I was saved in part by watching The Bible Project. It didn’t give me a perfect understanding of The Bible immediately, but it opened my mind and heart to actually want to read it. I think that’s a beautiful thing
I was saved in part but a lady who is very pentacostal and believes u can only have the Holy Spirit by speaking in tongues. She also believes u can lose ur salvation. I don’t believe the same. Just noting that God can use seeds and then u grow as a mature Christian and things change. I followed many things as a new Christian that I don’t follow or watch today, including the Bible project.
@@TheWarriorLV Great point! I've even heard scholarly book writers say they wish they could re-write previous works, as their beliefs changed since. That's the main reason I don't write books - that and the fact that i don't know how to write books. ha ha
At the end of the day, it's advisable to keep asking God to keep us away from error no matter who it's coming from. Tim breaks down the Bible really well but all His teachings aren't perfect -- just like all other teachers. That's why we all need to study the Word above all commentaries and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal it to us.
the Holy Spirit always leads us to the Head, which is Christ, and the Body, the members, the believers. Many errors are propagated in Christianity because the believers have not experienced the Body life, a life dependent on others. Independency and individuality in seeking the Spirit without going to other brothers surely lead to our own concepts and possible deviations.
@Ade Kiseu thank you, I was thinking the same thing but didn’t know how to say it. The Bible Project doesn’t claim to be the Bible itself. It’s not the perfect Word of God. It’s a tool that helps me search and understand the Bible for myself. If there is Heresy is some of the teachings on this channel then we should point it out and make others aware. It’s true, even if a vast majority of the channel is on point, but only a small percentage is wrong, then it’s all wrong and we should not support it. However, each person needs to come to this conclusion on our own. I plan to check out the examples used because some of the videos were edited and I need to make sure for myself before I share this with others. So, I pray that we will all continue to “search the scriptures daily”, find the facts, do our own research and come to our own conclusions. 🙏🏾
I think you have misunderstood and misrepresented most of what Mr. Mackie was saying in the videos you have shown. He isn't saying there isn't a literal heaven or hell, what is saying is that heaven is here on earth as well, as Jesus proclaimed in Mark 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." (which was in the video you used a clip from.) Since Heaven is where God resides, and we have the Holy Spirit in us, then we participate in bringing Heaven down to earth. In other words, we don't have to die in order to experience God's kingdom. We do have to have a physical death to get a new body. You also misrepresented what he said regarding "sadistic." He didn't say hell wasn't sadistic, he said God is not sadistically punishing those in hell. He never said heaven and hell are metaphorical, what he is saying that heaven and hell are both here now and coming, just like the Kingdom of God. We can experience a partial now, but the fullness is still to come. Do I agree with everything anyone says, no, including Mr. Mackie, but I also don't try and misrepresent them either. With regards to atonement, the purpose of the videos you took clips from were not not talking about atonement, but rather trying to get people to realize that we can't be closet Christians, (which the title of one of the videos "Compelled: Speaking and Living the Gospel" explains) that through our obedience and allowing God to change our hearts, we don't have to wait until death to experience heaven, or we can go against him and unleash hell on earth through our actions. It's like you tried force these videos into your agenda. If you wanted to talk about atonement (which in the video reference above, he puts in a clip of a Bible project video that talks about atonement and how the blood "somehow absorbs the sin and creates a clean space where we can enter into God' presence", which basically means it "covers" sin, "cancels" our debt, and "reconciles" us to God. The fact that you didn't even address the one part of the video that Mackie talks about atonement via the Bible Project (which is what this video's title is supposedly about), leads me to think you have some sort of agenda or really didn't watch/pay attention to the video. You could have easily used the actual Bible Project videos about sin and atonement, as well as podcasts and articles. It literally took me two minutes to google search and find them. I suggest to everyone whenever anyone says anything that they go research it for themselves to make an informed decision. It took 1 minute to search youtube to find the video in question and another 44 minutes to watch his whole video. At least watch more than a few minutes of a couple of video before you put out a video pretty much calling someone a heretic. BTW, the alluding that Mr. Mackie and Joel Osteen are similar is weak and I'm assuming is a ploy to sway people to your thoughts regarding Mr. Mackie. Also your title is very misleading at best and completely dishonest at worst, as you attack Mr. Mackie himself and sermons he has said. Yes he is a part of the Bible Project and some of his theology may influence it, but you did not show anyone that is has since you did not use any Bible Project videos in your so called critique of the Bible Project.
Thank you for this comment Jason! I though a lot of what he said was misrepresentation of what Tim Mackie actually believes, preaches and talks about on the bible project videos/ podcast
Yeah, he totally lost the plot of what Tim said and cuts out specific parts. It sounds like he actually hasn't listened to Tim properly before. In many of Tim's messages he also quoted other Christians who hold the same belief.thr Bible project never just says things but it's always researched and meditated from the Bible.
I have listened to 90% of Tim's teaching and 95% of the Bible Project content and I couldn't disagree more with this video. I am sorry but this is just very wrong. Tim's views are so shaped by scripture. To compare him to Osteen is a gross caricature.
To compare him to Joel is completely fair. Fall out of love with Tim and the Bible Project and see that he is making light of Hell and misrepresenting the atonement. Good job Corey!
I remember watching that Bible Project video & immediately smelled false teaching. "Jesus wants to get the he'll out of you". What? No, Jesus wants to get the sin out of us by freeing us from our slavery to sin so we can be slaves to righteousness! Hell is not something in us. It's a place created for the devil & his demons, & unfortunately many people will choose to reject God's offer & go there as well. I agree w/ Corey, most of the BP matera is sound but this isn't!
It’s more fun to participate in Christian takedown culture and perpetuate 200 year old ideas than to apply critical thought and prayerfully consider traditions older than our own. As Tim Mackie himself said: “what we’re doing is getting off the bus in Jerusalem and looking for the McDonalds.” (I’m paraphrasing something he said on his podcast re: genesis/creation. But it’s an idea that applies here as well)
I am familiar with just about all of Tim’s teachings available on RUclips. I’ve watched maybe 90% of them. I think that the heart of what he is trying to communicate is that if your life has not been changed by the gospel, if you do not desire the kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, if you are not about the work God has given you. If you do not hate your sin and desire to be transformed now…you might not be a Christian.
I tend to agree with you but the problem is when you try to infer what someone says that means it’s been left up to both good and bad interpretation. The truth is we know Hell exists and as was stated we know what it’s like. There is also no getting around lake of fire in Revelation. So while I have used gospel project and do believe it does a good job way more than not I would say we must speak clearly and not leave our words on the Bible up for interpretation. Say what you mean… mean what you say
@@dustycoward7615 where he says hell wasn't created on page one? And whatever hell is was created later. This is completely accurate. Can you tell me what verse on the first page of the Bible has the creation account of hell?
Tim is fluent in Hebrew, with a PHD in semantic languages. I didn't say his teachings are perfect, we've gotta test what he says to scripture. the Bible Project is amazing and has helped so many grow their faith. also, before you talk about the full context of someones teachings, put the full verse of Psalm 46:10 behind you. The irony is astounding brother.
Nathan Mell Be careful about using the word “fluent.” Very few theologians are actually fluent. Typically they get their knowledge of original languages from school (seminary), and their expensive personal libraries. It leads laymen into believing their expertise is greater than it is.
@@larrytruelove8659 Good word, but Tim is fluent. I got this info from a collegiate interview where Tim says that he was fluent in reading Hebrew before he went to study at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem for a year.
Hmmm I think what's a the heart of the Bible Project is to get people excited and see that the bible is not as intimidating as they think. One thing I appreciate about the bible project is that it's sparked a HUGE love and interest in reading the Word. They've totally changed the way I see it and read it as as a result I've understood it more. I even lead a bible study group and sometimes I use the videos because a lot of people a visual learners. It's fine if it's not for you but lots of people have really benefitted from TBP
I absolutely got excited about reading the Bible and understood the bible from this project. However I am willing to be challenged as I KNOW just how insidious the incoming of false teaching into a church, is. In their creation/genesis video. There is no mention of creation of all in 6 days and NO mention of the serpent tempting Eve. I am very willing to learn of Sound biblical understanding for myself through questioning this teaching rather than giving up my questioning because of a ‘clever’ presentation.
@@JCIL-33 water down, bro Tim goes super in-depth on how a lot of scripture connections and might have some wrong theology but overall is extremely accurate, I promise we all have something misunderstood in the Bible we aren't god, is why we will be revealed all these things when we meet him in heaven.
To anyone seeing this, if its alright, please whisper a prayer for me and my family? Truly needed it at this point. 🙏 Been a long and repetitive battle. 💔 Please pray for our total healing, stable source of income and may we finally have a place of our own, its so painful to keep on walking on eggshells in someone else's place, and not knowing when theyll kick us again. 💔 May help finally arrive. 🙏 Thank you and GOD bless. 🙏❤️
@@PleaseViewMyChannel how are we doing today? Thanking God for you and that he continue to protect you, and restore what the locust have eaten. May you forget the former things just has God does about our sins. May he do a new thing in your life today! God bless you!!
@@shellyhoward3060 not doing any better, its worse actually. But gotta keep going because i know this TEST will soon become a testimony. ❤️ Thabk you fot praying. This means so much to me. GOD bless you always. 🙏
I appreciate the Bible Project. It provides answers to some questions that puzzle the normal Christian. Also, it is good practice to read the text for yourself and understand the culture, context, history …
I think you need to take a step back and study the scriptures without looking into what you believe. Be an inquirer. It took Paul 3 years to unlearn what he thought he understood about the Gospel. After more than 1500 years of catholic dominants in the dark ages, many protestant churches left the Catholic Church with a few of it's beliefs, and to this day Christians hold to Sunday as their Sabbath, a law set up by the Catholic Church. This is why they won in the Council of Trent, because the Reformation was not complete. Today many are returning to Rome
@@nathimagagula1712 Their sabbath, not God’s sabbath. God’s sabbath was never on a Sunday. I wouldn’t trust the Bible Project no more than the vatican and pope. Rome is one of the biggest epicenters of heresy. As many are unfortunately returning, thankfully many have had their spiritual eyes opened and have left as well.
@@nathimagagula1712 Sunday is nort Sabath. Disciples met on the first day of the week to break bread, especially among the gentiles. In Jerusalem, the breaking of bread was done in the homes. No day, in particular, was prominent. Take your own advice and take a step back. Reexamine history and read or listen to many authors. It is impossible not to have a bias or tendency but some are more objective than others. God gave us members of the body that can help us understand better the truth. Without the truth, we cannot experience Christ and much less enjoy Him as our grace and life supply. God's intention is not merely to have sound teaching but that Christ becomes our all. (Galatians 2:20; 4}:19 / Ephesians 3:16-19 / Colossians 3:16 / 1Corinthians 6:17; 15::10)
@@AfroCentauri There is still a Sabbath remaining for God's people /Hebrews). Listen to the radio archive Life-Study of Hebrews and get the NT recovery version. Ths real Sabbath is Christ Himself. Now as a period of time the millennial will be a Sabbath even a Jubilee on Earth. The consummated and total Sabbath will be the New Jerusalem, The purpose of the Sabbath is that God becomes our resting place and the peace as a result of being reconciled to Him. This is the real grace.
While this was a thoughtful video, I think this was honestly a bit of a misunderstanding of how Tim views a lot of these things. I think you have a presupposition of things associated with progressive Christianity when you listen to his teachings when his teachings are in stark opposition to it. He’s very hard on sin, does not have a metaphorical view of heaven and hell, and he isn’t just saying that we should live as if heaven is on earth lol. I think if you looked more in depth into his teachings and took out the presuppositions that you bring to it, you would not come to the conclusion that you do. God bless.
I do watch Bible Project channel quite consistently. I now think you are distorting what Tim end up saying in all these videos. Tim does highlight the wrath of God at the end. What The Day of The Lord videos. I believe you, my brother in Christ are taking snippets of Tim's points and removing them from context.
All of the material you examined were from 2015, I think you should watch and listen to his follow-up sermons and podcasts. You'll find Tim doesn't dismiss heaven and hell as being metaphorical, nor does he shy away from God's judgement. It's really sad to see such a good resource for analyzing themes and words be dismissed by people who haven't even given it a chance.
I don't just forever sing the praises of a God that didn't kill me. I sing forever the praises of the God who didn't kill me when I deserved death. I was unworthy and the wages of sin is death. Romans
@@TheBenevolentDictatorship because He wants to give the fruits of this tree to those who are deemed (by Him of course) worthy. We were forbidden from eating this fruit because, we already had eaten from the fruit of knowledge of good and bad. If you cannot obey a simple order, and you are eternal, what mess is gonna come out of it? We had to learn first, that there are consequences to our actions. Now we know that, when doing wrong, we are to suffer the consequences. That's the direct effects of the fruit we ate (knowing right from wrong). Anyway, we're not to discuss God's decisions and thinking. And the death that is mentioned has at least three different meanings. First of all, the death of the Nephesh (physical body), because after the first sin, God said that he would reduce the length of our days on earth. The second meaning relates to death itself, wich is separation from God. Then, the third meaning is about eternal damnation, lake of fire, after judgment day. But it's about destruction more than it is about torture. It's called the second death, wich means that, after dying with the physical body, and resurrecting on the day of judgment, the person who's condemned goes to the lake of fire to die a second time, for good. Maybe it is because as long as the day of judgment isnt there, no one goes there. Also, maybe it is because God separates the Nechama (soul) from the body, so that's why there are two places and two deaths. I don't know. But that's not as important as it is to actually do better to get closer to what God wants for us. Loving God is about following his commands, and his commands are only there to protect and guide us, wich is how He shows His love to us. That's a two sided relationship.
@@LM-vg3fk Yes, that’s exactly my point: the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment. Scripture is clear that God alone is immortal and that immortality is a gift for those in Christ, not something which we already possess. The Scriptural support for Conditionalism is abundant while there are only a few proof texts which are used in support of ECT, almost all coming from the middle chapters of Revelation, the least literal in all of Scripture. To those who by patience seek for glory, honor and immortality, he will grant eternal life. The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The choice is always shown to be between everlasting life or everlasting death, not everlasting torture.
@@TheBenevolentDictatorshipbiblically death also means separation from God and there are passages that talk about the "second death" in a place of eter al torment hell. Your question is a good one- God guarded the tree of life after sin and all its destructive consequences came into the world. He didn't want humans to be doomed to an eternity in our current broken, fallen world. The tree is spoken of again in revelation after Jesus returns and there is a new heaven and new earth, with no sin or suffering any longer. Then the redeemed ones will eat from that tree. He made a way out of that eternal suffering we (humanity) brought upon ourselves with sin, for all who choose to accept it.
Only God is good, that was true during the Bible times and still is today. So it puzzles me that people look for perfection in ma n when we know for sure that man doesn't have it. At the end of the day, we all need to test the word in the Spirit . Because only God is good .
I just found you and this is the first video I picked because I do have a hesitancy about Tim and BP and I wanted to see what you would say specifically. Funny enough, this is one teaching of Tim's I have watched through a couple of times for personal reasons as it was sent to me by a dear friend. The trouble with picking and choosing certain points to another person's teaching is that you can so easily take it out of context. I'm not saying you did that intentionally, but I do know the ending to this teaching and I don't think it is heretical. I've also watched the Q&A session they did for this particular teaching. The way it is framed here, it certainly seems heretical. Make no mistake, I have not spent any time watching other BP teaching, so I don't have all this 'sound teaching' piled up to be able to "lessen the heretical". I would have felt much better about this video if you would have encouraged people to go watch the whole video with caution and judge with discernment and scripture OR if you had reacted to the whole teaching, especially the end and what Tim says Hell is. At the heart of the message, Tim believes Hell is our eternal choice of separation from God and as eternity goes on, we get further and further from God. He talks about standing in the Valley of Hinnom, or GeHenna, with his wife and the realization of Hell being a real place; a real, eternal, and agonizing experience for those who turn their back on Jesus.
I totally agree with you. I think brother Corey is selecting stand alone points from Tim's teaching meant to provoke the audience to think through them. Then Tim always round up full circle to deliver the idea on that particular point. Bible Project is biblically centered so far. Brother Corey needs to understand this too, no one person has got it all anyway when it comes to the Word of God. We need to be building each other up and not tearing down other workers in the same Body of Christ.
@@kingmusaba6045 thank you. I don’t want to sound ungrateful to someone trying to point out false teaching, because that’s important. I would be interested if he did a whole look at Tim’s full teaching on it - especially what Tim comes around to saying what he believes Hell is and why he believes that from the text- which does sound completely, well, hellish. BP seems to be really big on looking at the text and understanding it in context as to whether it was meant as literal, figurative and what that means as we live our lives for the kingdom now.
@@deannarmartin113 I totally agree. Pointing out false or heretic teaching is needed, especially in our age. I don't mind even when someone points out an error with the agenda to correct. I mean the Apostle Paul corrected Peter publicly and wrote it down for us to see and learn from. You are so on point with what BP is trying to do in their videos....I get the same idea and I literally doubt check with scripture itself.
i agree, this video does a disservice to Tim, honestly. I'm fairly certain Tim doesn't believe Hell is just an optional place that isn't as good as heaven. Tim also doesn't think heaven isn't that great either. I think his teaching speaks for itself, though I don't feel like I can agree with everything 100% and do feel some liberal stuff creeping in, I think it's much closer to the truth than what SCC has, which is pretty wooden imo. We've had Christus Victor and 6 other theories for a really long time, like come on.
Nah, you missed on this one man. Think you misunderstood the brother. He is just looking at hell from a different perspective. Focusing his view less on how God punishes people out of His wrath but on how man chooses their own fate in refusing God. He seems to be proposing the that most tormenting thing is to be removed from the presence and grace of God even the passive grace. He's actually making much more of who God is. He also teaches a here but not yet view on the Kingdom so I would imagine he appeals to a parallel idea on the flesh, hell and everything associated with Satans lessor kingdom of rebellion perse he is trying to build which I could see this perspective fleshed out in Romans. Plus eschatology has long been a much debated topic that since the church existed has had no consensus. I'm sure alot of folks here believe in the rapture and the left behind series stuff. You seem to have a very reformed shaped view of the atonement which again, is one biblical perspective. I hope you reach out to the brother and seek clarity.
As an adult who suffers from ADHD and a learning disability I read my scriptures but I really love the Bible projects illustrations and the way they can break it down to my understanding 🤍
You are taking this one video, watching it with your assumptions, and twisting what you think he teaches into it. He doesn’t teach a metaphorical hell and he very much is strong on God’s wrath. He takes the atonement seriously.
The maker of this video supported his statements with scripture. If you're going to disagree with his examination of Tim Mackie's message, would you consider using scripture too? Reminding us that Mackie is a Hebrew scholar should not stop us from examining his message based on the Bible which is readily available to us all, learned and unlearned. This is sadly what's wrong about trusting a man too much over the Word of God.
The bible project is where i started my journey to Jesus. God bless the Bible Project and all the people who have found a better way to Christ thru their platform
This is an inaccurate assessment of what was originally taught in that lesson. I would suggest everyone go watch the original video and come to your own conclusions.
I disagree, I've seen that sermon in its entirety and I think his words are being twisted right now. These are sound bites out of context. And as far as heaven, his view is biblical based on the scriptures. From the Old Testament to the new there is far more emphasis on dwelling in a remade and renewed Earth forever then there is on leaving Earth and living in heaven. The end of Revelations says we will come back down and dwell in a new earth. Jesus taught that the kingdom was here, and that the meek will inherit the earth. What Tim is saying is the same thing that Christ was saying, is that it begins now. Our resurrected life begins now that's bible. We are the salt of the earth, temples of the Holy Spirit and the way we live should bring faint hints of Heaven to Earth, that's bible. The overlapping of Heaven and Earth is a theme woven through the entire scripture from Eden , to Jacob's dream, the tent of meeting, the temple, they were all hints at who and what was to come, and is still to come again. That's his context, and it is completely biblical. P.S I am truly uncomfortable with this distinction, separation, and alienation that some Christians are treated with by others based on their views on issues that are deemed to be social issues. What does that even mean? Are social issues not human issues? It's an issue of repentance sir. What does loving your neighbor look like and should that not matter to a Christian in a quote on quote Christian Nation that has been built on slavery and oppression? God himself had much to say about slavery and oppression, the prophets gave rebuke after rebuke because of how the people of Israel became like the other nations, not just serving other gods, but how they treated the poor and the oppressed. Justice issues, social issues, they are human issues, I don't see the disconnect. To me it's honestly harder not to see the connection with these issues and the gospel of the Kingdom, Jesus's Gospel, then it is to see it. And furthermore, there are many Brown brothers and sisters who are walking away from the faith or rejecting it all together because of dishonest depictions of Christ and also atrocities done using his name and distorting his word. Do we just let them be doomed because it's too much work to move the stumbling blocks out of the way? There is much to be done and it starts in house. When the particular social issue is in line with God's standard where is the push back coming from? Is racism Godly? I would hope that you think not. So why would speaking or standing against it be wrong in any way??? We need to ask ourselves where is the pushback really coming from? Because to me it's only logical to be against these things if you claim to be a Christian.
He is a Hebrew and Old Testament scholar. Hebrew Old Testament guys read the bible in an ancient context. His concepts of heaven and hell are coming from ancient and early first century Jewish beliefs. There is tons of peer reviewed Biblical Scholarship on every issue he talks about. He does not down play hell, he does not down play heaven. Sin is very serious in their videos. Its the reason Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood, they never downplay that either. They talk repeatedly about The Day of The LORD when God will once and for all judge all sin and wickedness! None of what he teaches is heresy. Do Christians all have to be a part of the same tradition or denomination!?!
The Pharisees were also the #1 Bible scholars of there day. I don’t know enough About the situation to make a decision I just wanted to point this out.
If this isn’t heretical then what is it? Does seriously make me question the platform as a whole. He has millions of followers on the internets largest site. I do hope there isn’t anything sinister or wicked behind his work and simply an error which we can and do all make. My main concern with the teaching on hell is that it waters down what Jesus did for us. He literally died. Why? To save us. From what? From hell? To say hell is something we have created is not Biblical and totally contradicts God’s Word. Thanks for your work on this brother. May God continue to bless you.
I have questioned the hell metaphor also but after watching and learning a lot from Bible Project and TM, I think a lot of this may have been taken out of context. Tim has others sermons where he speaks about the wrath of God. TM speaks a lot about sin in his preaching. He also teaches restoration and God’s goodness superseding any sin or evil the world can offer.
Not out of context. Mackie literally states in a podcast that hell is place of mercy and grace where those that choose to live apart from God can do so. That’s counter to the Gospel; how do we measure our gain in Christ if nothing is truly at stake?
It also could be growth. It’s important to be discerning in all things, though. I like the Bible project and it’s made me more orthodox on the Eucharist, for instance. I don’t know how orthodox I am on the subject of God’s wrath either. However, there are a lot of alarm bells in this particular talk that scream he’s wrong on this.
@@kevinjobe2078 so having an existence apart from God - the only true source of life and human flourishing - means there is nothing at stake? And there needs to be something at stake for someone to love God? I think that the idea Mackie is trying to convey is that God is showing mercy to unbelievers by respecting their choice to not choose him, but existence apart from God will result it pain, torment and ultimately death.
I have some minor problems with the implications of Tim's theology myself (many of the same that you have) and I'm also a teacher and think it's important for teachers to be careful about what they say, but I think this critique is unhelpful and that it helps to increase the misuse of the word "Heresy". I also think it, potentially, encourages a type of divisiveness among believers that isn't warranted given the critiques offered. There are a couple of basic errors in this critique and they mostly have to do with IMPLICATION (what you feel someone is alluding to or implying) versus EXPLICATION (what particularly a person is saying, regardless of what allusions or implications it brings to mind for the listener). "The way he makes it seem is that Hell is not that bad of a place..." is what you said at 18:50, for example. But, nowhere ever has Tim ever said that. This is an example of implication. It would be easier to label his view heretical if he had said what you said, but he didn't. Tim has talked about how bad Hell is and, like most seminary professors, he is careful not to use absolutes. He says, "Whatever Hell is..." in order to create room for theological distinction about the specifics of Hell. He acknowledges, with the scriptures, that Hell is devoid of God's goodness, is a place for people in rebellion towards God to experience the rewards of their rebellion etc. He holds to all of the biblical imperatives, he just differs in how he expresses the details. As you say throughout the whole video, you're critiquing what the implications of what he said might be. You mention how he's making "light" of hell. But he doesn't think he's doing that. Really what he's doing is he's talking about hell differently from how you or I might talk about it, and that difference worries us. And because it's different, it's easy to put on to him that's making light of it. But he maintains that Hell is every bit as bad as the scriptures say it is. That's not the same thing as making light of it. I think this video could have done all of the same things so long as it labeled what your fears are versus what he's actually articulated.
I agree with you completely my brother, it's the word choices he seems to be having issues with. I think he believes Tim is being too figurative but I'm too sure what exactly is Tim view on hell or even heaven.
@@simonlawrence7994 Agreed. To give him as much charity as possible, I think Tim's mistake is he's trying to push back against a wooden archetype of Hell and Heaven and he's not doing enough work to help the average listener understand what he's NOT saying. Which is why I think the critique of this video COULD be helpful, if it were to focus more on that reality rather than going all the way to saying he's preaching heresy. I'm in seminary and this is exactly what my professors do all of the time. They hate the overly simplistic, neat, theological ideas that exist in the Church because they know enough about the scriptures to recognize a lot of those wooden archetypes lead to unhelpful ideas about other important parts. The difference is, in a seminary class, you can ask the teacher exactly what he means and doesn't mean. You get clarity. And, if Tim is like any of the professors I've known, he's probably just suffering from his own knowledge. He know so much about the scriptures and he's so secure in his own sense of orthodoxy that he doesn't recognize that when he says something unusual that other people are going to run all the way to the bank with it. What I can say is that the average, orthodox, Old Testament PhD does not heavily disagree with Tim; at the least they wouldn't call it heresy. At most, they disagree with his metaphors. He's not saying anything unheard of in most seminaries in America, even if not everyone agrees.
Tim Mackie has helped millions truly understand the biblical story. Maybe we should ask the question, is our ‘doctrines’ watertight as we make them out to be? Mackie is drawing on tens, if not hundreds, of scholars for his work at the Bible Project. Have you engaged with them too, and concluded their teaching is heretical?
Well, "heretical" is a charged term. I'm a Christian, but I acknowledge that my beliefs are "heretical" according to many mainline denominations. Heretical simply means I believe differently than a certain denomination believes. I don't believe the bread and wine are more than symbolic, which is heresy to Catholics and many others. Heresy does NOT mean bad, evil, or wrong. It means I don't agree with that church doctrine. I'm still a follower of Jesus. I don't believe that all Christians must believe the same doctrines. We can still work together and love each other. Forcing everyone to believe the same doctrines caused a lot of torture and death in the middle ages.
@@langreeves6419 Heresy, in greek, means "to divide". So, technically, anything that needlessly divides the body of Christ is heresy. And any person who needlessly engages in that behavior is a heretic. Clearly, people can go too far and end up in places of false teaching and demonic doctrine but those things are spelled out pretty well in the scriptures. Having a nuanced view of hell that is barely left of center in comparison to the average OT scholar is not heresy.
@@langreeves6419 Yeah, fair enough, I understand what you are getting at. But the way you have used the words 'heresy' and 'heretical' is not the same as this video. This video equates heresy to being wrong, unless I am mistaken. I mean, just scroll down and read some of the comments people are making... And accordingly, I have used this understanding in my own comment, if that makes sense? Essentially, my question is, Tim Mackie follows numerous scholars with his theology around heaven and other various topics, so does that make those scholars wrong (sub out heretical) too?
The Bible Project has done wonders for Christian’s pursuing their relationship with Jesus - nothing but praise for Pastor Mackie and the great works he’s been doing.
when he said "sadistic" I felt like he was chanlleging God to a moralaty battle.. kinda like new age talk.. I love the Bible project channel but this is strange
Very new age. What's alarming also is I've heard ATHEISTS describe God and salvation the way he describes it, which is odd considering he's an alleged believer. No way should a skeptic and a Christian's view of God sound similar.
This is not an accurate representation of what Mackie believes. Is this the first time you watched this video as you were recording this? How many of The Bible Project videos and podcasts have you listened through? Just curious. How you are representing Mackie’s beliefs in this video is inaccurate. And to compare him to Joel Osteen is kind of outrageous. I’ve watched the exact video of him that you played and Mackie is not saying hell doesn’t exist and throughout the whole of his work in the Bible Project, he does not downplay the wrath of God and sin.
Matt. 25:41 ““Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” 1. Prepared (Grk.-hetoimazo) verb, to make ready or make arrangements; kept in readiness for the hour and day namely, predetermined by God.
I listened to this video because I wanted to know what the full argument was. In the end it felt like the main complaint was that because Tim doesn't preach in an old-school hellfire and brimstone style then his teaching is heretical (edited for clarity). Tim does often (not alway) approach hard issues softly but fairly. Teaching can slowly slip, but having watched his recent material they are accurate to my other biblical learning. I plan to listen to the full sermon (which wasn't linked that I could see) to gain a balanced view.
At about the 2:30 mark Corey clearly states that neither Tim nor the Bible Project is or are heretics. Tim is clearly wrong in his view of Hell and the Atonement. That needs to be stated and Corey does
@@seventhheaven535 Ok, fair point I wasn't quite accurate, it's the teaching that he says is heretical, at least he does (or heavily implies) so later on. I've found the sermon on atonement but not yet found where he discusses hell so I don't have a full picture of what Tim's description is yet. The description of atonement as paying the cost to cover sin seems accurate enough.
Honestly, Tim is one of the best out there, and Bible Project is so well made. Take a look around, everyone tries to get a piece of the success Tim has had, but he got it by being great at what he does, not by posting videos about other teachers. Tim’s name led me to this video, and I won’t leave without saying that his quality and personality as well as his knowledge and content deserves much more than what I saw in this critique. The church was divided from the moment it began, look to the Holy Spirit for understanding and try to create valuable content, stop the gossip, stop the criticism upon fragments taken out of context… these very things have threatened Christianity as a whole since the time of the Pharisees, really, just look to making your own content in honor of our God and speak only what is helpful for building others. James 4:11 “do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it”. Praise the LORD, stop the slander!
I’ve watched many of Tim Mackie’s videos, and he’s definitely not preaching a “soft” God. In his other videos, he definitely mentions God’s wrath … but here he’s preaching about God’s mercy to us by taking out His wrath upon His only begotten Son. But Tim is also doing it in an educational way that allows unbelievers to grasp the Good News more easily; I think he’s doing his assigned duty of winning souls for the Kingdom.
I think Tim’s point though isn’t that God won’t punish us for our misdeeds - through “hell”- but that as Christians we can’t scare people into belief. Fear is the tool of the adversary, God offers us unconditional Love, and it’s embodied fully in Jesus and all his words, he doesn’t need to threaten us with hell and the fear of torment to force us to love him. Fear of God is a healthy respect for the fact that he has given us free will and if we make a bad choice he will allow us to suffer the consequence and learn the lesson. Fear of God is not fear that forces us to Love him but a fearful respect for the awe-some power this creator holds and the benevolence he wields it with. When we threaten non-Christians with hell we push them further away from God - we are no longer spreading the good word- even if WE KNOW they’re actions could result in their damnation we don’t bring them to salvation and the Love of God by inducing fear. Choosing to “love” god because of Fear is not true love and not a true faith, it’s just predatory manipulation.
I’m glad so many people are engaging with critically thinking about teachings and it’s enlightening to see such a range of viewpoints. I’m also quite surprised at how many of us assume we’re right while pointing at where we believe others are wrong. For generations humanity has believed itself to be the most learned and wise generation, yet the next inevitably comes to pass with the same belief.
@@fuenti99 You make a good point. I hope to be self aware enough to know I’m probably not entirely right either, but maybe I’m wrong about that too, who knows😂
BEST ADVISE: “Never read a Bible verse” You can make a single Bible verse say just about anything without reading the WHOLE context of the chapter, looks like you can also make a video of video clips say just about anything, Leaves me pondering the whole context in Tim Mackie’s video.
Both teachers have excellent points. What all people need is a multi-facetted understanding of God's provision for atonement. Problems arise when one facet is the focus. We need John 3:16 and John 15:5-6
I started following the Bible project early on, and gotta say it blessed me a lot. I still think their overviews of the different books are incredibly helpful, and even my kids love watching them. Really helped me get back the overall context and flow of arguments and not just see them as "verse soup". BUT.... when I started watching Tim's actual teachings (especially this one), ugh. What a let-down. Yet another really cool Christian project that has to be tainted by some kind of warped spin on the gospel. Why is it so many Bible teachers think they have to come up with some novel approach to basic doctrines that have been thoroughly hashed out over two millennia?
I think a trap that all Christians (including me) can fall into is thinking we need big answers to big questions. Sometimes, deep study and thinking will help when reading the Bible. But so often I see people are too eager to expand on what we know and tie it to something seemingly deeper when all we need to do is read God’s Word and truly accept what He is saying.
@@jerico80 He didn’t add nor take away from Scripture, but only pointed out that ECT is completely unbiblical, which it is. “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” God alone is immortal, and immortality is a conditional upon being in Christ. The wicked and unrepentant will be destroyed after being punished in Hell for a “time within a time.” There are well over 100 Scriptures which speak to the total and final destruction of the lost, while only a few proof texts are used in support of ECT in Hell, most coming from the middle chapters of Revelation, the least literal in all of Scripture, by far. Neither Paul nor any other apostle in any epistle ever once mentions nor warns of ECT in Hell. In Acts no one is ever once warned of ECT in Hell. That would be the worst oversight in the history of the world if ECT in Hell is true as the RCC established as a tradition. Jesus paid the wages of our sins by dying, and in rising again, conquering the power of sin and death, the first fruits of the promised inheritance, eternal life. God guarded the Tree of Life specifically so that Adam and Eve would not become immortal. In Revelation Jesus says “To the one who conquers, I will grant to eat of the fruit from the Tree of Life which is in the paradise of God.”
@@jerico80 Let’s start one at a time. Where their worm does not and their fire is not quenched is in quotes, because Jesus is quoting Isaiah. It’s Isaiah 66:24. Please read the verse and notice it’s a scene of absolute destruction, not conscious torment. Everyone is dead, not suffering. It’s a picture of complete destruction. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with unquenchable fire. Are they still burning? No. Please look at the Scripture and get back to me.
@@jerico80 Did you read the verse from Isaiah? It’s very clearly a picture of complete destruction. They’re dead, not in torment. Who is quoting who isn’t the point. Let’s assume Isaiah is quoting Jesus. The verse still very clearly speaks of dead bodies, not anyone suffering conscious torment. “Rather fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Hell.” There’s nothing in either that suggest conscious torment, but exactly the opposite. It’s all based on very poor exegesis and the traditions of men. Look, if you’re just trying to uphold your preconceived views instead of actually studying Scripture, I don’t expect you to listen to me if you’re not going to trust what Scripture clearly states. The verse from Isaiah is referencing dead bodies, not people being tormented. And, again, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with unquenchable fire. Are they still burning? No. Unquenchable fire is fire that cannot be stopped and will be consumed entirely, just as Sodom and Gomorrah were an example of those who would suffer the punishment of everlasting fire. “But the wicked will perish; the enemies of the LORD are like pastures; they vanish; like smoke they vanish away.” Psalm 37:20 There’s well over 100 verse which speak clearly of the complete and final destruction of the lost. Are you aware that Scripture is clear that God alone has immortality?
That's why not all should be teachers ... I like the Bible project itself but some things did caught my attention(thank God for discernment) . Can't water down the Gospel . Love the video Corey
I wrote Bible Project personally to see if they've really gone progressive/woke and sure enough, I'm so saddened by what they replied. I straight up asked them, "Does your team agree with the Biblical truth that marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman?" And Christopher skirted around it replying with a woke answer that indeed their mission is more important than the mission of the Bible. Christopher of Bible Project said, "We don't have a published position on this particular issue, as we intentionally refrain from commenting on issues outside of the scope of our organization's mission." Issues outside their mission??? We are not called as believers to pick and choose which portions of the Bible we teach. If the Bible Project is about the Bible, then your beliefs should courageously line up with the Bible without shame. This is why the gospel is being watered down and people are leaving the church, because ministries are driven by fear of pleasing all people to advance their personal missions instead of fearing God foremost. So sad. Christians, be courageous, stand for truth without shame. Today's culture needs it more than ever!
Man, that's discouraging... I used to love listening to Tim, but something just felt off to me. I guess I inadvertently made the right call to quit drinking their particular flavor of Kool Aid
I have not yet listened to any of the Bible Project yet. I was led there by a friend. I saw this video and decided to listen first. From an outsider, can I just say what I got from their response? Maybe they felt like the question was attempting to lead them into a debate on choosing a side in a social justice cause and they didn't want to be brought into a cause rather than just wanting to stick to Jesus? I could be wrong because I haven't listened to them yet but that was just my initial thought in trying to help bring understanding to something that you seemed to enjoy previously.
This was a total misrepresentation of Mackie’s views. I know for a fact Tim believes heaven is a real place. He’s gone into great length on it in videos on the BP channel. One thing he is simply big on teaching is the reuniting of heaven AND earth. Which is literally the whole point of the Bible. It’s the end goal. For Gods will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. For the kingdom of God to come near. For there to be a new Eden. New creation. It’s why the city of Jerusalem comes down from heaven, in the new earth. There forever, we will live in harmony with our savior Jesus Christ, and God our father. It’s not just earth and it’s not just heaven, it’s both. So many Christian’s have this false idea that we are going to be sucked up and just live in heaven forever.
You need to teach a lesson on hell and heaven. It would be interesting to hear your explanation of our faith concerning heaven, hell and eternity, the purpose for our faith and the ultimate goal of the father. You should also talk more about reconciliation to the Father. You are actually exaggerating Tim's opinion on the atonement. I actually believe he agrees with the sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice. He is saying that there is more to the story than just being saved from the wrath of God. That is not the only reason for the sacrifice. You should look a little deeper. I totally disagree with you.
They are eternally separated from God and exist in a state of torment, which he clearly teaches in the video “Isn’t the of hell just plain mean?” There is no gotcha question for Tim. This commentary video isn’t based on facts.
I really appreciate your presentation and I am thankful for your discussion and opinion. I too was shocked when I first listened to Tim Mackie's video "Compelled: Speaking and Living the Gospel" from which you showed excerpts. However, there are parts you left out that really compelled me to study and get to the bottom of this message. Key moments you didn't show are important to his video and provide the full scope of his message. One of those missing moments that captured my attention was when he stated how the version of salvation (which I grew up on) is mostly all about ME not God. He also referred to Mark 1 to define what the "Good News" means. His point which he made pretty clear is that the Bible doesn't dwell on hell. The entire Bible is about God and how after humanity repeatedly sins (and there are some AWFUL sins shared in the Bible) God has to repeatedly exile his people from his presence because of sin. Yet, it's God who also repeatedly forgives and chooses to draw us back to him. The ultimate moment is at the Crucifixion. The point of his message is that God's repeated insistence on saving us is the focus and compelling story of the Bible. I don't think he's making light of Hell (he uses James 3:6 to show that we do unleash Hell here and now). He's making a specific point about God. That story of God begins with Genesis 1-3 which mirrors Revelation 21. Creation begins the story and ends the story where we live in peace and the goodness of God presence. Everything in the middle between those chapters is about God and his plan to mend a relationship with humanity that humanity continually destroys. However, for those who chose to NOT believe, the Bible doesn't dwell on them. I think that's what Tim Mackie is sharing. He's saying that the message of the Bible is a compelling story to share with nonbelievers because God is compelling (Exodus 34:6-7) and that's the story of the Bible
You getting eaten up for this one... He is one of the good ones. Clickbait and intentional controversy like this is a dangerous place to be when trying to pursue unity and biblical literacy.
After watching this video, it didn't seem like Tim believes there is no torment in hell, he was pushing back at the idea that God is the one torturing them because he's angry. There is torment in hell, but it comes from the consequences of humanities choices, a choice to live a life separate from God. Hell is granting that choice in an eternal format, a life forever apart from God. If all good things come from God, obviously a life away from God is full of all the bad things, meaning torment. This is not an active punishment as much as it is a passive consequence. When we say choice, it's not that you get to the pearl gates and God asks you were you want to go, but your entire life on earth was you making that choice. If Jesus says he does not know you, that is not because Jesus chose not to know you. God has righteous anger, wrath, towards the sin that has separated Him from His children. Hell is the containment of those things and the embodiment of his wrath. Choosing sin means choosing that place. You also completely misrepresented his view on heaven. His point is that a life serving God should not begin when we get to heaven, especially since we have been given a great commission here on Earth. As Christians, we don't praise and worship and serve God because there's a reward at the end. We do those things because of who God is and what he has already done for us, because the life we have is already more than we deserve. His point is a discouragement from the saying "too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good". Building his kingdom on earth is part of our mission to make Him known to all corners and people of the earth. This reinforces, rather than diminishes, Jesus' sacrifice because it encourages us to join into the mission by "picking up our cross daily" in service ti His kingdom. Building the earthly kingdom is the exact same as building the heavenly kingdom because we are helping add souls to that number. It is a more communal view of our faith than a selfish one only focused on our reward. We should love God whether or not there was a reward.
Many here argue Tim is a scholar. Many competent scholars have been wrong, atheists, or heretical in their personal application of Scripture in the past. At the end of the day, we must strive to be diligent in reading and truly leaning on the Holy Spirit to teach us, and hold ourselves accountable to Him. In my honest opinion, I think many people are unwilling to face the reality that God has wrath, has an expectation of holiness of us, and He will shed the blood of the armies in Armageddon. And many people are going to draw the line there when Jesus comes back. I think in the greatest rebellion at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ, many who see God as one-sided, all-loving, will hate him and the iron rod he rules by because they cannot see how justice and wrath are a product of real love. We know that judges on earth love and can have mercy, but they also enact the wrath of justice.
this is one of the many issues I believe plagues modern churches, and is/has/will seep into the "social media space" you have a person, pouring their understanding of their point of view of the Bible, God and Jesus and no one there to correct, rebuke them in the moment. This is why in my opinion discipleship is so important... Thanks for taking the time to go through this and I know just from some videos that you are open to correction, or discussion as we all should be.
At around 19:12, this video says that "if all Hell is" is the complete absence of God then that's "just not as nice". Uhhhh, the eternal permanent separation from the source and definition of all light, life, love, and any other goodness is the worst thing I can imagine. Martyrs have been tortured to death because union with Christ outweighs any pain and suffering we can experience. It's not torture that makes hell horrifying and unbearable. It's the total absence of God. Not even common grace. Note that the rich man never repents or begs for forgiveness. He just wants relief. He doesn't want God anymore than he did in life. If what makes heaven heaven for you is the niceness of it, the amenities, and not the presence of God, then I don't think you're going to like the New Heaven and Earth very much.
I think Tim Mackie has a rudimentary understanding of Conditional Immortality, which is supported throughout Scripture. Revelation 20:14, both death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire. Chris Date has a podcast/YT channel, "Rethinking Hell." It's a very strong doctrine. God bless.
@@a.pearce8820 true but not everyone knows that. There is no real description of what hell is. That it is a place of torment. It is not on earth, it is an actual place that a person can actually go. It's CLEAR in the scripture. What that guy said was completely made up. It sounds dumb in my opinion, but only because I KNOW THE TRUTH. Search the scripture if you don't understand. But anyhow, he made hell sound less than what it really is.
Thanks for pointing these things out. I definitely don't like his tone towards a few important issues. He sounds like he might be deconstructing a bit.
If you listen to Dr. Tim Mackie he uses different vernacular. It's that way of speaking that has made the bible make more sense to many. He also follows patterns throughout the scriptures that has repetitive 'themes' that ultimately prove time and time again that Jesus is Lord! Be blessed and maybe address concerns after listening to more podcasts. Conversating that occurs in those sessions brings up questions that we have had but never come up in regular church study settings.
‘herasy’ is only an appropriate term if you are Roman Catholic and think Bible Project is deviating from officials RCC doctrine. which i doubt you are. it’s ok to disagree, but terms like ‘heresy’ are historically used to character assassinate, excommunicate, and even murder ‘heretics’. i don’t understand why you made this about Bible Project and not about a theological topic(s) that is legitimatly debatable. i just find this video unnecessarily divisive which detracts from any legitimate arguments you might be making. i didn’t catch where you thought those watching Bible Project would somehow not come to salvation because of these ‘heresies’ whereas if they were corrected then someone/many would accept the gospel to be saved.
Errr, not if it isn't preaching the true gospel or if it is mocking God. Yeah, it sometimes has good content, but the teachings mentioned here are just plain deceitful and dangerous.
I have watched other videos like this that criticize Tim Mackie and the Bible Project. It seems what these videos have in common is that the speakers fail to see how their particular interpretation of the scripture is shaped by their own cultural and theological assumptions. One must be able to step out of their own frame of reference to objectively assess their own view as well the views of others. Having lived in 9 different countries in 4 continents, I have learned that many of the doctrine and theology that I have taken for granted as absolute truths most of my life were actually based on tradition and cultural interpretation of the scriptures. It’s not that they were necessary wrong, but that they were just one of many ways of looking at the scriptures and understanding the gospel. You may disagree with Mackie’s interpretation of heaven and hell, but his teachings are not heretical. They are in line with the gospel and scripturally sound. “In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.”
I boycotted the Bible Project years ago. He (Tim) leans to his own understanding (distorting the truth) - he does not rightly divide the Word of God. Warning to all: Flee from this ''Tim Project'.
Hi brother I have a question maybe you can answer. I was reading in Revelation this morning in 2nd chapter . I know we have eternal life permanently but why in verse 7 does it say to him who overcomes will eat from the tree of life? It says that in a few places in the 2nd chapter.
The word for overcomes or conquers is the word νικῶντι , which is an active participle. So a good way to read or understand it is "To all of you who are overcoming or conquering, you all will eat of the tree of life". It's just affirming what they have in store for them
No. The same root word νικάω but not the same tense and therefore not the same meaning. Words matter. so to do the tense, mood, voice, case endings, declensions, etc.
They (we) are called the "the overcoming ones" or "the ones that are overcoming", and thus will not end up in Hell. All Christians are the overcoming ones. Don't confuse the professing Christians with the Possessing Christians who are "overcomers"
@@smartchristians 3 years ago after reading Jeremiah 33:3 and a result of prayer the Father opened the salvation doctrine to me like never before the previous 27 years. Including 1 John 3:8-9 which always tripped me up.. But now I have been set free from religion, have found my rest , and enjoying a much better relationship with God ... That being said there are verses that appear to contradict our blessed assurance ..Someone needs to do a translation that clears this up for everyone and removes confusion for immature or new Christians. Thanks brother and God bless ...I have been directing people on you tube to your channel so they can get straight on their doctrine concerning salvation ....
The Bible project gave me a clear insight to some of the chapters in the Bible, but why is it that watching him on that stage seem very awkward, like he’s challenging the Lord, almost in a mocking way? It doesn’t sit right with me.
Paul said that "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." Because ALL of us can only TRY to understand God's message but can never truly tell the 100 percent truth. Who's to say that there is or there is no hell? Has anyone gone there and came back? Everything that we know and see, are only a reflection of what is to come. NOBODY can say that this is the 100 perfect truth, or fact. So, who are we to say or label people as false teachers? Are we really the bearers of truth? Do we know everything? That's why Paul is encouraging us to just be faithful, and LIVE in LOVE because that is Jesus' true message. Instead of criticizing each other and judging, and condemning, let's just practice love. "If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." So, if there is one truth that we must know and uphold as Jesus believers, it is LOVE.
8:25 I sense a lack of humility here. To assume "atonement" in the scriptures refers to PSA because you already are convince PSA is necessary is eisegesis. The scripture given doesn't say anything about a penalty or payment or punishment. In fact, it is making a connection between life and blood. The animal is substitution but it isn't being "punished."
This video is very helpful. I was listening full of doubt and a hard heart because I listen to The Bible Project all the time. But this video is correct. The Bible Projecy does not speak about hell. I just checked. (Hence the comparison to Tim Olsen) Jesus did come to pay our sin debt, so that we have a relationship with God and to ultimately allow us to go the heaven and not hell. Thank you Lord for showning me that I have been lazy and allowed myself to be fed by others rather than your word. I need to do better and feed myself with your word rather than expecting others to feed me. in Jesus' name. Amen ❤❤❤
What I like about the Bible Project is that it doesn't rubbish other people's theology and recognises there are theologies. There are multiple views of the atonement... but of course... everyone wants to say their understanding is the right and only one.
By looking at your video I don’t think you have watched the entirety of the Bible Project and understood Mackie’s position. I think you’re picking and choosing things out of context.
I've listened enough to bible project to be able to follow along and you haven't told me anything I haven't learned via the Bible project. I think it's great that they are getting the discussion going, there is reflection, and they most certainly encourage you to read the text yourself and join the discussion. Consider focusing on biblical scriptures as a discussion, rather than criticizing those who are doing just that.
1. The only person in the whole bible who goes to heaven is Jesus. And we are expecting him to return. The bible ends in a garden on earth, not in heaven. 2. The Bible never claims "God poured out his wrath on Christ" or anything to that effect. He didn't die in your place or suffer in your place either. That is why we are employed to both die with him, take up our cross and bear the reproach. We are expected to suffer with Christ. What is wrong is Calvinism and the Vicarious Penal Atonement theory. It just seems heretical because you have been indoctrinated. And no, Isaiah 53 does not mention wrath even once and nothing in Isaiah 53 contradicts the statements I made. Also, consider, "Christ died for you." Similarly, a soldier can die for you. That doesn't mean the soldier dies in your place. If you think Christ died for you therefore you are saved and go to heaven, what does it mean when it says "Christ died for sin" will sin be going to heaven? The phrase "Christ died for you." does not have to mean in your place.
Allen Parr was speaking on this, I want to hear your take on it. I can’t remember what brother Parr said about it but I’m sure it’s the same issues. Thank you for teaching us to be smart Christians. Because I am getting more mature in my faith but I know need more understanding every time I think I know it all God reminds me nope you don’t lol ❤
I love the bible project, I love Tim's approach to the bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus. I love his Hebrew and greek brakdowns of the orginal text, Tim simplifies it to where you dont have to be scholar of ancient hebrew or greek to firmly understand what the books are trying to convey, my biggest issues with the bible project is that, and this is my opinion, they dont encourage having or point out the importance of having a personal relationship with Jesus, dont get me wrong ive seen them talk about it, i thinknit should be brought up more on their platform, but that ultimately me being a critic.
Id say if people are pointed out about the bible that its not scary. Jesus will move people to read the word themselves. The Bible project leads people to Jesus and Jesus will for sure change a person.
org sources are in Arameic and Hebrew BOTH of which Tim studies and can speak quite a bit of Hebrew. Not to mention THE ONLY thing that can truly interpret scripture is Jesus and the Holy Spirit which Jesus himself points out to His disciples. Start using the Strong's Thesaurus and will give you what the word was in scripture and also the meaning of the word. You will get insight. Then let God reveal. "John 16:13 NIV But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."
Because of Tim's teachings on hell and what sin is, I cannot support the Bible project at all! It is too important of an issue! I can refute everything Tim said with scripture. He doesn't use scripture in this video. He simply talks about it.
Here is what I think, we will never fully agree on certain things, and there are other things that may be heretical. But does that mean now we don't have fellowship with them? Or in this case, do we stop listening to them altogether?
@@treasurenkhwashu I Can Gleam Off Of Some Of his Teachings, Because The Lord Has Made Me Mature And Is Still Maturing Me, But I Definitely Won't Reference his Channel To Anyone, Especially A Unbeliever And New Believer.
@@kylemanningjcic1333 here is what I'm saying, if me and you disagree on one issue, let's say the tribulation and if believers will go through it or not, if you are wrong on that but we agree on almost everything else does it mean I should tell people not to listen to you?
@@kylemanningjcic1333 that's not the point we are talking about.... The issue is if I'm wrong about one thing, does that mean people should not be listening to me altogether?
Thank you Brother Corey for this. I saw this about him on another channel as well concerning his teaching. I like The Bible Project and they do a lot of good work. But this is concerning.
Around 6:35 when he said "Who does that remind you of." I was gonna say a young N.T. Wright, and then he showed a clip of Joel Osteen. Tim and Joel are not similar at all.
Hey brother Corey I would like to thank you for being a light in these dark times. I have an unrelated question. My question is about Roman's chapter 1. I do my best not to try to conform today's cultural ills to just one passage in the Bible because if we do that we can make the Bible say something that it doesn't. I don't know if that makes any sense. However, when I read Roman's 1, I can't help but to see parallels with what's going on today with what Paul talks about in verses 18 -32. Was Paul speaking prophetically as well as to that current time? What's your thoughts on this. Thanks.
Hi! I’m not Corey but wanted to just drop some two cents! Hebrews 13:8 says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Jesus is God and the Bible is God’s word to us. So since he is the same yesterday, today and forever I believe the answer to your question at the end would be both. The culture back then and the culture now. Hope this helps (:
Thank you for posting this. I kept feeling like something was off with them but I couldn't put my finger on what it was. Their explanations are not classic Bible explanations. I thought their video on the Tree of Life and The Divine Council were odd.
Just because it’s “odd” doesn’t make it unscriptural.. i really love the way Tim challenges some traditional teachings by really breaking down what the scripture says
Gosh, I love you as a brother in Christ trying to make sure people have good and sound teaching, but as many others have already said I think you have missed the nuances of Tim's points and there wasn't a lot of allowing for his full discussion to flesh that out. I deeply believe that both he and you have a similar depth of understanding the weight of sin and the need to be cleansed and if you really try to see his points from the perspective that he understands that He'll is bad enough that it needs to be expelled it does line up with all of the disagreement you have with him. It's frustrating to see people label anyone like this through just a video format with being able to speak to one another as brothers, but assuming heresy and telling people away from this without that is akin to accusing someone in your own counsel. At the very least two or three and the man who is accused before you can proclaim that kind of sound judgement with potentially appearing foolish yourself for whenever the man in question could exonerate himself by being heard and understood. And if something truly were out of line, which I still don't see as the case, how could it be corrected otherwise? This seems ruthless and slanderous from one christian against another who is truly seeking and trying to understand a very difficult, deep, and beautiful, good news.
Whatever is only almost true is quite false, and among the most dangerous of errors, because being so near truth, it is the more likely to lead astray. - Henry Ward Beecher
These kind of videos continue to blow me away. If you're going to cover someone else's teachings learn what they are actually teaching. Take the time to do the research. Tim Mackie never denies substitutionary atonement. Do the research before you start tearing down someone's teaching.
I used to watch the channel Bible project faithfully but when you actually break it down like this, it gives you a different perspective of how so many are being deceived. Thank you brother for this eye opener.
I think a lot of politically conservative believers like myself hear Tim and hear what he talks about, and hear him referring to sinfulness as 'brokenness' and they jump to conclusions about his position in the culture and then assume he is approaching the text from a theologically liberal perspective. I suspect Mr. Mackie is not as conservative as I am politically, but this does not mean he is a theological liberal. I am starting to see more and more attitudes in the Church where people are ready to cast out anyone who doesn't fit into an increasingly narrow evangelical purity test. This is starting to go beyond a caution of avoiding obvious heresies. If your trying to convince people that Tim Mackie is a more sophisticated version of Joel Osteen, you are probably painting with too broad of a brush.
Do you understand that christians who reject Penal Substitutionary atonement dont reject the atonement, but your interpretation of the mechanism of the atonement.
As someone who's basically watched and seen everything the Bible Project has made, I'd say some of your criticisms of Tim are good, spot on. Others, just not so good, especially if you're assuming what he's communicating. But anyway. We move!
Well this video has one major flaw, he is only using OLD content and hasn't even brought up anything new or even in Tim's follow-up sermons and podcasts. There was a lot of potential to this but too bad that a lot was thrown away.
It’s weird, because the Bible Project’s teachings and layouts of the books of the Holy Bible still seem to be so blessed and informative. And yet the videos on his sermon channel I never really watched for too long 🤔 Looks like I was lead to dodge some bullets 🤣🥳
To listen to this single individual is to vex your own soul. You might want to look at the entire Body of Work and actually question your western culture Christianity handed down from the off shoot of the Catholic Church! Might be better off rockin with Jesus and and Hebrew Bible.
Great thoughtful video. I agree that Mackie has an outside the traditional view of hell. What I’d like us to consider is that issues such as these have been debated for millennia. On both sides it should be a debate of belief not a statement of factual conclusions. Secondly, is it worth debating? There are many mysteries not explained in the Bible. Would this kind of knowledge be essential to righteous action? My sense is that Mackie finds his interpretation an easier sell to his Portland community. Much easier to adapt the message of the gospel to modern culture than to educate modern culture about profound differences between modern western and ancient eastern culture, context and language which make it very difficult for an American to open a Bible a make sense of it. Finally I’d like to see more humility and less dogma in general. If we consider the numerous theological differences across time and Christiandom there has to be a better way of discernment than western deductive reasoning.
![Genesis: Beginning The Right Story [Q&A] Tim Mackie (The Bible Project)](/img/1.gif)
I was saved in part by watching The Bible Project. It didn’t give me a perfect understanding of The Bible immediately, but it opened my mind and heart to actually want to read it. I think that’s a beautiful thing
I was saved in part but a lady who is very pentacostal and believes u can only have the Holy Spirit by speaking in tongues. She also believes u can lose ur salvation. I don’t believe the same. Just noting that God can use seeds and then u grow as a mature Christian and things change. I followed many things as a new Christian that I don’t follow or watch today, including the Bible project.
@@TheWarriorLV
Great point! I've even heard scholarly book writers say they wish they could re-write previous works, as their beliefs changed since.
That's the main reason I don't write books - that and the fact that i don't know how to write books. ha ha
At the end of the day, it's advisable to keep asking God to keep us away from error no matter who it's coming from. Tim breaks down the Bible really well but all His teachings aren't perfect -- just like all other teachers. That's why we all need to study the Word above all commentaries and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal it to us.
This is a perfect answer
the Holy Spirit always leads us to the Head, which is Christ, and the Body, the members, the believers. Many errors are propagated in Christianity because the believers have not experienced the Body life, a life dependent on others. Independency and individuality in seeking the Spirit without going to other brothers surely lead to our own concepts and possible deviations.
Well said and thank you for saying it
@Ade Kiseu thank you, I was thinking the same thing but didn’t know how to say it.
The Bible Project doesn’t claim to be the Bible itself. It’s not the perfect Word of God. It’s a tool that helps me search and understand the Bible for myself.
If there is Heresy is some of the teachings on this channel then we should point it out and make others aware.
It’s true, even if a vast majority of the channel is on point, but only a small percentage is wrong, then it’s all wrong and we should not support it.
However, each person needs to come to this conclusion on our own. I plan to check out the examples used because some of the videos were edited and I need to make sure for myself before I share this with others.
So, I pray that we will all continue to “search the scriptures daily”, find the facts, do our own research and come to our own conclusions. 🙏🏾
Exactly! Amen sis.
I think you have misunderstood and misrepresented most of what Mr. Mackie was saying in the videos you have shown. He isn't saying there isn't a literal heaven or hell, what is saying is that heaven is here on earth as well, as Jesus proclaimed in Mark 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." (which was in the video you used a clip from.) Since Heaven is where God resides, and we have the Holy Spirit in us, then we participate in bringing Heaven down to earth. In other words, we don't have to die in order to experience God's kingdom. We do have to have a physical death to get a new body. You also misrepresented what he said regarding "sadistic."
He didn't say hell wasn't sadistic, he said God is not sadistically punishing those in hell. He never said heaven and hell are metaphorical, what he is saying that heaven and hell are both here now and coming, just like the Kingdom of God. We can experience a partial now, but the fullness is still to come. Do I agree with everything anyone says, no, including Mr. Mackie, but I also don't try and misrepresent them either. With regards to atonement, the purpose of the videos you took clips from were not not talking about atonement, but rather trying to get people to realize that we can't be closet Christians, (which the title of one of the videos "Compelled: Speaking and Living the Gospel" explains) that through our obedience and allowing God to change our hearts, we don't have to wait until death to experience heaven, or we can go against him and unleash hell on earth through our actions. It's like you tried force these videos into your agenda.
If you wanted to talk about atonement (which in the video reference above, he puts in a clip of a Bible project video that talks about atonement and how the blood "somehow absorbs the sin and creates a clean space where we can enter into God' presence", which basically means it "covers" sin, "cancels" our debt, and "reconciles" us to God. The fact that you didn't even address the one part of the video that Mackie talks about atonement via the Bible Project (which is what this video's title is supposedly about), leads me to think you have some sort of agenda or really didn't watch/pay attention to the video. You could have easily used the actual Bible Project videos about sin and atonement, as well as podcasts and articles. It literally took me two minutes to google search and find them. I suggest to everyone whenever anyone says anything that they go research it for themselves to make an informed decision. It took 1 minute to search youtube to find the video in question and another 44 minutes to watch his whole video. At least watch more than a few minutes of a couple of video before you put out a video pretty much calling someone a heretic. BTW, the alluding that Mr. Mackie and Joel Osteen are similar is weak and I'm assuming is a ploy to sway people to your thoughts regarding Mr. Mackie. Also your title is very misleading at best and completely dishonest at worst, as you attack Mr. Mackie himself and sermons he has said. Yes he is a part of the Bible Project and some of his theology may influence it, but you did not show anyone that is has since you did not use any Bible Project videos in your so called critique of the Bible Project.
Thank you for this comment Jason! I though a lot of what he said was misrepresentation of what Tim Mackie actually believes, preaches and talks about on the bible project videos/ podcast
Well said Jason and agree totally that this video represents a BIG misunderstanding of what The Bible Project and Tim are saying.
Totally Jason! Thanks for making this solid point
Yeah, he totally lost the plot of what Tim said and cuts out specific parts. It sounds like he actually hasn't listened to Tim properly before. In many of Tim's messages he also quoted other Christians who hold the same belief.thr Bible project never just says things but it's always researched and meditated from the Bible.
Yeah. The analysis on this video isn’t close to what Tim teaches.
I have listened to 90% of Tim's teaching and 95% of the Bible Project content and I couldn't disagree more with this video. I am sorry but this is just very wrong. Tim's views are so shaped by scripture. To compare him to Osteen is a gross caricature.
Amen!
To compare him to Joel is completely fair. Fall out of love with Tim and the Bible Project and see that he is making light of Hell and misrepresenting the atonement. Good job Corey!
Have to listen more.
I remember watching that Bible Project video & immediately smelled false teaching.
"Jesus wants to get the he'll out of you".
What? No, Jesus wants to get the sin out of us by freeing us from our slavery to sin so we can be slaves to righteousness!
Hell is not something in us. It's a place created for the devil & his demons, & unfortunately many people will choose to reject God's offer & go there as well.
I agree w/ Corey, most of the BP matera is sound but this isn't!
It’s more fun to participate in Christian takedown culture and perpetuate 200 year old ideas than to apply critical thought and prayerfully consider traditions older than our own.
As Tim Mackie himself said: “what we’re doing is getting off the bus in Jerusalem and looking for the McDonalds.” (I’m paraphrasing something he said on his podcast re: genesis/creation. But it’s an idea that applies here as well)
I am familiar with just about all of Tim’s teachings available on RUclips. I’ve watched maybe 90% of them. I think that the heart of what he is trying to communicate is that if your life has not been changed by the gospel, if you do not desire the kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, if you are not about the work God has given you. If you do not hate your sin and desire to be transformed now…you might not be a Christian.
Yeah I never have seen TM's teachings as something that detracts from the Bible but rather gives you more to think about.
I tend to agree with you but the problem is when you try to infer what someone says that means it’s been left up to both good and bad interpretation. The truth is we know Hell exists and as was stated we know what it’s like. There is also no getting around lake of fire in Revelation. So while I have used gospel project and do believe it does a good job way more than not I would say we must speak clearly and not leave our words on the Bible up for interpretation. Say what you mean… mean what you say
@@dustycoward7615 can you show me where he said hell wasn't a real or bad place?
@@MadebyKourmoulis it’s in this video at about the 12:10 mark he goes into his discussion on Hell
@@dustycoward7615 where he says hell wasn't created on page one? And whatever hell is was created later. This is completely accurate. Can you tell me what verse on the first page of the Bible has the creation account of hell?
Tim is fluent in Hebrew, with a PHD in semantic languages. I didn't say his teachings are perfect, we've gotta test what he says to scripture. the Bible Project is amazing and has helped so many grow their faith.
also, before you talk about the full context of someones teachings, put the full verse of Psalm 46:10 behind you. The irony is astounding brother.
It's a decoration. He's not talking about Psalm 46:10, he's addressing a false teaching
Very interesting!!! Thanks for posting
Yeah but they also spread wokeism so thats evil in and of itself
Nathan Mell
Be careful about using the word “fluent.” Very few theologians are actually fluent. Typically they get their knowledge of original languages from school (seminary), and their expensive personal libraries. It leads laymen into believing their expertise is greater than it is.
@@larrytruelove8659 Good word, but Tim is fluent. I got this info from a collegiate interview where Tim says that he was fluent in reading Hebrew before he went to study at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem for a year.
Hmmm I think what's a the heart of the Bible Project is to get people excited and see that the bible is not as intimidating as they think. One thing I appreciate about the bible project is that it's sparked a HUGE love and interest in reading the Word. They've totally changed the way I see it and read it as as a result I've understood it more. I even lead a bible study group and sometimes I use the videos because a lot of people a visual learners. It's fine if it's not for you but lots of people have really benefitted from TBP
So, did you finish reading it?
"Let me water down the gospel so people become christian" no that's literally evil.
I agree
I absolutely got excited about reading the Bible and understood the bible from this project. However I am willing to be challenged as I KNOW just how insidious the incoming of false teaching into a church, is. In their creation/genesis video. There is no mention of creation of all in 6 days and NO mention of the serpent tempting Eve. I am very willing to learn of Sound biblical understanding for myself through questioning this teaching rather than giving up my questioning because of a ‘clever’ presentation.
@@JCIL-33 water down, bro Tim goes super in-depth on how a lot of scripture connections and might have some wrong theology but overall is extremely accurate, I promise we all have something misunderstood in the Bible we aren't god, is why we will be revealed all these things when we meet him in heaven.
To anyone seeing this, if its alright, please whisper a prayer for me and my family? Truly needed it at this point. 🙏 Been a long and repetitive battle. 💔
Please pray for our total healing, stable source of income and may we finally have a place of our own, its so painful to keep on walking on eggshells in someone else's place, and not knowing when theyll kick us again. 💔 May help finally arrive. 🙏 Thank you and GOD bless. 🙏❤️
@@PleaseViewMyChannel how are we doing today? Thanking God for you and that he continue to protect you, and restore what the locust have eaten. May you forget the former things just has God does about our sins. May he do a new thing in your life today! God bless you!!
@@shellyhoward3060 not doing any better, its worse actually. But gotta keep going because i know this TEST will soon become a testimony. ❤️ Thabk you fot praying. This means so much to me. GOD bless you always. 🙏
I appreciate the Bible Project. It provides answers to some questions that puzzle the normal Christian. Also, it is good practice to read the text for yourself and understand the culture, context, history …
I think you need to take a step back and study the scriptures without looking into what you believe. Be an inquirer. It took Paul 3 years to unlearn what he thought he understood about the Gospel.
After more than 1500 years of catholic dominants in the dark ages, many protestant churches left the Catholic Church with a few of it's beliefs, and to this day Christians hold to Sunday as their Sabbath, a law set up by the Catholic Church. This is why they won in the Council of Trent, because the Reformation was not complete. Today many are returning to Rome
@@nathimagagula1712 Their sabbath, not God’s sabbath. God’s sabbath was never on a Sunday. I wouldn’t trust the Bible Project no more than the vatican and pope. Rome is one of the biggest epicenters of heresy. As many are unfortunately returning, thankfully many have had their spiritual eyes opened and have left as well.
@@nathimagagula1712 Sunday is nort Sabath. Disciples met on the first day of the week to break bread, especially among the gentiles. In Jerusalem, the breaking of bread was done in the homes. No day, in particular, was prominent. Take your own advice and take a step back. Reexamine history and read or listen to many authors. It is impossible not to have a bias or tendency but some are more objective than others. God gave us members of the body that can help us understand better the truth. Without the truth, we cannot experience Christ and much less enjoy Him as our grace and life supply. God's intention is not merely to have sound teaching but that Christ becomes our all. (Galatians 2:20; 4}:19 / Ephesians 3:16-19 / Colossians 3:16 / 1Corinthians 6:17; 15::10)
@@AfroCentauri There is still a Sabbath remaining for God's people /Hebrews). Listen to the radio archive Life-Study of Hebrews and get the NT recovery version. Ths real Sabbath is Christ Himself. Now as a period of time the millennial will be a Sabbath even a Jubilee on Earth. The consummated and total Sabbath will be the New Jerusalem, The purpose of the Sabbath is that God becomes our resting place and the peace as a result of being reconciled to Him. This is the real grace.
@@nathimagagula1712 along with pagan festivals christBlackmasss ishtar easter
While this was a thoughtful video, I think this was honestly a bit of a misunderstanding of how Tim views a lot of these things. I think you have a presupposition of things associated with progressive Christianity when you listen to his teachings when his teachings are in stark opposition to it. He’s very hard on sin, does not have a metaphorical view of heaven and hell, and he isn’t just saying that we should live as if heaven is on earth lol. I think if you looked more in depth into his teachings and took out the presuppositions that you bring to it, you would not come to the conclusion that you do. God bless.
I agree. Several times, he paused to discuss and I kept thinking "Yeah, what you're saying isn't at odds with what he just said."
Yes! Thank you Joshua! You are right
I agree with you Joshua. Tim does discuss those things. Just talked about it in the clips he ran.
Wrong
He has been interviewed on progressive Christian podcasts like the Bible For Normal with Peter Enns.
I do watch Bible Project channel quite consistently. I now think you are distorting what Tim end up saying in all these videos. Tim does highlight the wrath of God at the end. What The Day of The Lord videos. I believe you, my brother in Christ are taking snippets of Tim's points and removing them from context.
All of the material you examined were from 2015, I think you should watch and listen to his follow-up sermons and podcasts. You'll find Tim doesn't dismiss heaven and hell as being metaphorical, nor does he shy away from God's judgement. It's really sad to see such a good resource for analyzing themes and words be dismissed by people who haven't even given it a chance.
I have content from him denying PSA and hell in the last year or so.
@@fuenti99 can you share that? I'd like to hear it
@@fuenti99 please share! 🙏🏾
@@fuenti99 yes i want to see him denying PSA
@@fuenti99 he should deny PSA - it's garbage theology.
2 Peter 3:3-7 To summarize: mockers will come saying that God has no wrath for the ungodly.
I don't just forever sing the praises of a God that didn't kill me. I sing forever the praises of the God who didn't kill me when I deserved death. I was unworthy and the wages of sin is death. Romans
Is the wages of sin death or eternal conscious torment in Hell? In Genesis, why did God guard the Tree of Life?
@@TheBenevolentDictatorship because He wants to give the fruits of this tree to those who are deemed (by Him of course) worthy. We were forbidden from eating this fruit because, we already had eaten from the fruit of knowledge of good and bad. If you cannot obey a simple order, and you are eternal, what mess is gonna come out of it? We had to learn first, that there are consequences to our actions. Now we know that, when doing wrong, we are to suffer the consequences. That's the direct effects of the fruit we ate (knowing right from wrong). Anyway, we're not to discuss God's decisions and thinking. And the death that is mentioned has at least three different meanings. First of all, the death of the Nephesh (physical body), because after the first sin, God said that he would reduce the length of our days on earth. The second meaning relates to death itself, wich is separation from God. Then, the third meaning is about eternal damnation, lake of fire, after judgment day. But it's about destruction more than it is about torture. It's called the second death, wich means that, after dying with the physical body, and resurrecting on the day of judgment, the person who's condemned goes to the lake of fire to die a second time, for good. Maybe it is because as long as the day of judgment isnt there, no one goes there. Also, maybe it is because God separates the Nechama (soul) from the body, so that's why there are two places and two deaths. I don't know. But that's not as important as it is to actually do better to get closer to what God wants for us. Loving God is about following his commands, and his commands are only there to protect and guide us, wich is how He shows His love to us. That's a two sided relationship.
👏
@@LM-vg3fk
Yes, that’s exactly my point: the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment. Scripture is clear that God alone is immortal and that immortality is a gift for those in Christ, not something which we already possess. The Scriptural support for Conditionalism is abundant while there are only a few proof texts which are used in support of ECT, almost all coming from the middle chapters of Revelation, the least literal in all of Scripture. To those who by patience seek for glory, honor and immortality, he will grant eternal life. The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The choice is always shown to be between everlasting life or everlasting death, not everlasting torture.
@@TheBenevolentDictatorshipbiblically death also means separation from God and there are passages that talk about the "second death" in a place of eter al torment hell. Your question is a good one- God guarded the tree of life after sin and all its destructive consequences came into the world. He didn't want humans to be doomed to an eternity in our current broken, fallen world. The tree is spoken of again in revelation after Jesus returns and there is a new heaven and new earth, with no sin or suffering any longer. Then the redeemed ones will eat from that tree. He made a way out of that eternal suffering we (humanity) brought upon ourselves with sin, for all who choose to accept it.
Only God is good, that was true during the Bible times and still is today. So it puzzles me that people look for perfection in ma n when we know for sure that man doesn't have it. At the end of the day, we all need to test the word in the Spirit . Because only God is good .
I just found you and this is the first video I picked because I do have a hesitancy about Tim and BP and I wanted to see what you would say specifically. Funny enough, this is one teaching of Tim's I have watched through a couple of times for personal reasons as it was sent to me by a dear friend.
The trouble with picking and choosing certain points to another person's teaching is that you can so easily take it out of context. I'm not saying you did that intentionally, but I do know the ending to this teaching and I don't think it is heretical. I've also watched the Q&A session they did for this particular teaching.
The way it is framed here, it certainly seems heretical. Make no mistake, I have not spent any time watching other BP teaching, so I don't have all this 'sound teaching' piled up to be able to "lessen the heretical". I would have felt much better about this video if you would have encouraged people to go watch the whole video with caution and judge with discernment and scripture OR if you had reacted to the whole teaching, especially the end and what Tim says Hell is.
At the heart of the message, Tim believes Hell is our eternal choice of separation from God and as eternity goes on, we get further and further from God. He talks about standing in the Valley of Hinnom, or GeHenna, with his wife and the realization of Hell being a real place; a real, eternal, and agonizing experience for those who turn their back on Jesus.
I totally agree with you. I think brother Corey is selecting stand alone points from Tim's teaching meant to provoke the audience to think through them. Then Tim always round up full circle to deliver the idea on that particular point. Bible Project is biblically centered so far.
Brother Corey needs to understand this too, no one person has got it all anyway when it comes to the Word of God. We need to be building each other up and not tearing down other workers in the same Body of Christ.
@@kingmusaba6045 thank you. I don’t want to sound ungrateful to someone trying to point out false teaching, because that’s important. I would be interested if he did a whole look at Tim’s full teaching on it - especially what Tim comes around to saying what he believes Hell is and why he believes that from the text- which does sound completely, well, hellish.
BP seems to be really big on looking at the text and understanding it in context as to whether it was meant as literal, figurative and what that means as we live our lives for the kingdom now.
@@deannarmartin113 I totally agree. Pointing out false or heretic teaching is needed, especially in our age. I don't mind even when someone points out an error with the agenda to correct. I mean the Apostle Paul corrected Peter publicly and wrote it down for us to see and learn from. You are so on point with what BP is trying to do in their videos....I get the same idea and I literally doubt check with scripture itself.
i agree, this video does a disservice to Tim, honestly. I'm fairly certain Tim doesn't believe Hell is just an optional place that isn't as good as heaven. Tim also doesn't think heaven isn't that great either. I think his teaching speaks for itself, though I don't feel like I can agree with everything 100% and do feel some liberal stuff creeping in, I think it's much closer to the truth than what SCC has, which is pretty wooden imo. We've had Christus Victor and 6 other theories for a really long time, like come on.
He trying to get subscribers huh?
Nah, you missed on this one man. Think you misunderstood the brother. He is just looking at hell from a different perspective. Focusing his view less on how God punishes people out of His wrath but on how man chooses their own fate in refusing God. He seems to be proposing the that most tormenting thing is to be removed from the presence and grace of God even the passive grace. He's actually making much more of who God is.
He also teaches a here but not yet view on the Kingdom so I would imagine he appeals to a parallel idea on the flesh, hell and everything associated with Satans lessor kingdom of rebellion perse he is trying to build which I could see this perspective fleshed out in Romans.
Plus eschatology has long been a much debated topic that since the church existed has had no consensus. I'm sure alot of folks here believe in the rapture and the left behind series stuff.
You seem to have a very reformed shaped view of the atonement which again, is one biblical perspective.
I hope you reach out to the brother and seek clarity.
Agreed!!! Great points!
As an adult who suffers from ADHD and a learning disability I read my scriptures but I really love the Bible projects illustrations and the way they can break it down to my understanding 🤍
You are taking this one video, watching it with your assumptions, and twisting what you think he teaches into it. He doesn’t teach a metaphorical hell and he very much is strong on God’s wrath. He takes the atonement seriously.
The maker of this video supported his statements with scripture.
If you're going to disagree with his examination of Tim Mackie's message, would you consider using scripture too?
Reminding us that Mackie is a Hebrew scholar should not stop us from examining his message based on the Bible which is readily available to us all, learned and unlearned.
This is sadly what's wrong about trusting a man too much over the Word of God.
Love the Bible Project and trust the teachings that comes out of this godly group.
What this guy teaches is ungodly.
The bible project is where i started my journey to Jesus. God bless the Bible Project and all the people who have found a better way to Christ thru their platform
This is an inaccurate assessment of what was originally taught in that lesson. I would suggest everyone go watch the original video and come to your own conclusions.
I disagree, I've seen that sermon in its entirety and I think his words are being twisted right now. These are sound bites out of context. And as far as heaven, his view is biblical based on the scriptures. From the Old Testament to the new there is far more emphasis on dwelling in a remade and renewed Earth forever then there is on leaving Earth and living in heaven. The end of Revelations says we will come back down and dwell in a new earth. Jesus taught that the kingdom was here, and that the meek will inherit the earth. What Tim is saying is the same thing that Christ was saying, is that it begins now. Our resurrected life begins now that's bible. We are the salt of the earth, temples of the Holy Spirit and the way we live should bring faint hints of Heaven to Earth, that's bible. The overlapping of Heaven and Earth is a theme woven through the entire scripture from Eden , to Jacob's dream, the tent of meeting, the temple, they were all hints at who and what was to come, and is still to come again. That's his context, and it is completely biblical.
P.S
I am truly uncomfortable with this distinction, separation, and alienation that some Christians are treated with by others based on their views on issues that are deemed to be social issues. What does that even mean? Are social issues not human issues? It's an issue of repentance sir. What does loving your neighbor look like and should that not matter to a Christian in a quote on quote Christian Nation that has been built on slavery and oppression? God himself had much to say about slavery and oppression, the prophets gave rebuke after rebuke because of how the people of Israel became like the other nations, not just serving other gods, but how they treated the poor and the oppressed. Justice issues, social issues, they are human issues, I don't see the disconnect. To me it's honestly harder not to see the connection with these issues and the gospel of the Kingdom, Jesus's Gospel, then it is to see it. And furthermore, there are many Brown brothers and sisters who are walking away from the faith or rejecting it all together because of dishonest depictions of Christ and also atrocities done using his name and distorting his word. Do we just let them be doomed because it's too much work to move the stumbling blocks out of the way? There is much to be done and it starts in house. When the particular social issue is in line with God's standard where is the push back coming from? Is racism Godly? I would hope that you think not. So why would speaking or standing against it be wrong in any way??? We need to ask ourselves where is the pushback really coming from? Because to me it's only logical to be against these things if you claim to be a Christian.
Well Said!! So well said!
He is a Hebrew and Old Testament scholar. Hebrew Old Testament guys read the bible in an ancient context. His concepts of heaven and hell are coming from ancient and early first century Jewish beliefs. There is tons of peer reviewed Biblical Scholarship on every issue he talks about. He does not down play hell, he does not down play heaven. Sin is very serious in their videos. Its the reason Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood, they never downplay that either. They talk repeatedly about The Day of The LORD when God will once and for all judge all sin and wickedness!
None of what he teaches is heresy.
Do Christians all have to be a part of the same tradition or denomination!?!
No, you just have to have the exact same doctrinal convictions apparently...
The Pharisees were also the #1 Bible scholars of there day. I don’t know enough About the situation to make a decision I just wanted to point this out.
He said we created hell... Never heard that one before.
If this isn’t heretical then what is it? Does seriously make me question the platform as a whole. He has millions of followers on the internets largest site. I do hope there isn’t anything sinister or wicked behind his work and simply an error which we can and do all make. My main concern with the teaching on hell is that it waters down what Jesus did for us. He literally died. Why? To save us. From what? From hell? To say hell is something we have created is not Biblical and totally contradicts God’s Word. Thanks for your work on this brother. May God continue to bless you.
I have questioned the hell metaphor also but after watching and learning a lot from Bible Project and TM, I think a lot of this may have been taken out of context. Tim has others sermons where he speaks about the wrath of God. TM speaks a lot about sin in his preaching. He also teaches restoration and God’s goodness superseding any sin or evil the world can offer.
Not out of context. Mackie literally states in a podcast that hell is place of mercy and grace where those that choose to live apart from God can do so. That’s counter to the Gospel; how do we measure our gain in Christ if nothing is truly at stake?
It also could be growth. It’s important to be discerning in all things, though. I like the Bible project and it’s made me more orthodox on the Eucharist, for instance. I don’t know how orthodox I am on the subject of God’s wrath either.
However, there are a lot of alarm bells in this particular talk that scream he’s wrong on this.
Great teaching brother. I don't watch that channel anyway, but I definitely will avoid it even more..
@@kevinjobe2078 hey would you be okay to share which podcast episode this was? Would love to check it out
@@kevinjobe2078 so having an existence apart from God - the only true source of life and human flourishing - means there is nothing at stake? And there needs to be something at stake for someone to love God? I think that the idea Mackie is trying to convey is that God is showing mercy to unbelievers by respecting their choice to not choose him, but existence apart from God will result it pain, torment and ultimately death.
I have some minor problems with the implications of Tim's theology myself (many of the same that you have) and I'm also a teacher and think it's important for teachers to be careful about what they say, but I think this critique is unhelpful and that it helps to increase the misuse of the word "Heresy". I also think it, potentially, encourages a type of divisiveness among believers that isn't warranted given the critiques offered.
There are a couple of basic errors in this critique and they mostly have to do with IMPLICATION (what you feel someone is alluding to or implying) versus EXPLICATION (what particularly a person is saying, regardless of what allusions or implications it brings to mind for the listener).
"The way he makes it seem is that Hell is not that bad of a place..." is what you said at 18:50, for example. But, nowhere ever has Tim ever said that. This is an example of implication. It would be easier to label his view heretical if he had said what you said, but he didn't. Tim has talked about how bad Hell is and, like most seminary professors, he is careful not to use absolutes. He says, "Whatever Hell is..." in order to create room for theological distinction about the specifics of Hell. He acknowledges, with the scriptures, that Hell is devoid of God's goodness, is a place for people in rebellion towards God to experience the rewards of their rebellion etc. He holds to all of the biblical imperatives, he just differs in how he expresses the details.
As you say throughout the whole video, you're critiquing what the implications of what he said might be. You mention how he's making "light" of hell. But he doesn't think he's doing that. Really what he's doing is he's talking about hell differently from how you or I might talk about it, and that difference worries us. And because it's different, it's easy to put on to him that's making light of it. But he maintains that Hell is every bit as bad as the scriptures say it is. That's not the same thing as making light of it.
I think this video could have done all of the same things so long as it labeled what your fears are versus what he's actually articulated.
I agree with you completely my brother, it's the word choices he seems to be having issues with. I think he believes Tim is being too figurative but I'm too sure what exactly is Tim view on hell or even heaven.
@@simonlawrence7994 Agreed. To give him as much charity as possible, I think Tim's mistake is he's trying to push back against a wooden archetype of Hell and Heaven and he's not doing enough work to help the average listener understand what he's NOT saying. Which is why I think the critique of this video COULD be helpful, if it were to focus more on that reality rather than going all the way to saying he's preaching heresy.
I'm in seminary and this is exactly what my professors do all of the time. They hate the overly simplistic, neat, theological ideas that exist in the Church because they know enough about the scriptures to recognize a lot of those wooden archetypes lead to unhelpful ideas about other important parts.
The difference is, in a seminary class, you can ask the teacher exactly what he means and doesn't mean. You get clarity. And, if Tim is like any of the professors I've known, he's probably just suffering from his own knowledge. He know so much about the scriptures and he's so secure in his own sense of orthodoxy that he doesn't recognize that when he says something unusual that other people are going to run all the way to the bank with it.
What I can say is that the average, orthodox, Old Testament PhD does not heavily disagree with Tim; at the least they wouldn't call it heresy. At most, they disagree with his metaphors. He's not saying anything unheard of in most seminaries in America, even if not everyone agrees.
Well put
Very interesting!!! Thanks for posting
@@brentcampbell459 Useful and insightful. Thanks for posting. 2Tim.4.22
Bro, the bible project took me from atheist to christian. The lord works in many ways.
As a former new ager, the premise that we created hell is popular in new age thought. It's not biblical.
Tim Mackie has helped millions truly understand the biblical story. Maybe we should ask the question, is our ‘doctrines’ watertight as we make them out to be?
Mackie is drawing on tens, if not hundreds, of scholars for his work at the Bible Project. Have you engaged with them too, and concluded their teaching is heretical?
My thoughts exactly, bro.
Well, "heretical" is a charged term.
I'm a Christian, but I acknowledge that my beliefs are "heretical" according to many mainline denominations.
Heretical simply means I believe differently than a certain denomination believes.
I don't believe the bread and wine are more than symbolic, which is heresy to Catholics and many others.
Heresy does NOT mean bad, evil, or wrong. It means I don't agree with that church doctrine. I'm still a follower of Jesus.
I don't believe that all Christians must believe the same doctrines.
We can still work together and love each other. Forcing everyone to believe the same doctrines caused a lot of torture and death in the middle ages.
Great point Zachary. I agree
@@langreeves6419 Heresy, in greek, means "to divide". So, technically, anything that needlessly divides the body of Christ is heresy. And any person who needlessly engages in that behavior is a heretic.
Clearly, people can go too far and end up in places of false teaching and demonic doctrine but those things are spelled out pretty well in the scriptures. Having a nuanced view of hell that is barely left of center in comparison to the average OT scholar is not heresy.
@@langreeves6419 Yeah, fair enough, I understand what you are getting at. But the way you have used the words 'heresy' and 'heretical' is not the same as this video. This video equates heresy to being wrong, unless I am mistaken. I mean, just scroll down and read some of the comments people are making...
And accordingly, I have used this understanding in my own comment, if that makes sense? Essentially, my question is, Tim Mackie follows numerous scholars with his theology around heaven and other various topics, so does that make those scholars wrong (sub out heretical) too?
The Bible Project has done wonders for Christian’s pursuing their relationship with Jesus - nothing but praise for Pastor Mackie and the great works he’s been doing.
when he said "sadistic" I felt like he was chanlleging God to a moralaty battle.. kinda like new age talk.. I love the Bible project channel but this is strange
Very new age. What's alarming also is I've heard ATHEISTS describe God and salvation the way he describes it, which is odd considering he's an alleged believer. No way should a skeptic and a Christian's view of God sound similar.
Gotta be careful with that idea that he was teaching, we don’t want that feeling of being like Job being asked a bunch of humbling questions by God 😅
This is not an accurate representation of what Mackie believes. Is this the first time you watched this video as you were recording this?
How many of The Bible Project videos and podcasts have you listened through? Just curious. How you are representing Mackie’s beliefs in this video is inaccurate.
And to compare him to Joel Osteen is kind of outrageous.
I’ve watched the exact video of him that you played and Mackie is not saying hell doesn’t exist and throughout the whole of his work in the Bible Project, he does not downplay the wrath of God and sin.
Matt. 25:41
““Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
1. Prepared (Grk.-hetoimazo) verb, to make ready or make arrangements; kept in readiness for the hour and day namely, predetermined by God.
What gets me is that these are right in scripture and yet, the people don't read for themselves so they just go with it. It saddens me.
I listened to this video because I wanted to know what the full argument was. In the end it felt like the main complaint was that because Tim doesn't preach in an old-school hellfire and brimstone style then his teaching is heretical (edited for clarity). Tim does often (not alway) approach hard issues softly but fairly. Teaching can slowly slip, but having watched his recent material they are accurate to my other biblical learning.
I plan to listen to the full sermon (which wasn't linked that I could see) to gain a balanced view.
At about the 2:30 mark Corey clearly states that neither Tim nor the Bible Project is or are heretics. Tim is clearly wrong in his view of Hell and the Atonement. That needs to be stated and Corey does
@@seventhheaven535 Ok, fair point I wasn't quite accurate, it's the teaching that he says is heretical, at least he does (or heavily implies) so later on. I've found the sermon on atonement but not yet found where he discusses hell so I don't have a full picture of what Tim's description is yet. The description of atonement as paying the cost to cover sin seems accurate enough.
Honestly, Tim is one of the best out there, and Bible Project is so well made. Take a look around, everyone tries to get a piece of the success Tim has had, but he got it by being great at what he does, not by posting videos about other teachers. Tim’s name led me to this video, and I won’t leave without saying that his quality and personality as well as his knowledge and content deserves much more than what I saw in this critique. The church was divided from the moment it began, look to the Holy Spirit for understanding and try to create valuable content, stop the gossip, stop the criticism upon fragments taken out of context… these very things have threatened Christianity as a whole since the time of the Pharisees, really, just look to making your own content in honor of our God and speak only what is helpful for building others. James 4:11 “do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it”. Praise the LORD, stop the slander!
Amen!
Amen
I’ve watched many of Tim Mackie’s videos, and he’s definitely not preaching a “soft” God. In his other videos, he definitely mentions God’s wrath … but here he’s preaching about God’s mercy to us by taking out His wrath upon His only begotten Son. But Tim is also doing it in an educational way that allows unbelievers to grasp the Good News more easily; I think he’s doing his assigned duty of winning souls for the Kingdom.
I think Tim’s point though isn’t that God won’t punish us for our misdeeds - through “hell”- but that as Christians we can’t scare people into belief. Fear is the tool of the adversary, God offers us unconditional Love, and it’s embodied fully in Jesus and all his words, he doesn’t need to threaten us with hell and the fear of torment to force us to love him. Fear of God is a healthy respect for the fact that he has given us free will and if we make a bad choice he will allow us to suffer the consequence and learn the lesson. Fear of God is not fear that forces us to Love him but a fearful respect for the awe-some power this creator holds and the benevolence he wields it with. When we threaten non-Christians with hell we push them further away from God - we are no longer spreading the good word- even if WE KNOW they’re actions could result in their damnation we don’t bring them to salvation and the Love of God by inducing fear. Choosing to “love” god because of Fear is not true love and not a true faith, it’s just predatory manipulation.
This
I’m glad so many people are engaging with critically thinking about teachings and it’s enlightening to see such a range of viewpoints.
I’m also quite surprised at how many of us assume we’re right while pointing at where we believe others are wrong. For generations humanity has believed itself to be the most learned and wise generation, yet the next inevitably comes to pass with the same belief.
This.
@@Avenray19 .... he said, assuming he was right to point it out.
@@fuenti99 isn't human communication neat?
@@fuenti99 You make a good point. I hope to be self aware enough to know I’m probably not entirely right either, but maybe I’m wrong about that too, who knows😂
@@paddiecorley1108 it's a self-defeating way of thinking, man.
BEST ADVISE: “Never read a Bible verse”
You can make a single Bible verse say just about anything without reading the WHOLE context of the chapter, looks like you can also make a video of video clips say just about anything, Leaves me pondering the whole context in Tim Mackie’s video.
Both teachers have excellent points. What all people need is a multi-facetted understanding of God's provision for atonement. Problems arise when one facet is the focus. We need John 3:16 and John 15:5-6
Bro!!!!! That cut to Osteen made me laugh out loud literally 😂😂😂
I started following the Bible project early on, and gotta say it blessed me a lot. I still think their overviews of the different books are incredibly helpful, and even my kids love watching them. Really helped me get back the overall context and flow of arguments and not just see them as "verse soup".
BUT.... when I started watching Tim's actual teachings (especially this one), ugh. What a let-down. Yet another really cool Christian project that has to be tainted by some kind of warped spin on the gospel. Why is it so many Bible teachers think they have to come up with some novel approach to basic doctrines that have been thoroughly hashed out over two millennia?
This is a good question. Maybe they're to soften certain hard stances found in scripture.
I think a trap that all Christians (including me) can fall into is thinking we need big answers to big questions. Sometimes, deep study and thinking will help when reading the Bible. But so often I see people are too eager to expand on what we know and tie it to something seemingly deeper when all we need to do is read God’s Word and truly accept what He is saying.
@@jerico80
He didn’t add nor take away from Scripture, but only pointed out that ECT is completely unbiblical, which it is.
“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.”
God alone is immortal, and immortality is a conditional upon being in Christ. The wicked and unrepentant will be destroyed after being punished in Hell for a “time within a time.” There are well over 100 Scriptures which speak to the total and final destruction of the lost, while only a few proof texts are used in support of ECT in Hell, most coming from the middle chapters of Revelation, the least literal in all of Scripture, by far.
Neither Paul nor any other apostle in any epistle ever once mentions nor warns of ECT in Hell. In Acts no one is ever once warned of ECT in Hell. That would be the worst oversight in the history of the world if ECT in Hell is true as the RCC established as a tradition.
Jesus paid the wages of our sins by dying, and in rising again, conquering the power of sin and death, the first fruits of the promised inheritance, eternal life.
God guarded the Tree of Life specifically so that Adam and Eve would not become immortal. In Revelation Jesus says “To the one who conquers, I will grant to eat of the fruit from the Tree of Life which is in the paradise of God.”
@@jerico80
Let’s start one at a time. Where their worm does not and their fire is not quenched is in quotes, because Jesus is quoting Isaiah. It’s Isaiah 66:24. Please read the verse and notice it’s a scene of absolute destruction, not conscious torment. Everyone is dead, not suffering. It’s a picture of complete destruction. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with unquenchable fire. Are they still burning? No. Please look at the Scripture and get back to me.
@@jerico80
Did you read the verse from Isaiah? It’s very clearly a picture of complete destruction. They’re dead, not in torment. Who is quoting who isn’t the point. Let’s assume Isaiah is quoting Jesus. The verse still very clearly speaks of dead bodies, not anyone suffering conscious torment. “Rather fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Hell.” There’s nothing in either that suggest conscious torment, but exactly the opposite. It’s all based on very poor exegesis and the traditions of men. Look, if you’re just trying to uphold your preconceived views instead of actually studying Scripture, I don’t expect you to listen to me if you’re not going to trust what Scripture clearly states. The verse from Isaiah is referencing dead bodies, not people being tormented. And, again, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with unquenchable fire. Are they still burning? No. Unquenchable fire is fire that cannot be stopped and will be consumed entirely, just as Sodom and Gomorrah were an example of those who would suffer the punishment of everlasting fire. “But the wicked will perish; the enemies of the LORD are like pastures; they vanish; like smoke they vanish away.” Psalm 37:20 There’s well over 100 verse which speak clearly of the complete and final destruction of the lost. Are you aware that Scripture is clear that God alone has immortality?
That's why not all should be teachers ... I like the Bible project itself but some things did caught my attention(thank God for discernment) . Can't water down the Gospel . Love the video Corey
I wrote Bible Project personally to see if they've really gone progressive/woke and sure enough, I'm so saddened by what they replied. I straight up asked them, "Does your team agree with the Biblical truth that marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman?" And Christopher skirted around it replying with a woke answer that indeed their mission is more important than the mission of the Bible. Christopher of Bible Project said, "We don't have a published position on this particular issue, as we intentionally refrain from commenting on issues outside of the scope of our organization's mission."
Issues outside their mission??? We are not called as believers to pick and choose which portions of the Bible we teach. If the Bible Project is about the Bible, then your beliefs should courageously line up with the Bible without shame. This is why the gospel is being watered down and people are leaving the church, because ministries are driven by fear of pleasing all people to advance their personal missions instead of fearing God foremost.
So sad. Christians, be courageous, stand for truth without shame. Today's culture needs it more than ever!
Man, that's discouraging... I used to love listening to Tim, but something just felt off to me. I guess I inadvertently made the right call to quit drinking their particular flavor of Kool Aid
Cause it's not relevant to salvation
I have not yet listened to any of the Bible Project yet. I was led there by a friend. I saw this video and decided to listen first. From an outsider, can I just say what I got from their response? Maybe they felt like the question was attempting to lead them into a debate on choosing a side in a social justice cause and they didn't want to be brought into a cause rather than just wanting to stick to Jesus? I could be wrong because I haven't listened to them yet but that was just my initial thought in trying to help bring understanding to something that you seemed to enjoy previously.
This was a total misrepresentation of Mackie’s views. I know for a fact Tim believes heaven is a real place. He’s gone into great length on it in videos on the BP channel. One thing he is simply big on teaching is the reuniting of heaven AND earth. Which is literally the whole point of the Bible. It’s the end goal. For Gods will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. For the kingdom of God to come near. For there to be a new Eden. New creation. It’s why the city of Jerusalem comes down from heaven, in the new earth. There forever, we will live in harmony with our savior Jesus Christ, and God our father. It’s not just earth and it’s not just heaven, it’s both. So many Christian’s have this false idea that we are going to be sucked up and just live in heaven forever.
You need to teach a lesson on hell and heaven. It would be interesting to hear your explanation of our faith concerning heaven, hell and eternity, the purpose for our faith and the ultimate goal of the father. You should also talk more about reconciliation to the Father. You are actually exaggerating Tim's opinion on the atonement. I actually believe he agrees with the sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice. He is saying that there is more to the story than just being saved from the wrath of God. That is not the only reason for the sacrifice. You should look a little deeper. I totally disagree with you.
I think a better question to ask him is, what happens to people when they die having rejected Jesus?
They are eternally separated from God and exist in a state of torment, which he clearly teaches in the video “Isn’t the of hell just plain mean?” There is no gotcha question for Tim. This commentary video isn’t based on facts.
I really appreciate your presentation and I am thankful for your discussion and opinion. I too was shocked when I first listened to Tim Mackie's video "Compelled: Speaking and Living the Gospel" from which you showed excerpts. However, there are parts you left out that really compelled me to study and get to the bottom of this message. Key moments you didn't show are important to his video and provide the full scope of his message. One of those missing moments that captured my attention was when he stated how the version of salvation (which I grew up on) is mostly all about ME not God. He also referred to Mark 1 to define what the "Good News" means. His point which he made pretty clear is that the Bible doesn't dwell on hell. The entire Bible is about God and how after humanity repeatedly sins (and there are some AWFUL sins shared in the Bible) God has to repeatedly exile his people from his presence because of sin. Yet, it's God who also repeatedly forgives and chooses to draw us back to him. The ultimate moment is at the Crucifixion. The point of his message is that God's repeated insistence on saving us is the focus and compelling story of the Bible. I don't think he's making light of Hell (he uses James 3:6 to show that we do unleash Hell here and now). He's making a specific point about God. That story of God begins with Genesis 1-3 which mirrors Revelation 21. Creation begins the story and ends the story where we live in peace and the goodness of God presence. Everything in the middle between those chapters is about God and his plan to mend a relationship with humanity that humanity continually destroys. However, for those who chose to NOT believe, the Bible doesn't dwell on them. I think that's what Tim Mackie is sharing. He's saying that the message of the Bible is a compelling story to share with nonbelievers because God is compelling (Exodus 34:6-7) and that's the story of the Bible
You getting eaten up for this one... He is one of the good ones. Clickbait and intentional controversy like this is a dangerous place to be when trying to pursue unity and biblical literacy.
After watching this video, it didn't seem like Tim believes there is no torment in hell, he was pushing back at the idea that God is the one torturing them because he's angry. There is torment in hell, but it comes from the consequences of humanities choices, a choice to live a life separate from God. Hell is granting that choice in an eternal format, a life forever apart from God. If all good things come from God, obviously a life away from God is full of all the bad things, meaning torment. This is not an active punishment as much as it is a passive consequence. When we say choice, it's not that you get to the pearl gates and God asks you were you want to go, but your entire life on earth was you making that choice. If Jesus says he does not know you, that is not because Jesus chose not to know you. God has righteous anger, wrath, towards the sin that has separated Him from His children. Hell is the containment of those things and the embodiment of his wrath. Choosing sin means choosing that place. You also completely misrepresented his view on heaven. His point is that a life serving God should not begin when we get to heaven, especially since we have been given a great commission here on Earth. As Christians, we don't praise and worship and serve God because there's a reward at the end. We do those things because of who God is and what he has already done for us, because the life we have is already more than we deserve. His point is a discouragement from the saying "too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good". Building his kingdom on earth is part of our mission to make Him known to all corners and people of the earth. This reinforces, rather than diminishes, Jesus' sacrifice because it encourages us to join into the mission by "picking up our cross daily" in service ti His kingdom. Building the earthly kingdom is the exact same as building the heavenly kingdom because we are helping add souls to that number. It is a more communal view of our faith than a selfish one only focused on our reward. We should love God whether or not there was a reward.
Many here argue Tim is a scholar. Many competent scholars have been wrong, atheists, or heretical in their personal application of Scripture in the past. At the end of the day, we must strive to be diligent in reading and truly leaning on the Holy Spirit to teach us, and hold ourselves accountable to Him.
In my honest opinion, I think many people are unwilling to face the reality that God has wrath, has an expectation of holiness of us, and He will shed the blood of the armies in Armageddon. And many people are going to draw the line there when Jesus comes back. I think in the greatest rebellion at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ, many who see God as one-sided, all-loving, will hate him and the iron rod he rules by because they cannot see how justice and wrath are a product of real love. We know that judges on earth love and can have mercy, but they also enact the wrath of justice.
this is one of the many issues I believe plagues modern churches, and is/has/will seep into the "social media space" you have a person, pouring their understanding of their point of view of the Bible, God and Jesus and no one there to correct, rebuke them in the moment. This is why in my opinion discipleship is so important... Thanks for taking the time to go through this and I know just from some videos that you are open to correction, or discussion as we all should be.
At around 19:12, this video says that "if all Hell is" is the complete absence of God then that's "just not as nice".
Uhhhh, the eternal permanent separation from the source and definition of all light, life, love, and any other goodness is the worst thing I can imagine.
Martyrs have been tortured to death because union with Christ outweighs any pain and suffering we can experience. It's not torture that makes hell horrifying and unbearable. It's the total absence of God. Not even common grace.
Note that the rich man never repents or begs for forgiveness. He just wants relief. He doesn't want God anymore than he did in life.
If what makes heaven heaven for you is the niceness of it, the amenities, and not the presence of God, then I don't think you're going to like the New Heaven and Earth very much.
This is an excellent point, well said! I also think this is more in line with what Tim Mackie is trying to communicate about Hell.
I think Tim Mackie has a rudimentary understanding of Conditional Immortality, which is supported throughout Scripture. Revelation 20:14, both death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire. Chris Date has a podcast/YT channel, "Rethinking Hell." It's a very strong doctrine. God bless.
Agreed! More people need to learn about this!
He made hell sound like a timeout
How did he make hell sound like a timeout? Being absent from God is the worst possible thing I can possibly imagine.
@@a.pearce8820 true but not everyone knows that. There is no real description of what hell is. That it is a place of torment.
It is not on earth, it is an actual place that a person can actually go. It's CLEAR in the scripture. What that guy said was completely made up. It sounds dumb in my opinion, but only because I KNOW THE TRUTH. Search the scripture if you don't understand. But anyhow, he made hell sound less than what it really is.
Thanks for pointing these things out. I definitely don't like his tone towards a few important issues. He sounds like he might be deconstructing a bit.
If you listen to Dr. Tim Mackie he uses different vernacular. It's that way of speaking that has made the bible make more sense to many. He also follows patterns throughout the scriptures that has repetitive 'themes' that ultimately prove time and time again that Jesus is Lord! Be blessed and maybe address concerns after listening to more podcasts. Conversating that occurs in those sessions brings up questions that we have had but never come up in regular church study settings.
‘herasy’ is only an appropriate term if you are Roman Catholic and think Bible Project is deviating from officials RCC doctrine.
which i doubt you are.
it’s ok to disagree, but terms like ‘heresy’ are historically used to character assassinate, excommunicate, and even murder ‘heretics’.
i don’t understand why you made this about Bible Project and not about a theological topic(s) that is legitimatly debatable.
i just find this video unnecessarily divisive which detracts from any legitimate arguments you might be making.
i didn’t catch where you thought those watching Bible Project would somehow not come to salvation because of these ‘heresies’ whereas if they were corrected then someone/many would accept the gospel to be saved.
I think this video misses a lot of the point of discussion on Bible Project.
Bible Project is great
Errr, not if it isn't preaching the true gospel or if it is mocking God. Yeah, it sometimes has good content, but the teachings mentioned here are just plain deceitful and dangerous.
I have watched other videos like this that criticize Tim Mackie and the Bible Project. It seems what these videos have in common is that the speakers fail to see how their particular interpretation of the scripture is shaped by their own cultural and theological assumptions. One must be able to step out of their own frame of reference to objectively assess their own view as well the views of others. Having lived in 9 different countries in 4 continents, I have learned that many of the doctrine and theology that I have taken for granted as absolute truths most of my life were actually based on tradition and cultural interpretation of the scriptures. It’s not that they were necessary wrong, but that they were just one of many ways of looking at the scriptures and understanding the gospel. You may disagree with Mackie’s interpretation of heaven and hell, but his teachings are not heretical. They are in line with the gospel and scripturally sound.
“In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.”
I boycotted the Bible Project years ago. He (Tim) leans to his own understanding (distorting the truth) - he does not rightly divide the Word of God. Warning to all: Flee from this ''Tim Project'.
Hi brother I have a question maybe you can answer. I was reading in Revelation this morning in 2nd chapter . I know we have eternal life permanently but why in verse 7 does it say to him who overcomes will eat from the tree of life? It says that in a few places in the 2nd chapter.
The word for overcomes or conquers is the word νικῶντι , which is an active participle. So a good way to read or understand it is "To all of you who are overcoming or conquering, you all will eat of the tree of life". It's just affirming what they have in store for them
@@smartchristians Thanks Corey you are such a blessing to so many of us!!! God bless you brother man. Kim
No. The same root word νικάω but not the same tense and therefore not the same meaning. Words matter. so to do the tense, mood, voice, case endings, declensions, etc.
They (we) are called the "the overcoming ones" or "the ones that are overcoming", and thus will not end up in Hell. All Christians are the overcoming ones. Don't confuse the professing Christians with the Possessing Christians who are "overcomers"
@@smartchristians 3 years ago after reading Jeremiah 33:3 and a result of prayer the Father opened the salvation doctrine to me like never before the previous 27 years. Including 1 John 3:8-9 which always tripped me up.. But now I have been set free from religion, have found my rest , and enjoying a much better relationship with God ...
That being said there are verses that appear to contradict our blessed assurance ..Someone needs to do a translation that clears this up for everyone and removes confusion for immature or new Christians. Thanks brother and God bless ...I have been directing people on you tube to your channel so they can get straight on their doctrine concerning salvation ....
The Bible project gave me a clear insight to some of the chapters in the Bible, but why is it that watching him on that stage seem very awkward, like he’s challenging the Lord, almost in a mocking way? It doesn’t sit right with me.
Paul said that "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." Because ALL of us can only TRY to understand God's message but can never truly tell the 100 percent truth. Who's to say that there is or there is no hell? Has anyone gone there and came back? Everything that we know and see, are only a reflection of what is to come. NOBODY can say that this is the 100 perfect truth, or fact. So, who are we to say or label people as false teachers? Are we really the bearers of truth? Do we know everything?
That's why Paul is encouraging us to just be faithful, and LIVE in LOVE because that is Jesus' true message. Instead of criticizing each other and judging, and condemning, let's just practice love.
"If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."
So, if there is one truth that we must know and uphold as Jesus believers, it is LOVE.
I thought hell was made for the falling angel's. I never knew it was something that we as humans create and unleash on eachother.🤦♂️
8:25 I sense a lack of humility here. To assume "atonement" in the scriptures refers to PSA because you already are convince PSA is necessary is eisegesis. The scripture given doesn't say anything about a penalty or payment or punishment. In fact, it is making a connection between life and blood. The animal is substitution but it isn't being "punished."
Facts.
I highly disagree with this.
This video is very helpful. I was listening full of doubt and a hard heart because I listen to The Bible Project all the time. But this video is correct. The Bible Projecy does not speak about hell. I just checked. (Hence the comparison to Tim Olsen) Jesus did come to pay our sin debt, so that we have a relationship with God and to ultimately allow us to go the heaven and not hell.
Thank you Lord for showning me that I have been lazy and allowed myself to be fed by others rather than your word. I need to do better and feed myself with your word rather than expecting others to feed me. in Jesus' name. Amen ❤❤❤
What I like about the Bible Project is that it doesn't rubbish other people's theology and recognises there are theologies. There are multiple views of the atonement... but of course... everyone wants to say their understanding is the right and only one.
By looking at your video I don’t think you have watched the entirety of the Bible Project and understood Mackie’s position. I think you’re picking and choosing things out of context.
I've listened enough to bible project to be able to follow along and you haven't told me anything I haven't learned via the Bible project. I think it's great that they are getting the discussion going, there is reflection, and they most certainly encourage you to read the text yourself and join the discussion. Consider focusing on biblical scriptures as a discussion, rather than criticizing those who are doing just that.
1. The only person in the whole bible who goes to heaven is Jesus. And we are expecting him to return. The bible ends in a garden on earth, not in heaven.
2. The Bible never claims "God poured out his wrath on Christ" or anything to that effect. He didn't die in your place or suffer in your place either. That is why we are employed to both die with him, take up our cross and bear the reproach. We are expected to suffer with Christ.
What is wrong is Calvinism and the Vicarious Penal Atonement theory. It just seems heretical because you have been indoctrinated. And no, Isaiah 53 does not mention wrath even once and nothing in Isaiah 53 contradicts the statements I made. Also, consider, "Christ died for you." Similarly, a soldier can die for you. That doesn't mean the soldier dies in your place. If you think Christ died for you therefore you are saved and go to heaven, what does it mean when it says "Christ died for sin" will sin be going to heaven? The phrase "Christ died for you." does not have to mean in your place.
Allen Parr was speaking on this, I want to hear your take on it. I can’t remember what brother Parr said about it but I’m sure it’s the same issues. Thank you for teaching us to be smart Christians. Because I am getting more mature in my faith but I know need more understanding every time I think I know it all God reminds me nope you don’t lol ❤
I love the bible project, I love Tim's approach to the bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus. I love his Hebrew and greek brakdowns of the orginal text, Tim simplifies it to where you dont have to be scholar of ancient hebrew or greek to firmly understand what the books are trying to convey, my biggest issues with the bible project is that, and this is my opinion, they dont encourage having or point out the importance of having a personal relationship with Jesus, dont get me wrong ive seen them talk about it, i thinknit should be brought up more on their platform, but that ultimately me being a critic.
Thanks for posting
Id say if people are pointed out about the bible that its not scary. Jesus will move people to read the word themselves. The Bible project leads people to Jesus and Jesus will for sure change a person.
Well said! Thank you for being a truth teller and using original sources.
org sources are in Arameic and Hebrew BOTH of which Tim studies and can speak quite a bit of Hebrew. Not to mention THE ONLY thing that can truly interpret scripture is Jesus and the Holy Spirit which Jesus himself points out to His disciples. Start using the Strong's Thesaurus and will give you what the word was in scripture and also the meaning of the word. You will get insight. Then let God reveal. "John 16:13 NIV
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."
You so misunderstand everything he’s saying it’s absurd. You didn’t take any time to understand.
Because of Tim's teachings on hell and what sin is, I cannot support the Bible project at all! It is too important of an issue! I can refute everything Tim said with scripture. He doesn't use scripture in this video. He simply talks about it.
Thank you...I Just Unsubscribed To The Bible Project RUclips Channel.
Here is what I think, we will never fully agree on certain things, and there are other things that may be heretical. But does that mean now we don't have fellowship with them? Or in this case, do we stop listening to them altogether?
@@treasurenkhwashu
I Can Gleam Off Of Some Of his Teachings, Because The Lord Has Made Me Mature And Is Still Maturing Me, But I Definitely Won't Reference his Channel To Anyone, Especially A Unbeliever And New Believer.
@@kylemanningjcic1333 here is what I'm saying, if me and you disagree on one issue, let's say the tribulation and if believers will go through it or not, if you are wrong on that but we agree on almost everything else does it mean I should tell people not to listen to you?
@@treasurenkhwashu
Do You Believe What he Said About Hell Was True? Yes Or No?
@@kylemanningjcic1333 that's not the point we are talking about.... The issue is if I'm wrong about one thing, does that mean people should not be listening to me altogether?
Thank you Brother Corey for this. I saw this about him on another channel as well concerning his teaching. I like The Bible Project and they do a lot of good work. But this is concerning.
Does any of us have %100 air tight theology?
Around 6:35 when he said "Who does that remind you of." I was gonna say a young N.T. Wright, and then he showed a clip of Joel Osteen. Tim and Joel are not similar at all.
Hey brother Corey I would like to thank you for being a light in these dark times. I have an unrelated question. My question is about Roman's chapter 1. I do my best not to try to conform today's cultural ills to just one passage in the Bible because if we do that we can make the Bible say something that it doesn't. I don't know if that makes any sense. However, when I read Roman's 1, I can't help but to see parallels with what's going on today with what Paul talks about in verses 18 -32. Was Paul speaking prophetically as well as to that current time? What's your thoughts on this. Thanks.
Hi! I’m not Corey but wanted to just drop some two cents! Hebrews 13:8 says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Jesus is God and the Bible is God’s word to us. So since he is the same yesterday, today and forever I believe the answer to your question at the end would be both. The culture back then and the culture now. Hope this helps (:
Thank you for posting this. I kept feeling like something was off with them but I couldn't put my finger on what it was. Their explanations are not classic Bible explanations. I thought their video on the Tree of Life and The Divine Council were odd.
Just because it’s “odd” doesn’t make it unscriptural.. i really love the way Tim challenges some traditional teachings by really breaking down what the scripture says
Gosh, I love you as a brother in Christ trying to make sure people have good and sound teaching, but as many others have already said I think you have missed the nuances of Tim's points and there wasn't a lot of allowing for his full discussion to flesh that out. I deeply believe that both he and you have a similar depth of understanding the weight of sin and the need to be cleansed and if you really try to see his points from the perspective that he understands that He'll is bad enough that it needs to be expelled it does line up with all of the disagreement you have with him. It's frustrating to see people label anyone like this through just a video format with being able to speak to one another as brothers, but assuming heresy and telling people away from this without that is akin to accusing someone in your own counsel. At the very least two or three and the man who is accused before you can proclaim that kind of sound judgement with potentially appearing foolish yourself for whenever the man in question could exonerate himself by being heard and understood. And if something truly were out of line, which I still don't see as the case, how could it be corrected otherwise? This seems ruthless and slanderous from one christian against another who is truly seeking and trying to understand a very difficult, deep, and beautiful, good news.
Whatever is only almost true is quite false, and among the most dangerous of errors, because being so near truth, it is the more likely to lead astray.
- Henry Ward Beecher
These kind of videos continue to blow me away. If you're going to cover someone else's teachings learn what they are actually teaching. Take the time to do the research. Tim Mackie never denies substitutionary atonement. Do the research before you start tearing down someone's teaching.
I used to watch the channel Bible project faithfully but when you actually break it down like this, it gives you a different perspective of how so many are being deceived. Thank you brother for this eye opener.
I think a lot of politically conservative believers like myself hear Tim and hear what he talks about, and hear him referring to sinfulness as 'brokenness' and they jump to conclusions about his position in the culture and then assume he is approaching the text from a theologically liberal perspective. I suspect Mr. Mackie is not as conservative as I am politically, but this does not mean he is a theological liberal. I am starting to see more and more attitudes in the Church where people are ready to cast out anyone who doesn't fit into an increasingly narrow evangelical purity test. This is starting to go beyond a caution of avoiding obvious heresies. If your trying to convince people that Tim Mackie is a more sophisticated version of Joel Osteen, you are probably painting with too broad of a brush.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
I love Bible protect videos and I hope many people will do same
I’ve noticed that progressive Christianity will attach the theology of atonement with Calvinism. This gives them a excuse to reject the atonement.
Are you making a general observation?or are you suggesting that Tim Mackie is a progressive teacher?
@@a.pearce8820 Tim Mackie is a progressive Christian
Do you understand that christians who reject Penal Substitutionary atonement dont reject the atonement, but your interpretation of the mechanism of the atonement.
@@dimitartodorov4826 well I’m listening, what is your interpretation of the mechanism of atonement?
I'm wondering what your take is on the Bible project's study on Exodus? I don't want to learn from false teachers. Please help
Eyes Like Fire Ministry is great
That is the real heaven. Life forever on a resurrected earth with the resurrected Jesus.
As someone who's basically watched and seen everything the Bible Project has made, I'd say some of your criticisms of Tim are good, spot on.
Others, just not so good, especially if you're assuming what he's communicating.
But anyway. We move!
Well this video has one major flaw, he is only using OLD content and hasn't even brought up anything new or even in Tim's follow-up sermons and podcasts. There was a lot of potential to this but too bad that a lot was thrown away.
It’s weird, because the Bible Project’s teachings and layouts of the books of the Holy Bible still seem to be so blessed and informative.
And yet the videos on his sermon channel I never really watched for too long 🤔
Looks like I was lead to dodge some bullets 🤣🥳
To listen to this single individual is to vex your own soul. You might want to look at the entire Body of Work and actually question your western culture Christianity handed down from the off shoot of the Catholic Church!
Might be better off rockin with Jesus and and Hebrew Bible.
Great thoughtful video. I agree that Mackie has an outside the traditional view of hell. What I’d like us to consider is that issues such as these have been debated for millennia. On both sides it should be a debate of belief not a statement of factual conclusions. Secondly, is it worth debating? There are many mysteries not explained in the Bible. Would this kind of knowledge be essential to righteous action? My sense is that Mackie finds his interpretation an easier sell to his Portland community. Much easier to adapt the message of the gospel to modern culture than to educate modern culture about profound differences between modern western and ancient eastern culture, context and language which make it very difficult for an American to open a Bible a make sense of it. Finally I’d like to see more humility and less dogma in general. If we consider the numerous theological differences across time and Christiandom there has to be a better way of discernment than western deductive reasoning.
Try reaching out to Tim and have a discussion for clarification and understanding 🙏