the Myth of Guitar Tuning with Tom Bukovac and Joe Glaser
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- Tuning is the one thing that will take down a player. There is an expectation for perfection, and it can destroy players mentality when they get to recording. Tom Bukovac and Joe Glaser break it all down for us. Perfection is boring, and intonation is a fallacy.
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Hilariously, you don’t learn any of this when you first start learning guitar, and if your teacher is very traditional and theory oriented, you’ll be playing all the notes in a chord every time wondering why it sounds bad, or at least not like the artist played it, for years. New guitarist are very lucky to have the resources they have today and are able to learn about triads, double stops, and videos like this right from the get go.
This is what makes some of the gospel singers so compelling imo, they will sing those natural overtones, the sweet ones, that ‘technically’ are out of tune if you were to measure in equal temperament. Same with bending or slide, its a super fine line between out of tune, in tune but out with the interval (like a third) and sweetened or in tune with the natural harmonic overtone
Hey, you're on to something! I'm not a good singer, and from now on, I'm going to say that I'm doing these overtones and that's the reason I sound out of tune. 😂
This is just epic! Pure honesty. No BS. Two of the best 🙌♥️
Wow! This came out of nowhere and it's a fantastic conversation between two professors of the guitar. So much knowledge to unpack.
I always say "when someone says they want to learn the guitar" learn how to tune it , and get really good at it .
Not really
This topic has been discussed for several hundred years, so it didn't exactly come out of nowhere.
@blindsidedka The video, dozy one,not the topic.
Paul Rothchild and I had a similar talk. He had just informed me he was giving up his side gig as musical instrument distributor of which I was his west coast rep..[Taylor, Alembic, Larrivee, Augustino, Travis Bean, Bartolini]. I trusted his advice and always took it, except once. He urged me not to work for Stills. "He's a great guy, but simply too demanding". After a few months I realized he was wrong. We got along beautifully. Then, under the hot lights of the Hollywood Bowl, he stopped mid tune, looked over at me and loudly asked, "Who tuned this guitar? Helen Keller?"
I was mortified, but it still cracked me up. I turned to Slack, Finnigan's keyboard roadie "Guess what, you're our new guitar tuner." He didn't need a scope..his ears were perfect. Everyone was happy. Great channel here.
Another thing I found over many years is some guitars like different tunings. I have a 50’s Stella 12 string i rebuilt the tuners and bridge. It still didnt’ hold tune well. Then I tuned it to open G, it loves it! My LP seems to like half step down. My Guild Acoustic has so far never been out of double drop D. I don’t know why some guitars like different tunings but have found it true!
Could have to do with natural resonant frequencies.
Now that's a great point. I'm sure you're correct and it's just a matter of finding those tunings
Jorma Kaukonen told me once that these very imperfections in the guitar are exactly what gives it it’s charm.
He's so great.
THIS is the stuff that needs to be talked about. Instinctively avoiding a 3rd on top. Man, I can’t tell you how huge of a thing that is.
Michael, would you have a second to explain what that means (avoiding the 3rd on top)? How do you do it? All of Joe and Tom's wisdom is so valuable - I would like to try to learn this. TIA
Instead of playing the third note In a given chord or scale on the top string they’ll play it elsewhere on the neck in order to have it play in the “middle” of a chord.
@@codyjackson3365 Thanks. Makes sense. But I will need an extra hand!
So what's a 3rd in top? Like in a triad where the 3rd is on the top string of the chord? Am I figuring this right? I don't know much theory but that seems like the logical answer?
Lmao didn't realize I just asked the same thing. Glad to know I figured it out. 😂
Wish this was 20 minutes longer! Such goodness!
2 hours on the website!
Like in most situations...context is key. The out-of-tuneness of a guitar can add character, but can also ruin things. It all depends.
When in tune, you can always push the strings a little harder if you want that "movement". True Temperament was invented in Sweden so maby I´m biased, but i seriously can´t understand why this revolutionary invention isn´t more well known? Tradition, slander? Give it an hones try, you will thank me!
:)
I get the math of temper and intonation. Microtonal frets are one solution. I also get the frustration of losing tuning mid performance. The EverTone bridges seem to have sorted this problem out, so all hope is not lost.
Yessss! Just pulled the tuner off my board. Got room another transparent drive now!
Two good dudes; they ain't nothing but interesting and kind. We love you guys.
Absolutely interesting, thank you
Your point is well taken about many popular records being a little of of tune. That said though there is something extremely satisfying about a guitar where the G and D chords really jive well together, it's the acid test of guitar tuning in my opinion.
it's hard to get the open chords and fretted chords to be in tune and jibe at the same time
Yes and then maybe tweak things a bit to get E (not minor) to sound better. My ear hears mainly 2 sets of "adjusted standard tuning" I wanna try to hit: G and D, then E and A, and sometimes C as a 3rd tonal center.
My friend, neighbor, jam partner and great bass player Rick Lojacono invented the Earvana string compensating nut. I don’t really understand the science behind it but it really does work. He personally put one on my Tele and you really don’t even notice it’s different from the stock nut and he didn’t have to alter the original nut slot.
Great discussion about truth, limitation and acceptance.
Nice ✌🏽🌻
The casual assertion that there will not be humans in 400 years sent me! 🤣👌🏼
Thanks for the insight. Much respect...
I found this interesting and something we all struggle with. Foreigner’s It feels like the first time has the 3rd on the top for the main riff…. Play that and make it sound in tune… damn hard.
So true... and once you start listening closely for it you can drive yourself nuts sometimes.
Extremely interesting discussion. This makes sense and answers a lot of questions.
In physics there is the Uncertainty principal; the more you know where a particle is the less you know its direction and velocity, and the more you know its direction and velocity, the less you know where it actually is. Says the more you know one thing the less you know the other. Can never know both at the same time. Also in physics, a type of
fractal called Cantor dust, the more you slice down the middle there will always be more left to slice forever. Plus you look at thermodynamics the laws of heat.
Thank you! imperfections are great in songs, human even!
THANK YOU I REALLY THOUGHT I WAS LOSING A GOSH DANG MIND
It's not about being in tube.. its about being in tune with eachother at the time
One way to help. Tune open string.
Tune 5th fret
Tune at 10th or 12 fret.
Then you can optimize the tuning.
Plus a note has what is called a”node”. Meaning that when it sounds pure it could be sharp or flat and still sound pure.
Tuning with a snark tuner. Just because it shows in tune doesn’t mean it is.
That’s where the node comes in.
When I tune a note I check other areas.
In other words if I tune the E string I’ll check the A note on the E string. The tuner shows it’s out I correct it. The E string still shows in tune.
Nothing used to be perfectly in tune but digital/midi changed that… I’m glad to know the pros struggle with tuning also
Even temperament has blinded all our ears to real tuning and everybody is too damm reliant on electronic tuners.The guy that taught me the most about tuning used to call it sweetening. He would get the whole guitar in tune and then fine tune the overtones across the octaves by ear until the resonant frequencies were all working together. Biggest example of this was always the g string which is never in tune on the guitar. He would first "Sweeten" the high e and b strings and get them sounding right by tuning them against the d string fretted to e. Then fretting the e at the g he would micro adjust the g string up until the harmonics were sweet, checking it against the b string fretted to g as well. He would then apply the same cross checks across the whole guitar. Made all the world of difference. It would most likely fall apart if he was playing with a lot of weird key with tons of sharps and flats but for C, D, G, F, Em and Am it was god like and he had this old Martin that would sing..
OMG, I've had that same conversation 100 times in my 71 years on the planet. The guitar is not a perfect instrument, it can't be. Here's another one, the tall narrow frets allow better tuning than short fat ones. The fret itself takes up space on the board. LOL I gave up years ago, now its close enough for rock and roil!! LOL Peace... --gary
But it is very possible to have your axe in perfect tune, from the first fret to the 24, you just can't do it yourself.
You must have got tom at a good time..no disagreement there ❤
I wasted years obsessing over my guitars action, neck relief, intonation, ECT. I learned now to keep my setup simple and consistent. By rules I keep my neck almost straight. String height about 2mm on the low e and 1.8 on the high e. Now I play instead of obsess.
I’ve always felt Tuning is relative. Relative to the relationship between each note being played and from which string it’s being played on. Relative to the voicing used. Relative to the other instruments being played at the same time. Relative to each individual instrument. Relative to what’s being said, and who’s listening. There’s experiments done on the outcomes of specific situations recreated digitally/perfectly, when someone was watching and when no one was watching, and the outcomes were different from each other. Could tuning be like that? Tuning is beautiful…
I'm a producer but also a guitar player. When I started mixing acoustic guitars with all my piano/synth libraries the tuning issue started driving me mad. I actually began favoring my libraries and didn't use guitar if I didn't have too. Since then, I've split the difference by tolerating the limits of tuning and using Melodyne.
The last sentence said it all, perfectly!
My fav RY Cooder song is "out of tune", thats the beauty of it.
Once I'm up to pitch I always play a dmin7 chord and tweak the g and b strings to make it sound right. I know the g string is a little flat, but that's the only way that those what I call Van Halen chords are going to sound right.
I love this video. I do all my own guitars right out of the box. I play Epiphone '59's and I have a Slash and a 50's STD. I do nut micro filing slots if necessary, I file all the excess meat off the nut, so they look like a Custom shop Gibson nut, I do the action, intonation, and put graphite in the nut slots (just a smidge of pencil dust), and I get my guitars so all those 3rd's ,5th's , from stem to stern, are damn close, I especially want that "Hendrixy" thing spot on , like the open A string with the C# note at the 11th fret on the D, and the same with the E open string, D open string. I go OCD on that shit and I love doing it and play all those so called "nighmare " harmony notes and they're damn close.
This is accurate information, though I think that the exposition could be a little clearer. One consequence of this inharmonicity - every fundamental generating its own overtone series, with only the octave harmonics being perfectly in tune, and only with that fundamental - is that a guitar that is as close as possible to 'in tune' in one key may be significantly out of tune if the player modulates to a different key. As a result, all workable guitar tunings are compromises. It's also why tuning using harmonics sometimes doesn't work as well it should, theoretically.
One way to test that the tuning (tempered) on guitar is imperfect. Tune a nice rich sounding major 3rd with the open G and B string. Now fret the the G string at the 4th fret. It will be quite out compared to the open B string.
Most non musicians ( and even many musicians, myself included ) simply won't notice and furthermore - don't care - if a few notes aren't perfectly in tune. It simply doesn't matter. For example: I remember, Brian May talking about some guitar harmonies at the end of Bohemian Rhapsody that always bothered him because he said they were out of tune. As a musician, I've listened to that song 1000 plus times and never noticed it. And now I know the bit he's talking about....It didn't spoil my enjoyment of the piece, one iota. We are talking "levels" of perfection here - and as they said at the beginning - Chuck Berry and The Beatles made music that appealed to People - not Studiophiles. Music isn't about perfection. It's about "what feels good to the Ears".
So the issue is for the player, more so than the casual listener. When I’m playing, I can immediately hear if I’m not perfectly in tune. It’s distracting and makes it harder to feel inspired.
...........Thank you guys........the best any guitarist can hope for is almost in tune...........if almost in tune was good enough for Classical Guitar virtuoso Andres Segovia .......the rest of us mere mortal guitarist don't have to sweat and worry about being a couple of cents out of tune........Jimi,Jeff and Allen didn't let it stop them......
An interesting fact about The Beatles too, they'd played the shit out of their guitars so much that by the time Get Back came along, John's Casino was virtually unplayable due to the lack of fret work and maintenance. When he tried using it for Imagine he couldn't stand it anymore. There's little record of any regular maintenance being done on their instruments.
Just testing out an Earvana nut for the first time, hoping for a noticeable change...
How did it work out?
This video absolutely made my day !!
Buzz Feiten work for you? I have a nut on one of my guitars and it sure fixes things nicely. Even tuning a guitar without the Buzz Feiten System brings it closer to perfect.
Tried it?
TNX!
Plus the position of the guitar is very important. It’s different sitting down as opposed to standing. Every time you move it changes the tuning.
Added: A acoustic piano is not a source for tuning. Unless you tune to A440. Note.
That’s A 4
A 0 is the first A on the piano.
Second A is called A 1.
The piano has a stretch in the tuning meaning the notes aren’t mathematically perfect.
Around A 440 it’s very close.
Bass gets flat
Treble gets sharp.
Using a guitar tuner you probably could get away with tuning a piano in the middle section.
Thirds on a guitar are a booger. Love this video!
My first tuner was a fork. My teacher taught me to tune across the fretboard. I never really noticed my guitar being out of tune until I started using an electric tuner and then it drove me crazy. I looked up all the tuning tricks to try to get it right, flat the g string a semitone, etc. I finally went to an earvana nut and use hybrid across the fret board and octave tuning method. It's pretty dang close when I can hear it. On stage I'm sol.
That only fixes the bottom of the neck, you need to have the bridge adjusted as well
@@davekiddie4467 oh yeah ... Intonation is on... I have played with a little bit of temper tuning as well. The Seymour Duncan site has an article on intonating the three piece tele bridge that is interesting. I have applied some of that theory too...
i put a super deep scallop on one of my strat fingerboards and after some time with that i found myself inherently squeezing some notes into tune
“There will not be humans in 400 years”
Jesus will be back by then brother. No one knows exactly when but the earth as we know it is in its last hour.
Great conversation and information. Is Joe related to Tompall?
Can't discuss tuning a friggin' guitar without touching on the planet dying.
Did he say ‘humans won’t be here for 400 more years’?
Yes, he's a Doomsday cultist.
@@hansemannluchter643 I guess we'll have ostriches
@@floepiejane We already have...They have their heads solidly planted up the doomsday cultists behinds.
Yeah Jesus will be back by then brother, that’s a long time away. Look at how evil our world is right now, I can’t imagine it in 50 years.
Fascinating and especially timely today, given the tyranny of tuning software. This discussion goes back (Bach?) to at least "The Well Tempered Clavier." Tuning is, as Tom points out, a matter of finding the best "least worst" tuning - not least of all because tunings can be tempered to be useful in a variety of keys. Many people are unaware that an F# and a Gb are not necessarily the same pitch in all situations (look it up, folks). Yes, they are the same key on a piano, so the pianist has no choice; but the actual pitch that key sounds is a matter of temperament of the instrument decided upon long ago. So it can be an additional abomination to auto-tune un-tempered instruments (like the human voice) which are capable of going exactly where the ear tells them the note is right for the key they're singing in. If it sounds good, it is good.
"This instrument, the guitar, is never perfectly in-tune." ~ Wes Montgomery
I heard someone say music got worse after the invention of electronic tuners. That musicians used to tune themselves with a tuning fork or a pitch pipe, or against the piano. And they would touch up the tuning of their instrument in between takes, against their instrument. This created a wider area of being "in tune" which allowed vocalists and soloists to push and pull pitch for emotional effect.
If that were superior don’t you think serious artist would use a tuning fork? That sounds like some it was better back in my day! I have heard of some people doing sweetened tunings but it’s a deep rabbit hole
I remember when i got my first guitar, an acoustic in high school and had only a fork to tune. We are spoilt these days. I can still do it, but im not really accurate enough so i use electronic tuner, heck i can even do it with my phone!
@@kane6529 what do string players in an orchestra tune to, and how do they tune the strings on their instrument?
I like what you're saying here. I look at every tuning with or without a digital tuner as an opportunity to improve my ear AND apply what I've learned and discovered about relative tuning. Gotta listen, observe and reconcile...
@@ata5855An A taken from the oboe, then they tend to tune the open strings in 5ths from the harmonic series. When they play with piano they compromise because, like guitar, piano is equal temperament.
i remember Edwrd VH saying it way back . . His guitars were never in tune , just strings relatively close to where it sounded good for the song being recorded .Mike Anthony just agreeing and tuning to whatever Edward was . .I love my Sg special and it's all about compromise with the wrap around , some fanger finagling and patience. . . Nice , i need to get some of my guitars up to Glaser soon , hate the 2 hour drive
One of the reasons many sampled guitars sound fake is because the sound designers went in and tuned every note. On a real guitar, there are at least five places to play any given note in the same octave and each will have a slightly different set of harmonics. That doesn't mean we can't play in tune; 'sweetening' offsets and the Feiten system can help, but it really just comes down to one's ear and one's instrument. I came to guitar from the saxophone, where again nearly none of the notes are perfectly in tune and the amount and direction of adjustment changes with the key. Tuning is applied with lip pressure on the fly; that's just how it's done.
Guitarists are always chosing voicings to avoid sour intervals! My buddy always mutes the lower 3rd in the open C shape, it's too muddy in that octave, and will do E shape bar chords without the A string for a chimier sound (of course, playing the root with thumb instead of actually barring!)
Mellow yellow I luv it!! . Awesome stuff Guyz . Yep lets not sweat the big stuff...lmao!!
Perfect video length
Tuning is cultural, historical, and pretty much impossible even if there was a consensus. Learned that at UCSB, eg Arabic music is more 'in tune' with the harmonic overtone series. We Westerners have been fudging it for a few hundred years with our various temperaments. Pythagorean, Mean tone, Equal, fascinating shit blew my mind when I was introduced. Also, bought a lot of sin-forgiveness! Can't even 'push' a guitar string down to fret it without stretching it!
I had a Rickenbackef 12 string that actually stayed in tune with rusty strings and did'nt like new strings, it was like a piano, maybe because we used 12s on the top E?
Use an electric tuner, then make sure all your chords sound good. The high strings will always need a little tweak. (Bend individual notes up and down)
Play your E A and D shapes everywhere (use the octaves). Get used to what the chord sounds like, not each tuned string
If you tune a string openly very precise using a good digital tuning machine and after that play any tone further up on that string, you will probably notice on the tuning machine that it’s always a little off. That’s just inherent to any guitar until some luthier invents a fix for that.
I'm reminded of the lovely, ethereal, somewhat out of tune sounds of the mellotron. It adds great character to those classic tracks from the 60s and 70s.
thanks for that
Joe Glaser, one of the epic Nashville dudes. "There will not still be humans in 400 years.."
So interesting 😮 thanks guys
Its hard to get TRULY tuned right just based on all the variables. between the action being to high, how the wood and frets are warping or wearing and a multitude of other things. I find that there is a sweet spot you can manage but you have to learn it on your specific guitar. The closer you get the better. But im convinced its impossible to completely have in tune open strings and fretting on certain spots. I always have to chrck if the string is sharp or too flat when i press on it on certain frets and when open to find the spot on a tuner that sounds passable for both.
Straight up wisdom
It’s not just a guitar thing. The equal temperament that western music is built on is a compromised tuning system (well, they all are, really). Your thirds will always sound off if you listen for it. Even on a digital piano with it’s “perfect” tuning. Then you add the other idiosyncrasies of the guitar, where even simply fretting a note bends the string microtonally out of pitch… and you add to that the fact that different string gauges will bend out of pitch to different degrees, so when you fret a full chord, all your strings are bending out of tune each to a different degree. The mind filters most of it out as long as it’s not extreme, but once you really listen for it, and start hearing it, it’s really hard to Not hear it and let your mind ignore it like it normally should. Some days, even when I have everything tuned as perfectly as it ever could be (or even if I’m playing a perfectly tuned digital keyboard), I will be hearing those dissonant equal temperament compromises so clearly (especially the 3rds) that I have to just stop playing for the day.
Uncle Larry: “Yep, prrrretty much won’t ever be able to get these things in tune. Sucks.”
… proceeds to play most in tune tune you’ve ever heard
I like being in tune as much as anyone, but you get to a point of diminishing returns. Where the tuning isn’t improving anything. Your energy is better focused in other places
In Standard tuning we tune the major 3rd 13.69 cents sharp (just tuning would be 386.31, we tune to 400 cents about the unison note). Is this not the reason the major 3rd always sounds sharp?
Well I had recorded a guy once who refused to use a tuner because he was so good. He was horrible. But he was so offended that he refused. So there is getting it as close as you can and it will be what it is, but let's at least get it close. lol. Pianos are actually not tuned perfectly and if they were they would sound odd. Tuning is a great topic. There is no perfect, but close is perfectly good.
Tommy , I only found you a couple years ago. Thank you for what I've learned in class. I've been playing for 45 years.
✌💀👍🎸🎼🧠🌌♾⚡
No - most people can't hear the difference. What is going on is multiple things - - - the neck has to be straight and the bridge needs to be only high enough for the strings to clear so that you don't hear choking out. Also the nut needs to be the same because if your guitar's not set up properly in both the action and intonation it won't sound right! It has absolutely nothing to do with the guitar itself in the make or model or the nature of the instrument. The heavier gauge strings will also have a more solid timbre than the lighter gauge strings will which it will throw off the sound of your guitar.
I've been both a musician and luthier for over thirty years and I can't tell you how many guitars that I had to set up again because the owner had someone set it up but the way that the either whoever set it up liked or the manufacturers' recommendations. Too often it's not set to the way that the player prefers in action and this can affect your feel and the way that you play. It's not science it's simple logic and understanding along with experience that will show you the proper way to set up your guitar for optimal performance every time.
Duane Allman was incredible but they say he played slide out of tune a lot. I bet he did. Didn't matter. He was still the greatest guitar player that ever lived.
I think after quite a few years of playing, I think I tend to slightly pull stuff in tune.
the transient of a guitar note is 2-3 cents sharper than the decay. you tune to the decay, but people are listening to transient. guitars are inevitably sharp when played in tune
"There will not be humans in four hundred years". That wins the most ridiculously statement of the day hands down.
Oh - you tell um.... let um have it!!!
“Ridiculously statement”? I think we have a new winner.😉
Doomsday cultist misanthropy. 🤮
@@chrislestermusic I always have to win. 😂
Are we just accepting that the end truly is nigh now? The nonchalance of that statement hit me as well. We all know it, but to hear it like that... Wow. Live your best lives, people ❤
No one’s favorite record will be Chuck Berry in 50 years.
in tune sure does sound good though...... equal tempered tuning is pretty bad at times, especially the 3rds are always gratingly sharp. Its not just guitars. If you're not playing with a piano or something, one can 'tune to the key' ie. tune the g string a little flat if you are in 'E' so that g sharp note sits a little nicer. listen to an early music choir singing in pure tuning,
that shit is tight.....
Nashville is way over obsessed with tuning, modern “country” music sounds like auto-tuned library tracks
That was some deep shit
Everything is out of tune. It's frustrating. 3rds sound better as 6ths and 10ths instead. The distance between these latter intervals is such that the intonation problems can be detected lesser.
Physical Graffiti would suck if it was in tune.
We can never switch keys and have perfect intervals at the same time, it's impossible. There's a lot of micro tonal music on RUclips these days that really try and push just intonation intervals to their limit (no pun intended). Fretted or keyed instruments just cannot do it, just intonation follows the harmonic series, not any one defined EDO. it's a rabbit hole you can get lost down forever, and it's certainly a wonderful one.
Nature is not square.😀
or plumb, level, or parallel :)
As guitar players, we have come to accept the limitations of our instrument. We can geek out over it, but most human ears are not as refined as others. And indeed, our listener's ears are less developed. IMHO the worse thing to happen to music development has been autotuning for vocals. Part of what makes a song have an emotional impact is the variations in the pitch ( within reason, of course ). The guitar is the same unless it is really whacked-out tuning wise our ears have become accustomed to those variations. I mean Leo Fender wanted his amps to be clean, but as any guitar player knows, a cranked Tweed Deluxe is beautiful.
Great video
Just need some movable frets like the old lute players
can't trust tuners 100% either ...like the point about the F# in the D chord
True Temper necks man.They work. It still isnt perfect though .Actually it kind of is just putting the dirt under another part of the carpet, but its a much better part of the carpet if you get my drift.
Tim Pierce says play right on the fret.
interesting
that is to minimize the pressure if you get when you press in the middle.
Isn't this all due to equal temperament? A real harmonic 3rd is off from the fretted 3rd and it's meant to be.
Maybe solid slide players with a good ear are more in tune than the rest?!