What, it's true. 12-18 inches in gel means the bullet stops inside the person in reality, so 3 inches in gel is barely past the skin. He said a bb gets 3 inches in gel. Those little fragments are not going to reach vitals. Obviously the round will still kill you, but I don't think it's as effective as other options.
@@geometerfpv2804 The issue is that this rounds mode of killing is radically different from most handgun rounds because it acts like a rifle round due to the high velocity and copper hollow point construction. Its more akin to fragmenting M193 (I don't even need to explain how lethal that round is) thus the FBI standard doesn't tell the full story as its optimized for "normal" handgun rounds. The round didn't reach 12 inches due to being under powered but rather because it dumped all its energy via an insane amount of hydrostatic shock. For reference this round has penetrated lvl 3A vests (results vary with brand but you get the point) which is flat out impressive. If you aren't convinced of its performance even Paul Harrel was shocked by its lethality and his only concern was POI shift between it and your training ammo.
@@geometerfpv2804 lol @ "3 inches in gel is barely past the skin". Because skin is now made of kevlar. And hold a ruler up to the chest and see where 3-5" would put it? The sheared off petals don't make a little line slice like we see in gel...rather, they open a gaping hole that is 2.5-4" wide and 5" deep...plus the base going in a foot.
The FBI ballistics standard was developed back in 1986, it’s widely used, it’s easy, but it’s definitely not an “end all be all” for real world bullet lethality. Think of the type bullet technology back then when those standards were developed. Paul Harrell and his “meat targets” are legendary and are an amazingly great simulation of a human body. (4 t-shirts, leather jacket, chicken breast pectoral muscles, pork ribs rib age, sack of oranges for lung tissue, pork ribs ribcage, 4 layers t-shirts, then bullet backstop) This 9mm ammo absolutely vaporized the lungs/oranges and penetrated bones, meat, and exited. The damage was astounding…and it shows that FBI protocol isn’t the only way to prove lethality.
@@southernlonghorn4507 I make the pretty much exact same argument, particularly about Paul's video...although I'm sure it was grapefruit in that one, not oranges. And his word was "Annihilated" not vaporize. But yes. But I go much, much further...and argue the 12 - 18" is why we see assailants, one after another, being able to absorb multiple shots - without even a hiccup in their aims. Some can take a dozen shots and still able to provoke 2 more shots. Just saw a woman do that in a PoliceActivity video. Gabe Tauscher got hit 15 times with .45 acp...and still won the battle. So while tech has advanced - I believe the FBI fudd has caused it to be advanced in the wrong direction...& designed to go some ideal of 14-16" or that 12" minimum - - - at the expense of doing damage in the 3-9" region. Civil Defense & Overwatch and some other calibers do exactly that. I had suspected but needed to see for myself so I put a few rounds into pork shoulders. The way fast & fracturing rounds create damage is just what the FBI requirement is completely missing. When it comes to maximizing the potential of surface-area & energy...a projectile staying together, and all of its mass is moving along the same wound path...nah, pass. Spread it out. 16" of penetration? Maybe in rare instances...but the disc in the Overwatch goes pretty far. If a P.D. would simply give it a try...and just see if attackers nerve-endings don't quickly tell them - "oh hey - that chunk there is now missing...hmmm - I should stop?" I doubt anytime soon, though, that they'd do what I do, and have 3 or 4 Liberty rounds 1st in magazine, followed by staggering of G9, HST and more Liberty. Cops have pretty different scenarios than a personal-defender...but I'd think they sure would prefer to see some more rapid stops. Either that...or start aiming "higher"?
@@ACommenterOnRUclips Agreed, I am on our church security team and over penetration is a huge serious concern. Imagine needing to shoot someone in a super packed crowded room and your bullet zips through its intended target. That isn’t gonna happen with this round.
@@southernlonghorn4507 i think i have noticed that in the recent months that people have changed from wound channel (min penetration) to max penetration ... Im like, since when did the self defense story change from min penetration and max wound channel to max penetration and no wound channel ??? This is why we use HPJ to avoid penetration and to create that immediate wound channel ...
Exactly….likely hasn’t shot enough critters to know what kills things and seeing what this bullet does….WOW, this is deadly. The FBI ballistics standard was developed back in 1986, it’s widely used, it’s easy, but it’s definitely not an “end all be all” for real world bullet lethality. Think of the type bullet technology back then when those standards were developed. Paul Harrell and his “meat targets” are legendary and are an amazingly great simulation of a human body. (4 t-shirts, leather jacket, chicken breast pectoral muscles, pork ribs rib age, sack of oranges for lung tissue, pork ribs ribcage, 4 layers t-shirts, then bullet backstop) This 9mm ammo absolutely vaporized the lungs/oranges and penetrated bones, meat, and exited. The damage was astounding…and it shows that FBI protocol isn’t the only way to prove lethality.
I don't know. It seems to me like that might be a viable option. The damage is going to be shallow, but it fairly catastrophic. Between the kinetic effect of that energy dump and the massive tissue damage and bleeding from the craters, I can imagine these being effective. Not a viable or humane hunting option, but it might be effective for self defense.
I don't understand your Logic at all! Is the depth of your Torso 10"? IMO this Bullet is a Killer Round, especially with the way it Fragmented and what do you think happens inside a human body with all those Fragments going in many directions! Also, we have to think about more than one bullet entering a Torso, not just a single round! Many times it's not the solid bullet causing the most damage but all these Fragments are Deadly! Just ask any Doctor who is experienced with Gun Shot Victims and Do The Research! You have proved that this is a Killer Round and it will do the job without Over Penetration! Thank You!
It isn't my logic, it's the logic of Dr. Martin Fackler and the guys at the FBI Ballistics Lab. They decided that a bullet needs to penetrate 12-18" in ballistics gel in order to penetrate deep enough in a human body to hit and destroy vital organs. Penetration in gel isn't the same as penetration in a human body, they aren't 1:1.
@@TheKalkara131 Broo. That's the fbi my guy. They're going up against some super dangerous people. We civilians often times have shoot outs 3-5 maybe 10ft away, and those rounds would do so much damage to a person, especially if it hits a neck, heart, chest, or even liver. In reality are we trying to destroy people?? there's this over kill energy in the gun community lol. Ppl have died from legs shots, thighs shots and to kill with a modern firearms is easy, cuz if they don't die, they're paralyzed or maimed, I believe in modest rounds even though i carry this specific ammo lol. if I feel really threatened 108gr Underwood. And that's over kill tbh.
@@TheKalkara131 gonna piggy back, Ballistics gel is calibrated to the density of the human body to include bone. I would honestly be more interested in carcass testing. Pop a boar normal, then put one round in the Ribs and one in the stomach and see what kind of damage is done. Gel testing is visually neat but meat target with the new and improved bullet stop gets relatable results.
If you don’t get a full frontal shot won’t matter it gonna blow limbs apart more than likely or they’ll be completely useless after being hit by this round
bro you shot the gun 1x and came up with a conclusion, how does that make sense? not every bullet expands when it hits soft tissue. Some just dont, but another round may do exactly what it's supposed to. And personally I would use a longer barrel. These things are nasty. I carry them daily in my PDP comp forsure!
The fact that it goes through body armor is why I want it because they are very common now. These kids are out here actually wearing jackets. Active shooters usually wear BP Vests too.
The fact that the bullet stopped in the first block means the block absorbed (50x2040x2040)/450436 = 462 ft-lbs of energy. If it had penetrated the block then it would have absorbed less energy. The bullet did exactly what it's designed to do - fragment and deliver all its energy into the target (the first block in this case). For comparison a more common 9mm load like a 115 grain/1200 fps bullet has (115x1200x1200)/450436 = 368 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. So this 50 grain bullet has almost 100 ft-lbs more energy. So if you double bullet weight you double energy, but if you double bullet velocity you quadruple energy! "Stopping power" is more than just how wide and deep the wound channels are - it also involves how much hydrostatic shock the bullet creates by transferring its energy into the target. A more realistic test of the effectiveness of these bullets would be on how they behave on live animals like deer and hogs. Some of your followers who hunt or work on farms may have experience with this. Thanks!
Well explanation! And that's exactly the method to the Liberty design. Simply can't be compared to other self defense rounds on the market. In a league of its own
Except his velocity was 2175 fps, not the 2040 shown on the box and in your calculation...which means 525 ft#. So, over 150 ft# higher than the 368 you used to compare it with. It's higher energy than much of the 10mm I've chrono'd.
2:42 18 inches is the max penetration for federal HP standards (iirc) Its designed to stop in humans and soft stuff like drywall to help keep other casualties to a minimum. Dumping it's energy while expanding it's mass to take down the target. Personally I think this is an awesome round for CIVIL DEFENSE. 10 inches is really perfect and that expansion is perfect too.
The FBI came up with the 12-18" standard because the best and fastest way that you, as the shooter, can make a threat stop being a threat is to cause massive, rapid blood loss by having a load penetrate deep enough to both hit and destroy vital organs. You can't rely upon energy transfer to stop a threat. You can't rely on merely being shot at or the presence of a firearm to stop a threat. Might they? Sure, but it's beyond your control. You don't know what your attackers frame of mind is, what they may be on, etc. Having a load that will go deep enough to hit and destroy vital organs, in the wide variety of situations and angles that a real world gun fight will be in, is why they came up with the 12-18" standard.
It doesn't have to penetrate deep if it obliterates everything it penetrates. Watch some of the videos of it's use in tissue also against level III balistic vest and you will be impressed.
Are usually don’t comment, but I will say that this guy needs to reevaluate his testing parameters. This is a devastating round. So much power pierce through level three body and still legal parts to cause devastating internal damage. I’m pretty sure this is one of the better self defense arounds.
It's fast, yes, but those fragments are very shallow. Gel is not a 1-to-1 model for humans, it is much less dense. 3 inch depth is barely past the skin, so those fragments are not going to make it to vitals. They'll cause bleeding, but that's not gonna instantly stop a threat.
@@geometerfpv2804 Brother it passes through a lvl 3a vest, it doesn't have an issue with penetration. This round is so radically different from a tradition handgun round that the FBI standard is useless. Go watch the Paul Harrel (gun Gordon Ramsey) video on this ammo even he was shocked with the performance with his only concern being POI shift from training ammo
No doubt…it takes BIG things to impress Paul Harrell but this ammo absolutely liquefied the insides of that target and still passed through. Ain’t anyone surviving a chest shot with one of these.
@@geometerfpv2804 It's not less dense - - -according to Fackler, gel is exactly calibrated to mimic the density of tissue (muscle) and is a 1-to-1. That's the organic stuff, though. Not this synthetic rubber we see being used here. So, it's indeed going to reach vitals. The 10% gel leaves a more realistic looking wound that people say "temporary stretch doesn't matter"...but it does. That gel looks just like it does in meat. The clear gel is more stingy with expansion, which then results in a bit more penetration if a round is affected in that way. Civil Defense, isn't. It flies apart just the same and leaves a 4" wide by 5" inch hole up through about 6". Put a ruler up to the sternum and see where 6" is going to put it.
I still want to try these simply because of the weight per mag versus carrying a loaded mag with 124 grain HP or even 115, it is a few oz difference I've seen a video on it, so if it's less weighing down my belt then it could be beneficial, And I live in apartment too! But the price tag on these things are definitely high that's for sure.
I've been carrying these Liberty civil defense 50 grain plus p in my carry gun for 7 years takes so much weight off of the gun it's amazing less weight on your belt or in your pocket Plus it dumps all the energy into the first object it hits very little chance of collateral damage or over-penetration they're awesome rounds
I carry these and the recoil is bizarre! It's around 1/3 the felt recoil of a 115gr fmj. It's pretty crazy how little felt recoil it has. It's cycled in all my 9mm pistols and pcc. As a plus when loaded into a magazine they're considerably lighter (almost feels like am empty mag) so it's also less weight on your belt/ in your pocket. I really think these are about the best 9mm defensive loads out there. (these and underwood's 90gr +p+ extreme defenders, they're excellent as well).
With an energy dump of close to 450 foot pounds of energy, that is pretty close to a 55gr .223 at 300 meters. Having seen people take multiple rounds of 62 gr. 5.56, I will take the LCD as a carry option any day.
Those fragments basically turn your insides to mush mountain lion coyotes and hogs I shot chest and stomach cavities where destroyed this is the best 9mm round ever in my opinion the amount of shear destruction it causes in one single target is unmatched even the rip ammo doesn’t compare run this same test on a ballistic dummy with fake organs I’m sure you will change your opinion on this round and for good measure put a leather vest on it
Even though slower, it's not going to be that slower enough to see any real difference with the Civil Defense. Their Overwatch line is what someone should seek if they want a bit deeper penetration and slightly less wide of a gaping hole that might be a bit deeper.
I disagree vehemently with your conclusion here; new to the channel and I'm not saying anything more than what I write, but here we go. As a general rule, in a perfect world, you should ALWAYS want your round to stop in the target, as this means all the potential energy of the round is dumped into said target and it prevents overpenetration and a risk of collateral damage/injury, both of which is exactly what this loading did. Now I will address the penetration goals you have/FBI standards they look for. I understand it from a Law Enforcement perspective where they want to be able to make sure they're getting EFFECTIVE hits on target and may need to account for things like body armor, thick clothes, and in many such scenarios where deadly force is utilized they often don't have much to worry about in terms of overpenetration risks to others (I know there are exceptions). In a civilian, concealed carry sort of use though, overpenetrating a target is likely to be a MAJOR concern, especially in a public setting. The diameter of the overall wound (including the petals/fragments) should cause massive internal bleeding and would likely render the person incapacitated fairly quickly from the sheer overpressure of the circulatory system alone, though the tracks increasing blood loss ought to hurry the process along even if it doesn't. Either way not a bad video but I disagree with your conclusions is all. Have a good one
You should always want your round to stop in your target, sure. But you also need a round that will penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs, in situations and angles other than a perfect, nobody moving, frontal shot like you get on the range. Which leads to the penetration standard. LEOs don't carry a different load just because they're out in public. By and large, I'm pretty sure they use what they're issued regardless of situation. LEOs carry ammo that matches the FBI penetration standard, despite the fact that they, not civilians, are more likely to engage threats in public. Why? Because unless you're in a mosh pit or in the middle of the crowd at a parade, there's almost always more empty space in the world than people. When I'm walking around Walmart, I'm not pushing people out of the way every other second. If a load overpenetrates, decent chance it'll be robbed of most of its energy, and there shouldn't be someone right behind them anyway (4 safety rules). However, if you're in a bad situation and you're up against a threat that isn't feeling any pain and is determined to kill you, I want a load that will go deep enough to hit and destroy vital organs. There's plenty of videos out there of people getting lit up by police and they either don't stop at all, or maybe stagger then keep right on coming. You can't use the petals to extend the diameter of the permanent wound cavity. The PWC is the wound track, the tissue physically destroyed by the passage of the bullet. The petals don't make that central wound track bigger, they just create extra ones. Yes it may be nasty wound, but given the penetration, I stand by my conclusion. Especially in a dynamic, moving situation like most real world encounters are, it may not be deep enough to hit the heart and other vital organs. Which, behind destroying the central nervous system, is the best way to make a threat not a threat.
Hey Dork, it performed just like it's supposed to. it's supposed to hit hard, fragment like hell and cause multiple ugly wound channels dump energy and not over penetrate.
it's not really multiple ugly wound channels...It's one giant ugly wound. The petals create a single gaping 2.5-4" wide hole that is ~4-5" deep (because of the velocity that this stuff is moving). Comparing their wounding potential due to penetration distance; to a BB, when doing over 2000 fps - because BB also penetrates 3" is just silly. The reason they don't penetrate further, is because of the resistance (tearing, shredding) they are doing because of their shape & surface-area...nothing like a BB.
Rifle performance and I like the round coming apart. More chances of having hot metal rubbing across an organ. A small explosion in the middle section is not a flesh wound.
I'm not worried about the round being 2" short of the standard. I believe the initial shock will be enough to stop your average thug. I like the idea of a 50g high speed bullet for the reduced recoil impulse and probably further range.
I carry these and the recoil is bizarre! It's around 1/3 the felt recoil of a 115gr fmj. It's pretty crazy how little felt recoil it has. It's cycled in all my 9mm pistols and pcc. As a plus when loaded into a magazine they're considerably lighter (almost feels like am empty mag) so it's also less weight on your belt/ in your pocket. I really think these are about the best 9mm defensive loads out there. (these and underwood's 90gr +p+ extreme defenders, they're excellent as well).
This is a great video. Very informative. Been carrying +p underwood defender. However after this video, I realized if I ever had to drop a MF with my 9 I’d love to be wearing a shirt like yours!
This round is designed to go through armor or a hard barrier. Not travel far. It's supposed to screw up it's target and not travel through it, possibly hitting something behind it. You want penetration, choose another type of round.
Its called hydrostatic shock. It will split your gut wide open and you will go down. I bet my life on it. I have thousands of these rounds. Best 9mm round available.
@@priznuruvchrist4549 i didn't assume nothing. I asked if you had thousands of rounds of HPJ ammo in your home that would cost you well into the $ Thousands at ~$1+ per round. Thousands of rounds of FMJ would cost you several hundreds of $$ ... The average person does NOT have thousands of HPJ ammo in their home let alone several hundred. I have many co-workers that have MANY guns and they may have 100 rounds of HPJ in their home while having a few thousand of FMJ .... My close co-worker is ex military and owns 36 hand guns and he only has ~300 HPJ rounds in his home ... Not saying you don't but for someone to say they have thousands of HPJ's at home is hard to believe when most if not all stack up on FMJ because its cheap and MOST if not all only carry about 100 HPJ's in their home ...
@@ACommenterOnRUclips I have no reason to lie. I understand averages, so I get your logic. A wise salesman at one point in my life taught me never to think with my wallet. I have many things. My original post wasnt meant to boast, so I apologize if I came across that way, it was meant to support liberty and their product in which I personally use and believe in and purchase often. Thats it.
Try putting a refrigerator door in front of the gel and get back to me. I’ve got some old videos on here with liberty ammo. You also need to take into account with that speed the temporary cavity will be destroyed also
Regardless of YOUR opinion, this IS a very effective round. Not only do I do testing of my own, I have been shot in the hand (accidental discharge) and it was and still is brutal.
I want more energy dumped into the target. This achieves that in spades. It also penetrates some 3a armor. The hrdostaic shock is closer to a5.56 round than a pistol round. The penetration Stat is overated.
It's supposed to dump all of its energy into its target. My only question is, what makes you think that you're a subject matter expert? Those rounds do exactly what they are supposed to do. My question is, why would you want over penetration?
Might be good enough for some bodyguards, assaulting structures with guard dogs, some missions on small boats, etc. Yes it lacks penetration but the flight time to 100m/150m must be advantageous.
This is a Fast Bullet. Has anyone done a 15, 20, 25+ yards tests with this round in Ballistic gel? If so, one commenter had it right as being a Viable Defensive Carry 9mm round, IMO. I'd just have to spend lots of $$$ to make sure it feeds 100% in my Carry Gun.
This round is designed to create hydro shock and tissue damage without collateral damage beyond the target. It’s called a “frangible round” and it performed exactly as designed. Thanks for the video though dude!
I might would be interested in sending you a few of these rounds to test, but modify them. One version would have a steel ball pressed in the hollow and the other would have a aluminum spike epoxied in the hollow point. I bet that would cause some damage and may still travel at 1900-2000fps.
@@Turbogto_guy not saying it's impossible to make such a round; just saying weight/pressure/ballance problems would prevent those rounds from reaching 1900fps. Based on 50 years of firearms experience.
I’m 5’11” 250 pounds. If you put your back against the wall how thick is your chest. Mine’s about 13 inches. So according to you, this bullet would pretty much reach my spine. So how do you think it’s not gonna hit your organs since they are in the middle
So you actually seem to know what you're talking about, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. I'm sure you know that a lot of terminal ballistics, there's long been a delineation between "low velocity" and "high velocity" projectiles, and this distinction emerges around 2000fps and up. Beyond this threshold, projectiles are able to impart enough energy into tissue as to cause permanent damage through tissue displacement, ie stretch wounding. (I'm of the opinion that this is a gross oversimplification, as there's a lot of interesting data out there demonstrating indirect wounding happens at far lower velocities in various tissues, but i digress; this is the established baseline). This round, being absolutely pissin' hot, in excess of 2100fps, to me, seems to have the potential to cause some catastrophic tissue damage upon initial impact. Particularly given its weight, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to assess this similarly to a kind of shitty .223, or comparable high-energy varmint cartridge in excess of the performance envelope of 5.7. If you compare, the fragments from these things are comparable to the lower end of performance of fragments from 5.56 in size and penetration. And there are 5.56 loads which come to a rest around 10" and are still quite effective, which I think can speak to this penetration criteria being specifically for "low velocity" type projectiles. Not to say 10" isn't a little bit underperforming (or that this ammunition is directly comparable to 5.56) but it's not quite terrible either. I've heard these rounds are quite impressive on hogs, seen them do nasty things to hogs, read some trauma reports of what fragmenting handgun ammunition can do to people; these may be on to something. The most compelling thing about them, by far, is that initial impact velocity and the way they are able to violently fragment at that near-2200fps. Their potential seems to be missed when examined with criteria established to evaluate "low-velocity" hollowpoints, especially as gel testing doesn't really do a good job representing stretch wounding. Three or four of these to the chest, or even the arms, I'd think would be quite debilitating due to the shock-wounding potential.
The FBI standards don't work on rounds like these because they act like rifle rounds . Go watch slow motion ballistics gel testing the hydrostatic shock is the same as a rifle round and this thing goes through lvl 3A. The poster got the completely wrong conclusion because the standard he is applying is giving him false notions. A slow motion camera and a lvl3A vest would have shown him that is really happening
I'm doubting the doctors, trauma surgeons and medics the FBI has worked with over the years to come up with and continue using the 12-18" penetration standard used Call Of Duty as a metric.
@@TheKalkara131 With the heart being less than 2" behind skin with all of those blood vessels I see this ammo being devastating. Watch 223 50-53 grain vmax in ballistic gel at further distances and wound channels are very similar. Fragment pieces are near the main expansion area and don't penetrate far.
@@dannyteets According to the paper I'm referencing, the major vital organs are located deep within the chest, not 2". If that was the case, how thick are the ribs that that cover and protect our vital organs? Half an inch? And then the skin, fat, and muscle?
@@TheKalkara131 I would not hesitate using this ammo in my edc if it functions flawlessly. I however would not use this for home defense. Carrying for self defense vs home defense has a different mentality for me. In my home, I am not retreating. I'm already in my safe place. They are getting an AR or shotgun. Carrying in public my goal is to get myself and family out of a situation. Period! From a legal standpoint in my state that's the best choice unfortunately. At the distances of a confrontation in self defense that is justifiable here, accuracy should not be an issue for someone that trains. Multiple shots on target with any self defense ammo should allow me to accomplish that goal.
Liked your video, disagree with your conclusion. A gel test is a means to comparatively observe performance amongst different bullets @ varying velocities. Thanks
The human heart is just beneath the sternum. That's why chest compressions work. Lungs are shallow too. People seem to think we are polar bears or something.
@@matthewd.1805 assuming the person you're shooting at is kind, and stands there allowing you a perfect, unmoving, frontal shot. And it's not some kind of adrenaline and drug fueled, highly dynamic situation. I didn't make the 12-18" standard. Trauma surgeons and ballistics experts did, and the FBI still uses it for all of their load testing to this day.
This is what happens when you apply a handgun round standard to a handgun round that is more akin to a rifle round. This round is low recoil, produces an impressive amount of hydrostatic shock, fragments reliably, and can penetrate lvl 3a vests.
I've never done the exploratory surgery myself, unlike you. But, going off the data the FBI uses, a round that penetrates 12-18" in gel will get deep enough. You do know penetration in gel isn't a 1:1 comparison to a human body, right?
It's a conundrum. I have the heavy, knock you down 9 mm rounds and I have the lighter Liberty rounds, and in a perfect world you have time to decide and grab the magazine that is appropriate for the conditions. Solid odds that you get all torso shots...knock you down rounds, increased risk that a miss may continue through a door or window...grab the lighter frag rounds.
Define damage? You explode 3” in and the flesh on the other end is going to be very displeased. I’m not understanding the RUclipsrs saying this round is garbage. If ballistics gel is not the proper medium to test then what the fuck is? This does exactly what I want and I carry it without concern
Couple things: 1. penetration in ballistics gel isn't a 1:1 comparison to penetration in a human body. 2. The penetration standard was set in place by trauma surgeons and ballistics experts with a lot of funding by the FBI a few decades ago. I'm guessing they know what they're talking about 3. That penetration depth is accounting for the fact that in most real world shooting encounters, people tend to not just stand in one place and present their center mass, unmoving and all nice like.
I live in a real world and 450 + ft lbs of energy expended is devastating. Consider any part of the average human body and 6 inches of total devastation in tissue would be catastrophic and most likely debilitating. I don’t shoot 9mm but I would use that round for self defence. I’m talking real world and not shooting thru car doors: I’m using my weapon as a last resort then clearing the area and this round does exactly as designed and IMO is quite adequate.
These are just gimmicky junk. Gel does not represent real world results. Anyone who disagrees please feel free to ask me how i know this. Ive got plenty of references i can give you to show you the proof these are not what you want to protect your life against 2 or 4 legged threats. There is a reason law enforcement and military have never used lightweight junk like this. If you want a real defensive round go with HST or other proven projectiles. Im not trying to bash anyones opinions, I just want people to have what they need to protect themselves and their loved ones if they ever find themselves in the situation.
The Paul Harrel tests are pretty telling that these are highly effective rounds. Using the FBI standard on something that behaves like a rifle round and passes through certain lvl 3a vest is like comparing apples to oranges. Also we got many hog hunters in different threads saying they drop pigs like rifle rounds. Ohh and another guy whose dad did an autopsy on a guy who got hit with 5 of these rounds and he was allegedly shredded.
Good job on the video. This is not the first video in which this round didn't penetrate enough, However, and I must not be a physics genius, i seem to recall seeing another video where this round blasted through body armor that an fmj barely made a mark on. doesn't make much sense lol
Because the FBI standard is giving a false conclusion as its set up for traditional handgun rounds (heavy and barely supersonic). Unfortunately many youtubers don't understand this concept. This round isn't underpenetrating due to being under powered but rather being overpowered. The bullet is acting like a rifle round as it produces extreme levels of hydrostatic shock and fragmenting into 7 pieces. Even through lvl 3A vest and barriers it still produces the same terminal effect. This is what 100% energy transfer on target looks like.
Penetration in ballistics gel isn't the same as in a human body. Ballistics gel is homogeneous, it's all the exact same material. The human body is made up of a bunch of different parts. Bones, muscle, fat, different organs, even different clothing types. Bullets hitting any combination of those will change how they penetrate. The FBI said that 12-16" in gel will translate to enough in a human body.
I'm not a ballistics expert, not a trauma surgeon. What I do know is that this round doesn't seem to hit the minimum standard I use, the FBI uses. Unless I'm mistaken, no official agency or department uses this load. From what I looked up, even air Marshall's, with the inherent threat of overpenetration, use standard law enforcement hollow points.
@@TheKalkara131 Penetration is very important, but you're basing your standard on just one of several factors that make a round effective in terms of terminal ballistics. And it didn't miss the mark by much, even in that respect. This round more than makes up for narrowly missing the penetration mark by dumping EVERY LAST BIT of it's kinetic energy into the target immediately and not exiting, not to mention being able to penetrate light armor. It behaves like a fast rifle round, just as it was designed. Also, those fragments could easily puncture a lung or even the heart if they were to miss the ribs. I can assure you it will dispatch an attacker just as efficiently, if not more so, as any other hollow point out there. With a well placed shot, of course. Even though I personally think you missed the mark on this particular round, it's still very good content. Hope you keep it up. Liked and subscribed.
I don't deny that this will probably work on the overwhelming majority of threats. From what i've seen, just having a firearm and using it at all usually end the threat, let alone hitting the target. I acknowledge that the situations where penetration of the extent I want is actually REQUIRED are very rare. However, for me, considering there are other options out there that do hit the standard I want, I choose them. Thanks for the sub.
Penetration? From the front of a typical dudes chest to his heart or lungs is less than 20 inches. This round is more than enough to stop your attacker. The fragmentation is the definition of devastating - huge wound cavity and blood loss.
Believe it or not, Mike moon man, down here on earth not really anybody advises primarily aiming for the head. Here's the secret reason why: it's a small target, and in an adrenaline fueled, highly dynamic situation like a gun fight, a lot harder to hit than center mass. If you're talking about head shots, sure, this'll work. So would 22lr. Hell 22 short probably would penetrate a skull too. Now tell me, how often do you see soldiers or cops, people who have a high chance of needing to stop an armed threat, carrying 22?
@TheKalkara131 the average male in his 30s has a chest (bust) depth of 9.9 inches, so with that being said, this round should and will hit any vital behind the rib cage. So, from my view up here on the moon, I'm right. HEARTS AND MINDS!
Its interesting that MANY jurisdictions in this country BAN folding knife blades of over 3.5 inches because that is the average / proximate depth of the human heart...YET...almost ALL the people that test handgun ammo say a round is useless if it only penetrates 8 to 10 inches ?!?!?!? HOW does that make sense ?!?!? If your heart , lungs , liver , jugular vein and brain are ALL far less than 8 inches deep , do YOU want to get shot by a bullet traveling almost 2,000 feet per second and penetrates deep enough to hit those organs ?!?!? I think NOT !!!!
1. Desirability to get shot by a round is a terrible way to decide how effective said round is for self defense. 2. I know nothing about knives being banned because of how long the blades are, compared to how deep vital organs are. 3. I do know that the 12-18" number comes directly from the FBI, and they continue to use it as the standard for their handgun and rifle rounds. Because when it comes to defensive handguns, it's a possibility, maybe even likely, that you won't always get a picture perfect, unmoving, frontal shot like on the flat range. Angles, clothing, possible barriers, limbs, bones, can all work against a bullet. Which is why they settled on the 12-18" number. Because they found in their testing and going over probably thousands of shootings and after action reports, rounds that penetrated past 12" in ballistics gel tended to get deep enough in a human body to both hit and destroy vital organs.
FBI is testing clothes plus significant body fat at belly level. 12 inches penetrates the average male easily. Upper chest it will destroy the heart which is 3.5 inches or the lungs. Its an effective round.
Massive energy dump and no over penetration. Loads stay in the perp, preventing those nasty lawsuits when you shoot a robber or home invader and the exiting round hits a innocent person. Slow-mo shots during penetration in other gel shots, shows massive energy cavity, larger than a 357 magnum round, that would destroy internal organs. And it shoots thru IIIa armor....and the metal car door behind it...just saying.
Poor testing. Maybe he should have seen the tests with clay blocks, watermelons, etc. Also, 4-5 inches where the explosion of shrapnel is heaviest, will destroy lungs, heart and other organs. BTW, the author needs to be aware that the 9mm CD rds. go thru Level 3A body armor (now how's that for penetration???
wouldn't you want that for home defense??? I use liberty civil defense 70GR 10MM for home defense...The Black Talons were amazing rounds,,,,,,,, gonna subscribe to your channel.....keep up the good work!!
In my personal opinion Liberty civil defense is the best available projectile on the market. That bullet causes massive trauma even on fluffy people like yourself.
Dudes definitely an average Reddit enthusiast.. Buddy, it does what it’s designed to do. Dump all its energy on impact. Also, how deep do you prefer your 9mm to penetrate for self defense? 10” seems more than sufficient for 9mm.
@@essayegg6990 sorry to break your egg, essay, but not really. And I've responded to a couple others, but I can't be bothered to respond to every single one. I only responded to you because I got a notification you just commented.
I wouldn't want to get hit with a BB Gun, so my opinion doesn't mean much, but "A Kinetic Energy 500+ Ft-Lb Gapping 6" Explosion Inside A Human Body Might Tend To Make A Victim Shit In His Pants." Or "Spill His Guts In A Confession" given at "Last Rites!"
Oh absolutely, I recognize that in a lot of, maybe even most situations this will be enough. The mere presence of a firearm is often enough to stop a threat. But if that threat is truly determined to kill you, and due to whatever reason not feeling any pain, I want a load that will penetrate deep enough.
@@TheKalkara131 It penetrates certain lvl 3A vest. The FBI standard is flawed when using a round like this, its like comparing apples to oranges. Its funny seeing people confused how it only goes 11" in ballistic gel but goes through a level 3A vest.
Using meat like that as a medium gives too many inconsistencies. If I hit a bone directly on, it'll cause it to act differently than if I just nick it. The angle I hit it at can greatly change how it performs. And then there's the fact that living human tissue is a bit different than a piece of pork, that's been dead who knows how long, I bought from the grocery store. There's a reason why departments and agencies use ballistics gel. It's a consistent medium that should give relatively similar resistance across different tests.
it will stop a person from doing Bodley damage to you... by killing quickly... it does this whiling also making my EDC super light which makes me carry it more... so really win win ...also do not have to worry about a lawsuit from the random joe behind the target.
It goes through lvl 3a vest, the FBI test is a flawed way to test these rounds as it assumes its a traditional handgun round being used. Go watch Gun Gordon Ramsey aka Paul Harrel. Even he was impressed by these rounds.
Dude it’s on civil liberties site that it only gets 12” of penetration lol that’s literally the bare minimum of the fbi standards. So what if it can go through a vest? You can’t base it off of velocity alone. 50gr is too light and doesn’t carry enough energy period. Its shallow penetration isn’t enough to hit vital organs and will just end up in the skin, fat, muscle and bone before it could ever get deep enough to get the organs. Plus add on the clothing. My underwood defenders go 1475fps with 435 ftlbs of energy and get 18” of penetration and leave a large wound cavity. They also can’t get clogged by clothing or material. They can go through glass drywall etc and do their job but still not over penetrate. Sorry but 50gr is too light. It doesn’t penetrate far enough and the round breaks up into pieces. It’s not an effective rounds unless you at extremely close ranges and even still it’s not good. Ppl get shot 14 times with a 45 and live so your round with the density of a badminton shuttlecock 🏸 is hardly something to worry about
"not deep enough to cause significant injuries"
LOL. Lost me at that one.
What, it's true. 12-18 inches in gel means the bullet stops inside the person in reality, so 3 inches in gel is barely past the skin. He said a bb gets 3 inches in gel.
Those little fragments are not going to reach vitals. Obviously the round will still kill you, but I don't think it's as effective as other options.
@@geometerfpv2804 The issue is that this rounds mode of killing is radically different from most handgun rounds because it acts like a rifle round due to the high velocity and copper hollow point construction. Its more akin to fragmenting M193 (I don't even need to explain how lethal that round is) thus the FBI standard doesn't tell the full story as its optimized for "normal" handgun rounds. The round didn't reach 12 inches due to being under powered but rather because it dumped all its energy via an insane amount of hydrostatic shock. For reference this round has penetrated lvl 3A vests (results vary with brand but you get the point) which is flat out impressive. If you aren't convinced of its performance even Paul Harrel was shocked by its lethality and his only concern was POI shift between it and your training ammo.
@@geometerfpv2804 lol @ "3 inches in gel is barely past the skin".
Because skin is now made of kevlar.
And hold a ruler up to the chest and see where 3-5" would put it?
The sheared off petals don't make a little line slice like we see in gel...rather, they open a gaping hole that is 2.5-4" wide and 5" deep...plus the base going in a foot.
The FBI ballistics standard was developed back in 1986, it’s widely used, it’s easy, but it’s definitely not an “end all be all” for real world bullet lethality. Think of the type bullet technology back then when those standards were developed. Paul Harrell and his “meat targets” are legendary and are an amazingly great simulation of a human body. (4 t-shirts, leather jacket, chicken breast pectoral muscles, pork ribs rib age, sack of oranges for lung tissue, pork ribs ribcage, 4 layers t-shirts, then bullet backstop) This 9mm ammo absolutely vaporized the lungs/oranges and penetrated bones, meat, and exited. The damage was astounding…and it shows that FBI protocol isn’t the only way to prove lethality.
@@southernlonghorn4507 I make the pretty much exact same argument, particularly about Paul's video...although I'm sure it was grapefruit in that one, not oranges. And his word was "Annihilated" not vaporize. But yes.
But I go much, much further...and argue the 12 - 18" is why we see assailants, one after another, being able to absorb multiple shots - without even a hiccup in their aims. Some can take a dozen shots and still able to provoke 2 more shots. Just saw a woman do that in a PoliceActivity video. Gabe Tauscher got hit 15 times with .45 acp...and still won the battle. So while tech has advanced - I believe the FBI fudd has caused it to be advanced in the wrong direction...& designed to go some ideal of 14-16" or that 12" minimum - - - at the expense of doing damage in the 3-9" region. Civil Defense & Overwatch and some other calibers do exactly that. I had suspected but needed to see for myself so I put a few rounds into pork shoulders.
The way fast & fracturing rounds create damage is just what the FBI requirement is completely missing. When it comes to maximizing the potential of surface-area & energy...a projectile staying together, and all of its mass is moving along the same wound path...nah, pass. Spread it out.
16" of penetration? Maybe in rare instances...but the disc in the Overwatch goes pretty far.
If a P.D. would simply give it a try...and just see if attackers nerve-endings don't quickly tell them - "oh hey - that chunk there is now missing...hmmm - I should stop?"
I doubt anytime soon, though, that they'd do what I do, and have 3 or 4 Liberty rounds 1st in magazine, followed by staggering of G9, HST and more Liberty.
Cops have pretty different scenarios than a personal-defender...but I'd think they sure would prefer to see some more rapid stops. Either that...or start aiming "higher"?
It's exactly designed to dump energy quickly to not overpenetrate
Absolutely & a butt load of energy at that, a lot more than a typical 45!! Get so tired of people crying "penetration"!
@@rocknraptor3195 Yea you DON'T want penetration in a defense round, you want that SOB to hit and OPEN and destroy ...
@@ACommenterOnRUclipsexactly. This guys a moe ron
@@ACommenterOnRUclips Agreed, I am on our church security team and over penetration is a huge serious concern. Imagine needing to shoot someone in a super packed crowded room and your bullet zips through its intended target. That isn’t gonna happen with this round.
@@southernlonghorn4507 i think i have noticed that in the recent months that people have changed from wound channel (min penetration) to max penetration ...
Im like, since when did the self defense story change from min penetration and max wound channel to max penetration and no wound channel ???
This is why we use HPJ to avoid penetration and to create that immediate wound channel ...
Does EXACTLY what ot should do dumps all energy and does it very well AND it is capable going through body armor out of a 4in barrel
yep, i think this expert missed the point and purpose of this round, way too expert for it.
Exactly….likely hasn’t shot enough critters to know what kills things and seeing what this bullet does….WOW, this is deadly. The FBI ballistics standard was developed back in 1986, it’s widely used, it’s easy, but it’s definitely not an “end all be all” for real world bullet lethality. Think of the type bullet technology back then when those standards were developed. Paul Harrell and his “meat targets” are legendary and are an amazingly great simulation of a human body. (4 t-shirts, leather jacket, chicken breast pectoral muscles, pork ribs rib age, sack of oranges for lung tissue, pork ribs ribcage, 4 layers t-shirts, then bullet backstop) This 9mm ammo absolutely vaporized the lungs/oranges and penetrated bones, meat, and exited. The damage was astounding…and it shows that FBI protocol isn’t the only way to prove lethality.
I don't know. It seems to me like that might be a viable option. The damage is going to be shallow, but it fairly catastrophic. Between the kinetic effect of that energy dump and the massive tissue damage and bleeding from the craters, I can imagine these being effective. Not a viable or humane hunting option, but it might be effective for self defense.
I don't understand your Logic at all! Is the depth of your Torso 10"? IMO this Bullet is a Killer Round, especially with the way it Fragmented and what do you think happens inside a human body with all those Fragments going in many directions! Also, we have to think about more than one bullet entering a Torso, not just a single round! Many times it's not the solid bullet causing the most damage but all these Fragments are Deadly! Just ask any Doctor who is experienced with Gun Shot Victims and Do The Research! You have proved that this is a Killer Round and it will do the job without Over Penetration! Thank You!
It isn't my logic, it's the logic of Dr. Martin Fackler and the guys at the FBI Ballistics Lab. They decided that a bullet needs to penetrate 12-18" in ballistics gel in order to penetrate deep enough in a human body to hit and destroy vital organs. Penetration in gel isn't the same as penetration in a human body, they aren't 1:1.
@@TheKalkara131 Broo. That's the fbi my guy. They're going up against some super dangerous people. We civilians often times have shoot outs 3-5 maybe 10ft away, and those rounds would do so much damage to a person, especially if it hits a neck, heart, chest, or even liver. In reality are we trying to destroy people?? there's this over kill energy in the gun community lol. Ppl have died from legs shots, thighs shots and to kill with a modern firearms is easy, cuz if they don't die, they're paralyzed or maimed, I believe in modest rounds even though i carry this specific ammo lol. if I feel really threatened 108gr Underwood. And that's over kill tbh.
Consider a shot at an angle, Consider ribs or other bone.
@@TheKalkara131 gonna piggy back, Ballistics gel is calibrated to the density of the human body to include bone. I would honestly be more interested in carcass testing. Pop a boar normal, then put one round in the Ribs and one in the stomach and see what kind of damage is done. Gel testing is visually neat but meat target with the new and improved bullet stop gets relatable results.
Exactly. It did precisely what you want your self defense ammo to do. 👍
That fragmentation was devastating that was a good round
If you don’t get a full frontal shot won’t matter it gonna blow limbs apart more than likely or they’ll be completely useless after being hit by this round
bro you shot the gun 1x and came up with a conclusion, how does that make sense? not every bullet expands when it hits soft tissue. Some just dont, but another round may do exactly what it's supposed to. And personally I would use a longer barrel. These things are nasty. I carry them daily in my PDP comp forsure!
I prefer 1 round because it makes it very easy to see the wound diameter trails and doesn't fog up the gel.
These things kick butt, I carry these and with low recoil you will hit your mark. 2 or 3 within a 6 inch diameter will do the job.
The fact that it goes through body armor is why I want it because they are very common now. These kids are out here actually wearing jackets. Active shooters usually wear BP Vests too.
2 to chest 1 to head
Looks to me that it did a great job. It imparted all the energy inside the target without the bullet causing collateral damage.
The fact that the bullet stopped in the first block means the block absorbed (50x2040x2040)/450436 = 462 ft-lbs of energy. If it had penetrated the block then it would have absorbed less energy. The bullet did exactly what it's designed to do - fragment and deliver all its energy into the target (the first block in this case). For comparison a more common 9mm load like a 115 grain/1200 fps bullet has (115x1200x1200)/450436 = 368 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. So this 50 grain bullet has almost 100 ft-lbs more energy. So if you double bullet weight you double energy, but if you double bullet velocity you quadruple energy! "Stopping power" is more than just how wide and deep the wound channels are - it also involves how much hydrostatic shock the bullet creates by transferring its energy into the target. A more realistic test of the effectiveness of these bullets would be on how they behave on live animals like deer and hogs. Some of your followers who hunt or work on farms may have experience with this. Thanks!
Well explanation! And that's exactly the method to the Liberty design. Simply can't be compared to other self defense rounds on the market. In a league of its own
bUt tHe fBi sAId 12 iNcHeS
Except his velocity was 2175 fps, not the 2040 shown on the box and in your calculation...which means 525 ft#.
So, over 150 ft# higher than the 368 you used to compare it with.
It's higher energy than much of the 10mm I've chrono'd.
@@masontaylor6543 I think your central nervous system would disagree LOL
2:42 18 inches is the max penetration for federal HP standards (iirc) Its designed to stop in humans and soft stuff like drywall to help keep other casualties to a minimum. Dumping it's energy while expanding it's mass to take down the target. Personally I think this is an awesome round for CIVIL DEFENSE. 10 inches is really perfect and that expansion is perfect too.
The FBI came up with the 12-18" standard because the best and fastest way that you, as the shooter, can make a threat stop being a threat is to cause massive, rapid blood loss by having a load penetrate deep enough to both hit and destroy vital organs.
You can't rely upon energy transfer to stop a threat. You can't rely on merely being shot at or the presence of a firearm to stop a threat. Might they? Sure, but it's beyond your control. You don't know what your attackers frame of mind is, what they may be on, etc. Having a load that will go deep enough to hit and destroy vital organs, in the wide variety of situations and angles that a real world gun fight will be in, is why they came up with the 12-18" standard.
Stop giving advice dude you aren’t built for it
It doesn't have to penetrate deep if it obliterates everything it penetrates. Watch some of the videos of it's use in tissue also against level III balistic vest and you will be impressed.
Are usually don’t comment, but I will say that this guy needs to reevaluate his testing parameters. This is a devastating round. So much power pierce through level three body and still legal parts to cause devastating internal damage. I’m pretty sure this is one of the better self defense arounds.
It's fast, yes, but those fragments are very shallow. Gel is not a 1-to-1 model for humans, it is much less dense. 3 inch depth is barely past the skin, so those fragments are not going to make it to vitals. They'll cause bleeding, but that's not gonna instantly stop a threat.
@@geometerfpv2804 Brother it passes through a lvl 3a vest, it doesn't have an issue with penetration. This round is so radically different from a tradition handgun round that the FBI standard is useless. Go watch the Paul Harrel (gun Gordon Ramsey) video on this ammo even he was shocked with the performance with his only concern being POI shift from training ammo
@geometerfpv2804 Watch some videos of what it does to meat targets and see what you feel about those
No doubt…it takes BIG things to impress Paul Harrell but this ammo absolutely liquefied the insides of that target and still passed through. Ain’t anyone surviving a chest shot with one of these.
@@geometerfpv2804 It's not less dense - - -according to Fackler, gel is exactly calibrated to mimic the density of tissue (muscle) and is a 1-to-1. That's the organic stuff, though. Not this synthetic rubber we see being used here. So, it's indeed going to reach vitals. The 10% gel leaves a more realistic looking wound that people say "temporary stretch doesn't matter"...but it does. That gel looks just like it does in meat. The clear gel is more stingy with expansion, which then results in a bit more penetration if a round is affected in that way. Civil Defense, isn't. It flies apart just the same and leaves a 4" wide by 5" inch hole up through about 6". Put a ruler up to the sternum and see where 6" is going to put it.
So you’re expecting the same penetration out of a bullet that is less than half the weight of the “standard” JHP…. Seems logical.
I still want to try these simply because of the weight per mag versus carrying a loaded mag with 124 grain HP or even 115, it is a few oz difference I've seen a video on it, so if it's less weighing down my belt then it could be beneficial, And I live in apartment too!
But the price tag on these things are definitely high that's for sure.
I've been carrying these Liberty civil defense 50 grain plus p in my carry gun for 7 years takes so much weight off of the gun it's amazing less weight on your belt or in your pocket Plus it dumps all the energy into the first object it hits very little chance of collateral damage or over-penetration they're awesome rounds
J&K..you won’t believe how nice it is to carry. Basically a 3/1 ratio..love this stuff..been carrying it for years.
I carry these and the recoil is bizarre! It's around 1/3 the felt recoil of a 115gr fmj. It's pretty crazy how little felt recoil it has. It's cycled in all my 9mm pistols and pcc. As a plus when loaded into a magazine they're considerably lighter (almost feels like am empty mag) so it's also less weight on your belt/ in your pocket. I really think these are about the best 9mm defensive loads out there. (these and underwood's 90gr +p+ extreme defenders, they're excellent as well).
With an energy dump of close to 450 foot pounds of energy, that is pretty close to a 55gr .223 at 300 meters. Having seen people take multiple rounds of 62 gr. 5.56, I will take the LCD as a carry option any day.
Those fragments basically turn your insides to mush mountain lion coyotes and hogs I shot chest and stomach cavities where destroyed this is the best 9mm round ever in my opinion the amount of shear destruction it causes in one single target is unmatched even the rip ammo doesn’t compare run this same test on a ballistic dummy with fake organs I’m sure you will change your opinion on this round and for good measure put a leather vest on it
I wonder if a 3.2" barrel would give a slower fragmentation rate and give deeper penetration to the 12" FBI minimum?
In retrospect, I should have tried a shorter barrel. I'll make a second video trying it.
Who Tee Whoo launched one out of a carbine and it did 2600 fps!
@@TheKalkara131 would love to see results out of a short barrel
Even though slower, it's not going to be that slower enough to see any real difference with the Civil Defense.
Their Overwatch line is what someone should seek if they want a bit deeper penetration and slightly less wide of a gaping hole that might be a bit deeper.
I disagree vehemently with your conclusion here; new to the channel and I'm not saying anything more than what I write, but here we go.
As a general rule, in a perfect world, you should ALWAYS want your round to stop in the target, as this means all the potential energy of the round is dumped into said target and it prevents overpenetration and a risk of collateral damage/injury, both of which is exactly what this loading did.
Now I will address the penetration goals you have/FBI standards they look for. I understand it from a Law Enforcement perspective where they want to be able to make sure they're getting EFFECTIVE hits on target and may need to account for things like body armor, thick clothes, and in many such scenarios where deadly force is utilized they often don't have much to worry about in terms of overpenetration risks to others (I know there are exceptions). In a civilian, concealed carry sort of use though, overpenetrating a target is likely to be a MAJOR concern, especially in a public setting.
The diameter of the overall wound (including the petals/fragments) should cause massive internal bleeding and would likely render the person incapacitated fairly quickly from the sheer overpressure of the circulatory system alone, though the tracks increasing blood loss ought to hurry the process along even if it doesn't.
Either way not a bad video but I disagree with your conclusions is all. Have a good one
You should always want your round to stop in your target, sure. But you also need a round that will penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs, in situations and angles other than a perfect, nobody moving, frontal shot like you get on the range. Which leads to the penetration standard.
LEOs don't carry a different load just because they're out in public. By and large, I'm pretty sure they use what they're issued regardless of situation. LEOs carry ammo that matches the FBI penetration standard, despite the fact that they, not civilians, are more likely to engage threats in public. Why? Because unless you're in a mosh pit or in the middle of the crowd at a parade, there's almost always more empty space in the world than people. When I'm walking around Walmart, I'm not pushing people out of the way every other second. If a load overpenetrates, decent chance it'll be robbed of most of its energy, and there shouldn't be someone right behind them anyway (4 safety rules). However, if you're in a bad situation and you're up against a threat that isn't feeling any pain and is determined to kill you, I want a load that will go deep enough to hit and destroy vital organs. There's plenty of videos out there of people getting lit up by police and they either don't stop at all, or maybe stagger then keep right on coming.
You can't use the petals to extend the diameter of the permanent wound cavity. The PWC is the wound track, the tissue physically destroyed by the passage of the bullet. The petals don't make that central wound track bigger, they just create extra ones. Yes it may be nasty wound, but given the penetration, I stand by my conclusion. Especially in a dynamic, moving situation like most real world encounters are, it may not be deep enough to hit the heart and other vital organs. Which, behind destroying the central nervous system, is the best way to make a threat not a threat.
Hey Dork, it performed just like it's supposed to. it's supposed to hit hard, fragment like hell and cause multiple ugly wound channels dump energy and not over penetrate.
Lol someone's awful defensive, resorting to name calling and justifications
it's not really multiple ugly wound channels...It's one giant ugly wound. The petals create a single gaping 2.5-4" wide hole that is ~4-5" deep (because of the velocity that this stuff is moving).
Comparing their wounding potential due to penetration distance; to a BB, when doing over 2000 fps - because BB also penetrates 3" is just silly. The reason they don't penetrate further, is because of the resistance (tearing, shredding) they are doing because of their shape & surface-area...nothing like a BB.
Insane speeds from a handgun!
I was half convinced your chronograph was wonky...But tested this & the Ultra Light this week and got same velocities.
Fire!! 🔥
Rifle performance and I like the round coming apart. More chances of having hot metal rubbing across an organ. A small explosion in the middle section is not a flesh wound.
The 68 +p xtreme defender is a boss! I just tested the 68 grain xtreme defender in 357 sig out of my 5 inch barrel I got 2282 FPS
I definitely want to try it
That's all I carry in my EDC guns. Best round I have ever tested personally.
That sounds better..
I'm not worried about the round being 2" short of the standard. I believe the initial shock will be enough to stop your average thug. I like the idea of a 50g high speed bullet for the reduced recoil impulse and probably further range.
I carry these and the recoil is bizarre! It's around 1/3 the felt recoil of a 115gr fmj. It's pretty crazy how little felt recoil it has. It's cycled in all my 9mm pistols and pcc. As a plus when loaded into a magazine they're considerably lighter (almost feels like am empty mag) so it's also less weight on your belt/ in your pocket. I really think these are about the best 9mm defensive loads out there. (these and underwood's 90gr +p+ extreme defenders, they're excellent as well).
This is a great video. Very informative. Been carrying +p underwood defender. However after this video, I realized if I ever had to drop a MF with my 9 I’d love to be wearing a shirt like yours!
Can't go wrong with Demolition Ranch and Retro Rifle
Hey, I like his Shirt but, your right in that, it'd be a Great Target Perp Shirt!
That would leave some seriously deflated lungs and the base would still take out the spine. I like it. 👍
This round is designed to go through armor or a hard barrier. Not travel far. It's supposed to screw up it's target and not travel through it, possibly hitting something behind it. You want penetration, choose another type of round.
i can imagine it will go thru a car door and hit the person.
Its called hydrostatic shock. It will split your gut wide open and you will go down. I bet my life on it. I have thousands of these rounds. Best 9mm round available.
You have thousands of these defense rounds ?? $2k+ worth of defense ammo ???
@@ACommenterOnRUclips Do you assume that I am broke?
@@priznuruvchrist4549 i didn't assume nothing. I asked if you had thousands of rounds of HPJ ammo in your home that would cost you well into the $ Thousands at ~$1+ per round.
Thousands of rounds of FMJ would cost you several hundreds of $$ ...
The average person does NOT have thousands of HPJ ammo in their home let alone several hundred.
I have many co-workers that have MANY guns and they may have 100 rounds of HPJ in their home while having a few thousand of FMJ ....
My close co-worker is ex military and owns 36 hand guns and he only has ~300 HPJ rounds in his home ...
Not saying you don't but for someone to say they have thousands of HPJ's at home is hard to believe when most if not all stack up on FMJ because its cheap and MOST if not all only carry about 100 HPJ's in their home ...
@@ACommenterOnRUclips I have no reason to lie. I understand averages, so I get your logic. A wise salesman at one point in my life taught me never to think with my wallet. I have many things. My original post wasnt meant to boast, so I apologize if I came across that way, it was meant to support liberty and their product in which I personally use and believe in and purchase often. Thats it.
Can you imagine a surgeon’s reaction to having to find all of those fragments?
Try putting a refrigerator door in front of the gel and get back to me. I’ve got some old videos on here with liberty ammo. You also need to take into account with that speed the temporary cavity will be destroyed also
ruclips.net/video/zGD2RjTWViI/видео.html
I think a lot of people are missing the point of this ammo here in the comments
50 grain = light weight
+P for faster acceleration = better impact
Regardless of YOUR opinion, this IS a very effective round. Not only do I do testing of my own, I have been shot in the hand (accidental discharge) and it was and still is brutal.
Looks like it works fine too me bud
I want more energy dumped into the target. This achieves that in spades. It also penetrates some 3a armor. The hrdostaic shock is closer to a5.56 round than a pistol round. The penetration Stat is overated.
It's supposed to dump all of its energy into its target. My only question is, what makes you think that you're a subject matter expert? Those rounds do exactly what they are supposed to do. My question is, why would you want over penetration?
That thing cause so much tremial damage you can hit someone in the stomach they will die from just the shock.
50 grains its like s 22 magnum
Might be good enough for some bodyguards, assaulting structures with guard dogs, some missions on small boats, etc.
Yes it lacks penetration but the flight time to 100m/150m must be advantageous.
Zero drop out to 100m too.
I think this ammo is best suited for a Kel Tec Sub 2000 type weapon where it really gets cooking at 2600 fps.
These would be good for a farm varmit round put 5 or 8 in the mag to top it off think it would make very good critter getter
This is a Fast Bullet. Has anyone done a 15, 20, 25+ yards tests with this round in Ballistic gel? If so, one commenter had it right as being a Viable Defensive Carry 9mm round, IMO. I'd just have to spend lots of $$$ to make sure it feeds 100% in my Carry Gun.
It should. P365 has no problem with it. My sample size of 1 ad they say
This round is designed to create hydro shock and tissue damage without collateral damage beyond the target. It’s called a “frangible round” and it performed exactly as designed. Thanks for the video though dude!
The core is not designed to expand. What kind of blood loss would this cause
I might would be interested in sending you a few of these rounds to test, but modify them. One version would have a steel ball pressed in the hollow and the other would have a aluminum spike epoxied in the hollow point. I bet that would cause some damage and may still travel at 1900-2000fps.
It would not
@@johnnycampbell3422 it would not what? You tried this? Or you are taking a guess?
@@Turbogto_guy not saying it's impossible to make such a round; just saying weight/pressure/ballance problems would prevent those rounds from reaching 1900fps. Based on 50 years of firearms experience.
Yes I would like to see a slight variation of this round.
Yep, so professional
Would it do better on penetration if it wasn’t a hollowpoint?
I’m 5’11” 250 pounds. If you put your back against the wall how thick is your chest. Mine’s about 13 inches. So according to you, this bullet would pretty much reach my spine. So how do you think it’s not gonna hit your organs since they are in the middle
So you actually seem to know what you're talking about, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. I'm sure you know that a lot of terminal ballistics, there's long been a delineation between "low velocity" and "high velocity" projectiles, and this distinction emerges around 2000fps and up. Beyond this threshold, projectiles are able to impart enough energy into tissue as to cause permanent damage through tissue displacement, ie stretch wounding. (I'm of the opinion that this is a gross oversimplification, as there's a lot of interesting data out there demonstrating indirect wounding happens at far lower velocities in various tissues, but i digress; this is the established baseline). This round, being absolutely pissin' hot, in excess of 2100fps, to me, seems to have the potential to cause some catastrophic tissue damage upon initial impact. Particularly given its weight, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to assess this similarly to a kind of shitty .223, or comparable high-energy varmint cartridge in excess of the performance envelope of 5.7. If you compare, the fragments from these things are comparable to the lower end of performance of fragments from 5.56 in size and penetration. And there are 5.56 loads which come to a rest around 10" and are still quite effective, which I think can speak to this penetration criteria being specifically for "low velocity" type projectiles. Not to say 10" isn't a little bit underperforming (or that this ammunition is directly comparable to 5.56) but it's not quite terrible either. I've heard these rounds are quite impressive on hogs, seen them do nasty things to hogs, read some trauma reports of what fragmenting handgun ammunition can do to people; these may be on to something. The most compelling thing about them, by far, is that initial impact velocity and the way they are able to violently fragment at that near-2200fps. Their potential seems to be missed when examined with criteria established to evaluate "low-velocity" hollowpoints, especially as gel testing doesn't really do a good job representing stretch wounding. Three or four of these to the chest, or even the arms, I'd think would be quite debilitating due to the shock-wounding potential.
The FBI standards don't work on rounds like these because they act like rifle rounds . Go watch slow motion ballistics gel testing the hydrostatic shock is the same as a rifle round and this thing goes through lvl 3A. The poster got the completely wrong conclusion because the standard he is applying is giving him false notions. A slow motion camera and a lvl3A vest would have shown him that is really happening
With how light these are and low recoil, if you hit an attacker 5+ times, they’re probably gonna get some devastating damage done to them.
The initial cavity is as big as a basketball... Lights Out!!! The ballistics work differently than a standard hollow point...
You can tell when someone has only read or watched videos in comparison to seeing what high velocities actually do to soft tissue in person.
I do construction for a living. There aren't that many straight lines in a properly built residence to worry about overpenetration with a 9mm.
I’m sorry, I’m not saying you are wrong, but I’m not trying to pull some CoD triple kill with one round. 18” penetration lol
I'm doubting the doctors, trauma surgeons and medics the FBI has worked with over the years to come up with and continue using the 12-18" penetration standard used Call Of Duty as a metric.
@@TheKalkara131 With the heart being less than 2" behind skin with all of those blood vessels I see this ammo being devastating. Watch 223 50-53 grain vmax in ballistic gel at further distances and wound channels are very similar. Fragment pieces are near the main expansion area and don't penetrate far.
@@dannyteets According to the paper I'm referencing, the major vital organs are located deep within the chest, not 2". If that was the case, how thick are the ribs that that cover and protect our vital organs? Half an inch? And then the skin, fat, and muscle?
@@TheKalkara131 Of course it depends on the angle of entry. A straight on shot the heart lies roughly 40mm from skin surface to heart.
@@TheKalkara131 I would not hesitate using this ammo in my edc if it functions flawlessly. I however would not use this for home defense. Carrying for self defense vs home defense has a different mentality for me. In my home, I am not retreating. I'm already in my safe place. They are getting an AR or shotgun. Carrying in public my goal is to get myself and family out of a situation. Period! From a legal standpoint in my state that's the best choice unfortunately. At the distances of a confrontation in self defense that is justifiable here, accuracy should not be an issue for someone that trains. Multiple shots on target with any self defense ammo should allow me to accomplish that goal.
Please test this against cheap lvl 3 armor. Not lvl 3a armor because those are known to be pierced by 1900 fps 90 grain 9mm
Liked your video, disagree with your conclusion. A gel test is a means to comparatively observe performance amongst different bullets @ varying velocities. Thanks
The human heart is just beneath the sternum. That's why chest compressions work. Lungs are shallow too.
People seem to think we are polar bears or something.
@@matthewd.1805 assuming the person you're shooting at is kind, and stands there allowing you a perfect, unmoving, frontal shot. And it's not some kind of adrenaline and drug fueled, highly dynamic situation.
I didn't make the 12-18" standard. Trauma surgeons and ballistics experts did, and the FBI still uses it for all of their load testing to this day.
@@TheKalkara131 those facts are not lost on me, friend.
My post was directed at certain commenters.
Designed to dump energy very quickly preventing over penetration. Defeats level three armor. 2040fps will shock and instantly drop most threats.
This is what happens when you apply a handgun round standard to a handgun round that is more akin to a rifle round. This round is low recoil, produces an impressive amount of hydrostatic shock, fragments reliably, and can penetrate lvl 3a vests.
Yes - it's 5.7 x 28 on steroids.
How does thus thing penetrat so far for 50 grain
Other gel tests on RUclips consistently get 12". Usually there is an FBI clothing barrier in these tests. Hmmm...
Gel and a human body are NOT the same.
How deep would you say ur spin is.
Bro, how far do you think organs are buried in a human body?
I've never done the exploratory surgery myself, unlike you. But, going off the data the FBI uses, a round that penetrates 12-18" in gel will get deep enough. You do know penetration in gel isn't a 1:1 comparison to a human body, right?
It's a conundrum. I have the heavy, knock you down 9 mm rounds and I have the lighter Liberty rounds, and in a perfect world you have time to decide and grab the magazine that is appropriate for the conditions. Solid odds that you get all torso shots...knock you down rounds, increased risk that a miss may continue through a door or window...grab the lighter frag rounds.
Define damage? You explode 3” in and the flesh on the other end is going to be very displeased. I’m not understanding the RUclipsrs saying this round is garbage. If ballistics gel is not the proper medium to test then what the fuck is? This does exactly what I want and I carry it without concern
Vital organs are not that deep in the body. I think this round performed well.
Couple things:
1. penetration in ballistics gel isn't a 1:1 comparison to penetration in a human body.
2. The penetration standard was set in place by trauma surgeons and ballistics experts with a lot of funding by the FBI a few decades ago. I'm guessing they know what they're talking about
3. That penetration depth is accounting for the fact that in most real world shooting encounters, people tend to not just stand in one place and present their center mass, unmoving and all nice like.
Accuracy is more important then all the deph nonsense.
These rounds have been found to be exceptionally accurate and have lower recoil which helps
I live in a real world and 450 + ft lbs of energy expended is devastating.
Consider any part of the average human body and 6 inches of total devastation in tissue would be catastrophic and most likely debilitating.
I don’t shoot 9mm but I would use that round for self defence.
I’m talking real world and not shooting thru car doors: I’m using my weapon as a last resort then clearing the area and this round does exactly as designed and IMO is quite adequate.
These are just gimmicky junk. Gel does not represent real world results. Anyone who disagrees please feel free to ask me how i know this. Ive got plenty of references i can give you to show you the proof these are not what you want to protect your life against 2 or 4 legged threats. There is a reason law enforcement and military have never used lightweight junk like this. If you want a real defensive round go with HST or other proven projectiles. Im not trying to bash anyones opinions, I just want people to have what they need to protect themselves and their loved ones if they ever find themselves in the situation.
The Paul Harrel tests are pretty telling that these are highly effective rounds. Using the FBI standard on something that behaves like a rifle round and passes through certain lvl 3a vest is like comparing apples to oranges. Also we got many hog hunters in different threads saying they drop pigs like rifle rounds. Ohh and another guy whose dad did an autopsy on a guy who got hit with 5 of these rounds and he was allegedly shredded.
9mm+p+ isn't 1300fps. That's getting in 357sig territory
If this test were able to be done with flesh meat, went twice as deep..
Paul harrel did a great job w these. The meat target tells a different story this this gentleman's conclusions.
Good job on the video. This is not the first video in which this round didn't penetrate enough, However, and I must not be a physics genius, i seem to recall seeing another video where this round blasted through body armor that an fmj barely made a mark on. doesn't make much sense lol
Because the FBI standard is giving a false conclusion as its set up for traditional handgun rounds (heavy and barely supersonic). Unfortunately many youtubers don't understand this concept. This round isn't underpenetrating due to being under powered but rather being overpowered. The bullet is acting like a rifle round as it produces extreme levels of hydrostatic shock and fragmenting into 7 pieces. Even through lvl 3A vest and barriers it still produces the same terminal effect. This is what 100% energy transfer on target looks like.
These out of a 16" carbine is 2500 fps
Man im pretty skinny 10" would go right thru me. I've hardly heard of anyone who's organs are deeper than 10" in....
Penetration in ballistics gel isn't the same as in a human body. Ballistics gel is homogeneous, it's all the exact same material. The human body is made up of a bunch of different parts. Bones, muscle, fat, different organs, even different clothing types. Bullets hitting any combination of those will change how they penetrate. The FBI said that 12-16" in gel will translate to enough in a human body.
You need to study terminal ballistics a LOT more if you think this round's performance is insufficient.
I'm not a ballistics expert, not a trauma surgeon. What I do know is that this round doesn't seem to hit the minimum standard I use, the FBI uses. Unless I'm mistaken, no official agency or department uses this load. From what I looked up, even air Marshall's, with the inherent threat of overpenetration, use standard law enforcement hollow points.
@@TheKalkara131 Penetration is very important, but you're basing your standard on just one of several factors that make a round effective in terms of terminal ballistics. And it didn't miss the mark by much, even in that respect. This round more than makes up for narrowly missing the penetration mark by dumping EVERY LAST BIT of it's kinetic energy into the target immediately and not exiting, not to mention being able to penetrate light armor. It behaves like a fast rifle round, just as it was designed. Also, those fragments could easily puncture a lung or even the heart if they were to miss the ribs. I can assure you it will dispatch an attacker just as efficiently, if not more so, as any other hollow point out there. With a well placed shot, of course. Even though I personally think you missed the mark on this particular round, it's still very good content. Hope you keep it up. Liked and subscribed.
I don't deny that this will probably work on the overwhelming majority of threats. From what i've seen, just having a firearm and using it at all usually end the threat, let alone hitting the target. I acknowledge that the situations where penetration of the extent I want is actually REQUIRED are very rare. However, for me, considering there are other options out there that do hit the standard I want, I choose them. Thanks for the sub.
I’m trying to stop 🛑 all threats and stay safe not trying to kill somebody so they are perfect
AR500 3A DID STOP IT THOUGH WITH 22MM DENT IN CHEST.
Penetration? From the front of a typical dudes chest to his heart or lungs is less than 20 inches. This round is more than enough to stop your attacker. The fragmentation is the definition of devastating - huge wound cavity and blood loss.
the gel comparison not ideal..
I'm blown away by this guy's lack of common sense. How thick is a skull? How far away is the brain from the skull 😂 this would absolutely kill.
Believe it or not, Mike moon man, down here on earth not really anybody advises primarily aiming for the head. Here's the secret reason why: it's a small target, and in an adrenaline fueled, highly dynamic situation like a gun fight, a lot harder to hit than center mass. If you're talking about head shots, sure, this'll work. So would 22lr. Hell 22 short probably would penetrate a skull too.
Now tell me, how often do you see soldiers or cops, people who have a high chance of needing to stop an armed threat, carrying 22?
@TheKalkara131 the average male in his 30s has a chest (bust) depth of 9.9 inches, so with that being said, this round should and will hit any vital behind the rib cage. So, from my view up here on the moon, I'm right. HEARTS AND MINDS!
Its interesting that MANY jurisdictions in this country BAN folding knife blades of over 3.5 inches because that is the average / proximate depth of the human heart...YET...almost ALL the people that test handgun ammo say a round is useless if it only penetrates 8 to 10 inches ?!?!?!? HOW does that make sense ?!?!? If your heart , lungs , liver , jugular vein and brain are ALL far less than 8 inches deep , do YOU want to get shot by a bullet traveling almost 2,000 feet per second and penetrates deep enough to hit those organs ?!?!? I think NOT !!!!
1. Desirability to get shot by a round is a terrible way to decide how effective said round is for self defense.
2. I know nothing about knives being banned because of how long the blades are, compared to how deep vital organs are.
3. I do know that the 12-18" number comes directly from the FBI, and they continue to use it as the standard for their handgun and rifle rounds. Because when it comes to defensive handguns, it's a possibility, maybe even likely, that you won't always get a picture perfect, unmoving, frontal shot like on the flat range. Angles, clothing, possible barriers, limbs, bones, can all work against a bullet. Which is why they settled on the 12-18" number. Because they found in their testing and going over probably thousands of shootings and after action reports, rounds that penetrated past 12" in ballistics gel tended to get deep enough in a human body to both hit and destroy vital organs.
FBI is testing clothes plus significant body fat at belly level. 12 inches penetrates the average male easily.
Upper chest it will destroy the heart which is 3.5 inches or the lungs. Its an effective round.
Massive energy dump and no over penetration. Loads stay in the perp, preventing those nasty lawsuits when you shoot a robber or home invader and the exiting round hits a innocent person. Slow-mo shots during penetration in other gel shots, shows massive energy cavity, larger than a 357 magnum round, that would destroy internal organs. And it shoots thru IIIa armor....and the metal car door behind it...just saying.
Poor testing. Maybe he should have seen the tests with clay blocks, watermelons, etc. Also, 4-5 inches where the explosion of shrapnel is heaviest, will destroy lungs, heart and other organs. BTW, the author needs to be aware that the 9mm CD rds. go thru Level 3A body armor (now how's that for penetration???
wouldn't you want that for home defense??? I use liberty civil defense 70GR 10MM for home defense...The Black Talons were amazing rounds,,,,,,,, gonna subscribe to your channel.....keep up the good work!!
In my personal opinion Liberty civil defense is the best available projectile on the market. That bullet causes massive trauma even on fluffy people like yourself.
I'm sure it'll start getting adopted by agencies and departments then. Make sure to update me when that happens!
Dudes definitely an average Reddit enthusiast.. Buddy, it does what it’s designed to do. Dump all its energy on impact. Also, how deep do you prefer your 9mm to penetrate for self defense? 10” seems more than sufficient for 9mm.
I've barely used reddit, actually. And as for how much I prefer, I like 12-18", the same standard the FBI uses.
@@TheKalkara131 the only comment you replied too😂 you definitely use reddit
@@essayegg6990 sorry to break your egg, essay, but not really. And I've responded to a couple others, but I can't be bothered to respond to every single one. I only responded to you because I got a notification you just commented.
Worst review I've seen on this ammo.
Bro completely missed the mark
best round
Here is a practical test about the goal of this round. ruclips.net/video/nyLVu_3pOO4/видео.html
BLOWS RIGHT THROUGH LEVEL IIIA
I wouldn't want to get hit with a BB Gun, so my opinion doesn't mean much, but "A Kinetic Energy 500+ Ft-Lb Gapping 6" Explosion Inside A Human Body Might Tend To Make A Victim Shit In His Pants." Or "Spill His Guts In A Confession" given at "Last Rites!"
Oh absolutely, I recognize that in a lot of, maybe even most situations this will be enough. The mere presence of a firearm is often enough to stop a threat. But if that threat is truly determined to kill you, and due to whatever reason not feeling any pain, I want a load that will penetrate deep enough.
@@TheKalkara131 It penetrates certain lvl 3A vest. The FBI standard is flawed when using a round like this, its like comparing apples to oranges. Its funny seeing people confused how it only goes 11" in ballistic gel but goes through a level 3A vest.
See what it does in the pork but test.. other that have tested in more real life testing have different take on it
Using meat like that as a medium gives too many inconsistencies. If I hit a bone directly on, it'll cause it to act differently than if I just nick it. The angle I hit it at can greatly change how it performs. And then there's the fact that living human tissue is a bit different than a piece of pork, that's been dead who knows how long, I bought from the grocery store. There's a reason why departments and agencies use ballistics gel. It's a consistent medium that should give relatively similar resistance across different tests.
it will stop a person from doing Bodley damage to you... by killing quickly... it does this whiling also making my EDC super light which makes me carry it more... so really win win ...also do not have to worry about a lawsuit from the random joe behind the target.
Head shot will make your head explode
Get a clue. This round defeats Class IIIa body armor.
Get a clue. Figure out what armor ratings are.
Totally agree. Not deep enough especially if you add heavy clothing. Gimmick ammo
It goes through lvl 3a vest, the FBI test is a flawed way to test these rounds as it assumes its a traditional handgun round being used. Go watch Gun Gordon Ramsey aka Paul Harrel. Even he was impressed by these rounds.
Dude it’s on civil liberties site that it only gets 12” of penetration lol that’s literally the bare minimum of the fbi standards. So what if it can go through a vest? You can’t base it off of velocity alone. 50gr is too light and doesn’t carry enough energy period. Its shallow penetration isn’t enough to hit vital organs and will just end up in the skin, fat, muscle and bone before it could ever get deep enough to get the organs. Plus add on the clothing. My underwood defenders go 1475fps with 435 ftlbs of energy and get 18” of penetration and leave a large wound cavity. They also can’t get clogged by clothing or material. They can go through glass drywall etc and do their job but still not over penetrate. Sorry but 50gr is too light. It doesn’t penetrate far enough and the round breaks up into pieces. It’s not an effective rounds unless you at extremely close ranges and even still it’s not good. Ppl get shot 14 times with a 45 and live so your round with the density of a badminton shuttlecock 🏸 is hardly something to worry about