I can only add real world experience. I do a lot of hog hunting. Number four Magnum is the only thing I've ever shot that doesn't penetrate through both sides of a hog. Double odd Buck goes right through them. Slugs annihilate them. Appreciate the video
It depends on how far you are. I've taken one at 30 yd. Worked well. Lately I've been using 300 Blackout with Controlled Chaos kind of expensive but extremely deadly. I've made hits up to 80 yards with that
@@lembryant9922my brother shot one with a 20 gauge and none of the pellets penetrated the rib cage. I think the concussion from the hit just stopped it's heart or something cause it immediately dropped. And we LOOKED everywhere when we were cleaning it couldn't figure out what actually killed it.
Never mind the penetration, look at the insane impact power of that 12ga with 00 Buckshot or the slug. Get hit by either one and it's all over. And many people, including myself, use a 12ga semi-auto loaded with 5 rounds of 00 buckshot for home defense. There's not going to be any surviving that kind of firepower. A friend of mine is a deputy sheriff and he arrived at a scene where a homeowner shot a home intruder in the back 3 times with a 12ga with 00 buck. He told me it was a terrible mess and to this day he can't get the image out of his mind. These weapons are very serious business.
It doesn't matter in most states if the intruder is shot in the back in the house. Some states would argue that the intruder wasn't an imminent lethal threat - if he was running away and was shot in the back.
Concern is pattern at close range, dark low light, stressed, just woken up probably not great for accuracy. I am expert marksman, however, I wouldn’t take a chance on pump shotgun hitting all my shots. They’re not going to stand still. They’re not going to be unarmed. It’s going to hard to land a shot
I'm loaded up with FliteControl #1 buck from a couple of cases I bought a few years ago. But for some reason (even though I know its not), I still 'feel' it is a little underpowered vs say offensive linemen-sized intruders. I know if I do my part with placement, it will do its part. I do think the 3" magnum shells are *overpowered* for HD (blast, flash and recoil).
I have never done a ballistic gel test, but as an Emergency Physician at a level one trauma center, I can clearly state what a shogun can do to a human being. In 2022, I was the attending physician of two shotgun victims, one shot in the upper thigh, the other upper arm/shoulder. Both of them were shot after a home invasion by the homeowners. The leg guy was trying to rob the family at 2am, a meth addict. He was hit about 10 feet distance, the wound was big, it shattered the femur severing major blood vessels, it instantly stopped the invader. The homeowner allied a pressure dressing after the man pleaded with the homeowner. By the time he arrived at our ER, Paramedics applied two tourniquets, he lost enough blood that we had to initiate a mass infusion protocol and still arrested twice before we stabilized him enough for emergency surgery. The shotgun shell that did all this damage was called a 7 1/2 game load aka bird shot. The other home invader didn't fare much better. From my experience of treating GSW's over the years, the 12 gauge shotgun is the most devastating gun for home defense, you do not need buckshot's or slugs, both are more power than you need.
Thanks for this! I have very close neighbors and use a KSG loaded with Aguila mini shells... bird shot! I know it won't go through my walls and hit neighbors close by but I also know at room to room distance it would be devastating!
Note the distance: at 10’ it’s more than likely that the entire shot column was still inside the shot cup. Thus, until acted upon by something hard (femor) it acted like a slug. Same with the thoracic cavity hit, the rib cage took the initial damage but also began to spread the shot out. Had this been much further of a shot, say down a long hallway instead of across a small room, the result would have been vastly different. At 25’ most no. 7.5 shot is already out and open, probably as much as 6-8” diameter. Not that I want to get hit by that, but it’s a much different story on terminal performance. Instead of 12-15” of penetration @ 10’, at 25’ it’s probably down to 6-8” or so. Range is the key “Pistols put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotguns, the right load at the right range will physically remove a chunk from your opponent and throw it on the floor behind him, and you will have to get someone to come clean it up with a shovel.” ~ Clint Smith
I disagree. I am a retired police detective. A load of 7 1/2 shot at 25’ (7-8 yards) leaves a terrible wound and will stop a man in his tracks. At 10’ the wad is open but the shot is still pretty well bunched up and will blow a Hole about the size of a tennis ball. It has nothing to do with the wad holding the shot together until it hits something hard like a femur or ribs. Listen to what the ER doctor is saying. A glancing wound puts in mind a wound something like a chain saw. Much tissue and bone is just gone.
I'm not a doc and I haven't done ballistic testing. But I have been shooting shotguns since the 1970s. I have hunted a variety of animals, shoot sporting clays and competed in shooting competitions. I also reload my own ammo. Payload, velocity and projectile size are all factors determining how much damage a particular load does. The firearm they are shooting can also contribute. A tighter choke increases the range of effectiveness by keeping the pattern tighter, a longer barrel will increase the velocity so it hits harder and penetrates more. So nobody can say that a specific shot size is or is not effective. Anyone trying to is pushing an agenda. The best thing for people to do is test their gun at the ranges they may be using it at with different ammo, so they can come up with the combination that produces the performance they want. It also gets people practice with their gun and know how big the pattern is at what range. So they will know what they are hitting when they pull the trigger. That makes it so there is no "best shot size for defense". There are far to many variables.
In the only case of overpenetration that i can definitely verify, a round went through an armed robber and hit a young kid I knew, and killed him. But it was not the defender (a shop keeper) who was charged- it was the armed robber.
@@jamesswitzerjr336 No, no idea man. This was in the late 90s. The kid's name was Ryan though, IIRC he was 11, and a soccer player. It was the first time his mom ever let him go to the corner store alone. It happened in Philly, at the corner of Bridge and Ditman streets. There was a little corner deli there.
@@Followme556 that's unfortunate man. When it's your time it's your time. I always wonder why like I survive falls from 75 ft up almost unscathed. Then that happens to a kid. Thankful to be alive. Don't take life for granted
Just because shotguns and rifles have more energy than handguns, doesn't make the vital organs come closer to the surface of the skin. You still need the penetration to get deep enough in a human body to hit said vital organs.
@@TheKalkara131 The amount of tissue destruction, as well as the remote wounding effects, is just not comparable between shotguns/rifles and handguns, the FBI standard is for handguns only.
@@TheKalkara131 Like was mentioned by another poster, the tissue tearing and blunt force damage caused by high energy projectiles makes much more shallow wounds far more destructive than they are with handguns. That's why the FBI standard is only intended to be a guideline for handguns. Nothing wrong with a deep penetrating projectile, it's just not nearly as critical with big boom sticks as it is with handguns.
Off hand the only over penetration incident that I cant think of is the girl that was killed on the movie set recently the bullet went straight through her and hit someone else behind her but he survived ,involving Alec Baldwin on the movie Rust i believe it was a .45lc
Which is a unique incident, I think. It was an active movie set, filming a scene. Of course there was a ton of people around. In addition, we have no idea what kind of load was used. It could've been fmj or hard cast. Point is, in my opinion for how much people worry about it there are basically no incidents of it ever happening.
Waaaay back during the VN conflict, I was one of the guys who 'fooled' around with the M-16 (well, qualified xpert actually) took a good look at the 'boonies', and basically said "FOOK this '22'; give me a friggin 12 Gauge Pump." Accordingly, I carried a Mossberg 590- and the best recommendation I can give you for resolving up close and personal 'philosophical disputes', as in one of us is going down and it AIN'T gonna be ME!!!- is to NEVER underestimate what a 12 Gauge can do in the hands of a man determined to stay alive. Especially in dense foliage where the 5.56 could and most likely WOULD be deflected by a leaf/twig, big bug etc., that Mossberg with the mil issued 00 Buck would quite literally blow holes in the forest, as well as in anyone hidden there, all without difficulty. OTOH, with a slug, and a bit of skill, one could dispatch man sized targets out to about 150 meters or so, and a with a bit of luck, a healthy distance beyond that. Bottom line, I'm still here, shotguns 'work' , and are probably the most comprehensively capable weapon available. I've fired now commonly available loads that will destroy both those gel blocks as well the table they are sitting on, with a single round, and I am not EVEN kidding. For home/building defense, 00, or 000 buck using the Federal Law Enforcement rounds, brings those pellets together in a 'meaningful' way :)
@@sgtcwhatley Sgt, son of a gun (pun intended), turns out you are correct! The gun I had (traded for it with a Marine) turns out to have been the 500 model. I only knew it as "The Mossey" but I clearly remember being able to change barrels on it which the successor 590 apparently cannot. The other thing I remember that stands out, was that contrary to many of the other shotguns , mine had two of the slide 'forks' whereas some of the guy's weapons only had one. This was 1971 or early 72 if I remember correctly. As usual, the NCO's come through again :)
Some mathemetician somewhere said that no.1 buckshot is the theoretical best. I venture to say no villian will be able to tell the difference between any kind of buckshot when hit.
If you aim that #4 Buck at the head/neck area you will 1. Poke out the eyeballs 2. Destroy the windpipe 3. Slice open the Carotid Arteries on the sides of the neck. These lead to blindness, extreme respiratory distress, and sudden massive blood loss to the brain. All or any of these will end the threat right then and there.
Here's something you should check out. That synthetic clear gel is a little harder than the pig gel the FBI uses for testing, so you may want to take that into consideration. That #4 buck would probably make it 12-14" into the Pig gel. I recently found that one out myself.
The gel in this video is uncalibrated garbage. That's evidenced by the brenneke penetrating so little, that slug will penetrate around 30" in real 10% gel. And #4 buck will penetrate consistently past 12". The results in this video are invalid.
If you check the spread on both of these rounds....look, the #4 buck is going to leave over 20 holes the size of a 22LR bullet in someone all at once. That is going to stop them; I don't care how much crack they've smoked. At home defense range with this spread it is going to require someone to point...not necessarily aim. Whereas 00 Buck has around 9 pellets which are going to be more devastating, but the gun is going to kick and your shot placement in the middle of the night/half asleep and disoriented is going to be less accurate (high /right). This will not be the case for many who are familiar and train frequently, but for the vast majority of people...the odds of failure are higher with 00 Buck than with #4.
If I was designing a defense load, I'd consider 21-24 pellets of #4 buck with the same powder charge... launch it was 1250 or so. Should reach the low end of the 12-18" range. As an apartment dweller, that's about what I'd want. The 20-pellet 20-gauge #3 load would also be a good possibility. Actually a bit surprised that 16 pellet #1 buck isn't more common... that should be goldilocks for penetration.
Number one buckshot can be tricky to find...I've got 15 shells of it in 12 gauge, and another 15 in 16 gauge...I'd like to find another 10-15 shells for the 12 gauge, but we do not buy ammo online, so it might be a while...our 00 supply is okay for the moment, and we have a little #4 buckshot...honestly, in our small house I think the 3 inch magnum turkey loads would end most problems...
Good test. It would be interesting one day, if possible, to see similar tests from 20 ga, as 12 ga could be too intimidating in terms of recoil to some people.
#3 buckshot (20 pellet) hits heavy. It's what I use just cause my 20 is a smaller gun and easier to use indoors. Shot all kinds of stuff with it. Plywood, a junk car door, old refrigerator, old tvs, metal folding chairs, a frozen turkey, 5 gallon jugs of water. No doubt it will knock down to toughest attackers
FBI smart people (lol). They dropped the 10 mm for the 40 SW.. then dropped the 40sw for a 9mm . Real smart. I believe they are pissing in the wind. Pistol round 9mm to 45 are basically the same in street results. Wound track during autopsy were marginal different. I personally like OO buck. Just for record the results of #4 field shot make serious wounds on a LEO. Face and neck were hit at 20 yard by escaped convict.
The full-power 10mm was the first choice of the FBI testing! HOWEVER, the FBI dropped the full-power 10mm due to excessive recoil for "smaller 'recoil-sensitive' agents", so they developed the 10mm 'lite' load that was duplicated by the .40S&W that actually fit into those with narrower/shorter grips suited to 'smaller hands' than .45ACP. Read into that what you will... Now as to shotgun loads, do I choose nine .33" 59gr pellets ( 00B ) or 27 .24" 21gr (4B) pellets? Both at 1300-1350fps... Or do I choose 20 .24" 4B from a 20ga at that same velocity at 5-7yds (15-21'). My HD shotguns in both 12 and 20ga are loaded with 4B. Maximizing pellet count/kinetic energy on target/multiple wound channels/shock to perp
the slug drops a deer in its tracks from 125 yards or less ...saw a man that was shot with a slug wearing a plate at 25 feet ..devasting to say the least
…and some bad guys DO wear body armour.. Slugs are the best. The only exception would be if you live in very close proximity to your neighbours. Train, train, train just as you would for a fire/tornado,etc so your family knows the drill and reduce the chances of them being hit in a real defense situation.
I stagger my load of 5 rounds , round 1and 2 , 9 pellet 00Buckshot , 3and 4 , 21 pellet #4 buck shot and a 1 ounce slug for #5 , and a set of 6 rounds on my side saddle .
Second that bs about over concern regarding over penetration. Number one priority is staying alive… that means hitting your target and making sure they don’t hit you
if you're shooting to kill, I suppose the deeper penetration is better - but lets be real anybody shot with the #4 is also going to be stopped in their tracks on impact. might have a slightly better chance surviving with emergency medical help but I wouldn't count on it...
I don't deny that. Realistically, even birdshot would most likely be enough, but in the world possible scenario of somebody being high or drunk on something and not feeling any pain, then the penetration is going to be crucial.
If it does not reach far enough, it may not stop the attack, that is FBI's point. You may discomfort the attacker, but if he is able to continue his attack, you could get seriously hurt.
The allure of #4 buck is that it has minimal penetration through walls. If you're using it for home defense, the odds are high that there are people in other rooms you don't want to hit. If I'm not worried about over penetration, I'll just pick up my. 357 sig, which is faster, more mobile and has more capacity.
No. 4 buckshot is just a little light on the penetration especially as range increases. I've done a considerable amount of testing in 2 3/4'' , 3'' and 3 1/2'' loads with magnum, magnum buffer added, copper plated, etc. No.4 buckshot and found that it lacks enough mass to reliably break small bones and or defeat multiple layers of fabric and still penetrate to 12-18''. It often will underpenetrate. It's not that it wont work, especially at close home invasion ranges, it's just that its not entirely reliable in reaching the 12-18'' of penetration when engaging targets with clothing and also especially low penetration when encountering small bones
@@jerryp9375 Absolutely. Given the choice I'll stay with 00 or better yet 000 Buck but #4 is no joke. Yeah, especially a 12 GA Breneke slug-incredible penetration compare to a foster type slug
I agree. Breneke slugs are far better penetrating slugs than Foster type slugs. This makes them a far better choice when barriers are encountered such as automobile doors, walls (especially the old plaster walls), wood, etc
@@frankbrowning328 I recently saw a video on the Breneke Sabot slug compared to a foster both in 12ga. Same lay up with two clear gel blocks back to back. The foster unraveled to become a 2,1/2” long piece of lead where as the Breneke did not deform one bit. It also penetrated much further. If I were up against vehicles or other hard targets, that is what I would like to be shooting.
@@lowandslow3939 I agree. That has been my experience too. The Foster slug is fine as a man stopper but it really (Like you said) unravels and this makes for far less penetration.
Number three or bigger will get sufficient penetration up to 25 yds,4 is the smallest one should consider.Gel means little ,a bb that will only raise a welt on a human will penetrate three inches in gel.Buckshot has proven to be nearly as good as a rifle in situations, slugs may be better but little data on them.
Which is why 3" is the validation standard for FBI gel with a .177 bb. However, they also make it clear that any round that penetrates 12-18" in gel, will penetrate deep enough in a body to hit and destroy vital organs.
No wonder a relatively small number of Wells Fargo stages were robbed back in the day. Nobody in their right mind would risk a load of 12 or 10 gauge 00 buck let alone both barrels! With primitive 19th century medicine and a day on horseback from the nearest doctor a heavy shotgun load was 'over and out' !
Yeah and the 00 buckshot are three times bigger than the #4. So you do the math. If the 00 Bs pellets are three times bigger than the #4, which are 27 pellets. 3 #4 Bs roughly equals ONE 00 Bs. 3x9 is 27 last time I checked. Roughly the same amount of lead. The difference is the spread pattern. The number of pellets isn't a huge mindblower if the pellets are smaller.
@@wadewilson8011 00B shot is .33", 4B is .24". Three times bigger? Nope! OK. lets look at pellet weight -- 00B is 59gr, 4B is 21gr So yes, about the same weight-on-target. BUT 'Home-invasion perps' bleed more per sq in with more/multiple wound channels!
Thank you brother...common loads for the common man. By the way, the standard FBI load for 12 gage during the Miami Vice 1980's: Remington 2-3/4 "00" buck.
Although the agent used the shotgun, he only hit the perp with 1 pellet - on the bad guy's foot. I don't understand how all of those shots (5-6 of buckshot?) failed to hit the bad guy.
Just wanted to let you know my thoughts on this...the 18 , 19 inches is without any clothes, but with the FBI 3 or 4 layers of clothing 🤔 might be just right ✅ 😉
With some denim on the front of that block I bet you would see 16-18" penetration with the 00 buck. The slug and rifle rounds would be awful risky for home defense as they will over penetrate multiple walls and continue on. ITs much better to stick with #4 buck for home defense imho. Its a devastating blast and multiple shots is beyond deadly at home defense ranges. Check out Paul Harrel's "Why shotguns don't suck for home defense" video. It shows how bad a .223 Ar bullet and 00 9 shot buck can overpenetrate multiple walls and still explode 2 litre soda jugs past the outside wall.
The 12-16" standard on Gel was set for pistol rounds. Still relatively applicable to shotgun shells, as theyre in the same velocity range (rifle rounds are a much different matter) but being short on penetration from a shotgun shell isn't a bad thing. It means every ounce of energy that shell puts into a target, stays in that target. While I prefer 00 Buck for a defensive situation, #4 buck shouldn't be counted out. It still dumps a ton of energy, has a slightly larger pattern than 00 buck, and generally won't penetrate external walls in a home.
The gel in this video is uncalibrated garbage. That's evidenced by the brenneke penetrating so little, that slug will penetrate around 30" in real 10% gel. And #4 buck will penetrate consistently past 12". The results in this video are invalid.
Shotgun loads make for a variety of conditions. I guess, if you had an assailant in a home invasion scenario very close to someone in your family, or even holding them as a "shield" any shot might be off the table unless you were close enough to make a head shot. A slug may have an advantage because it is ine projectile. In any event, if you miss your target, these loads are going through walls.
No.4 is my preferred load for home defense. I’d like to think it won’t over penetrate walls/floor/ceiling, and still be able to dispatch any sort of two-legged game.
No. 4 will have NO problem destroying an intruder. And it's not going to be just one shot anyway, most people will unload the thing into the bad guy in order to stop him asap! I saw a news story years ago where a homeowner killed a home invader with a .410 shotgun loaded with No.6. So yeah, No. 4 in a 12ga. will definitely do the job.
I prefer #4 as well. Got lots of kids/pets in the house. My 12 GA is semi-auto, so if the first doesn't get'em, by the time I get to the 9th, the intruder will either be running away or not running at all.
@@bkilpatr100 Honestly don't need to worry about #4 not being enough, it's going to be plenty. I have personally seen (and I really wish I didn't) autopsy photos of someone hit with nothing a single shell of birdshot. Now allot of internet forum warriors will tell you birdshot is totally inadequate for home defense, that it will penetrate 2 inches or less or even bounce off. Well I can tell you that at 20 feet and under it will leave a softball size hole of mangled mess about 6 inches deep. Instant fatality, and that's just birdshot.. People don't consider that in a home defense situation you are likely going to be at very close range and what that close range does to pattern and power.
@@-Zevin- That’s not true. Birdshot is made for small birds. In order to kill with it, you’d have to fire about 5 or 6 rounds of it to someone’s chest cavity.
@@videogazer801 You are objectively factually 100% wrong. What is the spread of birdshot 10-15 feet away? very very little, so you are talking about 1oz of lead in a compressed ball coming out of a 12gauge, at close range this is 100% fatal. Again go look at autopsy photos if you want to lose your lunch. It's very Ironic though that you comment with "that's not true" when your comment is completely provably untrue. "You have to fire 5-6 shots into someone's chest" to be effective? You literally just made that up, complete nonsense. Birdshot is made for birds so that magically makes it not dangerous? The entire point of birdshot is to spread out and increase hit probability at distance on relatively small fragile animals, *at distance* When you are hunting birds you are shooting 15-30yards away with a large spread. The greater the distance the larger the pattern, the closer the distance the smaller the pattern. When you shoot a person 10-20 feet away it's a entirely different thing. Now if you said birdshot was ineffective on humans at 15+ yards (45+ feet) I would agree with you, buck shot is far far more effective out to 50 or so yards, and slugs out past 100 yards, distance is the point, It's basic Physics.. the most important physical principals here are concentrated mass and inertia, for example birdshot bbs are very small, in diameter and most importantly in mass, so they have little inertia , which means their energy dissipates quickly; the closer you are the more energy the projectiles will have, and the closer the bbs themselves are the more energy will be transferred to a small area. Inertia is the same reason higher grain rifle bullets hit harder out at longer distances, like when you compare 5.56 to 7.62x51, the .30cal 7.62 bullets have nearly double or more than double the mass of a 5.56 round, this equals more inertia (when accounting for similar projectile velocities and BC) , and thus slows down less quickly and hits harder out to longer ranges. Here is a extreme example to get the point across, door breaching rounds are literally metal powder. Not even bbs just powder, yet it can blow your arm off at point blank, and is harmless 50 feet away. Birdshot is like this too, but still effective for longer than breeching rounds , a real bad choice at any moderate range, but still 100% lethal close in, for example across a room indoors..
27 pellets of #4 buck has a combined diameter of 6.48 inches. 9 pellets of 00 has a combined diameter of 2.97 inches. There's a video by a channel called Brobee (I think) where his kid took a whitetail deer at maybe 25~30 yards with 20 pellet #4 buck from a 20 gauge which has a lower velocity than 27 pellet 12 gauge, when gutting the deer he found that many pellets passed through both lungs, reached the heart, went through the liver and shattered a bunch of ribs. Does anyone really believe 7 more pellets going 200fps faster won't drop a man at less than 10 yards??? Massively more tissue destruction with a good bit of reduced penetration through people, walls and obstructions like doors, dressers, TVs, closets full of clothes etc. #4 is safer yet more effective than 00.
Nobody seems to understand the FBI gel tests. The FBI went with 12 to 18" because many police shoots involve going through a car window or door and so they wanted excess penetration. That is not a factor for civilian self-defense. Rarely would shooting through such a barrier be a justified self-defense shooting. The human heart and lungs are two inches under the surface of the skin and the average human torso is under 9 inches from chest to spine. I'm not suggesting that all you need is two inches of penetration since you have ribs or sternum to penetrate, but you certainly don't need 18 inches unless you plan on killing whatever is behind the assailant as well.
And both over penetrate badly. The gel in this video is uncalibrated garbage. That's evidenced by the brenneke penetrating so little, that slug will penetrate around 30" in real 10% gel. And #4 buck will penetrate consistently past 12". The results in this video are invalid.
Slugs are also pure lead and almost hollow, so they deform a LOT when they hit anything harder than a stiff breeze. They will definitely overpenetrate a human target but it won't go very far afterward
I don't think you said how many pellets or velocity was in your Rio #4 buck load. What do you think about Rio royal #4 27 pellet @1300 fps? And im running the same gem you used in this video.
In lindia buck shot is banned. Only choice is to depend on bird shots with lower no as no 2 no 1 or slugs. And lastly it depends on what is available imidiatly on such threats.
The shotgun is my preferred weapon, and I will always reach for it first. I just like it best. I use a broad array of shotguns in various gauges, including two legally manufactured NFA Short Barrel Shotguns in 12 and 16 Gauge made from Stevens 311s. I favor the 16 Gauge over all others for a variety of reasons, and I will endure almost any effort or discomfort required to have some kind of shotgun with me at all times. Usually that's the Stevens Model 311 16 Gauge SBS with 7 1/2" barrels. I use a modified Bianchi X2100 shoulder rig to carry it. It's surprisingly manageable and comfortable to do, and it can be used just like a conventional handgun. Almost... 😏 But it surely does wear on you, and you need to take a break now and then because of it's considerable heft. Which is almost 4 1/2 pounds loaded. Not counting the weight of all the ammunition. 😓 If I can't manage that because it's just too hot to dress for concealing such a large, heavy and weird piece of ordnance, I've still got my little Bond Arms Grizzly derringer. Which is essentially a pocket size .410 shotgun. 😛 Results with Winchester OOO Buck loads are fairly impressive. 😀 I'm sure there are many who would question my strange and arduous choices in firepower, but I'm having fun. So there! 😁
Most important thing is that you actually carry something. The old saying of a 22lr on your hip is better than a 9mm in your nightstand is very accurate. Even if it's something most internet experts say isn't effective, if it's something you'll actually carry every day, it's effective. Shot placement trumps caliber either way.
Not fully. I've had lots of issues with it actually. The only loads I've found that run semi reliably are higher powered stuff, 00 buck and slugs. I was under the impression that the ARGO system, which the panzer clones, can run any load. This one doesn't.
What happens if the fight is outside and the bad guy is coming from a distance shooting a rifle at u is birdshot gonna doit? Get a real shot brother your gonna screw yourself up
Any one of those would get the job done in a home defense shooting I have number 4 buckshot in my home defense shotgun and wouldn't think for a minute that if I had to use it to defend my family I know for a fact the intruder Would be toast
At only 21 feet, or 7 yards, 00 buckshot is absolutely devastating. I've tested mine at that distance and the spread is only about 3", meaning you're going to be blasting a gigantic hole in the bad guy, and the pellets will literally shred him internally. No chance of surviving that, no way. I've seen photos of what 00 buck does to a human body center of mass at close range.. Basically leaves a huge, gaping hole all the way through. Perfect home defense weapon and load!
Good tests, but this is a shotgun with Buckshot. FBI standardthe FBI Protocol kinda goes out the window with that much damage IMHO. The FBI Protocol of 12" minimum is basically for handguns and rifles determining the effectiveness of single projectiles. Again this is my opinion as I couldn't find anything useful on Google to say otherwise.
I do know that they use that same standard for all of their weapons. FBI Ballistics Lab members have publicly stated so. I'm assuming that encompasses shotguns as well.
Neither 4B or 00B is ideal. #1 and #2B (I prefer #2B) are perfect for home defense. Enough penetration to get the job done but not too much either. There are a few more pellets than 00B. Around 12 for #1 and 16 for #2 for light recoil loads versus 8 for 00. #4B is a little light in the penetration department. By my experience, nickel plated #4Bs will average 10-11" into gel with 4 layers of denim. Nickel plated buck penetrates deeper than copper plated or non plated and its still a little light. These are with impact velocities of 1150-1175 fps and muzzle velocity of 1200fps for all loads. There are no 12ga #2B available as far as I've ever seen and only heavy loads for 12ga #1B so you have to load them yourself. But if you use the right components, you can have excellent performing home defense ammo that patterns tight and has light recoil. Like a target load. Good stuff!
Merry Christmas! I'm always looking for a better performer but right now my best performer is: a new, primed Fiocchi hull, 22.7 grs of Super Handicap powder, a 12 ga. .070" nitro card on top of powder (so powder will not get past the wad's gas seal), a ballistic products LBC wad split 4 ways, a ballistic products 1/8" 20 ga. felt wad on the bottom of the shot cup (for extra cushion), 15 pellets of nickel plated #2 buck, 17 grains of ballistic products original buffer, a tiny amount of clear nail polish to seal the buffer in. All this is available from Ballistic Products. This load patterns beautifully but I have not chronographed it yet. It should be relatively close to 1200 fps out of an 18.5" barrel.
11 inches is shy of what your looking for? I agree with a single shot of 9mm lol😂 it’s a whole like 40 bullets?? Idk a shit ton lol the 11 inches is fine.
Because of my Urban setting, I have #4 Buck ready for home defence. This is due to other videos I have seen from guys like Paul Harrell showing excessive penetration in your typical suburban home. For me, Buck and Slugs are for protection and hunting in rural and back country areas. (And the Zombie Apocalypse!) When I was working in the Arctic I had 00 Buck and Slugs for protection from Polar Bears and Wolverines.
At home-defense range, 200 - #7 buckshot causes total tissue devastation up to 6-inches deep and a hole up to 8-inches wide. Blood pressure would crash almost immediately with a 20-gauge or 12-gauge bird shot impact. Honestly...getting hit with a shotgun loaded with feathers would probably be devastating. Years ago, I watched what a 20-gauge rifled slug did to a bobcat... i didn't realize an animal could run off with it's gut package dragging on the ground behind it. I don't think the .61 cal slug ever slowed down going through that poor kitty. All this said, I'm confident that bird shot would be sufficient to deter any further aggression in most situations.
I'm sure if it was your loved one behind the target you'd be worried about over penatration. BTW there's be several instances semi recently in Chicago where kids have been shot and some killed from bullets coming thru their homes walls. A 2 year old was in bed got shot in the head and killed by a stray bullets. Granted the natives if South and westsides of Chicago are terrible shots and most shoot 1 handed and some sideways one handed like idiots. Thank God those type font know how to actually shoot accurately or the murder rate would be much higher. I just know Chicago bc that's where my family from and I spend a lot of time there but I'm positive that's not the only place bullets go thru houses and hit unintended targets 🤔
With an AR-410 2 1/2" is the only choice and High Brass cycles the best so 00 to #6 works good! No need for slugs! Too many pistol rounds are better! FKJB!
The lack of penetration is a plus imo. 1 projectile with low penetration is no bueno, but when there's 2 dozen projectiles under penetrating it becomes a non issue. Mathematically there is roughly 250 inches of penetration with #4 buck. 00B is the standard for military solely for the fact of better barrier penetration. #4B is an outstanding round for home defense and deer hunting with dogs or on a drive.
I have no close neighbors, so collateral damage is not a salient concern. 1st round is 3" #000 followed by 7 rds. of #00 with 12 in each one. S/B adequate.
I don’t see much of a point of a 12 inch minimum on shotgun spread. The 12 inch thing was in case the bullet hits somewhere like an arm or dense material, where with 12 or 21 pellets from a shotgun, a good amount of the pellets will hit soft tissue regardless. #4 at 11 inch depth seems like a safe bet to not worry too much about pass through, and that’s a lot of holes.
Yes, less penetration than double 0 independently of the gel or body but do you prefer 27 different wounds channels or just 9 to get the maximum effectiveness? It sounds ridiculous but I guess if vital organs and arteries could speak they would chose #00 buckshot to get more possibilities of not been pierced.
I'll never understand why some people intentionally use birdshot when there are such better options available. I mean, if birdshot is all you have, fine. But to use it on purpose, when you have a choice? I've seen birdshot from a turkey choke fail to stop ground squirrels at inside-house distances. My defensive shotgun is always loaded with Fed or Hornady 8 pellet 00 buck with a couple 1 oz rifled slugs on the Sidesaddle. You do you, boo, but I roll with buckshot and leave birdshot for the birds.
Bird nr.1 works. Social work at home will generally be less than 20ft. (edit - many countries have the big ones on the "no-no list" - hold on to your 1st and 2nd A)
@ulflyng4072 Of course, it works within narrow parameters. Anything coming out the end of a muzzle is probably pretty effective at across the room distance. The question is why you would use ammunition that is only effective at baseball bat distance. If you are so concerned about over penetration that you feel compelled to use ammunition only effective within a few feet, it seems maybe a gun isn't the right tool for you. Maybe a small camp axe, baseball bat, or machete would be more appropriate. Responsible adults realize there is a difference between possible and prudent, between can and should. You can defend yourself with a gun, but should you? If you are so surrounded that you can't clear a backstop, no. You shouldn't. Compromising the effectiveness of your ammunition is a poor substitute for safe and responsible gun handling. Birdshot is still lethal force, and you are still morally and almost certainly legally obligated not to direct lethal force towards an uncleared backstop.
You are too close to the block. If the shot has not had time to spread, it will act like a slug with buckshot following the pathway of the shot in front of it for a few inches
When I was a deputy sheriff we carried #4 buck shot to increase the probability of hits. I shot a fleeing felon in the legs and broke both of them. That was after passing through a privacy fence.
It all depends on where you are planning to use it. If you are in an apartment building....overpenetration is definitely something that needs to be considered. Nobody wants to defend themselves only to find out the neighbors bedroom was in your shot path. If you are defending your farmhouse...sure overpenetration is no big deal. In the average home, there really isnt going to be a line of sight shot further than 10-15 yards....and #4 buckshot at 10 yards is pretty devastating to a perpetrator.
Ironically most people using #4 buckshot would decry using a Ruger 10/22 for self defense when both a .22LR and #4 buckshot are about the same size. A Ruger 10/22 can have a 25 round magazine that can be mag dumped fast.
You sound knowledgeable, what's the difference between Rio #4 buck shot 21 pellet verses 27 pellet, besides count of course ? Would recoil be noticeable less with 21 or just negligible ? Another way to ask is if you could only buy a case of one or the other which would you chose and why ? I appreciate your time spent in responding, thanks n' God bless brother
Oh don't go thinking I'm an expert haha, I'm not. I've read some reports and think about it a bit, but I have no real world experience. As for the difference, I honestly don't think there would be much. 21 count would have slightly bigger pellets I'd assume, hence they have a bit less, but the size difference would be pretty small. I can't imagine there's much of any recoil difference either
![Stuff You Should Know About Buckshot [Part 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3haq5BFh7qs/mqdefault.jpg)
![Stuff You Should Know About Buckshot [Part 1]](/img/tr.png)
I can only add real world experience. I do a lot of hog hunting. Number four Magnum is the only thing I've ever shot that doesn't penetrate through both sides of a hog. Double odd Buck goes right through them. Slugs annihilate them. Appreciate the video
Does #4 kill a hog even though it doesn't penetrate both sides?
It depends on how far you are. I've taken one at 30 yd. Worked well. Lately I've been using 300 Blackout with Controlled Chaos kind of expensive but extremely deadly. I've made hits up to 80 yards with that
For self defense thats a good thing. You don't want over penetration.
@@lembryant9922my brother shot one with a 20 gauge and none of the pellets penetrated the rib cage. I think the concussion from the hit just stopped it's heart or something cause it immediately dropped. And we LOOKED everywhere when we were cleaning it couldn't figure out what actually killed it.
Double aught
Never get tired of seeing shotgun load tests. Thanks for taking the time
Never mind the penetration, look at the insane impact power of that 12ga with 00 Buckshot or the slug. Get hit by either one and it's all over. And many people, including myself, use a 12ga semi-auto loaded with 5 rounds of 00 buckshot for home defense. There's not going to be any surviving that kind of firepower. A friend of mine is a deputy sheriff and he arrived at a scene where a homeowner shot a home intruder in the back 3 times with a 12ga with 00 buck. He told me it was a terrible mess and to this day he can't get the image out of his mind. These weapons are very serious business.
It doesn't matter in most states if the intruder is shot in the back in the house. Some states would argue that the intruder wasn't an imminent lethal threat - if he was running away and was shot in the back.
Concern is pattern at close range, dark low light, stressed, just woken up probably not great for accuracy. I am expert marksman, however, I wouldn’t take a chance on pump shotgun hitting all my shots. They’re not going to stand still. They’re not going to be unarmed. It’s going to hard to land a shot
The redeeming quality of 00 is that you only need to hit one shot… anywhere in the body virtually. It’s like getting shot with a mini cannon ball
I think I’ll ditch the pump and go for a semi auto shotgun, got any suggestions? Preferably something compact in terms of overall length
@@democracymanifest6543panzar arms bp 12g
#4 will get the job done but 00 buck guarantees it.
Just the opposite in my opinion.
I'm loaded up with FliteControl #1 buck from a couple of cases I bought a few years ago.
But for some reason (even though I know its not), I still 'feel' it is a little underpowered vs say offensive linemen-sized intruders.
I know if I do my part with placement, it will do its part.
I do think the 3" magnum shells are *overpowered* for HD (blast, flash and recoil).
Thats whats in mine hand guns dont compare 18 inch barral
I have never done a ballistic gel test, but as an Emergency Physician at a level one trauma center, I can clearly state what a shogun can do to a human being.
In 2022, I was the attending physician of two shotgun victims, one shot in the upper thigh, the other upper arm/shoulder.
Both of them were shot after a home invasion by the homeowners.
The leg guy was trying to rob the family at 2am, a meth addict.
He was hit about 10 feet distance, the wound was big, it shattered the femur severing major blood vessels, it instantly stopped the invader.
The homeowner allied a pressure dressing after the man pleaded with the homeowner.
By the time he arrived at our ER, Paramedics applied two tourniquets, he lost enough blood that we had to initiate a mass infusion protocol and still arrested twice before we stabilized him enough for emergency surgery.
The shotgun shell that did all this damage was called a 7 1/2 game load aka bird shot.
The other home invader didn't fare much better.
From my experience of treating GSW's over the years, the 12 gauge shotgun is the most devastating gun for home defense, you do not need buckshot's or slugs, both are more power than you need.
Well said!
Thanks for this! I have very close neighbors and use a KSG loaded with Aguila mini shells... bird shot! I know it won't go through my walls and hit neighbors close by but I also know at room to room distance it would be devastating!
Note the distance: at 10’ it’s more than likely that the entire shot column was still inside the shot cup. Thus, until acted upon by something hard (femor) it acted like a slug. Same with the thoracic cavity hit, the rib cage took the initial damage but also began to spread the shot out.
Had this been much further of a shot, say down a long hallway instead of across a small room, the result would have been vastly different. At 25’ most no. 7.5 shot is already out and open, probably as much as 6-8” diameter. Not that I want to get hit by that, but it’s a much different story on terminal performance. Instead of 12-15” of penetration @ 10’, at 25’ it’s probably down to 6-8” or so. Range is the key
“Pistols put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotguns, the right load at the right range will physically remove a chunk from your opponent and throw it on the floor behind him, and you will have to get someone to come clean it up with a shovel.” ~ Clint Smith
I disagree. I am a retired police detective. A load of 7 1/2 shot at 25’ (7-8 yards) leaves a terrible wound and will stop a man in his tracks. At 10’ the wad is open but the shot is still pretty well bunched up and will blow a Hole about the size of a tennis ball. It has nothing to do with the wad holding the shot together until it hits something hard like a femur or ribs. Listen to what the ER doctor is saying. A glancing wound puts in mind a wound something like a chain saw. Much tissue and bone is just gone.
I'm not a doc and I haven't done ballistic testing. But I have been shooting shotguns since the 1970s. I have hunted a variety of animals, shoot sporting clays and competed in shooting competitions. I also reload my own ammo.
Payload, velocity and projectile size are all factors determining how much damage a particular load does. The firearm they are shooting can also contribute. A tighter choke increases the range of effectiveness by keeping the pattern tighter, a longer barrel will increase the velocity so it hits harder and penetrates more.
So nobody can say that a specific shot size is or is not effective. Anyone trying to is pushing an agenda.
The best thing for people to do is test their gun at the ranges they may be using it at with different ammo, so they can come up with the combination that produces the performance they want.
It also gets people practice with their gun and know how big the pattern is at what range. So they will know what they are hitting when they pull the trigger.
That makes it so there is no "best shot size for defense". There are far to many variables.
In the only case of overpenetration that i can definitely verify, a round went through an armed robber and hit a young kid I knew, and killed him. But it was not the defender (a shop keeper) who was charged- it was the armed robber.
Thanks for the information. Do you have any idea what ammo was used?
@@jamesswitzerjr336 No, no idea man. This was in the late 90s. The kid's name was Ryan though, IIRC he was 11, and a soccer player. It was the first time his mom ever let him go to the corner store alone. It happened in Philly, at the corner of Bridge and Ditman streets. There was a little corner deli there.
@@Followme556 that's unfortunate man. When it's your time it's your time. I always wonder why like I survive falls from 75 ft up almost unscathed. Then that happens to a kid. Thankful to be alive. Don't take life for granted
@@RubensBarrichello. Every day is a gift.
@@Followme556 thats really sad. Its obviously really stuck with you. God bless you
I bought a ton of that Rio 00BUCK and it runs great in my shotgun. Only problem is that it has a long length and I can only fit 4 in my shotgun.
Same
It is worth mentioning that the FBI 12-18" standard was only for handguns, and does not apply to shotguns and rifles. Nor was it ever intended to.
There's nothing wrong with wanting a lot of penetration, but there are certainly scenarios where less is more.
Just because shotguns and rifles have more energy than handguns, doesn't make the vital organs come closer to the surface of the skin. You still need the penetration to get deep enough in a human body to hit said vital organs.
@@TheKalkara131 The amount of tissue destruction, as well as the remote wounding effects, is just not comparable between shotguns/rifles and handguns, the FBI standard is for handguns only.
@@Followme556 are you one of those people who think Vmax is a good SD load?
@@TheKalkara131 Like was mentioned by another poster, the tissue tearing and blunt force damage caused by high energy projectiles makes much more shallow wounds far more destructive than they are with handguns. That's why the FBI standard is only intended to be a guideline for handguns.
Nothing wrong with a deep penetrating projectile, it's just not nearly as critical with big boom sticks as it is with handguns.
Off hand the only over penetration incident that I cant think of is the girl that was killed on the movie set recently the bullet went straight through her and hit someone else behind her but he survived ,involving Alec Baldwin on the movie Rust i believe it was a .45lc
Which is a unique incident, I think. It was an active movie set, filming a scene. Of course there was a ton of people around. In addition, we have no idea what kind of load was used. It could've been fmj or hard cast. Point is, in my opinion for how much people worry about it there are basically no incidents of it ever happening.
Waaaay back during the VN conflict, I was one of the guys who 'fooled' around with the M-16 (well, qualified xpert actually) took a good look at the 'boonies', and basically said "FOOK this '22'; give me a friggin 12 Gauge Pump." Accordingly, I carried a Mossberg 590- and the best recommendation I can give you for resolving up close and personal 'philosophical disputes', as in one of us is going down and it AIN'T gonna be ME!!!- is to NEVER underestimate what a 12 Gauge can do in the hands of a man determined to stay alive. Especially in dense foliage where the 5.56 could and most likely WOULD be deflected by a leaf/twig, big bug etc., that Mossberg with the mil issued 00 Buck would quite literally blow holes in the forest, as well as in anyone hidden there, all without difficulty. OTOH, with a slug, and a bit of skill, one could dispatch man sized targets out to about 150 meters or so, and a with a bit of luck, a healthy distance beyond that.
Bottom line, I'm still here, shotguns 'work' , and are probably the most comprehensively capable weapon available. I've fired now commonly available loads that will destroy both those gel blocks as well the table they are sitting on, with a single round, and I am not EVEN kidding.
For home/building defense, 00, or 000 buck using the Federal Law Enforcement rounds, brings those pellets together in a 'meaningful' way :)
Really?
@@sgtcwhatley really :) take a look at one of the tests of the relatively new Benelli semi 12 gauge, even puts the pumps of my day to shame..
@@seeratlasdtyria4584 I meant that you were carrying a Mossberg 590 during the vietnam conflict. They didn't come out until the late 1980s.
@@sgtcwhatley Sgt, son of a gun (pun intended), turns out you are correct! The gun I had (traded for it with a Marine) turns out to have been the 500 model. I only knew it as "The Mossey" but I clearly remember being able to change barrels on it which the successor 590 apparently cannot. The other thing I remember that stands out, was that contrary to many of the other shotguns , mine had two of the slide 'forks' whereas some of the guy's weapons only had one. This was 1971 or early 72 if I remember correctly. As usual, the NCO's come through again :)
You're a badass, thanks for your service. @@seeratlasdtyria4584
Claymore Mines.... best home defense...never let them inside
Some mathemetician somewhere said that no.1 buckshot is the theoretical best. I venture to say no villian will be able to tell the difference between any kind of buckshot when hit.
Exactly
12 pellet 2 3/4" 00 buckshot is better than 16 pellet #1.
3” 000 enters the chat
@@pj4433 I am a big fan of 34 pellet 2 3/4" No.4 magnum buck myself.
@@Valorius41 pellet 3" #4
If you aim that #4 Buck at the head/neck area you will 1. Poke out the eyeballs 2. Destroy the windpipe 3. Slice open the Carotid Arteries on the sides of the neck. These lead to blindness, extreme respiratory distress, and sudden massive blood loss to the brain. All or any of these will end the threat right then and there.
Here's something you should check out. That synthetic clear gel is a little harder than the pig gel the FBI uses for testing, so you may want to take that into consideration. That #4 buck would probably make it 12-14" into the Pig gel. I recently found that one out myself.
The gel in this video is uncalibrated garbage. That's evidenced by the brenneke penetrating so little, that slug will penetrate around 30" in real 10% gel. And #4 buck will penetrate consistently past 12". The results in this video are invalid.
More than deadly the #4 Buck is also I believe.
@@ryantogo8359I was a little worried about the penetration with the Brenneke slug, as that it what I sometimes carry for bear protection...
If you check the spread on both of these rounds....look, the #4 buck is going to leave over 20 holes the size of a 22LR bullet in someone all at once. That is going to stop them; I don't care how much crack they've smoked. At home defense range with this spread it is going to require someone to point...not necessarily aim. Whereas 00 Buck has around 9 pellets which are going to be more devastating, but the gun is going to kick and your shot placement in the middle of the night/half asleep and disoriented is going to be less accurate (high /right). This will not be the case for many who are familiar and train frequently, but for the vast majority of people...the odds of failure are higher with 00 Buck than with #4.
#4 buck is 24 caliber not 22
Those crazy crackheads!
Recoil is the same.
If I was designing a defense load, I'd consider 21-24 pellets of #4 buck with the same powder charge... launch it was 1250 or so. Should reach the low end of the 12-18" range. As an apartment dweller, that's about what I'd want. The 20-pellet 20-gauge #3 load would also be a good possibility.
Actually a bit surprised that 16 pellet #1 buck isn't more common... that should be goldilocks for penetration.
Number one buckshot can be tricky to find...I've got 15 shells of it in 12 gauge, and another 15 in 16 gauge...I'd like to find another 10-15 shells for the 12 gauge, but we do not buy ammo online, so it might be a while...our 00 supply is okay for the moment, and we have a little #4 buckshot...honestly, in our small house I think the 3 inch magnum turkey loads would end most problems...
@@JohnPublic-dk7zd I BT 10 rounds when buying Gun.They Took Out a Lion at 40 yards all Face. That will Work.😁😁😁
@@jimshoe402you shot a lion in the face with what load at 40 yards?
You lost me at "the smart people at the FBI" 😋😋
Good test. It would be interesting one day, if possible, to see similar tests from 20 ga, as 12 ga could be too intimidating in terms of recoil to some people.
I imagine it would be roughly the same, just less pellets per shot.
#3 buckshot (20 pellet) hits heavy. It's what I use just cause my 20 is a smaller gun and easier to use indoors. Shot all kinds of stuff with it. Plywood, a junk car door, old refrigerator, old tvs, metal folding chairs, a frozen turkey, 5 gallon jugs of water. No doubt it will knock down to toughest attackers
@@ElessarEstelSo the same , but different? 😂😂😂😂 HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
FBI smart people (lol). They dropped the 10 mm for the 40 SW.. then dropped the 40sw for a 9mm . Real smart. I believe they are pissing in the wind. Pistol round 9mm to 45 are basically the same in street results. Wound track during autopsy were marginal different. I personally like OO buck. Just for record the results of #4 field shot make serious wounds on a LEO. Face and neck were hit at 20 yard by escaped convict.
The full-power 10mm was the first choice of the FBI testing! HOWEVER, the FBI dropped the full-power 10mm due to excessive recoil for "smaller 'recoil-sensitive' agents", so they developed the 10mm 'lite' load that was duplicated by the .40S&W that actually fit into those with narrower/shorter grips suited to 'smaller hands' than .45ACP. Read into that what you will...
Now as to shotgun loads, do I choose nine .33" 59gr pellets ( 00B ) or 27 .24" 21gr (4B) pellets? Both at 1300-1350fps... Or do I choose 20 .24" 4B from a 20ga at that same velocity at 5-7yds (15-21').
My HD shotguns in both 12 and 20ga are loaded with 4B. Maximizing pellet count/kinetic energy on target/multiple wound channels/shock to perp
the slug drops a deer in its tracks from 125 yards or less ...saw a man that was shot with a slug wearing a plate at 25 feet ..devasting to say the least
…and some bad guys DO wear body armour.. Slugs are the best. The only exception would be if you live in very close proximity to your neighbours. Train, train, train just as you would for a fire/tornado,etc so your family knows the drill and reduce the chances of them being hit in a real defense situation.
@@darrinwilson3103 yep gotta train ..trump is dividing this country and his base wants another civil war ..no telling what a crazy trumper will try
I stagger my load of 5 rounds , round 1and 2 , 9 pellet 00Buckshot , 3and 4 , 21 pellet #4 buck shot and a 1 ounce slug for #5 , and a set of 6 rounds on my side saddle .
00 buck for spread and penetration is still the best balance.
Second that bs about over concern regarding over penetration. Number one priority is staying alive… that means hitting your target and making sure they don’t hit you
if you're shooting to kill, I suppose the deeper penetration is better - but lets be real anybody shot with the #4 is also going to be stopped in their tracks on impact. might have a slightly better chance surviving with emergency medical help but I wouldn't count on it...
I don't deny that. Realistically, even birdshot would most likely be enough, but in the world possible scenario of somebody being high or drunk on something and not feeling any pain, then the penetration is going to be crucial.
There is no perfect penetration depth on variable mediums. There is only under penetration, or over penetration. I'll take overpenetration....
I'm good with number 4, 11.5 is good enough in a 12ga, that's alot of lead
If it does not reach far enough, it may not stop the attack, that is FBI's point. You may discomfort the attacker, but if he is able to continue his attack, you could get seriously hurt.
@@mountainhobo yes with a single bullet, your talking like 20, number 4 is no joke
@@mountainhobo My friend, if you blow off 10 pounds of meat, penetration depth is irrelevant.
@@mblake0420 The federal 2 3/4" magnum no.4 buck i have is 34 pellets per round. That is a whole lot of hate.
You can increase that average penetration by using copper or nickel plated buckshot.
The allure of #4 buck is that it has minimal penetration through walls. If you're using it for home defense, the odds are high that there are people in other rooms you don't want to hit. If I'm not worried about over penetration, I'll just pick up my. 357 sig, which is faster, more mobile and has more capacity.
No. 4 buckshot is just a little light on the penetration especially as range increases. I've done a considerable amount of testing in 2 3/4'' , 3'' and 3 1/2'' loads with magnum, magnum buffer added, copper plated, etc. No.4 buckshot and found that it lacks enough mass to reliably break small bones and or defeat multiple layers of fabric and still penetrate to 12-18''. It often will underpenetrate. It's not that it wont work, especially at close home invasion ranges, it's just that its not entirely reliable in reaching the 12-18'' of penetration when engaging targets with clothing and also especially low penetration when encountering small bones
@@jerryp9375 Absolutely. Given the choice I'll stay with 00 or better yet 000 Buck but #4 is no joke. Yeah, especially a 12 GA Breneke slug-incredible penetration compare to a foster type slug
I agree.
Breneke slugs are far better penetrating slugs than Foster type slugs. This makes them a far better choice when barriers are encountered such as automobile doors, walls (especially the old plaster walls), wood, etc
@@frankbrowning328 I recently saw a video on the Breneke Sabot slug compared to a foster both in 12ga. Same lay up with two clear gel blocks back to back. The foster unraveled to become a 2,1/2” long piece of lead where as the Breneke did not deform one bit. It also penetrated much further. If I were up against vehicles or other hard targets, that is what I would like to be shooting.
@@lowandslow3939 I agree. That has been my experience too. The Foster slug is fine as a man stopper but it really (Like you said) unravels and this makes for far less penetration.
@@frankbrowning328 Here is the link to that comparison. ruclips.net/video/Y5P5wI9vdNQ/видео.html
Number three or bigger will get sufficient penetration up to 25 yds,4 is the smallest one should consider.Gel means little ,a bb that will only raise a welt on a human will penetrate three inches in gel.Buckshot has proven to be nearly as good as a rifle in situations, slugs may be better but little data on them.
Which is why 3" is the validation standard for FBI gel with a .177 bb. However, they also make it clear that any round that penetrates 12-18" in gel, will penetrate deep enough in a body to hit and destroy vital organs.
@@TheKalkara131 and your gel was not properly calibrated to 3 inches, was it?
No wonder a relatively small number of Wells Fargo stages were robbed back in the day. Nobody in their right mind would risk a load of 12 or 10 gauge 00 buck let alone both barrels! With primitive 19th century medicine and a day on horseback from the nearest doctor a heavy shotgun load was 'over and out' !
There’s also a big difference between 9 pellets in 00 VS. 27 pallets in #4
This is three times more pellets in #4 buckshot!
Yeah and the 00 buckshot are three times bigger than the #4. So you do the math. If the 00 Bs pellets are three times bigger than the #4, which are 27 pellets. 3 #4 Bs roughly equals ONE 00 Bs.
3x9 is 27 last time I checked. Roughly the same amount of lead. The difference is the spread pattern.
The number of pellets isn't a huge mindblower if the pellets are smaller.
@@wadewilson8011 00B shot is .33", 4B is .24". Three times bigger? Nope!
OK. lets look at pellet weight -- 00B is 59gr, 4B is 21gr So yes, about the same weight-on-target.
BUT 'Home-invasion perps' bleed more per sq in with more/multiple wound channels!
Thank you brother...common loads for the common man. By the way, the standard FBI load for 12 gage during the Miami Vice 1980's: Remington 2-3/4 "00" buck.
Although the agent used the shotgun, he only hit the perp with 1 pellet - on the bad guy's foot. I don't understand how all of those shots (5-6 of buckshot?) failed to hit the bad guy.
#00 Buck for home defense... #4 Buck for drone defense
Just wanted to let you know my thoughts on this...the 18 , 19 inches is without any clothes, but with the FBI 3 or 4 layers of clothing 🤔 might be just right ✅ 😉
The FBI barrier test has both stages, one bare gel and one with 4 layers of clothing
With some denim on the front of that block I bet you would see 16-18" penetration with the 00 buck. The slug and rifle rounds would be awful risky for home defense as they will over penetrate multiple walls and continue on. ITs much better to stick with #4 buck for home defense imho. Its a devastating blast and multiple shots is beyond deadly at home defense ranges. Check out Paul Harrel's "Why shotguns don't suck for home defense" video. It shows how bad a .223 Ar bullet and 00 9 shot buck can overpenetrate multiple walls and still explode 2 litre soda jugs past the outside wall.
Love your video and your opinions 🤙🏾
The 12-16" standard on Gel was set for pistol rounds.
Still relatively applicable to shotgun shells, as theyre in the same velocity range (rifle rounds are a much different matter) but being short on penetration from a shotgun shell isn't a bad thing.
It means every ounce of energy that shell puts into a target, stays in that target.
While I prefer 00 Buck for a defensive situation, #4 buck shouldn't be counted out. It still dumps a ton of energy, has a slightly larger pattern than 00 buck, and generally won't penetrate external walls in a home.
I saw video earlier today which demonstrated the power of 12 gauge #4 buckshot. I bought a box of 25 shells few hours later. The shell is powerful.
Also, we must not forget that the perp will have some form of clothing covering the vital area! That little extra penetration will be used up in that.
The gel in this video is uncalibrated garbage. That's evidenced by the brenneke penetrating so little, that slug will penetrate around 30" in real 10% gel. And #4 buck will penetrate consistently past 12". The results in this video are invalid.
Shotgun loads make for a variety of conditions. I guess, if you had an assailant in a home invasion scenario very close to someone in your family, or even holding them as a "shield" any shot might be off the table unless you were close enough to make a head shot. A slug may have an advantage because it is ine projectile. In any event, if you miss your target, these loads are going through walls.
No.4 is my preferred load for home defense. I’d like to think it won’t over penetrate walls/floor/ceiling, and still be able to dispatch any sort of two-legged game.
No. 4 will have NO problem destroying an intruder. And it's not going to be just one shot anyway, most people will unload the thing into the bad guy in order to stop him asap! I saw a news story years ago where a homeowner killed a home invader with a .410 shotgun loaded with No.6. So yeah, No. 4 in a 12ga. will definitely do the job.
I prefer #4 as well. Got lots of kids/pets in the house. My 12 GA is semi-auto, so if the first doesn't get'em, by the time I get to the 9th, the intruder will either be running away or not running at all.
@@bkilpatr100 Honestly don't need to worry about #4 not being enough, it's going to be plenty. I have personally seen (and I really wish I didn't) autopsy photos of someone hit with nothing a single shell of birdshot. Now allot of internet forum warriors will tell you birdshot is totally inadequate for home defense, that it will penetrate 2 inches or less or even bounce off. Well I can tell you that at 20 feet and under it will leave a softball size hole of mangled mess about 6 inches deep. Instant fatality, and that's just birdshot.. People don't consider that in a home defense situation you are likely going to be at very close range and what that close range does to pattern and power.
@@-Zevin-
That’s not true. Birdshot is made for small birds. In order to kill with it, you’d have to fire about 5 or 6 rounds of it to someone’s chest cavity.
@@videogazer801 You are objectively factually 100% wrong. What is the spread of birdshot 10-15 feet away? very very little, so you are talking about 1oz of lead in a compressed ball coming out of a 12gauge, at close range this is 100% fatal. Again go look at autopsy photos if you want to lose your lunch.
It's very Ironic though that you comment with "that's not true" when your comment is completely provably untrue. "You have to fire 5-6 shots into someone's chest" to be effective? You literally just made that up, complete nonsense. Birdshot is made for birds so that magically makes it not dangerous? The entire point of birdshot is to spread out and increase hit probability at distance on relatively small fragile animals, *at distance* When you are hunting birds you are shooting 15-30yards away with a large spread. The greater the distance the larger the pattern, the closer the distance the smaller the pattern. When you shoot a person 10-20 feet away it's a entirely different thing.
Now if you said birdshot was ineffective on humans at 15+ yards (45+ feet) I would agree with you, buck shot is far far more effective out to 50 or so yards, and slugs out past 100 yards, distance is the point, It's basic Physics.. the most important physical principals here are concentrated mass and inertia, for example birdshot bbs are very small, in diameter and most importantly in mass, so they have little inertia , which means their energy dissipates quickly; the closer you are the more energy the projectiles will have, and the closer the bbs themselves are the more energy will be transferred to a small area. Inertia is the same reason higher grain rifle bullets hit harder out at longer distances, like when you compare 5.56 to 7.62x51, the .30cal 7.62 bullets have nearly double or more than double the mass of a 5.56 round, this equals more inertia (when accounting for similar projectile velocities and BC) , and thus slows down less quickly and hits harder out to longer ranges.
Here is a extreme example to get the point across, door breaching rounds are literally metal powder. Not even bbs just powder, yet it can blow your arm off at point blank, and is harmless 50 feet away. Birdshot is like this too, but still effective for longer than breeching rounds , a real bad choice at any moderate range, but still 100% lethal close in, for example across a room indoors..
27 pellets of #4 buck has a combined diameter of 6.48 inches.
9 pellets of 00 has a combined diameter of 2.97 inches.
There's a video by a channel called Brobee (I think) where his kid took a whitetail deer at maybe 25~30 yards with 20 pellet #4 buck from a 20 gauge which has a lower velocity than 27 pellet 12 gauge, when gutting the deer he found that many pellets passed through both lungs, reached the heart, went through the liver and shattered a bunch of ribs.
Does anyone really believe 7 more pellets going 200fps faster won't drop a man at less than 10 yards??? Massively more tissue destruction with a good bit of reduced penetration through people, walls and obstructions like doors, dressers, TVs, closets full of clothes etc.
#4 is safer yet more effective than 00.
Nobody seems to understand the FBI gel tests. The FBI went with 12 to 18" because many police shoots involve going through a car window or door and so they wanted excess penetration. That is not a factor for civilian self-defense. Rarely would shooting through such a barrier be a justified self-defense shooting. The human heart and lungs are two inches under the surface of the skin and the average human torso is under 9 inches from chest to spine. I'm not suggesting that all you need is two inches of penetration since you have ribs or sternum to penetrate, but you certainly don't need 18 inches unless you plan on killing whatever is behind the assailant as well.
Also to be considered is that 00-Buck and Foster slugs are usually more readily available and affordable than #4 Buck.
And both over penetrate badly.
The gel in this video is uncalibrated garbage. That's evidenced by the brenneke penetrating so little, that slug will penetrate around 30" in real 10% gel. And #4 buck will penetrate consistently past 12". The results in this video are invalid.
@@ryantogo8359 I disagree, penetration is what you want.
Slugs are also pure lead and almost hollow, so they deform a LOT when they hit anything harder than a stiff breeze. They will definitely overpenetrate a human target but it won't go very far afterward
Hopefully you're aware that those "cops" are also civians, unless they are MP's.
Tired of these old and obvious videos.
Let me save everyone some time. In order, worst to least:
Slug
00 Buckshot
#4 buckshot
I don't think you said how many pellets or velocity was in your Rio #4 buck load. What do you think about Rio royal #4 27 pellet @1300 fps? And im running the same gem you used in this video.
In lindia buck shot is banned. Only choice is to depend on bird shots with lower no as no 2 no 1 or slugs. And lastly it depends on what is available imidiatly on such threats.
The shotgun is my preferred weapon, and I will always reach for it first. I just like it best. I use a broad array of shotguns in various gauges, including two legally manufactured NFA Short Barrel Shotguns in 12 and 16 Gauge made from Stevens 311s. I favor the 16 Gauge over all others for a variety of reasons, and I will endure almost any effort or discomfort required to have some kind of shotgun with me at all times. Usually that's the Stevens Model 311 16 Gauge SBS with 7 1/2" barrels. I use a modified Bianchi X2100 shoulder rig to carry it. It's surprisingly manageable and comfortable to do, and it can be used just like a conventional handgun. Almost... 😏 But it surely does wear on you, and you need to take a break now and then because of it's considerable heft. Which is almost 4 1/2 pounds loaded. Not counting the weight of all the ammunition. 😓 If I can't manage that because it's just too hot to dress for concealing such a large, heavy and weird
piece of ordnance, I've still got my little Bond Arms Grizzly derringer. Which is essentially a pocket size .410 shotgun. 😛 Results with Winchester OOO Buck loads are fairly impressive. 😀 I'm sure there are many who would question my strange and arduous choices in firepower, but I'm having fun. So there! 😁
Most important thing is that you actually carry something. The old saying of a 22lr on your hip is better than a 9mm in your nightstand is very accurate. Even if it's something most internet experts say isn't effective, if it's something you'll actually carry every day, it's effective. Shot placement trumps caliber either way.
Love my 311s
8 pellet hornady 00 buck shot is good bc it has a tighter pattern for some reason than the 9 pellet buck shot. 🤷♂️
Practically anything from a shotgun at in-home distances is extremely effective and lethal.
Great stuff here. How are you liking that Panzer 12ga M4 Clone? Is it reliable with different loads? 🤠
Not fully. I've had lots of issues with it actually. The only loads I've found that run semi reliably are higher powered stuff, 00 buck and slugs. I was under the impression that the ARGO system, which the panzer clones, can run any load. This one doesn't.
I like #6… big enough to do real damage after some spread, small enough to not pass through a bunch of walls.
What happens if the fight is outside and the bad guy is coming from a distance shooting a rifle at u is birdshot gonna doit? Get a real shot brother your gonna screw yourself up
Maybe with a extra full turkey choke, definitely not with a cylinder bore.
@@Darthdoodoo my shotguns are indoor/house options only. I have other outdoor semi-auto options for outdoors, including AR10’s.
#4 buckshot hit a new gel block while #00 buckshot hit a porous & perforated gel block. It may have small difference if test media is same condition.
I'm sure it does. Actual, FBI gel tests use a fresh block every time. Unfortunately, I don't have their budget
Any one of those would get the job done in a home defense shooting I have number 4 buckshot in my home defense shotgun and wouldn't think for a minute that if I had to use it to defend my family I know for a fact the intruder Would be toast
Superb video... I would choose the 00 buckshot for home defense at 7 Yards
It would drop the attacker no problem at all.
At only 21 feet, or 7 yards, 00 buckshot is absolutely devastating. I've tested mine at that distance and the spread is only about 3", meaning you're going to be blasting a gigantic hole in the bad guy, and the pellets will literally shred him internally. No chance of surviving that, no way. I've seen photos of what 00 buck does to a human body center of mass at close range.. Basically leaves a huge, gaping hole all the way through. Perfect home defense weapon and load!
#4 for Home defense
00 for outside the house
3" slugs for bear, demons and aliens.
I'll quote Bill Burr " It's Got a good spread on it "
I think the rock salt will be more fan ! [ sadistically speaking].
Good tests, but this is a shotgun with Buckshot. FBI standardthe FBI Protocol kinda goes out the window with that much damage IMHO.
The FBI Protocol of 12" minimum is basically for handguns and rifles determining the effectiveness of single projectiles.
Again this is my opinion as I couldn't find anything useful on Google to say otherwise.
I do know that they use that same standard for all of their weapons. FBI Ballistics Lab members have publicly stated so. I'm assuming that encompasses shotguns as well.
I'd rather have OVER than UNDER. In any case.
Neither 4B or 00B is ideal. #1 and #2B (I prefer #2B) are perfect for home defense. Enough penetration to get the job done but not too much either. There are a few more pellets than 00B. Around 12 for #1 and 16 for #2 for light recoil loads versus 8 for 00. #4B is a little light in the penetration department. By my experience, nickel plated #4Bs will average 10-11" into gel with 4 layers of denim. Nickel plated buck penetrates deeper than copper plated or non plated and its still a little light. These are with impact velocities of 1150-1175 fps and muzzle velocity of 1200fps for all loads. There are no 12ga #2B available as far as I've ever seen and only heavy loads for 12ga #1B so you have to load them yourself. But if you use the right components, you can have excellent performing home defense ammo that patterns tight and has light recoil. Like a target load. Good stuff!
I'd love to hear your recipe for these loads! Am just getting into reloading. Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas! I'm always looking for a better performer but right now my best performer is: a new, primed Fiocchi hull, 22.7 grs of Super Handicap powder, a 12 ga. .070" nitro card on top of powder (so powder will not get past the wad's gas seal), a ballistic products LBC wad split 4 ways, a ballistic products 1/8" 20 ga. felt wad on the bottom of the shot cup (for extra cushion), 15 pellets of nickel plated #2 buck, 17 grains of ballistic products original buffer, a tiny amount of clear nail polish to seal the buffer in. All this is available from Ballistic Products. This load patterns beautifully but I have not chronographed it yet. It should be relatively close to 1200 fps out of an 18.5" barrel.
Look at that gel hang time the 00 buck and slug did🤣🤣🤣🤣
11 inches is shy of what your looking for? I agree with a single shot of 9mm lol😂 it’s a whole like 40 bullets?? Idk a shit ton lol the 11 inches is fine.
Yes, realistically that's true. The standard I use is 12-18" inches, and while yes it's only by one inch, but it is technically short
Good video
I prefer to make more holes.
Excellent idea placing the tape measure next to the gel block. +1 like and a sub
Yes but you can do a mag dump of 2 or 3 extra shots
Thank you. Good demo & data & description of potential damage. Appreciate this.
Once you shoot the gel, especially with a shotgun, it's potential accuracy is diminished so by the third shot it's kind of pointless!
I use .00 buck for my home defense!
Because of my Urban setting, I have #4 Buck ready for home defence. This is due to other videos I have seen from guys like Paul Harrell showing excessive penetration in your typical suburban home. For me, Buck and Slugs are for protection and hunting in rural and back country areas. (And the Zombie Apocalypse!)
When I was working in the Arctic I had 00 Buck and Slugs for protection from Polar Bears and Wolverines.
At home-defense range, 200 - #7 buckshot causes total tissue devastation up to 6-inches deep and a hole up to 8-inches wide. Blood pressure would crash almost immediately with a 20-gauge or 12-gauge bird shot impact. Honestly...getting hit with a shotgun loaded with feathers would probably be devastating.
Years ago, I watched what a 20-gauge rifled slug did to a bobcat... i didn't realize an animal could run off with it's gut package dragging on the ground behind it. I don't think the .61 cal slug ever slowed down going through that poor kitty.
All this said, I'm confident that bird shot would be sufficient to deter any further aggression in most situations.
This was a great comparison. Thank you! Earned a new sub’. 👊🏼
I'm sure if it was your loved one behind the target you'd be worried about over penatration. BTW there's be several instances semi recently in Chicago where kids have been shot and some killed from bullets coming thru their homes walls. A 2 year old was in bed got shot in the head and killed by a stray bullets. Granted the natives if South and westsides of Chicago are terrible shots and most shoot 1 handed and some sideways one handed like idiots. Thank God those type font know how to actually shoot accurately or the murder rate would be much higher. I just know Chicago bc that's where my family from and I spend a lot of time there but I'm positive that's not the only place bullets go thru houses and hit unintended targets 🤔
With an AR-410 2 1/2" is the only choice and High Brass cycles the best so 00 to #6 works good! No need for slugs! Too many pistol rounds are better! FKJB!
The lack of penetration is a plus imo. 1 projectile with low penetration is no bueno, but when there's 2 dozen projectiles under penetrating it becomes a non issue. Mathematically there is roughly 250 inches of penetration with #4 buck. 00B is the standard for military solely for the fact of better barrier penetration. #4B is an outstanding round for home defense and deer hunting with dogs or on a drive.
If you're worried about 4 buck being too little and 00 buck being too much, remember, there's 0 buck and 1, 2, and 3 buck that exists as well....
I have no close neighbors, so collateral damage is not a salient concern. 1st round is 3" #000 followed by 7 rds. of #00 with 12 in each one. S/B adequate.
For home defense I have found that i have very good results with 2-3/4 #1 buck , Very nice pattern... And more pellets.
I don’t see much of a point of a 12 inch minimum on shotgun spread. The 12 inch thing was in case the bullet hits somewhere like an arm or dense material, where with 12 or 21 pellets from a shotgun, a good amount of the pellets will hit soft tissue regardless. #4 at 11 inch depth seems like a safe bet to not worry too much about pass through, and that’s a lot of holes.
Stopped watching when he said I don’t recommend shotguns for home defense.
I've done a video on why I recommend a rifle
I use 2 Buckshot and 00 Buckshot
One and done for hunting is humane but for BAD GUYS I want EXTRA satisFACTION!😊 FKJB!
Yes, less penetration than double 0 independently of the gel or body but do you prefer 27 different wounds channels or just 9 to get the maximum effectiveness? It sounds ridiculous but I guess if vital organs and arteries could speak they would chose #00 buckshot to get more possibilities of not been pierced.
I'll never understand why some people intentionally use birdshot when there are such better options available. I mean, if birdshot is all you have, fine. But to use it on purpose, when you have a choice? I've seen birdshot from a turkey choke fail to stop ground squirrels at inside-house distances. My defensive shotgun is always loaded with Fed or Hornady 8 pellet 00 buck with a couple 1 oz rifled slugs on the Sidesaddle. You do you, boo, but I roll with buckshot and leave birdshot for the birds.
Bird nr.1 works. Social work at home will generally be less than 20ft.
(edit - many countries have the big ones on the "no-no list" - hold on to your 1st and 2nd A)
@ulflyng4072 Of course, it works within narrow parameters. Anything coming out the end of a muzzle is probably pretty effective at across the room distance. The question is why you would use ammunition that is only effective at baseball bat distance. If you are so concerned about over penetration that you feel compelled to use ammunition only effective within a few feet, it seems maybe a gun isn't the right tool for you. Maybe a small camp axe, baseball bat, or machete would be more appropriate.
Responsible adults realize there is a difference between possible and prudent, between can and should. You can defend yourself with a gun, but should you? If you are so surrounded that you can't clear a backstop, no. You shouldn't. Compromising the effectiveness of your ammunition is a poor substitute for safe and responsible gun handling. Birdshot is still lethal force, and you are still morally and almost certainly legally obligated not to direct lethal force towards an uncleared backstop.
@@MTMILITIAMAN7.62 Who would use bird shot nr.1...?? Someone who lives in a country where those are the biggest legal shot. That was my point
@ulflyng4072 Fair enough. I already conceded that it is better than nothing if it is all you have access to.
Thank you fot doing the testing but not sure how accurate it is shooting the same block with 00 after already having paths from 4
A regular 1 oz 1600 fps hollowpoint foster slugs would do a lot more damage while penetrating less.
You are too close to the block. If the shot has not had time to spread, it will act like a slug with buckshot following the pathway of the shot in front of it for a few inches
When I was a deputy sheriff we carried #4 buck shot to increase the probability of hits. I shot a fleeing felon in the legs and broke both of them. That was after passing through a privacy fence.
I use Hornady critical duty, double 00 buck in my shotgun for home defense
Sheesh...after watching a bunch of 9mm gel tests, that slug is INSANE
Wish you did #1 too
I reckon it just depends. Do you wanna shoot someone with 27 .25ACP's, 8 .38 specials, or 1 .454 Casull ?
It all depends on where you are planning to use it. If you are in an apartment building....overpenetration is definitely something that needs to be considered. Nobody wants to defend themselves only to find out the neighbors bedroom was in your shot path. If you are defending your farmhouse...sure overpenetration is no big deal. In the average home, there really isnt going to be a line of sight shot further than 10-15 yards....and #4 buckshot at 10 yards is pretty devastating to a perpetrator.
What has 9 balls and f's up bad guys? 00buck.
@@johnolsen7073 I was gonna say a good guy with a condition
Out of every gun you could own, shotgun is hands down the ultimate home defense.
Ironically most people using #4 buckshot would decry using a Ruger 10/22 for self defense when both a .22LR and #4 buckshot are about the same size. A Ruger 10/22 can have a 25 round magazine that can be mag dumped fast.
You sound knowledgeable, what's the difference between Rio #4 buck shot 21 pellet verses 27 pellet, besides count of course ?
Would recoil be noticeable less with 21 or just negligible ?
Another way to ask is if you could only buy a case of one or the other which would you chose and why ?
I appreciate your time spent in responding, thanks n' God bless brother
Oh don't go thinking I'm an expert haha, I'm not. I've read some reports and think about it a bit, but I have no real world experience. As for the difference, I honestly don't think there would be much. 21 count would have slightly bigger pellets I'd assume, hence they have a bit less, but the size difference would be pretty small. I can't imagine there's much of any recoil difference either