@@Penguin-nx5nc That's good to hear! This is why talking about this issue and making videos about it help make the game better. Though, I kinda doubt they will change the grinding issue in a significant way. They have been showing so much resistance in the past to keep this artifact-like RNG system. I would like to be proven wrong.
Maybe. Thing is, live service games don't just die overnight. It's always a slow death, where new players stop coming in and old players begin to leave for other games. This is actually already happening with Genshin, as more people are playing Star Rail when looking at its Google Trends and Sensor Tower income. Yes, we will remember Genshin as the first of its kind, but that doesn't mean it can't die. Everything will be over one day.
@@FeyHuntwhat is your definition of death? Do you mean wuwa will cause GI to go EOS? That's not happening. Even if it caused a decline, a decline isn't death. Death means the plug has been pulled. It will eventually happen as it does to all service games, but it won't be caused by a competitor. It will be caused by the natural cycle of games. Candy crush hasn't died, nor has league of legends, Minecraft, GTA Online, call of Duty. These things will be around for a very long time and if they die it won't be because a clone killed them.
@@lostn65 I think I have stated clearly in my prior comment in this thread that any live service games will die a slow death. Instant EOS is just not realistic because of "sunk cost fallacy". You will keep playing if you have invested thousands of dollars into this game. The death of a game can happen slowly, when new players stops coming in and old players stops playing. And then it's only a matter of time until the game company decided it's no longer worth it to keep it running, hence EOS. That's what happened with Helldivers now, and it's slowly what happened to Genshin too, as it began to fall out of the public consciousness. To me, a Genshin killer is whoever claimed the top spot as the biggest gacha game in the world. As of last month, we already know it is now Honkai Star Rail. Genshin is already at second, and WuWa is on the third place right now. Do I wish Genshin to die? Not necessarily. I want it to improve. In my eyes, that game's development has been stagnant and it has the most profit-driven motivation, not player-driven, which makes the game boring as hell.
Great video but there are a few things that I'm trying to understand. 1. The elements system - I like the elements system in genshin but I want to understand why the dislike and maybe an alternative to it the would still play into the gacha side of the game 2. The grind - Every gacha game has to have some form of grind to encourage playing more or goal to reach. There has to be a reason for people to get new characters besides just looking cool and to grind the pre-existing "artifacts". No hate just really curious what you would change the systems to be like but still work as a gacha game
Hi there! Great questions! I think it's worth making a video on its own about my "ideal" gacha game someday. 1. I think more games should lean on making Elemental System more utility-based and more mindful about its uses. Utility-based means that it should give you specific use cases, like crowd control or increased defense to tackle enemy's specific attacks, or used more creatively in world exploration. This is why I think making each enemies more punishing would work well in utility-based system, since you are highly encouraged to use elemental system to adapt on the fly, choosing different reactions on the situation. At its current form in most games, you would only need to think about elemental system when you're setting up your team. Then in any combat, you're just repeating the same reaction. Specific to WuWa, I don't think elemental system is the right mechanic to include in this game. It feels more like an afterthought and less integrated into the world and lore itself, when compared to Echo system or the general sound themes they have going here. You may notice I'm not giving you a concrete breakdown on my ideal elemental system mechanics here. That's because I am still not sure how it will look like. My point has always been to make elemental reactions feels more like chaining combos in a fighting game. Making it more mindful which one you choose. 2. As for the RNG, artifact gacha is terrible because it's made to be effectively an endless progression grinding. I do understand that's how gacha games retain players so they keep logging in every day. But the devil is in the numbers. When you chart that 1.5% odds to get the artifact/echo you want and you still only have 50% chance of getting it after a year, that's just outrageous. If the goal was to keep player grinding when there is no update, then making max progression achievable within 1-2 months per character are entirely reasonable in my opinion. Plus I think if a game rely entirely on grinding as its player retention mechanic, they may have a problem with the "fun" aspect of the game. A fun game doesn't need to frustrate players for years to max out their character. Again, I would like to stress that these are not deal-breaker to me. If the game has an amazingly written story, and the combat still feel good, I will keep play it. I appreciate your time in this discussion! I like it when people ask questions and exchange opinions! 😄😄
Man I'm with you on the RNG artifact BS. If you don't like it then definitely don't play HSR which managed to make "artifact" grind/rng even worse than Genshin Impact. That is about the only way that game is worse than GI though, pretty much everything else is better, from character design to the way they treat their players. Crazy that they're owned by the same company. I'm going to try out WW out of curiosity, but if the overall experience reminds me of GI too much without any improvements I'm giving it a miss. The combat looks fun, but I'm honestly not that impressed with the character designs, no one is saying to me "ooh I want to own that character." They maybe could have won me over with a skip button, but apparently the ability to skip dialogue is limited to certain quests only. Hopefully the devs have better sense than to try to run their game like they are Hoyoverse, because they aren't going to convince anyone to switch over to their game if they treat players just as poorly or worse. "Genshin Killer" has become the new "WoW Killer", the only thing that can kill Genshin Impact is Genshin Impact. Genshin Impact was in the right place at the right time, under conditions unlikely to be recreated any time soon.
I'm completely on your side here too. I have to admit after thinking about it, artifact RNG is not an entire dealbreaker for me. No game is perfect. If HSR has more content that can outweigh that RNG bullcrap, then I might consider playing it, just to see if it's my type of game. Same as WuWa, try it, and if it's not for me, skip it. My only gripe is that Hoyoverse's writing is never satisfactory in my opinion. All Story Quests in Genshin is such a waste of time, telling stories that don't matter at all. I'm looking forward to your reply if HSR's story and story quest is at least competently written. I do agree that WuWa's characters... are lacking. Sure, the clothes are more realistic and actually not a hassle to wear. But I think Endfield's design is way better in that front, while also maintaining appeal. As for "Genshin-killer"? I think it's still possible. I think I have to make a video on that someday. For anyone to kill Genshin, they just need to bleed them dry. Make sure new players come to their game instead of Genshin. HSR sort of did that, but then again it's the same company. I appreciate this discussion! It's always refreshing to talk with a level headed mind 😄😄
I feel like the grind isn't as necessary as in genshin. Good stats are nice to have but not absolutely necessary, since if u understand the enemy and character ur playing, u can beat it.
That will be the optimistic view and what should be the best case scenario. But unfortunately, after reviewing their core game design and their past experience with Punishing Gray Raven, it seems more likely that the powercreep will force those stats to be a requirement. That's the thing about gacha games as I explain in the video. It's NEVER purely skill-based. You can be skilled, but everything comes down to numbers game.
We have no idea if this is true, especially long term. No one who has had access to the game through the closed betas can make this kind of declaration about the game yet. So you are wishcasting. Many gacha games tend to ramp up the difficulty months after launch too requiring better stats to complete the most difficult content. Every Hoyo game has done this for example.
@@Byrvurra Agreed. If there's a proof that this is better than Genshin's, I have yet to find it. As said by the reddit comment I picked up from the beta tester, it's only slightly better in the graph.
Your math on artifacts is BS. 75% chance to not get an artifact you want after a year of trying everyday? I finish complete sets of all my characters in only weeks. Are you trying to get absolutely perfect rolls? The game doesn't require it. It's the easiest gacha game of all time. Your math implies it would take 4 years to get one artifact and 20 years to complete one character set which is utter nonsense.
Easy gameplay or not is irrelevant to this discussion. The fact is there are lots of people who would try to squeeze optimization if they can, and the game encourage you to do that as a player retention mechanism. As for your calculation, we are talking about Goblets here, which is the only one that can contain Elemental Damage%, the most notoriously difficult artifact to grind. I recommend you to check out the artifact calculator website linked in my pinned comment if you don't believe this to be the case. Or heck, play the actual game and experience the pain of getting substats DEF, DEF%, and HP, HP% when you thought you had the correct Elemental Damage% main stat. Of course full set wouldn't take you 20 years, since Flower and Plume are fixed to Health and Damage Artifact grinding IS a problem that all Genshin players complain about, so to minimize this issue is a losing argument. This also doesn't take into account that this video is about Wuthering Waves and my concern about its grindiness.
That's unrealistic and absurd if F2P get more than paid players. That's how to fail at making gacha games. There's a limit to how much you can make people grind.
I don't hate Wuthering Waves, but I can't help but feel worried about its long-term success. At its current form, I don't think it's going to be the Genshin-killer we all want them to be.
As always, all sources for this video is in this comment section here. Please check them out yourself and form your own opinion.
My Thoughts on Project Mugen: ruclips.net/video/1lhTJRiB9m8/видео.html
Endfield Analysis Video: ruclips.net/video/VLshT_JtTeo/видео.html
Wuthering Waves Videos
- Devs Expain Intro: ruclips.net/video/p8a2UUGnbMg/видео.html
- Devs Interview: ruclips.net/video/Aopktk0ogpo/видео.html
- Closed Beta Remake: ruclips.net/video/bBpitFO2UO8/видео.html
- Opening Cinematic: ruclips.net/video/xOn_aOXq1ZY/видео.html
- Weather Showcase: ruclips.net/video/GsmpEwyN1M8/видео.html
- Combat System: ruclips.net/video/ihUSAGACil8/видео.html
- Combat Showcase: ruclips.net/video/prbzMwFJhC4/видео.html
- Jianxin Showcase: ruclips.net/video/CmsxifCqkPY/видео.html
- Danxin Showcase: ruclips.net/video/3bwJOl-ChME/видео.html
- Music Used: ruclips.net/video/qDlOKMO1q2c/видео.html
Section 1: Intro
- Genshin Video: ruclips.net/video/aIo5bqK26p0/видео.html
- Sensor Tower Report: www.reddit.com/r/gachagaming/comments/1b3rt2e/sensor_tower_monthly_revenue_report_feb_2024/
- Project Mugen Trailer: ruclips.net/video/xpAPIKxrSDw/видео.html
Section 2: Humble Developers
- Genshin Azdaha Behind the Scene: ruclips.net/video/fwOlW3ndDa8/видео.html
- PGR Cutscene Movie: ruclips.net/video/xLILdjnWO_c/видео.html
- Summary of PGR Controversy: medium.com/@pinkydinkyhere/trainwreck-punishing-gray-raven-574e154e831d
- PGR Free Players Can’t Complete Events: www.reddit.com/r/PunishingGrayRaven/comments/om32zo/f2pslow_spenders_cannot_unlock_karenina_event_skin/
- PGR Launch Global Players Got Shafted: www.reddit.com/r/gachagaming/comments/omu4is/pgr_global_gets_shafted_with_novice_missions_as/
- PGR Discord Mods Being Toxic: web.archive.org/web/20210901000000*/www.reddit.com/r/gachagaming/comments/omvr1v/pgr_staff_really_choose_fitting_mods_for_them/
- PGR Price Discrepancies: www.reddit.com/r/PunishingGrayRaven/comments/omqdc5/not_sure_anyone_pointed_it_out_yetbut_they_reduce/
Section 4: Gameplay
- PGR Gameplay: ruclips.net/video/0nphaivwmbo/видео.html
- Reddit Xiao: www.reddit.com/r/XiaoMains/comments/l3f08p/cries_in_bad_artifact_rolls/
- Xiao Guide: www.xiaomains.com/
- Genshin Artifact Calculator: grumd.github.io/genshin-artifact-farm-calculator/
- Genshin Artifact Wiki: genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Artifact
- Reddit 1.5% chance per day: www.reddit.com/r/gachagaming/comments/1baks6k/wuthering_waves_has_appeared_on_epic_games_store/
- Honkai Star Rail: ruclips.net/video/TC-kqoR7lUE/видео.html
Section 5: Concerns
- My Endfield Analysis Video: ruclips.net/video/VLshT_JtTeo/видео.html
- WuWa Elements: www.reddit.com/r/WutheringWaves/comments/xmmwm1/wuthering_waves_elemental_reactionseffects/
- WuWa Element Discussion: www.reddit.com/r/WutheringWaves/comments/1b6juo9/what_is_the_point_of_elements/
- PGR Gameplay vs Gabriel: ruclips.net/video/3mIdVm7Cp4o/видео.html
- Elden Ring Malenia: ruclips.net/video/1cE-2nFhKpo/видео.html
- Genshin Spiral Abyss: ruclips.net/video/ueb51yBVzrc/видео.html
- PGR vs The Twins: ruclips.net/video/FTsP1RWJVKY/видео.html
Section 6: Outro
- Reddit Announcement Date: www.reddit.com/r/gachagaming/comments/1baks6k/wuthering_waves_has_appeared_on_epic_games_store/
- Epic Game Store Page: store.epicgames.com/en-US/p/wuthering-waves-76ebc5
They just made an announcement about all the feedback they received about the grinding. And that they are willing to improve it
@@Penguin-nx5nc That's good to hear! This is why talking about this issue and making videos about it help make the game better.
Though, I kinda doubt they will change the grinding issue in a significant way. They have been showing so much resistance in the past to keep this artifact-like RNG system. I would like to be proven wrong.
There will never be a genshin killer, even if the game is the best in the world, you can't beat brand recognition
Maybe. Thing is, live service games don't just die overnight. It's always a slow death, where new players stop coming in and old players begin to leave for other games.
This is actually already happening with Genshin, as more people are playing Star Rail when looking at its Google Trends and Sensor Tower income.
Yes, we will remember Genshin as the first of its kind, but that doesn't mean it can't die. Everything will be over one day.
@@FeyHunt fair enough, even I'm loosing interest in genshin
@@FeyHuntGI has triple the player base of HSR
@@FeyHuntwhat is your definition of death? Do you mean wuwa will cause GI to go EOS? That's not happening. Even if it caused a decline, a decline isn't death. Death means the plug has been pulled. It will eventually happen as it does to all service games, but it won't be caused by a competitor. It will be caused by the natural cycle of games. Candy crush hasn't died, nor has league of legends, Minecraft, GTA Online, call of Duty. These things will be around for a very long time and if they die it won't be because a clone killed them.
@@lostn65 I think I have stated clearly in my prior comment in this thread that any live service games will die a slow death. Instant EOS is just not realistic because of "sunk cost fallacy". You will keep playing if you have invested thousands of dollars into this game.
The death of a game can happen slowly, when new players stops coming in and old players stops playing. And then it's only a matter of time until the game company decided it's no longer worth it to keep it running, hence EOS.
That's what happened with Helldivers now, and it's slowly what happened to Genshin too, as it began to fall out of the public consciousness.
To me, a Genshin killer is whoever claimed the top spot as the biggest gacha game in the world. As of last month, we already know it is now Honkai Star Rail. Genshin is already at second, and WuWa is on the third place right now.
Do I wish Genshin to die? Not necessarily. I want it to improve. In my eyes, that game's development has been stagnant and it has the most profit-driven motivation, not player-driven, which makes the game boring as hell.
Great video but there are a few things that I'm trying to understand.
1. The elements system -
I like the elements system in genshin but I want to understand why the dislike and maybe an alternative to it the would still play into the gacha side of the game
2. The grind -
Every gacha game has to have some form of grind to encourage playing more or goal to reach.
There has to be a reason for people to get new characters besides just looking cool and to grind the pre-existing "artifacts".
No hate just really curious what you would change the systems to be like but still work as a gacha game
Hi there! Great questions! I think it's worth making a video on its own about my "ideal" gacha game someday.
1. I think more games should lean on making Elemental System more utility-based and more mindful about its uses. Utility-based means that it should give you specific use cases, like crowd control or increased defense to tackle enemy's specific attacks, or used more creatively in world exploration.
This is why I think making each enemies more punishing would work well in utility-based system, since you are highly encouraged to use elemental system to adapt on the fly, choosing different reactions on the situation.
At its current form in most games, you would only need to think about elemental system when you're setting up your team. Then in any combat, you're just repeating the same reaction.
Specific to WuWa, I don't think elemental system is the right mechanic to include in this game. It feels more like an afterthought and less integrated into the world and lore itself, when compared to Echo system or the general sound themes they have going here.
You may notice I'm not giving you a concrete breakdown on my ideal elemental system mechanics here. That's because I am still not sure how it will look like. My point has always been to make elemental reactions feels more like chaining combos in a fighting game. Making it more mindful which one you choose.
2. As for the RNG, artifact gacha is terrible because it's made to be effectively an endless progression grinding. I do understand that's how gacha games retain players so they keep logging in every day.
But the devil is in the numbers. When you chart that 1.5% odds to get the artifact/echo you want and you still only have 50% chance of getting it after a year, that's just outrageous.
If the goal was to keep player grinding when there is no update, then making max progression achievable within 1-2 months per character are entirely reasonable in my opinion.
Plus I think if a game rely entirely on grinding as its player retention mechanic, they may have a problem with the "fun" aspect of the game. A fun game doesn't need to frustrate players for years to max out their character.
Again, I would like to stress that these are not deal-breaker to me. If the game has an amazingly written story, and the combat still feel good, I will keep play it.
I appreciate your time in this discussion! I like it when people ask questions and exchange opinions! 😄😄
Man I'm with you on the RNG artifact BS. If you don't like it then definitely don't play HSR which managed to make "artifact" grind/rng even worse than Genshin Impact. That is about the only way that game is worse than GI though, pretty much everything else is better, from character design to the way they treat their players. Crazy that they're owned by the same company.
I'm going to try out WW out of curiosity, but if the overall experience reminds me of GI too much without any improvements I'm giving it a miss. The combat looks fun, but I'm honestly not that impressed with the character designs, no one is saying to me "ooh I want to own that character." They maybe could have won me over with a skip button, but apparently the ability to skip dialogue is limited to certain quests only.
Hopefully the devs have better sense than to try to run their game like they are Hoyoverse, because they aren't going to convince anyone to switch over to their game if they treat players just as poorly or worse. "Genshin Killer" has become the new "WoW Killer", the only thing that can kill Genshin Impact is Genshin Impact. Genshin Impact was in the right place at the right time, under conditions unlikely to be recreated any time soon.
I'm completely on your side here too. I have to admit after thinking about it, artifact RNG is not an entire dealbreaker for me.
No game is perfect. If HSR has more content that can outweigh that RNG bullcrap, then I might consider playing it, just to see if it's my type of game. Same as WuWa, try it, and if it's not for me, skip it.
My only gripe is that Hoyoverse's writing is never satisfactory in my opinion. All Story Quests in Genshin is such a waste of time, telling stories that don't matter at all. I'm looking forward to your reply if HSR's story and story quest is at least competently written.
I do agree that WuWa's characters... are lacking. Sure, the clothes are more realistic and actually not a hassle to wear. But I think Endfield's design is way better in that front, while also maintaining appeal.
As for "Genshin-killer"? I think it's still possible. I think I have to make a video on that someday. For anyone to kill Genshin, they just need to bleed them dry. Make sure new players come to their game instead of Genshin. HSR sort of did that, but then again it's the same company.
I appreciate this discussion! It's always refreshing to talk with a level headed mind
😄😄
I feel like the grind isn't as necessary as in genshin. Good stats are nice to have but not absolutely necessary, since if u understand the enemy and character ur playing, u can beat it.
That will be the optimistic view and what should be the best case scenario. But unfortunately, after reviewing their core game design and their past experience with Punishing Gray Raven, it seems more likely that the powercreep will force those stats to be a requirement.
That's the thing about gacha games as I explain in the video. It's NEVER purely skill-based. You can be skilled, but everything comes down to numbers game.
We have no idea if this is true, especially long term. No one who has had access to the game through the closed betas can make this kind of declaration about the game yet. So you are wishcasting. Many gacha games tend to ramp up the difficulty months after launch too requiring better stats to complete the most difficult content. Every Hoyo game has done this for example.
@@Byrvurra Agreed. If there's a proof that this is better than Genshin's, I have yet to find it.
As said by the reddit comment I picked up from the beta tester, it's only slightly better in the graph.
Your math on artifacts is BS. 75% chance to not get an artifact you want after a year of trying everyday? I finish complete sets of all my characters in only weeks. Are you trying to get absolutely perfect rolls? The game doesn't require it. It's the easiest gacha game of all time.
Your math implies it would take 4 years to get one artifact and 20 years to complete one character set which is utter nonsense.
Easy gameplay or not is irrelevant to this discussion. The fact is there are lots of people who would try to squeeze optimization if they can, and the game encourage you to do that as a player retention mechanism.
As for your calculation, we are talking about Goblets here, which is the only one that can contain Elemental Damage%, the most notoriously difficult artifact to grind. I recommend you to check out the artifact calculator website linked in my pinned comment if you don't believe this to be the case. Or heck, play the actual game and experience the pain of getting substats DEF, DEF%, and HP, HP% when you thought you had the correct Elemental Damage% main stat. Of course full set wouldn't take you 20 years, since Flower and Plume are fixed to Health and Damage
Artifact grinding IS a problem that all Genshin players complain about, so to minimize this issue is a losing argument. This also doesn't take into account that this video is about Wuthering Waves and my concern about its grindiness.
Its fine if its grindy as long as the grind could help f2p players well f2p players has more numbers than whale so yeah itll help a lot
That's unrealistic and absurd if F2P get more than paid players. That's how to fail at making gacha games.
There's a limit to how much you can make people grind.