Cessationists & Charismatics Discuss The Gifts: Remnant & Cultish Crossover
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- Опубликовано: 3 апр 2022
- Cessationists & Charismatics Discuss The Gifts
In this episode of Remnant Radio, our buddies from the Cultish podcast are with us to discuss the cessationist perspective on the charismatic gifts. In this two-hour episode, we discuss the period of "the last days", the importance of the completed canon and the destruction of the temple in 70AD, along with the cessationist interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13. Hope you guys enjoy!
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I have never heard a conversation like this before. True brothers in the Lord having a humble, kind, respectful, rooted in the love of God discussion on their different beliefs. I so appreciate you doing this and am thankful for all of you.
Man! Great conversation. I watch Remnant and Cultish. such a great group of guys on opposite sides of the issue and flowing in the unity of Spirit. Awesome!
So I just witnessed to a Muslim woman and I said out God gives us prayer language and she said what is that. So I spoke in my prayer language and her eyes went wide and she stepped back. I got all excited and said do you know what I said. She said no. But you spoke in old Aramaic that is not spoken anymore. I told her I never learned it. She gave me her name and number, knowing I was a Christian and said call me.
This could've been titled "Cessationists Share a Lot of Stories Wherein They Experienced the Gifts"
Dude that's what I thought. I was so stunned... it's like they are afraid to admit to the continuationist viewpoint in fear of being lumped into what they see as heretical Christian camp by others.
Kinda surprising because aren't we supposed to fear what God thinks of us and not man?
Right? It’s funny… If they keep slipping around the creek bank they are liable defoliant… I pray that one day they wake up speaking in tongues. Lol
Sorry for the typo. They are liable to wake up one day speaking in tongues. Lol
@@BEABEREAN10 agreed.
Maybe you guys just misunderstand cessationism. Cessationism isn't that all things miraculous have ceased, but that the authority given to individuals to perform miracles (like Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and the Apostles) is a function given to particular people in history for particular purposes, and the purposes which they were given in the New Covenant era have been fulfiled.
The scripture supports the continuation of the gifts, there's a great amount of effort has to be employed to push a cessation viewpoint. All in all a great conversation and it was necessary.
Not really unless you think your as important as Jesus or the Apostles.
@@mrs.p6130 I'm not sure what's your point or argument against the comment
@@mrs.p6130 so are you saying the only people who got the gifts of the spirit are Jesus and the Apostles??😂
Phillips 4 daughters always is an unanswerable question that I have only heard Doug Wilson answer directly and his comment was shocking “if we found their prophesy it would be scripture to be in the Bible”
I loved listening to this discussion. Josh and Michael, wow! Y’all are making history by exemplifying how polite, yet direct continuationists can be with cessationists. I’m so thankful for The Remnant Radio!
This is exactly what Heiser is talking about when he points out the 'systems' that groups believe, and how they have to manipulate Scriptures to fit into their systems.
Heiser is himself a false teacher he believe in two Yahweh mmmmm
AMEN. CENSATIONIST ARE MASTERS IN DOING THAT. WOW
@@stevenpusateri5634 so you can manipulate venomous snake and drink poison whit out dying ? :)
@@michelhaineault6654
????? That's not continuism. That's not the gifts. That's not scripture. Can't use that false teaching to support Censationist
False teaching ??? LOL it's WRITTEN !!!! Mark16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
You have been seduced these gifts do not exist today even the gift of healing was no more as seen in James 5 and your gift of tongues is a counterfeit gift it was about new human tongues ...
I appreciate well-modeled conversations such as this. Wish we could see it more often in the body at large! Great collab, y'all!
Love the Cultish guys' demeanors. But it sure seems like their millennial and preterist lenses handcuff them from interpreting some fairly plain passages straightforwardly.
Yea totally agree. It’s like bro it’s not that hard just read the text
I’m a committed Partial Preterist and Postmillennialist like them, but I’m a continuationist. I tried my hardest to understand how eschatology could influence pneumatology *that* much, but I agree that even though there is much in the NT regarding 70AD, that they eisegete that into passages where it’s not really in view of the author, audience, or agenda of the passage.
I literally came to the comment section to say this. The most disappointing thing is reading scripture should drive interpretation, but their interpretation is driving how they read scripture. I find it really hard to arrive at that cessationist based eschatology if you just accept what the scriptures say first.
As a continuationist Postmil preterist, I feel like the attempt to make cessationism an eschatological issue was a big swing and miss.
Michaels first main point about the baptism of the holy spirit, and the gifts that are associated with it was enough to end the debate for me. Trying to separate the baptism of the spirit from power and super natural gifts doesnt fit scripture. But all you guys did a great godly job of communication. I was blessed to see that.
This honestly is one of my favorite episodes. I love the mutual love and charity expressed in this video. I will say this. If these guys are secessionists they are most definitely soft secessionists and I would not be at all surprised if they became continuationist. I am rooting for them to come over to our side! Lol
So glad this conversation happened! Blessed to see the mutual love and respect among brothers in Christ who agree wholeheartedly on the fundamentals yet disagree on tertiary issues. Wish we had more of this attitude among believers who are positioned to be influential. Glory be to God ! God bless you guys
Super excited for this episode! Love all these guys, and both these shows. :-)-
I love both of these channels! Such a happy collab for me!
Hi guys, well, I’m fans of both of your channels and I’ve been on both sides. I was raised as an atheist/Buddhist, came to know the Lord Jesus when I was 16 and went to a Baptist church and then went to a charismatic/Penecostal church when I was 19 and I’ve been Penecostal ever since. Looking forward to listening to this interview! 😃
I just want to say that after listening through the entire Remnant Radio series on responding to the Cessationist documentary, this conversation was very refreshing. Not only was it honoring on both sides (genuinely treating each other as brothers!!), but being face to face allowed these guys to directly respond to ACTUAL positions with ACTUAL scriptural arguments! I also thought were WAY more intellectually honest, and humbly able to say "it's a mystery to me," with the sense that "this is my best understanding at this point".
Also really respect and appreciate these guests' perspective and point of view coming from the ministry they do!
Man this is so good. I've been wrestling through trying to reconcile my new found reformed theology with my charismatic upbringing. From what I'm hearing from Andrew ams Jeremiah the cessationists view is "the gifts existed in the first century as a sign for the end of the judaic age and ceased at ad 70/when scripture was canonized, but 1 cor. 13 isn't about the cannon of scripture, also God still speaks to people in a revelatory way for the edification of the body. But the gifts have ceased." Seems incoherent to say the least.
That could be an understatement of Epic proportions.
I agree brother! Plus New Testament was only canonized around 395-397AD, so it’s strange to say it ceased in 70AD.
@@MartinsMusic I’m not agreeing with them but I believe their argument is more about when the canon was completed and not officially recognized
Though I'm not reformed, blogs and books from people like Sam Storms, Andrew Wilson at ThinkTheology, and others are great stuff.
As a postmilennial partial preterist but also a continuationist, this is not a great argument.
Wonderful episode. Great teaching from the Bible on the gifts
That "goes down in like a strange fire" joke was pretty great
Loved this collaboration! Love both shows!
I love remnant and cultish but I have to say...josh and Michael did completely dominate this debate... brutally one sided...but it's was cool for them to attempt to support their viewpoint..GOD BLESS
Really enjoyed this discussion. Quack quack.
Phenomenal discussion guys. Michael & Joshua held their own, great tag team. I know they are reluctant to call this a debate but imho they won it! Shoutout from the Uk 🇬🇧
The William Branham series on cultisch was so interesting! Thank you brothers.
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll have to check it out!
love this conversation!! are the great works of God in the Bible something that happened or something that happens?
Most excellent! The wind is at our backs, gents!
I love Cultish! To hangout with all these guys and talk Jesus would be amazing!
My 2 favorite channels coming together for the Body of Christ!
Yes yes yes this show was amazing!
What I hear from the Cessationist camp is a something I have often heard from Cultists and various Christian groups (Dispensationalists, Calvinist, etc.)--that is a System thinking pattern. They have a system which organises the Bible into a certain way of thinking. Every objection must be reconciled with that system. The system itself is never wrong. So, the 70 year mark is a major milestone in that system. Spiritual gifts exist up to that point. Nothing will sway the true believer in the system because the system is never wrong. They can't be persuaded because no amount of evidence can be put forth to shake the person from faith in that system. The implication is that no true conversation can be held because change cannot occur. What do you think?
That's a silly complaint. Obviously, God's revelation of himself is going to be organized, since God is a God of order. Everyone has a system, including you. Try to make an argument for Trinitarianism without a systemised theology. Usually people who think they have no traditions are the ones most enslaved to them.
However, my system is formulated by Scripture. I am a cessatinoist and Calvinist because of what the Scriptures clearly teach, not because I feel I need to fit them in. I feel confident that properly exegeted, there are not problem passages for either of these positions.
@@michaelmannucci8585But scripture doesn't clearly say the gifts have ceased. In not even one verse. That's the point. If you read it without an already formed opinion, you don't come to the conclusion that the gifts have ceased. But with a lot of cessationists one can observe they try to explain it with a system instead of with plain bible verses/passages. As above described and can be seen in the video. Maybe not you but a lot of other cessationists. I noticed it too.
@@nebucamv5524 "But scripture doesn't clearly say the gifts have ceased."
Can you show me one Scripture which clearly says God is Trinity?
I know you can't, because there is no one verse. The Trinity is a doctrine we come to by studying everything Scripture says about the nature of God, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, and harmonizing them together.
The fact that there is not *one verse* clearly saying God is Triune doesn't mean God is not Triune.
@@michaelmannucci8585that is not the same thing as the gift of the spirit which are talked about in the Corinthians and all over Acts and by Jesus himself. There’s more scriptural confirmation for continuation than cessation. You’re watching the right channel to show you what the Bible says and how to responsibly use the gifts according to scripture 🙏🏼 God bless.
@@Jamieforeals With respect, I don't think you understand this debate. I don't think you understand cessationism or have ever seriously considered it.
I can’t wait for this.
Apologia guys are all awesome and do great ministry for the kingdom. I've been a sub to them for awhile now. It is difficult to listen to them try and defend cessationism. The argument is so weak and makes you take scripture way out of context.
Same brother!
Show me one Scripture taken out of context to defend cessationism?
@@michaelmannucci8585 “For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.” -Many who hold to cessationism say that the perfect in this passage is referring to the Bible
@@Culture-and Well, in my experience, few hold to that position, myself included. And the two in this video specifically said they don't take this view. So since you were commenting related to _this video_ saying it "makes you take scripture way out of context", could you give an example from something they said that makes you take Scripture _way_ out of context?
@@michaelmannucci8585 My comment was from a year ago so I don’t remember the specifics of the video and don’t want to assume another scripture was mentioned. I can say generally that there aren’t any scriptures that support cessationism.
When your favorites collide!!
I know right?!
Awesome chat
Oh wow, thought the Cultish crew would have brought more to the table🤔
This as a compliment to their intellect of course I assume?.. as opposed jab at them for losing right??
Lol just kidding I think they did a pretty decent job, definitely not enough to convince me of their position tho..
THANK YOU DUDE 😎
Great discussion brothers! I wonder if they will ever change their mind in light of clear scriptures 🤔
If tongues were a sign for Jews, then why did Cornelius and his family begin to spontaneously speak in tongues as Peter preaches to them?
I believe Paul here is drawing on Isa 28:11 and Deut 28:49. I do agree that this sign is not a good one, but I certainly don’t believe either that it is a sign for the jews. First because it’s never mentioned nor even hinted at given it isn’t a passage concerning eschatology but rather Paul is giving pastoral care and direction to the church. Secondly, he says himself the reason he quotes these OT passages. Verse 23 starts with “therefor” meaning that Paul is now going to expound. And what does he say? That if everyone is speaking in tongues and there is no interpreter, then the unbeliever will believe they have gone mad, not the unbelieving Jew will understand that the temple will be destroyed in 70 AD. The context is orderly worship and functioning of the gifts. It has literally zero to do with eschatology or being a sign to the Jews.
First, I want to commend the "Cultish" guys for doing the work of the Kingdom on the ground out there in Utah - may God bless their labors and bring many into His household! Regarding their arguments on this particular matter, I have this concern: their arguments and scriptural reasoning seem like the kind that would allow for certain beliefs, but not the kind that could source those beliefs. In other words, I can see how they can justify their belief with scripture, but only if approaching scripture with that belief preexisting.
I loved this episode. As a studying charismatic I do have a few gripes with cultish’s position.
First, I don’t see Paul, who defended the promises of God to the Jewish nation foreseeing that the Jewish age would come away. The promises in Isaiah were that the nations were going to flock to the Jews to learn from their God.
Second, I also have a problem with implying that charismatic gifts happening in Corinth, which was pretty far away from Jerusalem, would show a coming destruction to Jerusalem. While there were indeed Jews in the Corinthians congregation, by large gentiles outnumbered them. I’m wondering that if we went to Corinth how many of the people there had regular contact with people in Jerusalem? Also, where else in 1 Corinthians is Jerusalem in mind?
Man made theories never line up!
"Man made theories"... you mean when Paul literally says tongues are a sign for unbelievers, and then quotes a judgement oracle against Israel? Trying to dispute that tongues are a judgement sign is to literally ignore what Paul plainly says. Also, considering continuationism didn't come around until the 1900's, I'd be careful throwing around terms like "Man made theories" lol
@@michaelmannucci8585That's not true. Through ALL periods of church history there is plenty of evidence that the gifts continued without interruption: read Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Origen, Hippolyt, Irenaeus, Augustin, Cyprian, Eusebius and many more.
On the contrary: it's very clear that cessationism started later, after the 4th century, when tradition started to rule over scripture. Like the Catholics still use to do til this day.
@@nebucamv5524 Sorry, but you are simply wrong. One off quotes by *very early* (aka, not far removed from the times of the Apostles) church fathers about miracles do not demonstrate that the administration of miraculous gifts continued to operate as *normative* in the church. And *all of history testifies to this fact*.
Random witnesses in history to a miracle that happened here or there is not relevant to the discussion about cessationism because cessationism doesn't deny that God still does miracles.
However, if you can show me from history that the gift of tongues, prophesy, healing, and miracles continued to operate *as normative* in the life of the church from the time of the Apostles, I would be all ears. But the fact of the matter is you cannot, even among churches today.
The Scriptures are clear that the Spirit administers the gifts *according to His will* (1 Corinthians 12:11). Not according to our will. Given this fact, the continuationist has to account for the fact that the vast majority of churches do not manifest any of these gifts. Are they not true Christians? Are they not true churches? Are they not filled with the Spirit?
Most charismatics would not go so far as to say that, but I have more respect for those that do as it's more consistent. Here is the logic:
P1: The Holy Spirit administers gifts according to His will in the church
P2: The Holy Spirit still administers miraculous gifts (tongues, prophesy, healing, miracles) along with non miraculous gifts (teaching, helps, discernment, etc).
P3: Most churches (Baptist, Presbyterian, Non-denom, etc) do not have any traces of miraculous giftings in their church
C: The Holy Spirit is not operating in those churches.
The gift of discerning of spirits works strong in my pastor's life - I should share a link to a video where he shares his experiences with this gift.
Please do.
Please do
I've also ordered and am reading TONGUES: BEYOND THE UPPER ROOM by Kenneth E. Hagin. This is a compilation of the many times that Hagin spoke on this topic. Some of these are on RUclips.
I have been listening to the teachings of Dr. James Bruggeman at Stone Kingdom Ministries in Asheville on the Tabernacle. That Tabernacle pattern shows spiritual growth. The Outer Court was the Passover and justification by faith. The Inner Court that deals with Sanctification. The Reformation dealt with the Outer Court. The coming of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements dealt more with Sanctification of the soul.
@Would you guys do a talk on preterism and Full Preterism ?
I really appreciate the graciousness you guys showed one another. I do wish you could have gotten a little deeper in some areas, though. Like, can you describe what repenting of false prophesying looks like? It's got to be more than "oops, sorry I was wrong this time", right? And tongues wasn't really mentioned much either. Maybe another episode would be helpful? God bless.
Hey guys great content! I just wanted to let you know this is like the 3rd video I’ve watched that has audio echo when someone is talking. I’m not sure if you’re aware, still great content tho! But wanted to share
Their view and interpretation of face to face is pretty out there
I wish they would have brought up the fact that not prophesy is considered on the level of scripture, even in the old testament. For example, Saul prophesied after he was annointed king, but we have no idea what he said. If all prophesy was equal to scripture then it would have been recorded.
I'm I the UK and about to go to bed 😩 will have to catch up tomorrow! I was in the UK Pentecostal/AoG movement for 16 years until I left during the first Lockdown and I had had reservations almost that entire time but believed there was something wrong with me. I'm now cautiously Cessationist
Ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit and see how that goes
@@paulc7190 I broke my heard for ten years praying this prayer. I had two women praying aggressively over me for hours and telling me to babble like a baby until I "got a word" and then sent me home to practice my "heavenly language" it definitely isn't for lack of desire or faith.
@Lisa Bond I would encourage you that God is a Giver of good gifts. It may very simply be that the idea of "filling" that those ladies wanted to affirm on you is not the filling that scripture talks about. Maybe you never spoke in tongues because it is not the gift that God has for you. But 1 Corinthians 12 says that there are a variety of gifts, given to each as God desires, to bless His people as we come together with our various gifts. I think we should absolutely be asking for more of these gifts in our lives, but we also have to realize the diversity that God has given to us. I hope that you won't throw out continuationism because of bad experience or other people's expectations. Remnant has a couple episodes with Jack Deere on Gifts and filling of the Spirit, worth a watch!
@@BondMrsBond
I'd note that many (most?) Charismatics, including all members of Remnant Radio and also myself; reject the idea that tongues is *the* physical evidence of spirit baptism that many AoG churches subscribe to.
Tongues is one gift of many and is not something that god gives to every believer.
Listen these cessationist are doing the Lords work and their ministry is evengalising to a tough population like those in the occult and in cults. Praise God for their lives and ministries
I think he accidentally prophesied that he would become a continuationist lol
This made me chuckle... 😂😂😂
I don't see anywhere in scripture where anyone accidentally prophecied. If you have any examples I would love to check them out!
@Joseph Harty My comment was made in jest, but we actually do have an example of an "accidental" prophecy in John 11:51. Caiaphas prophesies that Jesus will die for the nation, thinking that his death would lax the Roman scrutiny against the crowds Jesus was drawing. Instead, Jesus did die for the nation, not to save them from the Romans but to save them from perishing in their sins (not for the nation of Israel only, verse 52).
@@jeremyweimer8926 thank you! I will look into it! I guess it all depends on prespective. In God's prespective it's not by accident but by ours it could be.
Guys, Im here for the laugh, but you guys actually got serious. Mahnnnnn! Hahahaha
And I learned something new, thank you brothers 🙏🏼
After this video, I don't think there are true cessationists. They just don't realize they are operating in the gifts.
The strange part is they keep acting at if the Old covenant was still operating until 70AD because of the temple. Jesus, God the Son clearly said he is the temple and will raise it up.
This was great to watch. I think 1 Cor 13, is about fully knowing Jesus when we leave this world. We will see Him face to face. We will never fully know Him while here. Our minds and hearts will never fully understand His love for us until that day we cross over into heaven. 1 John 3:2, We shall fix our eyes on Him, and see Him as He is. ❤
Repentance and Mercy is what defines a believers life. If someone wrongly prophesies, they are to repent and be restored in Christ. There is such a blinding in thr cessationist camp
Restored in Christ? I don't see a biblical precedent for this. A false prophet the bible tells us should not be taken notice of - restoration doesn't come into it
This is great,
I needed this , healthy constructive biblical based discussion, because lately some of the outrageous stories being told and believed in the “Kansas city prophets” series has had a heavy and grieving effect on my spirit. Some of the affiliations Sam storms has with well documented heretics is disturbing and it’s now a concern that the Remnant team have embraced most of Sam storms crazy and mostly back to front incoherent rants.
This is one of the few credible continuationist sights that aren’t afraid to challenge or discuss topics which would be taboo for other venues, but please make discernment your most desired gift for this space, it’s certainly needed at the moment .
✌🏼
Would you guys be getting Lindsay Davis on at some point?
Finding and using tongues has been one of the most useful things I have ever found in the Christian life. I do it often every day. Rarely in a group assembly where someone else interprets. It's disappointing to me that more aren't up to speed on this.
NT Wright says he prays in tongues to help in his prayer life and in study of the scriptures.
It seems that when the Cultish guys are pushed to explain their pushback against the Remnant Radio guys’ position on Acts 21 all they can do is say “yeah I get that……” and then just repeat their beginning arguments over and over. It does not seem like they were actually listening to the point.
Cessationism is unbelief. Pure and simple.
Is it?
Have any of you ever experienced the gifts of the Holy Spirit .. Prophecy, Speaking in tongues, Healing experiences etc .. ? I’ve had some experiences & would love to share them with you. I put them in a PDF file so I can send them to you if you’re interested in reading them. Is there an email address I can send them to?
This might be a dumb question, but when Josh says "beatific vision" is that referring to the Be-attitudes? Or what does he mean by "beatific"?
It’s a theological term referring to when we will see God face to face referring to 1 Cor 13.
Had to look that up myself. It's a term invented by the Roman Catholic Church. I thought Remnant was a Protestant organization of Believers, guess not.
@@Used777_07 I'd have to look it up for myself to get a definition b/c I'm sure these don't subscribe to most Catholic doctrine.
@@CatalyticChristian Thanks man^^
Perhaps I am a simpleton... But since I see apostle Paul including himself as seeing the perfect come, it it looks a little impossible for him to be talking about scripture as the perfect. He had already passed away before the scriptures were completed.
I thought the same
I think that John 16 is vital on this topic. Jesus is getting ready to leave and the disciples are concerned with how they are going to get by without Him. He then explains that after He leaves the Father and Him the Son will provide a means by which they can continue to be even more closely connected then when He was physically with them, because He through Holy Spirit won't be just with them but in each of them. In other words, the order or modality of the Kingdom was shifting and Holy Spirit within would now be the means of operation thus making connection with Holy Spirit central. We need that more today that the first disciples did because that at least had the experience of having known Him in person. We continue to need Him teaching us. Someone in India or Africa or New York City definitely needs the help of the Holy Spirit to know and understand. The gifts of the Spirit are a part of that.
Beautiful conversation I think both sides shared they're believes truly I have been researching this topic thoroughly and I'm starting to lean soft continuationist. But why such a focused on tongues when it says these were the least of the gifts and I kinda lean Cessationist view point here that it is defined as speaking in another language not ecstatic speech and when you do goto a charismatic or Pentecostal denomination these are the gifts that seem to be most prominent. I understand there's 1 Corinthians 13 talking about a language of angels but this could also him being hyperbolic.
Can somebody explain how this is a "tertiary" issue? Both sides affirm they have the indwelling Spirit so if one says they don't have miraculous gifts, wouldn't that mean they don't have the indwelling Spirit?
If the Holy Spirit is present in a christian's life than the gifts of the Spirit is also presently active in the body of Christ today still. The gifts of the Spirit is also called "The manifestation of the Spirit", the Holy Spirit does and still manifest Himself in the form of these 9 'gifts'.
1 Cor. 12:7 But the MANIFESTATTION of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1 Cor 12:11 But one and the same Spirit WORKS all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
I'm curious what do cessationists say to the actual works of the gifts of the spirit of those walking in faith to perform what we are walking in? All the gifts happen today and yes some make it showmanship but most are actually the spirit of God working through us so how can that just be discredited and say it's not for today. I don't understand
What time stamp does it start talking about calvinism?
At the 1 second mark
😂
One question for my cessationist brothers would be. If the gifts did cease at a specific time in history after a fulfilled prophetic event then did those practicing the gifts lose their gifts? And where in church history do we see an event/commentary on the loss of the gifts of the Spirit?
"This whole place is very obscure: but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur but now no longer take place. And why do they not happen now? Why look now, the cause too of the obscurity hath produced us again another question: namely, why did they then happen, and now do so no more?"
John Chrysostom (AD347-407) (Homilies on First Corinthians, Homily XXIX, 1)
Is this sufficient proof of the existence of commentary in church history on these gifts?
@@elitecaosuk3141 huh, I’ll have to look into that
Are words of knowledge considered prophetic? I've always considered them as under their own type. Prophecy is different, and does not mean future-telling.
I've seen and operated in a few of the gifts. There's not alot of celebratory noise going on with it...just a quiet word to someone about what is going on in their lives.
Sometimes I wonder if cessationists have a picture in their minds of how they think it looks, versus what it's really like. One of them admitted he's had a word of knowledge for someone, but he didn't seem to recognize it.
I'm seeing alot of Scripture being squeezed to fit their ideas (ie, gifts ceasing at the destruction of the temple, etc) There's nothing in Scripture that even comes close to that.
Josh & Michael, you guys were so good at bringing up accurate passages!
I wish Keener was on board here too!
I was really going in with an open mind and seriously considered to adopt cessationists doctrine where I am in my current walk with the Lord, However, I am not convinced after listening how the cessationist come to their viewpoint. I don't think cessationists doctrine is a correct bible doctrine (IMHO). At one point in the conversation there was discussion on false prophets, referencing Deuteronomy, but the cessationist conversation started with new covenant vs. old covenant. It seems like a lot of pick and choose to support a doctrine rather than searching the scriptures to understand what the bible says. The turning point for me was when the discussion came up around the prophesy (or spirit prompts) in ACTS when the cessationist said the ones that were wrong are a false prophet according to DEUT, but then the COR scripture indicate the "others" (prophets) must evaluate what was said. The old testament also indicate one should stone false prophets, but I am sure cessationists would pick and choose around that one. I am probably more convinced now that cessationists is not interpreting scripture correctly after I heard how they use, and apply the scripture on this topic of the Holy Spirit gifts. I agree that charismatic or super charismatic is something one should test, like we should test all spirits. Just because there are spirits out there and it's super weird, does not mean we have to discard legitimate work of the Holy Spirit gifts in context of scripture. Thank you for this conversation and the cessationists who were willing to come to this conversation. I would have not reached a conclusion if I did not get this opportunity to listen to both sides discussing this topic.
Dr Craig Keener, who has been on RR quite a bit, has great things to say about the gifts are for now and until the Perfect Jesus comes!!!
Once a Believer begins to recognize Holy Spirit's voice &/or promptings, it's undeniable. I couldn't go to the ceasing of gifts system. Way too many instances have occurred in my life, even to a stranger nearly repeating back to me my own words, word by word, that I had spoken to my Yahweh in total privacy and prayer. And when the Lord answered my prayer's question thru this guy, I instantly knew the He hears us...me... And from that time, I've seen many things like that.
At that same time, I was also emotionally healed from some long term mental abuse by one of my parents...instantly! I've never been the same!
God is so gentle & kind to His wounded imagers.
@@shellyb.5224 Yes, the "ministry of the Holy Spirit" is really missing from many churches - the gifts of, and the anointing of the Holy Spirit is such a misunderstood and unknown ministry people thing its demonic. Guess it is safer to be in a comfort zone than be healed and delivered.
Preterist views simply MUST turn vast swaths of scripture into allegory for it to be truth. It's simply unreasonable to say 70 AD fulfilled all of the prophecies. I do appreciate this conversation greatly though as a former cessationist
It sounds like they are partial preterists, not full preterists.
To them; *some* prophecies were fulfilled at 70AD, but not *all* of them.
I guess this is a continuation of continuationist discussion lol
It's so shocking how much eisegesis they are engaging in. The cessationist stance kinda drives me crazy...as much as those of the hyper charismatic persuasion do. I wish we could make them see!
It’s all about balance.
Only God can open a man's eyes
Let's talk about it! I am a cessationist (ex-pentecostal) BECAUSE of the exegesis, and cannot stomach the eisegesis continuationists engage in to fit their modern views into the text.
Acts 21:9 ESV - He had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied.
These females were obviously not doing the same type of prophesy as Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc.
2 Tim 3:16....what scriptures was Paul speaking of? They only had the Old Testement when he wrote that. Do you think Paul was foretellng there would be a New Testament cannon of scriptures?
told through the Spirit is through the love they had for Paul they showed concern. Every time in the Spirit is mentioned, it is not always something miraculous as much as inspired by.. or in line with God's will according to the spirit they are in, through the Spirit is misunderstood in many cases by Charismatics. I believe this is why they need to be careful what they make claims to without God verifying it, clearly. Through the Spirit can be according to the Spirit leading you in wisdom or love or truth or understanding.. It is not necessarily prophetic or requires a spiritual language, or something miraculous. Gifts were given to verify the word, or for the need of communication, or knowledge of a missing new testament, etc...
As long as the message needs to be given, the gifts will need to be given by God. Today, it is the power of the sign gifts that can cause unbelievers to turn and believe.
Mark 16 says "..And these signs shall follow them that believe.."
It does not say it’s only believers in the early church, it says believers, period, will have these accompanying signs.
We are to expect this power to bring Him glory “throughout all generations, forever and ever!” (Ephesians 3:21).
Ephesians 6 urges us to put on the full armor of God. Verse 10 admonishes us to “be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.” Along with that, we are to “pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints” (verse 18). The way to be strong in the Lord is by putting on the whole armor of God and by praying in the Spirit.
When people find doctrinal errors or abuses in certain churches, they immediately conclude that these gifts could not have been real. They might as well conclude that the gifts at Corinth and in Galatia were not real either. We have not because we ask not just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not true. We are called to live by the Word of God not by our experiences.
I’ll never understand how so much preconceived pragmatism can be forced into a belief system founded on miracles. I think the Cessationists simply need stronger hermeneutics.
The question was raised by the pro- continuationist side whether Paul wrote 1 Cor 13 and 14 with the awareness that he was writing to complete the New Testament Canon? One thing to consider is that Paul was almost certainly not writing to defend or promote continuationism since it seems rather that he is addressing spiritual pride while also offering guidelines on how to properly apply the gifts. This would suggest that the debate cannot be settled based on these texts alone even if one could draw upon them to support continuationism. However, when Paul writes about some of the gifts ceasing "when the perfect comes" he could very well have had in the back of his mind that the church was then living in the interim period between Old Testament and New Testament age. This is heavily emphasized in his other Epistles not to mention that the book of Hebrews uses almost identical language to deal with the perfect coming when the Old (imperfect priesthood/law), passed away. The other Apostles are also well aware of this interim period even though they don't mention this explicitly. One indication that Paul isn't referring to the Final Second coming when he says "but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" is how he then speaks of the perfect as "becoming a man who puts away childish things." A child knows in part but a man who prioritizes love above all the gifts see's face to face. In 2 Corinthians 3: 7-17 Paul is describing the glory of Moses' face as something that is now done away. "For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ." When Paul says "tongues are for a sign to unbelievers" "as it is written," he is referencing Isaiah 28:8-14, where tongues are meant to be a sign to the wicked rulers of Jerusalem, i.e., "them that believe not." This is the core of cessationism even if cessationism isn't the term used here.
Does being used by the Spirit a single time to heal, prophecy or speak in tongues somehow make it not a gift?
Though I would lean more towards Remnant’s “full view of scripture”interpretation of prophesy and how false and wrong prophesies are to be dealt with in this new testament age, I can definitely agree that the cultish guy’s dealing with the Acts 2, “urged by the holy spirit” section as a totally viable interpretation. Though I don’t know the greek and how the translation my play a roll, I would give them a point on that one. That “speaking by the holy spirit” language could very well mean, in the same heart, meaning they exampled the fruits of love and kindness of the holy spirit towards Paul and that not to be considered prophesy. Seems acceptable but again, this verse in my opinion is even really a very definitive verse on the topic of, are all prophesies guaranteed to be delivered with complete infallibility in this new testament age with cannon scripture being complete and the role of prophesy being fundamentally different with the new testament changes. That being OT prophesy was meant majorly to be recorded as the word of God for all people, and for directing the path of Israel and NT being for personal intimate edification and encouragement of individual (or small groups) of believers similarly to healing. 1 Corinthians 14:3
As well as the case case that there are cases where prophesies that are given wrongly, or even, mistakenly, not even from the holy spirit in this new testament age church. And how the dealing with those cases are fundamentally different as the dealing with Deuteronomy 18 where they are put to death. In the same way that we don’t stone adulterers because Jesus made a way for their reconciliation if they would repent and turn. (As they talked about)
There's no such thing as false or wrong prophesy, it's an oxy-moron, and a modern invention by the Charismatic movement which only originated in the early 1900's. God cannot err. There's a reason false prophesy had the death penalty in the OT.
The Sid Roth religious men :)
Get and read 2000 YEARS OF CHARISMATIC CHRISTIANITY by Eddie. L. Hyatt. The gifts never ceased.
The cultish guys seem awesome. They clearly love the Lord and have a passion for the Word of God.
But I bet they are reconsidering their cessationist views after this lol.
NIV1984! Yes!
One potential problem I see with Josh and Michael's viewpoints has to do with how they always relate things to teaching or evangelism. So, when when Michael is encourging people to prophesy by saying "I sense that the Lord is saying this", I'm not sure the parallel holds up to teaching. Most people would not be comfortable with a pastor or teacher constantly saying "I feel like this is what the Bible says". Admittedly, there may be times it is acceptable as a one off thing, but I don't think they should go around teaching on scripture that they are unsure the meaning of.
Great show with some wonderful arguments on both sides. However, I must say the Cessationists seem to want to keep God in a box. Probably to keep the masses from being released like at IHOP and the Toronto revival. Release God's people.
It seems like the cultish guys kept leaving out "if they make you follow after other gods" in the Deuteronomy passage.
His bologna don't have a first name..... At least he gets bologna 😭😭😭
Bro Cultish blew my mind. If I was not a cesationist before I am closer now. It's a deeper belief and more complex then a simple "No more" answer. Its more if a "God's gift has been fully given through Christ and the word". Whoa... I'm still struggling with this topic but this has answered alot of questions for me. I will be subbing to Cultish Mahalo 🤙
Ok so the scripture 1 John 2:28 he is referring to But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie-just as it has taught you, abide in him. However since the New Testament had not be written he would have been referring to Old Testament. And in context it was regarding those who were trying to lead them astray. Holy Spirit will give you a confirmation or not if what someone is saying is not truth.
Are you even a member of apologia church if you don’t mention “category error”. 😂😂. Great conversation between these 4
Really appreciate the Apologia guys but this was a really disappointing attempt at establishing cessationism. As a post-millennial, there is absolutely nothing that would require thinking the gifts ceased at AD 70 in order to hold this eschatological view. Particularly I thought Andrew forced so many of his beliefs into the text. I don't think these guys have engaged with the best scholarship of the charismatic viewpoints or know how to defend their own views fully. The perfect of 1 Cor 13 being connected to James 1:25 is a clear example of a doctrine in search of a text. The perfect law of liberty is just the gospel, which at that time had come........past tense. In no way does it make sense for Paul to then say to born again believers in Corinth "but when the Gospel comes, all this stuff I have am teaching about in chapters 12-14 will be useless.......which is right now". They had already heard the Gospel and believed. If you want to go the other route and say it's the Bible or the entire counsel of God's word, then not only do you have to explain why no one held this view for the first 1900 years of the church, but it also then destroys the 70 AD argument he tried to use earlier as well as raises a handful of other objections and issues. James says in 1:22 to be doers of the word. Well if verse 25 and the perfect law of liberty is the entire counsel of God's word, then his readers would have read this and said "Oh, well we don't have it yet. That wont happen for hundreds of years. I guess we can't be doers of the word". I know it sounds silly, and I think it is. That's not at all what James is talking about. This isn't even getting into how they would go about saying these "sign" gifts ceased but the others like pastors and teachers and evangelists and giving and administration and faith continue.
They also never presented a standard for differentiating what parts of the Joel 2 are still for today and which are not other than special pleading/begging the question.
I'm pretty sure they were also saying that scripture had been completed by 70 AD.
I disagree, but that's partially because I think that revelation was written post-70 AD which doesn't work with their partial preterist viewpoint.
I would say James would not have to wait hundreds of years for the complete scripture to come, although I agree that he wasn't talking about that.
I agree.
Examples of prophecy in OT and NT that were inaccurate because they missed the interpretation or application of the correct revelation:
OT- Jonah prophesies the destruction of Nineveh… But he forgets the important point of application “unless you repent“. Therefore his prophecy did not come to pass
NT- In Acts 21, Agabus prophesies that the Jews will bind Paul. Acts 22, the Romans, not the Jews bind Paul. It seems that Agabus saw (through a vision, dream etc) Paul’s conflict with the Jews and him being bound. He missed the interpretation and assumed that the Jews were the ones who bound him.
Also, Deuteronomy 13 and 18 do not tell you to stone someone for missing a prophecy. They tell you that even if someone gets their prophecy correct, and then call you to run after other gods - then you stone him! They also tell you that if someone is speaking presumptuously, or from themselves rather than from God, you do not listen to them because God is not speaking through them.
So are cessationists 'continuationists' about the FRUIT of the Spirit, but 'cessationist' about the gifts of the Spirit? Is that about fear? Fruit less controversial or challenging than gifts? How can we justify a pick and mix approach?? It's like fixating on 'God is love' and glossing over 'God is holy'. Inconveniently for us, we can't do that 😉
Cessastionists might was well say salvation (a gift) also ceased. Takes just as much faith to believe in God as it does healing, prophesy etc.
I think when the Remnant Radio gentleman said they did not encourage their people to say "thus saith the Lord" and be careful how they prophesized showed to me that they were not confident in prophecizing as the Biblical prophets were. The OT prophets spoke with confidence and everyone knew it was from God. There was no double-guessing and generally, the news was not good for Israel.
Because under new covenant. Everyone can get the gift of prophesy. And it’s guidelines is that all words should be tested and judged by others.
Unfortunately sometimes it doesn’t happen.
@@jonycruz2430 So quite different than the old testament prophets then?
@@kerisutt7579 Yeah because the prophets of old spoke on behalf of the Holy Spirit. Back then they didnt have the new testament letters or even the indwelling of the holy spirts. Because now have the indwelling everyone can desire and receive the gift of prophecy but words must be tested. Look up Agabus the New Testament prophet in the book of acts and look at prophecy outlines in thessiloians and 1 corithin 12-14
@@jonycruz2430 Not trying to make an argument, just trying to figure things out. Why do you think that modern-day prophets are not as accurate as of the old testament prophets and tend to get things wrong more often?
@@kerisutt7579 Because now we prophesy in part. This is why 2 prophets are to be present when the other prophesy to test the words. In the Old Testament there was none of this. It was pretty much if they got it wrong they were stoned. Look up Agabus prophecy to the Apostle Paul. He prophesied to Paul about the way he would be captured. He was 1/2 right, or in other words 1/2 wrong. The reference is in the book of Acts, but google "Was Agabus wrong"
I feel like they needed to define their terms more clearly to make sure they were debating the same things. "What is prophecy?" seems to be a point of contention. They sort of agreed at one point, about it being God's mind through human words or something, but it wasn't very practical. If the Holy Spirit leads you or gives you information, gives you warning, gives you an encouragement, gives you some truth -- are we comfortable calling that prophecy? I'm not sure if the Cultish guys have a biblical definition for those functions of the Holy Spirit, but the biblical definition that fits those functions and activities (prophecy, words of knowledge, etc) -- they don't want to apply it.
Deuteronomy 18 is the real deal, God smacked me with that as a teenager to get me out of the occult. But. . .He continued speaking to me from that point on. And He speaks to the Cultish guys too, and I'm pretty willing to bet they share the things they feel God is saying, however careful they are with it. The one thing I like about the presence of brothers and sisters with their view is it forces charismatics to clearly articulate and understand what they believe, why, and what the checks and balances need to be. Great episode!
Ephesians 4:12 tells us the gifts of the Spirit are meant to prepare us for works of service so the Church can be built up. Each of us filled with God's Spirit has a measure of this grace to reveal God's mercy and love for His people and show that the Kingdom of God is at hand. Certain communities say that we should no longer acknowledge the gifts, however nowhere in scripture is it indicated that the Kingdom will start out with power and great growth, but will than decrease and come to a stop.
Romans 11:29 teaches that “God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable/without repentance,” meaning God does not change His mind, first giving them and then taking them back.
1 Corinthians 1:7 says, “Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.” Since Paul said the Christians were not to lack “any” gift, this is clear scriptural evidence for believing in the continuation of the gifts until Jesus comes again.
1 Corinthians 13:9-10 says, "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect [τέλειον] is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."
(tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect [τέλειον] man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"
Ephesians 4:13
If we all operated in the gifts in a genuine way, the Church would be in such a better state. And, the anointing the breaks the yokes of bondage - missing in many churches.
@@paulc7190 couldn't agree more!!! It seriously grieves my spirit so much when I hear God's Word mishandled in this way! Many have a form of Godliness, but deny its power