suggest you read several of them.
@@DUZCO10as to your second question, you should definitely read more in depth on the history of the Restoration of Christ’s Church. There are hundreds of accounts of visions, healings, revelations, angelic visitations, and so forth. It’s not just a divinely inspired book. It’s so much more! God poured out so many more miracles than the Book of Mormon.
@@DUZCO10hi brother, not sure where you get the idea that there is competition between the miracles of Jesus and the miracles of the restoration. We believe that God is a God of miracles and everything said about Jesus and the miracles in the Bible we believe in. God bless!
You did an amazing job… thanks for taking on something like this ❤
Jacob you're opening was so FIRE! I'd like to see multiple videos with you covering all that evidence in depth!
One thing I have been trying to wrap my head around is that all other christian denominations put SO much weight on logic and historical evidence and seem to reject a spiritual witness.
From an atheist position, I’ve talked to and debated countless religious people for decades, and my experience bears out what you’ve said, though I’ll explain.
My experience is that within the context of a conversation, especially from a believer to another believer, religious experience can be shared and accepted; however, interdenominational (or believer/unbeliever) discussions often turn more to debate tactics, where reason and evidence gains priority.
Edit-
a note in apologetics: aside from the few reformed Christians who like presuppositional apologetics, many more Christians tend to use evidential apologetics. So they may emphasize the importance of philosophical or historical argumentation, etc.
"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can understand it?" -Jeremiah 17:9
@@ToqTheWise"Did our hearts not burn within us?"
I made this point in the comments of the original video and was surprised that someone responded basically saying that you can’t trust your experience with the Holy Ghost because it’s easy to be fooled… found it fascinating that a believer in Christ would try to introduce doubt when it comes to the Holy Ghost, but the reality is that the vast majority of them have not asked God if their church is his church or if the teaching are true. It’s all logic/tradition to them.
@@ToqTheWise That passage isn't about revelation, it's about Loyalty. God is saying that only He can know where men's true allegiance lies.
7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.
8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
9 ¶ The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Simply the best 🙏 Jacob crushed this 😏 makes me happy to have joined the church 🙌
I wasn’t too convinced by his arguments. Just very vaguely connected conjectures.
It's a great place to be!
@@revertrevertz5438 that's ok Jesus loves you too 🙏
@@armchairarmwrestler7708 And also you, I pray you’ll open your heart to him and His Church.
@@revertrevertz5438 Please don't pray to saints for us. We pray straight to God
This was definitely worth the prep you put in.
Thank you Jacob, love the time and effort you put in to defending your faith. Calling the MOB murder of Joseph and Hyrum a shootout was a pathetic and a sad comment by a hater. Peace to all.
@Niels89740 -so 'martyr' now includes anybody packing a pistol in their hands ?? 8D
@@garyr.8116A righteous man defends the lives of his friends from murderers.
Jacob, you totally killed it, brother! Well done! I wish i could shake your hand and give you a hug for the great defense and testimony of the Book of Mormon!
Same 😊 God bless Jacob for putting himself out there like this in defense of truth 🙏 🤗
Jacob you're on fire. If this is what you are doing, then the whole debate is yours!!!
Jacob you did such a fantastic job defending the faith. I think Trent Horn seriously underestimated you. Your performance and delivery was much better in my opinion.
Absolutely Incredible Work:
/testimony Jacob! My jaw hit the floor when you immediately started cookin 🧑🍳 There’s no way that our Catholic brother’s & sisters do not feel the Spirit from those powerful words brother
I couldn't believe that Trent Horn - not once, but twice! - said that the fact that secular culture isn't as acquainted with the stories of the Book of Mormon as it is with the Bible is evidence that the Book of Mormon isn't well-written, complex, or inspiring. No, actually, it has to do with the clear historical difference - the Bible has been in circulation much longer, and for most of American history it was not only studied by nearly all citizens in their private lives, but was taught in schools. The Book of Mormon was not. That's why even secular people have a passing familiarity with the Bible but not with the Book of Mormon. Trent should know better.
If you watch enough of Trent’s videos, you’ll notice he’s not averse to sophistry and/or copping out/straw manning the LDS or any other point that runs contrary to or may undermine Catholicism as an institution in particular. And he cops out and/or glosses over the inconsistencies in Catholic doctrine/theology.
Jacob! You did so well on this debate. Such a well formulated and defended argument! And you concluded it with genuine testimony. Bless you brother. So proud to call you a brother in Christ.
Worth a watch, but short answer, yes. There, saved you 35 minutes. The book of Mormon is divinely inspired
Mormon brother
When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what?
Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas
Read early church
@DUZCO10 spamming the same comment on like a dozen comments here smh. Why does the BOM need to one up Christ's miracles? Can't be divine if it doesn't have "better" miracles? Imagine if it did you'd be saying look at this fake book trying to outdo Christ himself!!
@@carsonhawkes
Malachi 3:6
"I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."*
This verse emphasizes God's unchanging nature and His faithfulness to His promises.
What healing miracles did Joseph Smith perform to prove his msg was divine?
@DUZCO10 have you done your research or just asking questions. You'd know if you looked into it. However just like Christ commanded many to not go and tell if his miracles to those healed Joseph wasn't followed around by scribes. And finally show me all the times every biblical prophet healed. You can't
@carsonhawkes Abraham Healing: Healing Abimelech’s Household from Barrenness (Genesis 20:17-18)
Elijah Healing: Reviving the Widow’s Son (1 Kings 17:17-24)
Elisha Healing: Cleansing Naaman of Leprosy (2 Kings 5:1-14)
Moses Healing: Healing of Miriam’s Leprosy (Numbers 12:10-15)
Isaiah Healing: The Extension of Hezekiah’s Life (2 Kings 20:1-11)
Joseph Smith Healing miracle?
He wrote a good book?
Just an honest question
I am so grateful for your voice! Thank you☀️
Mormon brother
When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what?
Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas
Read early church
@@DUZCO10 copy/pasting the same thing doesn't win arguments.
Excellent job! As someone who is a fan of both Jacob and Trent, this debate (and even more so your discussion with him that preceded it) was testimony-strengthening. Your facts and evidence were great, but perhaps even more than that the contrast of the two theologies and cosmologies was really such an inspiring reminder of the goodness, truth, and beauty of the restored gospel.
Trent really shouldn't throw stones when he lives in a glass house. The catholic church is the easiest to prove it's not God's church. The corruption alone through the centuries would prove that.
There is corruption In Mormonism too and at the end of the debate, even Jacob himself said corrupt men don't make an entire religion false. You have to look at the religions doctrines and where it came from.
When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what?
Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas
Read early church
@@DUZCO10 If you are earnest in your search for this answer look into what we say. I have found many videos and teachings that answer this. the comment section is not a school room for learning it is impossible to answer all the questions you have in it (believe me I have tried) so if you actually want to learn seek out for the answer not in comments but through searching. but if this is just here so that you can feel justified that you cant be answered then I hope you find your self closer to god in what ever you believe.
@a.ihistory5879 that number would be almost zero amongst the local leadership and zero in the higher church leadership.
@wheels636 that's what I always find interesting about the exmos that join the Catholic Church while denouncing the LDS church.
Like dudes, did you look into the history of the new church you joined?
This is your prime debate so far. You are at your top? Congrats Jacob, shoutout from the philippines.
Pinoy.. 😂😅😊
Yessir 😂 @@RoyEbarle-pq4of
Mormon brother
When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what?
Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas
Read early church
Brother, have you read the book of mormon? Or do you just understand it on a surface level? 😅
@@DUZCO10 you did not see miracles? Ask yourself "why"... Because it is you have no Miracles hehehe 🤗😁😅 repent in billions of times.. bow your head to God(before God's ) cleanse yourself before him.. your sinner. Sacrifice your soul as an offering unto God... ask him not unto us. Don't easy on me folks.
”Wherever the bishop shall appear, there, let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the *Catholic Church.* “ (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter 8) -St. Ignatius of Antioch, 107 AD
Really enjoyed your debate. Nice work.
So many beneficial principles in the Book of Mormon. Even the war chapters show perseverance and bravery with principles to bring order to nations and dissenters in a noble way, fighting for freedoms and liberty. These principles are how peace is achieved, people are inspired, and liberties are obtained.
@kevinm9246 Everything good and wise that lasts comes from it's source God. What other source do you assert instead?
Really got Trent flustered in the cross-examination. Great job! Though you could have corrected him that LDS charitable giving does not include tithing donations.
But I really enjoyed that you got him to flip flop on his rhetoric between Catholicism and the restored gospel. “Witnesses are good! Wait, witnesses are bad! Visions are good! Wait, visions are bad! “Jesus said so” is good! Wait, “Jesus said so” is bad!” Etc. Excellent rhetorical control that exposes Catholic blindness.
LOOK AT THE NEW INTRO 💪🏻
That’s a schnazzy new opening, I like it!
I viewed the entire podcast! You won hands down in spades-but then again I’m biase. I admire your knowledge of our faith and have much for learn from you and other LDS podcasters.
Mormon sister
When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what?
Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas
Read early church
@@DUZCO10all those miracles were performed in spades by Joseph Smith and others from that point until present date. Over 200y worth of miracles.
Dear brother, you should be directing your questions to Jacob. I’m sure he can answer ANY questions you may have with much more clarity and accuracy. 🕊️
My man!
Love the new intro and I love the comments on the OG video. Many people coming together for the better.
As an LDS, I LOVE your knowledge, wisdom and rebuttal but I wish you debated with the Savior’s LOVE! But Great job none the less.
Mormon brother
When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what?
Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas
Read early church
@@DUZCO10 When all the Apostles got killed. The Authority they had died with them.
@peter10562 so the church founded by Christ only lasted a generation?
How is that?
Have your Read early church?
Abraham, Moses performed miracles as prophets. Jesus Christ performed multiple miracles. Yet the church he started died in a generation.
@@DUZCO10 Great Question and point. I don’t know all the answers to your question but what I do know is that Heavenly Father answers questions to prayers.
I prayed to Him and the answers He gave me was clear. How do I know it’s clear? Because I lived a life of sin. Now I live a life of service to my GOD and His children. Glorifying the name of His beloved son Jesus Christ!
@@DUZCO10 How much of the New Testament records the Apostles needing to correct and pull back against false doctrine and sin? After their death, the Church was racked by dissension schism, and heresy. Just because people have seen miracles does not guarantee they will stand faithful. Else there would not have been a golden calf in Sini.
You did a great job. I was a little disappointed with Trent. He seemed to kind of phone this in. He demonstrated that he is quite misinformed on the subject. His arguments are extremely simple to deconstruct by anyone with source knowledge of the Book of Mormon and church history. But he was at least respectful. Trent is a good guy, but I wish he took this more seriously.
I don't think Trent is an expert on the topic of the Mormon church, I'd cut him some slack if you felt he phoned it in... probably didn't take the whole thing very seriously
@@DIYAroundTheHome agree i dont think he's as rehearsed in this topic as Jacob is
Trent also seemed emotional and flustered during the cross examination. Probably came in a little prideful of simple Catholic retorts carrying him through, and they didn’t work.
“Can I finish please” like bro, learn what a cross-examination is
Jacob. You're an amazing influence for good, inspiring others to turn to Christ and his Gospel. Appreciate you man.
I appreciate there are members like you who can engage with this type of dialogue. Exploring the Book of Mormon as inspired of God is exceptionally reasonable for the faithful 🫶🏼
I agree. I think the average person needs to talk outside of echo chambers. It helps people be kinder, better humans, and they become far more informed of other’s and their own beliefs-it’s a win-win.
Thank you Jacob for doing these hard debates!
The Restoration of The True Church of Jesus Christ and its Fruits
What a great show. I'm fully subscribed, Thumbs up, I will share this video, and am now commenting on it. The Book Of Mormon is True and Joseph Smith is a true Prophet of as us Russell M. Nelson is today. With fond regards brother Powers.
INCREDBILE. Great Job, Jacob! Love it
It will be nice when one day Trent will know the truth, as all eventually will. Then he will know the Book of Mormon IS the record of those whom Jesus spoke of in John 10:16: “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” Were the people on THIS continent to have nothing to do with the Lord?
In Ezekiel 37: 16-17 it says, “Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.” The stick of Judah is the Bible and the stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon.
The Pints with Aquinas guy (sorry not familiar with his name) did a phenomenal job at moderation. I wish all moderators would learn from his example.
At times I really wanted to reach through my screen and answer Trent's questions in more detail, because he got away with a lot of out of context, cherry picked quotes.
For example, when David Whitmer said God told him to leave, it wasn't about leaving the church, (he had already been excommunicated) it was about leaving the area of Far West, Missouri where the Saints were. I believe God did tell him to leave that area, for his own safety. There had arisen a rogue group of vigilantes among the members and his life may have been in danger by them. Trent tries to make it sound like God told Whitmer to leave the church so he can present a false paradox that if you believe David was a witness, why don't you believe him when he said God told him to leave? But this is false because he had already been excommunicated. God didn't tell him to leave the church, just to get out of that area.
It seems to escape Trent that the fact that Whitmer was excommunicated, but he never denies his witness of the Angel and the plates, and the Book of Mormon only strengthens his witness of the Book of Mormon. He had every reason to expose Joseph as fraud and was offered political appointments and other things if he would. But he never would. He was true to his Testimony.
Also, David Whitmer didn't just have an impression. He was very clear in many statements that he saw "with these eyes" and he held the plates "with these hands". It wasn't "second site" or an illusion. How do you have multiple people see the exact same "hallucination" at the same time? So much more could be said about this. But just look at Whitmer's actual statements in total, not just one secondhand statement.
Having said that, kudos to Jacob and Trent for the debate.
Trent was just making stuff up out of desperation to win the debate because those 16 names that Jacob brought up are not found in the writings of Jospehus.
Book of Mormon proper names that are attested from Hebrew inscriptions. Names included are Sariah, Alma, Abish, Aha, Ammonihah, Chemish, Hagoth, Himni, Isabel, Jarom, Josh, Luram, Mathoni, Mathonihah, Muloki, and Sam-none of which appear in English Bibles.
Jacob, you did a phenomenal job! Thank you so much for all your hard work, study and faith! You are a true defender of Christ gospel!
Jacob, I’m always a little critical- sorry about that, but I wanted to take a second to tell you thank you for doing this debate. You were phenomenal and you really do have a wide range of knowledge and proofs and history stored away not just to find later but you are able to recall it and recite it. Great work!
A little joke from Isaak Asimov who was not a Mormon.
The Pope had called together a meeting of the cardinals and said, "I have some good news for you and some bad news. The good news is this. Our blessed Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, has returned to earth for the long-awaited Second Coming, and the Day of Judgment is at hand."
There was an exalted silence for a few moments and then one cardinal said, "But Holy Father, with good news like that, what's the bad news?"
The Pope mopped his forehead with his handkerchief and said, "The information has reached us from Salt Lake City."
My name is also Trent but I endorse this message
I wish Jacob wouldn't have interrupted Trent as often as he did. It drives away the spirit.
That's how cross examination is supposed to work.
Interesting framing.
The contention is that belief is reasonable. To that end, no poont made in favor of the Book of Mormon needs to be proof. Its just that there is enough, plausible evidence, that taken together, belief is a rational conclusion (not necessarily a compulsory conclusion).
Trents position simply assumes the opposite interpretation of each point of evidence.
Those positions cant actually dis"prove" one another.
In other words, it was a terrible debate topic
@@cranzag the debate topic wasn't great and disadvantaged Jacob a lot.
Ive been comemnting on Matts youtube page for like a year to have Jacob on the channel. Im glad matt listened. Good Job Jacob.
There is a book written by Trent Horn titled "When Protestants Argue like Atheist"
I won't be surprised if a similar sounding book would be written with title "When Catholics Argue like Atheist" inspired by this debate.
Good job, thank you.
Protestant here so I may not be completely unbiased (in fact current LDS apologists will probably label me anti-mormon without a second thought). I moved to Utah recently and have been looking for LDS apologetic since I arrived and have been mostly disappointed until the year or so. Good on the current LDS generation for actually making a try at defending your faith! That said - I’d have to give a nominal win to Trent. It could easily have been a stronger win but Trent gave Jacob a little too much space in cross-exam to direct the conversation with his non-sequiturs, and could have had a little more preparation on details of the witnesses that Jacob was sure to bring up. Jacob did well and was certainly cheerful and confident so he presented well, but what I think LDS apologetic culture is still working on is that it’s not enough to just have a strong response. In this forum it needs to be sound reasoning and can’t rely on false equivalencies or ad hominems. For example:
Jacob’s only strong ‘mic drop’ moment is the comparison of number of witnesses between the gold plates and Jesus’ resurrection. But was I the only screaming that’s almost completely irrelevant?! Ok so you have 19 people who testified to seeing some kind of plates; but there are very few, if any, additional witnesses to the events the BoM describes. Jacob is comparing quantity of witnesses to his book’s autograph copy, as compared to Trent’s number of witnesses of the described event (someone rising from the dead). Why not compare apples to apples, like the number of confirmed archaeological features of the bible to the number of confirmed archaeological features of the BoM? Jacob kept going back to the one feature, Nahom, because he just doesn’t have many more. Sorry, Jacob, just because you say something with a chuckle and with full conviction that you’re striking a bullseye, that doesn’t make it a successful attack. By the way - did Joseph Smith even use those plates, around which one of your major arguments was centered, to “translate” the BoM? Too bad Trent wasn’t ready for that attack and took the blow; he should have been ready switch tactics to draw out that swing-and-a-miss in his cross-exam.
Just think, Trent has went toe to toe with titans of other faiths. From James White to Matt Dillahunty. Our very own Jacob Hansen is the latter day titan that brought him down and showed that the Book of Mormon can be defended with sound arguments.
Based
I think he should debate those other two. Jacob would have good chemistry. I think it would be very entertaining and informative.
Jacob needs to debate theology with Trent.
I think he’s got a good road ahead for him.
@ProdigalSonMatt except for a lot of the rebuttals that Jacob had aren’t true. He needs to debate an ex Mormon that wasn’t a lazy learner and actually knows why those apolegetics fail. Horn just wasn’t familiar enough with those
You did great! I was proud.
You did great!
Why would we expect to find a genetic relation to ancient Israel in Native Americans when God explicitly says that their curse removed their ancestry to it in Alma 3:17
"I will set a mark upon him that fighteth against thee and thy seed. And again, I say he that departeth from thee shall no more be called thy seed"
Remember that God has the power to literally change our family lineage.
"God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
Luke 3:8-9
I lost it from the first question. I was excited until the first question where he had the audacity to still double down on the theory that Joseph Smith randomly predicted the name of King Zedekiah’s son. These guys are delusional for sure, and I think there’s just something evil about starring directly at the sun and turning around to say it does not exist because you can’t touch it.
I may be the idiot in the comment section, but I’m having a hard time following cause of the way you worded it. Are you talking about Jacob doubling down that Joseph did predict that or Trent doubling down that he didn’t?
@@brandonl2555 i see what you mean. I'm sorry for that.
I was talking about the guy who is against JS. I think the claims that they are making sound more incredible than the actual story Joseph Smith told.
To say this ignorant young man made so many random claims accurately by the pure genius of his mind is incredible.
Great job on this Jacob!
If we could hear Trent respond that would’ve been great
I don't know where Jacob gets the patience to do this.
Mormon brother
When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what?
Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas
Read early church
@@DUZCO10 There's zero evidence Christ founded the catholic church
@DUZCO10 The first century apostolic church apostatized as soon as they rejected the uniting apostolic authority, and began participating in and prescribing ordinances and requiring assent to beliefs in a non divinely approved way.
@@DUZCO10 the church of the new testament is NOT the Catholic church lol
Brilliant! Well done.
Jacob, you crushed it!
Great debate for you Jacob. I was disappointed Trent went for Gish Gallop tactics revolving around LDS theology rather than the actual book. Trents argument is "Rome true so BoM must be false."
Not really, he only used that as a one of his arguments, given that the debate’s audience were Catholics.
Really got Trent flustered in the cross-examination. Great job! Though you could have corrected him that LDS charitable giving does not include tithing donations.
Beautiful 🙏🙏🙏
Jacob Hansen should have added the most important aspect of the Book of Mormon and that is its dozens of restored truths contained within, the fulness of the gospel. The best evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon are these restored truths. The best evidence that Joseph did not author the Book of Mormon is that Joseph did not know or understand these restored truths, sometimes years or even decades after the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Examples include, the Godhead, Jesus Christ's role as intercessory, the infinite atonement, the plan of salvation including the premortal reality, our probationary state, the spirit world and resurrection, the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, the temple, the preparatory and Melchizedek Priesthood, the structure of the Church, priestcrafts, those baptized are numbered with the House of Israel and the blessings pertaining to the HOI, etc, etc...
Trent’s open statement was so insincere I had to dip. First off Native American language has been tied to Hebrew multiple times from multiple cultures. Second, Joseph Smith predicting the Civil War 30 years prior was actually an incredible achievement - however the fact that Joseph knew that it would be South Carolina to start it all makes it flat out prophetic. Trent in ability to even give it. Some form of credit ended up just discrediting him and my eyes. And that makes it a hard debate to listen to when one of the parties is not being sincere.
There is zero similarly between any known native American language and Hebrew. Most native cultures didn't even have a written language. Joseph Smith also didn't just predict a civil war, he predicted a global war, which never occurred. Many political theorists and common people foresaw a civil war. Newspapers at the time reveal this perception. Thinkers like Alexis de Tocqueville even predicted a civil war well before Joseph. South Carolina happened to be considered the most rebellious Southern state due to the rhetoric of its politicians and citizens. The point being, Joseph Smith never predicted anything significant in any exact detail for it to be considered prophetic, in fact many of his predictions were wrong. A reasonable guess or generalized statement is not prophetic.
@@mr.cobble9968if that’s not good enough there are far more prophecies he told
Also fulfilled
And many he did not fulfill, making him a false prophet that failed the Deuteronomy 18:22 test @@jasongast1806
@bbqbros3648 - Do LDS people actually believe that Jews would use the pagan language text of the Egyptians (their enslavers) to WRITE SCRIPTURE rather than their own native/sacred Hebrew language text? You guys have been living in a cave - Step out into the Light of Truth - Will be praying for you all to find the Real and Living Christ Jesus who desires to give you Eternal Life in and through Him!
When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what?
Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas
Read early church
Way to go brother 👏 well done 👍
I actually thought trent had a good question regarding if the book of Mormon could fit on the gold plates based on what we know about their size. Does anyone have theories how it all fit? I know Jacob has some ideas, but I'd love to learn more.
Well done thoughtful faith. You brought forth strong evidence.
Great job, Jacob.
I wanna share my personal testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. It is the word of God just as the Bible is the word of God. And I testify that anyone who reads it and abides by its precepts will grow closer to God and his son Jesus Christ. It has absolutely changed my life and I'm unbelievably grateful for it
I believe The Book of Mormon is the word of God. Its words invite me to Christ and to follow Him and believe and trust in Christ for my salvation and return back to my Father in Heaven.
It's is not. I'm sorry. Your in a cult. Come to Jesus. Joesph smith is a liar and you have been deceived.
New intro/logo is awesome. Some JP inspired stuff right there 🤌🏻
Now imagine how unstoppable Jacob would be if he was a Heartlander 😉
Jacob, it was such great job on the debate. Nicely done. I would say that for future debates that any of us have with our friends, we have a much stronger foot to stand on if we have more familiarity with the Heartland Model of the Book of Mormon. There are many of Trent's and other's questions that we get stumped on if we think the book of mormon took place in meso america. I truly think meso america is where testimonies go to die if you pursue it to it's ends. The only good DNA evidence is in North America, it has all 12 required natural items required to live the law of moses in north america when meso america only has one, it was against the law of moses to build stairs especially at their alters so they would build ramps instead, there's hebrew writing in the mounds of North America, there are dozens of military forts with walls and earth ditches in North America, the ocean currents take them to North America with a shorter Atlantic crossing from Yemen, the mississippi river system is the largest navigable river system in the world and the Nephites did much by the way of shipping, the north america tribes around the great lakes still claim they have the old temple endowment ceremony, there are skeletons of north american Giants, and skeletons encased in full armor with swords as well. They are also doing digs across the river from Nauvoo, where joseph said to start a city and call it zarahemla and found a massive city there that shows it was a walled city the size of London at that time in world history, they see this through lidar like they are using in the meso american jungles. I used to be a meso American guy even going on tours there, but in the few years I have spent looking up evidence in North America I have gathered up like 2 orders of magnitude more evidence than all the years prior that I spent looking in meso america, and the more I looked there the worse the evidence got. The more I look at North America the better the evidence gets. I don't have to argue about Tapirs and horses because historians are now admitting that the Native Americans had them before the spanish came here. So a horse in the BOM is probably just a horse today. The early writings from the first church magazines saying that the meso american ruins are evidences of the peoples of the book of mormon were signed "Editor" not Joseph Smith, and there were times at this busy time in Joseph's life that he could not proof read all of what the magazines put out and he was also at odds with the things written in there sometimes. The only direct statements given by Joseph point to the BOM here in North America. If you just go down the Heartland model rabit hole you might see, as I did, that our best leg to stand on for evidence and the most closely taught by Joseph is just North America. Other Christians and Catholics get us on this point that we aren't unified on this and they are right in pointing this out, we honestly look like a hot mess sometimes pointing at different rocks, trees, and rivers, from Chile to Canada. This has partially occured because we say silly things like it doesn't matter where the book of mormon happened it just matters that it did happen. As a result we don't take search for the evidences seriously enough and when we do we often chase shiny distracting objections in the wrong parts of the continent and also throw tons of money in the wrong areas of research. Just take some time doing a deep dive into Wayne Mays stuff, Amberli Nelson, Johnathan Nevilles, and Rod Meldrums work and you'll see what I mean. I think you will be able to provide compelling answers to Trent's questions that he won't have responses to.
I find myself defending the faith online more often than I’d like. The points and arguments themselves never bother me but there’s a sense of feeling shame and kinda heavy hearted after I’ve gone back and forth with someone. Does anyone else feel this way? Should I just stop debating people? Could it be just the fact that they usually just insult me? Is it because we were taught to not argue?
I’m an atheist. I can understand that. I think a lot of it has to do with how we are raised, how society views arguments, etc. The best thing is to try to keep on topic and debate the issue and not anything else. People can get very personal, and there’s no reason to go there. Everyone benefits from challenging their own and other people’s ideas.
Book of Mormon is divinely inspired. Facts.
Jacob went off!!🔥🔥
Thanks Jacob for putting your testimony out there. So much good said. I wish you would apply your idea that we can’t believe in unreliable second hand sources to the “face in the hat” sources describing the translation. It tends to weaken your argument. Thanks for what you are doing with your channel.
Jacob, From what I understand about the witnesses of the translation of the book of Mormon were recitations of the “example” that Joseph gave to those who wanted to see the plates and the Urim and Thummim. He did that by reciting some of Isaiah by putting his seer stone in the hat just to satisfy their curiosity but could never show them the gold plates and the Urim and Thummim. Never once did Joseph or Oliver explain that the translation was done with a stone in a hat. I believe Joseph that the translation was done by looking through the Urim and Thummim at the golden plates.
I thought Jacob did great and Trent not so well. I was surprised Trent did not bring up the Book of Abraham, which is a slam dunk for discrediting Joseph Smith as a prophet or seer.
Jacob this was amazing! The good points about this debate and what you did are too numerous to discuss in the comment section so I just want to highlight a couple of weaknesses in your arguments. 1) Please, please believe what Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon have to say about where the Book of Mormon took place and you will begin to understand the striking scientific evidences in the American archaeological record as well as those from the arabian peninsula. If you are going wait for academic "experts" to substantiate that the archaeological record points to the reality of the testimony of the Book of Mormon authors you will continue to miss out on important findings. One example...Scott Wolter's research on the Bat Creek Stone. Unfortunately we find our BYU academics still supporting such non sensencial anti-scientific religious dogmas like darwinian evolution, and so many more that an appeal to help from them is futile. 2) Please, please believe what Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery say about the translation process. There is not one original source document from a faithful member of the church that substantiates the stone in the hat translation theory. David Whitmer contracted himself so many times on this topic that he can't be taken seriously whether an apostate or not. As an aside, I think that it rather silly to think that God prepares the tools for translating the Book of Mormon for thousands of years when any old hat and stone will do the trick. However, I think that as a people we look a lot like how the Chosen portrays the apostles; kind of like bumbling wanna-bes. In general, I think we refuse to understand how divine and substantial the Book of Mormon is so our Catholic brother shouldn't be surprised when we can't get our story straight on so many really important topics.
Dang….why was Trent so upset?
Trent Horn displayed valid claims and took the argument against guy! When you have the truth behind you by the Holy Spirit you win
Great job Jacob! You da man!!!😊
Great job Jacob🙌🏻🔥🔥❤️
Mormon sister
When did the church Christ founded apostasize? 1st? 2nd? 3rd century? How did it apostasize? Who did what?
Additionally, I don't see the "miracles" of writing a book remotely close to the true miracles performed by Christ healing the blind, the crippled, walking on water it calming the seas
Read early church
@@DUZCO10
Have you read the Book of Mormon?
It’s FILLED TO THE BRIM WITH MIRACLES OF JESUS CHRIST.
ITS ANOTHER TESTAMENT (witness) of our Lord Jesus Christ and His goodness, mission and mercy.
The apostles were all killed after Christ ascended back into heaven to be with the Father.
The truth began to be corrupted because there were no prophets or apostles to guide the church and correct falsehood being introduced.
Take the trinity for example. The true nature of God was decided by a group of some 300 men in the council of Nicene. These theologians argued and debated over the nature of God. Constantine the Roman Ruler was worried about the instability of his people worshipping many gods as the pagans, so he ordered the council to establish one God as the Christen God and wrap Christ and the Holy Spirit into that same Being.
The trinity is man made.
There is a Godhead. A governing body of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit that function perfectly as One Governing body that are separate and individual perfected-glorified Divine Beings.
Not all truth was taken from the earth. But the priesthood keys were. As well as the foundation of prophets and apostles.
According to the Bible, the Church of Jesus Christ is built on the foundation of apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone. This is stated in Ephesians 2:20
But the Church has been restored in these Latter-days to prepare the earth for Christ second coming.
Don’t you think that the earth needs a prophet and apostles to guide through these difficult times?
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
There are over 47,000 different Christen denominations now because they can’t agree on different points of doctrine in the Bible. There’s expected to be over 150,000 by 2030!
We need prophets and apostles to guide us through to Christ’s coming and we are so thankful God still speaks to man through His chief Cornerstone, Jesus Christ. He sat up His pattern, and it is once again on the earth.
❤️☀️
@@DUZCO10
By 300 A.D. all the prophets and apostles had been killed and Christ returned to His Father in Heaven.
The keys to the kingdom had been taken from the earth.
That is why Constantine ordered a council of theologians and philosophers to decide the nature of God. That’s how the trinity came to be… voted on in the creeds.
As a pro poker player I can tell you Trent “bluffed” many times
Ayeee yahhhhhhhh
You got him good with the witness argument. If he rejects the Three Witnesses (and others), he MUST reject the witnesses of Christ by the same logic. And if he does, then he must reject the Catholic Church. It's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or nothing. No other church comes close in the mountain of evidence.
youre jumping the gun. under this premise qe are just assuming all the witnesses are equal
I think it’s cool that the guy from Everybody Loves Raymond is so interested in the Church.
It’s interesting how most of the arguments against the Book of Mormon are about Joseph Smith and the circumstances surrounding its translation or historical/geographical inconsistencies. No one ever disputes its teachings. Because it is unimpeachable. If there are errors, they are the errors of men.
the moral teachings so dryly just regurgitate things from the bible
God never abandoned the earth for 1700 years.
You...might consider taking some deep breaths before doing another debate. You're clearly into this, and you have a lot to say. Nothing wrong with that. But the way you kept interrupting Trent is much more consistent with the worst of Protestant behavior...not the best of either Catholic or LDS behavior.😊
They both certainly had moments of irritation. Overall, though, compared to most people, the two were admirable.
I do enjoy debates more when people can keep their emotions in check, keep insults out, and stick to the material and arguments alone.
The format allowed for and encouraged the give and take of interruptions to make the debate more engaging . It worked for me.
We’ll said!
It’s amazing how many people think Trent was irritated by him “losing” and not the fact that he was constantly interrupted for 2 hours by Jacob. You can tell Jacob is not an experienced debater, was too eager to talk over Trent and didn’t give his opponent any grace to finish is rebuttals.
I suspect there is a large amount of truth here. Though, I couldn't be a member. I drink coffee, and my wife drinks coffee and smokes.
"Ave Gratia Plena, dominus tecum" -Lk 1:28
------ ------ ------ ------
👋 Greetings Jacob, maybe you knew this and let it pass, or maybe you're not aware of this?
🥊 Issue:
● Trent's '1000's of people fleeing Egypt' (Min 54:53)
VS.
● a gestimation 1,800,000 plus leaving Egypt (possibly a low guess).
📌 A Catholic here, an edited re-post from Hansen vs. Horn 'Pints' debate:
m.ruclips.net/video/9V_N0cRqzQU/видео.html
🙃 (Someone, please correct me if this wrong):
------ ------ ------ ------
🚫 My brother in Christ, Trent, greatly mispoke about the number of people who left Egypt at the Exodous.
🤔 Not sure if it was a failure of the moment or if it is something Trent is unaware of...
🎤 Trent at min. 54:53 --
"This isn't like a few thousand people fleeing Egypt with disposable goods that might disappear in the desert. We're talking about over thousand years hundredads and thousands of people building huge settlements.."
● 🙋🏽♂️ In the 2nd year of their departure, a census of males 20 years and older counted 605,355 of all tribes except Levi
(Num 1:1-4, 44-47; Num 2:32-34)
● The census of Levi was of every male a month old and older, 22,000.
(Num 3:39)
● 🙋🏽♀️ If we add one woman 20 years and older to match that 603,550 males, we get 1,207,100 persons.
● and if we merely add one person 19 years of age or younger (male or female) to match that 603,550 males, we get 1,810,650 persons
of all the tribes except Levi that were in the desert the 2nd year of the Exodous.
● If we match 1 female Levite for every male 1 mo. or older to the Levite census, we get 44,000 Levites.
● In addition, scripture informs us that the Kenites joined the community of Israel on their journey to and conquest of Holy Land. (Jud. 1:16; Num 10:29-33; Num 24:21-22, 1Sam 15:6; 27:10; 30:29).
🧑🏫 (leaving it to those that know more than myself whether it was a small tribe or a large people of Kenites who attatched themselves to Israel, 100's, 1,000's, 10,000's, 100,000's?)
🥸 So there's a big discrpency between "a few thousand" and what may be a low figure of 1,800,000 Israelites (and later Kenites) traveling through the wilderness for nearly 40 years..
● (*Faithful*) Scholars or a website somewhere prob. have more accurate numbers than myself...
19:00 "strong core values" yes, because they come from god