Magazine Capacity 5 vs 10 rds. Post - shoot discussion.
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- Опубликовано: 1 янв 2020
- In collaboration with the gents from Bloke On The Range we looked at the question of magazine capacity in Bolt-Action Service Rifles. The full shooting video is here:
• 10 Round vs 5 Round Ma...
When you've watched that, watch this one!
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It does somewhat resemble an episode of "Dad's Army".
High praise indeed Sir!
If you think that did you really ought to watch what we filmed the next day!
ruclips.net/video/FJh-wqXAM4s/видео.html
Don’t shoot at the plane, Captain Mainwaring will be quite cross. Stupid Boy!
While we're on the subject, is Mainwaring's Co. equipped with P14 or US M1917 rifles?
Donald Newcomb P14, Lewis machine gun, the bayonets and the Captain’s Webley. At least I think they referred to .303 on occasion.
Came over here after watching the video on blokes channel and just wanted to say, impressive performance out there and way to be willing to put yourself out on a timer and make an honest go of it. I also enjoyed the way you treated it as far as trying to think tactically. While most of your content appears to deviate substantially from this set of videos I look forward to seeing what content you produce in the future and looking over what you already have.
If you make it to one of the US "Brutality" Matches look me up and I'll buy you a pint.
Cheers
As soon as I can get my lungs working properly I'll maybe be able to get back up to standard! Thanks for your support.
Interesting discussion.
Love your videos man.
Nice discussion. Given the challenges of partial reloads, a US M1917 (.30-'06 Pattern 14) would be worth considering, since the conversion to the American cartridge gave it a 6rd capacity, one over the .303.
The shoot was really enjoyable to watch, since I am more interested in the military applications.
You have also given me the idea of reloading my M1A (civ M14) with stripper clips, to get a bit of a feel for running a bolt rifle.
A P14 run is likely soon, most M1917's in the UK have been heavily converted to target rifles but an original one might turn up.
The only advantage I know of to the five round magazine is it is easier to make and it is out-of-the-way and less likely to be damaged by soldiers. C&R Arsenal says in most countries testing there was an advantage but in a large volume of people it it didn’t matter enough.
I must look that up, thanks.
The Wirksworth Gunroom I believe it was in his video about German Mauser‘s. There’s so many and so much content I wish I could narrow it down more but that’s closest I can get you.
Need to do something about that bouzouki player.......
As an American, this discussion makes me wonder how an 8-round en bloc would compare.
Compared like-for-like, in a bolt action rifle, I suspect it would have lead to the same problems of going forward with only one or two rounds onboard. Of course, having it in a semi-auto changes the game so much that it would be hard to make a straightforward comparison. I think the key thing that we confirmed was that being able to top up without having to wait until you were out of ammunition was preferable to any other option. I don't think it matters so much whether your reloading device is 5 or 8 rounds. For example, a (theoretical) mechanism that allowed two 8 round en-bloc clipazines(!) to be loaded and another added as soon as the first one had been used would perform much the same as the ten round magazine with five round chargers. Sure, you could bang out 16 rounds in one string compared to 10 but in terms of keeping some in reserve it would be much the same.
As Neil says, with an en bloc you've got the all-or-nothing issue. With a semiauto you can always dump the last 2-3 in the direction of the enemy and then reload, cos faffing with taking out a partial clip and pocketing it will be slower than doing that. With a bolt action, it'd be a real faff.
I think the American sop on the m1 was if you engage a target or multiple targets you just fired till it went ping. Always a fresh clip then I guess. Cool video guys 👌
Of everything I've tried, 30 round p mags seem optimal. And you can reload them with 10 round strippers if you wish.
Nice but didn't exist in this time frame. That said, I'd agree and I have done.
What time do you call this? Lovely stuff all the same. 🇬🇧
So, crudely, one would load 10 and top up after 5, keeping 5 in hand? Not as a strict method but as a general principle. Well done. God to see it done in actual true real time and not a scripted and edited best.
I think as a general rule, yes. Of course, if you've fired two and you have the time than you can pull two rounds out of a charger and top up before moving on. Will all depend on the circumstances. If you are flat out keeping up the best rate of fire that you can, especially from a static position then topping up every five rounds, as you suggest, would be the best course of action. As you observe we did these once each with the exception of a run that Bloke did where we had a technical problem with the timer and had to re-do it. My last run, I had a couple of misses, had to change my point of aim and then got caught with a snaggy charger. It doesn't matter though because all these things illustrate the reality of the system as opposed to what can be achieved under ideal circumstances. Glad you enjoyed it.
I think as a general rule you'd simply slap in another charger at the first possible opportunity after having fired *at least* five, and I'm sure had it been me I'd have been topping off to 11 whenever possible.
How was ammo supplied to troops? In bandoleers of 70, like mauser?
Ammunition was generally packed in cotton bandoliers each having ten 5 round chargers. in five pockets. The bandoliers and chargers were considered disposable in war but were returned in training for re-use. I'll show one in a future video.
I have no doubt that the possibility to have 10 rounds in the rifle instead of 5 is an advantage. But timed runs on a range might not show it in that extend (At least Bloke was fastest on his second run .. the 5 round max run....) The thing with taking cover for the reload i fully understand, and support. There is something else that i missed to be talked about in the mil perspective: a soldier is seldom advancing or firing alone. So taking cover and reload doesn't mean nobody is returning fire. And thus i think you would always try to top up before advancing, or with an enBloc clip throw out whats in and put a new one in. Which brings me to Blokes 3rd run, where he (despite remarking that advancing with 1 round in the rifle is bad) advances with 0 rounds in the rifle. ;-) (I know the standing reload thing)
Was the original concept behind the Lee Enfield that soldiers would use spare magazines to reload the rifle? Why else fit it with a detachable box magazine? I guess in practice mass-producing perfectly interchangeable magazines was beyond the ability of British industry at the time.
James Paris Lee's original concept was for several magazines to be carried. When hte British Army introduced the Lee-Metford, two magazines were provided but the second magazines were soon withdrawn and from then on only a single magazine, which was normally left in the rifle was supplied. Whilst the early 8 round magazine of the Lee-Metford retained rounds, a Lee-Enfield ten round magazine doesn't retain rounds well when not on the rifle. Once in service the system worked well so there would have been no incentive to redesign it to have an integral ten round magazine, in addition, the stock would have to be very deep and heavy. British industry was more than capable of making the magazines. If you consider the period of the rifles we were using, British industry was making interchangeable magazines for BREN, STEN, Lewis, Vickers K, Lanchester, probably others.
I think it was well done, but there are some issues with the testing. For the record, I like the Lee-Enfield. I just shake my head that it wasn't chambered in something like 7mm Mauser. Anyway, the common complaint about the Lee-Enfield detachable magazine is that it is more fragile than a fixed 5rd protected in the stock and the stripper clip loading is not as reliable as the Mauser clips. This could have been a test to see if the Mauser superiority there is truth or myth. I think the proper test is two tests. On the first test, both rifles are empty. Shoot 30 rds at a target and see which goes faster. One 5rd clip at a time or 2x5rd clips (or as you call them, chargers). Then run it again, but start out with both rifles loaded. One with 5rds, the LE with 10 of course. On that one, I think the Lee-Enfield will win handily because it starts out with 10 rds and has to load one less charger.
Happy to try these options but it might take a while! We had been promised a K98k but it didn't turn up. We had 24 hours notice so did what we could, which, technically, was a reasonable assesment. It might seem simple to get every possible option together on the same day for the same tests but our experience has proved otherwise. The next likely run will be a P14. As to 7mm Lee Enfields, find some and I will be glad to test them! :) Oh, we call them chargers because in the British system that's what they are called. Happy to use the term "charging devices" to cover all langauges and customs. Thanks for your observations, they are on the list.
Wait what? A biplane flyover! How did you arrange that?
Just asked the Forward Air Controller for an air asset! ;)
Funny, limeys were still using airplanes with 2x as many wings, and bolt actions with 2x as many rounds in the magazine.......during wwii.
@@randymagnum143 Twice the fun.
@@randymagnum143. So were the US, like the UK, mainly as trainers like the Tiger Moth in the video. The UK had small numbers of biplane combat aircraft in service early in the war but only in specialised roles. The Swordfish carrier torpedo bomber is a good example: Despite being obsolescent it remained quite effective. If we look at more typical examples, in 1939, the UK had the Spitfire at a time when the most advanced US design was the Brewster Buffalo. The US had the P36 as its main fighter. US didn't have a fighter that could touch the Spitfire until the P51B in 1943, the one that was redesigned with the Rolls Royce engine... but you knew that and were just teasing! Glad you enjoyed the video, thanks for watching. :)
@@TheWirksworthGunroom the Finns used the buffalo to great effect against the bad guys! The p40 is underappreciated, and always had a favorable kill ratio. If i had to fly against the Luftwaffe, without question, i would want to fly the p47.
100 Round Drum is the best
It might have been interesting to compare the P14 as the 5 rounder rather than the kar98 - as that choice was a road almost taken bar the fact that "war were declared".
Agreed, however we didn't have one to hand at the time. However now I do so......
@@TheWirksworthGunroom That would be most excellent, as I have just refurbished one, and it shoots really well - unlike my SMLE which needs some "adjustment" to its stocking up. Anyhow, it would answer a "what if" question.
@@DominicAmann Yes, i think it will provide some answers. Ultimately, without a time machine and a large sample of new examples it's hard to provide concrete results as all these things have had such different lives. I don't think the P14 I now have will be indicative of a new one in terms of accuracy but then again the ergonomics haven't change so something can be learned.
@@TheWirksworthGunroom true enough. Luckily my P14 is shooting very well. 2 1/2" group at 100 yards yesterday after restocking it with a "DP" stock from e-bay!
@@DominicAmann The P14 was never a candidate to be adopted. And I think I've explained elsewhere why the P13 was never likely to be adopted, and WW1 proved to the establishment that the SMLE concept was superior (I'll do a vid on this part of the story at some point - it's practically a footnote in the Textbook of Small Arms 1929).
Anyone who's been on a 2way range will tell you 10 is better than 5 and 30 is better than 10.
Anyone who says or thinks otherwise is a fool & probably going to be dead on a 2way range.
Nice video, wearing wool in the heat ugg...that had to suck.
That was our view but it seemed it needed to be demonstrated for some folks. The mag capacity, not the wool!
8 round enblock autoloader > any bolt action.
Generally, yes but that wasn't the subject of the video. I'm sure the USMC in WW2 would agree with you though.
@@TheWirksworthGunroom i gave it a little more thought, and an m1 carbine and a Jeep with a radio to call in air support and artillery would make the most sense.
@@randymagnum143 Amen to that! (oh and logistics and industrial capacity wins wars! :)
Dare I mention that a STEN, a Universal Carrier and a Radio turned out to be quite effective too ? ;)
@@TheWirksworthGunroom I'll allow it, technically the sten fulfills its intended purpose(about like a rock will function as a hammer), and the bren carrier *WAS* powered by a good ol Merican V8, sooo.......😊
Speaking of Brens', i got a cherry Inglis high power that has Brit proofs and marking all over it. Absolutely beautiful.
A 10 is better because if you want you can just put 5 in it and voilà...5round Magazine lol
There is one advantage to 5 round - or rather a disadvantage to 10 round magazines. That is the magazine itself - it protrudes from the rifle. It can snag, and it is relatively delicate and was frequently the reason for depot repair. I would still personally go with 10, but just had to put in a genuine counter argument.
Can't say I've ever had a Lee-Enfield magazine snag on anything... It doesn't really protrude more than a trivial amount below the trigger guard, and I can't say that I've ever read complaints from anyone in any context that trigger guards snag on anything.
With a bolt action? Uh...no, that little 10 rnd mags won't snag on something that your hand isn't snagging on already.
@@xxxlonewolf49 I don't know what it snagged on or banged on, but according to history it was one of the more frequent repairs.
@@DominicAmann The magazine it self, or was ONLY the 10 round mag called out for repairs? Because unless it has a break down by 5 vs 10 rnd mags that needed repairs, I'm gona call a prospective B/S flag and just say it was ALL magazines being repaired since they were delicate and not as robust as we make them today.
Do you have a link to such information perhaps?
@@xxxlonewolf49 I'm not an authority on the subject myself, but you can call bs on the folks at C&Rsenal if you like. Hard to cut and paste links on my phone but you can look up c&Rsenal smle. I can't tell you how many minutes in.
As far as I can remember, it is simply a function of it being an external vs internal magazine, and made of soft metal. I would imagine the mosin was equally vulnerable.
I am not trying to knock the smle. It was probably the best Battle rifle of WWI. The 10 round capacity, loose tolerances and rear locking all made it more reliable in the filth of the trenches than other "better" rifles.
but the hedgehog can't be...............
Well now you have to do it with REAL rifles> P14 / P17, Kar98k, Mas36, Mosins (91/30, M44 and M39) and show real difference between 5 and 10 round mags.
Btw didn´t use bandoliers in WW2 for No4 as webbing?
And get real timer with buzzer.
I feel a long series of films coming along. If you'd like to contribute to the ammunition cost of doing this then please make a payment to the BlokeOnTheRange Patreon account or contact the Wirksworth Gunroom for bank transfer details. Your contribution will be a great help in our research and we will, of course, give you an online credit for your assistance. Thank you!
@@TheWirksworthGunroom Oh I `m already a patreon supporter...
You need a license to dance in public?!?
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