If you are on a 0$ budget, best thing you can do is place your camera/laptop in front of a window so that the window is right in front of you and it will do wonders for you video quality. Add a 10-12$ lavalier mic and you are good to go! I make my videos like that, it isnt studio quality but for most people I think that should be more than enough.
I've been doing it it's great, nothing but complements and people asking about how I got it to look and sound good. Not gonna lie, I enjoy the attention. feels pretty good getting dem complements 😊
@@indymogul It isn't the most elegant solution but works well enough for me and no need to buy additional hardware. Latency I haven't tested for exactly 🤔
@@JairajSinghPatil I've using that setup for weeks, there's no latency and the resolution holds up well, I've been really impressed with how well it works
I do the same with my canon cameras. XSi, t1i, t3i, 5d2 ... The canon webcam update only works on newer dslrs. The OBS trick works with all my canon cameras.
Quick tip: I had a tungsten light that was orange in temperature. In order to change the temperature to blue, I literally took some Glad Tupperware lids and taped it into my lamp to serve as makeshift gels. You’d be surprised how much something like that improves the color. If you don’t want to use gels, a Tupperware lid could help!
I have a similar setup with a bmpcc I had for twitch already, so when COVID hit I was spectacularly ready to flex in zoom lmao. Putting a little effort into your webcam setup can certainly set you apart if you are trying to impress.
A smart bulb can go a long way too, rather than having to switch out for different temperature /color. We use Kasa, and smart bulbs, and you can switch out the color and brightness really easy.
FYI with many canon dslrs you can as of recently plug the camera right in via the usb cable now with their beta app. It works great and I use it with my 1dx mark ii. No need for a capture card in this case.
...and don't forget to turn the background light, just a tad, to make the vertical line disappear :-) great video btw!!!! thx for sharing your interesting content and for the presentation style, smooth, enjoyable, and at a great pace.
With OBS and Virtual Camera you can link your camera directly to your setup, by USB. Since finding it I use my A7iii instead of the Laptop cam. It is gorgeous.
Wifi smart led bulbs from GE or Feit are about $10, are dimmable, you can tune the color temp, and even make them any color you want, saving you on extra dimmer switches/lamps and multiple bulbs for day or night setups. The Feit's, found at Lowes are typically cheaper than other brands.
Damn good, Ted. Outstanding. Also everyone -- check out Canon's new utility for Windows, will let you USB in their DSLRs. For the Mac check out the Camera Live + Camtwist combo (all free.)
Pretty much all modern (2013 and newer) canon cameras can be used as a webcam with just a single cable and their software, no capture card or continuous power source required.
I will designate one of my rooms in a 1BR apartment and transform it into a TV studio so that people on Zoom don't judge me for my harsh background lighting. Got it. Thanks.
4 года назад+4
Im newb at this so need clarification. When im at night/evening i just should set white balance of my camera to tungsten? But my key light (also have 120D II) will still be 5500. What then? Won’t the image be blue then?
At night time, if you have practicals that are tungsten balanced and want them to appear as white on frame - then you need to set the camera to 3200K. When your key light is set to 5500K it will appear blue when the camera’s settings change. If you have a bi-color light you can natively just change the light to output a 3200K color temperature. Since the 120d II is not a bi-color light, then you would need to gel the light. Add a layer of CTO (Color Temperature Orange) in front of the LED chip inside the softbox, to convert the 5500K into 3200K. Good to know is when you convert a 5500K light with a full stop to reach 3200K you will lose some light output due to the absorption of the light into the CTO Gel. Gels are fairly inexpensive and good to have in your kit when you want to convert any houselight or just add some color to spice things up!
You might have missed it because it was so quick, but when he changed the WB to tungsten he also set his 120D to tungsten (if your 120D is daylight only you can achieve the same with a CTO gel), making all the lights in the scene tungsten and looking white after the WB change. Personally I’m not a fan of the look they went for though, not every light NEEDS to look white in the scene. As long as your WB matches the key light so that the skin tones look natural, a tungsten light in the background which actually looks yellow can look a lot cozier and more realistic than a living room lamp that looks white for no reason.
interesting comment that house lights are tungsten. In the UK we went to flourecant many years ago. I don't think we have and a tungsten light at home for a decade. They stopped selling them in 2012. Most people started to switch to LED lighting a few years ago.
@@indymogul yes the important thing is colour temperature. It's just that in Europe (other than specialist bulbs) you haven 't been able to buy Tungsten bulbs for domestic and office use for about a decade. Everyone is on florescent or LED & I was just surprised that the USA still has tungsten bulbs in general use domestically. That aside it is a great video I have posted the link to a lot of people who need help with their videos ( and/or a nose hair trimmer :-) )
Que conteúdo rico em detalhes! O passo a passo com antes e depois ficou muito fácil para entender e aplicar no meu setup! Obrigado por compartilhar! Thank you for share!
unfortunately my earbuds have a different connector now, and I can't use them in my computer. I hate wearing headsets. Will I need to switch to a regular microphone? what kind of mic would you recommend for making videos?
I seriously just bought that same Kingtop audio splitter/combiner for mic and headphones on my iMac, and it did not work with my shotgun mic and JVC headphones.
We use OBS, which is free to download online. From there, you can choose Video Capture Device and select your camera connected to the CamLink and you're good to go! As far as the availability of the product, we hope that it becomes more readily available soon.
Imagine the pressure Larry Fong feels when Zooming with people, knowing that they know he is a professional cinematographer for big Hollywood movies? Imagine the expectations he has to fulfill?
Hi Ted, how did you get Canon 6D Mark II to work with a video capture card? It seems I cannot get clean HDMI output from the 6D II, there is always an overlay of focusing frame and moving focusing point.
I am trying to optimally grab my gear within $1000 along with a single kit lens, maybe a hundred dollars give or take, in that regard, my options as available in my region are XT30, M6 MKII, Z50 & A6400. It would mean a world to me if you could help me decide my first ever gear. My focus is purely image quality, I am not weighing on video capabilites much, I prefer my smartphone and action cam for that. Cheers & thanks in advance! apologies if I have posted this in any other video of yours. please note that i am stepping up from an iphone with no prior experience with any DSLRs or Mirrorless
It's pretty strange going into freshman year of college and most teachers see my blue snowball mic on a mic arm and are like "oh wow, you have one of those streamer setups". I am just sitting there thinking that I wanted decent audio as to not kill peoples ears unlike %45 of my classmates do
The big thing they didn't mention is using a wired connection to your internet. Web chats and streaming use utp traffic protocol on a network and even the best wifi will lose some packets and it only gets worse the more devices you have connected and the higher quality video/audio your sending.
my wife teaches dance classes in her studio and was just using her laptop with minimal lighting. I watched a class and had to redo everything. sadly im using all my Apurture lights for it which means I can't use them for my own projects.....right now at least. Great tips on this. Loved the episode
That’s so cool of you!! My mom recently had to do a deposition via Zoom and I made a cool lighting setup for her, she said now the court she works for wants all their livestreams fancily lit too 😂
At first glance I wrote this video off of something I wouldn't learn anything from but watched it anyway. To my surprise there a lot of great tips that I will use when doing webcam interviews, this is a great video thank you.
15:05 I like the contrast of tungsten light in the background and daylight on the subject. It created some nice warmth and made it feel more homely in my opinion. Would work quite nicely for certain situations
My artist Me Phi Me loved Larry's work so much way back in 1991 that I had to insist on his hire as DP for the 90's rapper's surreal "Sad New Day" music video. I even have a brief cameo, so I can proudly say forever that I was shot by Larry Fong! 🐐
For anyone who has a DSLR but doesn't want to get a capture device: if your camera has a USB data port (for offloading photos and videos usually) there is software that will let you use your DSLR as a webcam via USB cable. I use SparkoCam for my Nikon DSLR and the quality is fine for video calls/streaming. The "dummy battery" AC power adapter was cheap, but a little hard to find
With canon's latest update, you can stream directly from your canon camera at full quality! no need for a capture card. You just download EOS WEBCAM UTILITY and that's it! You're ready to go! Awesome video btw, loved it!
At 12:00 ... I use an old Canon Rebel XSi with usb, using tethered live mode with OBS Studio and the free virtual cam plug in. I get a resolution between 720p and 1080p This works with all my old Canon dslrs: XSi, t1i, t3i and 5d2.
Thanks for this. Not exactly new news to anyone with a bit of experience, but simple, useful advice well explained. Two minor suggestions - turn the lamp shade on the practical in the background so the seam doesn't show in the shot; and put your headphone cable behind you. Better yet wear a wireless earbud as did Mr Fong; it's much less obtrusive than the headphones (or "cans" as many oldies call them). Thanks again.
![How to Look Good on Zoom with GLASSES [ Day & Night Lighting Set up NO GLARE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yuX4U3gQYyM/mqdefault.jpg)
Larry Fong doing a webcam lighting tutorial, proving you're never too overqualified.
Larry can do absolutely anything!
A humble atitude. teaching is the best way to learn
@@indymogul Larry has shot lots of that mainstream hollywood crap XD Well not his fault XD job is a job.
"And we'll start with the things you already have"
Proceeds to show this huge ass light 0:30
LOL RIGHT???
LMAOOO
and the LENSE 🤣
Lol
Lol I don't even have my own house. This dudes talking about create depth. Like where in my mf apt bedroom is 'depth'?
If you are on a 0$ budget, best thing you can do is place your camera/laptop in front of a window so that the window is right in front of you and it will do wonders for you video quality. Add a 10-12$ lavalier mic and you are good to go! I make my videos like that, it isnt studio quality but for most people I think that should be more than enough.
Yeah but my background is ugly and a lamp and a few plants won't fix that 😅
Which $10/$20 lavalier mic do you recommend ?
@@ukelilly the Boya M1
Use a TV showing a white image or video, that works as a light diffuser (that they show at 13:13 )
6:25: “and everyone has those cause they come with the phone right?”
iPhone 12: allow me to introduce myself
Then you realise every high end android has one
@@Birbyvideography not anymore. Apple spoiled the party and lots are doing it now.
@@marcrtaylor yes they do have headphones
@@lethal2097 My Pixel 5 didn't come with headphones....
if you buy an iPhone 12 you have enough money to buy headphones...
Tempted to bring a dslr, shotgun mic on a boom and a light box on my 9am zoom class😂
Do it! 🤣
I've been doing it it's great, nothing but complements and people asking about how I got it to look and sound good.
Not gonna lie, I enjoy the attention. feels pretty good getting dem complements 😊
@@Sverbog same bruh
@@Sverbog same 🤣
Same haha, I just bought a cam link 😂
12:00 Actually, There is a way to plug in your camera directly (works for Sony at least) Use Remote capture and OBS set up as a virtual camera.
True! Canon also just came out with an update and some software, but we haven't had a chance to test it yet for latency.
@@indymogul It isn't the most elegant solution but works well enough for me and no need to buy additional hardware. Latency I haven't tested for exactly 🤔
@@JairajSinghPatil I've using that setup for weeks, there's no latency and the resolution holds up well, I've been really impressed with how well it works
And the cool things about OBS is that you can input LUT and do color correction within the app itself. Makes a TON of difference!
I do the same with my canon cameras. XSi, t1i, t3i, 5d2 ...
The canon webcam update only works on newer dslrs. The OBS trick works with all my canon cameras.
Quick tip: I had a tungsten light that was orange in temperature. In order to change the temperature to blue, I literally took some Glad Tupperware lids and taped it into my lamp to serve as makeshift gels. You’d be surprised how much something like that improves the color. If you don’t want to use gels, a Tupperware lid could help!
Athan Condax That’s fucking genius lol
Props to Ted for keeping Indy Mogul alive and well even through this tumultuous times.
You guys rock. I was smiling the whole time watching this video. Always useful, always a joy to watch!
We got a *"SUPER TIMELAPSE!"* Wooo!
I have a similar setup with a bmpcc I had for twitch already, so when COVID hit I was spectacularly ready to flex in zoom lmao. Putting a little effort into your webcam setup can certainly set you apart if you are trying to impress.
A smart bulb can go a long way too, rather than having to switch out for different temperature /color.
We use Kasa, and smart bulbs, and you can switch out the color and brightness really easy.
So great. Pretty realistic. First view of your materials. Keep them coming.
This is so good. Thank you both. With love from Lagos, Nigeria.
Can't believe Larry is here...he is legend in one of my biggest inspiration!!!💕
not a lot of money? LOL wtf, the DLSR alone will cost me my monthly rent and utilities
try using phone camera, there are bunch of apps that help, but it’s a bit nerdy and i could not find free with watermark
@@TheHy6xD yes. I usually use Droidcam, it is free with a limited resolution and no watermark.
But for apple device, i dont know.
@@hardiantosyukri6942 it’s free with a watermark and lower resolution*
@@TheHy6xD I use Iriun Cam to use my phone as a webcam
Yea switching for the DSLR felt a bit cheaty, especially after they kept saying “webcam” even when the background was super blurry.
FYI with many canon dslrs you can as of recently plug the camera right in via the usb cable now with their beta app. It works great and I use it with my 1dx mark ii. No need for a capture card in this case.
I've tested it with my Rebel as well.
Whisky Canuck nice! It’s just nice we have the option without buying more hardware
Work even with my old T3i... I installed the T6i driver version.
...and don't forget to turn the background light, just a tad, to make the vertical line disappear :-) great video btw!!!! thx for sharing your interesting content and for the presentation style, smooth, enjoyable, and at a great pace.
thanks for sharing... definitely will use your tips for my videos
"we've come a long way, very quickly and with not a lot of money"
proceeds to use a 1000$ camera with a 130$ cam link
I love these episodes. Larry is such a cool guy. I chat with him a few times on Twitter.
With OBS and Virtual Camera you can link your camera directly to your setup, by USB. Since finding it I use my A7iii instead of the Laptop cam. It is gorgeous.
Wifi smart led bulbs from GE or Feit are about $10, are dimmable, you can tune the color temp, and even make them any color you want, saving you on extra dimmer switches/lamps and multiple bulbs for day or night setups. The Feit's, found at Lowes are typically cheaper than other brands.
such a great video ,I was always wondering how to perfect the webcam experience ,thank you
Glad you found the video helpful!
I Really enjoyed your podcast guys. Thank you bothfor the tips.
Yes all of these are things that I already have lying around 😀✋
This was really great guys! I really appreciated the help. 👍👍
Damn good, Ted. Outstanding. Also everyone -- check out Canon's new utility for Windows, will let you USB in their DSLRs. For the Mac check out the Camera Live + Camtwist combo (all free.)
Pretty much all modern (2013 and newer) canon cameras can be used as a webcam with just a single cable and their software, no capture card or continuous power source required.
Did you use the video light when shooting the video?
My friend told me YEHUA video light is good, isn't it?
I will designate one of my rooms in a 1BR apartment and transform it into a TV studio so that people on Zoom don't judge me for my harsh background lighting. Got it. Thanks.
Im newb at this so need clarification. When im at night/evening i just should set white balance of my camera to tungsten? But my key light (also have 120D II) will still be 5500. What then? Won’t the image be blue then?
At night time, if you have practicals that are tungsten balanced and want them to appear as white on frame - then you need to set the camera to 3200K. When your key light is set to 5500K it will appear blue when the camera’s settings change. If you have a bi-color light you can natively just change the light to output a 3200K color temperature. Since the 120d II is not a bi-color light, then you would need to gel the light. Add a layer of CTO (Color Temperature Orange) in front of the LED chip inside the softbox, to convert the 5500K into 3200K. Good to know is when you convert a 5500K light with a full stop to reach 3200K you will lose some light output due to the absorption of the light into the CTO Gel. Gels are fairly inexpensive and good to have in your kit when you want to convert any houselight or just add some color to spice things up!
You might have missed it because it was so quick, but when he changed the WB to tungsten he also set his 120D to tungsten (if your 120D is daylight only you can achieve the same with a CTO gel), making all the lights in the scene tungsten and looking white after the WB change.
Personally I’m not a fan of the look they went for though, not every light NEEDS to look white in the scene. As long as your WB matches the key light so that the skin tones look natural, a tungsten light in the background which actually looks yellow can look a lot cozier and more realistic than a living room lamp that looks white for no reason.
interesting comment that house lights are tungsten. In the UK we went to flourecant many years ago. I don't think we have and a tungsten light at home for a decade. They stopped selling them in 2012. Most people started to switch to LED lighting a few years ago.
That's interesting! The main idea is to pay attention to color temperature, since tungsten bulbs can also be LED nowadays
@@indymogul yes the important thing is colour temperature.
It's just that in Europe (other than specialist bulbs) you haven 't been able to buy Tungsten bulbs for domestic and office use for about a decade. Everyone is on florescent or LED & I was just surprised that the USA still has tungsten bulbs in general use domestically.
That aside it is a great video I have posted the link to a lot of people who need help with their videos ( and/or a nose hair trimmer :-) )
Que conteúdo rico em detalhes! O passo a passo com antes e depois ficou muito fácil para entender e aplicar no meu setup! Obrigado por compartilhar! Thank you for share!
Dude! I thought Larry Fong was Ted with an aging filter like those on Instagram! I thought "Damn! This filter is good!"
Great video, thanks
unfortunately my earbuds have a different connector now, and I can't use them in my computer. I hate wearing headsets. Will I need to switch to a regular microphone?
what kind of mic would you recommend for making videos?
child :why does this man have air pods
mom : this Is not a good place kid lets get out of here....
Larry Fong seems like the coolest guy
Right?!
He seems so fun!! I’d watch tutorials from him all day
not a lot of money makes me giggle. Amazing shot btw!
Nice setup
Good work 👍😁😁😁😁
And/or use the sunlight and switch your position to face the window to use the actual sunlight coming in
This is video for a webcam. But suddenly it became a DSLR and the quality improved greatly. Bait and switch.. bait and switch
good tip for all the students taking online classes.
I seriously just bought that same Kingtop audio splitter/combiner for mic and headphones on my iMac, and it did not work with my shotgun mic and JVC headphones.
Oh yes I definitely have a dslr camera with a softbox lighting lying around.
Thanks for sharing this content.
Use my Sony @ as webcam. Best option if you ask me, and almost same price if you buy an @5100 used.
The dude who shot 300 !?!?!?! I am in.
1 word..
EXPENSIVE!!
best software to capture video?
Could you talk about the software you use when using an external camera? Also, where can you find the CamLink. Not able to find it. Thank you!
We use OBS, which is free to download online. From there, you can choose Video Capture Device and select your camera connected to the CamLink and you're good to go! As far as the availability of the product, we hope that it becomes more readily available soon.
Was kinda interesting for a bit but gave up after the 14th advert..... :(
How about ring lights? Whether they face you directly or at an angle
Imagine the pressure Larry Fong feels when Zooming with people, knowing that they know he is a professional cinematographer for big Hollywood movies? Imagine the expectations he has to fulfill?
Please what's the font used to write those words on screen? 😁😁😁😁
Very interesting!
Damn. I am gonna have to step up my game for Hinge dates.
Can someone please advise: Lav mic or Condenser mic for YT?
Advisor: So I think we can use a Red camera now to make it look even better.
This guy: Yeah I have one of those lying around at the office.
don’t judge my background. The clutter is staged.
How did you get clean HDMI and audio from your Canon 6D Mark II?
He didn’t get audio from the 6D
Still can’t fix my face.
dun worry sweetheart u look perfect
Underrated
Omg its him!
Cheapest softlight is cranking up your screen's brightness and having light coloured stuff on screen.
Hi Ted, how did you get Canon 6D Mark II to work with a video capture card? It seems I cannot get clean HDMI output from the 6D II, there is always an overlay of focusing frame and moving focusing point.
I figured it out myself: Manual Focus!
We just pressed the Info/Display button until there was no more overlay + Manual Focus!
Gonna try at home😅
That quickly got escalated.
3:35 I don’t se much difference in the before and after 😊
love your channel! Keep it up👍
thanks for the kind words!
we gonna bring stuff your already have proceeds to bring out the mark 2
I am trying to optimally grab my gear within $1000 along with a single kit lens, maybe a hundred dollars give or take, in that regard, my options as available in my region are XT30, M6 MKII, Z50 & A6400. It would mean a world to me if you could help me decide my first ever gear. My focus is purely image quality, I am not weighing on video capabilites much, I prefer my smartphone and action cam for that.
Cheers & thanks in advance!
apologies if I have posted this in any other video of yours.
please note that i am stepping up from an iphone with no prior experience with any DSLRs or Mirrorless
Even the “clutter” is staged. Lol
🤣
I am kind confused. Larry Fong looks like 60s years old, acts like 40s and sounds like 20s.
tru🤣😅
I was about to comment this🤣🤣🤣
How old is he actually?
he is 10
Me: put a green screen and put myself underwater beside a shark
It's pretty strange going into freshman year of college and most teachers see my blue snowball mic on a mic arm and are like "oh wow, you have one of those streamer setups". I am just sitting there thinking that I wanted decent audio as to not kill peoples ears unlike %45 of my classmates do
Same lol, didn't want to make the people on discord deaf and now it's somehow special having a mic setup
from an integrated webcam to a camera that cost more then my my whole computer desk setup,
If you have an android phone you can download droid cam and use your phone as a webcam, smartphones these days have really good camera's actually.
@@huzaifaabdulwadoodsiddiqui3033 Yes but droidcam is really laggy :( or am i missing something?
The big thing they didn't mention is using a wired connection to your internet. Web chats and streaming use utp traffic protocol on a network and even the best wifi will lose some packets and it only gets worse the more devices you have connected and the higher quality video/audio your sending.
my wife teaches dance classes in her studio and was just using her laptop with minimal lighting. I watched a class and had to redo everything. sadly im using all my Apurture lights for it which means I can't use them for my own projects.....right now at least. Great tips on this. Loved the episode
She's lucky to have a filmmaker in her corner!
That’s so cool of you!! My mom recently had to do a deposition via Zoom and I made a cool lighting setup for her, she said now the court she works for wants all their livestreams fancily lit too 😂
@@DodaGarcia lol yeah that is the drawback of it, isn't it? Thats awesome to hear!
LOOL I’ve been on video conferences for months now wondering why everyone’s quality is so good until I realized I was doing it like this guy
"People are gonna judge you based on your background." OMG THIS IS SOOOOO TRUE
Everyone has earphone ,it comes with the phone right ?
Iphone 12 owners 👀
At first glance I wrote this video off of something I wouldn't learn anything from but watched it anyway. To my surprise there a lot of great tips that I will use when doing webcam interviews, this is a great video thank you.
15:05 I like the contrast of tungsten light in the background and daylight on the subject. It created some nice warmth and made it feel more homely in my opinion.
Would work quite nicely for certain situations
Yea right? That looked so much more cozy
Yea I wasn’t sure either about making the tungsten look white
My artist Me Phi Me loved Larry's work so much way back in 1991 that I had to insist on his hire as DP for the 90's rapper's surreal "Sad New Day" music video. I even have a brief cameo, so I can proudly say forever that I was shot by Larry Fong! 🐐
I know there is also an OBS app for your phone that could look just as well, & probably better quality than the MacBook webcam footage.
Indy mogul content is always gold.
BvS, 300 and King Kong are a few of the most visually beautiful movies I've ever seen. Larry Fong is truly a legendary DP
Meanwhile me: Using phone for my zoom class
This escalated really well towards the end lol.
Very cool suggestion video. Given the amount of Zoom video calls I'm doing these days, this would make it more fun to say the least.
For anyone who has a DSLR but doesn't want to get a capture device: if your camera has a USB data port (for offloading photos and videos usually) there is software that will let you use your DSLR as a webcam via USB cable. I use SparkoCam for my Nikon DSLR and the quality is fine for video calls/streaming. The "dummy battery" AC power adapter was cheap, but a little hard to find
Thanks so much for these simple and practical tips. The sphere paper lights are a fantastic idea! I can't wait to try them out.
With canon's latest update, you can stream directly from your canon camera at full quality! no need for a capture card. You just download EOS WEBCAM UTILITY and that's it! You're ready to go! Awesome video btw, loved it!
Doesn't work with Zoom on your desktop, only on the web? So less functionality...
I really appreciate this lesson! And even more the divisions of the chapters in the video, just amazing!
At 12:00 ... I use an old Canon Rebel XSi with usb, using tethered live mode with OBS Studio and the free virtual cam plug in.
I get a resolution between 720p and 1080p
This works with all my old Canon dslrs: XSi, t1i, t3i and 5d2.
Omg they dindnt talk about eos utility webcam
Can we talk about how this guy has everything like damnn 😂😂
Loved his work with Zack Snyder movies. He truly is one of the best cinematographers working right now.
Thanks for this. Not exactly new news to anyone with a bit of experience, but simple, useful advice well explained. Two minor suggestions - turn the lamp shade on the practical in the background so the seam doesn't show in the shot; and put your headphone cable behind you. Better yet wear a wireless earbud as did Mr Fong; it's much less obtrusive than the headphones (or "cans" as many oldies call them). Thanks again.