To clarify! When I asked why Eggman's trump cards weren't factored into the main scenario, I am not referring to the animation, done by Moro. Animation, especially now, is expensive and time consuming, I completely understand why things like the Time Eater and the Metal Virus could not be included for the main fight animation. What I am referring to is the over all conclusion they came to, because beings like Infinite and Neo Metal, and game enders like Spatial displacement and the Phantom Ruby, seemed to be swept under the rug during the final section.
@@Unremarkable6969 Bowser's side also had way more things that could have been brought up but weren't included, pretty sure King Boo got glossed over for the most part aside from field control. Heck he could have possessed Metal and there wouldn't be any way for him to counter it, from my own research I couldn't find a single argument that he could resist possession by himself. Also Infinite is not that big of a threat, it is just the writing of Forces that hyped him up so much that he couldn't possibly live up to the expectation, also the storyboard artist confirmed that his crushing by the Twhomp was a reference to another Bowser vs Eggman animation. But are you mad that Eggman didn't win or are you fine with the result, just disappointed they didn't analyze his stuff the way you did in your video? A lot of debunk videos usually stamp from someone being salty because their character didn't win, but Bowser vs Eggman was so close it didn't feel to me like their research was wrong.
Infinite doesn't really have any resistance to transmutation unless you count the cube wispon, but that's not on the same level or scale as Bowsers reality warping and transmutation. Bowser could also steal the ruby. The only phantom ruby user with resistance to transmutation would be Lightman in the egg fields seeing as he controls all aspects of it and can make his thoughts into reality. Both have insta win sealing like King Boo's paintings that immobilize and seal, and cyberspace and spatial displacement traps. Each would be hard to pull off given the amount of allies in each side. If either is pulled off it's an insta deal. Bowser has no way to counter super Neo metal as the chaos emeralds remove adverse effects, and are able to attack conceptually. Doesn't have a reliable way of getting rid of the time eater either.
Because, if Eggman brought them up, Bowser had something to counter it. So, just as Eggman's options were swept under, so would the solutions that Bowser could present.
the rules of death battle for the battles in itself is a full of big mistakes so them taking non-canon stuff automatically invalidates their battles EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. thats how every death battle is debunked by me
@@Uesr2004DDont act like most fandoms ere not toxic when a character of the verse they like lose. Elso, yall should check his community post, he adressed this claim.
It's hard to take a debunk serious when you only analyze one side. A Bowser fanboi could pull the same stunt and complain about them not giving Bowser a super star to become invincible. Also, I'm fairly sure the animation in every Death Battle is just for show. They do those after they've analyzed and determined a winner.
I addressed this in the pinned comment of the video, but when I said that, I was referring to their overall conclusion and final thoughts. Not the beautiful fight animation done by Moro.
There are few i would like to talk about. First I think there's one little flaw that no one notices and its the phantom ruby power. I've thought alot about and my solution to its power is that basically makes anything thay originates from the virtual reality(which is were his clones and the stuff he creates originates) become real and is able to do the inverse thanks to willpower as shown when the avatar uses the replica to erase the fake sun. Anyway another it can do which not much people talk about is the ability to phase which was shown in the avatar vs infinite boss fight in the end cutscene and you mightsay its him digitalizing himself (meaning turning him self to a virtual entity instead of physical like some hologram) so that he doesn't take physical damage or him digitalizing the attack but the fact that infinite who was recreated to master the phantom ruby dispite it being a replica means that its not impossible for him to be able to phase reality bending attacks by digitalizing them. Also the chaos have been proven in multiple occasions that they are infinite power they have enough to create a whole dimension within them as seen in sonic r secret stage and have enough power to alter the universe due to there wish granting space time altering power. Also not alot people talk about the damage this infinite can like this guy is state to be stronger than all previous creations including the egg dragoon by a thousandfold with Japanese sub saying trillions and is proven to be faster than sonic which clones that could give sonic a difficultly to defeat which should massively stronger than the sonic who in half hp defeated erazor jin even after he absorbed 3 universes so these clones in a minimum can be universe level. Infinite is fraud not cuz he weak its cuz despite the power he has hes manages to get done dirty
@mrlotobvious Infinite, Eggman, and Bowser are honestly stupidly out of character in this entire fight. Bowser doesn’t have convenient power ups and getting beaten up is enough to put him down in most games.Infinite will only stop fighting if he is forced to stop. Eggman only had one fight similar to the death battle in Sonic Unleashed, and it was armies first, boss Mecha, then the emergency resort. But that ultimately was set up for the grand scheme of waking up a being of destruction. Bowser never had a set up this elaborate. Honestly, I don’t like these battles since they make them into murder rituals.
Im gonna make some counter arguments, as a fan of both "You gave kamek chance time, I don't want to hear it" I'm not sure that's a prep-time issue, that kinda just happens in like 20 seconds. The real issue is if they count it as canon "They gave him infinite, but where's starline" as of now? Dead. Before that? Wanting to be eggman's superior, which caused them to fight. Probably not the best "working together" terms "There's no way Bowser is doing anything to the egg dragoon" well, if you noticed in the animation, while he did hit the gun, the main way to destroy it was actually just throwing the electric drill attack back at it to weaken, and THEN impale the cockpit. So he didn't destroy the machine, he just broke through a part of it The metal virus is confusing because by all technicalities, shadow *did* resist it for a bit. there are moments where he's clearly spindashing into the horde, and he comes out fine. Plus, shadow was created at minimum 50 years before the metal virus, which isn't naturally occuring. And it mutates rather quickly. "Knowing Mario fans -" listen, as a sonic fan, we are in NO position to talk For the phantom Ruby I think it's more of a cancels out. The phantom Ruby alters reality, yes. So does the wonder flower. It's kinda pointless to have both because neither get an edge. Oh boy, the super sonic thing. Okay, throughout frontiers, which is after the metal virus arc in IDW, sonic says "I'll need the chaos emeralds, and maybe a little luck." Sage calculates that supersonic can't defeat the end on his own. And in the final horizon dlc (if bowser gets Mario party, we get this), supersonic is shown to be OBJECTIVELY overpowered. The chaos emeralds, when gathered, should not be able to have infinite power, while also being overpowered. As for the loyalty part...yeah they could have worded it better, essentially eggman isn't the best strategist in terms of war. Referring back to IDW, tails notes that when metal sonic, pretending to be eggman, sent out robots, they were much more coordinated. It's more like teamwork and strategy. They just phrased it bad. "Your games are still mid anyway" don't get cocky, we still had the 2010's, the worst mainline mario got was the NSMB series, which isnt even close to sonic's worst That's about all of my issues.
Honestly I was having immense issues when this started talking about infinite scaling feat which really oversells a lot of what Sonic characters have done in the past There are impressive feats but jeez none of these guys are infinite in any regard
@Skynetbear didn't break that down, but I found the logic sound, the result unacceptable. Because that means that base sonic scales beyond Solaris, and maybe I'm in the wrong, but that's ridiculous
@@burbusburbus8782 My problem was that you could make the same infinite feats for Bowser who tanked the destruction of the universe which has a similar cosmological scale to Sonic’s and had the Pure Hearts which are capable of repairing the damage caused by the Chaos Heart capable of wiping out all existence Now what we have is 2 characters who are just infinite in what they can do and the scaling gets muddy
Let's make this interesting... I'll be trying to *defend* everything I feasibly can, this comment will be updated with everything once I'm finished. "why weren't the alternate scenarios / some of Eggman's gear used in the main scenario" Because they're not made of money, they couldn't feasibly include everything in the animation. You could also make this argument for Bowser. why didn't they include the Star Rod, The Dream Stone, or The Wonder Flower? It would be the same answer, they just didn't have the budget for it. Those alternate scenarios weren't even meant to be there, they were just something Morø did for fun (further proof why he's a goat). Rest assured that even *if* it wasn't in the animation or they didn't have enough time to mention it while keeping a cohesive and well-paced conclusion, it *was* likely factored in. "They don't mention any of the stronger Eggman Mechs" Uh... Yes they do...? they're pretty explicitly listed in Eggman's arsenal. They're also probably the reason Eggman was given, and I quote: "Equivalent strength via mechs" "Eggman built a thing that transcends dimensionality and then has things later that are stated to be the strongest thing he's ever built" Cool i guess but Bowser and his army have the scaling to match. As for the Egg Dragoon being stronger than The Egg Salamander and having immeasurable speed. Fair I guess, Sonic power creep does go crazy. Though I could argue Bowser just has the stats to match. "They don't use the hard-boiled heavies" I've heard that they were cut and appeared fighting the koopalings in the storyboards, mainly because it would have just taken too much time for a segment so small. Also, just look at defense number 1. As a bonus defense, Phantom King is one of the many people who betrayed Eggman, so it's unlikely he would have factored in (at *most* we would have gotten Heavy King) "Metal Sonic should be beyond lightspeed" True, Death Battle also probably agrees with you. He *was* likely scaled to the 73 quadrillion times lightspeed feat in Eggman's analysis and the immeasurable arguments given in the black boxes during the post analysis. Also, as for the copying, it's mentioned Kamek can just shut it down in the post analysis (they also King Boo just flat out possessing technology IIRC, so that's also another counter as he could just possess Metal Sonic and stop him from doing shit). "The Phantom Ruby's illusions are real" ...True! I won't defend this, I think it was dumb for them to focus on this argument. I think choosing to focus on the Wonder Flowers debatably greater scale as mentioned in the post analysis would have been *much* better. "Infinite downplay" Yeah, You could argue Infinite is stronger then where they put him (as long as you don't argue he's Solaris level I don't have a problem LOL). Bowser's army however can reach the same scale and have the hax to take him out (Transmutation, Wishing him out of existence, you get the idea). *However,* you *can't* scale him to stuff like Mania's Phantom Ruby. Because Infinite only has a weaker prototype Phantom Ruby (to be fair, this is a detail a lot of people forget). "Why didn't they give Eggman the Lightman form?" Because of the shitton of prep it takes. Even then, the only real leg up it would give him is its memory manipulation. You can argue Bowser resists this due to his brain constantly creating backups of memories (It's his brain is also encrypted like a computer, but it's simultaneously still organic so Sage can't hack it. Even if it could be hacked, if she tried it would release Memory M & L as a defense mechanism.) Also, Chance Time was just for the lulz. Bowser has several other ways to steal items. "Solaris downplay" ...Yeah... Not much to say, Solaris scaling was downplayed based on what was said verbally. "Where's Starline?" One of the many people who betrayed him, and Eggman wouldn't be willing to work with him again. Which means he wasn't factored in. "The best for Bowser is inaccessible." Nope! He was able to keep up with Chaos Heart-amped individuals like Count Bleck and Super Dimentio, which threatened every world and dimension in all of existence by physically traveling in and destroying each one (the only exception was Dimension D due to Dimentio controlling the Void and specifically making it be safe). This would necessarily have to include the Cutout dimension, which is stated to “transcend the boundaries of space and time”, effectively making it beyond time. The Pure Hearts were also able to catch up to the Void and reverse it, meaning they’d need immeasurable speed to do so. "5D scaling" Bowser has this and 6-D scaling, for more info read "the true scope of Mario's cosmology" on reddit "Spatial displacement trap" Bowser resists it through some combination of reality warping, matter manipulation, and his own physical durability. Worst case scenario, his regeneration is just *that* good. Can Eggman resist being turned into a brick or a painting though? That's what I thought. "The metal virus" Bowser has counters to it up the ass! Just to list... A *few* 1. Party Cleanse (get rid of all the party's negative status effects) 2. Minion Spirit (allows them to resist mine corruption because they're just *that* loyal lol) 3. Even if you want to argue it's corruption is *layered.* Bowser Jr could just use the medicine he used to cure Morton of Formula:X's brainwashing (Morton was immune to Fawful's mind corruption last game). "The only thing that can counter The Phantom Ruby is The Phantom Ruby" No Limits Fallacy. The Phantom Ruby has never really interacted with other reality warping powers before, so we can't say it would be immune to it. Even then, nothing is preventing it from just being stolen (or turned into a slipper by Kamek) "The Lightman should have been used because Death Battle takes combatants at their best)" The Lightman just isn't a form Eggman has easy access to compared to something like Dreamy Bowser or Wonder Bowser where he only needs one specific item to activate the form. It'd be like giving Dr Doom The Beyonders powers because that was technically his best. It's just *not* something he can access easily, even then it's not really a guaranteed win. "The Chaos Emeralds grant infinite power, so the Grand Stars couldn't match them.) Infinite Power is... Pretty vague and undefined, it'd be a bit disingenuous to say it's infinitely above something because of a singular statement. Even then the stars aren't even the best MacGuffin Bowser has. "Loyalty doesn't matter" Okay. The argument isn't *just* that Bowser's army is more loyal. That's used as supporting evidence that Bowser's army is just better at working together, Eggman's a terrible team player who gets betrayed constantly and whose army just isn't really built to work together for an all-out war scenario like this one. "Eggman's ambitions aren't as high" Bowser's army being bigger probably also helps with the much larger conquest LMAO. In all seriousness, the point about their conquests is more so just to cap it off, not an actual important argument.
Took way too long to find a comment like this. Thank you for being one of the few actually trying to contribute to the conversation instead of the typical "Hurr salty fanboy hahaahh!!" comments (though the uploader's attitude certainly doesn't help prevent those types of comments)
@@Dawnfall_06yeah, that and the Egg Wizard were the only mechs Eggman shouldn't get. He is confirmed to have every other mech and robot he has used before though.
Well if they claim to put both of these characters at their peaks and have them fight, And one of them is a genius engineer and inventor, wouldn’t a debunk of this fight literally just come down to “why didn’t egg man have _?” He’s not a brawler by any means lol
Yea but it requires so much prep to get that super form that it doesn't even matter and even then they took it into account in a sperate senerio it wouldn't have changed the outcome whether he had it or not.
Honestly was expecting a video like this to happen but honestly, no matter what the outcome was, both sides did end up winning with this amazing peak fight, a Big W for both sides, gotta appreciate moro for all his hard work to satisfy both sides, i do hope he makes more appearances in death battle, such a talented man
Honestly, I feel like Death Battle said it best themself, Eggman feels more grounded in reality (As close to grounded in reality a balding man fighting a Mach speed hedgehog can be, anyways.) while Bowser feels more cartoonishly strong.
They did say that Mario's world is just too absurd compared to Sonics world too. I Definitely agree . Sonic's world always ....well....attempts....to have an explanation for everything. Mario's world is more of a "what you see is what you get" type of situation. Sure you do have explanations in some cases but then you have things like Chance time Some people say that Sonic is like Shonen and Mario is like a cartoon and like....yea...I agree
It would make sense, I know some Mario cast have toon force. Like in the games. I knew some M&L serie that we see Luigi use his hammer to size Mario body and other crazy stuff they do. Either Super Mario Odyssey that he doesn't take fall damage when he jump off a cliff.
@artstylereality2004 Then there's Wario who is the prime source of Toon force Characters in Mario. THE GUY CAN'T DIE, JUST BECAUSE HE DOESN'T FEEL LIKE IT.
@BBK113 JoJo fans (including myself) don't get nearly as upset or care as much for their character losing compared to dragon ball and sonic fans. They go apeshit if their character loses, but at least with among us vs. fall guys, I'm pretty sure fans of both series won't really care if either one loses.
While I still dont agree with Infinite being above Solaris and Time Eater, I can at least appreciate that you at least TRIED to explain how he could be stronger than the two via scaling, rather than just resort to just that dumb quote from the promotional material. It's nice seeing effort. Also, for every "Didnt give Eggman This or That," there's definitely one for Bowser as well. At least we got some animated Lightman and Time Eater, as well as the Metal Virus, so I can't complain Fuck Forces though
@@Unremarkable6969 Though without Forces, we wouldn't have gotten Infinite's Theme He's such a cool concept but goddamn it he's the ONLY good appeal of Forces. Thwomp'd
Mario games are boring to ME. They are polished, Galaxy is fun and cozy, and 64 broke boundaries and paved the way for the 3D platforming genre. But for me, they are just fluff. In one ear and out the other.
@@Unremarkable6969I think you are completely right. In fact I can’t even play a Mario game without being completely bored through my mind. I mean heck Sonic 1 had MULTIPLE ROUTES YOU COULD GO THROUGH ON THE LEVELS and the only game I saw from Mario that did that was a DS game. NOT EVEN THE WII GAME DID THAT LIKE BRO WHAT THE HELL. And don’t get me started on how Mario characters in almost every game have little personality while Sonic games SHOW PEOPLE GETTING KILLED IN COMICS AND GAMES LIKE BRO WHAT IS EVERYONE ON?!?!
I mean the comics are a different story as unlike the games they aren’t restricted as much and I won’t deny the first Sonic’s games definitely outshined the Mario games but uh Sonic games weren’t doing so hot until ya know frontiers and maybe the shadow game but that’s not coming until way next year but after seeing its trailer it’s probably gonna be good but anyways Mario was always consistent in quality even if it was mid it was consistent with some absolute bangers coming every once in a while but sonic games just kept on falling on its face over and over again. There wasn’t a good games for literal years. Although I do like sonic 1 gameplay more but I can see why people like Mario so much as it’s relaxing its easy and it’s fun for them
7:01 This is what I like to call "Yamcha Syndrome". Where a character is mocked for being a pushover or weak in their franchise but is actually considered really strong when in a vacuum, just like Yamcha. The only reason why Infinite is viewed as so is because that's just how strong Sonic, Shadow and their friends really are in comparison.
Yeah it's kind funny to me. Infinite's such a loser in his own series...that he's kind of the reason everyone in Sonic is Universal+ in base, because they're all within 2 or 3 degrees of chain scaling to this guy.
@@serialdreamer8386 I mean he was literally working alongside Sonic. How they were able to double boost is beyond me, but still, he had help. A lot of it.
@@NeonBlueLight Infinite defeated Sonic. Which means he was stronger than Sonic. Then Sonic defeated Infinite. Which means Sonic got stronger. Soon After, the newbie fought against Infinite which was at his peak(?) The newbie defeated him making him have to flee. Then the final battle which defeated him definitivelly was by the double boost.
he wants to build a theme park so badly its the whole fucking reason the fight began "this territory is now the base for my upcoming eggmanland 2" he almost kills sonic and mass produces robots plus pisses on the moon plus threatens timelines SO HE CAN BUILD A THEME PARK
I have seen so many of these 'debunking' videos, and every time they're from a channel that revolves around Sonic and its fandom. It's almost like there's a pattern..
Sooo like, are you gonna disprove what they’re saying? Thats not an argument or even a point to make. Of course people who care about something in a large fanbase are going to call out miscalculations or blatant lowballing when they’re also clearly versed in the franchise. Sounds like 1/10 ragebait I gotta say
That's not really the issue. The issue is that they look at one side and one alone. This entire video is about how Robotnik would win if he got more of at his disposal. Why not do the same with Bowser? If one side scales up then the other should as well tbh. And this is coming from someone who didn't really care who won or not. I might not have gotten my point across in my original post so sorry about that, but my point still stands, there's an obvious bias. I mean come on, they bring up in the video that they don't like Mario multiple times. But, it doesn't really matter in the end since the Death Battle happened and they chose the winner, no point in arguing it.
@@yaboical2744 It was a simple observation I made when I looked up the Death Battle to watch again and saw debunking videos underneath it, all with the same pattern. People can still argue about it, I'm not going to stop them, but what I meant was that these videos aren't going to magically change the outcome of the Death Battle. They're a little redundant I guess is all.
@@PheasantRunFarm I agree with that, but even if it won’t change the outcome of this particular battle it doesn’t mean something like this won’t be done again, so it’s good that they get all the inconsistencies or misinterpretations out of the way,Iike how they had the metal sonic versus cell debate beforehand
I respect your debunk, but I still think Bowser wins this. Especially since you didnt really do a good job Debunking the Bowser stuff since you skipped over his section. Not to mention, powerscaling is way too subjective to just say the Mario cast CANT have immersurable speed and that Bowser cant match the emeralds if he has the stars AND the dream stone.
Power scaling isn't subjective, it's objective, it's just that most people are too biased to admit their wrong, or most people don't do proper research Something DB is known for... I still remember those god awful outcomes between Hulk vs Broly, Megatron vs Frieza, and Discord vs Bill cypher
Multiversal base mario and luigi is some of the dumbest power scaling wank I've seen and completely breaks the narrative of every game. This isn't even a kirby situation where at least the character is portrayed as doing amazing feats on screen to somewhat back up the scaling. Mario has 0 planet busting feats whatsoever. He has dozens of building level and below antifeats. He is supposed to be physically weaker than regual bowser. Why are people trying to use dreamy bowser to scale everyone to multiversal and beyond. Modern powerscaling is nonsense
That’s because they used the animation to show how both were different leaders, which ties into the post analysis and overall conclusion. Bowser was rushing in on the front lines, while Eggman sent his troops ahead from far away. It’s in character for both of them.
"Mario fans,ur games are mid" sonic getting one "new" good game dosent mean that we forgot the other shitty games that lasted more than a decade,while mario games were killing it.
Sonic hasn't had a bad game since Sonic Boom, and even that was made by a completely different studio called, "Big Red Button" Sure, games like Forces and Superstars aren't great, but they're not broken.
I mean, you have some fair points, but a lot of credibility is lost when you say "I don't know much about Mario so we'll skip Bowser's segment," and proceed to sweep a lot of Bowser's feats under the rug with by saying "there's no way he'd be able to match that." I'd say it's fine to disagree with the outcome, but you could get your point across more effectively if you're willing to analyze the opposing side more thoroughly. Still though, some valid points made in this vid
Ok just pointing something out here. The Chaos Emeralds are NOT infinite, they are LIMITLESS. Implying that the limits of their energy capacity have yet to be truely found and measured. They can still be overtaxed and drained if met with a similar or greater power. Only the Master Emerald ITSELF is truely infinite, now if we were talking about the HYPER EMERALDS though…that is another story entirely, and this is coming from a die hard Sonic Fan.
@ then tell me, why can’t Sonic stay super forever? Why can they even be drained to a useless state if their power was infinite in total? (Source: Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Unleashed). Why do you think the word “Limitless” exists in the English dictionary if the Emeralds don’t follow the logic of having infinity energy as you so say?
@ sonic can stay in super for as long as he likes, in advance he was in it for weeks and sonic is the only character in the series with full control over them(besides knuckles) so silver, tails, metal sonic and shadow the emeralds go away on there own
@ you do understand how space works right? The farther you go from Earth the more noticeable the time difference is. A week on Mobius would be the time to fly to the final boss, fight it and fly back before the time limit runs out, which would only be a few minutes on Sonic's end.
I don’t think it can be stated enough that Eggman does not have a single counter for dark magic other than killing bowser before he could use it. They did do that, but he can revive many times. There is feasibly no way of stopping bowser from just cheesing the fight with transformation magic or the dream star other than just praying to God that he has the pride and honor not to do so. While the animation isn’t that accurate, the real result would still be a sweep for Bowser’s army.
i dont get how it didnt kill those enemies behind him tho, it literally went past bowser and could easily destroy the planet, especially bc the emeralds
1:13 because animation is expensive. And also because the only reason this fight is an army fight at all, is because Moro essentially went, "Hold my Beer" if the fight was a traditional 1 on 1. They absolutely would have invluded stuff like the spatual displacement trap in the animation.
2:46 blatant hyperbole referring to a better universe aside 3:48 maybe use the x shadow generations one next time 3:58 cause it’s a misstranslation it was womanizer not feminist 4:41 allat to still remain the biggest fraud in the franchise 6:29 a sun not even the size of an island 6:33 another misstranslation null space was never stated to be infinite and time does exist in nullspace 7:33 already debunked nullspace but even if we took what you said literally this is an high uni feat at best which is below many sonic villains 8:06 excluding how shadow generations proved how modern sonic was carrying by the fact classic sonic is a sonic before heroes and in heroes sonic needed super to beat metal overlord while shadow in generations only needed his base form 8:22 excluding the fact it’s been stated countless times in generations the time eater only targeted 1 timeline 8:54 you seem to forget it took Solaris 3 super hedgehogs and both silver and shadow are stronger than Classic sonic 10:00 cause it wasn’t and he is simply overhyped for nothing 10:02 yes a canon ability kamek always had 10:40 Solaris is not above time 10:56 budget aside bowser did not get neither the koopalings, the bowser kids, boom boom etc etc 11:40 Here all the best feats I had more infinite speed feats but I preferred using the best ones Mario time travelling with pure movement Bowser warping space and time and travelling to the past and different timelines ( both yoshi island ds ) The rpg cast moving while culex eats space-time and exist across all of time at once ( mario rpg remake ) Mario surfing through time ( and reaching the real world ) ( mario Time Machine ) Mario moving in stopped time ( mario 64 ) Mario travelling to other dreams and universes ( mario party 5 ) The heroes crossing from the main dimension to the darkmess one and viceversa ( Mario + rabbids sparks of hope ) Bowser dodging bowser meteors which tagged starship Mario which can cross space-time and universal realms in the universe ( a Mario universe is build like a db macrocosm ) ( Mario galaxy 2 ) 3D world cast keeping up with green stars users and the green stars can cross the universe and 6 atleast space-time continuums in seconds ( mario galaxy 2 and 3D world ) Mario moving in matter splatter galaxy which is a different region of space-time ( Mario galaxy 1 ) Mario moving in the dreams that are aspatial and atemporal ( dreams in Mario can exist across the past,present and future ) Mario and the gang moving in bowser warped station which transcends space and time ( mario party 8 ) and that’s the mainline stuff Mario keeping up with the star spirits who can move in different dimensions ( paper Mario 64 ) Luigi moving in a region where both space and time got completely lost ( paper Mario the thousand year door ) Mario moving in the void which was going to erase all of existence, all timelines, all higher dimensions, pocket realms, space and time etc ( super paper Mario ) Mario moving in a erased world devoid of space and time ( super paper Mario ) Mario moving in cut out which transcends space,time and dimensions ( paper Mario color splash ) and bowser is one shotting the egg dragon on accident 12:00 hahahaha no even without paper Mario or the RPGs in general bowser is easily getting past 4D 13:02 plot inducement stupidity and shadow was built on an a cure to all the diseases gerald knew and we all know he could not cure Maria 13:36 oh please as if sonic fans aren’t infinitely worse just like infinite supposedly has reasonings for strongest statement ( he doesn’t ) bowser has own intelligence feats for an iq almost on par of Eggman 13:58 hitchen razor 14:20 and guess what they did not use wonder bowser also eggman super form isn’t even a real super form and the chaos emeralds got drained of all their power multiple times in canon 14:39 awesome the power stars are also stated to have incalculable power and they are weaker than the grand stars 15:10 you joke and all but bonds are actually a source of strength in the Marioverse 15:21 yeah the god tiers the low tiers are not touching bowser army 16:00 accidentally and cause of other sources 16:36 sonic fans don’t really get the opinion to say which games are mid and which aren’t
Just because something isn't in the animation doesn't mean they didn't factor it into the result do you seriously expect them to include the metal virus on top of everything else in the episode
Not even just that, they directly explain that Bowser had a direct counter to it (transmuting the army back using his wand). Like why would they include something that would be instantly and perfectly countered? It's a waste
@@MindForgedManacletransmutation magic is ineffective against metal virus, if it was eggman would've put a end to all of it since he also has transmutation technologies. he literally explained in this video, you didnt watched it did you?
Good Joke, Did you ever play Adventures, Unleashead , Generations, Frontiers, etc? of course you don't , you are a mario fan, so your opinion is invalid, the worst part is that you say "most of sonic games are trash" , i'm literally laughing from death, you have no idea who you are dealing with.
And it's honestly a bit frustrating because Eggman _could_ have helped. He just needed to come down in one of his robots stronger than the Final Egg Blaster, something with scaling comparable to Metal. Like, at least the Egg Salamander. No no. Giant Eggman Robot from the movie.
@@justice8718 Oh yeah. That thing technically doesn't even have Super Sonic scaling; but it's stats to surpass Infinite and it's ability to just snap up an army to dwarf everything the Jackle did in Forces would've been a major boon to Eggman. But I guess they thought we wouldn't want to see Eggman rely on his Phantom Rubies too much; since their only...some of his most powerful & versatile tools.
@@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg Not really. Super Sonic generally is something to exhaust and chip down. The death egg robot in its final phase had to be triple boosted to be defeated and those effects are very comparable to the strongest attacks we’ve seen from Super Sonic.
Watched one minute of the video before clicking off bruh. "Why didn't they use the alternate scenarios in the fight" because none of those things change the outcome u bum they literally said this 💀
Finally, someone gets it. Why would they make the whole fight about scenarios that either end in a tie or where Eggman still loses? If both sides had all their reality warping, it would just tie no matter what. So neither side got their reality warping. Which means Bowser wins. It's not like they didn't have the 7 friggin Chaos Emeralds, they were not downplayed at all.
It's because of the higher gravity (which is calculated to be a lot stronger than earth's gravity) causing the thwomp to fall faster therefor having greater impact therefor defeating infinite. No, a thwomp alone cannot beat all sonic bosses.
@@Kirb_The_Menace Funny and SUPER forced since Infinite isn't actually stupid in thee game. He'd more likely have fired lasers, or summoned copies of villains with the phantom ruby to fight. Hell, he was ony messing with gravity in the game to mess with the Avatar and the resistence from Eggman's orders. They had him do the one thing that King Boo would be able to properly counter with it being out of character for him so that moment, while funny at first, really sours the result for me.
Oh dear... It appears that I have stepped into a war zone. Good thing I have the thousand-yard stare meme in my digital clipboard, like every time a Death Battle drops.
“Mario games are mid” Mario Wonder Mario 64 Super Mario world Paper Mario Paper Mario TTYD Mario and Luigi:Bowser’s inside story Mario and Luigi:Dream Team. Super Mario Galaxy Super Mario Odyssey Tons of Mario Rom hacks Yeah I’m not taking that seriously
What? Mario and Luigi brothership is good. It’s not the greatest game but it’s far from bad. And how is nsmbu bad? The game is bland but so is sonic forces.
Aight but this entire death battle goes to bowser 100% in one outcome. Bowser takes the super Crown power-Up and becomes Bowsette. His "feminist" side will let Bowsette crush him. LUL
In my opinion, I believe the biggest issue with the outcome is that Bowser won due to misleading comparisons. Here are some examples of what I mean. Bowser held the power advantage for these three reasons, but each of them is only sort of true. Assault Modle Death Egg Robot laser blast vs Bowser's castle punch: This comparison fails for a multitude of reasons, but the most obvious issue is that it doesn't compare the combatants at their best. Egg Salamander, Egg Wizard, Time Eater, etc, are leaps and bounds stronger than a random Death Egg Robot while Dreamy Bowser, Fury Bowser, and Pure Hearts Bowser are all far above his regular giant form. That aside, it's also important to consider the relative strength of the things that perform these feats. On Bowsers end, the castle punch is performed by Bowser himself in his giant form no less which means that this feat belongs to the strongest member of the koopa troop aside from other Bowser forms. Meanwhile, on Eggmans' side, the mass produced Death Egg Robot is effectively a super strong foot soldier and is nowhere near as powerful as the real heavy hitters in Eggmans army. To illustrate why this is misleading, imagine I calced Infinite creating a miniature star as 1 petaton of tnt and also calced King Bob-Oms explosions at 10 tons of tnt and used this to justify Eggman having a power advantage, In this case the comparison is technically true but it fails to acknowledge that Infinite is higher on the pecking order of Eggmans army than king Bob-Om is in Bowser's army. Black hole comparison: Once again, an unconscious Bowser and a damaged Egg Mobile are far from the peaks of each character. Anyways this is going to sound super dumb but just bear with me. Does surviving a bigger black hole make your durability more impressive because when you think about it, black holes destroy things by spaghetifying them. Also, I just googled it, and apparently, smaller black holes spaghetify things more severely, which means that surviving a small black hole is more impressive. Last, I'm not sure where death battle got the information that the planetoid used to measure Bowsers' black hole was 12000km when we see tiny planets exist in the Mario universe. Yoshi star feat vs Final Egg Blaster: This is the best comparison, but it's weird that they implied Yoshi was weaker than Bowser when everyone and their mom has 1 v 1ed Bowser by this point and won. On a different note, it's odd they never brought up Emerel capturing the FEBs power or Infinite literally using the Death Egg as a power source for his Ruby Prototype, but it is what it is.
I am an expert in these two franchises, and i agree with what deathbattle said as the winner. Once they announced it, i said "Bowser is going to win, it just depends on how long Metal Sonic can hold out. Eggman has no win condition." The reason being, everyone one of Eggman's win conditions Bowser has answers to, or can just say "no" to so in the end its just a raw feat of who can overpower whom and if Bowser ever caught Eggman, Eggman was toast. Even if Bowser couldn't' use a single one of his biggest things twice, Eggman just couldn't win that war of attrition. I'll go over all of the win conditions I saw of Eggman and how Bowser can counter them. Before I start, Bowser has a few mcguffins of his own. Star Rod, Dream Stone, Grand Stars, Pure Hearts, Wonder Flower. Eggman would need to counter all 5 of these and still have things left in the tank that could take out Bowser before he could win. And in the case of the Grand Stars, he might need to do it multiple times. 1. Lightform, Bowser can use the Wonder Flower, Star Rod, or Dream Stone to counter this and win handily as his things are just stronger. 2. Nightmare Eggman, Same deal, although the Star Rod and ESPECIALLY Dream Stone are very very strong here as both are way stronger at manipulating dreams than Eggman is. (To put this in perspective, could Ngihtmare Eggman beat Kirby? Because Kirby would use the same star rod against him.), Dream Stone would counter this in a thanos snap and not use any effort on Bowsers part. 3. Death Egg full power laser, Bowser has survived a supernova into a supermassive black hole. NOTHING eggman has done can rival that amount of power. Death Battle actually undersells how insane of a feat that is. Bowser could take a few punches from Popeye before he'd feel them to put it in perspective. (Granted Popeye beats Bowser no question.) This would greatly damage Bowser no question though, and they show that clear as day as it took him to Dry Bowser. Or he can just Star Rod and become immune to it, but that'd lead to the planet being cracked. 4. The Titans, If sage could summon these, they'd get wrecked by Fury bowser as Fury bowser is way stronger than when he fought Mechanized peach's castle and that thing summoned black holes. (Which are integral to the fight. Bowser would routinely pull himself out of said black hole to attack.) and he could easily overpower them. 5. Metal Virus, They explained it, Bowser can just reverse the effects via his own magic, Kamek's magic, Jr's magic, or pull out the Star Rod or Dream Stone to wish it away/wish for immunity. Or an even funnier method, he gives his minions Metal caps which would turn them into metal anyway and cancel it out. 6. Spacial Displacement Device, This one I thought might be a win condition for Eggman, until it was made clear it would just be too slow to rip Bowser apart before any of his minions saved him with a variety of methods. It was a lot more fragile than I thought it would be. Kamek, Jr, king boo, or even just Bowser resisting it with his own magic would be enough. This could also use up one of Bowsers win conditions as well, such as the Star Rod or Dream Stone or Wonder Flower to counter it but that isn't needed here. 7. Phantom Ruby Prototype and Phantom Ruby itself, including Infinite, This is the one people have contention with, but they were completely right with how they used it. These would wipe out Bowser's minions but against the koopa himself they had no real way of doing anything but inconvenience him. He could tough out any phatnom ruby shenanigans, use the Wonder Flower to just get rid of it, just overpower it, or have King Boo do what he did. Infinite isn't as strong as people make him out to be. He is a glass cannon, very good at an initial attack, but after that he folds quickly. He couldn't even do that gravity thing in the game, so they buffed him here by quite a lot. Now you might mention Null Space, but Bowser has ways of getting out of that too. Granted he'd have to use say, the Pure Hearts to get out which is a MAJOR trump card, but he can do it. And he could just tank the sun falling on his head so he doesn't care about that one. 8. Metal Sonic and his forms, including Super metal sonic. This is Eggman's best chance at beating Bowser out of everything he had. Metal Sonic himself could take out everyone in the koopa troop that wasn't Bowser himself no question, even without going super. The question is if Super Neo could stand up to the Dream Stone, Star Rod, or a Grand Star. This is where ti gets abstract, but considering only living creatures can draw the full power of the Chaos Emeralds and not machines, there was a good chance Bowser would just win. Granted any of Bowsers biological abilities Metal could copy, but Kamek like they showed can just turn that power off, hence why Metal didn't copy anything until after he knocked Kamek out. 9. Time Eater, well, bowser just beats this in Fury. He can travel through time as well with his own magic, so this doesn't mean anything. Dream Stone is overkill here. 10. Chaos Emeralds themselves, Bowser could swap them, steal a single one, or just overpower them. The issue here isn't that the Chaos Emeralds are weak, they're not. Its that Eggman can't harness their full power with his machines. And scaling to Solaris doesn't matter because of that, and also because of Bowser beating Super Dimentio who had the power to wipe out the multiverse and possibly recreate it, not just the timelines of a single universe which just outscales Solaris. 11. Eggman just cracking the planet. Bowser can breath in space and has the ability to move through space. (Yes there is the can't breath game over in Super Paper Mario, but he learned how to breath in space later on.) so this wouldn't mean too much. Granted it would be him, Jr. and Kamek unless an airship survived that his minions could be on, while Eggman would have himself, sage and metal, and thats just boring. 12. Neo Metal uses Chaos Control shenanigans. Unfortunitally, Bowser has counters to this through his own powers, Kamek, King Boo, or a simple mario powerup like the Stopwatch. And even if the time freeze stuck, there wasn't a whole lot Metal could do in chaos control to do enough damage as not even Shadow does damage during chaos control fully freezing time. (He can do damage when the enemy is slowed down in chaos control however, which leaves Bowser the ability to counteract it or defend himself from it.) I can explain any other points or discuss any others if you got any. Eggman is strong, but the problem he runs into is that he is reliant on science and anime logic, Bowser relies on Magic and cartoon logic. Eggman would need a way to deal with Bowsers magic to use any of his more esoteric win conditions, which he would need because he didn't have the ability to overpower him. And he'd need to deal with ALL of bowser's win conditions at nearly all times while Bowser could systematically dismantle all of eggmans which Eggman can't re-use like Bowser can. And Eggman couldn't exhaust Bowser's mcguffins while having anything left that could deal with Bowser as Bowser can counter a lot of Eggman's stuff without needing to resort to anything beyond Fury while Eggman only really had Metal Sonic to rely on outside of his own mcguffins that could hurt Bowser.
@@Unremarkable6969 TDLR, A lot of Eggman's win conditions Bowser can counter without using his own large win conditions, while Eggman could only pressure Bowser with Metal Sonic. And the ones he needs to use his own items to counter, he has enough items to counter them all without using the same thing twice.
To quote a famous person “The person who would win in a fight is the person the script writers want to win, these are fictional characters so stop asking these boneheaded questions.”
With you respect this misses the entire point considering this is speaking from a story perspective not a versus battle perspective of which established stats would be taken into account rather than ones being pulled out of the ass (at least in a good one anyway)
You know what I just noticed, every time they do a Mario vs Sonic episode, it always takes place in the Mario universe, which also gives them a home field advantage.
@@Lucid_Tales1 yk how is the death battle, i'm only saying that because in Sonic 3 and knuckles the egg robots can manipulate eggman technology an sage obviusly can
Tbh, powerscaling sucks and everyone should already know this. Both fandoms want this character to win or that character to win. Just do it yourself if you're gonna burn someone else for doing what you want to do. They're obviously trying, and mind you, it depends on the author, writer, whatever you wanna call em. It depends on them to decide who wins.
Actually if you're referring to stan lee's statement he was talking about inverse not crossverse the only thing that sucks are people who take powerscaling seriously You're even talking about the concept or idea just the community So can I say “X” show is trash because the fandom is?
@Phantom-Shadow567 Corssverse follows the same principles. The fans want both characters with different stories to win. Batman vs. Superman, Superman without holding back wipes Batman. He's literally just a man. But, with prep time, he'll win because of his ingenuity and smarts. So, whether it was intentionally meant to be inverse doesn't mean the same principles can't be applied for crossverse. Powerscaling still sucks nonetheless.
@Phantom-Shadow567 Also, I never said the show is trash. All I said was that powerscaling sucks. It's not about the character being strong. For example, OPM is a gag anime about Saitama who can literally beat anything in one punch, that's his thing. Could he beat Goku? I don't care nor know because both characters are immensely strong. The only difference is that Saitama isn't shown to ever take any damage whatsoever, besides any jokes like a cat or him not catching a fly.
@Lucid_Tales1 The OPM thing has been debunked hundreds of times and is a no limits fallacy being a gag character pretty much means nothing And again you never said powerscaling sucks it's the community
@@Lucid_Tales1 Crossverse would mean not having the influence of writers it's characters from two completely different verses Batman vs Superman doesn't even play an important role here
I'll admit, I don't know much about Mario and I'm more of a Sonic fan so maybe I don't have the right to say much considering I never researched another verse, but... I don't really think calling another game "mid" is gonna help the PR side of the argument lol
I do agree that Bowser wins but damn they lowballed the hell out of Eggman. They gave Bowser the star rod, pure hearts, dream stone, power stars, grand star and chance time. They didn’t give Eggman the Nega Wisp Armor, Egg Emperor, Egg Salamander and Eggman roulette. They lowballed the chaos emeralds and Time Eater. They did say that Dreamy Bowser could erase Time Eater out of existence except both Princess Peach and Starlow were able to counter it so chaos energy could do so as well. I think Bowser was hyperbolizing when he said he could erase Mario and Luigi from existence. Also the phantom ruby has been stated by official sources to be comparable to the chaos emeralds which are outerversal. I do agree that Bowser wins but they made this fight way more of a stomp than it really is. I think this fight is way closer than most people think.
15:10 You can debunk it by saying most of Eggmans army works like a hive mind under sage, who would have created millions of Battle plans for what ever Bowsers toops try, meaning they would have perfect coordination, the only exceptions being Metal sonic, infinite and non-robotic minions.
That requires Sage to KNOW what all their abilities are. Sure, she could theorize, but not without concrete proof...which is kinda hard to do during a chaotic war.
@@colvamoon6962 @RedRance69 you both know that she can update her battle plans as the fight goes on? it's not like she's not gonna know what's happening she's an hyper advanced ai who formed a plan to take down the embodiment of death and destruction, she won't get overwhelmed and confused like a human, she'll be learning and adapting the battle plan as the battle goes on, Like how She updated the battle plan against the end, as the game went on she updated and adapted till she created a plan to beat the end, and it worked.
@@RedRance69 And it still doesn't change the fact the egg army is a hive mind, so there won't be any form of infighting or confusion, they will all be updating and processing this info at the same time, sending their data to Sage and the egg net to update the battle plan. that's how Ai work, the more data they get, the better they get at something.
Good points but i disagree with sonic having immeasurable speed. I think him fixing time in sonic generations is just him running through levels again to restore time i dont think hes running fast enough to restore time
Yeah most likely but Super Sonic would definitely have immeasurable because of the Solaris fight. The data book states that the trio fight in the past, present, and future. This would require either each member of the trio to travel to different points in time to fight Solaris, or the trio can straight up attack through time. Both would require immeasurable speeds and Solaris is able to shoot beams throughout time. Time eater also fights super sonic which would scale to Solaris. As well as fighting him in an infinite time stream at the end of time outside of reality. We see parts of the Sonics world fly within the tube and Time Eater is able to effect the time within it. Both of these feats would give Super Neo and Time eater immeasurable speed
I think he is immeasurable due to the fact his prior enemies were legit lightspeed or MFTL so yeah it's more consistent that way. And I personally think sonic using his speed to restore life plays into the god of the wind vibe. And is well done. To say a plumber who somehow is able to destroy a evil dinosaur with destructive powers but can't work a pipe better than luigi.
1:13 Let's compare the teams used, shall we: Bowser team: -Himself -Bowser Jr -Kamek -King Boo -Filler troops Eggman team: -Death Egg Robot -Death Egg -Egg Dragoon -Sage -Metal Sonic -Infinite -Filler troops So both teams were balanced in terms of amount of characters (and Eggman even had a slight edge in that aspect), giving more stuff to Eggman would be unfair. Also neither Bowser nor Sonic have innaccissble/inmeasurable speed, specially not when Sonic himself says he was too slow to save Tails in Lost World.
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Kamek having chance time isn’t something wrong Miyamoto itself said that all of Mario is canon (except Mario hotel) and kamek stick can just teleport things by himself or king boo (and even regular boo’s) can become intangible grab object and become intangible with the object itself so stealing things is a good and great wincon Also since e Mario cosmology is so weird with potential infinite multiverses or hyper verses is scaling is actually close to sonic
So all your points are interesting. However, all I need to say to counter all of them is this. Dreamy Bowser could literally just wish all of Eggman's army, Eggman, Time Eater, Super Neo, Infinite, etc, away. The end. Like, yeah, Super Neo is powerful as hell, but he could literally just get wished away. Just a little OP. As to why he didn't against Mario and Luigi? Plot armour. You can argue if that's dumb or not, but it doesn't stop it from being true. The battle is literally magic vs technology. Though I suppose the Chaos Emeralds and Phantom Ruby is kinda magical with what they can do. But again, they were already addressed which is why I agree with calling the Trump Cards category a tie. Also, a little word of advice? Saying that Mario games are mid when that has nothing to do with the argument is really dumb. Like, what, Sonic 06 is widely considered a horrible game, so does the Emerald scaling to Solaris no longer apply? Are the emeralds actually not a multiverse power anymore and the more plentiful Grand Stars now are far more powerful than them? And Sonic Forces is again, considered mid or terrible by many. Does that mean all the stuff about the Phantom Ruby no longer apply and it only creates illusions so the Wonder Flower would easily overpower it? Like I don't get why you had the need to say that. It doesn't bring anything to the argument and just makes you look salty. It's ok if you think Mario games are mid, but don't put that in a video when it has nothing to do with your argument.
as a sonic fan I can confidently confirm when it comes to games, mario kinda takes the win but sonic unleashed and the adventure games will forever be my top tiers
It's like you didn't watch the explainer at the end. Eggman's trump cards weren't ignored. They either wouldn't be enough to progress the battle past a tie, or in the case of the Phantom Ruby, would be an Eggman loss that still required only giving Eggman weeks of prep-time and not Bowser. It doesn't seem complicated and in the DB itself, they don't want to add big abilities that can be instantly undone or tied by the other side: Wonder Flower > Phantom Ruby. WF is an actual universal reality warper and has a shorter charge time. PR->Light Man is a planetary-level perception controller and requires weeks of charging on a PR prototype gem. Controlling perception on a planetary scale is an inarguable loss to a universal reality warper. The other Eggman trump cards are reality warpers, but Bowser has 3 of those (Wonder Flower, Star Rod and Dream Stone). So as long as both sides are treated equivalently (either getting only 1 such trump card each or getting them all), it's at best a tie. Like why would they add the Paradox Prism if the Pure Hearts are a perfect counter? What's the point of giving Bowser the Star Rod if Eggman could counter it as Nightmare Eggman? DBs that can only logically end as a tie should not be common. Phantom Ruby is just a straight loss though. But without one side having an obvious deficiency or limitation, a battle between universal reality warpers has no obvious winner. Which negates the point of having a Death Battle between them to begin with. I mean, if Bowser had lost this despite the same abilities being used, I wouldn't complain that he wasn't given the Wonder Flower. Because a universal reality warper will obviously win against a non-reality warper. But Bowser wasn't given reality warping here either, so it just comes across as you complaining that Eggman lost.
Problem: The wonder flower vs the phantom ruby debate are only about range. The two of then work warping reality and the phantom ruby created and infinite sized world in forces. Saying "planet level" as if it couldn't do more than that is plain wrong. Besides that Eggman's weapons aside from hax are also stronger when you include scaling. The robots from rush hit harder than any of Bowser's objects, the dreamy stone failed Bowser when he took enough damage and he is also outmatched in speed so Eggman will pull up his wincons faster than him
The fact that this video and a lot of the comments are just sonic fanboys crying there villian didn't win everything eggman had bowser could counter bowser also had so much power striped from him as well during the fight yet they were forgotten u don't hear me crying about it i was fine with the outcome either way because there both cool is it that hard to except someone else beating your character
I only made it 4 minutes into your video, and Im so tired of the whining, Im leaving. However, here's some food for thought. They probably didnt include the alternate scenarios because the runtime on this video is pretty big for DB. And the alternate scenario stuff would not have changed the outcome at all. They explained why when they showed them. Flashing a few seconds of alternate scenario and giving an explanation is better than getting nothing. And there's a ton of stuff they didnt even touch on for Bowser. Its kinda weak they scaled Bowser from Yoshi when Bowser has better power feats in the game series than that stupid Raphael the Raven bullshit. Bowser is basically an invulnerable eldritch horror made into a cartoon. And your complaint about them using the wrong Death Egg Robot also doesnt change much. If the actual Death Egg Robot is more than one million times more powerful than the mass produced model power feat they mentioned, it still scales to less than 1% of the Bowser Castle punch feat. Also, don't forget to mention how wrong Death Battle got it for Eggman because Eggman didn't have someone on his own team betray him at a pivotal moment in the fight, like what usually happens in every Sonic game I've played.
Also, just had this thought, so I thought I'd leave this here. Think about how ridiculous it is to one-shot someone who is your equal in every way. On top of that, Bowser's best durability feat was falling into a black hole, and surviving without issue, right. Meaning he can survive spaghettification and contact with the singularity, he can teleport out, and then time travel back to his time. Survivng a supernova is dumb too, but not as impressive as the math involved with surviving infinite gravity. And then he was able to one-shot himself, so his power level is far far beyond black hole durability in his base form. That is so stupidly OP.... I'm not surprised that the Death Battle guys didn't point this out because of how absurd this is.
I do sometimes feel Death Battle focuses too much on an entertaining fight and maybe their favorites that they omit tide turning details. But this isn't some Newgrounds Mario vs Sonic fight, this is how Game Theory intended to be, if not was, for fights between characters of similar themes. Still, at least this one wasn't some one sided bird flipping message.
One of my main gripes is that Metal Sonic is actually rather underpowered. Yes yes, we’ve seen the “he died because he broke his back carrying the team” joke a million times at this point, but he could have carried a lot more. Metal scales almost 1:1 with Archie Sonic in their basic forms. Neo Metal Sonic then beats Sonic, Super Sonic then beats Neo Metal, and Super Neo Metal scales up to Super Sonic for a large majority of stats. Super Neo Metal Sonic, the highest form seen in the comics and used in the battle, is way stronger than seen in this fight. Super Sonic can reach reality and even multiverse levels that can alter reality and reach speeds “beyond space and time”. Super Neo Metal Sonic can’t manipulate _reality_ the same way as Super Sonic, but he reaches the same “beyond space and time” speed and he can certainly destroy timelines with sheer energy attacks alone. That alone makes me wonder how his energy attack didn’t hold up again Bowser, who is a Galactic to Multigactic threat at most. What is theorized to be holding Super Neo Metal from tapping into Super Sonic’s chaos control. Chaos control is the ability to manipulate and control chaos energy, chaos energy representing the nature of the multiverse itself. It is often remembered as what lets Shadow teleport around. Super Sonic gets so much control over this that he threatened the entire multiverse in terms of sheer power and reality manipulating abilities. And what prevents Super Neo Metal from doing this is the fact he is a machine driven by cold logic, rather than the emotions and instincts necessary to let Chaos energy flow through you. And Metal Sonic, particularly his Super Neo form, is all about learning and evolving, and theory I’ve seen is that it won’t be long before his form allows him to evolve true sapience for emotions and instincts. Of course, this speculation and theory crafting has no bearing on the Death Battle.
Archie sonic and Archie feats and scaling wasn't used, only the IDW comics and the games, bowser also didn't get mario Kun But I agree super neo metal sonic probably should of lasted longer, ((though that was a pretty epic dad bowser moment))
One of metal sonic's most consistent feats is it being on par with sonic's both game and lore wise, with an actual confirmation that sonic in sonic CD was fast enough to be forward and backwards in time and considering they also took feats from the archie comics means it's even faster so I kinda get how metal hardcarried this fight Also yall forgot how eggman managed to tame a monster who could just manipulate the entire flow of time and space in generations?
Metal Sonic is now nothing more than a jobber. Jobbed to Amy, jobbed to the Chaotix, jobbed to Shadow. He’s not equal with Sonic and hasn’t been since Heroes.
@@someguy9970Metal being weak now doesn’t matter. If metal was overwhelming strong a one point, like say how he is in Sonic Heroes, then they will use that version. They will only use his strongest version.
"For Mario fans, enjoy your win. Your games are still mid anyway." ...Sonic 06 Sonic R Sonic Lost Worlds Sonic Boom Sonic Forces Sonic Free Riders Sonic Spinball Sonic Shuffle Sonic 4 Sonic Boom: Fire and Ice Sonic Generation (3DS) Sonic CD (sorry) Sonic Chaos ... Yeah...don't act like Sonic games are perfect.
Yes, Sonic 06 is bad. Legendarily so. Sonic R is mid. Fun, if you're playing just to mess around with it. Sonic Lost World is polished, but yeah. Not a great game. Sonic Boom is 🤮 Sonic Forces was disappointing, but it's not broken. Just boring and stale. Sonic Free Riders is 🤮 Sonic Spinball is good, if you adjust the speed of Sonic in the settings. Sonic Shuffle is so incredibly mid Sonic 4 is 🤮 Sonic Boom: Fire and Ice is a game for sure. Sonic Generations (3DS) is okay, but disappointing. Sonic CD is PEAK MASTERPIECE, METAL SONIC BABYYYYY (It's okay idk) Sonic Chaos is only funny because in the manual, it says Eggman wants the Chaos Emeralds to build Nuclear weapons.
Its funny that everyone I've seen argue that is outcome is accurate resorts to its just Sonic fans or coping. When the only thing they have to rely on is outrageous third party scaling and no viable feats. If you looked Miyamoto in the face and told him Mario can beat Vegeta and Bardock in a fight would you not expect him to laugh in your face?
not surprised that a content creator with a shadow the hedgehog pfp is arguing a losing battle on why eggman shouldve won, they explained it, and showed examples of what couldve happened and then some, the fights over eggman lost and you are clearly salty
You act like Death Battle is gospel. Their scaling is consistently garbage. If Eggman unsubjectively wins, and if someone is passionate enough to willingly prove that so, then that just makes YOU the bias hater.
@thestickmansavioryt1941 I'm not saying I'm a hater i like both franchises, nor am I say that it's gospel I'm just saying what's done is done you need to get over it because it's clear they did their research on everything and you are just a hater, who's clearly just upset to see that a sonic charecter lost
To be honest the alternative scenarios did show us what would happen if Eggman brought out some other tools, plus let's not down play Mario scaling since they don't give a fuck about it whiich leads to the most absurd feats you can imagine. But if I can say something about the whole thing, Sage was not that big of a help in Eggman's side in hindsight when compared to Bowser's side (Kamek, King Boo, Junior and Bowser himself had ways of breaking out of cyberspace. Also her thousands of scenarios can be proven wrong as they mentioned in the post analysis)
Should also mention that outside of Bowser Jr none of the Koopalings made appearances in this battle. Also Bowsers Warships and Clowncars were also not really used.
Honestly this fight kinda reminds me of Saitama vs Popeye. Both of them were gag characters but Popeye had Toon Force which allowed him to just say "screw the rules of reality". While I do enjoy the Mario games, they definitely have some border-line, if not full-blown Toon Force shenanigans. Also before anyone says I'm coping or a Sonic fan, I actually agree with Death Battle's analysis on this fight, I'm just pointing out how ludicrous some of feats the Marioverse pulls off are.
@@topace1038 koopalings were part of the fight in the storyboard, Moro confirmed that they were cut due to budget as their scene would have cost too much for how short it was.
Nah... I'm an huge Sonic fan (Mario's player too). I really found the animation, the battle, the music etc... pretty nice, I loved it. But the analisis it's a bit unfair and out of place, probably in a video that only proposes the fight this wouldn't be a problem, but since they tries to explain on dettails WHY one character beats another one it's obvious that people will argument about it.
Another factor is that Sage is present, Eggman doesn't need to switch mechs when Sage has the computational prowess to pilot all of his mechs at once. And I know it was touched on already but seriously where were the Assault Model Death Egg Robots, those things were *made* for invasion. DB Didn't let Eggman bring everything to the table whilst bowser got everything he had.
They considered all the stuff show in the alternative scenarios they probably just didn't include it in the animation for lack of time or couldn't make it fit into the script
Time to debunk an entire video's scaling LMFAO. (before we get into this, if you try to respond with something like "holy shit yapathon," or "aint no way a bowser pfp is talking." please let it be known your obvious bias in this debate, and the fact that you are intentionally trying to imply that Sonic games are better even though that has literally almost never been the case in quality control.) 1. The reasons things like The Nega Wisp Armor, Spacial Displacement Trap, and Metal Virus didn't show up is because Bowser has a counter to all of them, they literally state this in the end of the video, these things can, and WILL go wrong against Bowser. 2. I agree with the Death Egg Robot statement, but they were calculating the average force of Eggman's tech, the Death Egg Robot in forces is a Super Badnik, something to be considered the peak of his army, a tank to him if you will. Your argument is that his machines are way stronger, no shit. They never said that it wasn't. 3. They literally bring up the Egg Salamander, and Egg-Wizard in his arsenal section of the video, they specifically say that its apart of his arsenal. The scaling still was in favor of Bowser, it didn't have to be included in the fight, the fight is literally made for the purpose of being flashy, the calculations between arsenals and trump cards, and feats. Happens before the Animation is made, because they need to decide a winner. These things, WERE accounted for. They simply lost in the war of attrition against The Koopa Kingdom. 4. The Egg-Dragoon's speed is entirely irrelevant to Bowser. The Egg-Dragoon being superior to the Egg-Wizard literally means nothing in the context of the Death Battle, they established (like ive stated.) That it would lose, along with the egg-salamander, and egg-wizard. During the calculations phase of the actual death battle. Let's go onto the actual scaling then? First of all; Tails never states that Sonic can actually go at the pace of space and time, he states the acceleration is what causes space and time to be restored, that is not an immeasurable sonic speed feat, though they do exist and I will list them. Pre-Unleashed infact, Sonic states, "Time may fly, but I'm even faster!" in Sonic & The Secret Rings, implying hes faster then time itself. Which is further confirmed in future games. Generations at-least confirms that his acceleration can fuck with time and space, not that hes faster then both, that is an immeasurable speed feat. let's get into why it doesn't fucking matter: Bowser was traversing all of Dream Depot and wiping out each dream one by one--which are universes--casually, as evidenced by how he's talking about his plan and such, before destroying Dream Depot itself. Misstar then says "at this rate, he'll destroy the dream worlds one by one." She goes on to say that Mario must protect everyone's dreams. This means Bowser was casually moving at a rate that would allow him to destroy an uncountable set of uncountably infinite universes. Not to mention; said Universes can be conceptually in a higher plane, It's stated in Dream Team by Dreambert that inside of dreams, he can "Sense a higher plane of consciousness.". Which confirms that the Dream Depot, which is contingent to all dreams, would be able to create Higher Levels of World, dreams and wishes have no form, and are immaterial, hence they cannot qualify for dimensional transcendence. Making it a feat of Conceptual Transcendence, and Bowser was casually destroying the entire conceptually transcending dream depot with his speed and strength alone. To continue, The Dream and Dark Stone can grant any wish, scaling off of the dream depot, and high levels of consciousness, this would mean they have meta wish granting hax, that Bowser possessed when he was Dreamy Bowser. so here's some proof of three things, his physical stats, the fact the egg-dragoon could not fucking surpass him or speedblitz him, and the fact the dream stone and star rod are busted as fuck. 5. The didn't use the hardboiled heavies because the animation was made off of what was ment to look flashy, they were again. accounted for, and considered weaker. 6. Again, if Metal Sonic has 'immeasurable speed' Bowser is conceptually transcending him in all sense of the word. What kind of correlation is them flashing another screenshot while explaining something different mean base scales. LOL 7. If you highball the phantom ruby, you COULD get it to 1-A.(Boundless scaling is actual fucking cap LMFAO.) The issue with that is; The DREAM Depot is 1-A. And Bowser is infinitely superior to that shit, in Mario Party 5. He has gotten way stronger, he canonically has accelerated developement. he is literally starchild. 8. Lowballing infinite is crazy, in a Sonic glaze video too, he'd scale to Modern Sonic during Forces, who again, COULD be scaled to 1-A. Infinitely superior to Erazor Djinn, who does have 1-A Scaling, aswell as Maginaryland scaling. Even WITH that, However. Bowser still fucking soloes, he has conceptual transcendence, and dimension transcendence because of Cutout from Paper Mario, When Mario activates his Cutout technique, he transcends the boundaries of space and time alongside dimensions, and travels to a realm outside of their universe where he can cut out pieces of the background via access to transdimensional scissors that allow him to uncover secrets via this cutting. This would also imply Mario transcends dimensionality through this technique, since if he’s transcending the very boundaries of space and time (alongside multiple dimensions), he must be transcending anything that exists within/is bound by space and time, and since dimensionality (the totality of dimensions) is comprised of spatial extents dimensionality itself would be within space and time, and thus within its boundaries, logically implying that Cutout transcends dimensionality [Beyond-Dimensional Physiology, Dimensional Travel, Spatial Manipulation, Background Manipulation]. The space that Mario performs Cutout on is implied to be apart of the cosmic ether of the universe. also scaling the universe to 1-A. as the realm’s ether is within the universe (certain parts of the Cutout Realm lie within the universe, which are interacted with from areas of the realm outside of the universe). Bowser effortlessly scales to these things, those scissors aren't even considered an actual threat to him. Let alone the strongest artifact hes surpassed. 9. Again, lowballing the sonicverse is crazy. The Time Eater COULD do those things, its just that Bowser is infinitely superior. 10. Infinite IS stronger then Solaris, and Time Eater. He's just NOT stronger then Bowser LMFAO. 11. The reason they didn't give it to him is because it isn't something he'd have on hand in an actual battle, he'd have to specifically charge it to fight Bowser for literal weeks and even then Bowser fucking trounces it and moves on to the next problem. If we're arguing that shit can just be given to certain characters, Bowser shouldn't have even been able to get scratched this fight, because with the Star Rod he wished to be unstoppable. Comparing Lightman, a form that requires charge, to Chance Time, which is something Kamek can deadass just do, along with all of his other busted abilities, (reality warping, mind control, paperization, and raw magic,) 12. Omnipresence, CAN be scaled to speed, if your everywhere all at once, you are everywhere, you can exist anywhere at any point, instantly. Which is why it could be scaled to speed. Again, even if he's Immeasurable speed. It's irrelevant, they even state this in the death battle. That speed wouldn't help Eggman LMFAO. 13. Bowser doesn't have inaccessible speed, he has IRRELEVANT speed. Which is a tier that is beyond immeasurable, he's beyond concepts, such as distance, aspatial, or atemporal. He's comparable to Mario, who can run across Superspace Bridge, superspace is a space of infinitely many dimensions postulated to contain actual space-time and all possible spaces. And Mario casually jogged through it, this just adds to the cosmology, since Superspace Bridge is a casual galaxy. Also, Bowser scales off M-Power. Aesthetic details indicate string theory such as lineland, not to mention equations are literally seen apart of dimensions in super paper mario. The Void WAS going to destroy mathematical dimensions. Scaling to 5D is chump scaling, and again lowballing the Sonicverse LMFAO. 14. "Bowser scales to 4D at best." This along with the fact you've admitted that you haven't actually tried to find shit related to his scaling just proves everyones point, you are bias against one side and have no clue about the other. Bowser is literally a dimensional transcending character. 15. "Spatial displacement is never implied to have such a weakness," your right, it's not implied too. The comic literally shows that it fucked up and didn't do what it was ment to do, which is what they're stating. Their is a difference between technology that transmutates and magic, Bowser could literally reverse the process, and It's obvious Eggman didn't have any forcesight to do so, that's literally the entire point of why Starline betrayed him. Meanwhile, Bowser. Could literally turn them back at any point. "Even beyond that, the metal virus isn't that easy to get rid of." Yes it is, to characters who can turn any other character into anything else. yes it is, not to mention if you actually did you research you'd know the Metal Virus could literally be danced away, (DDR Mario Mix has subatomic manipulation, Bowser literally has that power in his soul. If Bowser wanted to get rid of it, it's deadass as simple as dancing.)
16. "Am I gonna get unironic comments from Mario fans saying that this is supposed to be taken completely seriously?" Yes, yes you are. because if you did your research, you'd know that it WAS ment to be taken in context, the entire Minigame is dedicated to Bowser proving it, he makes monsters out of massive chemicals, not to mention; Bowser canonically leads a hyper specific army according to SMB3's manual, he has built shit like the Dark Matter Reactor, which casually erased things from existence, the Galaxy Reactor, which can recreate the entire universe several times over. (It's stated to decide the Fate of the Universe, twice, both ingame and in the manual, Luigi also says that if Bowser isn't stopped the universe falls into his claws.) He built a space station that can casually chill next to the sun, (not impressive, but Eggman has built worse LMFAO.) He canonically has a fucking doctorate, he created a bubble machine that could trap even Mario, who again, scales off all of this shit I JUST stated. (I don't care about your Mario VS Sonic debunking video, fyi. LMFAO.) 17. "The only thing that can counter the phantom ruby is the phantom ruby itself," yeah. In the fucking verse? The Star Rod is superior to the star spirits who guard and created the dream depot, which again, could be scaled to 1-A casually. The Star Rod is so strong it even beat Bowser, Bowser could literally one shot that thing, even with its highball 1-A Infinitely superior scaling, Mario's cosmology is just more specific. 18. The reason they didn't include lightman was because it would be impossible for the Doctor to have him, same reason they didn't include shit like Dark Paint Bowser (different from Fury bowser.) 19. The Chaos emeralds have infinite power, but so do fucking stars LMFAO, Stars have regularly been able to create shit on the level of Galaxies, baby stars (luma's) literally ARE galaxies, not only would stars be able to counter chaos emeralds, they have created Big Boo's, who in mario 64's manual are stated to be extradimensional threats that Mario casually sends packing, stars also created dimensions with time and space, demonstrated by tick tock clock being reflected by time, Stars can create entire universes, (Worlds= Universes in Mario, similarly to the Sonicverse.), Mario deadass says that Bobomb Battlefield is identical to his world. The Grand Star is almost infinitely superior to regular stars or the big star, it would effortlessly scale past the chaos emeralds, not to MENTION their in abundance. Like you've stated, "no matter how many finite things you have, you will never be able to counter an infinite thing." except those 'finite things' are also infinite in power and have layered transcendence LMFAO. 20. Eggman has literally proved he is willing to take things on a universal scale, the reason he doesn't is because they have to keep it grounded to Sonic's world LMFAO. The conquering thing doesn't make sense at all,
Even if Death Battle wanted to go the route of the modified Phantom Ruby taking time to charge to actually be utilised… they literally brought up the Time Stones, just have Eggman accelerate the time it takes to gather that energy, boom! Issue solved! Plus claiming that Bowser’s minions would resists memory manipulation from the Egg Field or Lightman due to resisting Fawful’s brainwashing is just really, really dumb. Not only do they bypass the innate resistances some of the cast have to the likes of Ifrit and Dark Gaia, but they ALSO were going to overcome the resistance a single Chaos Emerald gave against memory manipulation! Bowser, nor his army have anything to resist memory manipulation like that.
And they REALLY underrated Sage here. They said her simulations wouldn’t be reliable as she was unable to predict many of the things Sonic did during the events of Frontiers, but SEVERAL TIMES throughout the Japanese dialogue of the game, we are told Sonic is defying fate and causality in doing all of these things! No fucking shit Sage couldn’t predict that! This would NOT apply for Bowser or his army. And they also didn’t bring up Cyberspace all that much despite how big of an advantage it is. Not only does being trapped in there take a snapshot of all your memories and add it to realm, free for Sage’s simulations as she has full control over Cyberspace post Frontiers thanks to The End no longer interfering, but being trapped, and assuming you somehow get out, would leave you digitised, you’d start losing memories, your emotions would start being messed with, but most importantly, it straight up locks you out of using certain moves and abilities, prime example being Amy not being able to use her Pico Pico Hammer.
@ not the point I was making, both have type 1 acausality through all their wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey rubbish, both can time travel freely, Bowser naturally, while Eggman has several options for it, with Time Eater rendering it void. The point I was making, was that Eggman can literally accelerate the rate at which the Ruby charges, the Time Stones aren’t generic time travelling gems, they have control over time period.
@@mugenkage4965 based doctor who reference Pretty sure one of the alternative scenarios shows that they think castle Bowser would still be able to handle so even if he had it it wouldn't be of much use Which you know is debatable but it's not like they don't bring it up
@ much appreciated! Wonder Bowser is a VERY big win con for him, I will admit, but that’s only if he’s had time to charge the form. The main win con he gets is layered transmutation, which Eggman, nor any of his army have a resistance to, but fortunately for the Doc, it’s AOE to start out with is… kinda pitiful, it would only have reached universal levels of range had Bowser fully charged it without being interrupted, and with Eggman not needing to even be on the field at all to activate his win con of memory manipulation, it’s kind of a big deal (also to add on to this, this is under the assumption that it would even be Wonder Bowser going up against Lightman in the first place, which is giving a TON of leeway to Bowser, almost to a point where it seems he has pre fight knowledge of Eggman).
Quick question: Why isn't Neo Metal Metal Sonic's BASE form? And why not make an army of Neo Metals? If he can now control him better, then he'd be able to command an army of them right?
@@PowerBalancetheKitsune There's no real answer for this in canon, my theory is that Eggman sees Metal as a son, and building an army of your son would be weird.
I heavily disagree with the stuff mentioned here. I'll probably post 2 comments. 1) Yes, Screwattack bringed out several stuff they didn't use in the main animation for Eggman, but so they did for Bowser, likely due to budget and time. As for Bowser, they left out some of the most useful assets in his army (Koopalings, Petey Piranha and the likes), the Dream Stone, the Power Stars, Star Rod, not to mention all the abilities he gets from Paper Mario as they said that Is canon, all the mechs and weird reality hax he got from the Mario Party games (in Mario Party 5 he could literally warp an entire multiverse and create some), etc. 2) Egg Salamander Is not universal, that Is One huge misconception. The universe getting destroyed was caused by a space-time anomaly caused by the two parallel universes intersecting when they shouldn't, which was caused by the fact that the Sol Emeralds suddenly appeared in the Sonic universe, which mustn't occur as Sonic and Sol Universes are like the North and the South poles (or two sides of the coin) and they naturally repel each other (as explained by Eggmen). This contradiction caused an anomaly in space-time which would have eventually collapsed. There is also the argument that Chaos Emeralds reacted to the Sol Emeralds as said by Tails and Eggman, granted the Chaos Emeralds were in the special stages but the special stages are protrayed to be pocket realms within Sonic's space-time so it still works (this is just additional arguments though, the one about Sonic and Sol universes repelling each other is much better). The universal feat Is a chain reaction that only really scales to the Emeralds and not the mechs and most importantly it's a chain reaction feat that happens over time, not just some casual universal explosion. It doesn't scale to the mechs especially because this feat only happens through a very specific context that can only occur in Sonic or Sol 's universe specifically, so them empowering some mech Is a completely different scenario. This feat falls more into the category of specific/conditioned Environmental Destruction rather than raw power. 3) Scaling the Super Egg Robot to Super Sonic Is faulty scaling for reasons I'm about to explain below. Regardless, scaling mechs above things like Egg Salamander or Egg Wizard because of some hyperbolic statement is rather contradictory when you have Super Sonic struggling with relatively mundane feats and yet you don't take this into account when scaling stuff to it the second after. It looks like an attempt to scale Sonic to the highest possible level through ridiculous scaling methods, ignoring that those very methods can prove the Sonic cast to be much weaker. Regardless, it's not even about the method, because Sonic has a deep enough lore which, by itself, already conteadicts all this scaling. And estabilished lore and feats >>>> This was Just a premise, let's get into the actual arguments 4) Those statements about Eggman mechs are quite clearly hyperbolic and they are massively contradicted by estabilished lore. One of the key points in Sonic is that Eggman longs after the emeralds' infinite power, that only those can bring about all the power and feats he desires, so it wouldn't make sense IN ANY WAY that mechs not empowered by chaos emeralds are superior to the Egg Salamander, which is empowered by the Sol Emeralds who are = Chaos Emeralds, and Egg Wizard, which had the power of the stars which was scientifically measured by the Eggmen to be >>>>>Chaos Emeralds + Sol Emeralds. Why would someone take into account these kinds of descriptions anyway, through all over fiction these statements are some of the most common and they are mostly used just to hype things up and give a cool sounding definition rather than actually powerscale, especially since the authors of a game are most likely not aware nor invested into creating a coherent powerscaling. Which Is why you have these claims that, via completely ignoring context, could get them to scale above Egg Wizard, but then you have the writers claiming that Sonic doesn't even reach light speed, Super Sonic does not planet bust, etc (Ian and some others have made those claims). Hell, if we want to play the game of "the statements", there are not just statements but even SHOWINGS from the games' plots, aka statements/showings that are fundamental to the lore, that quite literally go against your powerscaling and these anti-feats happen in quite literally every sonic game: the Sonic crew getting destroyed by a fake town-sized star, Sonic crew was gonna die if Emerl would have destroyed the Earth via the energy claimed from the Final Egg Blaster in Sonic Battle, all living beings dying if the reactor wiped out the planet in an explosion in Sonic Lost World, Sonic not being able to break metal doors, Sonic can't bust out prison bars, Sonic cast getting decimated if the Ark had collided with Earth, Sonic being unable to survive a capsule exploding in Sonic Adventure 2, the cast needing to escape from Prison Island blowing up or else they would have died, Sonic crew dying if they got caught up in a city explosion (IDW), Sonic crew dying if they got cought by an avalanche, and I just took some stuff from the back of my mind but there are several of these showings/statements. Finally, Eggman has an habit of massively overestimating his own projects and mechs, saying how "this time he would win cause he's super strong", but always comically fails, sometimes in ways that make him look like he got weaker instead of stronger, so he's not that reliable. 5) No, Sonic Is not Immeasurable in Speed, or at least not everyone in Sonic is. First off, taking one feat when Sonic's consistent portrayl Is to be very fast but still limited is One example of faulty scaling. Sonic has a considerable amount of anti-feats in the Speed department (and I'm not talking about gameplay mechanics, I'm talking about plot-relevant stuff where Sonic often runs short on time, fails or struggles to escape various kind of stuff with limited speed, takes considerable time to go through considerable distances, etc). The concept of outliers exists and we should use It more often, and I'm someone who overall scales Sonic pretty high in Speed, but Immeasurable through one feat is kind of the antithesis of coherent powerscaling. Not to mention that, in Generations and even more in Shadow Generations, It Is thoroughly explained by the 2 Tails and by other various sources like game tips how the 2 Sonics are the only ones who aren't helpless in this situation and have the ability to restore space-time. Even after they were saved by Sonic, several speedy characters who by Generations are quite clearly much faster than Classic Sonic (like Blaze the Cat or Espio) are still useless in that very scenario, but a slower character like Classic Sonic isn't, so It seems that speed here Isn't the only key to said feat. It becomes clearer when we realize that Sonic and Classic Sonic, for some reason unexplained, are the only ones who managed to survive the Time Eater's erasure, which is likely directly linked to how they are the only ones capable of doing said feat. Similiarly, Shadow Is also capable of said feat, and Shadow also resisted Time Eater's space-time erasure, and Shadow is built to be exceptional, is chaos-amped and through explanations in Shadow Generations we have some direct analogy as to how Shadow is exceptional because he was built to be so and Sonic manages to be comparable through his own exceptional powers. This was just to explain how the feat can be applied to Sonic or Shadow only. But giving more context to the feat, we realize the feat was never Immeasurable to begin with: there Is a story panel in the Sonic Official JP released by Sega which confirms that Sonic fixes space-time by running at the speed of sound, the same Is confirmed in the Shadow Generations official site, and finally Shadow confirmed he could use Chaos Control to stop time indefinetely within White Space to allow Gerald and Maria to live. So, the feat is bullshit regardless 6) Ok so, there's a quite a bit with Infinite as well: 1) no, Null Space is not a universe and even if it were this feat is a Pocket Reality Manipulation which is hax --> it doesn't tell us anything about Infinite's physicals, 2) no, Metal Sonic at that point in time is not > Egg Salamander/Egg Wizard, for reasons explained in point 4 (Metal Sonic has a decent amount of anti-feats as well), and 3) that Phantom Ruby scaling to Classic Super Sonic Is not necessarily wrong but It needs further context (I'll leave the Super Sonic scaling below). Anyway, Null Space is not infinite. When Infinite trapped Sonic and Rookie in Null Space, he unleashes this black portal,and then Sonic and Rookie get sucked in. Once in Null Space, they run and at some point we quite clearly see Sonic and Rookie reach a red portal before going back to the city (that red portal was visible from a distance already), and once in the city we see that they went out of another Null Space's black portal thing but this time they are in another side of the city. This literally shows that Null Space is a tunnel with two endings aka not infinite. The game literally shows us this. Statements about It being endless are irrelevant when they are literally contradicted by canonical lore on how Sonic and Rookie escaped the place + if we have to take statements and hold them as truth, Null Space would still not be a universal feat cause Eggman explained it to be a place where nothing exists, no form of matter or life, he described it as a void. Creating an infinite space with nothing on It Is hax, It would only be power if there was an infinite amount of matter to create, but If there's nothing then the power output would be nothing.
7) Finally, we get to Super Sonic. Super Sonic, unlike Sonic, does not grow in power, he can merely learn to control his amp better. However, on a fundemental level, his power relies on several complications that come with the estabilished lore on Chaos Energy: the same lore which shows Super Sonic struggling (to the point of exhaustion) against Dark Gaia, despite the whole population of the planet Who was lending their positive thoughts to the Chaos Emeralds (thus making them much stronger) and despite getting help from the Gaia Colossus. But then, against Solaris, he appearently didn't struggle as much, despite the fact that the people cheering for them were fewer, and keep in mind Solaris happened before Dark Gaia. The Chaos Emeralds' power level Is extremely inconsistent, which makes sense considering they are chaotic in nature and have random and never coherent displays of power. Super Sonic Is full of anti-feats and newest iterations of Super Sonic struggle even to perform weaker feats (such as getting rid of the Metal Virus, where he needed Super Silver and he was so overpowered that he needed abundant medications for weeks after the incident). Even in Frontiers, Super Sonic was knocked out by The End's explosion, which would yeld more or less Country/Continent levels of power (forgot how big The End is, but If I'm not mistaken on its size this is a decent esteem), and he also struggled to contain The End's laser beam, which as shown in a flashback is planet-busting, so much so that Sage's Titan had to step in to fully neutralize it. This to say that scaling everyone who fights Super Sonic to his max power Is just highly faulty due to Super Sonic not having a set Power level for a basis, being extremely random, and the bosses usually varying themselves on power level (by feats and lore, Solaris >>>>>> The End, the latter Is at most Star level via statements). Heck, Sonic Advance Is very close to SA2 in timeline and Super Sonic in SA2 barely managed to Chaos Control the Ark, which Is about the size of a town, with the help of Super Shadow. The same Super Sonic was overpowered by a capsule exploding which turned him back to Base Form. Scaling Super Egg Robot to that Super Sonic gets It to be kind of a joke to even the lowest of Bowser's army, and It gets even worse for the Phantom Ruby, as a Classic Super Sonic was one-shot by a Base form. Regardless the point was that fighting Super Sonic gets you essentially nowhere in terms of scaling just due to how massively inconsistent Super Sonic Is. It gets even worse if you consider that some of the feats are arguably not scalable to the Super forms, like: 8) Solaris' multiversal destruction. It was estabilished in game that Solaris, upon appearing, merely warpedt the universe, it's said in the prima guide and in the game. However, due to It unleashing its power, the universe was warped and a space-time rift was created, which, eventually, would have consumed everything and reduced time to nothing. This was confirmed by Shadow and Eggman. The Super trio defeated him by getting into a fist fight, how would they scale to a Space-time rift created by another being? Also yes Solaris Is beyond time but it was specifically said to have been anchored down to their dimension, which allowed the Super trio to interact with it, so that's kind of a non-point. Not to mention that the very space-time rift allowed places from the future to co-exist with places of the past due to the timeline completely losing its shape: this Is what allowed Tails to retrieve the Emerald in Crisis City , and Omega as well. So Super Sonic, Shadow and Silver fighting Solaris "in the past, present and future" is also a non-feat cause all points in time were already condensed in that warped space. Overall, Eggman has no real way of scaling to Super Sonic, his mechs and/or Infinite aren't above the godly dieties of the series ', the Immeasurable speed feat Is not quite a straightforward feat and only scales to a few specific beings. I haven't even touched Bowser's hax, such as the ability to restart the fight through Earlier Times, which worked against Culex in a space-time rift which by definition has no time, which means Earlier Times would still work regardless of Time Eater's space-time erasure. Bowser's counters to Eggman's hax stuff Is also all magical and pretty much instant so not much explanation to do here. Bowser stomps
@@Unremarkable6969 I mean, I do know of some obscure statement from the Mario series + something said by the writes of the Mario lore itself, or even some weird feat, then I take It out of context or just massively exaggerate it, and easily scale a Toad massively above anything in Sonic. And then tell you that your knowledge on the Mario series Is lackin, and then just propose Bowser as the winner. Obviously, telling me I know nothing of Sonic scaling (and by extension me telling you you know nothing of Mario scaling) Is not a real argument but I can see this as a smart way to solve it since Mario vs Sonic debates usually become tiresome. It's better to just do that and call It a day I guess.
@@mkg1097 Did you actually read my reply or you just took one sentence and stripped the context? I said that if I use unproper scaling via very abstract statements and exaggerate those (which are often used by certain fans to scale Sonic cast as high as Solaris in their base forms) then I can scale Toad beyond Sonic. The point isn't that it's right, the point Is that scaling Sonic to Solaris in base Is absolute nonsense and if we had to reason through nonsense I could easily make a random Toad >>>>>> Sonic
They already addressed most of your arguments in the actual Death Battle and provided counter points to them. I think we need to accept that Bowser just slams
@@ashuraomega1000 How does Bowser even touch Metal Sonic or make it past Eggman's Time Manipulation abilties? Metal Sonic has Chaos Control and Eggman's Time Manipulation is comparable to Solaris. Does Solaris scale above a Multiversal entity that exists in multiple timelines at once? With said Timelines that are confirmed to be infinite in size and still constantly expand?
@@ashuraomega1000 Do you really think Bowser can negate Time Manipulation that expands on Multiversal Scale with Timelines that have no limit in size and continously expand? Because that is the scaling you have to give him in order for him to resist amped Chaos Control and Eggman's level of Time Manipulation. It's completely illogical.
To answer the why the alternate scenario weren’t used in the fight I’d like to bring up the length of the fight animation is 4 minutes and 34 seconds long. For Death Battle standards that’s long. With most episode only getting 3 to 3.30 for their fight animations. The previous episode Joker vs Giorno is a good example of this. If you want more examples of how impressive the length is let’s look at season 10. The only fight animations that go as long or surpass Bowegg is length is Goku vs Superman and Frieza vs Megatron and that episode is known it’s weird pacing and drawn out scenes. So with all that in mind, along with the fact that episode was fully hand drawn. I’m just happy we got the alternate scenarios at all especially since Moro didn’t even need to include them, adding them at the last minute because he thought they would be cool.
Oh no that stuff isn’t Eggman copyrighted nor has Eggman shown he owns any of that after Frontiers. If a game later does show that then fine, but right now there’s nothing.
12:15 Technically Eggman does have bots capable to drive/pilot just like him with no problem like the EggRobos and (My overslept goat) Mecha Sonic Mk.II, so technically that shouldn't be much of a problem honestly as for Bowser trump cards debunks: -Dreamstone: As for Dreamy Bowser, we just can’t say for certain because his scalings are inconsistent. Some people even claim he’s featless, and in canon, you can see it’s not that big of a power boost. By comparing it to Bowser’s normal giant form stats, he actually surpasses the Dreamy form in some aspects. The claim of dreams being a ton of universes isn’t consistent in Mario cosmology, especially since the wording of these claims keeps changing and it’s not backed by lore explaining how big or what shape these dreams even have. In reality, it wouldn’t be false to say these dreams are shapeless. Plus, in dreams, you can make anything happen with thought, and the Dream Stone uses everyone’s dreams as a conduit to grant wishes in the real world. Bowser just SLIGHTLY amping himself with the Dream Stone could even highlight a limitation in his intelligence, or (more realistically) it might just show that the Dream Stone doesn’t scale as high as people think. (there is also the point that the universe claim is a mistranslation from the original Japanese source since I think it states that instead of universes were dimensions or something like that) -Star Rod: while it’s claimed to grant any wish, Bowser out of all things he only wished to be invincible at the start of the game. This could mean one of two things: either the Star Rod is limited, or Bowser is just dumb as hell. ALSO the invincible wishes are temporary too, another thing people forgets and can also be outhaxed easely, nothing that the Chaos Emeralds aren't capable to do -Wonder Flower: When Bowser controls it, he fuses with his clown car and Prince Florian's castle, turning it into a flying fortress. Ppl say that Bowser does claim he’ll reshape the universe, but the Wonder Flower is only shown to mess with reality on a level-scale or "Mario" worlds at peak, the universal claim is also inconsistent with Bowser claiming to be able to only conquering a single kingdom at the start of the game or Jr. saying in the Sunbaked Desert battle that Bowser is “taking over worlds” with that power. When Jr. uses the Wonder Powers, he can change size, warp small areas of reality, and perform low-tier duplication which aren't big deal overall. Also, Bowser’s fusion has one glaring weakness: a big ass purple button, which people tend to forget about. Any hypothetical universal feat from the Wonder Flower can be debunked with these statements, especially since it’s confirmed that its effects take a long time to manifest. Add in the fact that Bowser is left vulnerable while waiting, and it just makes the scaling more questionable. these are the ones that aren't really that hard to debunk in someway also now that I'm at it I'm debunking DB statement of Bowser beating his clones, showing Dark Bowser and Bowser from Party Jumboore bossfight --Dark Star: It’s explicitly stated several times that it only copied SOME of Bowser's genetic data , not his stats or haxes by any means. Dark Bowser, both in lore and gameplay, has his own stats and strengths along with some of Bowser’s abilities, but not all of them, and even then, he doesn’t perform them like OG Bowser. Additionally, stat-wise, he’s technically weaker. (just compare how both are at their peaks Dark Bowser being lvl 35 and Og Bowser max lvl 99) this difference is supported several times in the game, they aren't equal at all cuz: 1)Dark Star disgusted by Bowser's genetic data he just takes a few and goes on, it's stated that he is so disgusted he couldn't even get the whole thing 2)Dark Star taking SOME of Bowser’s body and traits stated by Starlow, which is Way different than hax and abilities 3)Dark Star exiting Bowser's Body with half assed form because he was getting packed by Mario Bros and because he (again) was so disgusted about absorbing Bowser's data that he jsut couldn't copy or absorb the whole thing 4)Dark Star filling his Physical void by absorbing dark Fawful to complete his BODY which also confirms previous point of Dark Star 5)Dark Bowser’s statement of "I have copied body and I have copied abilities" debunked by all of this and in battle when he doesn't even show or use half of Bowser's repertory 6)Bowser not taking Dark Bowser seriously calling his dark magic plays as only good for making setups,Bowser said specifically "What's this wind? Is that your big dark power? A windstorm? Talk about wimpy..." "Great dark hurricane, seriously perfect for a final battle, you really sweat the details" Dark Bowser was pissed bout this cuz he clearly expected Bowser to be crushed by the dark power while Bowser is lowkey roasting his magic (makes kinda sense since also Bowser dabbles in that scene) and Bowser indeed packs Dark Bowser by his clear superior skills, power, defense and haxes because it's literally what happened in the story showing the clear inferiority of Dark Bowser 7)Dark Bowser had Fawful continously clutching regen cuz he can be realistically one tapped by Og Bowser and so he had to use a suicidal Power Boost that wasn't even able to One shot Og Bowser if hit and left Dark Bowser literally at 1hp 8)Dark Bowser showed at the end to not have the speeds and durability to tank Og Bowser's punches proving that Stat wise this is accurate considering both technically being at their peak forms Dark Bowser isn’t a perfect clone not even equal in power as Bowser and even less he doesn't have Og Bowser’s haxes. This isn't a gameplay mechanic but how the story went --Mario Party Jumboore Bowser: This one is so funny it could almost be considered an antifeat. The minigame they show of the hypothetical battle against this Bowser isn’t even a real fight, it’s just four people on hoverboards rushing him with the sheer momentum of the vehicles and knocking him on his ass. THO ANIMATION,EDITING AND VOICE ACTING IN THAT DEATH BATTLE WAS STRAIGHT CINEMA STILL
>>"Bowser just SLIGHTLY amping himself with the Dream Stone could even highlight a limitation in his intelligence, or (more realistically) it might just show that the Dream Stone doesn’t scale as high as people think. ">"Star Rod: while it’s claimed to grant any wish, Bowser out of all things he only wished to be invincible at the start of the game. This could mean one of two things: either the Star Rod is limited, or Bowser is just dumb as hell."
@@MindForgedManacle The statement isn’t backed up by anything, which is why it’s inconsistent. Also, he said in the final boss that he wanted Mario and Luigi gone literally. Then the Dreamstone got destroyed, and Bowser inhaled the fragments. In that same scene, Starlow confirms that Bowser actually ate the whole Dreamstone. The Dreamstone, still active, granted Bowser’s wish-but it was so limited that all it did was give Bowser a power boost. And that boost? It’s so slight you can literally check for yourself. Compare the stats between Dreamy Bowser and the “Bowser Fight 2” in Dream Team. Bowser’s giant form has better physical stats overall. If this hypothetical “busted wish” could come true, then it takes a long-ass time to happen because the Dreamstone got pieced up before it even could. So yeah, my point still stands. --- About the Star Rod No? Bowser wanted to beat Mario once and for all, and you’re telling me a strength boost (in the first fight, since it’s not actual invincibility-check Mario Wiki trivia) and an invincibility that can be outhaxed was the key to his problems? Pick your poison: either scaling issues or brain issues. It has a time limit-after Bowser beats Mario the first time, the strength boost disappears. But in the final boss battle, the Star Rod’s effects stay active until it gets nullified by the Star Beam. Even then, it clearly has a cooldown before Bowser can use it again. Star Beam is just casual, low-tier nullification hax. It’s specifically shown to remove only positive status effects placed on enemies, like boosts from Magikoopas (Electrified, Invisible, attack/defense boosts, etc.). This proves it’s not some insanely powerful nullifier, showing even more how the Star Rod doesn’t scale as high as some people think. Yeah, the Star Rod did adapt to the Star Beam (after spamming it on Bowser like a gazillion times), but then the Peach Beam comes in, amps the Star Beam slightly, and boom-the Star Rod gets outhaxed again. --- About the Wonder Flower/Powers The problem with the Wonder Flower/power scaling is the lack of execution. These hypothetical universal claims aren’t instant at all. If they were instant, we wouldn’t even be able to play the game. What Bowser actually does with these powers is just fly slowly over levels in a single world, cast some big-ass Piranha Plants, and slightly tweak surroundings. Basically, it’s just him locking down levels and making Mario need Wonder Seeds to progress. If Bowser really had god-tier reality manipulation powers, then they’re weak as hell. He doesn’t even use them on the Mario cast in the final boss fight. All he does is slightly manipulate his surroundings. Oh, and he’s got a big-ass button weakness. Honestly, Jr. arguably has better control over these powers. He shows more versatility-he can use them on up to 4 people, change their sizes, make low-tier clones, manipulate small surroundings, etc. My point with Dark Bowser was that he isn't equal to Bowser at all and this is backed up by stats differences if you check Bowser at his peak and Dark Bowser at his peak you can see that the only thing Darks Star was superior was in HP, in an hypothetical scenario where Bowser have to defeat his literal equal with same haxes and stats (things that the Mimic Ghosts from Eggman can do) he wouldn't really have a chance, at least not proven by canon
You really articulated a lot of good points. The main thing setting Bowser back with the few statements giving him a fighting chance is execution. We're told the RPG McGuffins are strong but in scale they're usually very specific in being utilized and or countered by a variant of the McGuffin specifically made to use against it. Sometimes not even by Mario and his friends being enhanced by anything to fight back outside of a hax ability giving trouble. It's like if the Chaos Emeralds were only said to be infinite a bunch of times and we only ever saw them facing threats threatening Green Hill. People wouldn't take them seriously and discard it as flowery wording and or a No-Limits Fallacy. Meanwhile with Mario, despite their magic and other powers never going beyond the scope of Galaxy outside of Paper Mario's one-time thing, they take it word of mouth. It always confused me Death Battle and most others take Mario's statements completely straight but with Sonic's grand showings they always doubt or downplay. Despite the scope of his feats and scaling being far more consistent compared to the other. I hope Unremarkable uses some of what you said to have an idea of properly comparing the two.
"The only thing that can counter the Phantom Ruby is the Phantom Ruby itself" 5 minutes earlier: "Sonic defeated Infinite in base." I haven't played Sonic Forces, so... how does that work?
To clarify!
When I asked why Eggman's trump cards weren't factored into the main scenario, I am not referring to the animation, done by Moro.
Animation, especially now, is expensive and time consuming, I completely understand why things like the Time Eater and the Metal Virus could not be included for the main fight animation.
What I am referring to is the over all conclusion they came to, because beings like Infinite and Neo Metal, and game enders like Spatial displacement and the Phantom Ruby, seemed to be swept under the rug during the final section.
The reason alternate scenarios weren't used in fights was due to budget
@@Unremarkable6969 Bowser's side also had way more things that could have been brought up but weren't included, pretty sure King Boo got glossed over for the most part aside from field control. Heck he could have possessed Metal and there wouldn't be any way for him to counter it, from my own research I couldn't find a single argument that he could resist possession by himself.
Also Infinite is not that big of a threat, it is just the writing of Forces that hyped him up so much that he couldn't possibly live up to the expectation, also the storyboard artist confirmed that his crushing by the Twhomp was a reference to another Bowser vs Eggman animation.
But are you mad that Eggman didn't win or are you fine with the result, just disappointed they didn't analyze his stuff the way you did in your video? A lot of debunk videos usually stamp from someone being salty because their character didn't win, but Bowser vs Eggman was so close it didn't feel to me like their research was wrong.
Infinite doesn't really have any resistance to transmutation unless you count the cube wispon, but that's not on the same level or scale as Bowsers reality warping and transmutation. Bowser could also steal the ruby. The only phantom ruby user with resistance to transmutation would be Lightman in the egg fields seeing as he controls all aspects of it and can make his thoughts into reality. Both have insta win sealing like King Boo's paintings that immobilize and seal, and cyberspace and spatial displacement traps. Each would be hard to pull off given the amount of allies in each side. If either is pulled off it's an insta deal. Bowser has no way to counter super Neo metal as the chaos emeralds remove adverse effects, and are able to attack conceptually. Doesn't have a reliable way of getting rid of the time eater either.
@@theguywhoasked2597 he just said that tho😭 he knows why it wasn’t included
Because, if Eggman brought them up, Bowser had something to counter it. So, just as Eggman's options were swept under, so would the solutions that Bowser could present.
Before anything is said
Bowser's "Showtime" went hard af
That was an epic clutch moment
@@no9ah103 bowsers showtime went wayyy harder than anything the entire eggman empire did the whole fight, ima be fr
@@toiletcombiner nah I think Neo Metal beats him out there
@@silverrath "I'll crush you."
the rules of death battle for the battles in itself is a full of big mistakes so them taking non-canon stuff automatically invalidates their battles EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. thats how every death battle is debunked by me
Only reason metal sonic died is because he got scoliosis from carrying the team on his back😭🙏🏾
ON GAIA
Meh Metal sonic was irrelevant
FR 😭
242nd like
My boy rage used to be believable
Metal died cause he decided to NEARLY KILL Bowser’s LITERAL CHILD which pissed him off immensely.
“Mario fans, ur games are mid”
I ain’t a Mario fan but you’re clearly salty as a pretzel 😭
Yeah calling Mario games mid as a Sonic fan is... a bold move. Remember who you were in the 2010s
I once threw my chair on a guy that nade fun of me for liking Sonic back in school...I was like 9 years old don't judge me
@@KiiBon Bro was so salty, that's how sonic fan nerds are!
@@Uesr2004DDont act like most fandoms ere not toxic when a character of the verse they like lose. Elso, yall should check his community post, he adressed this claim.
@@KiiBon and the 2000s
"For Mario fans, enjoy your win. Your games are still mid anyway”
THIS COMING FROM THE SONIC FAN?!?!?
I mean Mario games are mid ngl
Yeah thats kinda bullshit buddy boo
@@fennx4527Mario is mid? And Sonic isn't? 🤷♀️
I mean there the sonic adventure games, sonic heroes, the og games being fun, sonic x shadow generations
@@fennx4527cope fr
The fact that Eggman can’t build a dаmn theme park even after threatening the destruction of infinite timelines proofs that bureaucracy is outversal+
Wait a fucking minute, Egg Man's goal is to build a theme park 💀💀
Um yeah? Been a thing since the classic games
I mean that and world domination (colors and forces)
In Sonic Chaos, he wanted to use the Chaos Emeralds to build Nuclear weapons
so he could build a theme park
@@TheEternalFlame57 I mean sonic colors exist
He built it in Unleashed
It's hard to take a debunk serious when you only analyze one side. A Bowser fanboi could pull the same stunt and complain about them not giving Bowser a super star to become invincible.
Also, I'm fairly sure the animation in every Death Battle is just for show. They do those after they've analyzed and determined a winner.
Thank god someone said it. Looking through the comments and so far the only one who mentions the animation is for entertainment was you
I addressed this in the pinned comment of the video, but when I said that, I was referring to their overall conclusion and final thoughts. Not the beautiful fight animation done by Moro.
@@Unremarkable6969 they didn't even add the egg bosses into the main scenario
There are few i would like to talk about. First I think there's one little flaw that no one notices and its the phantom ruby power. I've thought alot about and my solution to its power is that basically makes anything thay originates from the virtual reality(which is were his clones and the stuff he creates originates) become real and is able to do the inverse thanks to willpower as shown when the avatar uses the replica to erase the fake sun. Anyway another it can do which not much people talk about is the ability to phase which was shown in the avatar vs infinite boss fight in the end cutscene and you mightsay its him digitalizing himself (meaning turning him self to a virtual entity instead of physical like some hologram) so that he doesn't take physical damage or him digitalizing the attack but the fact that infinite who was recreated to master the phantom ruby dispite it being a replica means that its not impossible for him to be able to phase reality bending attacks by digitalizing them. Also the chaos have been proven in multiple occasions that they are infinite power they have enough to create a whole dimension within them as seen in sonic r secret stage and have enough power to alter the universe due to there wish granting space time altering power. Also not alot people talk about the damage this infinite can like this guy is state to be stronger than all previous creations including the egg dragoon by a thousandfold with Japanese sub saying trillions and is proven to be faster than sonic which clones that could give sonic a difficultly to defeat which should massively stronger than the sonic who in half hp defeated erazor jin even after he absorbed 3 universes so these clones in a minimum can be universe level. Infinite is fraud not cuz he weak its cuz despite the power he has hes manages to get done dirty
@mrlotobvious Infinite, Eggman, and Bowser are honestly stupidly out of character in this entire fight. Bowser doesn’t have convenient power ups and getting beaten up is enough to put him down in most games.Infinite will only stop fighting if he is forced to stop. Eggman only had one fight similar to the death battle in Sonic Unleashed, and it was armies first, boss Mecha, then the emergency resort. But that ultimately was set up for the grand scheme of waking up a being of destruction.
Bowser never had a set up this elaborate.
Honestly, I don’t like these battles since they make them into murder rituals.
Im gonna make some counter arguments, as a fan of both
"You gave kamek chance time, I don't want to hear it" I'm not sure that's a prep-time issue, that kinda just happens in like 20 seconds. The real issue is if they count it as canon
"They gave him infinite, but where's starline" as of now? Dead. Before that? Wanting to be eggman's superior, which caused them to fight. Probably not the best "working together" terms
"There's no way Bowser is doing anything to the egg dragoon" well, if you noticed in the animation, while he did hit the gun, the main way to destroy it was actually just throwing the electric drill attack back at it to weaken, and THEN impale the cockpit. So he didn't destroy the machine, he just broke through a part of it
The metal virus is confusing because by all technicalities, shadow *did* resist it for a bit. there are moments where he's clearly spindashing into the horde, and he comes out fine. Plus, shadow was created at minimum 50 years before the metal virus, which isn't naturally occuring. And it mutates rather quickly.
"Knowing Mario fans -" listen, as a sonic fan, we are in NO position to talk
For the phantom Ruby I think it's more of a cancels out. The phantom Ruby alters reality, yes. So does the wonder flower. It's kinda pointless to have both because neither get an edge.
Oh boy, the super sonic thing. Okay, throughout frontiers, which is after the metal virus arc in IDW, sonic says "I'll need the chaos emeralds, and maybe a little luck." Sage calculates that supersonic can't defeat the end on his own. And in the final horizon dlc (if bowser gets Mario party, we get this), supersonic is shown to be OBJECTIVELY overpowered. The chaos emeralds, when gathered, should not be able to have infinite power, while also being overpowered.
As for the loyalty part...yeah they could have worded it better, essentially eggman isn't the best strategist in terms of war. Referring back to IDW, tails notes that when metal sonic, pretending to be eggman, sent out robots, they were much more coordinated. It's more like teamwork and strategy. They just phrased it bad.
"Your games are still mid anyway" don't get cocky, we still had the 2010's, the worst mainline mario got was the NSMB series, which isnt even close to sonic's worst
That's about all of my issues.
Honestly I was having immense issues when this started talking about infinite scaling feat which really oversells a lot of what Sonic characters have done in the past
There are impressive feats but jeez none of these guys are infinite in any regard
@Skynetbear didn't break that down, but I found the logic sound, the result unacceptable. Because that means that base sonic scales beyond Solaris, and maybe I'm in the wrong, but that's ridiculous
@@burbusburbus8782 My problem was that you could make the same infinite feats for Bowser who tanked the destruction of the universe which has a similar cosmological scale to Sonic’s and had the Pure Hearts which are capable of repairing the damage caused by the Chaos Heart capable of wiping out all existence
Now what we have is 2 characters who are just infinite in what they can do and the scaling gets muddy
@Skynetbear I always saw the fight as "toned down plot armor (sonic universe) vs toned down toon force (Mario universe)"
Super Sonic has infinite energy. It just doesn't USE infinite energy. Input vs output
Let's make this interesting...
I'll be trying to *defend* everything I feasibly can, this comment will be updated with everything once I'm finished.
"why weren't the alternate scenarios / some of Eggman's gear used in the main scenario"
Because they're not made of money, they couldn't feasibly include everything in the animation. You could also make this argument for Bowser. why didn't they include the Star Rod, The Dream Stone, or The Wonder Flower? It would be the same answer, they just didn't have the budget for it. Those alternate scenarios weren't even meant to be there, they were just something Morø did for fun (further proof why he's a goat). Rest assured that even *if* it wasn't in the animation or they didn't have enough time to mention it while keeping a cohesive and well-paced conclusion, it *was* likely factored in.
"They don't mention any of the stronger Eggman Mechs"
Uh... Yes they do...? they're pretty explicitly listed in Eggman's arsenal. They're also probably the reason Eggman was given, and I quote: "Equivalent strength via mechs"
"Eggman built a thing that transcends dimensionality and then has things later that are stated to be the strongest thing he's ever built"
Cool i guess but Bowser and his army have the scaling to match.
As for the Egg Dragoon being stronger than The Egg Salamander and having immeasurable speed. Fair I guess, Sonic power creep does go crazy. Though I could argue Bowser just has the stats to match.
"They don't use the hard-boiled heavies"
I've heard that they were cut and appeared fighting the koopalings in the storyboards, mainly because it would have just taken too much time for a segment so small. Also, just look at defense number 1.
As a bonus defense, Phantom King is one of the many people who betrayed Eggman, so it's unlikely he would have factored in (at *most* we would have gotten Heavy King)
"Metal Sonic should be beyond lightspeed"
True, Death Battle also probably agrees with you. He *was* likely scaled to the 73 quadrillion times lightspeed feat in Eggman's analysis and the immeasurable arguments given in the black boxes during the post analysis.
Also, as for the copying, it's mentioned Kamek can just shut it down in the post analysis (they also King Boo just flat out possessing technology IIRC, so that's also another counter as he could just possess Metal Sonic and stop him from doing shit).
"The Phantom Ruby's illusions are real"
...True! I won't defend this, I think it was dumb for them to focus on this argument. I think choosing to focus on the Wonder Flowers debatably greater scale as mentioned in the post analysis would have been *much* better.
"Infinite downplay"
Yeah, You could argue Infinite is stronger then where they put him (as long as you don't argue he's Solaris level I don't have a problem LOL). Bowser's army however can reach the same scale and have the hax to take him out (Transmutation, Wishing him out of existence, you get the idea).
*However,* you *can't* scale him to stuff like Mania's Phantom Ruby. Because Infinite only has a weaker prototype Phantom Ruby (to be fair, this is a detail a lot of people forget).
"Why didn't they give Eggman the Lightman form?"
Because of the shitton of prep it takes. Even then, the only real leg up it would give him is its memory manipulation. You can argue Bowser resists this due to his brain constantly creating backups of memories (It's his brain is also encrypted like a computer, but it's simultaneously still organic so Sage can't hack it. Even if it could be hacked, if she tried it would release Memory M & L as a defense mechanism.)
Also, Chance Time was just for the lulz. Bowser has several other ways to steal items.
"Solaris downplay"
...Yeah... Not much to say, Solaris scaling was downplayed based on what was said verbally.
"Where's Starline?"
One of the many people who betrayed him, and Eggman wouldn't be willing to work with him again. Which means he wasn't factored in.
"The best for Bowser is inaccessible."
Nope! He was able to keep up with Chaos Heart-amped individuals like Count Bleck and Super Dimentio, which threatened every world and dimension in all of existence by physically traveling in and destroying each one (the only exception was Dimension D due to Dimentio controlling the Void and specifically making it be safe). This would necessarily have to include the Cutout dimension, which is stated to “transcend the boundaries of space and time”, effectively making it beyond time. The Pure Hearts were also able to catch up to the Void and reverse it, meaning they’d need immeasurable speed to do so.
"5D scaling"
Bowser has this and 6-D scaling, for more info read "the true scope of Mario's cosmology" on reddit
"Spatial displacement trap"
Bowser resists it through some combination of reality warping, matter manipulation, and his own physical durability. Worst case scenario, his regeneration is just *that* good.
Can Eggman resist being turned into a brick or a painting though? That's what I thought.
"The metal virus"
Bowser has counters to it up the ass! Just to list... A *few*
1. Party Cleanse (get rid of all the party's negative status effects)
2. Minion Spirit (allows them to resist mine corruption because they're just *that* loyal lol)
3. Even if you want to argue it's corruption is *layered.* Bowser Jr could just use the medicine he used to cure Morton of Formula:X's brainwashing (Morton was immune to Fawful's mind corruption last game).
"The only thing that can counter The Phantom Ruby is The Phantom Ruby"
No Limits Fallacy. The Phantom Ruby has never really interacted with other reality warping powers before, so we can't say it would be immune to it. Even then, nothing is preventing it from just being stolen (or turned into a slipper by Kamek)
"The Lightman should have been used because Death Battle takes combatants at their best)"
The Lightman just isn't a form Eggman has easy access to compared to something like Dreamy Bowser or Wonder Bowser where he only needs one specific item to activate the form. It'd be like giving Dr Doom The Beyonders powers because that was technically his best. It's just *not* something he can access easily, even then it's not really a guaranteed win.
"The Chaos Emeralds grant infinite power, so the Grand Stars couldn't match them.)
Infinite Power is... Pretty vague and undefined, it'd be a bit disingenuous to say it's infinitely above something because of a singular statement. Even then the stars aren't even the best MacGuffin Bowser has.
"Loyalty doesn't matter"
Okay. The argument isn't *just* that Bowser's army is more loyal. That's used as supporting evidence that Bowser's army is just better at working together, Eggman's a terrible team player who gets betrayed constantly and whose army just isn't really built to work together for an all-out war scenario like this one.
"Eggman's ambitions aren't as high"
Bowser's army being bigger probably also helps with the much larger conquest LMAO. In all seriousness, the point about their conquests is more so just to cap it off, not an actual important argument.
Interesting. I'll bite.
@@Unremarkable6969Alrighty, I'm pretty sure I've responded to everything.
Damn that’s a concise list.
Took way too long to find a comment like this. Thank you for being one of the few actually trying to contribute to the conversation instead of the typical "Hurr salty fanboy hahaahh!!" comments (though the uploader's attitude certainly doesn't help prevent those types of comments)
Finally, someone reasonable
Regardless of the outcome, the fight animation was peak fiction
Indeed, Love that episode
Metal was the MVP, sad that he went out the way he did
But the egg salamander and wizard was piloted by Eggman and Eggman nega
Facts
@@Dawnfall_06yeah, that and the Egg Wizard were the only mechs Eggman shouldn't get. He is confirmed to have every other mech and robot he has used before though.
In an alternate timeline eggman wins and you make a video debunking it saying bowser should have won.
That's trippy to think about.
Anti-Unremarkable
@@Unremarkable6969Remarkable9696*
@@Unremarkable6969”liquid unremarkable”
Average Undertale AU be like.
earthtale
earthswap
earthshift
This is more "How come Eggman didn't get THIS weapon" than debunking
Well if they claim to put both of these characters at their peaks and have them fight, And one of them is a genius engineer and inventor, wouldn’t a debunk of this fight literally just come down to “why didn’t egg man have _?” He’s not a brawler by any means lol
Yea but it requires so much prep to get that super form that it doesn't even matter and even then they took it into account in a sperate senerio it wouldn't have changed the outcome whether he had it or not.
@@yaboical2744because resources are limited
Ikr 🤦🏻♂️
And you ignore the guy debunking their scaling for Infinite and the overall results and reasons
Next time watch the actual video
man, they turned metal sonic into the egg carrier in this fight fr
Honestly was expecting a video like this to happen but honestly, no matter what the outcome was, both sides did end up winning with this amazing peak fight, a Big W for both sides, gotta appreciate moro for all his hard work to satisfy both sides, i do hope he makes more appearances in death battle, such a talented man
@@abyss-aster8748 Moro did his best with what he had, but whoever did the storyboarding had a clear bias either for Mario or against Eggman
@@epiccarrot88 true
I guarantee there would have still been debunking videos no matter who won
virginite: IM STRONG, IM STRONG, IM STRONG!!!!!
Chad Twomp: UUUUHHH!!!!
@@thefakeparadox-2376
Virginite: IM NOT WEAK… IM NOT WEA-
*_URGHHH_* 💯💯🔥🔥🗣️🗣️
"I AM NOT WEAK! I AM NOT WEAAAKKK!!!"
the thwomp in the background:
King Boo: 😂🗿
Best meme ngl
Bob-Omb: we weu we weu wue we
Honestly, I feel like Death Battle said it best themself, Eggman feels more grounded in reality (As close to grounded in reality a balding man fighting a Mach speed hedgehog can be, anyways.) while Bowser feels more cartoonishly strong.
They did say that Mario's world is just too absurd compared to Sonics world too. I Definitely agree .
Sonic's world always ....well....attempts....to have an explanation for everything.
Mario's world is more of a "what you see is what you get" type of situation. Sure you do have explanations in some cases but then you have things like
Chance time
Some people say that Sonic is like Shonen and Mario is like a cartoon and like....yea...I agree
It would make sense, I know some Mario cast have toon force. Like in the games. I knew some M&L serie that we see Luigi use his hammer to size Mario body and other crazy stuff they do.
Either Super Mario Odyssey that he doesn't take fall damage when he jump off a cliff.
@@PK_Miracleok
@artstylereality2004 Then there's Wario who is the prime source of Toon force Characters in Mario.
THE GUY CAN'T DIE, JUST BECAUSE HE DOESN'T FEEL LIKE IT.
The fact that death battle made not only sonic fans, but dragon ball fans salty almost back to back is really funny.
can’t wait for Goku vs Sonic
@@liljuddzseems like theyl be pretty close unsure who would win, dont know if they will count forms like hyper or not
@@liljuddzMore like ‘remake of Shadow vs. Vegeta’ when!?
@@DeathBattleFan-wi4cc pretty sure they pissed off the jojo fans as well
@BBK113 JoJo fans (including myself) don't get nearly as upset or care as much for their character losing compared to dragon ball and sonic fans. They go apeshit if their character loses, but at least with among us vs. fall guys, I'm pretty sure fans of both series won't really care if either one loses.
While I still dont agree with Infinite being above Solaris and Time Eater, I can at least appreciate that you at least TRIED to explain how he could be stronger than the two via scaling, rather than just resort to just that dumb quote from the promotional material. It's nice seeing effort.
Also, for every "Didnt give Eggman This or That," there's definitely one for Bowser as well.
At least we got some animated Lightman and Time Eater, as well as the Metal Virus, so I can't complain
Fuck Forces though
FUCK Sonic Forces, all my homies HATE Sonic Forces
@@Unremarkable6969
Though without Forces, we wouldn't have gotten Infinite's Theme
He's such a cool concept but goddamn it he's the ONLY good appeal of Forces.
Thwomp'd
@@Unremarkable6969 I actually love the game, it just could have been better
@@Unremarkable6969Sonic Forces is worse than a bad game like Sonic 06 or Sonic Boom to me because it doesn’t even try anything. It has no soul.
why is everyone hating on forces, I loved that game, it was short but sweet. Also, all the infinite lore was pretty hype.
“For Mario fans, enjoy your win. Your games are still mid anyway”
I knew you were coping from the very start, but you didn’t have to make it obvious..
Mario games are boring to ME. They are polished, Galaxy is fun and cozy, and 64 broke boundaries and paved the way for the 3D platforming genre. But for me, they are just fluff. In one ear and out the other.
@@Unremarkable6969honestly it's hard to give people your opinion because they're always going to this shitty
Eh, oh well
@@Unremarkable6969I think you are completely right. In fact I can’t even play a Mario game without being completely bored through my mind. I mean heck Sonic 1 had MULTIPLE ROUTES YOU COULD GO THROUGH ON THE LEVELS and the only game I saw from Mario that did that was a DS game. NOT EVEN THE WII GAME DID THAT LIKE BRO WHAT THE HELL. And don’t get me started on how Mario characters in almost every game have little personality while Sonic games SHOW PEOPLE GETTING KILLED IN COMICS AND GAMES LIKE BRO WHAT IS EVERYONE ON?!?!
I mean the comics are a different story as unlike the games they aren’t restricted as much and I won’t deny the first Sonic’s games definitely outshined the Mario games but uh Sonic games weren’t doing so hot until ya know frontiers and maybe the shadow game but that’s not coming until way next year but after seeing its trailer it’s probably gonna be good but anyways Mario was always consistent in quality even if it was mid it was consistent with some absolute bangers coming every once in a while but sonic games just kept on falling on its face over and over again. There wasn’t a good games for literal years. Although I do like sonic 1 gameplay more but I can see why people like Mario so much as it’s relaxing its easy and it’s fun for them
7:01 This is what I like to call "Yamcha Syndrome". Where a character is mocked for being a pushover or weak in their franchise but is actually considered really strong when in a vacuum, just like Yamcha. The only reason why Infinite is viewed as so is because that's just how strong Sonic, Shadow and their friends really are in comparison.
Yeah it's kind funny to me. Infinite's such a loser in his own series...that he's kind of the reason everyone in Sonic is Universal+ in base, because they're all within 2 or 3 degrees of chain scaling to this guy.
Hell even Mr. Satan is insanely strong just not in dbz
Random Mute Mobian Citizen with a weapon: 🗿
@@serialdreamer8386 I mean he was literally working alongside Sonic. How they were able to double boost is beyond me, but still, he had help. A lot of it.
@@NeonBlueLight
Infinite defeated Sonic.
Which means he was stronger than Sonic.
Then Sonic defeated Infinite.
Which means Sonic got stronger.
Soon After, the newbie fought against Infinite which was at his peak(?)
The newbie defeated him making him have to flee.
Then the final battle which defeated him definitivelly was by the double boost.
That death battle was peak Cimena tbh i don't care who won i need Moro to be in death battle a bit more
Moro VS Galactus?
@@Unremarkable6969 i mean the animater moro_production not the uh dragon ball character
@@Unremarkable6969 I think he means the animator, who did this Death Battle.
@@HarbingerYT I am slow 😓
Moro vs Darth Nihlus (Dragon Ball VS Star Wars) Goes hard.
Nihlus destroys btw.
@@Unremarkable6969
he wants to build a theme park so badly its the whole fucking reason the fight began
"this territory is now the base for my upcoming eggmanland 2"
he almost kills sonic and mass produces robots plus pisses on the moon plus threatens timelines
SO HE CAN BUILD A THEME PARK
Fr like didn’t he make small planets in sonic colors
I have seen so many of these 'debunking' videos, and every time they're from a channel that revolves around Sonic and its fandom.
It's almost like there's a pattern..
Sooo like, are you gonna disprove what they’re saying? Thats not an argument or even a point to make. Of course people who care about something in a large fanbase are going to call out miscalculations or blatant lowballing when they’re also clearly versed in the franchise. Sounds like 1/10 ragebait I gotta say
That's not really the issue. The issue is that they look at one side and one alone. This entire video is about how Robotnik would win if he got more of at his disposal. Why not do the same with Bowser? If one side scales up then the other should as well tbh. And this is coming from someone who didn't really care who won or not.
I might not have gotten my point across in my original post so sorry about that, but my point still stands, there's an obvious bias. I mean come on, they bring up in the video that they don't like Mario multiple times. But, it doesn't really matter in the end since the Death Battle happened and they chose the winner, no point in arguing it.
@@PheasantRunFarm if it’s not something worth arguing about, is it also not something worth commenting about?
@@yaboical2744 It was a simple observation I made when I looked up the Death Battle to watch again and saw debunking videos underneath it, all with the same pattern.
People can still argue about it, I'm not going to stop them, but what I meant was that these videos aren't going to magically change the outcome of the Death Battle. They're a little redundant I guess is all.
@@PheasantRunFarm I agree with that, but even if it won’t change the outcome of this particular battle it doesn’t mean something like this won’t be done again, so it’s good that they get all the inconsistencies or misinterpretations out of the way,Iike how they had the metal sonic versus cell debate beforehand
I respect your debunk, but I still think Bowser wins this. Especially since you didnt really do a good job Debunking the Bowser stuff since you skipped over his section.
Not to mention, powerscaling is way too subjective to just say the Mario cast CANT have immersurable speed and that Bowser cant match the emeralds if he has the stars AND the dream stone.
Fair enough, a lot of Power Scaling is up to personal interpretation, because Nintendo isn't making things any easier 😒
Power scaling isn't subjective, it's objective, it's just that most people are too biased to admit their wrong, or most people don't do proper research
Something DB is known for... I still remember those god awful outcomes between Hulk vs Broly, Megatron vs Frieza, and Discord vs Bill cypher
@@jaybonewilks2747 it 100% is it depends on interpretation of statements, what you deem consistent and other factors
@@jaybonewilks2747You have to have a massive ego to claim that your views on a matchup is objective
Multiversal base mario and luigi is some of the dumbest power scaling wank I've seen and completely breaks the narrative of every game. This isn't even a kirby situation where at least the character is portrayed as doing amazing feats on screen to somewhat back up the scaling. Mario has 0 planet busting feats whatsoever. He has dozens of building level and below antifeats. He is supposed to be physically weaker than regual bowser. Why are people trying to use dreamy bowser to scale everyone to multiversal and beyond. Modern powerscaling is nonsense
The fight is summarized in "eggman doesn't hit any punches"
That’s because they used the animation to show how both were different leaders, which ties into the post analysis and overall conclusion. Bowser was rushing in on the front lines, while Eggman sent his troops ahead from far away. It’s in character for both of them.
@@ironicallyedgy7234 because eggman does not haves super powers him self and it was all robots
Moral of the story...
Metal Sonic carried the entire match.
He's the coldest fictional character of course he did
He died from the back pain
@@Neo_Flame-21no budget cuts.
Benefit of being the single strongest autonomous mech the good doctor has put together.
His one downfall was messing with the King of the Koopa’s child..and of course also his
***D A R R R K M A G I C.***
"Mario fans,ur games are mid" sonic getting one "new" good game dosent mean that we forgot the other shitty games that lasted more than a decade,while mario games were killing it.
Sonic hasn't had a bad game since Sonic Boom, and even that was made by a completely different studio called, "Big Red Button"
Sure, games like Forces and Superstars aren't great, but they're not broken.
@@Unremarkable6969 yeah okay i do like sonic games too but that dosent mean you can trashtalk mario games over a death battle video lol
I can actually, because it's my video.
@@Feres20000 if he wants to trash them he can lmao its his video
You were saying no bad games since sonic boom? Forces wants to speak with you
I mean, you have some fair points, but a lot of credibility is lost when you say "I don't know much about Mario so we'll skip Bowser's segment," and proceed to sweep a lot of Bowser's feats under the rug with by saying "there's no way he'd be able to match that." I'd say it's fine to disagree with the outcome, but you could get your point across more effectively if you're willing to analyze the opposing side more thoroughly. Still though, some valid points made in this vid
Ok just pointing something out here.
The Chaos Emeralds are NOT infinite, they are LIMITLESS. Implying that the limits of their energy capacity have yet to be truely found and measured. They can still be overtaxed and drained if met with a similar or greater power. Only the Master Emerald ITSELF is truely infinite, now if we were talking about the HYPER EMERALDS though…that is another story entirely, and this is coming from a die hard Sonic Fan.
no they have infinite power
@ then tell me, why can’t Sonic stay super forever? Why can they even be drained to a useless state if their power was infinite in total? (Source: Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Unleashed). Why do you think the word “Limitless” exists in the English dictionary if the Emeralds don’t follow the logic of having infinity energy as you so say?
@ sonic can stay in super for as long as he likes, in advance he was in it for weeks and sonic is the only character in the series with full control over them(besides knuckles) so silver, tails, metal sonic and shadow the emeralds go away on there own
@ you do understand how space works right? The farther you go from Earth the more noticeable the time difference is. A week on Mobius would be the time to fly to the final boss, fight it and fly back before the time limit runs out, which would only be a few minutes on Sonic's end.
@@kanewilson8624That’s not how time dilation works 😂
Ngl, I think this would happen if Eggman underestimated Bowser and just went in thinking this was gonna be easy.
@@Oyflim_The_Great even so would still be a tough call if he didn’t
@@craze6309 what call
@@craze6309 fals
that's what I thought to... to me Eggman feels like he would be like Batman or Deathstroke type research and prep time in his approach.
@DICEBOY22 Then again it would be against Death Battles rules but I do understand
I don’t think it can be stated enough that Eggman does not have a single counter for dark magic other than killing bowser before he could use it. They did do that, but he can revive many times. There is feasibly no way of stopping bowser from just cheesing the fight with transformation magic or the dream star other than just praying to God that he has the pride and honor not to do so. While the animation isn’t that accurate, the real result would still be a sweep for Bowser’s army.
I still can't forgive them for Ben 10 vs Green Lantern to this day, but the animation was top tier
ngl.
Fair and I agree. Green Lantern could win but the way he did win was pure 🐃💩
@@DJBurns-jq8mn I want aliens that could do something with hals light construct several ones they named but didn't even put in the video.
@@DromusTH we all did
Facts I cant let that go
Nah Broly vs Hulk was literal brainrot
That fight went so stupidly hard that I don’t even care about the victor 😭
The hype of the fight got me invested and then Eggman lost and I had a moment
Moro carried the episode on his shoulders
@@Unremarkable6969If It helps:
Morø Said in his twitter that he was rooting for Eggman.
@alexbaribeault
Fr tho.
His back must be in worse shape than Metal's with the godlike carry that was the animation.
@@Unremarkable6969a seventeen minute and thirteen second long moment, apparently
Anyway
Bowser protecting his army and his son was the coolest thing about this battle
Metal transforming into Neo was cool too. And the death egg appearance. And the part where Neo went super (he should have ended that fight).
i dont get how it didnt kill those enemies behind him tho, it literally went past bowser and could easily destroy the planet, especially bc the emeralds
@ so true
bowser caring for his army.. no, his FAMILY. 🥺
He wouldn't done that anyway because he uncontrollably
1:13 because animation is expensive. And also because the only reason this fight is an army fight at all, is because Moro essentially went, "Hold my Beer" if the fight was a traditional 1 on 1. They absolutely would have invluded stuff like the spatual displacement trap in the animation.
Regardless, fight animation was top tier
2:46 blatant hyperbole referring to a better universe aside
3:48 maybe use the x shadow generations one next time
3:58 cause it’s a misstranslation it was womanizer not feminist
4:41 allat to still remain the biggest fraud in the franchise
6:29 a sun not even the size of an island
6:33 another misstranslation null space was never stated to be infinite and time does exist in nullspace
7:33 already debunked nullspace but even if we took what you said literally this is an high uni feat at best which is below many sonic villains
8:06 excluding how shadow generations proved how modern sonic was carrying by the fact classic sonic is a sonic before heroes and in heroes sonic needed super to beat metal overlord while shadow in generations only needed his base form
8:22 excluding the fact it’s been stated countless times in generations the time eater only targeted 1 timeline
8:54 you seem to forget it took Solaris 3 super hedgehogs and both silver and shadow are stronger than Classic sonic
10:00 cause it wasn’t and he is simply overhyped for nothing
10:02 yes a canon ability kamek always had
10:40 Solaris is not above time
10:56 budget aside bowser did not get neither the koopalings, the bowser kids, boom boom etc etc
11:40 Here all the best feats I had more infinite speed feats but I preferred using the best ones
Mario time travelling with pure movement
Bowser warping space and time and travelling to the past and different timelines ( both yoshi island ds )
The rpg cast moving while culex eats space-time and exist across all of time at once ( mario rpg remake )
Mario surfing through time ( and reaching the real world ) ( mario Time Machine )
Mario moving in stopped time ( mario 64 )
Mario travelling to other dreams and universes ( mario party 5 )
The heroes crossing from the main dimension to the darkmess one and viceversa ( Mario + rabbids sparks of hope )
Bowser dodging bowser meteors which tagged starship Mario which can cross space-time and universal realms in the universe ( a Mario universe is build like a db macrocosm ) ( Mario galaxy 2 )
3D world cast keeping up with green stars users and the green stars can cross the universe and 6 atleast space-time continuums in seconds ( mario galaxy 2 and 3D world )
Mario moving in matter splatter galaxy which is a different region of space-time ( Mario galaxy 1 )
Mario moving in the dreams that are aspatial and atemporal ( dreams in Mario can exist across the past,present and future )
Mario and the gang moving in bowser warped station which transcends space and time ( mario party 8 ) and that’s the mainline stuff
Mario keeping up with the star spirits who can move in different dimensions ( paper Mario 64 )
Luigi moving in a region where both space and time got completely lost ( paper Mario the thousand year door )
Mario moving in the void which was going to erase all of existence, all timelines, all higher dimensions, pocket realms, space and time etc ( super paper Mario )
Mario moving in a erased world devoid of space and time ( super paper Mario )
Mario moving in cut out which transcends space,time and dimensions ( paper Mario color splash ) and bowser is one shotting the egg dragon on accident
12:00 hahahaha no even without paper Mario or the RPGs in general bowser is easily getting past 4D
13:02 plot inducement stupidity and shadow was built on an a cure to all the diseases gerald knew and we all know he could not cure Maria
13:36 oh please as if sonic fans aren’t infinitely worse just like infinite supposedly has reasonings for strongest statement ( he doesn’t ) bowser has own intelligence feats for an iq almost on par of Eggman
13:58 hitchen razor
14:20 and guess what they did not use wonder bowser also eggman super form isn’t even a real super form and the chaos emeralds got drained of all their power multiple times in canon
14:39 awesome the power stars are also stated to have incalculable power and they are weaker than the grand stars
15:10 you joke and all but bonds are actually a source of strength in the Marioverse
15:21 yeah the god tiers the low tiers are not touching bowser army
16:00 accidentally and cause of other sources
16:36 sonic fans don’t really get the opinion to say which games are mid and which aren’t
You successfully fried my brain, holy yap bro 🥱
@ holy copium and yes I was prepared
I gotta be honest, my basket case brain cannot keep up.
@@Unremarkable6969 yeah it’s a lot of info I know but what I can say I’ve been powerscaling since 2018
If you don't want anyone saying bad things about your debunk, do actual research on both sides?That's all my advice i have to say
I strive for and love comments critiquing my video. It holds me to a standard.
Just because something isn't in the animation doesn't mean they didn't factor it into the result do you seriously expect them to include the metal virus on top of everything else in the episode
Animation is expensive
Not even just that, they directly explain that Bowser had a direct counter to it (transmuting the army back using his wand).
Like why would they include something that would be instantly and perfectly countered? It's a waste
They included an alternative scenario that showed bowser countering it with his worn transmutation magic
Exactly. Animation is just a visual treat. It isn’t meant to represent the whole debate objectively.
@@MindForgedManacletransmutation magic is ineffective against metal virus, if it was eggman would've put a end to all of it since he also has transmutation technologies.
he literally explained in this video, you didnt watched it did you?
“Mario Games are mid” that’s a lot coming from a sonic fan most your games are trash bro
@@edgynarwhale4500 You cannot comprehend the amount of Sonic games there are.
Good Joke, Did you ever play Adventures, Unleashead , Generations, Frontiers, etc? of course you don't , you are a mario fan, so your opinion is invalid, the worst part is that you say "most of sonic games are trash" , i'm literally laughing from death, you have no idea who you are dealing with.
@@Benicio-f9xyou aren’t him bro no one is scared of you😂
Metal Sonic was actually locked in that entire fight. Eggman kinda just watched for the most part.
And it's honestly a bit frustrating because Eggman _could_ have helped. He just needed to come down in one of his robots stronger than the Final Egg Blaster, something with scaling comparable to Metal. Like, at least the Egg Salamander.
No no. Giant Eggman Robot from the movie.
Metal Sonic wasn't even defeated by Bowser, he was defeated by back pain
@giftpfknowledge-np9vg It’s weird they don’t use the strongest Death Egg Robot when Infinite is there.
@@justice8718 Oh yeah. That thing technically doesn't even have Super Sonic scaling; but it's stats to surpass Infinite and it's ability to just snap up an army to dwarf everything the Jackle did in Forces would've been a major boon to Eggman.
But I guess they thought we wouldn't want to see Eggman rely on his Phantom Rubies too much; since their only...some of his most powerful & versatile tools.
@@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg Not really. Super Sonic generally is something to exhaust and chip down. The death egg robot in its final phase had to be triple boosted to be defeated and those effects are very comparable to the strongest attacks we’ve seen from Super Sonic.
Watched one minute of the video before clicking off bruh. "Why didn't they use the alternate scenarios in the fight" because none of those things change the outcome u bum they literally said this 💀
@@RichieGonzo ☝️🤓
This you?
Wich means he didnt even cared abt the explanation because they said it and he was prob destroying his TV out of rage
@@Unremarkable6969 Prove me wrong bro
@@RichieGonzo he literally addressed the alternate outcomes in the video and you have the audacity to say "watched one minute before clicking off"
Finally, someone gets it. Why would they make the whole fight about scenarios that either end in a tie or where Eggman still loses?
If both sides had all their reality warping, it would just tie no matter what. So neither side got their reality warping.
Which means Bowser wins. It's not like they didn't have the 7 friggin Chaos Emeralds, they were not downplayed at all.
I find it funny that since a twomp took out infinite, that means it would be able to beat any sonic boss prior to him💀
funny enough that twomp was boosted by infinite's power, its a self takedown i think.
It's because of the higher gravity (which is calculated to be a lot stronger than earth's gravity) causing the thwomp to fall faster therefor having greater impact therefor defeating infinite. No, a thwomp alone cannot beat all sonic bosses.
Still funny that the strongest sonic villain took himself out due to sheer stupidity, like there was other stuff the phantom ruby could do💀
@@Kirb_The_MenaceFeels pretty accurate to how much of a fraud Infinite showed himself to be in Sonic Forces to me.
@@Kirb_The_Menace Funny and SUPER forced since Infinite isn't actually stupid in thee game. He'd more likely have fired lasers, or summoned copies of villains with the phantom ruby to fight. Hell, he was ony messing with gravity in the game to mess with the Avatar and the resistence from Eggman's orders.
They had him do the one thing that King Boo would be able to properly counter with it being out of character for him so that moment, while funny at first, really sours the result for me.
Oh dear... It appears that I have stepped into a war zone. Good thing I have the thousand-yard stare meme in my digital clipboard, like every time a Death Battle drops.
i soon as i saw the shadow pfp i knew what bro was about to do
Hard to take it seriously when Shadow the Hedgehog talks like a salty teen.
“Mario games are mid”
Mario Wonder
Mario 64
Super Mario world
Paper Mario
Paper Mario TTYD
Mario and Luigi:Bowser’s inside story
Mario and Luigi:Dream Team.
Super Mario Galaxy
Super Mario Odyssey
Tons of Mario Rom hacks
Yeah I’m not taking that seriously
@@pepebowser Hotel Mario, Mario is Missing, New Super Mario Bros Wii U, Mario and Luigi Brotherhood, I can cherry pick too.
What? Mario and Luigi brothership is good. It’s not the greatest game but it’s far from bad. And how is nsmbu bad? The game is bland but so is sonic forces.
@ChaunceyCain nsmbu is just nsmbw but again
@@Unremarkable6969 brothership?!? BROTHERSHIP?
ok, now you've gone too far
Aight but this entire death battle goes to bowser 100% in one outcome. Bowser takes the super Crown power-Up and becomes Bowsette. His "feminist" side will let Bowsette crush him. LUL
Bowsette tho 😏
In my opinion, I believe the biggest issue with the outcome is that Bowser won due to misleading comparisons. Here are some examples of what I mean.
Bowser held the power advantage for these three reasons, but each of them is only sort of true.
Assault Modle Death Egg Robot laser blast vs Bowser's castle punch: This comparison fails for a multitude of reasons, but the most obvious issue is that it doesn't compare the combatants at their best. Egg Salamander, Egg Wizard, Time Eater, etc, are leaps and bounds stronger than a random Death Egg Robot while Dreamy Bowser, Fury Bowser, and Pure Hearts Bowser are all far above his regular giant form. That aside, it's also important to consider the relative strength of the things that perform these feats. On Bowsers end, the castle punch is performed by Bowser himself in his giant form no less which means that this feat belongs to the strongest member of the koopa troop aside from other Bowser forms. Meanwhile, on Eggmans' side, the mass produced Death Egg Robot is effectively a super strong foot soldier and is nowhere near as powerful as the real heavy hitters in Eggmans army. To illustrate why this is misleading, imagine I calced Infinite creating a miniature star as 1 petaton of tnt and also calced King Bob-Oms explosions at 10 tons of tnt and used this to justify Eggman having a power advantage, In this case the comparison is technically true but it fails to acknowledge that Infinite is higher on the pecking order of Eggmans army than king Bob-Om is in Bowser's army.
Black hole comparison: Once again, an unconscious Bowser and a damaged Egg Mobile are far from the peaks of each character.
Anyways this is going to sound super dumb but just bear with me. Does surviving a bigger black hole make your durability more impressive because when you think about it, black holes destroy things by spaghetifying them. Also, I just googled it, and apparently, smaller black holes spaghetify things more severely, which means that surviving a small black hole is more impressive. Last, I'm not sure where death battle got the information that the planetoid used to measure Bowsers' black hole was 12000km when we see tiny planets exist in the Mario universe.
Yoshi star feat vs Final Egg Blaster: This is the best comparison, but it's weird that they implied Yoshi was weaker than Bowser when everyone and their mom has 1 v 1ed Bowser by this point and won. On a different note, it's odd they never brought up Emerel capturing the FEBs power or Infinite literally using the Death Egg as a power source for his Ruby Prototype, but it is what it is.
I am an expert in these two franchises, and i agree with what deathbattle said as the winner. Once they announced it, i said "Bowser is going to win, it just depends on how long Metal Sonic can hold out. Eggman has no win condition." The reason being, everyone one of Eggman's win conditions Bowser has answers to, or can just say "no" to so in the end its just a raw feat of who can overpower whom and if Bowser ever caught Eggman, Eggman was toast. Even if Bowser couldn't' use a single one of his biggest things twice, Eggman just couldn't win that war of attrition.
I'll go over all of the win conditions I saw of Eggman and how Bowser can counter them. Before I start, Bowser has a few mcguffins of his own. Star Rod, Dream Stone, Grand Stars, Pure Hearts, Wonder Flower. Eggman would need to counter all 5 of these and still have things left in the tank that could take out Bowser before he could win. And in the case of the Grand Stars, he might need to do it multiple times.
1. Lightform, Bowser can use the Wonder Flower, Star Rod, or Dream Stone to counter this and win handily as his things are just stronger.
2. Nightmare Eggman, Same deal, although the Star Rod and ESPECIALLY Dream Stone are very very strong here as both are way stronger at manipulating dreams than Eggman is. (To put this in perspective, could Ngihtmare Eggman beat Kirby? Because Kirby would use the same star rod against him.), Dream Stone would counter this in a thanos snap and not use any effort on Bowsers part.
3. Death Egg full power laser, Bowser has survived a supernova into a supermassive black hole. NOTHING eggman has done can rival that amount of power. Death Battle actually undersells how insane of a feat that is. Bowser could take a few punches from Popeye before he'd feel them to put it in perspective. (Granted Popeye beats Bowser no question.) This would greatly damage Bowser no question though, and they show that clear as day as it took him to Dry Bowser. Or he can just Star Rod and become immune to it, but that'd lead to the planet being cracked.
4. The Titans, If sage could summon these, they'd get wrecked by Fury bowser as Fury bowser is way stronger than when he fought Mechanized peach's castle and that thing summoned black holes. (Which are integral to the fight. Bowser would routinely pull himself out of said black hole to attack.) and he could easily overpower them.
5. Metal Virus, They explained it, Bowser can just reverse the effects via his own magic, Kamek's magic, Jr's magic, or pull out the Star Rod or Dream Stone to wish it away/wish for immunity. Or an even funnier method, he gives his minions Metal caps which would turn them into metal anyway and cancel it out.
6. Spacial Displacement Device, This one I thought might be a win condition for Eggman, until it was made clear it would just be too slow to rip Bowser apart before any of his minions saved him with a variety of methods. It was a lot more fragile than I thought it would be. Kamek, Jr, king boo, or even just Bowser resisting it with his own magic would be enough. This could also use up one of Bowsers win conditions as well, such as the Star Rod or Dream Stone or Wonder Flower to counter it but that isn't needed here.
7. Phantom Ruby Prototype and Phantom Ruby itself, including Infinite, This is the one people have contention with, but they were completely right with how they used it. These would wipe out Bowser's minions but against the koopa himself they had no real way of doing anything but inconvenience him. He could tough out any phatnom ruby shenanigans, use the Wonder Flower to just get rid of it, just overpower it, or have King Boo do what he did. Infinite isn't as strong as people make him out to be. He is a glass cannon, very good at an initial attack, but after that he folds quickly. He couldn't even do that gravity thing in the game, so they buffed him here by quite a lot. Now you might mention Null Space, but Bowser has ways of getting out of that too. Granted he'd have to use say, the Pure Hearts to get out which is a MAJOR trump card, but he can do it. And he could just tank the sun falling on his head so he doesn't care about that one.
8. Metal Sonic and his forms, including Super metal sonic. This is Eggman's best chance at beating Bowser out of everything he had. Metal Sonic himself could take out everyone in the koopa troop that wasn't Bowser himself no question, even without going super. The question is if Super Neo could stand up to the Dream Stone, Star Rod, or a Grand Star. This is where ti gets abstract, but considering only living creatures can draw the full power of the Chaos Emeralds and not machines, there was a good chance Bowser would just win. Granted any of Bowsers biological abilities Metal could copy, but Kamek like they showed can just turn that power off, hence why Metal didn't copy anything until after he knocked Kamek out.
9. Time Eater, well, bowser just beats this in Fury. He can travel through time as well with his own magic, so this doesn't mean anything. Dream Stone is overkill here.
10. Chaos Emeralds themselves, Bowser could swap them, steal a single one, or just overpower them. The issue here isn't that the Chaos Emeralds are weak, they're not. Its that Eggman can't harness their full power with his machines. And scaling to Solaris doesn't matter because of that, and also because of Bowser beating Super Dimentio who had the power to wipe out the multiverse and possibly recreate it, not just the timelines of a single universe which just outscales Solaris.
11. Eggman just cracking the planet. Bowser can breath in space and has the ability to move through space. (Yes there is the can't breath game over in Super Paper Mario, but he learned how to breath in space later on.) so this wouldn't mean too much. Granted it would be him, Jr. and Kamek unless an airship survived that his minions could be on, while Eggman would have himself, sage and metal, and thats just boring.
12. Neo Metal uses Chaos Control shenanigans. Unfortunitally, Bowser has counters to this through his own powers, Kamek, King Boo, or a simple mario powerup like the Stopwatch. And even if the time freeze stuck, there wasn't a whole lot Metal could do in chaos control to do enough damage as not even Shadow does damage during chaos control fully freezing time. (He can do damage when the enemy is slowed down in chaos control however, which leaves Bowser the ability to counteract it or defend himself from it.)
I can explain any other points or discuss any others if you got any. Eggman is strong, but the problem he runs into is that he is reliant on science and anime logic, Bowser relies on Magic and cartoon logic. Eggman would need a way to deal with Bowsers magic to use any of his more esoteric win conditions, which he would need because he didn't have the ability to overpower him. And he'd need to deal with ALL of bowser's win conditions at nearly all times while Bowser could systematically dismantle all of eggmans which Eggman can't re-use like Bowser can. And Eggman couldn't exhaust Bowser's mcguffins while having anything left that could deal with Bowser as Bowser can counter a lot of Eggman's stuff without needing to resort to anything beyond Fury while Eggman only really had Metal Sonic to rely on outside of his own mcguffins that could hurt Bowser.
I literally can't read all that, I have dyslexia so that's just word soup to me. But major props for effort.
@@Unremarkable6969 TDLR, A lot of Eggman's win conditions Bowser can counter without using his own large win conditions, while Eggman could only pressure Bowser with Metal Sonic. And the ones he needs to use his own items to counter, he has enough items to counter them all without using the same thing twice.
To quote a famous person
“The person who would win in a fight is the person the script writers want to win, these are fictional characters so stop asking these boneheaded questions.”
Nobody knows you nga
With you respect this misses the entire point considering this is speaking from a story perspective not a versus battle perspective of which established stats would be taken into account rather than ones being pulled out of the ass (at least in a good one anyway)
To quote the true victor of this battle: "Shut up, nerd!"
Damn...
Can't really argue with that
@@Unremarkable6969 I agree with your arguments but theirs no comeback to that.
@@franktamburello838real
So true!
"Shut up, nerd! Now thst your tech is gone... Are you ready for my breath? 😏
You know what I just noticed, every time they do a Mario vs Sonic episode, it always takes place in the Mario universe, which also gives them a home field advantage.
Mario VS Sonic (2011) and Luigi VS Tails: 🤷♀️
@@TwiMil2008 Those also took place in Mario's world.
Mario being mid while Sonic is good makes no sense, I'm sorry. 🤷♀️
Their both good, not mid, not amazingly awesome, just good.
1:43 Yeah, the reason why they didn't include all of them is because, as they stated, Eggman can't control every machine at once.
Sage or the egg robots can't help him with that?
@phamtans4381 If they could have, don't you think they would have?
@@Lucid_Tales1 yk how is the death battle, i'm only saying that because in Sonic 3 and knuckles the egg robots can manipulate eggman technology an sage obviusly can
Well he put some robot's to control his mechs in sonic 3 so he could some of them idk if it work well tho
16:34 Wow, that's the Hottest Take I've ever heard
Galaxy and Odyssey are Peak IMO
He would never understand
@@wongdang2💀💀💀💀
@@wongdang2 He legit said that galaxy is fun tho?
@Kurouso2099 he's talking about the shadow wannabe.
This whole video is exhausting to sit through.
They way hes talking the Mario games down just shows he is not someone to debate and is just salty over a video outcome.
Mario games are BORING man
@@Unremarkable6969 sonic boom, sonic 06, sonic forces. Are you stupid or dumb
@Unremarkable6969 Alright ur opinion but ey sonic aint better. And saying smthg like that in a "debunk" just shows off really bad.
@@Unremarkable6969just like your channel
@@jovia6462 ok then dont watch it (also can people not dislike a franchise????)
seeing a sonic fan call the mario games mid is definitely funny
Tbh, powerscaling sucks and everyone should already know this. Both fandoms want this character to win or that character to win. Just do it yourself if you're gonna burn someone else for doing what you want to do. They're obviously trying, and mind you, it depends on the author, writer, whatever you wanna call em. It depends on them to decide who wins.
Actually if you're referring to stan lee's statement he was talking about inverse not crossverse the only thing that sucks are people who take powerscaling seriously
You're even talking about the concept or idea just the community
So can I say “X” show is trash because the fandom is?
@Phantom-Shadow567 Corssverse follows the same principles. The fans want both characters with different stories to win. Batman vs. Superman, Superman without holding back wipes Batman. He's literally just a man. But, with prep time, he'll win because of his ingenuity and smarts. So, whether it was intentionally meant to be inverse doesn't mean the same principles can't be applied for crossverse. Powerscaling still sucks nonetheless.
@Phantom-Shadow567 Also, I never said the show is trash. All I said was that powerscaling sucks. It's not about the character being strong. For example, OPM is a gag anime about Saitama who can literally beat anything in one punch, that's his thing. Could he beat Goku? I don't care nor know because both characters are immensely strong. The only difference is that Saitama isn't shown to ever take any damage whatsoever, besides any jokes like a cat or him not catching a fly.
@Lucid_Tales1 The OPM thing has been debunked hundreds of times and is a no limits fallacy being a gag character pretty much means nothing
And again you never said powerscaling sucks it's the community
@@Lucid_Tales1 Crossverse would mean not having the influence of writers it's characters from two completely different verses
Batman vs Superman doesn't even play an important role here
I'll admit, I don't know much about Mario and I'm more of a Sonic fan so maybe I don't have the right to say much considering I never researched another verse, but... I don't really think calling another game "mid" is gonna help the PR side of the argument lol
I do agree that Bowser wins but damn they lowballed the hell out of Eggman. They gave Bowser the star rod, pure hearts, dream stone, power stars, grand star and chance time. They didn’t give Eggman the Nega Wisp Armor, Egg Emperor, Egg Salamander and Eggman roulette. They lowballed the chaos emeralds and Time Eater. They did say that Dreamy Bowser could erase Time Eater out of existence except both Princess Peach and Starlow were able to counter it so chaos energy could do so as well. I think Bowser was hyperbolizing when he said he could erase Mario and Luigi from existence. Also the phantom ruby has been stated by official sources to be comparable to the chaos emeralds which are outerversal. I do agree that Bowser wins but they made this fight way more of a stomp than it really is. I think this fight is way closer than most people think.
I agree Bowser wins too!
Eggman without tech is just an egg shape man lol.
15:10
You can debunk it by saying most of Eggmans army works like a hive mind under sage, who would have created millions of Battle plans for what ever Bowsers toops try, meaning they would have perfect coordination, the only exceptions being Metal sonic, infinite and non-robotic minions.
W
And you can debunk that argument by saying sage didn’t have any data against the koopa clan to form a efficient battle plan to begin with
That requires Sage to KNOW what all their abilities are. Sure, she could theorize, but not without concrete proof...which is kinda hard to do during a chaotic war.
@@colvamoon6962 @RedRance69 you both know that she can update her battle plans as the fight goes on? it's not like she's not gonna know what's happening she's an hyper advanced ai who formed a plan to take down the embodiment of death and destruction, she won't get overwhelmed and confused like a human, she'll be learning and adapting the battle plan as the battle goes on, Like how She updated the battle plan against the end, as the game went on she updated and adapted till she created a plan to beat the end, and it worked.
@@RedRance69 And it still doesn't change the fact the egg army is a hive mind, so there won't be any form of infighting or confusion, they will all be updating and processing this info at the same time, sending their data to Sage and the egg net to update the battle plan. that's how Ai work, the more data they get, the better they get at something.
Good points but i disagree with sonic having immeasurable speed. I think him fixing time in sonic generations is just him running through levels again to restore time i dont think hes running fast enough to restore time
A respectable opinion
Granted the Tails' are saying in both Generations and the remaster that Sonic' SPEED is what's restoring Space-Time, so there's that.
Yeah most likely but Super Sonic would definitely have immeasurable because of the Solaris fight. The data book states that the trio fight in the past, present, and future. This would require either each member of the trio to travel to different points in time to fight Solaris, or the trio can straight up attack through time. Both would require immeasurable speeds and Solaris is able to shoot beams throughout time. Time eater also fights super sonic which would scale to Solaris. As well as fighting him in an infinite time stream at the end of time outside of reality. We see parts of the Sonics world fly within the tube and Time Eater is able to effect the time within it. Both of these feats would give Super Neo and Time eater immeasurable speed
I think he is immeasurable due to the fact his prior enemies were legit lightspeed or MFTL so yeah it's more consistent that way. And I personally think sonic using his speed to restore life plays into the god of the wind vibe. And is well done. To say a plumber who somehow is able to destroy a evil dinosaur with destructive powers but can't work a pipe better than luigi.
I think he is immeasurable due to......
Me being a sonic glazer
1:13 Let's compare the teams used, shall we:
Bowser team:
-Himself
-Bowser Jr
-Kamek
-King Boo
-Filler troops
Eggman team:
-Death Egg Robot
-Death Egg
-Egg Dragoon
-Sage
-Metal Sonic
-Infinite
-Filler troops
So both teams were balanced in terms of amount of characters (and Eggman even had a slight edge in that aspect), giving more stuff to Eggman would be unfair.
Also neither Bowser nor Sonic have innaccissble/inmeasurable speed, specially not when Sonic himself says he was too slow to save Tails in Lost World.
Then give Bowser more 🗿
more like
Eggman:
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Kamek having chance time isn’t something wrong
Miyamoto itself said that all of Mario is canon (except Mario hotel) and kamek stick can just teleport things by himself or king boo (and even regular boo’s) can become intangible grab object and become intangible with the object itself so stealing things is a good and great wincon
Also since e Mario cosmology is so weird with potential infinite multiverses or hyper verses is scaling is actually close to sonic
So all your points are interesting. However, all I need to say to counter all of them is this. Dreamy Bowser could literally just wish all of Eggman's army, Eggman, Time Eater, Super Neo, Infinite, etc, away. The end.
Like, yeah, Super Neo is powerful as hell, but he could literally just get wished away. Just a little OP. As to why he didn't against Mario and Luigi? Plot armour.
You can argue if that's dumb or not, but it doesn't stop it from being true.
The battle is literally magic vs technology. Though I suppose the Chaos Emeralds and Phantom Ruby is kinda magical with what they can do. But again, they were already addressed which is why I agree with calling the Trump Cards category a tie.
Also, a little word of advice? Saying that Mario games are mid when that has nothing to do with the argument is really dumb.
Like, what, Sonic 06 is widely considered a horrible game, so does the Emerald scaling to Solaris no longer apply? Are the emeralds actually not a multiverse power anymore and the more plentiful Grand Stars now are far more powerful than them?
And Sonic Forces is again, considered mid or terrible by many. Does that mean all the stuff about the Phantom Ruby no longer apply and it only creates illusions so the Wonder Flower would easily overpower it?
Like I don't get why you had the need to say that. It doesn't bring anything to the argument and just makes you look salty. It's ok if you think Mario games are mid, but don't put that in a video when it has nothing to do with your argument.
infinite: this is power without peer. it is the ultimate strength.
thwomp: shut up nerd!
as a sonic fan I can confidently confirm when it comes to games, mario kinda takes the win but sonic unleashed and the adventure games will forever be my top tiers
It's like you didn't watch the explainer at the end. Eggman's trump cards weren't ignored. They either wouldn't be enough to progress the battle past a tie, or in the case of the Phantom Ruby, would be an Eggman loss that still required only giving Eggman weeks of prep-time and not Bowser.
It doesn't seem complicated and in the DB itself, they don't want to add big abilities that can be instantly undone or tied by the other side:
Wonder Flower > Phantom Ruby. WF is an actual universal reality warper and has a shorter charge time. PR->Light Man is a planetary-level perception controller and requires weeks of charging on a PR prototype gem. Controlling perception on a planetary scale is an inarguable loss to a universal reality warper.
The other Eggman trump cards are reality warpers, but Bowser has 3 of those (Wonder Flower, Star Rod and Dream Stone). So as long as both sides are treated equivalently (either getting only 1 such trump card each or getting them all), it's at best a tie. Like why would they add the Paradox Prism if the Pure Hearts are a perfect counter? What's the point of giving Bowser the Star Rod if Eggman could counter it as Nightmare Eggman? DBs that can only logically end as a tie should not be common.
Phantom Ruby is just a straight loss though. But without one side having an obvious deficiency or limitation, a battle between universal reality warpers has no obvious winner. Which negates the point of having a Death Battle between them to begin with.
I mean, if Bowser had lost this despite the same abilities being used, I wouldn't complain that he wasn't given the Wonder Flower. Because a universal reality warper will obviously win against a non-reality warper. But Bowser wasn't given reality warping here either, so it just comes across as you complaining that Eggman lost.
Reality warping > illusions,
Problem: The wonder flower vs the phantom ruby debate are only about range. The two of then work warping reality and the phantom ruby created and infinite sized world in forces. Saying "planet level" as if it couldn't do more than that is plain wrong. Besides that Eggman's weapons aside from hax are also stronger when you include scaling. The robots from rush hit harder than any of Bowser's objects, the dreamy stone failed Bowser when he took enough damage and he is also outmatched in speed so Eggman will pull up his wincons faster than him
@@hyperfairy7779They are not only illusions???? Like, you take death battle to face value?
If he gets beat by mario he doesnt beat metal sonic
The fact that this video and a lot of the comments are just sonic fanboys crying there villian didn't win
everything eggman had bowser could counter bowser also had so much power striped from him as well
during the fight yet they were forgotten u don't hear me crying about it i was fine with the outcome either way because there both cool
is it that hard to except someone else beating your character
I only made it 4 minutes into your video, and Im so tired of the whining, Im leaving. However, here's some food for thought.
They probably didnt include the alternate scenarios because the runtime on this video is pretty big for DB. And the alternate scenario stuff would not have changed the outcome at all. They explained why when they showed them. Flashing a few seconds of alternate scenario and giving an explanation is better than getting nothing. And there's a ton of stuff they didnt even touch on for Bowser. Its kinda weak they scaled Bowser from Yoshi when Bowser has better power feats in the game series than that stupid Raphael the Raven bullshit. Bowser is basically an invulnerable eldritch horror made into a cartoon.
And your complaint about them using the wrong Death Egg Robot also doesnt change much. If the actual Death Egg Robot is more than one million times more powerful than the mass produced model power feat they mentioned, it still scales to less than 1% of the Bowser Castle punch feat.
Also, don't forget to mention how wrong Death Battle got it for Eggman because Eggman didn't have someone on his own team betray him at a pivotal moment in the fight, like what usually happens in every Sonic game I've played.
Also, just had this thought, so I thought I'd leave this here. Think about how ridiculous it is to one-shot someone who is your equal in every way. On top of that, Bowser's best durability feat was falling into a black hole, and surviving without issue, right. Meaning he can survive spaghettification and contact with the singularity, he can teleport out, and then time travel back to his time. Survivng a supernova is dumb too, but not as impressive as the math involved with surviving infinite gravity. And then he was able to one-shot himself, so his power level is far far beyond black hole durability in his base form. That is so stupidly OP.... I'm not surprised that the Death Battle guys didn't point this out because of how absurd this is.
I do sometimes feel Death Battle focuses too much on an entertaining fight and maybe their favorites that they omit tide turning details. But this isn't some Newgrounds Mario vs Sonic fight, this is how Game Theory intended to be, if not was, for fights between characters of similar themes. Still, at least this one wasn't some one sided bird flipping message.
Use Shadow as Avatar, we already know which way he will be favored.🙄🙄
One of my main gripes is that Metal Sonic is actually rather underpowered. Yes yes, we’ve seen the “he died because he broke his back carrying the team” joke a million times at this point, but he could have carried a lot more.
Metal scales almost 1:1 with Archie Sonic in their basic forms. Neo Metal Sonic then beats Sonic, Super Sonic then beats Neo Metal, and Super Neo Metal scales up to Super Sonic for a large majority of stats.
Super Neo Metal Sonic, the highest form seen in the comics and used in the battle, is way stronger than seen in this fight. Super Sonic can reach reality and even multiverse levels that can alter reality and reach speeds “beyond space and time”. Super Neo Metal Sonic can’t manipulate _reality_ the same way as Super Sonic, but he reaches the same “beyond space and time” speed and he can certainly destroy timelines with sheer energy attacks alone. That alone makes me wonder how his energy attack didn’t hold up again Bowser, who is a Galactic to Multigactic threat at most.
What is theorized to be holding Super Neo Metal from tapping into Super Sonic’s chaos control. Chaos control is the ability to manipulate and control chaos energy, chaos energy representing the nature of the multiverse itself. It is often remembered as what lets Shadow teleport around. Super Sonic gets so much control over this that he threatened the entire multiverse in terms of sheer power and reality manipulating abilities. And what prevents Super Neo Metal from doing this is the fact he is a machine driven by cold logic, rather than the emotions and instincts necessary to let Chaos energy flow through you. And Metal Sonic, particularly his Super Neo form, is all about learning and evolving, and theory I’ve seen is that it won’t be long before his form allows him to evolve true sapience for emotions and instincts. Of course, this speculation and theory crafting has no bearing on the Death Battle.
Archie sonic and Archie feats and scaling wasn't used, only the IDW comics and the games, bowser also didn't get mario Kun
But I agree super neo metal sonic probably should of lasted longer, ((though that was a pretty epic dad bowser moment))
One of metal sonic's most consistent feats is it being on par with sonic's both game and lore wise, with an actual confirmation that sonic in sonic CD was fast enough to be forward and backwards in time and considering they also took feats from the archie comics means it's even faster so I kinda get how metal hardcarried this fight
Also yall forgot how eggman managed to tame a monster who could just manipulate the entire flow of time and space in generations?
Fodder compared to what Bowser did at base
Metal Sonic is now nothing more than a jobber. Jobbed to Amy, jobbed to the Chaotix, jobbed to Shadow. He’s not equal with Sonic and hasn’t been since Heroes.
They didnt used archie, they used idw
@@someguy9970Metal being weak now doesn’t matter. If metal was overwhelming strong a one point, like say how he is in Sonic Heroes, then they will use that version. They will only use his strongest version.
@@SaiyanPride123Uhhhh, actual feats to prove your statement?
This battle was accurate. Let's not pretend like Bowser was supposed to lose
Your name is BOWSERGLAZER
Im gonna believe the people who did their research instead of someone whose whining over their favorite character losing 😂
@@starflett618 😐
Hes just some random who's butthurt about his favorite character losing 😂
Im also gonna be listening to the ones who did their research
@@l4d2og "Just some random"
😐
"For Mario fans, enjoy your win. Your games are still mid anyway."
...Sonic 06
Sonic R
Sonic Lost Worlds
Sonic Boom
Sonic Forces
Sonic Free Riders
Sonic Spinball
Sonic Shuffle
Sonic 4
Sonic Boom: Fire and Ice
Sonic Generation (3DS)
Sonic CD (sorry)
Sonic Chaos
...
Yeah...don't act like Sonic games are perfect.
Yes, Sonic 06 is bad. Legendarily so.
Sonic R is mid. Fun, if you're playing just to mess around with it.
Sonic Lost World is polished, but yeah. Not a great game.
Sonic Boom is 🤮
Sonic Forces was disappointing, but it's not broken. Just boring and stale.
Sonic Free Riders is 🤮
Sonic Spinball is good, if you adjust the speed of Sonic in the settings.
Sonic Shuffle is so incredibly mid
Sonic 4 is 🤮
Sonic Boom: Fire and Ice is a game for sure.
Sonic Generations (3DS) is okay, but disappointing.
Sonic CD is PEAK MASTERPIECE, METAL SONIC BABYYYYY (It's okay idk)
Sonic Chaos is only funny because in the manual, it says Eggman wants the Chaos Emeralds to build Nuclear weapons.
Woah guys let’s say some games for Mario and Sonic are good and bad
Mario is missing 😮💨
@@Pichupichu126 I will not accept sonic cd slander
@@Unremarkable6969 Mario Hotel 💀
Its funny that everyone I've seen argue that is outcome is accurate resorts to its just Sonic fans or coping. When the only thing they have to rely on is outrageous third party scaling and no viable feats. If you looked Miyamoto in the face and told him Mario can beat Vegeta and Bardock in a fight would you not expect him to laugh in your face?
They have Mario constantly lose to sonic in smash bros trailers.
not surprised that a content creator with a shadow the hedgehog pfp is arguing a losing battle on why eggman shouldve won, they explained it, and showed examples of what couldve happened and then some, the fights over eggman lost and you are clearly salty
You act like Death Battle is gospel. Their scaling is consistently garbage.
If Eggman unsubjectively wins, and if someone is passionate enough to willingly prove that so, then that just makes YOU the bias hater.
@thestickmansavioryt1941 I'm not saying I'm a hater i like both franchises, nor am I say that it's gospel I'm just saying what's done is done you need to get over it because it's clear they did their research on everything and you are just a hater, who's clearly just upset to see that a sonic charecter lost
@@Megalodonwolfricmetal sonic should have killed Bowser in seconds
To be honest the alternative scenarios did show us what would happen if Eggman brought out some other tools, plus let's not down play Mario scaling since they don't give a fuck about it whiich leads to the most absurd feats you can imagine.
But if I can say something about the whole thing, Sage was not that big of a help in Eggman's side in hindsight when compared to Bowser's side (Kamek, King Boo, Junior and Bowser himself had ways of breaking out of cyberspace. Also her thousands of scenarios can be proven wrong as they mentioned in the post analysis)
She could've used a robot to his side but they did not do that
@@Exeternal_Beyonder_Of_Doomsdaywhat’s stopping bowser from just turning said robot army into stone
Should also mention that outside of Bowser Jr none of the Koopalings made appearances in this battle. Also Bowsers Warships and Clowncars were also not really used.
Honestly this fight kinda reminds me of Saitama vs Popeye. Both of them were gag characters but Popeye had Toon Force which allowed him to just say "screw the rules of reality". While I do enjoy the Mario games, they definitely have some border-line, if not full-blown Toon Force shenanigans. Also before anyone says I'm coping or a Sonic fan, I actually agree with Death Battle's analysis on this fight, I'm just pointing out how ludicrous some of feats the Marioverse pulls off are.
@@topace1038 koopalings were part of the fight in the storyboard, Moro confirmed that they were cut due to budget as their scene would have cost too much for how short it was.
Sonic fans when they watch the most PEAK fight ever, but a sonic character dies/loses (it’s the worst thing they ever saw now) 😔
The fight animation was peak, I will give them that
Nah... I'm an huge Sonic fan (Mario's player too). I really found the animation, the battle, the music etc... pretty nice, I loved it. But the analisis it's a bit unfair and out of place, probably in a video that only proposes the fight this wouldn't be a problem, but since they tries to explain on dettails WHY one character beats another one it's obvious that people will argument about it.
And the problem is they don't accept these outcomes!
Another factor is that Sage is present, Eggman doesn't need to switch mechs when Sage has the computational prowess to pilot all of his mechs at once.
And I know it was touched on already but seriously where were the Assault Model Death Egg Robots, those things were *made* for invasion.
DB Didn't let Eggman bring everything to the table whilst bowser got everything he had.
For the last time they did, they brought everything into account, just not in the animated fight itself. They don't have an infinite budget.
Bowser didn't even get everything either is the wild part.
They considered all the stuff show in the alternative scenarios they probably just didn't include it in the animation for lack of time or couldn't make it fit into the script
16:58 That is certainly true and I also have to agree.
Time to debunk an entire video's scaling LMFAO. (before we get into this, if you try to respond with something like "holy shit yapathon," or "aint no way a bowser pfp is talking." please let it be known your obvious bias in this debate, and the fact that you are intentionally trying to imply that Sonic games are better even though that has literally almost never been the case in quality control.)
1. The reasons things like The Nega Wisp Armor, Spacial Displacement Trap, and Metal Virus didn't show up is because Bowser has a counter to all of them, they literally state this in the end of the video, these things can, and WILL go wrong against Bowser.
2. I agree with the Death Egg Robot statement, but they were calculating the average force of Eggman's tech, the Death Egg Robot in forces is a Super Badnik, something to be considered the peak of his army, a tank to him if you will. Your argument is that his machines are way stronger, no shit. They never said that it wasn't.
3. They literally bring up the Egg Salamander, and Egg-Wizard in his arsenal section of the video, they specifically say that its apart of his arsenal. The scaling still was in favor of Bowser, it didn't have to be included in the fight, the fight is literally made for the purpose of being flashy, the calculations between arsenals and trump cards, and feats. Happens before the Animation is made, because they need to decide a winner. These things, WERE accounted for. They simply lost in the war of attrition against The Koopa Kingdom.
4. The Egg-Dragoon's speed is entirely irrelevant to Bowser. The Egg-Dragoon being superior to the Egg-Wizard literally means nothing in the context of the Death Battle, they established (like ive stated.) That it would lose, along with the egg-salamander, and egg-wizard. During the calculations phase of the actual death battle. Let's go onto the actual scaling then?
First of all; Tails never states that Sonic can actually go at the pace of space and time, he states the acceleration is what causes space and time to be restored, that is not an immeasurable sonic speed feat, though they do exist and I will list them. Pre-Unleashed infact,
Sonic states, "Time may fly, but I'm even faster!" in Sonic & The Secret Rings, implying hes faster then time itself. Which is further confirmed in future games. Generations at-least confirms that his acceleration can fuck with time and space, not that hes faster then both, that is an immeasurable speed feat.
let's get into why it doesn't fucking matter: Bowser was traversing all of Dream Depot and wiping out each dream one by one--which are universes--casually, as evidenced by how he's talking about his plan and such, before destroying Dream Depot itself. Misstar then says "at this rate, he'll destroy the dream worlds one by one." She goes on to say that Mario must protect everyone's dreams. This means Bowser was casually moving at a rate that would allow him to destroy an uncountable set of uncountably infinite universes. Not to mention; said Universes can be conceptually in a higher plane, It's stated in Dream Team by Dreambert that inside of dreams, he can "Sense a higher plane of consciousness.". Which confirms that the Dream Depot, which is contingent to all dreams, would be able to create Higher Levels of World, dreams and wishes have no form, and are immaterial, hence they cannot qualify for dimensional transcendence. Making it a feat of Conceptual Transcendence, and Bowser was casually destroying the entire conceptually transcending dream depot with his speed and strength alone. To continue, The Dream and Dark Stone can grant any wish, scaling off of the dream depot, and high levels of consciousness, this would mean they have meta wish granting hax, that Bowser possessed when he was Dreamy Bowser. so here's some proof of three things, his physical stats, the fact the egg-dragoon could not fucking surpass him or speedblitz him, and the fact the dream stone and star rod are busted as fuck.
5. The didn't use the hardboiled heavies because the animation was made off of what was ment to look flashy, they were again. accounted for, and considered weaker.
6. Again, if Metal Sonic has 'immeasurable speed' Bowser is conceptually transcending him in all sense of the word. What kind of correlation is them flashing another screenshot while explaining something different mean base scales. LOL
7. If you highball the phantom ruby, you COULD get it to 1-A.(Boundless scaling is actual fucking cap LMFAO.) The issue with that is; The DREAM Depot is 1-A. And Bowser is infinitely superior to that shit, in Mario Party 5. He has gotten way stronger, he canonically has accelerated developement. he is literally starchild.
8. Lowballing infinite is crazy, in a Sonic glaze video too, he'd scale to Modern Sonic during Forces, who again, COULD be scaled to 1-A. Infinitely superior to Erazor Djinn, who does have 1-A Scaling, aswell as Maginaryland scaling. Even WITH that, However. Bowser still fucking soloes, he has conceptual transcendence, and dimension transcendence because of Cutout from Paper Mario, When Mario activates his Cutout technique, he transcends the boundaries of space and time alongside dimensions, and travels to a realm outside of their universe where he can cut out pieces of the background via access to transdimensional scissors that allow him to uncover secrets via this cutting. This would also imply Mario transcends dimensionality through this technique, since if he’s transcending the very boundaries of space and time (alongside multiple dimensions), he must be transcending anything that exists within/is bound by space and time, and since dimensionality (the totality of dimensions) is comprised of spatial extents dimensionality itself would be within space and time, and thus within its boundaries, logically implying that Cutout transcends dimensionality [Beyond-Dimensional Physiology, Dimensional Travel, Spatial Manipulation, Background Manipulation]. The space that Mario performs Cutout on is implied to be apart of the cosmic ether of the universe. also scaling the universe to 1-A. as the realm’s ether is within the universe (certain parts of the Cutout Realm lie within the universe, which are interacted with from areas of the realm outside of the universe). Bowser effortlessly scales to these things, those scissors aren't even considered an actual threat to him. Let alone the strongest artifact hes surpassed.
9. Again, lowballing the sonicverse is crazy. The Time Eater COULD do those things, its just that Bowser is infinitely superior.
10. Infinite IS stronger then Solaris, and Time Eater. He's just NOT stronger then Bowser LMFAO.
11. The reason they didn't give it to him is because it isn't something he'd have on hand in an actual battle, he'd have to specifically charge it to fight Bowser for literal weeks and even then Bowser fucking trounces it and moves on to the next problem. If we're arguing that shit can just be given to certain characters, Bowser shouldn't have even been able to get scratched this fight, because with the Star Rod he wished to be unstoppable. Comparing Lightman, a form that requires charge, to Chance Time, which is something Kamek can deadass just do, along with all of his other busted abilities, (reality warping, mind control, paperization, and raw magic,)
12. Omnipresence, CAN be scaled to speed, if your everywhere all at once, you are everywhere, you can exist anywhere at any point, instantly. Which is why it could be scaled to speed. Again, even if he's Immeasurable speed. It's irrelevant, they even state this in the death battle. That speed wouldn't help Eggman LMFAO.
13. Bowser doesn't have inaccessible speed, he has IRRELEVANT speed. Which is a tier that is beyond immeasurable, he's beyond concepts, such as distance, aspatial, or atemporal. He's comparable to Mario, who can run across Superspace Bridge, superspace is a space of infinitely many dimensions postulated to contain actual space-time and all possible spaces. And Mario casually jogged through it, this just adds to the cosmology, since Superspace Bridge is a casual galaxy. Also, Bowser scales off M-Power. Aesthetic details indicate string theory such as lineland, not to mention equations are literally seen apart of dimensions in super paper mario. The Void WAS going to destroy mathematical dimensions. Scaling to 5D is chump scaling, and again lowballing the Sonicverse LMFAO.
14. "Bowser scales to 4D at best." This along with the fact you've admitted that you haven't actually tried to find shit related to his scaling just proves everyones point, you are bias against one side and have no clue about the other. Bowser is literally a dimensional transcending character.
15. "Spatial displacement is never implied to have such a weakness," your right, it's not implied too. The comic literally shows that it fucked up and didn't do what it was ment to do, which is what they're stating. Their is a difference between technology that transmutates and magic, Bowser could literally reverse the process, and It's obvious Eggman didn't have any forcesight to do so, that's literally the entire point of why Starline betrayed him. Meanwhile, Bowser. Could literally turn them back at any point. "Even beyond that, the metal virus isn't that easy to get rid of." Yes it is, to characters who can turn any other character into anything else. yes it is, not to mention if you actually did you research you'd know the Metal Virus could literally be danced away, (DDR Mario Mix has subatomic manipulation, Bowser literally has that power in his soul. If Bowser wanted to get rid of it, it's deadass as simple as dancing.)
16. "Am I gonna get unironic comments from Mario fans saying that this is supposed to be taken completely seriously?" Yes, yes you are. because if you did your research, you'd know that it WAS ment to be taken in context, the entire Minigame is dedicated to Bowser proving it, he makes monsters out of massive chemicals, not to mention; Bowser canonically leads a hyper specific army according to SMB3's manual, he has built shit like the Dark Matter Reactor, which casually erased things from existence, the Galaxy Reactor, which can recreate the entire universe several times over. (It's stated to decide the Fate of the Universe, twice, both ingame and in the manual, Luigi also says that if Bowser isn't stopped the universe falls into his claws.) He built a space station that can casually chill next to the sun, (not impressive, but Eggman has built worse LMFAO.) He canonically has a fucking doctorate, he created a bubble machine that could trap even Mario, who again, scales off all of this shit I JUST stated. (I don't care about your Mario VS Sonic debunking video, fyi. LMFAO.)
17. "The only thing that can counter the phantom ruby is the phantom ruby itself," yeah. In the fucking verse? The Star Rod is superior to the star spirits who guard and created the dream depot, which again, could be scaled to 1-A casually. The Star Rod is so strong it even beat Bowser, Bowser could literally one shot that thing, even with its highball 1-A Infinitely superior scaling, Mario's cosmology is just more specific.
18. The reason they didn't include lightman was because it would be impossible for the Doctor to have him, same reason they didn't include shit like Dark Paint Bowser (different from Fury bowser.)
19. The Chaos emeralds have infinite power, but so do fucking stars LMFAO, Stars have regularly been able to create shit on the level of Galaxies, baby stars (luma's) literally ARE galaxies, not only would stars be able to counter chaos emeralds, they have created Big Boo's, who in mario 64's manual are stated to be extradimensional threats that Mario casually sends packing, stars also created dimensions with time and space, demonstrated by tick tock clock being reflected by time, Stars can create entire universes, (Worlds= Universes in Mario, similarly to the Sonicverse.), Mario deadass says that Bobomb Battlefield is identical to his world. The Grand Star is almost infinitely superior to regular stars or the big star, it would effortlessly scale past the chaos emeralds, not to MENTION their in abundance. Like you've stated, "no matter how many finite things you have, you will never be able to counter an infinite thing." except those 'finite things' are also infinite in power and have layered transcendence LMFAO.
20. Eggman has literally proved he is willing to take things on a universal scale, the reason he doesn't is because they have to keep it grounded to Sonic's world LMFAO. The conquering thing doesn't make sense at all,
W
bowser dogwalked eggman
W, you cooked
how much you guys wanna bet he's gonna cope so hard he deletes the comment
Even if Death Battle wanted to go the route of the modified Phantom Ruby taking time to charge to actually be utilised… they literally brought up the Time Stones, just have Eggman accelerate the time it takes to gather that energy, boom! Issue solved!
Plus claiming that Bowser’s minions would resists memory manipulation from the Egg Field or Lightman due to resisting Fawful’s brainwashing is just really, really dumb. Not only do they bypass the innate resistances some of the cast have to the likes of Ifrit and Dark Gaia, but they ALSO were going to overcome the resistance a single Chaos Emerald gave against memory manipulation! Bowser, nor his army have anything to resist memory manipulation like that.
And they REALLY underrated Sage here. They said her simulations wouldn’t be reliable as she was unable to predict many of the things Sonic did during the events of Frontiers, but SEVERAL TIMES throughout the Japanese dialogue of the game, we are told Sonic is defying fate and causality in doing all of these things! No fucking shit Sage couldn’t predict that! This would NOT apply for Bowser or his army.
And they also didn’t bring up Cyberspace all that much despite how big of an advantage it is. Not only does being trapped in there take a snapshot of all your memories and add it to realm, free for Sage’s simulations as she has full control over Cyberspace post Frontiers thanks to The End no longer interfering, but being trapped, and assuming you somehow get out, would leave you digitised, you’d start losing memories, your emotions would start being messed with, but most importantly, it straight up locks you out of using certain moves and abilities, prime example being Amy not being able to use her Pico Pico Hammer.
You know it'd be really funny if bowser could time travel as well, without needing stones to do so.
@ not the point I was making, both have type 1 acausality through all their wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey rubbish, both can time travel freely, Bowser naturally, while Eggman has several options for it, with Time Eater rendering it void. The point I was making, was that Eggman can literally accelerate the rate at which the Ruby charges, the Time Stones aren’t generic time travelling gems, they have control over time period.
@@mugenkage4965 based doctor who reference
Pretty sure one of the alternative scenarios shows that they think castle Bowser would still be able to handle so even if he had it it wouldn't be of much use
Which you know is debatable but it's not like they don't bring it up
@ much appreciated!
Wonder Bowser is a VERY big win con for him, I will admit, but that’s only if he’s had time to charge the form. The main win con he gets is layered transmutation, which Eggman, nor any of his army have a resistance to, but fortunately for the Doc, it’s AOE to start out with is… kinda pitiful, it would only have reached universal levels of range had Bowser fully charged it without being interrupted, and with Eggman not needing to even be on the field at all to activate his win con of memory manipulation, it’s kind of a big deal (also to add on to this, this is under the assumption that it would even be Wonder Bowser going up against Lightman in the first place, which is giving a TON of leeway to Bowser, almost to a point where it seems he has pre fight knowledge of Eggman).
Quick question: Why isn't Neo Metal Metal Sonic's BASE form? And why not make an army of Neo Metals? If he can now control him better, then he'd be able to command an army of them right?
@@PowerBalancetheKitsune There's no real answer for this in canon, my theory is that Eggman sees Metal as a son, and building an army of your son would be weird.
@Unremarkable6969 Okay, so that mainly answers my second question. But what about my first question?
I heavily disagree with the stuff mentioned here. I'll probably post 2 comments.
1) Yes, Screwattack bringed out several stuff they didn't use in the main animation for Eggman, but so they did for Bowser, likely due to budget and time. As for Bowser, they left out some of the most useful assets in his army (Koopalings, Petey Piranha and the likes), the Dream Stone, the Power Stars, Star Rod, not to mention all the abilities he gets from Paper Mario as they said that Is canon, all the mechs and weird reality hax he got from the Mario Party games (in Mario Party 5 he could literally warp an entire multiverse and create some), etc.
2) Egg Salamander Is not universal, that Is One huge misconception. The universe getting destroyed was caused by a space-time anomaly caused by the two parallel universes intersecting when they shouldn't, which was caused by the fact that the Sol Emeralds suddenly appeared in the Sonic universe, which mustn't occur as Sonic and Sol Universes are like the North and the South poles (or two sides of the coin) and they naturally repel each other (as explained by Eggmen). This contradiction caused an anomaly in space-time which would have eventually collapsed. There is also the argument that Chaos Emeralds reacted to the Sol Emeralds as said by Tails and Eggman, granted the Chaos Emeralds were in the special stages but the special stages are protrayed to be pocket realms within Sonic's space-time so it still works (this is just additional arguments though, the one about Sonic and Sol universes repelling each other is much better). The universal feat Is a chain reaction that only really scales to the Emeralds and not the mechs and most importantly it's a chain reaction feat that happens over time, not just some casual universal explosion. It doesn't scale to the mechs especially because this feat only happens through a very specific context that can only occur in Sonic or Sol 's universe specifically, so them empowering some mech Is a completely different scenario. This feat falls more into the category of specific/conditioned Environmental Destruction rather than raw power.
3) Scaling the Super Egg Robot to Super Sonic Is faulty scaling for reasons I'm about to explain below. Regardless, scaling mechs above things like Egg Salamander or Egg Wizard because of some hyperbolic statement is rather contradictory when you have Super Sonic struggling with relatively mundane feats and yet you don't take this into account when scaling stuff to it the second after. It looks like an attempt to scale Sonic to the highest possible level through ridiculous scaling methods, ignoring that those very methods can prove the Sonic cast to be much weaker. Regardless, it's not even about the method, because Sonic has a deep enough lore which, by itself, already conteadicts all this scaling. And estabilished lore and feats >>>>
This was Just a premise, let's get into the actual arguments
4) Those statements about Eggman mechs are quite clearly hyperbolic and they are massively contradicted by estabilished lore. One of the key points in Sonic is that Eggman longs after the emeralds' infinite power, that only those can bring about all the power and feats he desires, so it wouldn't make sense IN ANY WAY that mechs not empowered by chaos emeralds are superior to the Egg Salamander, which is empowered by the Sol Emeralds who are = Chaos Emeralds, and Egg Wizard, which had the power of the stars which was scientifically measured by the Eggmen to be >>>>>Chaos Emeralds + Sol Emeralds. Why would someone take into account these kinds of descriptions anyway, through all over fiction these statements are some of the most common and they are mostly used just to hype things up and give a cool sounding definition rather than actually powerscale, especially since the authors of a game are most likely not aware nor invested into creating a coherent powerscaling. Which Is why you have these claims that, via completely ignoring context, could get them to scale above Egg Wizard, but then you have the writers claiming that Sonic doesn't even reach light speed, Super Sonic does not planet bust, etc (Ian and some others have made those claims). Hell, if we want to play the game of "the statements", there are not just statements but even SHOWINGS from the games' plots, aka statements/showings that are fundamental to the lore, that quite literally go against your powerscaling and these anti-feats happen in quite literally every sonic game: the Sonic crew getting destroyed by a fake town-sized star, Sonic crew was gonna die if Emerl would have destroyed the Earth via the energy claimed from the Final Egg Blaster in Sonic Battle, all living beings dying if the reactor wiped out the planet in an explosion in Sonic Lost World, Sonic not being able to break metal doors, Sonic can't bust out prison bars, Sonic cast getting decimated if the Ark had collided with Earth, Sonic being unable to survive a capsule exploding in Sonic Adventure 2, the cast needing to escape from Prison Island blowing up or else they would have died, Sonic crew dying if they got caught up in a city explosion (IDW), Sonic crew dying if they got cought by an avalanche, and I just took some stuff from the back of my mind but there are several of these showings/statements. Finally, Eggman has an habit of massively overestimating his own projects and mechs, saying how "this time he would win cause he's super strong", but always comically fails, sometimes in ways that make him look like he got weaker instead of stronger, so he's not that reliable.
5) No, Sonic Is not Immeasurable in Speed, or at least not everyone in Sonic is. First off, taking one feat when Sonic's consistent portrayl Is to be very fast but still limited is One example of faulty scaling. Sonic has a considerable amount of anti-feats in the Speed department (and I'm not talking about gameplay mechanics, I'm talking about plot-relevant stuff where Sonic often runs short on time, fails or struggles to escape various kind of stuff with limited speed, takes considerable time to go through considerable distances, etc). The concept of outliers exists and we should use It more often, and I'm someone who overall scales Sonic pretty high in Speed, but Immeasurable through one feat is kind of the antithesis of coherent powerscaling. Not to mention that, in Generations and even more in Shadow Generations, It Is thoroughly explained by the 2 Tails and by other various sources like game tips how the 2 Sonics are the only ones who aren't helpless in this situation and have the ability to restore space-time. Even after they were saved by Sonic, several speedy characters who by Generations are quite clearly much faster than Classic Sonic (like Blaze the Cat or Espio) are still useless in that very scenario, but a slower character like Classic Sonic isn't, so It seems that speed here Isn't the only key to said feat. It becomes clearer when we realize that Sonic and Classic Sonic, for some reason unexplained, are the only ones who managed to survive the Time Eater's erasure, which is likely directly linked to how they are the only ones capable of doing said feat. Similiarly, Shadow Is also capable of said feat, and Shadow also resisted Time Eater's space-time erasure, and Shadow is built to be exceptional, is chaos-amped and through explanations in Shadow Generations we have some direct analogy as to how Shadow is exceptional because he was built to be so and Sonic manages to be comparable through his own exceptional powers. This was just to explain how the feat can be applied to Sonic or Shadow only. But giving more context to the feat, we realize the feat was never Immeasurable to begin with: there Is a story panel in the Sonic Official JP released by Sega which confirms that Sonic fixes space-time by running at the speed of sound, the same Is confirmed in the Shadow Generations official site, and finally Shadow confirmed he could use Chaos Control to stop time indefinetely within White Space to allow Gerald and Maria to live. So, the feat is bullshit regardless
6) Ok so, there's a quite a bit with Infinite as well: 1) no, Null Space is not a universe and even if it were this feat is a Pocket Reality Manipulation which is hax --> it doesn't tell us anything about Infinite's physicals, 2) no, Metal Sonic at that point in time is not > Egg Salamander/Egg Wizard, for reasons explained in point 4 (Metal Sonic has a decent amount of anti-feats as well), and 3) that Phantom Ruby scaling to Classic Super Sonic Is not necessarily wrong but It needs further context (I'll leave the Super Sonic scaling below). Anyway, Null Space is not infinite. When Infinite trapped Sonic and Rookie in Null Space, he unleashes this black portal,and then Sonic and Rookie get sucked in. Once in Null Space, they run and at some point we quite clearly see Sonic and Rookie reach a red portal before going back to the city (that red portal was visible from a distance already), and once in the city we see that they went out of another Null Space's black portal thing but this time they are in another side of the city. This literally shows that Null Space is a tunnel with two endings aka not infinite. The game literally shows us this. Statements about It being endless are irrelevant when they are literally contradicted by canonical lore on how Sonic and Rookie escaped the place + if we have to take statements and hold them as truth, Null Space would still not be a universal feat cause Eggman explained it to be a place where nothing exists, no form of matter or life, he described it as a void. Creating an infinite space with nothing on It Is hax, It would only be power if there was an infinite amount of matter to create, but If there's nothing then the power output would be nothing.
7) Finally, we get to Super Sonic. Super Sonic, unlike Sonic, does not grow in power, he can merely learn to control his amp better. However, on a fundemental level, his power relies on several complications that come with the estabilished lore on Chaos Energy: the same lore which shows Super Sonic struggling (to the point of exhaustion) against Dark Gaia, despite the whole population of the planet Who was lending their positive thoughts to the Chaos Emeralds (thus making them much stronger) and despite getting help from the Gaia Colossus. But then, against Solaris, he appearently didn't struggle as much, despite the fact that the people cheering for them were fewer, and keep in mind Solaris happened before Dark Gaia. The Chaos Emeralds' power level Is extremely inconsistent, which makes sense considering they are chaotic in nature and have random and never coherent displays of power. Super Sonic Is full of anti-feats and newest iterations of Super Sonic struggle even to perform weaker feats (such as getting rid of the Metal Virus, where he needed Super Silver and he was so overpowered that he needed abundant medications for weeks after the incident). Even in Frontiers, Super Sonic was knocked out by The End's explosion, which would yeld more or less Country/Continent levels of power (forgot how big The End is, but If I'm not mistaken on its size this is a decent esteem), and he also struggled to contain The End's laser beam, which as shown in a flashback is planet-busting, so much so that Sage's Titan had to step in to fully neutralize it. This to say that scaling everyone who fights Super Sonic to his max power Is just highly faulty due to Super Sonic not having a set Power level for a basis, being extremely random, and the bosses usually varying themselves on power level (by feats and lore, Solaris >>>>>> The End, the latter Is at most Star level via statements). Heck, Sonic Advance Is very close to SA2 in timeline and Super Sonic in SA2 barely managed to Chaos Control the Ark, which Is about the size of a town, with the help of Super Shadow. The same Super Sonic was overpowered by a capsule exploding which turned him back to Base Form. Scaling Super Egg Robot to that Super Sonic gets It to be kind of a joke to even the lowest of Bowser's army, and It gets even worse for the Phantom Ruby, as a Classic Super Sonic was one-shot by a Base form. Regardless the point was that fighting Super Sonic gets you essentially nowhere in terms of scaling just due to how massively inconsistent Super Sonic Is. It gets even worse if you consider that some of the feats are arguably not scalable to the Super forms, like:
8) Solaris' multiversal destruction. It was estabilished in game that Solaris, upon appearing, merely warpedt the universe, it's said in the prima guide and in the game. However, due to It unleashing its power, the universe was warped and a space-time rift was created, which, eventually, would have consumed everything and reduced time to nothing. This was confirmed by Shadow and Eggman. The Super trio defeated him by getting into a fist fight, how would they scale to a Space-time rift created by another being? Also yes Solaris Is beyond time but it was specifically said to have been anchored down to their dimension, which allowed the Super trio to interact with it, so that's kind of a non-point. Not to mention that the very space-time rift allowed places from the future to co-exist with places of the past due to the timeline completely losing its shape: this Is what allowed Tails to retrieve the Emerald in Crisis City , and Omega as well. So Super Sonic, Shadow and Silver fighting Solaris "in the past, present and future" is also a non-feat cause all points in time were already condensed in that warped space.
Overall, Eggman has no real way of scaling to Super Sonic, his mechs and/or Infinite aren't above the godly dieties of the series ', the Immeasurable speed feat Is not quite a straightforward feat and only scales to a few specific beings. I haven't even touched Bowser's hax, such as the ability to restart the fight through Earlier Times, which worked against Culex in a space-time rift which by definition has no time, which means Earlier Times would still work regardless of Time Eater's space-time erasure. Bowser's counters to Eggman's hax stuff Is also all magical and pretty much instant so not much explanation to do here. Bowser stomps
Impressively long. But it shows a severe lack of knowledge, in terms of basic Sonic scaling.
@@Unremarkable6969 I mean, I do know of some obscure statement from the Mario series + something said by the writes of the Mario lore itself, or even some weird feat, then I take It out of context or just massively exaggerate it, and easily scale a Toad massively above anything in Sonic. And then tell you that your knowledge on the Mario series Is lackin, and then just propose Bowser as the winner.
Obviously, telling me I know nothing of Sonic scaling (and by extension me telling you you know nothing of Mario scaling) Is not a real argument but I can see this as a smart way to solve it since Mario vs Sonic debates usually become tiresome. It's better to just do that and call It a day I guess.
@@StarlightSayakatoad cant beat sonic
@@mkg1097 Did you actually read my reply or you just took one sentence and stripped the context? I said that if I use unproper scaling via very abstract statements and exaggerate those (which are often used by certain fans to scale Sonic cast as high as Solaris in their base forms) then I can scale Toad beyond Sonic. The point isn't that it's right, the point Is that scaling Sonic to Solaris in base Is absolute nonsense and if we had to reason through nonsense I could easily make a random Toad >>>>>> Sonic
Thank you for salt. I needed them for my fries
I know a RWBY pfp ain't talking
Damn 😒
@@I6rt6uy6idamn, beat me to the comeback.
@@I6rt6uy6i Shadow the hedgehog is cool asf tho. what's ur point?
Sonic pfp is better than a RWBY pfp so that's not a bad thing.
They already addressed most of your arguments in the actual Death Battle and provided counter points to them. I think we need to accept that Bowser just slams
Says the Dragon Ball Heroes pfp 😮💨
@Unremarkable6969 Yeah yeah, keep coping. And this isn't Heroes lmao
@@ashuraomega1000 He could have responded better but the fact of the matter is that Bowser and his army still shouldn't stand a chance.
@@ashuraomega1000 How does Bowser even touch Metal Sonic or make it past Eggman's Time Manipulation abilties? Metal Sonic has Chaos Control and Eggman's Time Manipulation is comparable to Solaris. Does Solaris scale above a Multiversal entity that exists in multiple timelines at once? With said Timelines that are confirmed to be infinite in size and still constantly expand?
@@ashuraomega1000 Do you really think Bowser can negate Time Manipulation that expands on Multiversal Scale with Timelines that have no limit in size and continously expand? Because that is the scaling you have to give him in order for him to resist amped Chaos Control and Eggman's level of Time Manipulation. It's completely illogical.
To answer the why the alternate scenario weren’t used in the fight
I’d like to bring up the length of the fight animation is 4 minutes and 34 seconds long. For Death Battle standards that’s long. With most episode only getting 3 to 3.30 for their fight animations. The previous episode Joker vs Giorno is a good example of this.
If you want more examples of how impressive the length is let’s look at season 10. The only fight animations that go as long or surpass Bowegg is length is Goku vs Superman and Frieza vs Megatron and that episode is known it’s weird pacing and drawn out scenes.
So with all that in mind, along with the fact that episode was fully hand drawn. I’m just happy we got the alternate scenarios at all especially since Moro didn’t even need to include them, adding them at the last minute because he thought they would be cool.
My favourite scene was the thwomp killing infinite 😂
"I'M NOT WEAK! I AM NOT WEAK!"
"THWOMP!"
Well he is weak. Like really. Saying Infinite is stronger than a monster that can tear time and space like tissue paper is a bit ridiculous
I have my own opinions on this but I'll save it for the "How Strong is Sonic" video
And they didn't give him Cyber Bots from Frontiers and Supreme Titan. Don't argue about Supreme because Sage was riding it.
Not eggman creation
Oh no that stuff isn’t Eggman copyrighted nor has Eggman shown he owns any of that after Frontiers. If a game later does show that then fine, but right now there’s nothing.
@@wyllgalaxy1009yea but sage still can use it, its apart of sages arsenal
@@hiddenflare6169eggman doesnt own the chaos emeralds but they still used it, if they can use it and it can be done then they can use it
@@hiddenflare6169thats like saying sonic cant turn super in a battle bc he doesnt own the emeralds
12:15 Technically Eggman does have bots capable to drive/pilot just like him with no problem like the EggRobos and (My overslept goat) Mecha Sonic Mk.II, so technically that shouldn't be much of a problem honestly
as for Bowser trump cards debunks:
-Dreamstone: As for Dreamy Bowser, we just can’t say for certain because his scalings are inconsistent. Some people even claim he’s featless, and in canon, you can see it’s not that big of a power boost. By comparing it to Bowser’s normal giant form stats, he actually surpasses the Dreamy form in some aspects.
The claim of dreams being a ton of universes isn’t consistent in Mario cosmology, especially since the wording of these claims keeps changing and it’s not backed by lore explaining how big or what shape these dreams even have. In reality, it wouldn’t be false to say these dreams are shapeless. Plus, in dreams, you can make anything happen with thought, and the Dream Stone uses everyone’s dreams as a conduit to grant wishes in the real world.
Bowser just SLIGHTLY amping himself with the Dream Stone could even highlight a limitation in his intelligence, or (more realistically) it might just show that the Dream Stone doesn’t scale as high as people think.
(there is also the point that the universe claim is a mistranslation from the original Japanese source since I think it states that instead of universes were dimensions or something like that)
-Star Rod: while it’s claimed to grant any wish, Bowser out of all things he only wished to be invincible at the start of the game. This could mean one of two things: either the Star Rod is limited, or Bowser is just dumb as hell.
ALSO the invincible wishes are temporary too, another thing people forgets and can also be outhaxed easely, nothing that the Chaos Emeralds aren't capable to do
-Wonder Flower: When Bowser controls it, he fuses with his clown car and Prince Florian's castle, turning it into a flying fortress. Ppl say that Bowser does claim he’ll reshape the universe, but the Wonder Flower is only shown to mess with reality on a level-scale or "Mario" worlds at peak, the universal claim is also inconsistent with Bowser claiming to be able to only conquering a single kingdom at the start of the game or Jr. saying in the Sunbaked Desert battle that Bowser is “taking over worlds” with that power.
When Jr. uses the Wonder Powers, he can change size, warp small areas of reality, and perform low-tier duplication which aren't big deal overall. Also, Bowser’s fusion has one glaring weakness: a big ass purple button, which people tend to forget about. Any hypothetical universal feat from the Wonder Flower can be debunked with these statements, especially since it’s confirmed that its effects take a long time to manifest. Add in the fact that Bowser is left vulnerable while waiting, and it just makes the scaling more questionable.
these are the ones that aren't really that hard to debunk in someway also now that I'm at it I'm debunking DB statement of Bowser beating his clones, showing Dark Bowser and Bowser from Party Jumboore bossfight
--Dark Star: It’s explicitly stated several times that it only copied SOME of Bowser's genetic data , not his stats or haxes by any means. Dark Bowser, both in lore and gameplay, has his own stats and strengths along with some of Bowser’s abilities, but not all of them, and even then, he doesn’t perform them like OG Bowser. Additionally, stat-wise, he’s technically weaker. (just compare how both are at their peaks Dark Bowser being lvl 35 and Og Bowser max lvl 99) this difference is supported several times in the game, they aren't equal at all cuz:
1)Dark Star disgusted by Bowser's genetic data he just takes a few and goes on, it's stated that he is so disgusted he couldn't even get the whole thing
2)Dark Star taking SOME of Bowser’s body and traits stated by Starlow, which is Way different than hax and abilities
3)Dark Star exiting Bowser's Body with half assed form because he was getting packed by Mario Bros and because he (again) was so disgusted about absorbing Bowser's data that he jsut couldn't copy or absorb the whole thing
4)Dark Star filling his Physical void by absorbing dark Fawful to complete his BODY which also confirms previous point of Dark Star
5)Dark Bowser’s statement of "I have copied body and I have copied abilities" debunked by all of this and in battle when he doesn't even show or use half of Bowser's repertory
6)Bowser not taking Dark Bowser seriously calling his dark magic plays as only good for making setups,Bowser said specifically "What's this wind? Is that your big dark power? A windstorm? Talk about wimpy..." "Great dark hurricane, seriously perfect for a final battle, you really sweat the details"
Dark Bowser was pissed bout this cuz he clearly expected Bowser to be crushed by the dark power while Bowser is lowkey roasting his magic (makes kinda sense since also Bowser dabbles in that scene) and Bowser indeed packs Dark Bowser by his clear superior skills, power, defense and haxes because it's literally what happened in the story showing the clear inferiority of Dark Bowser
7)Dark Bowser had Fawful continously clutching regen cuz he can be realistically one tapped by Og Bowser and so he had to use a suicidal Power Boost that wasn't even able to One shot Og Bowser if hit and left Dark Bowser literally at 1hp
8)Dark Bowser showed at the end to not have the speeds and durability to tank Og Bowser's punches proving that Stat wise this is accurate considering both technically being at their peak forms
Dark Bowser isn’t a perfect clone not even equal in power as Bowser and even less he doesn't have Og Bowser’s haxes. This isn't a gameplay mechanic but how the story went
--Mario Party Jumboore Bowser: This one is so funny it could almost be considered an antifeat. The minigame they show of the hypothetical battle against this Bowser isn’t even a real fight, it’s just four people on hoverboards rushing him with the sheer momentum of the vehicles and knocking him on his ass.
THO ANIMATION,EDITING AND VOICE ACTING IN THAT DEATH BATTLE WAS STRAIGHT CINEMA STILL
Stand proud, you cooked.
I find weird that people cant question who wins without getting jumped because the animation was peak
>>"Bowser just SLIGHTLY amping himself with the Dream Stone could even highlight a limitation in his intelligence, or (more realistically) it might just show that the Dream Stone doesn’t scale as high as people think. ">"Star Rod: while it’s claimed to grant any wish, Bowser out of all things he only wished to be invincible at the start of the game. This could mean one of two things: either the Star Rod is limited, or Bowser is just dumb as hell."
@@MindForgedManacle The statement isn’t backed up by anything, which is why it’s inconsistent. Also, he said in the final boss that he wanted Mario and Luigi gone literally. Then the Dreamstone got destroyed, and Bowser inhaled the fragments. In that same scene, Starlow confirms that Bowser actually ate the whole Dreamstone. The Dreamstone, still active, granted Bowser’s wish-but it was so limited that all it did was give Bowser a power boost. And that boost? It’s so slight you can literally check for yourself. Compare the stats between Dreamy Bowser and the “Bowser Fight 2” in Dream Team. Bowser’s giant form has better physical stats overall.
If this hypothetical “busted wish” could come true, then it takes a long-ass time to happen because the Dreamstone got pieced up before it even could. So yeah, my point still stands.
---
About the Star Rod
No? Bowser wanted to beat Mario once and for all, and you’re telling me a strength boost (in the first fight, since it’s not actual invincibility-check Mario Wiki trivia) and an invincibility that can be outhaxed was the key to his problems? Pick your poison: either scaling issues or brain issues.
It has a time limit-after Bowser beats Mario the first time, the strength boost disappears. But in the final boss battle, the Star Rod’s effects stay active until it gets nullified by the Star Beam. Even then, it clearly has a cooldown before Bowser can use it again.
Star Beam is just casual, low-tier nullification hax. It’s specifically shown to remove only positive status effects placed on enemies, like boosts from Magikoopas (Electrified, Invisible, attack/defense boosts, etc.). This proves it’s not some insanely powerful nullifier, showing even more how the Star Rod doesn’t scale as high as some people think.
Yeah, the Star Rod did adapt to the Star Beam (after spamming it on Bowser like a gazillion times), but then the Peach Beam comes in, amps the Star Beam slightly, and boom-the Star Rod gets outhaxed again.
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About the Wonder Flower/Powers
The problem with the Wonder Flower/power scaling is the lack of execution. These hypothetical universal claims aren’t instant at all. If they were instant, we wouldn’t even be able to play the game. What Bowser actually does with these powers is just fly slowly over levels in a single world, cast some big-ass Piranha Plants, and slightly tweak surroundings. Basically, it’s just him locking down levels and making Mario need Wonder Seeds to progress.
If Bowser really had god-tier reality manipulation powers, then they’re weak as hell. He doesn’t even use them on the Mario cast in the final boss fight. All he does is slightly manipulate his surroundings. Oh, and he’s got a big-ass button weakness.
Honestly, Jr. arguably has better control over these powers. He shows more versatility-he can use them on up to 4 people, change their sizes, make low-tier clones, manipulate small surroundings, etc.
My point with Dark Bowser was that he isn't equal to Bowser at all and this is backed up by stats differences if you check Bowser at his peak and Dark Bowser at his peak you can see that the only thing Darks Star was superior was in HP, in an hypothetical scenario where Bowser have to defeat his literal equal with same haxes and stats (things that the Mimic Ghosts from Eggman can do) he wouldn't really have a chance, at least not proven by canon
You really articulated a lot of good points. The main thing setting Bowser back with the few statements giving him a fighting chance is execution. We're told the RPG McGuffins are strong but in scale they're usually very specific in being utilized and or countered by a variant of the McGuffin specifically made to use against it. Sometimes not even by Mario and his friends being enhanced by anything to fight back outside of a hax ability giving trouble.
It's like if the Chaos Emeralds were only said to be infinite a bunch of times and we only ever saw them facing threats threatening Green Hill. People wouldn't take them seriously and discard it as flowery wording and or a No-Limits Fallacy. Meanwhile with Mario, despite their magic and other powers never going beyond the scope of Galaxy outside of Paper Mario's one-time thing, they take it word of mouth.
It always confused me Death Battle and most others take Mario's statements completely straight but with Sonic's grand showings they always doubt or downplay. Despite the scope of his feats and scaling being far more consistent compared to the other. I hope Unremarkable uses some of what you said to have an idea of properly comparing the two.
Bro unironically using marketing statements to try to powerscale 🤣🤣🤣
Marketing statements are valid for power scaling
If the power of teamwork and friendship is valid, then Marketing Statements are too.
Screw it. Everyone is now Universal+!
"The only thing that can counter the Phantom Ruby is the Phantom Ruby itself"
5 minutes earlier: "Sonic defeated Infinite in base."
I haven't played Sonic Forces, so... how does that work?
they used a prototype of the phantom ruby
"Ur games are mid" Death Battle did yall so dirty, the crying is insane 😭😭😭
Mario games put me to sleep man
@Unremarkable6969 I wish I could say the same about Sonic games, but I fell asleep whilst waiting for the levels to load 😴
That's what happens when you play Shit Station
@Unremarkable6969 I'm on Xbox
My man 🤝