Well besides armistice zones having to disappear altogether, alongside implementing competent npcs that can act as security/police throughout cities, it's really a permission system they need to work on. Ownership should not go immediately to someone else at the press of a button WITHOUT the permission of the owner. The owner should have to give/authorize the trade/handoff. Implementing something like that would be enough for removing the single button press problem. The only recourse left for the 'thief' party should be having to physically move the items into either their own elevator, or a ship they have snuck in. It will be up to the thief to trick the victim into allowing them to bring up their elevator in the victims own hangar. A proper permission system will let the owner authorize who they choose to use facilities on their property.
"Make cargo easily stolen, means we get emergenmt gameplay, the sort we dont have to pay to develop" "Why is literally nobody doing the cargo missions we spent thousands of staff hours developing" They tend not to think things through very well at times. Apparently its up to us to protect cargo, but there are no simple tools with which to do so, stuff that IRL have exsited for decades. Vehicle kets, pin codes and the like. And if that makes things harder for "that sort", I can live with that because at this level it simply empowers the troublemakers who simply want to spoile somone else' day.
Best way to fix this would be to have the pads lower underground and close up top then have the elevator down there so you can load in peace but still have the risk of being jumped trying to leave.
Yeah. I was thinking about the same and instead of just landing pads, they could probably add a landing hanger (or two) for cargo loading. Like how we have in distribution centers
Yeah, I even asked on SCL. Multiple people have asked how to protect cargo, and that guy said the question was "how are YOU going to protected your cargo?" and the answer is, without some changes, I'm not. I'll just get jacked and I can't defend it at all, so why bother? Without a chance, there's no point to even play it, a pointless addition.
Why cant you defend it? I'd have a couple buddies with guns watching the elevator while I load the ship up... if someone flies in amd tries to steal, then they are gonna get pumped full of lead.
@@StreeZeR__ They are discussing a bug discovered during the testing phase, where it is possible to steal all of someone's cargo on a freight elevator by going up to the console and sending it down again. That transfers ownership to you. However, it is during the testing phase, so it isn't really an issue; this is when these things are supposed to be discovered.
it's funny when things like this happend, and then we had Lando in last ISC saying "we are discussing and seeing the problem 12 weeks before you are". yeeeet here we are... ^^
With all the changes coming I love how things are being polished and finally realized, but the cargo loading that way just shows how they lack awareness. Knowing that they want to push players to 'hire' AI and enlist friends for these things the value in the gameloop simply does not justify it. I can very easily workout the mental flow of robbing someone who has to spend an HOUR loading up their ship with a tractor beam that can destroy the ship with one desync BEFORE even flying it out with the added CONSTANT risk of being robbed. As the thief it's either pop for an easy loot grab OR better yet wait for them to load and just steal the ship. 2 hours for quarter a mil in profit vs 30 mins and FULL profit. It's like they just brainstorm 'fun scenarios' on a white board, throw a dart and develop without actually trying it out in game first.
"PvP, where players with better ships will hold an advantage, only makes up a fraction of the game, and that players can opt out entirely if they want." ~ Chris Roberts, PCGamer 2018
Lowering elevator is definitely a glaring problem. Hangers would need ability to be locked so you can load and unload in privacy. Pads out in the open come with inherent risks but that risk should scale with also ability to defend. Cargo should not be safe in non armistice zones. Cargo should be safe in armistice zones. Hopefully cargo ownership is a thing the game can track in the "legal system" and have the system correctly detect if things are being stolen vs being transferred. If someone steals from you, you can retaliate.
Thoughts on simply removing armistice and allowing players to solve these problems themselves? I believe armistice zones work against players in most situations where piracy\thievery\griefing is possible.
I don't have any reference of other games where this works. The problem here is preserving both the armistice zone and allow only the designed owner to control the elevator.. you could let only the first user to operate the console, but someone could still steal the exposed crates. An idea could be the ability to raise some kind of fence around the pad? activable from the cargo console?
@@CallMeTeach2 And what would all those friends do when someone runs across the armistice zone to lower the lift? Yell at them, wave their weapons threateningly, perform a dance choreography?
@@CallMeTeach2 "Get some friends" is the biggest load of bull I've seen from anyone who defends this kind of gameplay. Why should a lone pirate be able to steal an entire cargo hold's worth of goods for very little effort and 90% profit while the trader has to have "friends" in which he needs to divide the 250k auec up and overall make less than a single pirate. If a trader needs friends to do a trade run and split profits then a pirate needs friends to steal that and put in some actual effort.
600 bug fixes. I do not have any confidence in the changes to the cargo and inventory system at all right now. And thankfully I don't think CIG does either as they're starting to walk some of those changes back on PTU following feedback. That in itself I'm happy about.
@@UniversityofStanton likewise, ill take the bug fixes, and then maybe we have a chance of fixing problems and other bugs that have been in the game for 4-5 years at this point
I don't think one second CIG didn't think at that (protection of the area). They set up game systems without adding the conterparts. Since 2016 that I've been following the game, it's always been like this, in fact they never go to the end of things, i'm afraid it's part of there DNA.
They don’t care. Their mistakes allows them to extend development time, offering job security and more time to rake in millions more from idiotic players.
To me this just sounds like an oversight in player ownership permissions, a scenario they didn't think of. Here's to hoping they fix it sooner rather than later.
Exactly my point unfortunately. These are scenarios that should've been thought out on whiteboards, on paper, before code, code review, and internal testing. The lack of foresight is staggering.
Even if the cargo is marked stolen, it is still a lot of profit for the thief. He did not pay for the cargo, so anything he can sell it for is his reward.
@@UniversityofStanton In CIG's defense, they are supporting two contradictory goals: safe handling of cargo to prevent exploits and so on, and the ability to steal that cargo to support criminal game loops. When doing this you often have to err on the one side or the other and it's easy to miss something. I have a hunch that, given recent history, CIG are trying their damndest to prevent another cargo exploit and so stuff like this creeps in.
@@Max_Cony umm what? So many ways to tackle it like give a CS to anyone not in party beaming the cargo from your elevator as that is stealing. Not really a brainer tbh.
@@dhwajgoyal How would giving CS to anyone beaming the cargo would prevent that? Pirates have CS anyways. And this doesnt solve the button press on terminal issue
yea 2 problems here. The control over the elevator, and ability for other people to tractor cargo out. Both could be fixed by making the pad+elevator its own private zone like an armistice for others, assigned to the owner+party of the one that pulled up the cargo. Once someone else touched the control panel, the remaining cargo in the elevator would first stored back into original owner inventory and then private zone restriction lifted. After that its free to use for the other player. Its main mechanics/code could be borrowed from private hangars, where others are not allowed to enter for example. To bring along a buddy to guard the control panel is no option, there are a lot of people that solo the game, having a friend popup at moment notice in starcitizen is not something many people have. The ability to do cargo relative safely is something imo solo player should be possible to do. Multiplayer is not a fix for all stupid problems this has to be done in another way.
But trying to solo a game that's meant to be multiplayer should bring risks. Sure you CAN do almost anything solo, but without someone to watch your back then you risk getting ganked. Only thing I would change is put the same law on the cargo in the elevator as is on cargo on a ship cargo grid, and change that button press to make it go back to the original player's inventory. Oh and remove all armistice outside of landing zones
@@LuismaLorca But not stealing cargo in an armistice zone. That's the worst of all possible worlds: no security, and no self-help security. If you have magic AZs, you need AI security; otherwise you need to get rid of the AZs and introduce self-help justice. To allow theft but have AZs and no AI security is just brain-dead game design.
Just watch that official star citizen video where the guy said “I’m not here to hold your hand”… what an absolute insult on top of a half assed implementation like everything else they add to the game, barebones content. With respect. ♥️
@@UniversityofStanton SC Q&A Making missions II-2 @ 55:46 Have to admit, watching it back, it doesn’t sound as bad as when I heard it the first time. I was looking at it from too wide of a scope. He’s just a mission guy and from a mission POV, it makes sense. My issue is more fundamental game mechanics that I would presume that particular dev has no say or part in.
Don't get annoyed about bad mistakes like the hangar storing issue showing up in Evocati testing. All this testing and Issue Council reporting stuff is for real, it isn't for show! I have been Evocati since 3.0, and I have seen many issues of that level. This is the whole point of Evocati; testing the game in an unplayable state and reporting the issues that make it unplayable. When client side OCS first came out, the system was so buggy that we spent the first week literally running out of the habs at Olisar and seeing how far down the stairs towards the ASOP terminals we could get before the client crashed. We all just put in as many hours as possible every day for more than a week repeating that 20 meter run, over and over and over again, giving the devs enough crash logs to find all the null-pointers (or whatever it was), slowly getting further and further until one day we managed to spawn a ship, then immediately crashed when we opened it, then again when we took off. Then again... (Yeah, that was a really bad round, the memory is still painful 😆). We were all sworn to total secrecey (actual legal NDA has to be signed and mailed in to get Evocati access), so not many of these stories have come out before, but Evocati receive and expect to receieve completely unplayable patches. So, a bug like being able to steal cargo by lowering the lift is minor from the perspective of Evocati. Remember, the devs are really working hard at fixing things during Evocait, the patches come often (there have been times we got several per day) and a lot of stuff gets fixed. Even once the PTU comes out, there is still a lot of debugging going on. Evocati are those that have signed up for the worst experience possible to push the game forwards faster, but once the game is at least somewhat playable it immediately goes on to PTU. Even at this stage, a bug like being able to steal cargo by lowering the hangar would be reasonable, PTU players can mostly test the game despite that bug. The real issue is if something like this goes out to the Live servers. So if you find a bug like this, make sure it gets many reproductions by giving your viewers the link to the specific issue council report so that it gets the attention it needs. It will get fixed. This is why Evocati/PTU exists; we don't want this stuff in the live servers!
planned on auto load anyway... im not playing janga cargo or pushing boxes and have no interest in tractor beams or the like... and I won't be forced to play with others if I don't want to... I'm not a team player...
Griefer's Paradise No way that nobody on the inside sees this coming. Probable that someone said something. Almost certain that the apparent danger was dismissed due to a lack of tools necessary to solve it and the time and effort required to build any. They cannot even make the stuff they want to work work What chance do they have of making other things work?
They did address this and basically said "bring backup", knowing that you'd be getting cargo at open places. The issue about lowering the cargo yeets it into the thiefs inventory is def a problem that needs solving though. I dont think the former is a bug but intestinally there for the added risk for these missions.
That is my thoughts as well. They want you to work as a team (not play it like a single player game), thus you will need friends to protect the cargo in the open world. I find that an acceptable gameplay loop. The button press to steal cargo definitely needs to be fixed though.
We know about this problem for 2 week now if not more, yet no response or acknowledgement form CIG. Really makes you wonder what happens behind the scenes
Agree with all! Sadly I was late posting my question on the Q/A, and it didn't make it on the recording, but I asked the same questions, plus ill like to know what will happen with the starfarer and the cargo missions that involve fuels, ill leave that question here for your consideration.
Piss easy to fix. Keep the owner of any cargo box static… Call the elevator down, and then back up again, and it’s got Player 1s cargo on it?? It’s STILL owned by player one… steal it, cop a crimestat. If player one makes player 2 wait around to use the same elevator… well.. maybe player 2 should A: help player one load it.. B: shoot player 1 throw the cargo elsewhere, load his own stuff, deal with he resulting crimestat… or something thereof. But MORE LIKELY (because far less headaches..) is player 2 who is waiting to use the elevator, helps player 1 unload it, in return player 1 gets away either, or maybe helps player 2 and a new friendship is born… What makes SC AMAZING is emergent gameplay! And finding ways to deal with all the errant bugs and not loosing ones mind over the bugs lol. The issue seems to be purely a programming one… the state of the cargo isn’t fixed. That should take the coder boys no time to fix.. and it IS still in evocati!
Many sites only have small elevators and you need several passes to get all the cargo you bought up and down. Cargo needs to be moved to your warehouse automatically in this case. And if there is a button to move it, the thief can use that too.
You're not supposed to interact with other people's ASOP or cargo terminals, the issue is that this is just a bug on Evocati and some people like to be excessively melodramatic.
@@LuismaLorca that still doesn't address the issue of the pirate just yoinking the cargo to their own ship, with negligible risk or controls against it.
Path of Exile has a robust trade mechanic that pretty much prevents bad trades. It's a split screen with an upper and lower grid. Seller places the items on one grid, then the buyer places the "money" on the other grid. Both players can hover over the gridded items for a full description. The trade is not finalized until both players check an "Accept" box.
Escrow, exactly. Pretty simple format that a lot of games use. I can't believe we don't have a basic form of this yet. It should've been part of tier 0 inventory right at the start.
There definitely was not a plan for this already. I think CR still thinks that this game is his perfect utopia and that griefers and exploiters don't exist. The last couple of patches have really worn me down. There seems to be no real care put into decisions. Things like raising the cost of ships while lowering the amount players can get from all types of activities feels like them just trying to push people to spend real money. Or something like putting in hull scraping and crunching just to turn around and have the material sold at outposts so the market gets flooded and you can't sell what you just worked on. I could go on and on. It has been a massive kick in the teeth recently.
I think it's a bit humorous that you think CR is concerned about player experience right now. I don't think CIG cares whether the game is fun to play, broken or missing functionality right now. They're just pushing content. As long as they don't lose money, I don't think they care what the state of the PU is in.
CIG said early on that the goal would be that the law systems will be in place to dissuade griefers at these remote outposts, but that was all tied to combat. Pushing a button to skip all punishment is a crazy oversight. This is probably just one of a hundred "oops how do we unfuck that" scenarios they introduced with the cargo stuff that has pushed 3.24 out so long. I dont expect to see 3.24 for a while.
The IC for the issue of stealing in bulk only has 60 upvotes. THIS is a major issue. It's super simple to walk up to the terminal with another's cargo still in the elevator and lower the elevator, thus stealing everything in it. You can also just beam their stuff off and onto your ship, or just walk on their ship since their doors are open, sit in the drivers seat, and take off. They can't do ANYTHING until out of the armistice zone. In regards to stealing the cargo from the elevator, this I don't think is a simple fix. They kind of have a 'who owns the cargo' in the game now, but how do you stop someone from just beaming your stuff from the elevator? You also will have to lock the elevator to stop it from lowering until everything is off, which will cause issues too. People leave their crap everywhere and at the moment it's super easy to obstruct the elevator. I landed my C2 in the middle of the pad at an outpost (one of the few times I could leave the hangar), and I obstructed it. Another issue many are not talking about, outposts can sell 32 SCU boxes, but they don't fit in the elevators, and you can't break them down currently.
All valid points, and part of my point which is that things are simply not being thought through on paper, let alone during coding, during code review, and during internal testing. The concept should at least be THOUGHT out thoroughly before it reaches evocati.
It's a relatively minor bug, you're not supposed to interact with ASOP or cargo terminals from other players. This is a bug report from Evocati. Basically clickbait honestly.
CIG management and their devs suffer from a brainworm called "fuck the players everything has to be physicalised" instead of making the basic choice of "gameifing" certain aspects of the game. Like inventory terminals with all the clicking and animations just to get gear. Personally i dont care having to go to terminals themselfs (since its like a chest or vault in other games) if it was just one click and then the papir doll and stoarge appear. Like minecraft chest and any other game with a chest/storage system
Physicalized cargo and movement of cargo is a core part of the game. Right now, you can land somewhere in a chunky ship, run to the terminal and instantly sell your cargo, quit out of the server, rejoin server or join new server, respawn on station with your player inventory, and insurance claim your ship. Now you have to actually move your cargo out of your ship.
I could see a system by which the player could pay for a security detail to cover him and his cargo while he's loading/unloading - the more he pays, the better/longer the security. After a certain amount of time, the detail packs up and goes home, leaving the player to defend himself (in order to prevent pad campers from tying up a cargo point for too long). Clearly they need to fix the elevator bug you described - either lock other players out of the control pad while security is active and/or security goes hostile, or return the inventory to local inventory so the player can simply to recall the elevator. Nevertheless, a solo player trying to move huge cargo loads should face significant risk which can be mitigated to some degree by paying for local security.
I could see that, and I could see a system like that supported by NPCs - if the server architecture supports NPCs that work. We don't have that yet. We would also need to get rid of armistice zones. This artificial sphere of "you can't defend yourself" has to go away.
Armistice zones are the root of this problem. They can be kept for major cities and stations with hangars - but armistice zones need to go away in outposts. Maybe add turrets or NPCs - they have the technology for this.
DIsabling armistice will not help at all. The trader has his hands full with the tractor, and is likely not prepared for combat, whereas the thief is. The chances that he can kill a thief before being gunned down himself are minimal.
The lone trader that is outplayed by a prepared thief needs to accept the consequences of their own risks he accepted. The issue here is exclusively the ability to basically interact with the console while other player is loading/unloading. Stealing cargo is a valid and good game play loop, but this is an exploit.
@@LuismaLorca I'd argue that in this particular instance, we're talking tracked shipping containers that are supposed to come from the outpost to a destination through a contracted individual. The appropriate solution is that sending the elevator back down, at the location shipping out those materials should put it back in the access of the contract holder, not the thief. Because NOBODY would set their station's cargo system to work in such a way where the ownership of their shipment is suddenly changed based on who pushes an elevator button.
@@carstenschops7797 Solo traders should stick to areas with hangars where they can be more secure (missions going from cities/LEO stations that go from secure hangar to secure hangar are already in 3.24). Outposts without armistice zones would be understood to require scouting/security. Just like how Picker's Field/rRappel and other non-armistice areas work currently.
The issue is ownership in general. If you sit in the illegal salvage pilot seat, it is now your ship and you can tow it away with a greatly diminished crime stat. This can all be fixed with sticky ownership or even sub-ownership. Box belongs to Red Wind, assigned to Steve, and none of those two stats change. Add a third database item of possession if they have to but ownership does not always need to change based on possession. At least 1/10th of the time.
The issue of lowering the elevator and the contents transferring to the inventory of the person that interacted with the button definitely needs to be fixed. That said - I think the cargo should still be exposed to interaction for anyone that chooses to do so, with certain consequences. For example if I try to steal your cargo off your grid, I should get a CS, or some sort of KOS flag so the legitimate owner can defend their possessions without repercussion to themselves. If/when there are guards present, they could also react, or automated defenses associated with the cargo hangar itself, etc. I think it should be possible to do, but be difficult to pull off, and only worth it in specific cases. Or perhaps something like if owner is in x radius you cannot steal off the grid (to troll), but if you choose to kill said owner (and they respawn somewhere else), the cargo should release and you can interact with it (But now you have committed to getting a cs3+). Not sure - but I think limiting player choice is not the way to go.
CIG is in a major push to get things out ASAP. Perhaps the deadline with investors, perhaps something else we are not aware of. Either way, releasing half-baked ideas/mechanics have been a problem for a long time. They didn't even finish the interaction system before releasing it and keeping that way for months. Some ships are missing functionality because of it. Bottom line, I get the impression that CIG places an extremely low priority on the player's experience as of right now. They're just pushing content. Not trying to make anything enjoyable or doing a thorough job. They will continue to not place it a higher priority so long as they keep getting money.
I don’t understand how no one seems ti be trying to “break” anything they can. Maybe they really DON’T play the game as much as we think. There’s a shocking number of gamepads at CIG desks…which explains a lot…
I feel like they almost left it this way to try to encourage multiplayer co-operation on these missions, but what its going to boil down to is that no one will do them because the risk isn't worth the terribly low reward. Nobody is going to want to split the $36K completion reward 4 ways when it took you 45 minutes to load cargo and complete the mission.
Yeah, and it's one of those things where they say, "ohhhh well the rewards in the video are just examples, we'll raise it," and then it'll either end up wildly lucrative or wildly worthless. We'll see if they've "gathered enough data" to make an informed decisions on this screwed economy they're leaving in place at present.
I think it will be the same answer " get good or get an escort " As a solo player that cant spend most of my free time in SC I look at the way game is going and its may kill it if it doesn't look after the solo players. Yes I like playing with people I like the PvE PvP we have adding risk to everyday play. for this problem is easy . IF someone has logged on to the screen and cargo is still on the Elevator no one else can log on. Simple. the screen can only be come free after the last box has been off loaded. ( If grid is full = keep locked , if grid is empty = unlock ) simple flow chart. as for been in the open I think thats part of the game. you have time if you see a ship to store what is on the elevator yourself just in case and or only call up enough cargo that you can load in a short amount of time so that you can lock your ship ( you know with that key fob that was invented back in the 21st century ) you know that App on the Mobi glass so you can stop people walking into your ship and starting it up with out a key or fob or would we have Biometric scanners by then OH wait we had then back in the 21st Century too
Absolutely valid, though I tend to agree with the self defense/bring defense concept. I think that makes for great gameplay (this is an online game) but they shoot it in the foot by having armistice zones and having put no thought into crimestatting or granting kill rights on players who mess with your cargo/trespass in your area.
@@UniversityofStantonexcept in cases where entering a multiplayer game is quick and painless (not SC) the majority of players who play MMOs are solo players. The MMO aspect is majority of the time a “shared solo online experience” rather than actually multiplayer play. Even in most quick and painless entrance multiplayer games, most games rely on matchmaking to bring about PUGS for the short time they are together. In multiplayer games surrounding guilds, even then most play time is solo. You can make the game focus on the multiplayer aspect, but most players playtime even in multiplayer games is solo and relying on matchmade PUGS when multiplayer is necessary. Any loop that requires group play and doesnt have a matchmaking system will happen, but it will happen like old school WoW raids, relatively rarely.
My guess is they didn't know how to handle a case of multiple people's belongings being on the same elevator. So they simplified it to "whoever pushes the button." Probably because the team working on that bit were solely concerned with Personal Hangars.
Wait what? They can Jack your whole cargo load by pressing a button that should be hard locked to your biometrics until cargo is fully loaded? Like ship door access?
The bug with lowering the frieght elevator aside, the fact that cargo can be stolen while loading it (i.e. stolen by someone doing the whole thing and tractoring it away), is not a lack of foresight, it is an experiment. This is still an Alpha and they are still developing the game. They test new things on purpose to see how they are, new mechanics that are far more risky than a completed game could include. Cargo hauling will likely be rewarded for the danger by having very high profits, pulling in those players that are ready to take the risk for a sufficient reward. If it doesn't work out, if it is too risky for anyone to play, they will change it (and change the rewards as well). Cargo hauling in Star Citizen has always been the most heart thumping, adrenaline rush game play there is in Star Citizen, because the stakes are so high. If you lose a C2's worth of cargo, that is several million aUEC lost. There are other game loops for those that want a less stressful activity.
Hey, appreciate the messages and the perspective! However in my book a developer who's had 10 years to get their shit together no longer deserves to have their shortcomings excused by "it's an alpha" :-). Especially when the majority of problems are no longer simply bugs, but poorly understood, poorly thought-out, and poorly executed design decisions. At a certain point it's time to stop falling back on excuses and start putting out working product.
@@UniversityofStanton Are we sure that the trade mechaics with a pirate-accessible loading bay is a bad mechanic though? It hasn't been tried, do you really know what is going to happen? I mean, obviously there is a risk, but how bad will it really be in practice? I think the attempt is worthwhile; if it doesn't work it can be changed. I think that is the main point of still calling it an Alpha; players should expect attempts with new game mechanics in a way that you couldn't do if you called the game "stable". Obviously, it means that players have to be willing to suffer through some experiments that turn out to be bad, but it allows the game to reach much further into unexplored territory than other games.
Oh, I think there is one more important point to remember: Trading in SC is not a laid back, low risk activity like it is in other games. It isn't EuroTruck simulator. It is hard-core intense and nerve-wracking! Trading has often been the most dangerous activity of all, but also the most monetarily rewarding. The last two years, we have had server-crash recovery of your ship contents which has taken a lot of the edge off, but before that, a server crash meant that all your cargo was gone. A buggy QT that took you through the planet meant that all your cargo was gone. A failed store of your ship at a station, resulting in the ship registering in an "undefined" location meant that all your cargo was gone. Or any other of the gazillion bugs that could kill your ship. So whenever you saw a really great opportunity to make a killing by buying lots of high value goods and selling it even more expensively, you were nervous! Really heart-thumping nervous! If you got the cargo past the roulette wheel of bugs, you made a killing. If you lost, you lost weeks worth of grinding aUEC, several millions. Trading was never as popular as when the risks and rewards were the highest! A lot of people crave that game play. There is another kind of game play which is "hauling" rather than "trading". Hauling would be moving someone else's stuff from point A to point B, giving you a fixed reward and no risk of loss at all (except maybe some rep). That is much more the laid-back style of game-play. For trading, what we want is the high risk, high reward game play and we want the risk to not be bugs, i.e. it has to be pirates.
It's not a gameplay choice, it's bringing out a new feature ASAP even when everything it will need later on is still missing, such as guard rails against thieves. Incredible how the game has been in development for 12 years and people STILL haven't learned it. How many decades do you need to learn such a simple concept?
@j.d.4697 it's 100% a gameplay choice. The preferred target audience is pirates..... It has been for some time now... That's why when the question arises to them on how our stuff will be protected, they deflect it back by asking how will YOU protect your stuff... Literally came out the devs mouth... It simply comes down to the reality that they basically looking at non-combat players as......NPC's..... You are nothing more than food for who they're focused on...
@@durtyred86its been pretty obvious for a while now that industrial focused players are meant to be food,l based on a ton of decisions theyve made, but they didnt sell the game that way (obviously) so it will be interesting to see how the cattle react once they realize thats their job in the game (if they do).
If no one interacts with cargo missions (or trade runs) because of this problem, that’ll be data. If people do interact with those loops but opt to only use places where they can auto-load, that’ll be data. It’s not great… like you say, they should have realized the problem already, but they’ll learn one way or the other. They did shorten the auto-load time gate on the last patch, so I expect more people will use that anyway once the novelty of loading it yourself wears off.
its pretty bad that it does go down to their inventory, thats really rough I assumed that this wouldn't be possible AND that if a non-party member interacted with cargo on YOUR cargo it would have the same law definitions as taking it of YOUR grid (which currently carries a crimestat, and if they made crimestat unable to interact with the terminal...then they'd be completely blocked)
They should just keep this in and remove armistice zones to protect urself. More escorts will be hired, more multi crew gameplay and the start of an economy
Armistice zones are the decaying bandages they keep trying to patch the game with to deal with the interaction of players. Unfortunately it won't be fixed until the NPC learn how to sit on a chair reliably...
No issues with them being out in the open for people to steal of course that is a big part of the game.. but yeah to just press a button and pop its in their inventory... that needs to be fixed. The terminal should just be locked to the person that is currently using it.
Compared to all the other problems the cargo system has right now, that bug is small baby potatoes and as annoying as it is, it's really easy to avoid. I suspect the bug will be allowed to exist for a couple of patch cycles until the cargo system is stable enough that CIG starts looking at exploits.
If 3.23 taught us anything it's that they need to have an eye out for exploits in evocati when people report them. We have a totally ruined economy - again - because they failed to heed the input and pushed to live anyway.
Since when are CIG worried about gameplay? They just want people to play the game and buy ships. People are missing ships from when 3.23 dropped. They won't do anything about that either. They haven't even mentioned it........have you?
I see this more a CIG dont explaining well all the steps that they thought. Because they probably have solutions when future systems will change, but when, and why dont having something now?
eh not supper worried, if it needs fix then it will get fixed they have been quick with feature release recently. Cargo is a big PVP and PVE loop if people stop doing it then they will fix it, just like master modes was going to be game breaking for Cargo and miners. Yet it ended up not being that big of a deal, had a couple of encounters while mining and running cargo and each time i've been able to get my shields up in time to fight.
But really, the fix is super duper easy: Make it so mission cargo crates cannot be tractored by anyone but the owner. Can't steal something glued to the ground, right?
Absolutely believe that. Being honest, saying it was a little tongue in cheek - I don't see how anyone could play it as an actual gamer and not be infuriated by some of the decision making. Not bugs, not jank, but decision-making underlying the system.
I believe the auto loading is "magic" and happens off-screen while the ship is stored. It's just timed based on the size of the cargo load. So no, no one should be able to steal that.
@UniversityofStanton that would solve the issue about being stolen, which option is more time efficient? They do need to sort out a feature where the amnistice zone doesn't stop you killing someone if they dare touching your cargo when manually loading
So i'm guessing thats a bug that they can squash pretty easily. Instead of having cargo be attributed to the lift operator, it should be attributed to the registered owners storage. If someone wants to steal cargo, they sould first have to remove it from the lift, load it onto a ship and take it to another cargo elavator at the very least. I'm only 2 mins in when writing this so aopogies if you addressed that later in the vid.
I get the concern. You know I think the difference though is this is a bigger overall community/world, and the kind of things that pass on some backwater private server in a survival game aren't going to be the same things that happen in a larger persistent world. I believe we're going to see different, more complex dynamics play out here.
I hate to say this, but currently, CiG thinks it's "cool.".... They literally see non combat players as created npc fodder for piracy players. They think it's fun gameplay or "immersive"... The non-combat player has always been looked at as the proverbial live goat on a leash waiting to be served up as a meal for the carnivore. I've been actively playing for some years now, and in that time, I've seen positive security measures come.... Then go... Literally taken OUT of the game. The Carrack and it's double click ramp ability allowed a player to quickly open their ramp, jump out, and it immediately close back. Nearly the whole Crusader line had lockable doors that were removed... Doors open and close like they haven't had PCMS done on them in decades and are being operated for the first time since... The list goes on... If you're not into PvP or otherwise Piracy, you are not the target audience. You are the tatgeted audiences play food....
I'm reporting from the outside and not personally in evocati, so I don't have access to create or support that thread, but this is absolutely the kind of thing I routinely contribute testing and feedback to.
I would agree with that, except that this is a pattern, year after year, feature after poorly-thought-out feature. This stuff should've been addressed on paper months before it ever hit code, code review, or internal testing. CIG DOES need to do better.
Lets be honest. The 3.24 cargo change will actually DECREASE cargo hauling. The profit margins vs time for both RMC and Gold are tight compared to salvage and the risk to cargo hauling just went from medium to thru the roof with this change. The only people doing cargo hauling in 3.24 will be noobs and dum dums
Agreed. People are talking about the fun of having friends and orgs help with this stuff and it's just like...yeah, a couple times, sure. And then it's goign to be tedious, boring, and not profitable. This shit's going to fall on its face.
@UniversityofStanton Anything they do to entice players to do it will just entice players to steal it even more. Without any grief proofing like "keep inventory upon death" "playerbound items" cargo will never bee viable
Why would they protect the cargo piracy is part of this game it’s part of the risk. If you move cargo it can be stolen. I don’t see why that surprising.
A way to tackle it could be a hefty Crime stat if you steal someone's cargo. Or in the hangers make it so they can only use the featured forklift that they showed a few months ago!
@@UniversityofStanton Do you see someone making a single player game anything like this? Plus, Squadron 42 is a thing. I was a huge fan of Wing Commander. Privateer was probably my favorite though, and that's basically what SC is. WC: Privateer for the modern era. I'm gonna have to put up with people, and it sucks. But I'll avoid interacting in-game as best I can...
In the QnA somebody said you had to provide protection (can't recall who) when loading on landing zones and that makes sense. In safe systems the risk would be lower , in the 'wild' you have a higher risk of being pirated. Just as in real life. The bug/exploit with the elevator should be adressed though, that's game breaking.
This is what happens when they can’t retain all those original devs who shared that same original vision for the game and go and hire a bunch of Fortnite kids and try to glaze us up with dumb tedious Arcady gameplay loops 😂
this is the very reason why CIG went with player involved development. we the player are the best at finding exploits and bugs. this will get fixed just like all the others we have had over the years.
I would agree but it's not just a matter of "fix" a "bug." The decisions being made are garbage and poorly thought through. That has to be fixed at a fundamental, human level.
There is a difference between discovering issues in bugs or even deeper game breaking imbalances vs blatant issues with the design itself. Unfortunately, it’s very common for CIG. Just look at the ROC DS, the zero-utility of the MULE, the width of the STORM, the every no-ground-clearance vehicle. My confidence in them has slowly but surely dwindled over the 10 years I’ve been backing
That you can easily steal the cargo is fine (it's by design after all and I think it is for the best, game play wise), however the issue that allows you to interact with other player's terminals and simply steal their cargo by lowering the elevator needs to be addressed, sure. Although I believe the call out here is a bit melodramatic when this still haven't even reached wave 1... Just... Don't make the console interactable for other players. Wow.
Frankly though, this is just the latest tip of the iceberg. This kind of poor design, poor decision-making, and predictably poor execution has plagued game system after game system over the years I've played here. It's had many names. This month its name is "cargo elevators."
Bring turrets crew, or here's and idea hire escorts security. SC PU is not and never was to be a solo game. It is multi-player game and always will be.Stop blaming the devs because you didn't bring the nessisary amount of crew.
Yeah great idea genius. For a brand new player starting out with barely any money and the payouts are terrible, small ships are meant to haul from these smaller outposts where they are most vulnerable. It’s not gonna be fun, they need to figure out a better way to do this.
If you've played this for any amount of time, you know as well as I do this isn't a one-time thing. This has been a pattern with them, feature after feature.
I'm very confused why the game developer needs to protect the cargo and not the players playing the game. If you can't be bothered to protect your own cargo in riskier areas, stick to hangars? Doesn't seem like a conundrum.
@@pxkqd Good point, tho the current armistice zone isn't intended to begin with. Not allowing weapon usage in armistice zones is a stop-gap until server performance is good enough for NPC security responses to be a thing by ship and on-foot. In the meantime, what I said still holds, even if it's more due to a temporary inability to effectively defend the cargo. Unless and until you can defend cargo at pads or simply feel comfortable regardless, stick to hangars. CIG needs to design for gameplay as intended more so than to accommodate the temporary circumstances of the alpha. Personally, I barely even encounter other players away from landing zones even if I linger.
Well...isnt that what testing is for? You find exploits, report them and let CIG fix it. And if they fix it in a few months, who cares? First get the System running, then make it fair.
No - testing is NOT for fleshing out the core fundamentals of a system. This is something that should have been worked out on whiteboards and on paper before even making it to code, code review, and internal testing. It absolutely never should have reached evocati. There's an all around weakness in conceptual game design thinking that is causing this to happen at all.
@@UniversityofStanton Yes, that is EXACTLY what testing is for. I was talking about that bit with the guy saying you can steal the cargo by sending the Cargoelevator back and getting the Stuff in your inventory. That is something that should not be possible. Everything else? I think it's fine. And maybe this is excatly what CIG intended? If you dont want your stuff stolen, get an Escort, stay in Safe Spaces, etc. I don't really care for getting everything handed on a silver plate. There needs to be a certain level of danger, if your buying Cargo at derelict Outposts, etc. instead of a Space Station. I believe we will get more AI security in the future, and it also will be funtional. Means, your getting attacked at a "secure" outpost, the outpostsecurity will help you. Just not right now, because the AI mostly isn't functional. Tier 0 means Tier 0, nobody expects everything to be perfect from the get go. Just because it isn't your Idea of Gameplay doesn't mean it's automatically bad.
@@TrayMcBong For your 1000th repetition of "just get an escort", here ist the 1000th repetition of "You need to load cargo in an armistice zone. Escorts do not work.".
I just think you content creators need to chill out. You seem to expect them to get everything perfect on the first release. But this is not A featured complete gameplay loop, but the first iteration of one.
a whole ass video for a bug in a super early build that'll prob get fixed sooner or later... real drama queen ish. do better man, or turn in your evo card.
This is just another way CIG is telling you Get Friends!!! This isn't a solo game, it's an MMO, and you'll have to deal with people from time to time. So just get some friends and stop bitching.
Brilliant answer. Everyone should just hire a bodyguard to follow them around and guard the terminal button, to make damn sure nobody can sneak up and do the most challenging of piracy activities; press that button. You are a genius.
@@BadTactics101 everyone is just making complaints about things they said they've wanted to do for years. Things that will actually make this a game and give us things to strive for instead of getting everything we want in a single game session or two.
Bad take, man. Plenty of people play MMOs solo, there’s nothing wrong with folks playing and simply existing with others. Forced communication to get anything done other than things like xenothreat is a goofy way to ruin a game. Im not saying a single seater ship should overpower a multi crew ship or anything like that, but something as mundane as getting cargo from your elevator shouldn’t require an org to complete this task. You should be able to accomplish -most- things on your own with the option to request assistance for an easier, and likely more enjoyable time imo. You shouldn’t be able to solo an idris, you should be able to load cargo.
Yea, not everyone has friends that pop up instantly in starcitizen, i think that is actually very rare. And cargo is considered to be a bit too boring for multiplayer. This really should be more solo friendly.
Elliot addressed this. You touch someone else's cargo, you get a big time crime stat. Sending things back down the elevator is another matter. This is not live yet, its not in its final form. So take a deep breath and go touch grass. They are aware of the issues, and said so last week on SCL.
Ooooooo, a big time Crime Stat... I (as a trader) am sure someone is shivering their timbers because of that. Only once having a CS actually has some more consequences I will take that more seriously but no, why gimp the pirate GamePlay...
Crime stat doesn't stop them from robbing you while you can do nothing to stop them in an armistice zone. So maybe you should touch some grass your tongue must need a break from all the boot licking. We are literally here to test and fix the game through feedback and it's what we are doing numb nuts.
I mean considering you can't get into major stations with a crimestat an already law abiding (or at least clean) player would have to sacrifice that and presumably immediately go to jail (since again they're in a controlled zone) just to fuck with your cargo for a second. On outposts etc... Well you might wanna protect your cargo but there trolls are not your biggest concern
To add, I just read a comment. Put turrets on outposts to make ganking less quick. Make nocs hostile to trolls. Make who pushes a button not affect who gets the cargo, so it just goes back into the owners inventory (seriously how has no one thought of this wtf)
Well besides armistice zones having to disappear altogether, alongside implementing competent npcs that can act as security/police throughout cities, it's really a permission system they need to work on.
Ownership should not go immediately to someone else at the press of a button WITHOUT the permission of the owner. The owner should have to give/authorize the trade/handoff. Implementing something like that would be enough for removing the single button press problem.
The only recourse left for the 'thief' party should be having to physically move the items into either their own elevator, or a ship they have snuck in. It will be up to the thief to trick the victim into allowing them to bring up their elevator in the victims own hangar.
A proper permission system will let the owner authorize who they choose to use facilities on their property.
"Make cargo easily stolen, means we get emergenmt gameplay, the sort we dont have to pay to develop"
"Why is literally nobody doing the cargo missions we spent thousands of staff hours developing"
They tend not to think things through very well at times. Apparently its up to us to protect cargo, but there are no simple tools with which to do so, stuff that IRL have exsited for decades. Vehicle kets, pin codes and the like. And if that makes things harder for "that sort", I can live with that because at this level it simply empowers the troublemakers who simply want to spoile somone else' day.
Best way to fix this would be to have the pads lower underground and close up top then have the elevator down there so you can load in peace but still have the risk of being jumped trying to leave.
Yeah. I was thinking about the same and instead of just landing pads, they could probably add a landing hanger (or two) for cargo loading. Like how we have in distribution centers
I'd even settle for being able to use force without getting a crimestat to defend cargo.
@@vik12DWith such a short TTK, you’d have to just make all use of force legal, which only turns it all around into a free for all.
Yeah, I even asked on SCL. Multiple people have asked how to protect cargo, and that guy said the question was "how are YOU going to protected your cargo?" and the answer is, without some changes, I'm not. I'll just get jacked and I can't defend it at all, so why bother?
Without a chance, there's no point to even play it, a pointless addition.
Why cant you defend it? I'd have a couple buddies with guns watching the elevator while I load the ship up... if someone flies in amd tries to steal, then they are gonna get pumped full of lead.
Was pretty much my biggest worry about it, and then i heard about the button press…
Help me up... upcoming new player in SC... what so you mean?
@@StreeZeR__ They are discussing a bug discovered during the testing phase, where it is possible to steal all of someone's cargo on a freight elevator by going up to the console and sending it down again. That transfers ownership to you. However, it is during the testing phase, so it isn't really an issue; this is when these things are supposed to be discovered.
it's funny when things like this happend, and then we had Lando in last ISC saying "we are discussing and seeing the problem 12 weeks before you are".
yeeeet here we are... ^^
Never said we wouldn't see the problem too, hahahahah.
@@makimera people still believe this guy
Elfiann from CIG recommended this video to me. The style and quality of this is top notch. Keep it up!
So good to hear. That's high praise indeed, and I'm glad they're aware and addressing things like this!
With all the changes coming I love how things are being polished and finally realized, but the cargo loading that way just shows how they lack awareness. Knowing that they want to push players to 'hire' AI and enlist friends for these things the value in the gameloop simply does not justify it. I can very easily workout the mental flow of robbing someone who has to spend an HOUR loading up their ship with a tractor beam that can destroy the ship with one desync BEFORE even flying it out with the added CONSTANT risk of being robbed. As the thief it's either pop for an easy loot grab OR better yet wait for them to load and just steal the ship. 2 hours for quarter a mil in profit vs 30 mins and FULL profit. It's like they just brainstorm 'fun scenarios' on a white board, throw a dart and develop without actually trying it out in game first.
They haven't fixed box delivery :)
"PvP, where players with better ships will hold an advantage, only makes up a fraction of the game, and that players can opt out entirely if they want."
~ Chris Roberts, PCGamer 2018
With their words CIG is designing a sim. With their actions, a gank box. Actions speak louder than words, yeah?
Lowering elevator is definitely a glaring problem.
Hangers would need ability to be locked so you can load and unload in privacy.
Pads out in the open come with inherent risks but that risk should scale with also ability to defend.
Cargo should not be safe in non armistice zones. Cargo should be safe in armistice zones.
Hopefully cargo ownership is a thing the game can track in the "legal system" and have the system correctly detect if things are being stolen vs being transferred.
If someone steals from you, you can retaliate.
Thoughts on simply removing armistice and allowing players to solve these problems themselves? I believe armistice zones work against players in most situations where piracy\thievery\griefing is possible.
I don't have any reference of other games where this works. The problem here is preserving both the armistice zone and allow only the designed owner to control the elevator.. you could let only the first user to operate the console, but someone could still steal the exposed crates. An idea could be the ability to raise some kind of fence around the pad? activable from the cargo console?
Or get some friends.
@@CallMeTeach2 and use their bodies as a fence? 😅 given you're in armistice, they cannot do much else to prevent the theft
@@CallMeTeach2 And what would all those friends do when someone runs across the armistice zone to lower the lift? Yell at them, wave their weapons threateningly, perform a dance choreography?
@@CallMeTeach2 What are they going to do in an armistice zone?
@@CallMeTeach2 "Get some friends" is the biggest load of bull I've seen from anyone who defends this kind of gameplay. Why should a lone pirate be able to steal an entire cargo hold's worth of goods for very little effort and 90% profit while the trader has to have "friends" in which he needs to divide the 250k auec up and overall make less than a single pirate. If a trader needs friends to do a trade run and split profits then a pirate needs friends to steal that and put in some actual effort.
What would you rather have? 3.24 cargo update OR 600 bug fixes
600 bug fixes. I do not have any confidence in the changes to the cargo and inventory system at all right now. And thankfully I don't think CIG does either as they're starting to walk some of those changes back on PTU following feedback. That in itself I'm happy about.
@@UniversityofStanton likewise, ill take the bug fixes, and then maybe we have a chance of fixing problems and other bugs that have been in the game for 4-5 years at this point
I don't think one second CIG didn't think at that (protection of the area). They set up game systems without adding the conterparts. Since 2016 that I've been following the game, it's always been like this, in fact they never go to the end of things, i'm afraid it's part of there DNA.
As soon as the patch went to Evos I pointed out that problem to CIG. Weeks later, nothing has changed.
Predictable and sad.
The lack of Forethought is CIG’s most GLARING Problem
They don’t care. Their mistakes allows them to extend development time, offering job security and more time to rake in millions more from idiotic players.
To me this just sounds like an oversight in player ownership permissions, a scenario they didn't think of. Here's to hoping they fix it sooner rather than later.
Exactly my point unfortunately. These are scenarios that should've been thought out on whiteboards, on paper, before code, code review, and internal testing. The lack of foresight is staggering.
Even if the cargo is marked stolen, it is still a lot of profit for the thief. He did not pay for the cargo, so anything he can sell it for is his reward.
It's just a bug report from Evocati. You're not supposed to interact with mobiglass, ASOP terminals, cargo terminals, etc. from other players.
@@LuismaLorca You can still just steal the cargo in armistice and run. . .
@@UniversityofStanton In CIG's defense, they are supporting two contradictory goals: safe handling of cargo to prevent exploits and so on, and the ability to steal that cargo to support criminal game loops. When doing this you often have to err on the one side or the other and it's easy to miss something. I have a hunch that, given recent history, CIG are trying their damndest to prevent another cargo exploit and so stuff like this creeps in.
As soon as I saw it, I also thought about anyone just stealing your boxes.
everyone are crying about stealing boxes, what solution do you provide? elevate boxes one by one? close ramp after each box?
@@Max_Cony umm what? So many ways to tackle it like give a CS to anyone not in party beaming the cargo from your elevator as that is stealing. Not really a brainer tbh.
@@dhwajgoyal How would giving CS to anyone beaming the cargo would prevent that? Pirates have CS anyways. And this doesnt solve the button press on terminal issue
@@Max_Cony what? Button press issue is a bug that will be fixed with code lol. CS would discourage people from beaming the cargo because of CS.
@@dhwajgoyal pirates dont care about cs was my main point
yea 2 problems here. The control over the elevator, and ability for other people to tractor cargo out.
Both could be fixed by making the pad+elevator its own private zone like an armistice for others, assigned to the owner+party of the one that pulled up the cargo. Once someone else touched the control panel, the remaining cargo in the elevator would first stored back into original owner inventory and then private zone restriction lifted. After that its free to use for the other player.
Its main mechanics/code could be borrowed from private hangars, where others are not allowed to enter for example.
To bring along a buddy to guard the control panel is no option, there are a lot of people that solo the game, having a friend popup at moment notice in starcitizen is not something many people have. The ability to do cargo relative safely is something imo solo player should be possible to do. Multiplayer is not a fix for all stupid problems this has to be done in another way.
thats a good idea
But trying to solo a game that's meant to be multiplayer should bring risks. Sure you CAN do almost anything solo, but without someone to watch your back then you risk getting ganked. Only thing I would change is put the same law on the cargo in the elevator as is on cargo on a ship cargo grid, and change that button press to make it go back to the original player's inventory. Oh and remove all armistice outside of landing zones
The first is a bug, the second is by design, sorry. Stealing cargo is a valid gameplay loop.
@@LuismaLorca But not stealing cargo in an armistice zone. That's the worst of all possible worlds: no security, and no self-help security. If you have magic AZs, you need AI security; otherwise you need to get rid of the AZs and introduce self-help justice. To allow theft but have AZs and no AI security is just brain-dead game design.
Just watch that official star citizen video where the guy said “I’m not here to hold your hand”… what an absolute insult on top of a half assed implementation like everything else they add to the game, barebones content. With respect. ♥️
I'm actually not familiar with that clip, can you link it? I need this for future purposes lol.
@@UniversityofStanton SC Q&A Making missions II-2 @ 55:46
Have to admit, watching it back, it doesn’t sound as bad as when I heard it the first time. I was looking at it from too wide of a scope. He’s just a mission guy and from a mission POV, it makes sense. My issue is more fundamental game mechanics that I would presume that particular dev has no say or part in.
Ahh okay I could totally see that. Thanks for taking the time!
Yup, even worst than I thought I would be. Sincerely hope they don’t ship it like that to ptu and /or live.
"Cargo is your responsibility"
They will.
I mean, it is obviously a bug... On Evocati. I don't understand why people need to be so excessively dramatic.
@@LuismaLorca And how do you know that? Given CIG, it very well may be a feature
Don't get annoyed about bad mistakes like the hangar storing issue showing up in Evocati testing. All this testing and Issue Council reporting stuff is for real, it isn't for show! I have been Evocati since 3.0, and I have seen many issues of that level. This is the whole point of Evocati; testing the game in an unplayable state and reporting the issues that make it unplayable. When client side OCS first came out, the system was so buggy that we spent the first week literally running out of the habs at Olisar and seeing how far down the stairs towards the ASOP terminals we could get before the client crashed. We all just put in as many hours as possible every day for more than a week repeating that 20 meter run, over and over and over again, giving the devs enough crash logs to find all the null-pointers (or whatever it was), slowly getting further and further until one day we managed to spawn a ship, then immediately crashed when we opened it, then again when we took off. Then again... (Yeah, that was a really bad round, the memory is still painful 😆). We were all sworn to total secrecey (actual legal NDA has to be signed and mailed in to get Evocati access), so not many of these stories have come out before, but Evocati receive and expect to receieve completely unplayable patches. So, a bug like being able to steal cargo by lowering the lift is minor from the perspective of Evocati. Remember, the devs are really working hard at fixing things during Evocait, the patches come often (there have been times we got several per day) and a lot of stuff gets fixed. Even once the PTU comes out, there is still a lot of debugging going on. Evocati are those that have signed up for the worst experience possible to push the game forwards faster, but once the game is at least somewhat playable it immediately goes on to PTU. Even at this stage, a bug like being able to steal cargo by lowering the hangar would be reasonable, PTU players can mostly test the game despite that bug. The real issue is if something like this goes out to the Live servers. So if you find a bug like this, make sure it gets many reproductions by giving your viewers the link to the specific issue council report so that it gets the attention it needs. It will get fixed. This is why Evocati/PTU exists; we don't want this stuff in the live servers!
planned on auto load anyway... im not playing janga cargo or pushing boxes and have no interest in tractor beams or the like... and I won't be forced to play with others if I don't want to... I'm not a team player...
Griefer's Paradise
No way that nobody on the inside sees this coming. Probable that someone said something. Almost certain that the apparent danger was dismissed due to a lack of tools necessary to solve it and the time and effort required to build any.
They cannot even make the stuff they want to work work
What chance do they have of making other things work?
They did address this and basically said "bring backup", knowing that you'd be getting cargo at open places. The issue about lowering the cargo yeets it into the thiefs inventory is def a problem that needs solving though. I dont think the former is a bug but intestinally there for the added risk for these missions.
That is my thoughts as well. They want you to work as a team (not play it like a single player game), thus you will need friends to protect the cargo in the open world. I find that an acceptable gameplay loop.
The button press to steal cargo definitely needs to be fixed though.
We know about this problem for 2 week now if not more, yet no response or acknowledgement form CIG. Really makes you wonder what happens behind the scenes
panik
I'm sure it'll be fine and CIG will fix all these concerns some time in 2026.
Agree with all! Sadly I was late posting my question on the Q/A, and it didn't make it on the recording, but I asked the same questions, plus ill like to know what will happen with the starfarer and the cargo missions that involve fuels, ill leave that question here for your consideration.
Piss easy to fix. Keep the owner of any cargo box static… Call the elevator down, and then back up again, and it’s got Player 1s cargo on it?? It’s STILL owned by player one… steal it, cop a crimestat. If player one makes player 2 wait around to use the same elevator… well.. maybe player 2 should A: help player one load it.. B: shoot player 1 throw the cargo elsewhere, load his own stuff, deal with he resulting crimestat… or something thereof.
But MORE LIKELY (because far less headaches..) is player 2 who is waiting to use the elevator, helps player 1 unload it, in return player 1 gets away either, or maybe helps player 2 and a new friendship is born…
What makes SC AMAZING is emergent gameplay! And finding ways to deal with all the errant bugs and not loosing ones mind over the bugs lol.
The issue seems to be purely a programming one… the state of the cargo isn’t fixed. That should take the coder boys no time to fix.. and it IS still in evocati!
Many sites only have small elevators and you need several passes to get all the cargo you bought up and down. Cargo needs to be moved to your warehouse automatically in this case. And if there is a button to move it, the thief can use that too.
You're not supposed to interact with other people's ASOP or cargo terminals, the issue is that this is just a bug on Evocati and some people like to be excessively melodramatic.
@@LuismaLorca I'd wager they knew about the problem but are pressed for time so just decided to see if they can get away with releasing as is.
@@LuismaLorca that still doesn't address the issue of the pirate just yoinking the cargo to their own ship, with negligible risk or controls against it.
Path of Exile has a robust trade mechanic that pretty much prevents bad trades. It's a split screen with an upper and lower grid. Seller places the items on one grid, then the buyer places the "money" on the other grid. Both players can hover over the gridded items for a full description. The trade is not finalized until both players check an "Accept" box.
Escrow, exactly. Pretty simple format that a lot of games use. I can't believe we don't have a basic form of this yet. It should've been part of tier 0 inventory right at the start.
There definitely was not a plan for this already. I think CR still thinks that this game is his perfect utopia and that griefers and exploiters don't exist. The last couple of patches have really worn me down. There seems to be no real care put into decisions. Things like raising the cost of ships while lowering the amount players can get from all types of activities feels like them just trying to push people to spend real money. Or something like putting in hull scraping and crunching just to turn around and have the material sold at outposts so the market gets flooded and you can't sell what you just worked on. I could go on and on. It has been a massive kick in the teeth recently.
I think it's a bit humorous that you think CR is concerned about player experience right now. I don't think CIG cares whether the game is fun to play, broken or missing functionality right now. They're just pushing content. As long as they don't lose money, I don't think they care what the state of the PU is in.
CIG said early on that the goal would be that the law systems will be in place to dissuade griefers at these remote outposts, but that was all tied to combat. Pushing a button to skip all punishment is a crazy oversight. This is probably just one of a hundred "oops how do we unfuck that" scenarios they introduced with the cargo stuff that has pushed 3.24 out so long. I dont expect to see 3.24 for a while.
I almost hope we don't see it for a while. They have a lot more cooking to do than they realized.
The IC for the issue of stealing in bulk only has 60 upvotes. THIS is a major issue. It's super simple to walk up to the terminal with another's cargo still in the elevator and lower the elevator, thus stealing everything in it. You can also just beam their stuff off and onto your ship, or just walk on their ship since their doors are open, sit in the drivers seat, and take off. They can't do ANYTHING until out of the armistice zone.
In regards to stealing the cargo from the elevator, this I don't think is a simple fix. They kind of have a 'who owns the cargo' in the game now, but how do you stop someone from just beaming your stuff from the elevator? You also will have to lock the elevator to stop it from lowering until everything is off, which will cause issues too. People leave their crap everywhere and at the moment it's super easy to obstruct the elevator. I landed my C2 in the middle of the pad at an outpost (one of the few times I could leave the hangar), and I obstructed it.
Another issue many are not talking about, outposts can sell 32 SCU boxes, but they don't fit in the elevators, and you can't break them down currently.
All valid points, and part of my point which is that things are simply not being thought through on paper, let alone during coding, during code review, and during internal testing. The concept should at least be THOUGHT out thoroughly before it reaches evocati.
It's a relatively minor bug, you're not supposed to interact with ASOP or cargo terminals from other players. This is a bug report from Evocati. Basically clickbait honestly.
CIG management and their devs suffer from a brainworm called "fuck the players everything has to be physicalised" instead of making the basic choice of "gameifing" certain aspects of the game. Like inventory terminals with all the clicking and animations just to get gear.
Personally i dont care having to go to terminals themselfs (since its like a chest or vault in other games) if it was just one click and then the papir doll and stoarge appear. Like minecraft chest and any other game with a chest/storage system
Physicalized cargo and movement of cargo is a core part of the game. Right now, you can land somewhere in a chunky ship, run to the terminal and instantly sell your cargo, quit out of the server, rejoin server or join new server, respawn on station with your player inventory, and insurance claim your ship.
Now you have to actually move your cargo out of your ship.
I could see a system by which the player could pay for a security detail to cover him and his cargo while he's loading/unloading - the more he pays, the better/longer the security. After a certain amount of time, the detail packs up and goes home, leaving the player to defend himself (in order to prevent pad campers from tying up a cargo point for too long). Clearly they need to fix the elevator bug you described - either lock other players out of the control pad while security is active and/or security goes hostile, or return the inventory to local inventory so the player can simply to recall the elevator. Nevertheless, a solo player trying to move huge cargo loads should face significant risk which can be mitigated to some degree by paying for local security.
I could see that, and I could see a system like that supported by NPCs - if the server architecture supports NPCs that work. We don't have that yet. We would also need to get rid of armistice zones. This artificial sphere of "you can't defend yourself" has to go away.
Armistice zones are the root of this problem. They can be kept for major cities and stations with hangars - but armistice zones need to go away in outposts. Maybe add turrets or NPCs - they have the technology for this.
DIsabling armistice will not help at all. The trader has his hands full with the tractor, and is likely not prepared for combat, whereas the thief is. The chances that he can kill a thief before being gunned down himself are minimal.
The lone trader that is outplayed by a prepared thief needs to accept the consequences of their own risks he accepted. The issue here is exclusively the ability to basically interact with the console while other player is loading/unloading. Stealing cargo is a valid and good game play loop, but this is an exploit.
@@LuismaLorca I'd argue that in this particular instance, we're talking tracked shipping containers that are supposed to come from the outpost to a destination through a contracted individual. The appropriate solution is that sending the elevator back down, at the location shipping out those materials should put it back in the access of the contract holder, not the thief. Because NOBODY would set their station's cargo system to work in such a way where the ownership of their shipment is suddenly changed based on who pushes an elevator button.
@@carstenschops7797 Solo traders should stick to areas with hangars where they can be more secure (missions going from cities/LEO stations that go from secure hangar to secure hangar are already in 3.24). Outposts without armistice zones would be understood to require scouting/security. Just like how Picker's Field/rRappel and other non-armistice areas work currently.
@@luistigerfox can agree - that part of this problem is a programming oversight.
The issue is ownership in general. If you sit in the illegal salvage pilot seat, it is now your ship and you can tow it away with a greatly diminished crime stat.
This can all be fixed with sticky ownership or even sub-ownership. Box belongs to Red Wind, assigned to Steve, and none of those two stats change. Add a third database item of possession if they have to but ownership does not always need to change based on possession. At least 1/10th of the time.
The issue of lowering the elevator and the contents transferring to the inventory of the person that interacted with the button definitely needs to be fixed. That said - I think the cargo should still be exposed to interaction for anyone that chooses to do so, with certain consequences. For example if I try to steal your cargo off your grid, I should get a CS, or some sort of KOS flag so the legitimate owner can defend their possessions without repercussion to themselves. If/when there are guards present, they could also react, or automated defenses associated with the cargo hangar itself, etc. I think it should be possible to do, but be difficult to pull off, and only worth it in specific cases. Or perhaps something like if owner is in x radius you cannot steal off the grid (to troll), but if you choose to kill said owner (and they respawn somewhere else), the cargo should release and you can interact with it (But now you have committed to getting a cs3+). Not sure - but I think limiting player choice is not the way to go.
CIG is in a major push to get things out ASAP. Perhaps the deadline with investors, perhaps something else we are not aware of. Either way, releasing half-baked ideas/mechanics have been a problem for a long time. They didn't even finish the interaction system before releasing it and keeping that way for months. Some ships are missing functionality because of it.
Bottom line, I get the impression that CIG places an extremely low priority on the player's experience as of right now. They're just pushing content. Not trying to make anything enjoyable or doing a thorough job. They will continue to not place it a higher priority so long as they keep getting money.
I don’t understand how no one seems ti be trying to “break” anything they can. Maybe they really DON’T play the game as much as we think. There’s a shocking number of gamepads at CIG desks…which explains a lot…
I feel like they almost left it this way to try to encourage multiplayer co-operation on these missions, but what its going to boil down to is that no one will do them because the risk isn't worth the terribly low reward. Nobody is going to want to split the $36K completion reward 4 ways when it took you 45 minutes to load cargo and complete the mission.
Yeah, and it's one of those things where they say, "ohhhh well the rewards in the video are just examples, we'll raise it," and then it'll either end up wildly lucrative or wildly worthless. We'll see if they've "gathered enough data" to make an informed decisions on this screwed economy they're leaving in place at present.
I think it will be the same answer " get good or get an escort " As a solo player that cant spend most of my free time in SC I look at the way game is going and its may kill it if it doesn't look after the solo players. Yes I like playing with people I like the PvE PvP we have adding risk to everyday play. for this problem is easy . IF someone has logged on to the screen and cargo is still on the Elevator no one else can log on. Simple. the screen can only be come free after the last box has been off loaded. ( If grid is full = keep locked , if grid is empty = unlock ) simple flow chart.
as for been in the open I think thats part of the game. you have time if you see a ship to store what is on the elevator yourself just in case and or only call up enough cargo that you can load in a short amount of time so that you can lock your ship ( you know with that key fob that was invented back in the 21st century ) you know that App on the Mobi glass so you can stop people walking into your ship and starting it up with out a key or fob or would we have Biometric scanners by then OH wait we had then back in the 21st Century too
Absolutely valid, though I tend to agree with the self defense/bring defense concept. I think that makes for great gameplay (this is an online game) but they shoot it in the foot by having armistice zones and having put no thought into crimestatting or granting kill rights on players who mess with your cargo/trespass in your area.
@@UniversityofStantonexcept in cases where entering a multiplayer game is quick and painless (not SC) the majority of players who play MMOs are solo players. The MMO aspect is majority of the time a “shared solo online experience” rather than actually multiplayer play. Even in most quick and painless entrance multiplayer games, most games rely on matchmaking to bring about PUGS for the short time they are together. In multiplayer games surrounding guilds, even then most play time is solo. You can make the game focus on the multiplayer aspect, but most players playtime even in multiplayer games is solo and relying on matchmade PUGS when multiplayer is necessary. Any loop that requires group play and doesnt have a matchmaking system will happen, but it will happen like old school WoW raids, relatively rarely.
My guess is they didn't know how to handle a case of multiple people's belongings being on the same elevator. So they simplified it to "whoever pushes the button."
Probably because the team working on that bit were solely concerned with Personal Hangars.
Another interesting case of an engineer having a very narrowly-defined task with no overarching context provided to the bigger picture probably.
Wait what? They can Jack your whole cargo load by pressing a button that should be hard locked to your biometrics until cargo is fully loaded? Like ship door access?
The bug with lowering the frieght elevator aside, the fact that cargo can be stolen while loading it (i.e. stolen by someone doing the whole thing and tractoring it away), is not a lack of foresight, it is an experiment. This is still an Alpha and they are still developing the game. They test new things on purpose to see how they are, new mechanics that are far more risky than a completed game could include. Cargo hauling will likely be rewarded for the danger by having very high profits, pulling in those players that are ready to take the risk for a sufficient reward. If it doesn't work out, if it is too risky for anyone to play, they will change it (and change the rewards as well). Cargo hauling in Star Citizen has always been the most heart thumping, adrenaline rush game play there is in Star Citizen, because the stakes are so high. If you lose a C2's worth of cargo, that is several million aUEC lost. There are other game loops for those that want a less stressful activity.
Hey, appreciate the messages and the perspective! However in my book a developer who's had 10 years to get their shit together no longer deserves to have their shortcomings excused by "it's an alpha" :-). Especially when the majority of problems are no longer simply bugs, but poorly understood, poorly thought-out, and poorly executed design decisions. At a certain point it's time to stop falling back on excuses and start putting out working product.
@@UniversityofStanton Are we sure that the trade mechaics with a pirate-accessible loading bay is a bad mechanic though? It hasn't been tried, do you really know what is going to happen? I mean, obviously there is a risk, but how bad will it really be in practice? I think the attempt is worthwhile; if it doesn't work it can be changed. I think that is the main point of still calling it an Alpha; players should expect attempts with new game mechanics in a way that you couldn't do if you called the game "stable". Obviously, it means that players have to be willing to suffer through some experiments that turn out to be bad, but it allows the game to reach much further into unexplored territory than other games.
Oh, I think there is one more important point to remember: Trading in SC is not a laid back, low risk activity like it is in other games. It isn't EuroTruck simulator. It is hard-core intense and nerve-wracking! Trading has often been the most dangerous activity of all, but also the most monetarily rewarding. The last two years, we have had server-crash recovery of your ship contents which has taken a lot of the edge off, but before that, a server crash meant that all your cargo was gone. A buggy QT that took you through the planet meant that all your cargo was gone. A failed store of your ship at a station, resulting in the ship registering in an "undefined" location meant that all your cargo was gone. Or any other of the gazillion bugs that could kill your ship. So whenever you saw a really great opportunity to make a killing by buying lots of high value goods and selling it even more expensively, you were nervous! Really heart-thumping nervous! If you got the cargo past the roulette wheel of bugs, you made a killing. If you lost, you lost weeks worth of grinding aUEC, several millions. Trading was never as popular as when the risks and rewards were the highest! A lot of people crave that game play. There is another kind of game play which is "hauling" rather than "trading". Hauling would be moving someone else's stuff from point A to point B, giving you a fixed reward and no risk of loss at all (except maybe some rep). That is much more the laid-back style of game-play. For trading, what we want is the high risk, high reward game play and we want the risk to not be bugs, i.e. it has to be pirates.
I don't know who is making shitty game play choices lately, but they're getting really good at it.
It's not a gameplay choice, it's bringing out a new feature ASAP even when everything it will need later on is still missing, such as guard rails against thieves.
Incredible how the game has been in development for 12 years and people STILL haven't learned it.
How many decades do you need to learn such a simple concept?
@j.d.4697 it's 100% a gameplay choice. The preferred target audience is pirates..... It has been for some time now... That's why when the question arises to them on how our stuff will be protected, they deflect it back by asking how will YOU protect your stuff... Literally came out the devs mouth... It simply comes down to the reality that they basically looking at non-combat players as......NPC's..... You are nothing more than food for who they're focused on...
@@durtyred86its been pretty obvious for a while now that industrial focused players are meant to be food,l based on a ton of decisions theyve made, but they didnt sell the game that way (obviously) so it will be interesting to see how the cattle react once they realize thats their job in the game (if they do).
If no one interacts with cargo missions (or trade runs) because of this problem, that’ll be data. If people do interact with those loops but opt to only use places where they can auto-load, that’ll be data.
It’s not great… like you say, they should have realized the problem already, but they’ll learn one way or the other.
They did shorten the auto-load time gate on the last patch, so I expect more people will use that anyway once the novelty of loading it yourself wears off.
its pretty bad that it does go down to their inventory, thats really rough
I assumed that this wouldn't be possible AND that if a non-party member interacted with cargo on YOUR cargo it would have the same law definitions as taking it of YOUR grid
(which currently carries a crimestat, and if they made crimestat unable to interact with the terminal...then they'd be completely blocked)
Duping completely gone yet but the vulture and reclaimer currently have a bug thats lets you dupe your buffer.
CIG not caring about cargo and PVE, tell me something new.
They should just keep this in and remove armistice zones to protect urself. More escorts will be hired, more multi crew gameplay and the start of an economy
So agree! Armistice zones have created more problems than solutions.
Armistice zones are the decaying bandages they keep trying to patch the game with to deal with the interaction of players.
Unfortunately it won't be fixed until the NPC learn how to sit on a chair reliably...
my bet is 'no plan, this will reach live'
Oh god, I want to hope you're wrong, but from what history has shown...
No issues with them being out in the open for people to steal of course that is a big part of the game.. but yeah to just press a button and pop its in their inventory... that needs to be fixed. The terminal should just be locked to the person that is currently using it.
Compared to all the other problems the cargo system has right now, that bug is small baby potatoes and as annoying as it is, it's really easy to avoid. I suspect the bug will be allowed to exist for a couple of patch cycles until the cargo system is stable enough that CIG starts looking at exploits.
If 3.23 taught us anything it's that they need to have an eye out for exploits in evocati when people report them. We have a totally ruined economy - again - because they failed to heed the input and pushed to live anyway.
The selling of aUEC is not grey market. That is full on black market.
Since when are CIG worried about gameplay? They just want people to play the game and buy ships. People are missing ships from when 3.23 dropped. They won't do anything about that either. They haven't even mentioned it........have you?
I see this more a CIG dont explaining well all the steps that they thought.
Because they probably have solutions when future systems will change, but when, and why dont having something now?
eh not supper worried, if it needs fix then it will get fixed they have been quick with feature release recently. Cargo is a big PVP and PVE loop if people stop doing it then they will fix it, just like master modes was going to be game breaking for Cargo and miners. Yet it ended up not being that big of a deal, had a couple of encounters while mining and running cargo and each time i've been able to get my shields up in time to fight.
But really, the fix is super duper easy: Make it so mission cargo crates cannot be tractored by anyone but the owner. Can't steal something glued to the ground, right?
2:19 many of them playing SC..... Got my doubts .......
Absolutely believe that. Being honest, saying it was a little tongue in cheek - I don't see how anyone could play it as an actual gamer and not be infuriated by some of the decision making. Not bugs, not jank, but decision-making underlying the system.
Man!...I was worried about something like this popping up. Damn it CIG --c'mon dudes, gotta fix it or were f'd
And how does the auto loading work? Is that possible to be stolen too?
I believe the auto loading is "magic" and happens off-screen while the ship is stored. It's just timed based on the size of the cargo load. So no, no one should be able to steal that.
@UniversityofStanton that would solve the issue about being stolen, which option is more time efficient? They do need to sort out a feature where the amnistice zone doesn't stop you killing someone if they dare touching your cargo when manually loading
Oh man, sooo many reasons to get interested in 3.24 and sooo many reasons to sit on the bench. Tier 0 rollouts are ALWAYS messy. Back to sleep Zzz.
So i'm guessing thats a bug that they can squash pretty easily. Instead of having cargo be attributed to the lift operator, it should be attributed to the registered owners storage. If someone wants to steal cargo, they sould first have to remove it from the lift, load it onto a ship and take it to another cargo elavator at the very least.
I'm only 2 mins in when writing this so aopogies if you addressed that later in the vid.
3.24 is going to be a disaster like most patches released right in time for IAE and CitizenCon
Everyone get to you favorite outpost and camp it to get free loot. Awesome idea. Forget about being a Pirate. We gonna turn in Rust Grub's
I get the concern. You know I think the difference though is this is a bigger overall community/world, and the kind of things that pass on some backwater private server in a survival game aren't going to be the same things that happen in a larger persistent world. I believe we're going to see different, more complex dynamics play out here.
On the one hand, I hope it gets fixed. On the other, I will be one of the people who forces it to 😈.
I hate to say this, but currently, CiG thinks it's "cool."....
They literally see non combat players as created npc fodder for piracy players. They think it's fun gameplay or "immersive"... The non-combat player has always been looked at as the proverbial live goat on a leash waiting to be served up as a meal for the carnivore. I've been actively playing for some years now, and in that time, I've seen positive security measures come.... Then go... Literally taken OUT of the game. The Carrack and it's double click ramp ability allowed a player to quickly open their ramp, jump out, and it immediately close back. Nearly the whole Crusader line had lockable doors that were removed... Doors open and close like they haven't had PCMS done on them in decades and are being operated for the first time since... The list goes on... If you're not into PvP or otherwise Piracy, you are not the target audience. You are the tatgeted audiences play food....
where is the link to your spectrum thread where you reported this? you did report it right?
I'm reporting from the outside and not personally in evocati, so I don't have access to create or support that thread, but this is absolutely the kind of thing I routinely contribute testing and feedback to.
Remember to post your spectrum links so we can bump them also
pretty sure they said you get a crime stat for doing said sneaky thievery lol
Wouldnt be a university without a professor ranting now and then
Its pretty illogical that the guy pressing the button .... is the owner.
So just lower the elevator, then choose auto load so they cant steal it back. Gotcha
How long is autoload taking at the moment, out of curiosity.
Or worse:
It’s intentional.
It's good to report this, but it's is not that egregious of an "oversight" when it's an EVO build to be like "CIG needs to do better" lol
I would agree with that, except that this is a pattern, year after year, feature after poorly-thought-out feature. This stuff should've been addressed on paper months before it ever hit code, code review, or internal testing. CIG DOES need to do better.
Lets be honest. The 3.24 cargo change will actually DECREASE cargo hauling. The profit margins vs time for both RMC and Gold are tight compared to salvage and the risk to cargo hauling just went from medium to thru the roof with this change. The only people doing cargo hauling in 3.24 will be noobs and dum dums
Agreed. People are talking about the fun of having friends and orgs help with this stuff and it's just like...yeah, a couple times, sure. And then it's goign to be tedious, boring, and not profitable. This shit's going to fall on its face.
@UniversityofStanton Anything they do to entice players to do it will just entice players to steal it even more. Without any grief proofing like "keep inventory upon death" "playerbound items" cargo will never bee viable
I run with friends so this wont be an issue.
Based and cargopilled.
get an export, or crew prob solved
We already are in extended delay loool.
Why would they protect the cargo piracy is part of this game it’s part of the risk. If you move cargo it can be stolen. I don’t see why that surprising.
A way to tackle it could be a hefty Crime stat if you steal someone's cargo. Or in the hangers make it so they can only use the featured forklift that they showed a few months ago!
...and other players are why I wish this was a single player game. NGL, that's all I ever wanted from CIG.
...why would you back a multiplayer game when you wanted a single player game...?
@@UniversityofStanton Do you see someone making a single player game anything like this? Plus, Squadron 42 is a thing.
I was a huge fan of Wing Commander. Privateer was probably my favorite though, and that's basically what SC is. WC: Privateer for the modern era. I'm gonna have to put up with people, and it sucks. But I'll avoid interacting in-game as best I can...
In the QnA somebody said you had to provide protection (can't recall who) when loading on landing zones and that makes sense. In safe systems the risk would be lower , in the 'wild' you have a higher risk of being pirated. Just as in real life. The bug/exploit with the elevator should be adressed though, that's game breaking.
WHat is the protection squad going to use as deterrent, harsh language? The outposts have armistice zones.
No armistice restrictions
I don't see a problem, I see the requirement to have friends. In an MMO.
Oh, for sure. Armistice zones just need to go away so those friends can actually do something to help.
This is what happens when they can’t retain all those original devs who shared that same original vision for the game and go and hire a bunch of Fortnite kids and try to glaze us up with dumb tedious Arcady gameplay loops 😂
its becoming a rat paradise
this is the very reason why CIG went with player involved development. we the player are the best at finding exploits and bugs. this will get fixed just like all the others we have had over the years.
I would agree but it's not just a matter of "fix" a "bug." The decisions being made are garbage and poorly thought through. That has to be fixed at a fundamental, human level.
There is a difference between discovering issues in bugs or even deeper game breaking imbalances vs blatant issues with the design itself.
Unfortunately, it’s very common for CIG. Just look at the ROC DS, the zero-utility of the MULE, the width of the STORM, the every no-ground-clearance vehicle.
My confidence in them has slowly but surely dwindled over the 10 years I’ve been backing
@@UniversityofStanton It's the sign of deep dysfunction in their process.
Stealing cargo of the elevator is fine, but beeing able to send it back down to steal everything is not okay
That you can easily steal the cargo is fine (it's by design after all and I think it is for the best, game play wise), however the issue that allows you to interact with other player's terminals and simply steal their cargo by lowering the elevator needs to be addressed, sure. Although I believe the call out here is a bit melodramatic when this still haven't even reached wave 1... Just... Don't make the console interactable for other players. Wow.
Frankly though, this is just the latest tip of the iceberg. This kind of poor design, poor decision-making, and predictably poor execution has plagued game system after game system over the years I've played here. It's had many names. This month its name is "cargo elevators."
It's your cargo, you protect it. Simple. But the button press problem? That's got to go, that sounds like a legit exploit/bug.
Oh I absolutely believe that. I hope one of their changes with this patch is getting rid of these ridiculous armistice zones.
Bring turrets crew, or here's and idea hire escorts security. SC PU is not and never was to be a solo game. It is multi-player game and always will be.Stop blaming the devs because you didn't bring the nessisary amount of crew.
I would be right with you there if armistice zones weren't a thing. They need to go away so whatever goes down in that zone can be prosecuted.
Yeah great idea genius. For a brand new player starting out with barely any money and the payouts are terrible, small ships are meant to haul from these smaller outposts where they are most vulnerable. It’s not gonna be fun, they need to figure out a better way to do this.
"BrINg aN eSCorT!" haha
@@Niko88G "Luckily", smaller outposts do not have sales kiosks any more.
so itn not even in the PTU . and listen to yourself "pay attention to what your doing" what are you the CNN of Star citizen?
If you've played this for any amount of time, you know as well as I do this isn't a one-time thing. This has been a pattern with them, feature after feature.
I'm very confused why the game developer needs to protect the cargo and not the players playing the game.
If you can't be bothered to protect your own cargo in riskier areas, stick to hangars? Doesn't seem like a conundrum.
How exactly can they protect the cargo in an armistice zone?
@@pxkqd Good point, tho the current armistice zone isn't intended to begin with. Not allowing weapon usage in armistice zones is a stop-gap until server performance is good enough for NPC security responses to be a thing by ship and on-foot.
In the meantime, what I said still holds, even if it's more due to a temporary inability to effectively defend the cargo. Unless and until you can defend cargo at pads or simply feel comfortable regardless, stick to hangars.
CIG needs to design for gameplay as intended more so than to accommodate the temporary circumstances of the alpha.
Personally, I barely even encounter other players away from landing zones even if I linger.
Well...isnt that what testing is for? You find exploits, report them and let CIG fix it. And if they fix it in a few months, who cares? First get the System running, then make it fair.
No - testing is NOT for fleshing out the core fundamentals of a system. This is something that should have been worked out on whiteboards and on paper before even making it to code, code review, and internal testing. It absolutely never should have reached evocati. There's an all around weakness in conceptual game design thinking that is causing this to happen at all.
@@UniversityofStanton Yes, that is EXACTLY what testing is for. I was talking about that bit with the guy saying you can steal the cargo by sending the Cargoelevator back and getting the Stuff in your inventory. That is something that should not be possible. Everything else? I think it's fine.
And maybe this is excatly what CIG intended? If you dont want your stuff stolen, get an Escort, stay in Safe Spaces, etc. I don't really care for getting everything handed on a silver plate. There needs to be a certain level of danger, if your buying Cargo at derelict Outposts, etc. instead of a Space Station.
I believe we will get more AI security in the future, and it also will be funtional. Means, your getting attacked at a "secure" outpost, the outpostsecurity will help you. Just not right now, because the AI mostly isn't functional.
Tier 0 means Tier 0, nobody expects everything to be perfect from the get go. Just because it isn't your Idea of Gameplay doesn't mean it's automatically bad.
@@TrayMcBong For your 1000th repetition of "just get an escort", here ist the 1000th repetition of "You need to load cargo in an armistice zone. Escorts do not work.".
@@carstenschops7797 not all outposts are armistice zones. Andi those that are, should have Security when 3.24 comes along.
I just think you content creators need to chill out. You seem to expect them to get everything perfect on the first release. But this is not A featured complete gameplay loop, but the first iteration of one.
Damn. Okay, I'll let em know when I go to the next You Content Creators meeting.
@UniversityofStanton Thank you! Keep up the good work. 🤣
a whole ass video for a bug in a super early build that'll prob get fixed sooner or later... real drama queen ish. do better man, or turn in your evo card.
Joke's on you, I don't HAVE an evo card!
@@UniversityofStanton that makes the point of this video's existence even worse 🤦♂
This is just another way CIG is telling you Get Friends!!! This isn't a solo game, it's an MMO, and you'll have to deal with people from time to time. So just get some friends and stop bitching.
Brilliant answer. Everyone should just hire a bodyguard to follow them around and guard the terminal button, to make damn sure nobody can sneak up and do the most challenging of piracy activities; press that button. You are a genius.
@@BadTactics101 everyone is just making complaints about things they said they've wanted to do for years. Things that will actually make this a game and give us things to strive for instead of getting everything we want in a single game session or two.
Bad take, man. Plenty of people play MMOs solo, there’s nothing wrong with folks playing and simply existing with others. Forced communication to get anything done other than things like xenothreat is a goofy way to ruin a game.
Im not saying a single seater ship should overpower a multi crew ship or anything like that, but something as mundane as getting cargo from your elevator shouldn’t require an org to complete this task. You should be able to accomplish -most- things on your own with the option to request assistance for an easier, and likely more enjoyable time imo.
You shouldn’t be able to solo an idris, you should be able to load cargo.
Yea, not everyone has friends that pop up instantly in starcitizen, i think that is actually very rare. And cargo is considered to be a bit too boring for multiplayer. This really should be more solo friendly.
You've all been spoiled for too long by how things have been. Just wait. It'll only get worse.
Elliot addressed this. You touch someone else's cargo, you get a big time crime stat. Sending things back down the elevator is another matter. This is not live yet, its not in its final form. So take a deep breath and go touch grass. They are aware of the issues, and said so last week on SCL.
Ooooooo, a big time Crime Stat... I (as a trader) am sure someone is shivering their timbers because of that. Only once having a CS actually has some more consequences I will take that more seriously but no, why gimp the pirate GamePlay...
For being so "aware" of it, it sure is looking awfully...imminent.
Crime stat doesn't stop them from robbing you while you can do nothing to stop them in an armistice zone. So maybe you should touch some grass your tongue must need a break from all the boot licking. We are literally here to test and fix the game through feedback and it's what we are doing numb nuts.
I mean considering you can't get into major stations with a crimestat an already law abiding (or at least clean) player would have to sacrifice that and presumably immediately go to jail (since again they're in a controlled zone) just to fuck with your cargo for a second. On outposts etc... Well you might wanna protect your cargo but there trolls are not your biggest concern
To add, I just read a comment. Put turrets on outposts to make ganking less quick. Make nocs hostile to trolls. Make who pushes a button not affect who gets the cargo, so it just goes back into the owners inventory (seriously how has no one thought of this wtf)