Are tongues, prophecy and charismatic gifts for today? // Andrew Wilson vs Simon Arscott
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2025
- Justin hosts a debate between a Charismatic and Cessationist Christian.
Church leader and theologian Andrew Wilson, author of the new book ‘Spirit and Sacrament: An invitation to Eucharismatic worship’, says that the gifts of tongues, healing and prophecy are still active in the church.
Simon Arscott is minister of All Nations Presbyterian church in Ilford. As a cessationist he believes that the charismatic gifts ceased to operate after the closure of the New Testament canon and the life of the early church.
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14:20 “It’s always controlled, mastered, restricted to what has been revealed in Jesus Christ. There isn’t the extra. There’s no new revelation.“ “His ministry is to apply redemption, not to add extra knowledge that we lack.” So well said.
I haven't heard a convincing argument as to why I should believe that those spiritual gifts have ceased. I hear people giving reasons, but they don't seem to be scriptural. Reading the Bible, the most obvious reading is to think that we're receiving instructions for ourselves, too. I don't see it being drummed into the churches that in a few years the gifts are going to end. Instead, I see advice on using them well, and an urging to us to hunger for them.
I think the idea is the the Apostles had the gifts and could pass them on to other believers. But only Apostles can pass the gifts. So once the Apostles died off those still having the gifts can not pass them. Therefore the gifts died off. Read Acts. So even though Paul is instructing the believers then, he is not instructing us now. Scholars would call these scriptures to be “descriptive” not “prescriptive”.
This was great. They were respectful and really tried to understand each other's position.
Of course they were civilized. They're English gentlemen, not Americans.
@@nuttysquirrel8816 regardless, I'm just thankful they were respectful.
What is wonderful is the respect and civility everyone displays while having a conversation on a controversial topic in Christianity. Both make good points and there needs to be balance in this area.
Tip: change the playback speed to 0.75 so you stand a chance of understanding what they are saying
I am a foreign speaker of English and have no difficulty comprehending. Perhaps the difficulty may be linked to the knowledge of the subject and concentration.
@@Spark_Iskra_z_Polski Ooh spiky!
@@danielorourke2677 Nope. Just explaining. Some topics are hard to understand when we have not acquired the jargon related to it. Just stating the obvious, I guess. I eg have difficulty understanding songs because I am poor at slang :)
@Ikke: Spot on! I just got here after an NT Wright interview where I had set the speed to 1.25 and when I started listening to these guys I was certain RUclips memorized the settings. I was surprised to see it didn't...
Great tip, thanks.
Really respectful and helpful discussion thank you both. The irony of cessation of the gifts and the sufficiency of scripture as described here in the defence of cessationism is the fact that scripture nowhere says the gifts have ceased or that they should cease. I.e if the bible is all we need for life and godliness and it tells us to desire and practice these things then we should be doing that.
I think that in response to Simon’s fear of Andrew and other continuationists not seeing the scripture as sufficient because of the “extras” I would have to ask, “Why is that base of logic not applied to the rest of life?” I don’t mean this in a sarcastic manor but genuinely. We would all affirm that water is the the only sufficient beverage for life. In fact it is the thing we look for to define whether life *could* exist somewhere. The same would be of the revelation of God fully made know by Jesus and transcribed in the full canon of Scriptures. This is the fully sufficient revelation of God. But I also drink coffee. My partaking of other beverages does not communicate that I believe water to be insufficient. I think the same logical inconsistency exists in his approach to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Very well put, I have the same objection to that line of cessationist reasoning, I find it amazingly weak.
I like the metaphor you gave 😁
@@02122_ And who likes weak coffee?
Doesn't scripture teach that speaking in tongues in public only occur IF there is a "translator" assisting, and given the speaker uses Unlearned Words, only That (translator) understands Both languages, unless a "native speaker" is also present to vouch for veracity, are others to merely believe, when most events are "all welcome" and recieve an Interpreted Message lovingly without inquiry when Divinity is presumed to be "speaking?" Learning To Walk, in Canada ..
Yes, I think Simon should have said the problem is with sola scriptura rather than "sufficiency" of Scripture.
The real problem is believing that prophecy is authoritative while still holding to the Bible as the sole infallible rule for faith and practice. If a prophet comes up to you and orders you in the name of the Lord to take some course of action that is nowhere commanded in Scripture, then this would be an extra-Biblical source of authoritative (even inerrant) teaching. A prophecy is an intelligible statement (whether of theological knowledge or of divine command) given directly from God and is therefore a form of specific revelation that can rightly be called the word of God. If the word of God can be given as something totally distinct from Scripture, how could Scripture be seen as the only infallible source of theological and moral teaching?
I think the commitment to sola scriptura is really the driving force behind the cessationist argument. Protestant continuationists dodge this problem by attempting to put forward a weaker view of prophecy than is biblically warranted, saying that prophecies can contain errors and mistakes but are still divinely given to the prophet as a special message.
Enjoyed this - even just for the attempts to define prophecy & tongues in the first 40 minutes. If the body cannot agree on definitions and purpose then resolving this will always be a struggle.
Simons talk about not needing "extras", just the Bible, saddens me so much.
We want the gifts because they are in the Bible, not because we think it´s not enough. If you want to follow the Bible, the gifts are a part of it.
He argues that the gifts detract from Christ, but if that was true, they would have done so in the early church as well. So if he is right the gifts of the Holy Spirit have never been a good thing.
The gifts were used by the apostles because they needed signs to show they were speaking the truth of Jesus and that he was in fact the Son of God. Jews at the time were bound by the law, and then here were these people saying that the law isn’t valid anymore and that it’s a matter of the heart and salvation through Jesus. If it wasn’t for the gifts, they wouldn’t have been believed. Now we have the bible, and scripture is enough. Take the gift of tongues for example, the apostles used the gift of tongues to preach the gospel to people with differing languages. The use of tongues in the modern church does not reflect that, which would show that the tongues we see in the modern charismatic church is not the tongues in the bible. And if it is not verified in the bible, can it be considered a gift from God?
@The Worship Lounge
"Now we have the bible, and scripture is enough."
And the Bible teaches us to seek the gifts, so why are you trying to make me choose between them? If you believe the Bible, you should believe in the gifts.
As for the gift of tongues, if you read 1 cor 14 it is clearly talking about a gift of tongues noone understands, a prayerlanguage. Paul says he uses this more than anyone.
The second use, the one you speak about, with known languages, also happens in places where there´s an openness to the gifts.
@@JonWickensMusic The law was not invalidated but fulfilled,it is not signs that convinces jews(and Gentiles) to believe, jesus did miracles yet they crucified him. Apostle paul says in 1Cor 1:22 that jews demand miracles and then don't say we show it to them but preach jesus crucified. Also the tounges are not always for preaching the Gospel, that is the need for interpretors to edify the church. The guys praying in tounges in corinth were not preaching the gospel ,they were in the church among brethren. So.........God bless you.
You totally misunderstand.
@@richardschmidt1989 What do you mean?
This show is unbelievably awesome.
If im honest when ive been to a church and nearly everyone starts talking in tongues,it makes me feel so uncomfortable,and dont go back.
eddiemorris17
Just join in. Say....” she came in a Honda” real fast a few times and then switch to other vehicles. It’s fun!
Me2 this is actually what keeps me away from church, everybody can speak tongues nowadays atleast thats what they think...
@@whoknowsit581 im without a church at the moment,but i cannot handle it when everyone is talking like that,i start to sweat and just feel like walking out.Hopefully i will find one soon.
That's because that's an incorrect use of tongues to have everyone doing so in utter chaos. Proper tongues are spoken and interpreted, decently and in order as Apostle Paul says.
Exactly. “Tongues” ends up being an obstacle to many people / Christians. When actual tongues were spoken in scripture, they were actual intelligible language - and drew new believers TO the Church. .
This new kind of tongues is an obstacle to belief, doesn’t seem like a “gift”.
Great discussion . I fully agree with Andrew. Though, given hyper charismatic excesses can understand why people are put off.
I tend to agree more with Andrew having myself been connected with both sides of the debate over the years. Of course Simon Arscott makes valid points. Obviously this is just over an hour long programme, but I feel for such a serious subject with two apparent opposing viewpoints on the charismata, it has come over rather rushed and it really deserves more careful consideration and a longer time to deal properly with all the issues discussed. A good debate, but I found it rather frustrating for the above reasons. Another difficulty I have is this, when you do have questions from what ever side of this debate one is on, those on the opposing side have the tendency, in my experience, to attempt to silence you rather than to work the issue through with you, whatever that issue happens to be. I've come across this in churches that are 'non charismatic' and those that are.
Yes, I also agree with the fact those who oppose the current use of the gifts of the Spirit use tactics to try to silence. Not allowing charismatics to define what they believe but instead assuming false positions and attacking those.
Indeed it borders on being a waste of time if it’s only ever the inevitable stale-mate that is reached
A nice discussion this. I've always considered myself open to continued promptings from God. I thought Andrew answered wrongly (I think he might have felt cornered and answered out of reflex) when he said Agabus could have been in error, and agree with Simon that a prompting from God would be infallible and worthy of obligitory obedience. IF the word is from God, then yes oneshould obey. But people do disobey God's revelaed word from scripture all the time, too. Sorry, just thinking out loud.
Productive discussion. Well thought out points and listened and respected one another.
I can only see two possible conclusions:
1. The gifts are for today - we are to pursue them in the way the scriptures describe.
2. The gifts have ceased - we must only seek God's will from the scriptures.
As discussed in the debate: if the gifts are for today then it's Biblically inconsistent not to pursue them.
If the gifts are not for today then how do we define "false prophecy" (which Simon rejects) as opposed to "promptings" (which Simon apparently embraces)?
It appears that the cessationist has the burden of proof simply because the NT itself is clear that ordinary Christians like us did pursue the gifts and provides no evidence to suggest that they have ceased in our day.
Then why did Paul tell Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach if he still had the gift of healing?
How are you gonna pursue the gifts ??
@@loganvaughn3920 Maybe it was just good for him. Maybe because it didn't need a miracle, just some practical action or medicine. Maybe healing him that way wasn't God's plan.
@@tommarshall7247 that makes absolutely no sense at all. If the gift of healing was for today then where were all of these “healers” during covid? Also the same verses that discuss healing an individual also talk about raising people from the dead and everyone who claims to have this gift never wants to go to a graveyard to test that gift because they would be found out to be a liar. Only God can do these things. The gifts of speaking in tongues (known languages not gibberish) is over.
The “tongues” in the Pentecostal and charismatic movements ends up being an obstacle to many people / Christians.
In scripture, when tongues were spoken, they were actual intelligible languages - and tongues were the Holy Spirit’s means to draw new believers TO the Church. .
This new kind of “tongues” is often an obstacle to belief.
Doesn’t seem like a “gift”. At least, not a gift from the Holy Spirit. So what’s the source?
Not always true. Certainly at Pentecost the tongues were human languages or at least heard as such. I've known of people whose "tongue" was a human language and they've then learnt that language to understand what they are saying. But in most cases the "tongue" is not a earthly one and Paul writes that an interpretation should be presented so that the "tongue" can be of benefit. Maybe exceptions would be times of corporate sung or spoken "tongues" where the focus really is on allowing the Holy Spirit to pray through us without using our intellect.
@Tom Bladecki Only one God but 3 persons, it's called the Trinity and denial of the Trinity is a clear mark of cult and heresy.
@@RichardBragg Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that👉 believe NOT: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1 Corinthians 14:22 KJV
St. Paul discussed more than one kind of gift of tongues ("diverse tongues" 1 Cor. 12:10) and referring to the "the tongues of men and angels". The use of the gift of tongues is not new at all, as I've discussed above (1 Cor. 13:1). As for the obstacle presented to those who are unfamiliar with the gifts of the Spirit, St. Paul speaks about this in 1 Cor. 14:1-15, that the church should not speak out loud in tongues in a congregation where the unbeliever or untutored might be present. This should be private, or done only among those who are familiar with the Spirit's gifts. Otherwise, he said, they'll think you're mad!
....He that speaks in tongues soeaks NOT unto man, but unto God..for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM...
It that sentance we see ONE of the forms of the diversity of tongues.
.
The Spirit manifests in people in two ways. By manifesting the Fruit of the Spirit by changing people to be like Jesus. This is maturity of Faith. The Spirit also gifts of the Gifts of the Spirit, regardless of the believers level of maturity in Faith. The problem us people have is, some of us focus solely on the Fruit of the Spirit and others focus solely on Gifts of the Spirit, when the Lords desire is that all of us should fully manifest the Fruit of the Spirit AND partake in ALL the Gifts His Spirit has to offer.
This is very good...I'm what may be called charismatic but I grew up as a cessationist and later because of the way my life played out and the experiences I had became charismatic...once you've experienced the supernatural you can't just say "oh nevermind that didn't happen"... cessationists are just those who haven't came into PERSONAL contact with the supernatural working of the Holy Spirit (not just interpretation of what the Bible says but actual manifestation of the supernatural)...when I got Baptism with the Holy Spirit I physically felt the Holy Spirit enter me...it wasn't like a thought in my head or something like "I just asked Jesus into my heart so now the Holy Spirit is automatically in me in His Fullness"...that is the distinction between a cessationist and a continuationist
Can you prove any of your gifts. You can't. Jesus and his disciples did.
@@tonyii3818 he should show his gift to you like he cyclops, or wolverine. Don't be carnal in your argument. These gifts were shown when the occasion arose, meaning it can only be manifest when the spirit will. Like Jesus could not do wonders on the cross even after he was mocked by the thief doesn't disprove that he did miracles prior to that time. But if we are vessels we must remains as vessels used utensils not autonomous.
@@tayoadejuwon9169 Jesus could do miracles on the cross. He chose not to. What the heck?
@@tonyii3818 When I said he couldn't I do not mean he did not have the ability. what I am saying is that despite having the ability his gifts have to be used according to the will of the Father. "I only do what I see my father do". so even though he had the ability he could not perform a miracle on the cross.
A christian with gifts is expected to rely heavily on the will of the father. so if he is not moved of the father he cannot use his gifts. Hence why I said we are not talking about cyclops and wolverine here
I thought the gifts were to edify the church. When I see charismatics, I find them edifying themselves. Also, I do think the supernatural is mysterious therefore people tend to seek it. I think there is a danger that can come from pursuing the supernatural vs the bible.
A key biblical idea for me for understanding this topic is that the gifts testify of Jesus - "and God confirmed the message by giving signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit whenever he chose" Hebrews 2:4, also Acts 2:22. So these things need to be practiced for that reason. Its firstly in my mind for evangelism and second for encouragement of the church. I love apologetics and speaking truth about Jesus, but what about showing/experiencing Jesus? If Paul the apostle didnt rely simply on speech/wisdom but also on signs/miracles for the purpose of effective evangelism (1cor. 2:4, Romans 15:19) why should I not need to do the same? Has the receptivity of the Jew and gentile toward the gospel changed from them to now? The apostles declared that Jesus is God and so healing the sick for example testified to that. We still try to convince people that Jesus IS God (not was) and so shouldn't the same demonstration still be valid for us today? If Paul didn't think his wisdom was solely sufficient for evangelism why would I think the I'm more capable?
You're misinterpreting Acts 2:22 , It was his miracles which testified of him, not all.
And Miracles have always been done for the main purpose of spreading the message. Read Romans 15:20. Miracles are not as important as preaching the word.
I personally would like to believe these gifts, (tongues, prophecy, healing etc) are for today but the problem is that I have simply never seen anything that cannot be faked. Not that I think all are faking it, many I think are just being drawn into a kind of psychological phenomena that happens when in crowds of like minds, especially with the use of music, lighting etc to induce these experiences. Tbh I was trying to word that without saying the words “mass hysteria” as I know that would upset some.
Hello Tarka, I've always been suspicious of such things and went to various services where I was very unconvinced about what were claimed to be tongues and various dramatic manifestations. I've also seen leaders misusing these kinds of things, turning them into performances, etc. I've walked out of several events. I've often sat down to be prayed for if I felt the guys wanted to tick the box of someone spread out on the floor. 🙃
However, I've found them at work in my life- firstly in what I'd call remarkable provision, and answer to unremarkable prayer. In my first year away at uni, I was a new Christian. I realised I did not have an item that I very much needed, and prayed for it- then laughed because it was such a stupid prayer, and yet, for once, it was minus the get-out clauses. It was as though I had gone to the postbox and posted it, instead of putiing it in but not actually letting go. There was a knock at the door, and my landlord yelled up the stairs for me. I was still in bed. This was minutes or even seconds later. A parcel, with the item. I had told nobody, and, if you think of the timing of its arrival, with it being posted days before, and bought and wrapped maybe days before that...a prayerful old lady is always a powerful creature. 🙂 There were many occasions of God answering prayer. Most spectacular was when this guy loudly claiming to be a Christian was- we felt- really damaging God's work at college, so our tiny CU got together to pray and fast about this. None of us had ever done that before. Well, we did that, and we never saw him again. We learnt, later on, that he'd been arrested the next day. And God did lots of special things.
And then I was working in a kitchen in Devon and we made too much food. The recipes cut it very fine. There was never any extra. It often looked pretty meagre. But here we were, with an extra potful, and all the tables with plenty of food. My fellow cook, a Finnish girl, was worried we had cooked too much, but I had worked there for a year. I had come to expect God to do things. Don't worry, I said, God knows. It wasn't boasting. It was just everyday life- relying on God. Taking a pot of the casserole out to the dining room, a guy carrying it tripped, spilt it all and was in a panic. Oh don't worry, we said. We have an entire full potful. This happened on two occasions. I don't remember who my fellow cook was the other time, but I know the two different people who dropped everything, an Ethiopean guy and an Englishman. God provided, and I went out and cleared stew up from where it had spattered. I could recount many similar experiences. Not calling them miracles, but I do see them as God being at work.
But a striking moment came when, probably late from cooking Sunday lunch, I sat outside the main room for the Sunday service and they had a thing where they asked us to get into pairs and listen and ask God if there was anything He might want to say to the other person. Also sitting outside was an older lady I had never met, so we sat down and asked God to do that, if He wanted to. Now, I prayed. I didn't want to be presumptious, but I do think that God can speak through us if He wants to. He had no problem using a donkey, and although I might not have its better characteristics, I think He might even be able to use me. But I was inclined not to share what I saw, because it sounded rubbish, corny, and just silly. But I told her, anyway. I saw an old celtic stone cross on a misty hillside and the words Wild Goose came into my mind. I said well, I don't know if this is something from God or not, but here it is anyway, or something like that. She was lost for words initially. It turned out that she was off to Northumberland in a few days to join a celtic Christian community, and that the ancient celts often spoke of the Holy Spirit as a wild goose. I hadn't known that. I hate showmanship and glitz and all that, but I think God speaks, moves, is living and active, etc. But I'm more confident when that happens off-stage. What did that do for her? Hmm. I think it was like a hug from God. It was Him saying to her that He knew it all, that He was in it, that He would be with her. Why like that, rather than a Bible verse? I don't know. I'll just have to trust God on that. But that experience also spoke to me. Whoah, God still can use me, despite all the weaknesses I see in myself. Of course, you don't know me, so it could all be fake. I still have the book and the letter she sent me, though. 🙂 I think the best thing is to read the Bible seeking to know God more, and pursue Him, not those gifts. And then, if he wants to use you to bless someone that's exciting and humbling. I'd like to say much more, but I'd better stop! Peace be with you! 🙂
@@tommarshall7247 I really don’t think you are “faking” these experiences at all and maybe I should have been clearer about how I believe God is working today through the Holy Spirit.
With regards to healing for example, I absolutely believe that God heals us, but he does so using our own bodies and minds, as well as medicine, be it modern or natural medicine. He can bring healing in situations that seem hopeless and a complete recovery is looked on as almost miraculous, I believe it. But a certified para or quadriplegic getting up and walking, or a 100% certified blind person seeing? We don’t see that.
Tongues? Where do we start? Almost ALWAYS it’s not interpreted, rarely limited to 2 or 3 and frequently accompanied by behaviour that does not mimic the “fruits pf the spirit” laid out in the NT. Far more distressing than that though is the obvious faking. People who are native speakers of the same language have the same repeating pattern of sounds that they intersperse their gibberish with. It’s exactly what you would expect if they were faking it.
The prophecy is usually banal, often I’ve seen people “prophesying” who are employing tactics used by cold readers and as I mentioned in my original post, the music is integral to manipulating the mood of the congregation.
If it is a wicked generation that seeks signs and wonders then surely we are it with “glory clouds” and anointed oil magically dripping onto worshippers (or leaking from bibles,) “precious” gems that supposedly manifest out of thin air and a dozen other theatrical miracles that the Spirit is supposedly working.
The Holy Spirit is working today of that I am sure, he convicts me and puts it in my mind to do the things I would not do without his urging. He strengthens me in my resolve and softens my hardened heart. I know he guides me and tries to steer me away from error.
I have no doubt he was behind the events you describe, God makes all things work to his ends.
I really don’t want to upset anyone who believes in the continuation of the miraculous gifts, as I’ve said, I would like to myself but just haven’t seen any evidence. Thankyou for sharing your experiences, God Bless you!
Good convo! Was a bit frustrated that the pastor on the right kept interrupting the pastor on the left and not letting him finish his thoughts.
I believe the verse reads “pursue love and desire the spiritual gifts” not “ desire love and pursue spiritual gifts”
I turned it off as soon as i heard eucharistic worship... get two Christians instead
I've never heard anyone who talks this fast. 😮
Then you haven't heard Ben Shapiro.
Ben Shapiro talks really fast . Too fast for me! 😉
Ben Shapiro talks faster but it's still funnier when the speaker sounds British.
In the same way that believing that the gifts are available today (and not desiring/seeking them) is not a credible view, so too is the very common notion that we should all simply “agree to disagree” on this issue (as though it wasn’t infinitely important). In that sense only, Welby is correct about “tribalism”.
Either cessationism or “cautious continuism” is a profound error. The fact that the church is characterised by division and disagreement on this issue about the Person of the Holy Spirit is more of an indictment on our corporate chaos than either of these fellows might like to admit. Indeed, the very existence of this circuitous discussion is directing us to something else, more causal, up-stream. MARANATHA
Simon wins for me.
Simon commented that 'Christ doesn't need His kingship increased; He is king; His kingship just needs applying' and 'Christ's sacrifice is finished; it doesn't need anything added to it; His priestly work of sacrifice just needs applying'.
It seems to me that Simon limits Christ's priestly role to the atonement on the cross. In Romans 8:34 (See also Hebrews 4:14-16), Paul talks of Jesus' present priestly role: "Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died-more than that, who was raised to life-is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Christ's intercession is not an addition that lessens the value of His atonement, but is a related, continuing work that He performs as priest (and as king).
In the upper discourse Jesus talks about the Spirit being given as a helper, and does not see this as an addition to His completed work. He says that 'He will not leave us as orphans, but He will come to us' in reference to the giving of the Spirit (John 14:15-21, 16:7-15). If Christ did not consider 'the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in Jesus' name, teaching us all things and reminding us of everything He said ...' [John 14:26] or the Holy Spirit 'guiding us into all truth; not speaking on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come; glorifying Jesus, for He will take of what is Jesus' and declare it to us' [John 16:13-14] to be adding to His sufficient work, than I don't think it is necessary for us to think that tongues, or prophecy, or any other charismatic gift would be adding to Christ's finished work.
The book of Acts seems helpful here, as Jesus had already been raised to the Right hand of the Father after the 1st Chapter. The disciples (Peter) saw the Holy Spirit come onto gentiles and saw the Gentiles begin to speak in tongues [Acts 10]. They then had to make sense of what God's Spirit was doing with reference to the scriptures [Acts 11:1-18]. Jesus, Himself, had previously indicated that the Gospel was to be proclaimed to Jews, rather than the nations [Matthew 10:5-8, 15:21-28], plus the contemporary Jewish interpretation of the Old Testament would have made it difficult to immediately perceive that God was taking the gospel to all nations. While the disciples' final conclusions were consistent with the scriptures, the Spirit helped them discern how the Gospel was manifesting at that time.
Simon comments that with the conclusion of Scripture, the gifts of the Spirit have ceased and says this is because the work of Christ is already complete and sufficient; it seems to me that Simon could have just as easily argued that the work of Christ was already complete (as His' death, resurrection & ascension had already taken place) for the majority of the book of Acts; and yet we find God working through His Spirit there (and in the other New Testament letters).
Simon's view does not seem consistent to me with what I see in the scriptures.
Andrews did a good job presenting his view on the continuation of the charismata.
If everything you need is in the Bible, what is the purpose of repentance? Water-baptism? And other Biblical works? Isn't the scripture enough without these flashy extras? This is an absurd misunderstanding. The scriptures are of course "sufficient", but sufficient for all the things described and to furnish us with the knowledge we need. Following the baptism in the Spirit as with baptism in water, etc., affirms the sufficiency of scripture. Taking away from the scripture is not an affirmation of its sufficiency but a subtraction of revelation.
MUST WATCH FILMS!
Every Charismatic ( and Christian) should watch the films American Gospel 1 n 2. Also Spirt and truth.
Regarding the first film, Charismatic christianity is not synonymous with prosperity gospel. Ive seen the first movie, not the second. Not sure what they cover in the second film.
Part 4
Contextually, the texts CLEALY teaches in CONTEXT that the GIFT OF TONGUES AN PROPHETS FUNCTIONS: the Church as to have order: this is the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD.
Church setting:
1 corinthians 14:4, 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
The whole context bears witness to the FACT that the gifts are a role or function inside the Churches. Starting from verse 27-33, gives the saints those who use tongues or prophesy CERTAIN GUIDELINES. The tongues speakers are to SPEAK TO THEMSELVES AND TO GOD, that is, if there are no interpreter present. Prophets may all prophesy must NOT all at once but letting the other speak then once he's done, allow the other to prophesy. Notice, repeatedly, when we "gather together" or "in the Church." Verse 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 14: 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. These are COMMANDMENTS DID NOT STOP after the Apostles died, but continues. This commandment NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURES is cancelled out. 1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit. 20 Despise not prophesyings. 1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come BEHIND IN NO GIFT; WAITING for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 Who shall ALSO, CONFIRM YOU UNTO THE END, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Whats with all the dinominational terms. Cant I just be a christian without having a label.
39:00 onwards is key. What do you make of revelation as it relates to prophecy/gifts
46:00
The same Bible that says Jesus is enough says Jesus assigned the gifts to the Church to *manifest the presence and touch of God into real-time* for people.
“Jesus is enough.” -immediately ignores the historical record of Jesus’ Spirit on the book of Acts.
The underlying confusion here appears to revolve around the nature of 'charismata' (grace gift) having to be somewhat metaphysical in what is evidenced as a result of its bestowing, but as D A Carson notes in Showing the Spirit, there are numerous and various charismata spoken about in scripture, including the likes of marriage and administration, which clearly have not ceased, so cessationism isn't tenable in much of its argument. What is damning about sections of the charismatic movement is its cultic hold via shepherding and dominionism which has often been at the fore since the 70s (see Andrew Walker's Restoring the Kingdom) and the excesses focusing in the ecstatic can bring about, leading to a playing down of essential truths, especially in respect to the gospel. It was such experiences in the 70s and 80s that lead to my own departure and still creates concerns regarding what local charismatic churches convey as good today.
1 Corinthians 13:1
“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.”
“and have not charity” is the main point of the text.
If you speak in tongues of men & angels & love your argument falls apart.
I wonder since the Holy Spirit is part of the trinity why people are so fixated on the Holy Spirit and not on God or Jesus instead?
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. For God is a spirit and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. And this is life eternal, that they may know the, the one true God and Jesus whom he sent. We can all be led by our own lusts at times, but its due season and he that hath an ear let him hear what the spirit is saying.
Part 3
*Now dealing with the misuse of 1 CORINTHIANS 13:8-10*
Refuting the position that the perfect is the New Testament, in context it could only be Christ as we read the rest of the verses in 1 corinthians 13:8-13 which most of all proponents for the perfect being the N.T. stop at verse 10.
Keep reading. Those who manipulate or twist scriptures to their own destruction 2 Peter 3:16, the text in 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Now as you read in context, Paul did not stop where you stop but continued on. The perfect is come is continued in verse 12. In verse 11, when we were a child referring to these gifts God has given us but when we are full grown we put away childish things in reference to verse 10 the part being DONE AWAY. Now verse 12, put up the analogy and says FOR which is explain verses 10 and 11, FOR NOW at our time before Christ who is the perfect come, we SEE thru a glass darkly, things are hard to put the puzzle together, but THEN WHEN CHRIST DOES COME, face to face. if you do a study on face to face always means a person is there.
To be clear, all the THEN references mean the future when the perfect comes who is Christ implicitly only reasonable explanation given verse 12, instead, people stop short at verse 10 of 1 corinthians. The Now references are not just Paul's time frame but from that time to the end will christ returns, look at 1 corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
For example, in genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Jacob actually seen the men face to face.
Exodus 33:11 andNumbers 12:8 I speak with him face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you unafraid to speak against My servant Moses?”
Here is an N.T. example in 1 John 1:12 I have many things to write to you, but I would prefer not to do so with paper and ink. Instead, I hope to come and speak with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.
To continue in 1 corinthians 13:12, as the texts says NOW I know in PART, Paul just connected verse 10 the knowledge, prophecies and tongues which are PARTS, but THEN WHEN CHRIST DOES COME, face to face. if you do a study on face to face always means a person is there.
To be clear, all the THEN references mean the future when the perfect comes who is Christ implicitly only reasonable explanation given verse 12, instead, people stop short at verse 10 of 1 corinthians. The Now references are not just Paul's time frame but from that time to the end will christ returns, look at 1 corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
For example, in genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Jacob actually seen the men face to face.
Exodus 33:11 andNumbers 12:8 I speak with him face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you unafraid to speak against My servant Moses?”
Here is an N.T. example in 1 John 1:12 I have many things to write to you, but I would prefer not to do so with paper and ink. Instead, I hope to come and speak with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.
To continue in 1 corinthians 13:12, as the texts says NOW I know in PART, Paul just connected verse 10 the knowledge, prophecies and tongues which are PARTS, but THEN shall I know even as also I AM KNOWN. The word I am known in the greek lexicon 1921 epiginṓskō (from 1909 /epí, "on, fitting" which intensifies 1097 /ginṓskō, "know through personal relationship") - properly, apt, experiential knowing, through direct relationship. This knowing builds on (epi, "upon") the verbal idea and hence is defined by the individual context. which. So the text says shall I know we know someone even as also I AM KNOWN which is a DIRECT PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with another person, like being in FACE TO FACE with him. This is the scriptures in context, exegetically. Paul by the Spirit of God is saying once the perfect is come, we will see him FACE TO FACE then know him as we are fully known, being in a DIRECT RELATIONSHIP.
You cannot be in face to face in the CONTEXT of what face to face means BIBLICALLY in the Bible; further, to know as I am known, the Bible is NOT PERSONAL we read the Bible and Christ thru his Spirit gives us the meaning. Christ and his Spirit personal with us, however, the holy bible can not be personal with us.
We are known of God but never does the Bible say the words on the page know us, rather, the Holy inspired words, the Spirit of Christ makes known to us, thats personal or face to face and being known. Known of God: 1 Corinthians 8:3, Galatians 4:9, 2 Timothy 2:19 and 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
Wish they would have gone deeper into Scripture. Pretty much no scripture in this discussion
its because of the confessions, and systematic theology. They don't know the scriptures , just repeating and parroting dead theologians from the past .
I think this is such a broad topic they assume the reader knows the scripture. Or this discussion could take 10 hours😂😂😂
Seems like for those who supposedly speak in tongues, those people are needing something more than just scripture, similar to people who like Catholicism for the rituals and relics.
As I read scripture, those gifts finished at the end of the apostolic period.
1 Cor 13:8-10
And wouldn't it seem reasonable that any
Christian would break out in tongues at whatever church building they may attend? Why is it that ONLY people who attend the Pentacostal and like types are able to do it?
@@reeb9016
Hmm, that's not true. People who have the Holy spirit working through them will speak in tongues as the holy spirit provides.
But Have you ever thought that it's because of the simple fact that they believe that it's possible to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
Acts 1:8
@@dorcaso1619 We can have opinions in life but for me, if scripture is contrary to my opinion, I must rearrange my thinking. I do it all the time.
@@reeb9016 But have you thought that people are receiving because they are believing? At the Pentecostal churches, they believe in the Pentecpst and they believe that its for today. That's why people at those churches are receiving the power.
Because God is not a respecter of persons. And the Holy Spirit moves as he will, like the wind. The people who waited for the promise was more than those who actually recieved the promise of the Holy spirit Acts 1. It was because of their unbelief.
This is the basics of faith
@@reeb9016
In regards to 1 Cor 13:8-10
If the gifts have ceased, in your interpretation, why would Paul continue to bring them up again in chapter 14?
1 Cor 13:8-10
Love never fails, but other things will end, prophecies, etc.
God's love doesnt stop. Whenever we pass from this earth, all the prophecies, signs and wonders will end, yes. But the love of God will never end. And that's what we should focus on.
I mean, that seems to be the common theme of the end of 1 Cor 12, 13, and 14. Love prevails over all these signs and wonders.
But that doesnt mean that they've ended.
Like, the bible explains, we were not left on this earth powerless. Through Jesus's death and resurrection, we were able to receive the promise that he said that we would receive when he leaves this world. It's about time we open our hearts and minds to receive from God and allow him to use us for his glory.
Signs and wonders are for the unbelievers - those who dont believe in signs and wonders. It's supernatural, which can only be explained through the spirit. Only God can reveal his power to you, but you have to be willing to receive. It takes like 1 second to ask God for more of the Holy spirit. If God says, that's not me, then you got your answer.
The “phrophesies” Andrew Wilson gave as examples weren’t prophesies, the “prophet” simply revealed private details that had already happened. What purpose is there in telling the congregation that one congregant had a romantic disappointment in the summer?? If you went to a psychic they could say the same, or a mind reader, yet that would be condemned.
But these are words of knowledge(which simon disagrees with), and don't try to compare these things to others. Remember Peter had a word of knowledge about those couples who hid their money and lied.
That's a good point. I didn't think of it that way. If he had gone to a mind reader or something this would be different
Clearly from the intro to the charismatic he must be a ecumenical.
If you do not believe in the current gifts of the Spirit - you are judging that numerous believers in the new testament grace economy who excels, pursues and earnestly seeks for these new testament applicable gifts then are erring or thus disorderly and therefore actually standing opposed to apostolic instruction and so therefore dividing the church concerning these issues and confusing bringing doubt concerning the word of God and apostolic instruction for us today - if any person stands up in the congregation and brings forth a wrong prophesy we do have the revelation of scripture and the full counsel of God (in the bible) to discern unbiblical matters - e.g. - like to leave your wife and marry someone else (which of course would be wrong if it is a biblical marriage) - Especially for todays leaders and preachers we need to have sorted out these matters in the church - therefore need to seriously and prayerfully get utter closure about it - either you go with scripture today including the relevant gifts or you oppose it which leads to many so-called obsolete or redundant instruction according to man's interpretation (which is not rightly dividing the word of truth) - gifts are all valid until the return of Christ Jesus and still needs to be earnestly seeked and practised for the uplifting, building and strengthening of the body - for these are all done through ONE SPIRIT for the edifying of the church of God.
Great conversation 👌🏿
Simon recognizes the idea of tongues and prophecy doesn’t jive with reality. For his faith to remain consistent he adopts the belief that those gifts no longer apply today, and problem solved. Doesn’t have to acknowledge parts of the Bible are not consistent with reality, while still claiming its inerrancy.
actuary 1776 “jibe”
*1 Corinthians 12:4-14*
*4* There are different spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit gives them. *5* There are different ways of serving, and yet the same Lord is served. *6* There are different types of work to do, but the same God produces every gift in every person.
*7* The evidence of the Spirit’s presence is given to each person for the common good of everyone. *8* The Spirit gives one person the ability to speak with wisdom. The same Spirit gives another person the ability to speak with knowledge. *9* To another person the same Spirit gives ⌞courageous⌟ faith. To another person the same Spirit gives the ability to heal. *10* Another can work miracles. Another can speak what God has revealed. Another can tell the difference between spirits. Another can speak in different kinds of languages. Another can interpret languages. *11* There is only one Spirit who does all these things by giving what God wants to give to each person.
*12* For example, the body is one unit and yet has many parts. As all the parts form one body, so it is with Christ. *13* By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether we are Jewish or Greek, slave or free, God gave all of us one Spirit to drink.
14 As you know, the human body is not made up of only one part, but of many parts.
*1 Corinthians 12:27-31*
*27* You are Christ’s body and each of you is an individual part of it. *28* In the church God has appointed first apostles, next prophets, third teachers, then those who perform miracles, then those who have the gift of healing, then those who help others, those who are managers, and those who can speak in a number of languages. *29* Not all believers are apostles, are they? Are all of them prophets? Do all of them teach? Do all of them perform miracles *30* or have gifts of healing? Can all of them speak in other languages or interpret languages?
*31* You ⌞only⌟ want the better gifts, but I will show you the best thing to do.
*1 Corinthians 14:1-5*
*14* Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. *2* For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. *3* But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. *4* He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. *5* I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
*1 Corinthians 14:26-31*
*26* So what does this mean, brothers and sisters? When you gather, each person has a psalm, doctrine, revelation, another language, or an interpretation. Everything must be done to help each other grow. *27* If people speak in other languages, only two or three at the most should speak. They should do it one at a time, and someone must interpret what each person says. *28* But if an interpreter isn’t present, those people should remain silent in church. They should only speak to themselves and to God.
*29* Two or three people should speak what God has revealed. Everyone else should decide whether what each person said is right or wrong. *30* If God reveals something to another person who is seated, the first speaker should be silent. *31* All of you can take your turns speaking what God has revealed. In that way, everyone will learn and be encouraged.
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Great discussion. I would however value these guys to discuss the topic again but from a perspective of ‘form and function’. I’m trying to understand the issue from the perspective of ‘primacy’ I find that Christians who have the following type of phrase in their language - “I sense this or that” - fall foul of giving internal revelation primacy in how God reveals His will. These people may say that Gods word has all authority but in their daily practice this more immediate and instant experience of ‘I sense’ causes that to function in a primary sense. Gods word then, I suppose unintentionally looses its authority as primary revelation.
Hi, Nick. It can, but I don't think that has to be the case. I used to sometimes be part of doing prayer ministry and don't ever remember an occasion where anyone told anyone that God said to do this or that. I would shy away from that and be sceptical of someone saying that. I think because what we were doing was very much backed up by prayer and Bible study, there was never a question of you taking on an authority over or close to being on a par with scripture. I remember praying for a guy and the words of an old hymn coming to mind, and on other occasions there have been visual scenes, words and phrases come to mind when praying for people, or maybe just in a service. You have to ask God if there's anything He wants to impart, make very sure that you're not seeking any glory, and, in my experience, try to pass it on, being humble, being clear that they need to weigh it up, hold it against God's written word, consider it prayerfully, etc. And God has used that. I've found it similar to praying in a group when you want yourself to shut up. I've already said enough, you think, or maybe you feel that what you have to say just seems clichéd or foolish, and you resolve to button up... and then you get this burning inside you of something that God wants you to say. How often it's the stuff we think isn't worthwhile that God uses. That's so like God: Caller of things that are not and Selector of the rejected. But I do think that if you're not walking with the Lord and faithfully seeking Him in the Bible, you will get in a hopeless, destructive pickle. Pride is the top bananaskin and something to consistently watch out for.
Not sure if that helps, at all?
Hi Tom. Thanks for your response. It seems I was not able to articulate my issue very well. Your initial example '...that God said to do this or that...' you rightly '...would shy away from...' is not what I'm focussed on. The scenario is just too obvious. What I'm talking about is much more subtle and I suspect could be a deception the individual is unaware of. That individual I believe is all of us, including myself. Your words '...faithfully seeking Him in the Bible,...' are what so much of this rests on. Here is the kicker, do we really? No, I mean really?
If the Holy Spirit and Tongues where just for the early Church "Apostles" then why did the Holy Spirit fill 3,000 Jews from all over the known World on the Day of Pentecost? Why did Peter go to Cornelius (the Centurion) house, sent by the Holy Spirit in Acts 10 to preach the Gospel message to him and his whole household? Cornelius whole household was filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. Why did Paul preach to John the Baptist disciples in Acts 19 who never heard about the Holy Spirit? When Paul explained to them that they needed to be filled with the Spirit they received the Holy Spirit gladly and spoke in tongues and prophesied. So if Holy Spirit and Tongues are separate, why do you find almost everywhere in the Bible when a person was filled with the Holy Spirit they spoke in tongues (a language not known them)? So how can we as Christians fulfill the "Great Commission" without being empowered by the Holy Spirit which causes you to speak in tongues as the "Spirit" gives utterance? We can't. Tongues give us the ability to preach/teach in a language that we have never learned and the Holy Spirit gives us the utterance to communicate to people in their language.
Hmm. Over an hour yet the sense of 'punches pulled' and core being avoided.
The bible is the word of God. Both agree on that. Therefore the place to focus is on the fairly sizeable sections in the New Testament that set out the topic put forward for debate.
Justin, perhaps arrange another session and narrow the focus to 1 Cor 12-14. You could then look at why, as these verses are in the canon and therefore the word of God, do large swathes of the church side-step / fear / minimise looking at them with open hearts? An hour on that in 3 sections - invite Mr Welby along to be the middle man between Simon and Andrew.
I have observed this to be for one or more of these reasons:
(1) over-control from those who 'own the teaching' and therefore will not allow the Holy Spirit to function in His fullness (a wind? blowing where it wants? heaven forbid)
(2) lazy leadership betrayed by fear of applying biblical teaching on discipline and order amidst the congregation. (Easier to stamp out the things of the Spirit due to fear of the alternative and the fact that this would bring the need for accountability for authority and teaching at a grassroots level.)
(3) the excuse of 'tradition' (Safer to control from a central 'ivory tower' and handle any attempt to model 'eagerly seeking' the gifts of the spirit as 'not the way we do things here'.)
A lack of wholeheartedly embracing biblical instruction (including for how to wisely welcome the gifts) is itself a prime reason for 'other doors' or 'extras' (from the many man-centric 'gospel' pedallers) having crept into the church like cuckoos eggs in the nest. This is now happening to such an extent as to warrant a need to urgently and repeatedly preach the definition of 'church'.
Throwing the baby of the spiritual gifts out with the bathwater of fear of grasping and applying scriptural instruction is such a crying gut-wrenching shame and a miserable witness to those who could instead know God through our love for one another!
Jesus is the resurrected returning King, who saves us by his grace and mercy ... let's focus energies on sticking to the gospel (so calling out false teaching) whilst exercising humility to put the word of God above 'control at all costs'.
The Charismatic is using Prophesy and Word of Knowedge interchangeably and they are not the same.
A healing miracle is not communicative in it’s very nature whereas prophecy and the interpretation of tongues is and I think that’s where people are concerned about the danger of extra revelation outside of scripture.
Best part is Andrews posture, looks like he is about to pounce Simon in the Spirit....
I don’t understand why people didn’t interpreted when they speaking in tongues. Scripture says in 1corrin 14 need to be interpreted .
1 cor. 14:2
Interpretation is needed when the speaking in tongue is done in the assembly in the midst of all the church.
From NT, Romans 8:26 (UKJV) Likewise the Spirit (o. pneuma) also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit (o. pneuma) itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
1 Corinthians 14:2 (UKJV) For he that speaks in an UNKNOWN tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; nevertheless in the spirit (o. pneuma) he speaks mysteries.
OLD TESTAMENT
The work of the Holy Spirit = WEIRD??
Yeah... Weird things happen to Saul....
1 Samuel 19:23-24 (UKJV)
23 ........ and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, ......
24 And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down NAKED all that day and all that night........
"Unknown" is in *italics*
The orginal text just says "tongues". Or more accurately, "languages".
@@jedicharls languages around the world is 6000 to many for u to tell if these ppl are fake
Interesting how only charismatic churches receive this gift.
@@ziphos is that how it works? Not a very Biblical response.
@Travis Maldonado I agree @Cody Sorenson did not give a very Biblical response but I believe what he may have been saying was God does give to those who don't seek or what it. Biblically you can see this here:
Pursue love, yet DESIRE EARNESTLY spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.(1 Corinthians 14:1)
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who EARNESTLY SEEK him. (Hebrews 11:6)
“So I say to you, ASK, and it will be given to you; SEEK, and you will find; KNOCK, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who ASKS, receives; and he who SEEKS, finds; and to him who KNOCKS, it will be opened. Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?” (Luke 11:9-13 NASB)
@@Mgs-uu4jo I think your using those verses out of context. In fact those are among the verses that are often misquoted. We can't just look at a verse in a microscope or we believe we can fly because "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Yet that was about living with very little and "through Christ." Who was the audience? Christians? everyone? why was it written? what were the surrounding verses that give it context? You also have to put it in context with the rest of the Bible. How do you reconcile this with Romans 3:11 "No one seeks Christ." The answer to these questions begins our interpretation of scripture using Exegesis rather than Eisegesis.
@Travis Maldonado I fully understand the need for context and the use of the whole word and not using "proof text" which ironically your response was just that, proof text that is. Romans 3:11, which is 4 words does not give the full picture of mans responsibility vs Gods. I assume you would align with Calvinism as quoting that verse is a Calvinistic proof for total depravity. But again "proof text "out of context and not using the full word. I wasn't looking to get into a theological debate just trying to help the convo. God Bless Travis.
@@Mgs-uu4jo my point exactly, but you did misquote scripture to help the convo, so there is that. I didn't use Rom 3:11 as anything other than to show that in its brevity it contradicts the verses that you used.
If you’re insane
The fact that NEITHER of these guys can agree on anything, and that no two churches agree on everything, to me, makes the entire argument nonsensical. If God is that unclear when He speaks, there is a problem. He has had over 100 years to prove to people that the Charismatic movement is true and yet it's more confusing now than ever. It has to be false by the nature of God's role in it, which seems to be no role at all.
For the cessationist I’d say it’s not merely “extras” - rather it’s the Holy Spirit’s legitimate place in the Church. The Holy Spirit and Jesus have different ministries within the Church. Also, it’s not a legitimate reason to discontinue the charismatic gifts for the sake of the fullness that we have in Christ, because the early Church had the same “fullness” that we do now. Christ doesn’t give us more fullness of Him than He did in the early Church.
As I understand it, the early church during the first century was gradually receiving all that God wanted to reveal, so in that sense they did not have the same "fullness" before certain time when the revelation was fully completed. That would tie in with 1st Corinthians 13 - when the perfect comes - perfect - Greek word for complete - full comes. After the revelation was complete no more authentication of the "revealers" was needed.
I didn't feel like Wilson really answered Scott as to the purpose of tongues. He insists tongues need not be prophetic at all, rejects an experiential basis for their use but doesn't suggest an ontological alternative. It does make one wonder if it would be better even for ones own prayer life to pray in the Spirit but rather in a language you yourself could understand.
He then has the exact same problem where prophecy supposedly needs to be weighed, discussed and discerned over *even when it's not in contradiction to the Bible*. In which case what even is 'prophecy'? He would strongly discourage the prophecy about a relationship but if the Spirit wants that to be said then it would be wrong to withhold it, unless it's not the Spirit at all...
In regards to Paul, he's told multiple times from different sources that going to Rome will result in his arrest which is why Paul himself says goodbye to the church of Ephesus believing he will never return(Acts 20:13-36). This is not at all a case of prophecy being discerned to be wrong but Paul's commitment to go willingly into circumstances that he's been warned about. Which sadly only serves to confirm Simon's concern that the charismatic shifts focus away from the Bible. You'd think Andrew would be well-versed in Acts of all books as a pentecostal proponent.
I am extremely confused about the massive division of these two groups? Which one seems to be the dominant view: continuationist? I guess in my mind, 1 group is wrong and 1 group is right. They both can’t be right. Anyway, to be completely honest anytime I have seen tongues, prophecy, or healings (performed by man) it does not sit well with my spirit. My spirit tells me it is not of God. I do not see any purpose of it for the church, only for the individual themselves (to make them feel good).
How do you explain people being healed today?
Maybe modern Medicine? Maybe the body being really good at healing itself? How do you explain it?
I have experienced and seen instant healings, at home. We prayed over the chronically sick and the disease was gone. I do know that God is my doctor because he solved the issues medicine had not solved before.
I have also experienced some other gifts of God so it is not only the question of the tongues or healings, but any gifts of God. The answer is hidden in the history of Israel and it proves cessationism is WRONG.
But again the fact is that some charismatics ARE under the evil influence or it is their ego that imitates God's gifts. I have seen it work. COUNTERFEIT is no proof AGAINST the original, but FOR it.
@@Spark_Iskra_z_Polski and yet sometimes God wants you to go to the doctor. That's why he put them here. Bad theology.
@@ministryoftruth1451 I have not said sixties are not needed. Thank God He has foreseen the lack of faith or straight unbelief in humans and gave them this one more undeserved grace. I stopped being seriously ill when I trusted God. With doctors I was chronically ill. Guess what? Thank God I am healthy because of God.
@@Spark_Iskra_z_Polski that's what Jim Baker is selling too. The "if you're sick you don't have enough faith" belief is unbiblical.
Were tongues for the Jews during the inception of the church as they needed a “sign”. Also, did any apostles lose spiritual gifts such as healing. If so, we need to look further into the purpose. Also, if tongues are to be practiced today, what exactly needs to be revealed that the Bible has not written other than what a psychic can say. Also, as practiced in Corinthians 14 aren’t women to be silent? Also just as the Simon mentioned, anything (guidance/forthtelling) can’t be truly measured as it’s way to open for idea. Hence the confusion which is not to be misinterpreted as a lack of faith.
Tongue-tied
Prophesy is reading scripture the Word of God, to hear audible, read it out loud, that and only that is prophesy. Scripture says Acts 2:39 ---for all the Lord our God will call. These are the Elect. Acts 2:17 speaks of your sons and daughters prophesying in the latter times, that is now.....check it out, they read scripture now....that is your prophesy, make no mistake. I'm an old man now, I dream dreams, even while awake. We as Christians have all we need to know, the Word of God is sufficient 2Timothy 3:15-17 it says we are fully equipped for every good work. You don't need all the gifts. Now does God still heal of course,sometimes, could a real tongue still happen sure, if needed. Christ said pray for healing, even fast. How about miracles, wow people look around yourself, of course. Just not the way you want it, with a pile of nonsense and gibberish, with all that emotional frenzy. AMEN.
Who cares!? Love your neighbour.
If you love your neighbour you would teach and lead him or her in the truth.
@@halilalexanderzeverboom7012 Or maybe with humility allow them to share their truth with you?
I would say that engaging the gifts us the spirit gives you more avenues by which to love your neighbor.
How? In what truth? By living and let live? By saying You be you? That's why you should care. You might love them right into hell.
a little frustrating, wanted more about the difference in teaching of paul and the use in Acts because they do seem to be different examples of tounges in the bible ?
The notion that the Holy Spirit said, “Set Barnabas and Saul aside for the work I have for them” it is NOT Paul and Barnabas but Barnabas and Saul! Barnabas was the leader that was in charge of the first Missionary Journey. Paul was not the leader.
Barnabas and Saul were Co-Equals on their first Missionary Journey. There is no indication in Scriptures that Barnabas was over Saul. The Holy Spirit chose them both specifically. If you want to go a step further, Saul, who later was named Paul, was the only one given the "Gospel to the Gentiles" by Christ himself. After Barnabas and Paul went their separate ways because of their disagreement on whether or not to take Barnabas nephew (John Mark) with them on the second Missionary Journey, you do not hear about Barnabas being mentioned again in the whole New Testament scriptures. Paul went on to right 3/4 of the New Testament. Paul received his Apostleship directly from Christ in the Desert of Arabia (Galatians 1:17) and James, Peter, and the other Apostles affirmed Paul's Apostleship when he came to Jerusalem.
@@NtheNow I am not saying it was a hierarchy but Barnabas was definitely the foremost leader. He went to Antioch to scout out the situation then went to Tarsus to rescue Saul from his isolation and brought him to Antioch to learn how to minister to the Gentiles.Barnabas led the small group there for a year or so with Saul learning how to do it. Then the Holy Spirit said to them, "Set aside Barnabas and Saul..."
In Acts 14:3 his leadership, strength and miracle power was obvious even to strangers-Acts 14:11
where they called him ZEUS-The head of the Pantheon of gods; and Saul they called HERMES-The golden voiced messenger.
It seems to me that most churches love Saul/Paul because we love talk more than strong and powerful leadership. Is that why we focus on sermons rather than "Doing the works of God?"
Yes, Barnabas the Encourager brought Paul into the Messianic community when everyone was still afraid of him!
@@NtheNow
"Paul went on to right 3/4 of the New Testament"
I've heard this kind of claim a number of times.
Just to be clear Paul's writings (even if you accept that all 13 letters accredited to him were written by him) constitute 24% of the words of the New Testament - less than one quarter.
Luke wrote more than twice as much as Paul did.
@@TheSmithDorian , The New Testament Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) took place in realtime while the Mosiac Law was still in effect and Chronicled the life of Jesus Christ, birth, death, and resurrection. The Gospels are part of the New Testament, however, the New Covenant didn't come to pass until the death, the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the outpouring of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost. So the books of Acts and the writings of Paul's, James's, Peter's, John's, and Jude form the Majority of the New Testament. Luke wrote the books of Luke and Acts. Luke chronicled the life of Jesus Christ as the Great Physician. The Book of Acts chronicled the Day of Pentecost and the outpouring of the Holy Ghost and the Acts of the Apostles. The Apostle Paul's Epistles (letters to the predominately Gentile Churches) most of them were written by him. He was in prison often. Half of Paul's writings were written in prison. He didn't always have writing materials in prison, so some of his closest friends in Christ would come to visit him in prison and they would write down (transcribe on parchment) word for word some of the Epistles when he was under the unction of the Holy Ghost. The Apostle Paul wrote Romans, 1st and 2nd Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, 1st and 2nd Timothy, Titus, Philemon, and Hebrews (yes, Hebrews) equal 14 Epistles. All of these letters were written primarily to the Body of Christ (the Church) which even today is made up of 90% Gentile Races. The Apostle Paul's influence and impact on the true Body of Christ through all of his Epistles are priceless. They dwarf the Books of Luke and Acts (both, by the way, are just as important). But the substance and volume in Paul's writings can't be compared to. He taught more on the revelation of the Church, we are saved by Grace through Faith, Baptism, Repentance unto Salvation, that Jesus Christ was God made known in the flesh, the Rapture, Communion, Marriage, Divorce, Gifts of the Spirit, the Five-Fold Ministry, Healing, Christian conduct and many more subjects that have formed true Christianity today. Paul had more Divine revelation of Christ and His Church than all the other Apostles books combined. I believe the entire Bible was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. So every book is important and valuable. I still stand that Paul wrote 75% of the Epistles in the New Testament.
Just read the bible..
John 14:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
1 Corinthians 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
God created the universe, heaven and earth. So, going by that verse in John to mean greater works=miracles, the charismatics should be able to create something better than heaven and earth.
@@amanhasnobody3415 No wonder people misinterpret the Bible. Watch out with this kind of logic...
It’s not that charismatics want more. They want to walk in the claims and gifts mentioned in scripture. In fact it’s the cessationists that want less from scripture. Sorry Mr. Cessationist Yea and I am reading the Bible and pressing harder and studying more. That’s what I’m told at my church to do. And I find the more I press into scripture and study the more convinced I am to persue gifts and see the errors of cessationist theology. It’s such an error.
“I have never heard a defense of the cessation theory that didn't strain scripture. “
- John Wimber
All reasoning, very little Word. Cessationists have no biblical foundation for their position. They just wrestle about spiritual issues in the flesh.
any protestants from india shocked by seeing that americans dont believe in praying in tongues?
The devil is working real hard to make sure that this is true divide of the church of Christ.
Someone told me once that the proof you have the HS is the hability to speak in tongues, which would be although I am a Christian 'cause I have surrender my life to Jesus as my Lord and Only Savior am not, what!?!?!
SPEAKING IN TONGUES PART 2
As I flipped through my bible(Holy), I discovered man may want to use KNOWLEDGE (filthy) to explain the word(living- highly spiritual) and may get it very, very WRONG. As I flipped my bible(Holy), I discovered that on the day of Pentecost, the brethren were all in ONE ACCORD(LOVE, FAITH) and suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing wind, and filled all the house where they were sitting. Now, if a man of knowledge (filthy), picks up his bible and reads this literally, he will get it very, very WRONG. What does it to be in One accord, sitting down? Okay, this is what it means: a man left his house and told his disciples that he was coming back to them although not in the COMPLETE PHYSICAL REALM, but a realm next to the physical. He will COMFORT them and will manifest himself through them by miracles, signs and wonders. Now, how can he do this if not through his SPIRIT(HOLY GHOST)! Yes, his spirit is called the HOLY GHOST, and the Spirit of the father(Jehovah) is called the HOLY SPIRIT. Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit can never, never be the same. The ghost of a man(Christ) and the Spirit of a man(Jehovah) can never, never be the same. They are one in TERMS of LOVE and only LOVE and not power. Now talking about Holy Ghost and Holy Ghost, it is used interchangeably in the bible but it is the WILL of God at these last days to expose MYSTERIES hid from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD. Although the greatest Mystery is the death and resurrection of the great king(Jesus Christ). Now talking about Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit, even Professors of Theology do not know this, unless if they go online to read books of the writer, or still, read this piece. Now evil spirits and satan(third personalities in the world of darkness) is not the same, likewise Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost can never, never be the same. The Spirit (Holy) of the father (Jehovah) is like a million soldiers of a King(Jehovah). He(Jehovah) gives them order(holy) and they obey. His spirit (holy) is also along the tunnel of hell, to turn souls of men back(from the tunnel) and his Spirit is in the form of BIRD. Now Holy Ghost cannot be in form of bird along the tunnel of hell. The Spirit of a man(Jehovah) is at a REALM to dispute any power(DARKNESSS very, very possible. Forces that are neither of light nor of darkness not possible and forces of light(very, very impossible) that will want to RISE above the THRONE of GOD(Jehovah). Now talking about speaking in TONGUES, it is called BAPTISM of the HOLY GHOST. Once a man gives his life to Christ, he is expected to continue running the RACE(heavenly) FERVENTLY until such a man receives most of these gift. One of them is the gift of tongues. Now any man that sits down to learn this gift, has already incurred satanic tongues. He(She) should first and foremost stop speaking, and then go for DELIVERANCE , after which such a person may enter into fasting for God to empty him or her of the evil accumulated (satanic tongues) and for the spirit (Holy Ghost) to give him or her his GIFT(tongues). Now a man(Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Pastor) that DOES NOT HAVE THIS GIFT(TONGUES) is the MOST CHEATED MAN on earth. Why? Why? Yes, now if an Apostle(Paul) says that one who speaks, EDIFIES himself. Do you know what it means? Okay, this is what it means, a man that CLAIMS he is a born again and does not yet have the gift of the tongues is LIKE A CAR RUNNING ON A SQUARE TYRES. A CAR running on a square tyres will TRULY GET to its DESTINATION (HEAVEN) but with a lot and alot of STRESS(frustration of continually praying in English, frustration of continually fasting, frustration of ...), now one cannot and will not COMPARE A SQUARE TYRES with a ROUNDED TYRES(gift of the tongues). Yes, once such a man has that gift, he will see himself LIVING A RIGHTEOUS and HOLY LIFE with less STRESS, but this exclude such a one being beyond temptation. Such a person could still be tempted and can still(very, very possible) fall into TEMPTATION and still be speaking in tongues. A man of knowledge (filthy) will be PROVOKED why will God not collect such a gift seeing he or she has BACKSLIDED. Yes, God is not man and can never, never be man. Okay, this is the reason why a man that had the gift(tongues) and backslide, God will not collect such a gift:
1. The person is already a GHOST to the gift(tongues). If any man will be able to explain this, then God will vacate his throne for such a one. Call all Professors of Theology let them try. Now, here is the meaning, if a man(Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Pastor) who has the gift of the tongues BACKSLIDE, he will be a GHOST unto speaking in TONGUES. The person is like a man that MARRIES (has been given the gift tongues), and later he decide to go after other women(harlot). If his wife is very, very faithful to him, then the man(husband) is truly a GHOST(false husband) unto the woman. Now the woman cannot or may not know that the husband in question is a GHSOT(false husband) unto her, but the devil knows that the man(husband) is truly a Ghost(false husband). Why? Why? Yes, any man(Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Pastor) that sleeps with a woman that is not his wife, has a CLONE(false replication of the inward being) with the devil in the darkest region of drakness. Now what the devil does with his CLONE(false replication), is to keep MANIPULATING such a man at his own will. If he(devil) wants the man to go to the devil's house(club), he will do that. If he wants the man to keep taking LIQUID of INSANITY (alcohol), he will do that. If he wants the man to SLEEP(false) with his maid, he(devil) do that. If he wants the man to ... Now, any man that writes what is written above without the grace of God, will be CHAINED by the devil. Why? Why? Yes, it is a great mystery that a man would be used at this LAST DAYS to expose MYSTERIES of the THID WORLD , when he is still at the FIRST WORLD (EARTH), seeing it is almost twelve O'clock (raptured -spiritually). Now talking about a man that is a GHOST unto tongues before the devil, he is likened to a man(adulterer) who has a wife (virtuous) and still sleeps( commit adultery) with other women. Now matter how the man is GIFTED, his TONGUES would never, never EDIFY him seeing he has a clone(false replication of his inward being) with the devil. So once the man is speaking in TONGUES, the devil will be MOCKING him waiting for him to finish his TONGUES, and then continue from where he stops( adultery). Okay, this is what happen when the BRETHREN were in one accord, the spirit of the son(HOLY GHOST) had to manifest himself through them confirming the PROMISE of Christ to them that he will send them a COMFORTER. Now, if anybody on earth speaks in tongues and CLAIMS he is speaking other languages on earth, the devil will not just look at the person as a LUNATIC(evil of evil), but even worst than an ATHEIST. Why? Why? Yes, the devil knows then, it was to SHOW(GLORIFY God) the people that came for WORSHIP at Jerusalem that God is truly ALIVE, and he(HOLY GHOST) can only PROVE that through TONGUES of MEN(LANGUAGES) on the disciples, so that people from various nations could HEAR them speak and give glory to GOD. Yet, even at that, many as at then DOUBTED, signifying the LEVEL of CARNALITY of the worshippers then. But today(LAST DAYS), one cannot speak with tongues of men and CLAIM to be speaking in tongues except such a man will LEARN it through men. And when one learns a language through man, it is not speaking in tongues anymore seeing the effect that it was meant to achieve on the people that came to worship those days yielded RESULT. Yes, as result, the SPIRIT of God(Holy Spirit) used Apostle Peter to preach(Death and Resurrection) unto the people, and the Spirit of God(Holy Spirit) convicted them and they gave thier LIVES to God, and afterwards most of them received the gift of the HOLY GHOST(TONGUES) and the gift of the Holy Spirit (gift of healing, gift of deliverance, words of wisdoms, miracles, interpretation of tongues(gift of God) etc. Now talking about interpretation of tongues, it is only a foolish man that would want one that speak in tongues to also interpret it, when the gift(interpretation) has not been given to him. The tongue given to him is for HIS EDIFICATION. Men should also work(divine) hard, so that they also would speak in tongues and edify themselves instead of depending on others for EDIFICATION. It is finished! It is finished!
Part 2
*((Below, we will look at the misuse of 1 corinthians 13:8-10))*
Furthermore, on the gifts of prophecy, the TWO PROPHETS of the book of Revelation 11:10 DEBUNKS the cessationist FALSE TEACHING.
First of all, the book of Revelation were written for three periods: revelation 1: 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. First, which thou hast seen period were the glorification of Christ in Revelation 1:13-17. Second, the things which are: to the seven Churches of Asia in Revelation 1:11 chapter 2, and 3. Third, which shall be hereafter, that is to say, after the churches of Asia, the future.
Touching on the third period which is the era, the two prophets are in this time dispensation: The time of John the apostle to prophesy then in a distant future the two prophets, the sealing of knowledge or information from the Bible, the time timelines of Israel, two prophets, the Beast, and the COMING OF CHRIST, THE LORD.
#1 this Apostle John, given a book, and was to prophesy:
Revelation chapter 10:11 has no connection to the two prophets but in CONTEXT to John the Apostle, will prophesy to nations, people and kings AGAIN.
I will explain below why I did not include verse 3-7 for they are referring to a future period of the two witnesses in chapter 11 of Revelation, and it’s not dealing with the time period of John who is the Apostle who wrote this (Revelation 1:1, & 9).
Revelation 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, 8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. 9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
According to the context above, it was told to John, in verse 8, to take the little book. Then verse 9 to eat it. Subsequently, John was commanded to prophecy in verse 11.
The meaning behind eating the books or scrolls meant the words contained in the book was for you to prophecy and preach to others.
For example, Ezekiel like John was commanded to eat a scroll or book then to prophecy. In Ezekiel chapter 2:7-10. Verse 10 And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe. So Ezekiel’s book, which is God’s who inspired it, has lamentations, and morning, and woes. Now the Book of Revelation, John’s book, does say it specifically, it too has those things written therein. Then in Ezekiel chapter 3 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel.2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.4 And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.
Secondly, the time was different from John's prophesy FOR there was knowledge or information WITHHELD: NOT TO WRITE BUT TO SEAL THOSE WORDS!!
#2 Here’s my explanation for verse 3-4 of Revelation chapter 10 and why it’s the Two prophets time period. First of all, the book in Revelation 10:2,8-10 is OPENED. However, in Revelation 5:1 the book is SEALED. Now, here is the connection between Rev ch. 6 and 10 are the THE SEVEN THUNDERED UTTERED THEIR VOICES ( Revelation 10:3-4) AND JOHN WAS ABOUT TO WRITE BUT IT WAS TOLD HIM TO***SEAL UP THE WORDS***WHICH MEANS ITS NOT FOR HIS PERIOD BUT FOR THE TWO PROPHETS WHO PROPHESIES. Therefore, there were prophesies and information given that was not given for John to write nor revaled for us to see. See in Revelation chapter 1:19 it was told to John by Christ Jesus our risen Savior, to WRITE DOWN THE THINGS. Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. Three things: the thing that John has seen in chapter 1 verse 13-18, the things which are, in John’s time period chapter 2 and 3 about the seven churches of Asia, finally, the things hereafter which begins in chapter 4:1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, AND I WILL SHEW THEE THINGS WHICH MUST BE HEREAFTER.
However, in Revelation chapter 10:3-7 it was told him NOT TO WRITE. Revelation 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. Verse 7 is the key to explain why information or knowledge and prophesies given are for the two prophets time frame. Verse 7 say But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. The mystery of God shall be FINISHED which God has declared or told to his servants the prophets.
#3 Most importantly, A CLEAR REFUTATION TEXT that PROVES the two prophets are in the FUTURE: GIFTS OF PROPHECY(PROPHETS) FOR TODAY.
Furthermore, THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL will be #1 taken care and protect and #2 from the FACE OF THE SERPENT(the Beast or Antichrist) FOR 3 AND A HALF YEARS. Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Thereby, all Israel being saved Romans 11:26, Revelation 12 women represents Israel.
The two prophets are prophesying for 3 and a half years. They are visibly and CLEARLY there in the tie of the Beast. Revelation 11:3 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Revelation The Beast years he reigns are 3 and a half years, interesting.
The Two prophets are in the latter time because the beast, the Antichrist, or Wicked one arises out of the bottomless pit and kills the TWO PROPHETS.
Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Also, to take note, the Beast rules for 3 and a half years. Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. This is 3 and a half YEARS: same timeline as the TWO prophets.
This beast and false prophet are DESTROYED OR KILLED by Jesus in Revelation chapter 19:20,21. In 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom THE LORD SHALL CONSUME with the spirit of his mouth, and SHALL DESTROY with the brightness of HIS COMING.
**As a result, notice the TIME LINE: #1, the children of Israel are SAVED FROM THE BEAST; #2 IT WAS THE BEAST WHO KILLS THE TWO WITNESSES; thereby, #3, the TWO PROPHETS are in the time of the Beast; #4, it is Jesus Christ who DESTROYS THE BEAST OR ANTICHRIST. Therefore, THE TIME PERIOD FITS.. ITS ALL IN THE SAME PERIOD. JOHN LIVED THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO. Thus, the gifts of the Spirit are for TODAY**
"It´s hard to deny someones Charismatic experience" (1:03:30) ... Yes, but for example I do not deny the EXPERIENCE, however I deny the truthfulness in that claim. Being part of a Charismatic church, I and many others felt A LOT of different feelings, we had prophecies etc.... but in the end of the day, I can say that most likely ALL of them were "man made". Even if one could have been true, there were 50 uncertain things and 200 FALSE claims.
* A feeling can rise from anything (falling in love, experiencing somethings new....)
* People speaking in tongues - copy each other - There are even studies done about this, in congregation 1 people say similar words to shele ekele lele ooo lala.... and in another congregation it sounds like uuu mula du shula kula dana and they are like created languages...
Yes, I and many others tried to speak in tongues too, but we just went with the flow - no real tongues there.
* Lack of critical thinking and analysis (just going on a feeling, or on a WISH that God speaks through me) led to countless errors, false prophecies etc. A couple that (by critical thinking did NOT suite together) asked for guidance from 2 prayer groups, who both replied that God had answered them, that the couple should get married, they did, and were divorced a month later.
* People faked/lied about things to get out of awkward situations... like after 20 mins of prayer and 2 persons told something like YES - THEY CAN BOTH SEE THE SIGN as they felt the prayer would not stop unless they "saw" it. And that couple later knew of others who had said the same.
* A girl had financial problems, and prayed for help... suddenly like a miracle, there were 7$ on her account... "God had answered the prayer", it was just that it did not solve the problem in any way. Had she checked where/why the money came? No!
* Another again told the congregation how God had provided him with food, shelter and MONEY during a trip to the US. After being confronted by a woman after the meeting, he admitted that he had to work 3 jobs to get it all working. _ That´s a miracle - to have energy to do 3 jobs!
* In a healing conference, they PUSHED people to fall if they didn´t fall by themselves.
* Studies done of revivals in Finland showed that there was not a single case that could be proven to be something odd out of the ordinary.
* A charismatic church had information on their website about people who had been healed. The problem was that they were DEAD of the disease they had had - no healing, nothing, and they didn´t take down the MARKETING even if the relatives contacted them about the situation.
- I could go on, but I have nothing good to say about Charismatic Christianity. Jesus said he was the truth, so I start from the point that if something IS true, then Jesus is for that - and he is not for false things, even if people claim he is.
Hello, I have had bad experiences in "charismatic" settings, too, but their misuse and abuse doesn't mean that the real thing doesn't exist. A bit like the weird thing on the news where they're reporting how a proliferation of fake news is being used to persuade people that the true events aren't happening...
@@tommarshall7247 I agree to the first part - that misuse of "charismatic" things do not prove that they can´t exist. But there is a catch... after learning and studying the "charismatic" movements or claims, it is extraordinary how often I can predict what they say or do, and even "prove" them wrong, by following logic and what I´ve learned.
"God" told that person A and B should be married to 2 prayer groups. I did not share "God´s" view. They got married, and then divorced in about 1-2 months.
When Todd Bentley told that people have resurrected from the dead, and there was proof... I was sure not one single person had resurrected. None of his claims could be proven...
Now if half of the "charismatic" things were true, then I would be wrong in ~half of the cases, but I am not. One does not have prophetic gifts if one claims that the war in Ukraine will end. Or a prophet in Norway who was told (back when Norway had 2 TV channels) that there would be more channels in Norway in the future. If a "prophet" cannot say anything more than what an average Joe can guess, then that is no prophet.
My view is, that there can be "supernatural" events, but the absolute waste majority of claimed such things are nothing but ordinary events.
There are a lot of scientific ways to analyze claims and data. Let us not be fooled by "Todds" of the world.
@@PjotrII Thanks for that. I agree that there's lots of showmanship, and anything that seeks the limelight has me questioning. I also dislike it when people assume an authority that the think God has given them and speak arrogantly. I think, on top of that, that there is plain irresponsibility, there. Anyone going into a marriage has to take full responsibility. Or maybe they had "faith" to do the spectacular, but not to work hard, persevere, take on responsibility, etc... That just sounds like very immature leading.
Despite being wary, I've seen some remarkable things that I believe were the Lord at work. You might not consider them as more than coincidental, but I could list many more, but usually they've been fairly personal, and just quiet stuff. Who was it who said tvst when they prayed, coincidences happened? 🙂 I wrote to someone above about some. But of course, you don't know me, so you shouldn't just take what I say as fact.🙂
I feel so uncomfortable when no one can translate what they are saying in toungues.
You know, you can ask the Holy Spirit to give you the gift of interpretation so that you can interpret the tongues...
1 Cor 12, 14
Can’t wait for Simon to wake up praying in tongues! Bless you Simon..love ya!
If the healing gift was still going on today , why are hospitals filled?If the tongues was real , why is there never a interpreter so it can edify the church? Prophets lol there always wrong and nobody calls them out on it. There hasn't been a TRUE prophet since revelations that was actually called by GOD.
There are. Just because you don't know does mean they don't exist, the same goes for interpretors.
@@eskedarayalew3282 why we need a prophet when He done told us what's to come?
The Holy Spirit is not a person, and the gifts of the spirit were withdrawn, to be brought back when Jesus returns!
I deeply desire to be a member at a church that Andrew Wilson is describing. Sadly, I cannot find one in my area of Indiana, USA.
If these charismatic have all these gifts and signs why don't they raise the dead????
Answer.. no moving on now.
In Spanish the word lengua literally means tongue. If the word language came from latin then it makes sense when people speak in tongues its an actual language and since God is the one responsible for our babble and separating the tongues then it would make sense that He would and could cause us to speak in another language....but for what? For simply communication of His Word not so people can babble and be looked up to as being so "spiritual" there has to be one that could understand the messege
ur spirit is praying for u and connects to God u dont have to ubderstand it
You see why atheist are confused the religious can't agree on doctrine.
I think the confusion shows how magnificent God is and how man cannot possibly understand everything in His plan. And of course, it keeps us going back to his word for the rest of our lives. If it was easy to understand and to comply, we would be bored.
Hahahah “ when I run out of English words” hahahahahha
Try praying for the current covid situation where in India 400 000 infections daily. See where your queen's English goes.
Or how a mother n a baby coo with each other. Is that a hahaha ha?
I doubt you Ave a heart to pray.
29:17 Keeping it real :)
Not one Bible verse says theyve stopped
Except perhaps 1 Cor 13:8, although there is debate about how to interpret 'when 'the completeness / the perfect (depending on the translation) comes'. That 'completeness/perfect' has been argued as representing 1) when the New Testament would have been completed, or 2) when Jesus comes again. There are most likely other interpretations too. But I'm just pointing out that is one verse cited to suggest they've stopped. I haven't come down on either side definitively yet, though the mess I see in many (if not most?) 'charismatic' churches certainly doesn't incline me towards continuationists. I'd have to turn a blind eye to so much, and that's not really in my nature. For now I'm more about learning what God's word really says and means, and trusting His Spirit more and more in the everydayness of life, asking to be made more like Jesus every day and to be a faithful witness.
Cease, be stilled, pass away
However, I find myself ultimately agreeing with Andrew.
Exist , i experience this tang communication even i got response from people feedback on the subject Islamic is working with codes to elements Goodnesses of Christ .
One man starts speaking; can't finish sentence. Other man interrupts him. Repeat.
When he spoke of Spurgeon and how he felt something from the Spirit and it came true I must push back a bit because Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses for instance say the same thing. They say well the Spirit told me so and so is right. That’s where it gets dangerous. That’s why we must have a standard, that being the all sufficient and inherent Word of God. God has already spoken.
Mr. Wilson did a very good job representing the truth of the Bible.
Always an interesting conversation, but half the stuff being spoken is just useless arguement. The supernatural cannot be explained with a natural, carnal mind.
Ask the Holy Spirit to reveal this information to you, AND be open to receive. Those who are not able to receive the power of the Holy spirit are probably so dismissive of the power and, someone who does not believe CANNOT receive. God is very clear.
If you believe in God's power being for today, since Jesus is the same yesterday and forevermore, then you will receive the gift that he has allowed us all to receive.
NO wonder so many people are leaving the church. WACK.
Why talk about sunday ,it is not the day of rest ,it is not the sabbath
The irony is the church used to meet on Sunday just in the same fashion we do today
Descìples met not just the the first day of the week but another days as well ,nothing wrong with it, but the sabbath is the seven day and most churches has forgotten about it,they dont talk about it because it is not popular but still the commadmemt of God
Jesus the final Word. Not Mr. Wilson, I'm afraid.
No
This was a very respectful exchange.
If we say that once a set of writings becomes the Canon and it cannot be added to, would that logic also be valid for the first 5 books of the bible. Therefore meaning God had provided everything we need, why do we need more? That was not the case.
Since the Canon was agreed, God has not stopped working in people's lives. How He works cannot be contrary to His character, as recorded in the bible, or that would be inconsistent. Therefore people still write books of their experiences and understanding. As long as these are consistent with God's biblicallly written character, then those books would be worthy of bible inclusion. Thereby we would have enough books to fill the earth!
God has not stopped communicating with us, which must always be consistent with the truths written in the bible. "My sheep know My voice". Does God speak unto the hearts of sinners & saints? All the time!
So long as our first priority is to see the lost saved through grace we can agree. For so long as Jesus is proclaimed, lives are changed and God is glorified we can get on. Divisions are not reflective of a healthy body.
But the Bible is not about our experiences. Its about God. That's the problem with those who speak in tongues, its about them, and not God.
@@ministryoftruth1451 Respectfully, if you deleted out human experiences from the bible there wouldn't be much left. The bible has many aspects of writing styles, many if not most are on people experiencing God. For example Balaam - we see Balaam, a speaking donkey and an angel who becomes visible with the power to kill. The lesson being don't go against God.
@@paulmurray9999 but its all about God and not us. Those experiences are to help us learn about God. We won't necessarily have those same experiences, i.e. talking to donkeys, etc. The only thing we bring to the table is sin.