I’ve been engaged in charismatic ministries since 1970 in groups of every brand. The key to success is training people in relationships that place unity as essential. Second, train people in small groups not the Sunday morning gatherings when people with every kind of mental and emotional problem will take over the meetings. Third, restrict final words to mature leaders who listen to them and confirm first. The immature and unbalanced will try to lead and we must say no to bogus words. I have trained leaders in many nations how to establish small groups disciplines first. If we cannot have order in groups we will have chaos in assemblies.
I am very new to the Charismatic-Reformed world. I am firmly reformed in my soteriology, but my reason and exegetical hermeneutics keep me from agreeing with cessationism, like many of my other calvinist brothers do. I, personally, have not experienced some of the more "miraculous" gifts like tongues, but I do not find any evidence in Scripture that they would have ceased. Pray that the Spirit illuminates and renews my mind while I am searching for answers. :)
@@snake5305 wow how provdential that you'd ask me this right now! Over the last two years I have been studying my butt off on this topic as well as praying and earnestly seeking the "higher" gifts. But I have been PARTICULARLY studying this with intensity over the past two days and was in the middle of watching a Sam Storms video on continuationism as I got this notification from you! I am still relatively new to practicing the more "miraculous" gifts and I am an associate pastor at a very cessationist leaning church, so my ability to exercise these gifts among the body has been hampered by that. My wife and I are in the early stages of planting a new church now though, so I have been trying to learn how to wisely lead a congregation in the practice these spiritual gifts from a pastoral perspective.
@@davidjtran617 @snake5305 3 years later and I am firmly a reformed charismatic and love the Biblical practice of all gifts. I pastor a reformed charismatic church now. The Lord has illuminated the Scriptures in my study on this topic and it has been an incredible journey. Stick to the Scriptures and don't be afraid of being an outcast to different "tribes." It is worth it!
This was a beautiful and clear discussion. Truly helping me narrow it down to what my heart is confused on. You said it well. Handle these things faithfully and honorably to Christ... very hard.
The simplest thing is to just have faith in Jesus and his word and what the bible says. No gifts have ceased. They will when Jesus returns, and we no longer need them because we see him face to face.
And that returning is when the son's of glory are revealed... Christ in Matthew said that I will be many with you (but he's one person), so that many is when we are renewed back to the mind of God and when we see Him face to face it's the restoration of the Garden of Eden where God breathes Himself (his nature) into His people, who are now called by His name (attributes and Character) Amen! Check out forerunnerintl for more weighty discussion on this...
Brice Milleson Thanks for your point of view. It used to be mine also. I used to be extremely against tongues, and now I speak in them and Understand more about them. I used to believe healing ceased but when I began seeing people healed when I would lay hands I now understand. In one of the visions God have my wife he showed us opening a bible together. There is no doubt the Word in the bible we have has the answers. Also every true vision from the Lord agrees with what is written. Your at a major place of decision on this one. You may have it concluded for now, but I encourage you spend sometime in acts and specifically surrounding the promise to every generation. I have some questions to ask you. What role does Holy Spirit play in your life, in my life, in the life of the believers? If we still have the fruits of the Spirit, why would the gifts cease? Take healing for example. What role would healing have played in the formation of the bible? Why would healing not be in important for today? Love you in the Lord!
@@TheChristianPledger agree! 100% . My addition to this. I know for a FACT there are church’s who practice these gifts and ABUSE it. Just like everything else, if one Pastor abuses it or “church” abuses it, it labels everyone who practices the gifts. This sucks thats how it is. I love this conversation because we do need to know the balance, and the use of the gifts need to align with scripture. A quote by john wimber goes something like this, People who are against or believe gifts have ceased WILL have to re-think their position when they witness a real supernatural gift such as healing, words of knowledge or prophecy over them. Love you guys, we all need truth.
I often wish when these conversations are had they would have it with someone who is believes fully in the gifts who is theologically astute to bring balance to the conversation. Their approach was very tactful and walked with grace within the convo which is spiritually healthy to say the least.
Excellent discussion! God bless you all! I don't label my faith. I love the Lord and others. I'm a child of God. I was blessed with the baptism of the Holy Ghost with great power around 4 years ago. During this time I was seeking the Lord and walking diligently. And I had no idea what this experience even was! Not until less than a year ago. As I've been growing in knowledge, understanding and wisdom, I've realized more that all of His word is very relevant to this day. I've cast demons out of myself in Jesus name. I've prayed for the gift of prophecy and encouraged a random stranger about her ill child. Turns out she was a believer. I've fasted and had an open vision that pointed to scripture. Maybe this will help you all: Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Proverbs 3:5-6 KJV Maranatha! 👑🙌🙏🤲🔥📖❤🧠
I love the discussion. In my church we move in various gifts such as prophecy, word of wisdom and knowledge, diverse tongues etc on top of the ones mentioned in Ephesians 4. But the balance is when we dont major more on the Gifts but the gift giver. The important thing is not to fear the gift but to create a culture where there is proper education and discipline for these gifts because like the panelists are saying there is a whole world of Error if this is not done. The word of God must be the foundation of all gifts given by the holy spirit. And the gifts must be subject to spiritual authority. Just because you have received a prophetic word doesnt mean you should speak it. Like Paul says, if you do not prophesy motivated by love, then you are just a noisy vessel. There are various mature ways to move in the Corinthian gifts, but I also dont blame people who shun from moving in gifts.
I think it would’ve been more beneficial to have a Cessationalist be part of the discussion. I also wish that with all the talk of carefully moving a church into using the sign gifts there would’ve been discussion on consequences for false use of gifts. The Old Testament had some legit consequences specifically for false prophets, and the New Testament ought to put the fear of God into anyone who would dare utter a word from God apart from His divine directing. It seems to me that people are too cavalier about saying “God told me...” and have either no idea or concern of the consequences of making such a statement if God didn’t actually tell them that. And if He did, nothing would be able to stop them from proclaiming it - just ask Jonah.
@@legoking2372 The giving of an ordered use of the gifts by Paul shows that anything outside of those lines is a 'false use'. 1 Cor 14; Rom 12; 1 Peter 4:7-11 are helpful for seeing the way God intended for the gifts to be used.
I don't think anyone today should be writing scripture or making prophecies for all mankind. I've had prophetic dreams about my own life, God revealed certain things to me to get me on the right road. God still does miracles just not on command.
I would encourage all listeners to watch a 50 min. teaching on the 5 Fold Ministry on utube by Colin Dye He is the pastor of Kensington Temple in London.The best I have ever heard!.
And by not going there you quench the Spirit. There is most definitely a balance and if God chooses to move in various ways through his people he can even though everything is written.
Jesus, I just want You, and I just want you to be exalted and glorified in and to and through the entirety of my life, for the sake of your name and for the sake of others.
A great introduction to spiritual gifts and views regarding them. So helpful. One observation - in order to have a relationship with God you need an hourly daily miracle to happen - God must speak supernaturally to our spirit for us to relate to Him. This is a kind of prophecy. What if when doing that God says “Don’t be impatient with that guy - he’s angry because he was badly hurt”? Is that relationship with God to us, or is it prophecy? As a continuationist I find it difficult to conceive of how relationship with God doesn’t overflow into prophecy. I therefore challenge cessationists to consider how scripture describes how God relates to us - not mind to mind - but Spirit to spirit. That it is an ongoing miracle. The Bible isn’t our teacher - it’s useful for teachING - it’s the agent and framework for the Holy Spirit who is our teacher. John 14:26 A suggestion for how to grow in this area individually and corporately - give God space to speak to you on your own and through others. On your own don’t pretend you can live the Christian life without God’s supernatural voice (speaking through and consistent with scripture) and supernatural empowering. So the beginning of experiencing the Spirit is nothing more and nothing less than admitting you need God to be God. And repentance. No good work can make you good enough to receive the Spirit. Gal 3:2 And then corporately to have the same attitude. Spend time waiting for God to speak prophetically (again not inconsistent with scripture), showing a desire for Him to operate naturally and supernaturally through His people. Because the Bible says to be eager. And expect that we will be childish with new things. I have ALWAYS been childish in new things that God has introduced to me in my faith. We all know that feeling we have when we see someone who is gifted in a way we are not. We are amazed - almost confused by how others do what they do. Spiritual gifts will always make us feel the same - it doesn’t mean that we are immature just because God hasn’t given us every gift! We will in this area always experience people around us who are gifted to do something we aren’t. That’s normal as it is in life! Our job is to work out what our part to play is. Remembering that gifts are natural and supernatural our job is to act at all times in a way that shows an appreciation and need for all forms of giftedness. Natural or supernatural. So it’s not just waiting for God to speak through people - it’s about making space in church life for God to use peoples’ gifts too. I believe this is a key attribute in churches that are growing. They have an appreciation for, and make space for, giftedness. Focusing specifically on “supernatural” gifts the reason we have to get better at including these is because a church that doesn’t have a broad appreciation of spiritual gifts will probably end up with a bias against those who are less cerebral and more relational/intuitive/supernatural. The gifts are a way in which God balances up against “natural” gifts - leading, speaking etc.
The world is perishing because christians don't step out and demonstrate the power of the Holy Spirit. Ive seen people healed, ive seen demons flee from people, ive seen the prophetic work tangibly where only God knows what to say to that person. Ive seen Hospitality break the barrier in hearts where Jesus can enter in. We are dancing around the idea that Gods gifts are subtle, But Jesus was offensive and upset culture because he was living and moving in obedience to the father.
I think these discussions are great for the Body as a whole...but to simplify: we are called to be transformed into the image of Christ (to act in like, be of the same spirit, etc.). Jesus performed amazing miracles (among other amazing things, I know, but just talking about miracles here). The Church Body has been performing amazing miracles, and will never cease until His return.
What we're scared of is mentally fellow fellows making the church into a laughing stock or a scary unstable & disorganized place. I think Matt Chandler really facilitated this topic very helpfully in tactful truth. We need an orderly way of handling church gifts. There are many gifts and cessasionism is perhaps the safest belief because it simply ignores the problem altogether to solely being an issue for the past. The Church has an supernatural element and it seems the biggest challenge is clarity & arrogance when said gifts interacts with the Body of Christ. One example is tongues. 1 Corinthians 14 mentions the need for order and that an interpreter is necessary lest the gift be used unhelpfully in the church & if the believer proclaims that it edify's the church then that statement should follow "what does it mean?" Or "do you have someone _else_ to interpret what you have just said?" Its simple. I don't know mandarin or Portuguese, i grab a interpreter; because its beneficial for the church's edification because without them, we can only guess what it says and worse, could be wrong. Next is orderly leadership for the facilitating of the gifts happening. What we don't want is an insane asylum or a haunted house setting that is supposed to be a house of worship, awareness, clarity, and gratitude. We should be unified.
Signs were meant to get people’s attention. When Jesus walked the Earth and during the first church, the same argument of there being God’s word existing and not needing signs and wonders is moot. Jesus said if we abide in Him and His Word abides in us, what we desire, He will provide. He also told us to pray as though God has already provided. He never said to pray passively. When we preface prayer with “if it’s according to Your will...”, I believe it is spinning our wheels. Jesus also chastised His disciples for not being able to heal the epileptic. Jesus said their faith was not strong enough. He also called out others that their faith healed, like the woman with chronic bleeding and the centurion whose servant was ill. When Peter rose Dorcas from death, there was no passivity. The problem with signs and wonders is coveting them for personal glory. This is the enemy’s hand at play. There are also the wolves who have hijacked signs and wonders to earn fame and fortune by deceiving others with sleight of hand.
Dennis Kautz This is a great perspective. I struggle with the more “miraculous” gifts, more specifically how tongues is used in most churches. It’s seen often that you don’t have faith if you don’t speak in tongues. I’ve also seen churches make a distinction between tongues as we saw it at Pentecost (languages), versus an “angelic” tongue. Now in the churches I’m referring to that see this angelic tongue as a sign of faith - it’s often practiced corporately during worship without interpretation - against Paul’s instructions to the Corinthians. Some would feel like an outsider when placed in that context. Some would even be scared. This was the case for me at a church I attended for some time. So it led me to ask, “How can this be of God if it opposes what the Bible teaches?”. I did not see how this practice could truly be edifying to the body - but in some way a group of people praying in this way together without interpretation did seem to bring them closer together relationally. So while I disagreed, I also considered what could be a full definition of “building up” - so I never let it distract my love for this group of people and their desire for the same God. I was called to serve at a plant I believe has a healthy view on this topic and conforms more strictly to biblical church polity. I’d say we bend cessationalist but believe that in Gods sovereignty he can decide to express wonders through his people to build up his Church. But tongues as I’ve seen it practiced in more charismatic settings is not necessarily encouraged - but it’s also not discouraged as long as it is done with order or in personal prayer. Anyway, really appreciated your point brother. Justin
@@justhebigidea I agree with your perspective. The enemy thrives on using distortions of God's word against the Church. Having one doubt his walk with the Lord based on not 'experiencing' the Holy Spirit in a corporate setting is one facet of that clever serpent. I can't recall the exact message, but I was told at most churches, the devil meets you at the door. I believe this to be true. Also, the enemy uses even the smallest difference in doctrine among denominations to divide. This flies in the face of Jesus telling us we would be known by our love for one another and unity. That being said, I get it. I too seek conflict in this manner. It's difficult sometimes to have discernment when to speak out against and when to hold your tongue. God is teaching me but I have a long way to go. Bricks and mortar churches deceive many from truth, speaking as a whole. Satan knows how to set up gatekeepers to keep many from going deeper or pervert their understanding of who God is. I attend a very small church where the bible is front and center. However, there are still a few subjects our pastor avoids because it may offend some of the members. I understand it on one level, but the truth is the truth. Like I said, my discernment is better but not always clear. God bless.
Signs were not primarily meant to get people's attention. Signs and miracles were meant to authenticate God's messengers and to validate that the new revelation they were bringing was truly from God. There are only three times in Scripture where human miracle doers walked the Earth; each of those times is for a period of about 65 years, and each of those periods are when God was giving new Inspired revelation. Moses and Joshua, Elijah and Elisha, and Jesus and the Apostles. Those are the only periods of history in the Bible where we see human beings actively performing miracles, and each of those times it was accompanying new revelation. The reason we no longer need signs and wonders is because God's Inspired, written Word has been given to us in full; it was finished and complete with the end of the Apostolic era. There is no new Inspired revelation being given, nor will there ever be. We don't need signs and wonders anymore because we now have the whole Scripture, and Scripture is totally sufficient.
I think defining things as Matt said is important but care must be taken to not be too specific in what the manifestation of these things looks like. I remember being in a meeting where the pastor was hungry and desiring of the gifts of the Spirit to be in operation and most folks had some pre-conceived idea of what this all looks like. I suggested that the gifts of the Spirit were already in full operation in our midst and happened naturally out of who each individual is. I illustrated by pointing out that a word of wisdom had just presented itself through a young lady who said a few things relative to an issue being discussed. Because it came naturally and without qualification of "thus says the Lord" or something similar, no one recognized it for what it was. All agreed after a few more examples that indeed the Holy Spirit was at work in our midst, manifesting in many ways that we didn't even notice because no attention was drawn to the individual it was operating in.
In the book of Acts, (chapter 2) they proclaimed, and Luke, thus, listed the foreign languages. They were all known languages. How many 'tongues' churches are not interpreting the varied 'tongues' that they are doing? How many have no (or very rarely) speakers of other languages present?
One important fact to take note of is that speaking in " tongues" as the first evidence that a believer has recieved the Holy Spirit and their private prayer language is not one of the spiritual gifts that not all recieve by Pauls' definition of the gifts. In 1Cor.12:7, in reference to the spiritual gifts, Paul says , " But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal" The word " withal" means everyone. The initial evidence of speaking in tongues and the prayer language only profits the speaker. As Paul stated in 1Cor 14:4, " He that speaketh in an unknown tongues edifies himself. The gift of speaking in " tongues" edifies everyone by being accompanied by a believer with the gift of interpretation. I believe, according to scripture, that after a believe recieves the Holy Spirit with its accompanied confirmation and prayer language that the Lord will give them one of the spiritual gifts of His choosing. Mine was the discerning of spirits.
I’ve only been reading reformed books and Calvin for a short while. I was in church, my seventeen year old cousin was murdered, and I didn’t think I could bear it. During the service, I began to pray and worship. Without even realizing it, I began to speak in tongues. After that, the heaviness lifted, and I began to realize that all of it is for a purpose. I’m not charismatic, so does anyone have a thought about this?
What a beautiful testimony to the faithfulness of God! He gives us the grace we need to overcome. Paul says that a person who speaks in tongues edifies (builds up) themselves, but the person who prophesies builds up the church (I Corinthians 14), and that matches your experience perfectly: you needed strengthening, and the Holy Spirit prayed through you when you didn’t know how to pray for yourself (Romans 8:25-26). It was just for you privately, not for anyone else. This may become a regular occurrence for you. Often, once a person has spoken in tongues, it happens over and over. (That happened to me, and I was quite surprised) So, don’t be alarmed if it happens again without you even wanting it to. I would just like to caution you that not everyone in your church will understand what happened to you if you’re from a reformed/Calvinist background, and that’s okay. Be cautious in how you broach the subject with people, and ask God for guidance. As a person who was asked to step down from the ministry due to disagreement about similar issues, I know that they can be extremely divisive! May God bless you, give you wisdom, and continue to comfort you in your loss. -Andrew
This is why Paul tells us in Eph.4:11-13 That Jesus has given to the church Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, along with Pastors/Teachers, for the EQUIPPING of the saints for the work of service. Each of these offices has been graced with a particular anointing to be to the body a mentor in their distinct calling so that each member in the body, for instance, can receive from the evangelist through prayer and the laying on of hands and biblical study, whatever portion of the anointing that God intends for each person to receive. A pastor cannot be all five of these giftings to his flock. Having the 5 Fold active in the local church insures we are getting the whole counsel of God.
So, I'm not advocating for a fully cessationist understanding, but it seems to me that the Apostles mentioned in that passage refers only to the twelve. (compare Revelation 21:14) Paul seems to refer to himself as the last apostle, born out of due time. (1 Corinthians 15:8-9) I would tend to think that many of the gifts are still active in the church, but there may be some which were specific to the apostolic period. Certainly not a hill I am prepared to die on. :-)
Rooted and grounded in faith in Jesus and the love of the Father. The gift is the Holy Spirit and He knows the mind of God. We are not the Holy Spirit but rather be filled with His Spirit in communion with the Holy Spirit. We see with David certain inheritance is not permitted because of sins, not in communion with the Holy Spirit, as David was not given the right to build the Temple. The repentance of David showed in Him keeping the Holy Spirit, but the inheritance was voided in certain things. Beware of bitterness to keep you from any inheritance, blessings of God in the working in the Kingdom. We are to be faithful because only God gives increase and is fruitful. We can be fruitful with God in our faithfulness.
There is disenchatment and unbelief and "weirdness" because the enemy have learned that first world countries has already fallen into distraction and sleep. As long as he can keep us distracted with his evil temptations, he is good. You do missions outside these nations, the grasp of the spiritual world is much deeper and real because they have attacks from the enemy in a more tangible, unhidden ways, needing the strong use of prayer, fasting and the spiritual gifts.
"By your faith be it unto you." If your theology causes you to say, "I don't believe," then you experience: "by your lack of faith be it not unto you."
It seems to me that we don't see the legitimate demonstration of Spiritual gifts is because we don't bring ourselves to a place of need. Real need. Physically and spiritually.
Why not let the Holy Spirit do what He wants to do. Show up, surrender your life, body and soul and rest in what He wants to do. The abuses happen when believers force the supernatural. Faith in God, not faith in our ability to pursue the gifts. Desire the gifts is good but Jesus is always the centre and always the prize.
I want to tell something today i recieved new gift from haven thx god, yestarday was crap i hade fake gift im sorry to tell you about this im afraid i have been prayeng about 6 month about it!
One of the greatest impediments to the proper, mature exercising of the gifts is the church structure and orchestrated seeker focused services. We operate as an audience with no thought of open contribution. Until we move away from this mentality the Body of Christ will continue to be weak and atrophied.
I like these conversations but ... it’s over 6 minutes before you name a Gift :) Normally I’d have moved on after 5 minutes ... but I like the presentation. Thanks for these talks.
Can anyone give me sources for Andrew thing about on going revelation and healed process of the Catholic Church he mentions in the video early on ? It be a great help
Matt Chandler when talking about things that the two camps agree on he said the Sufficiency of Scripture. Although I thought that Charismatics do not believe that the Scriptures are sufficient enough since they look to God and try to seek out new revelation and new words from God that are outside of scripture. Even speaking in tongues seems to be saying that the scriptures are not enough but that God is still speaking through tongues, dreams vision, prophecy etc.
It depends. If they say that new doctrine is still being revealed, I disagree, all doctrine that does not begin with scripture in truth is not good doctrine, if it is learned elsewhere and verified in scripture then that is fine also. The Bible founds our faith, but sometimes even a perfect grasp of scripture and a thriving and living relationship with God might not be sufficient in and of itself to be able to faithfully walk in His paths. As an example, on many occasions in Acts the church fasted and prayed and waited on God for answers about hoe to proceed in various circumstances, even though the apostles had an enormous understanding and amazing relationship with God. I myself have been directed by God directly, Him speaking to me, others in my conservative wesleyan methodist church have had visions, God moving through tongues, etc. Scripture is sufficient, but its sufficient for general walking in God's ways, and for teaching the truth, and for measuring all things, but that doesn't mean that God doesn't directly and explicitly direct at an individual or collective level today, arguing the contrary would go against the grain of scripture significantly, and would cut against so much testimony from so many Christians.
@@Apologia5 because what He said brought me life. I had been struggling with self worth, stil trying to ground it in work, and self righteousness, and failing miserably, leading to me feeling like God was goinf to reject me. I was riding my bike home one day from church, super depressed and heavy and felt sick about everything. I started talking, and I got in my head "interpretation", what I understood that interpretation of that tongue was about to come, had never happened to me before, and as I was talking the words "You wil never be enough for yourself but you are already enough for me" fell out of my mouth. I had been wrestling with this issue for months at that point, and these words, which did not come from my thinking, arrived into my mind and came out of my mouth. I started to cry and it fixed the issue I was having. Similar things have happened at other times, God speaking into my belly, and again I knew it was God because it brought peace and understanding. To be completepy honest with you, one of these times I eventually questioned, or at least, I thought didnt matter - He told me that I should not persue a relationship with somebody and that it wasnt his plan, at least not right then (I still believr it isnt going to ever happen though). But I would not take no for an answer (twice a deep resounding no! came to me in prayer, and I thought later that it was still what he wanted, and then I think one or two times I got a false word that wasnt Him, but that was because I let myself be deceived by not taking no for an answer. I was never really sure, but I chose to believe anyway those times because they were giving mr what I wanted, and they led me deeper down that path of pain. So yes, it is a real danger to be deceived, but that doesn't mean that God never speaks. God is coherent and peaceful and brings understanding and peace and life in abundance. It says that those who love Him hear His voice. Its the same with scripture really. How do you know it wasnt you just putting things together as you read, leaning on your own understanding? We know it isnt just that because we hear His voice.
@@jettmorgan-bourke3516 Thanks for the reply! You said that you knew it was God speaking to you because basically it "brought you life." Basically because good came from it? However, there are times in scripture where good came about and it wasn't from God. The enemy loves to deceive. What if a hyper charismatic that we would both disagree with says that God spoke to them in a way and then it brought about good for that person. By your standard you would say that is enough to accept the claim as real and it being from God? Now, what if that Charismatic person's experiences was someone putting fake "angel feathers" in the ventilation system and that experiences was what they believed to be from God, from angels and what if that person drew closer to God because of that experience. Would you say that it was from God then even though it was some dude putting feathers in the pipes? It seems like your criteria and standard to determine if an experience was from God is if a a good result comes about!? Or if it fixes a problem that you were having? You said that God told you not to pursue a relationship with someone. Ok, but again, specifically HOW did he tell you and how do you know that it was definitely God? Was it an audible? A warm fuzzy gut feeling? Lol. How did he tell you? You said that a thought/word came into your head "interpretation" and then you spoke some words that were true. But my question still remains....HOW do you know that your thought was from God. What evidence do you have? You seem to be saying that as long as something good comes from something then that is proof that it is God? Or if something brings peace and understanding then that is proof that it is God? People get peace through yoga and understanding from many things. Also, what do you mean by God speaking into you belly!??
I don’t believe prophetic churches are trying to add anything to the Bible, or in some way do not believe in the all sufficiency of Scripture. Prophecy is used for encouragement. At my church, God may give someone a word, they release it in an organized manner, and the recipient goes up to receive prayer. It’s an important and necessary part of the church’s sense of unity. Otherwise, church can easily become a service on Sunday where people show up for a teaching and leave, instead of engaging
I think that what you're expressing is the reason for Matt's point about having clear definitions for things. Prophecy by definition is prediction. If people are predicting things without the scope of Scripture, it can become quite dangerous. Your understanding and use of the word prophecy here in your comment, gives a completely different context than its definition. I'm not opposed to the gifts being used to edify the body, I just believe it's important for the global church to rest in somewhat of a collective biblical framework, otherwise it gets out of control.
Not necessarily, Jamal. Actually, there are different frameworks given to old and New Testament prophetic. Paul talks about it having multiple roles. And that does depend on if you are specifically saying prophecy or saying the prophetic. But the prophetic is used to exhort, encourage, and build up according to Paul. It is the confirming or affirming what is already on someone’s heart. This is important when we all carry the same Spirit. Because I should never be so naive as to hear someone give me a word without weighing it. But if someone comes up and starts speaking to me about things they can’t possibly know other than they just have a nudging to tell me, and it happens that thing has been on my heart, well that’s encouraging. And even more so if they give it with something that gives a sense of peace where before I had some fear. We take these things to be so “mystical”. And I can say I have seen some that I have no way of explaining other than God told the person. However, many times I will discount telling someone something because I am good at reading people and I just bypass it. However, a friend who is not like that will pick up the same thing and not know why they feel should tell the person. But they do, and it helps them. As one of my friends says, to some is given the gift of knowledge and to others the gift of observation. But my point in that is that it is not hard for me to think that about the encounter between Paul and the two prophetesses. It’s not a reach to think they could just tell, “You have so much zeal that you will not stop carrying the message and it will take you to prison.” There are plenty of other things that talk about the science behind the prophetic and whatnot too. Quantum Physics is actually coming out with a lot that speaks to its legitimacy. But, certain people in certain camps will also get goofy with it. It always happens, but we aren’t called to act in caution, we are called to test spirits and act in faith.
*1 Corinthians 12:4-14* *4* There are different spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit gives them. *5* There are different ways of serving, and yet the same Lord is served. *6* There are different types of work to do, but the same God produces every gift in every person. *7* The evidence of the Spirit’s presence is given to each person for the common good of everyone. *8* The Spirit gives one person the ability to speak with wisdom. The same Spirit gives another person the ability to speak with knowledge. *9* To another person the same Spirit gives ⌞courageous⌟ faith. To another person the same Spirit gives the ability to heal. *10* Another can work miracles. Another can speak what God has revealed. Another can tell the difference between spirits. Another can speak in different kinds of languages. Another can interpret languages. *11* There is only one Spirit who does all these things by giving what God wants to give to each person. *12* For example, the body is one unit and yet has many parts. As all the parts form one body, so it is with Christ. *13* By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether we are Jewish or Greek, slave or free, God gave all of us one Spirit to drink. 14 As you know, the human body is not made up of only one part, but of many parts. *1 Corinthians 12:27-31* *27* You are Christ’s body and each of you is an individual part of it. *28* In the church God has appointed first apostles, next prophets, third teachers, then those who perform miracles, then those who have the gift of healing, then those who help others, those who are managers, and those who can speak in a number of languages. *29* Not all believers are apostles, are they? Are all of them prophets? Do all of them teach? Do all of them perform miracles *30* or have gifts of healing? Can all of them speak in other languages or interpret languages? *31* You ⌞only⌟ want the better gifts, but I will show you the best thing to do. *1 Corinthians 14:1-5* *14* Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. *2* For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. *3* But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. *4* He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. *5* I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. *1 Corinthians 14:26-31* *26* So what does this mean, brothers and sisters? When you gather, each person has a psalm, doctrine, revelation, another language, or an interpretation. Everything must be done to help each other grow. *27* If people speak in other languages, only two or three at the most should speak. They should do it one at a time, and someone must interpret what each person says. *28* But if an interpreter isn’t present, those people should remain silent in church. They should only speak to themselves and to God. *29* Two or three people should speak what God has revealed. Everyone else should decide whether what each person said is right or wrong. *30* If God reveals something to another person who is seated, the first speaker should be silent. *31* All of you can take your turns speaking what God has revealed. In that way, everyone will learn and be encouraged. -
a "spiritual gift" is a holy spirit given desire and ability to serve the body of Christ. Peter & Paul classify these gifts as "sign" gifts, "speaking" gifts, & "serving" gifts (see 1Pet 4:11 & Rom 12:6).
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, so if you start your day with putting on the full armor of God, and with an EXPECTATION that because Jesus is in you, He will by His Holy Spirit lead you and use you, IT WILL HAPPEN! While sharing with an unbeliever about the gift of the word of knowledge, as a, for instance, I told the fellow, it would be like me knowing his name was Mark, his wife's name was Sally, and they live at 21 Park Street. He stepped backwards and said, how did you know all that? Without even knowing it, the Holy Spirit gave me that gift and as a result of that encounter, the gentleman got saved!
When the spiritual gifts are understood according to the scriptures there is little to worry about. Unfortunately, this seems to be a rarity. It is not uncommon for charismatics and Pentecostals to put more stock in their experiences than in the clear teachings of the Bible. The evidence is overwhelming.
Tongues in the Bible are always known languages - even when the language is a foreign language. They remain known languages. Common sense tells our reasoning that any word from God is in a known human language, and not a groan, nor a chant, etc. It is always a known languae. When it comes to the issue of the gift of speaking in languages (tongues,) I have never found a church to record, or even list, the languages that people are speaking in other than their own native language. I am not talking about bi-lingual messages that are translated as a prepared message.
[20:00] "not going weird," (as subjectively defined by man) should never be a goal. There is not a biblical position for "not being weird." Both the works of Jesus and the first apostles and disciples were absolutely perceived as "weird," by the secular world. "Not being weird," is used to diminish the gifts and quench the Spirit. We are told not to do this (1 Thess. 5:19).
I was being rather tongue-in-cheek. I don't think there exists anything supernaturally spiritual; people who do, in my opinion, are ignoring the knowledge of the modern world.
@@beennete It is not a waste of time--I think I'll be the arbiter of that. I am sure you are aware that people watch video they disagree with all the time; their comments often reflect that disagreement. Maybe if you grew more comfortable engaging with others who disagree with your religious beliefs, real conversation would occur.
At the end of this video in the few minutes Matt mentioned being spiritually alive...but then distinguished that from salvation so is he saying you can be saved yet spiritually dead?
Paul basically says you can be saved yet spiritually dead in 1 Corinthians, and James alludes to being dead if your faith has no fruit. Simply put, you can be a carnal Christian (aka baby Christian) and be saved. Thank God my fruit, and effectiveness is not the thing that determines one's salvation, because then who could be saved and who would judge if I was or wasn't?
Carnal Christian and a babe in Christ are not the same my friend. All believers begin as babes yet in the process of sanctification the carnality is killed off. Scripture is replete with commands to obedience. Spiritually dead is somebody dead in sin. Carnal Christianity is staunch heresy that undermines the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the atonement. Your Scripture references are grossly misunderstood
@@TheWatkino I'm a born again Christian. Been one since March 31, 1987. I spent 20 years of my Christian life in sin. So, if I had died, would I have gone to hell?
I don't know the theological background of any of these guys. Are they all Baptists? Charismatic? Pentecostal? A combination of the three? It's not a helpful conversation if they are all of the same persuasion.
i d let the manifest on its own and not give it an open time for it that would give the weird space to come out . to open the mike to prophecy for ,let say the next 15 min, its opening up to crazy stuff.
SPEAKING IN TONGUES PART 2 As I flipped through my bible(Holy), I discovered man may want to use KNOWLEDGE (filthy) to explain the word(living- highly spiritual) and may get it very, very WRONG. As I flipped my bible(Holy), I discovered that on the day of Pentecost, the brethren were all in ONE ACCORD(LOVE, FAITH) and suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing wind, and filled all the house where they were sitting. Now, if a man of knowledge (filthy), picks up his bible and reads this literally, he will get it very, very WRONG. What does it to be in One accord, sitting down? Okay, this is what it means: a man left his house and told his disciples that he was coming back to them although not in the COMPLETE PHYSICAL REALM, but a realm next to the physical. He will COMFORT them and will manifest himself through them by miracles, signs and wonders. Now, how can he do this if not through his SPIRIT(HOLY GHOST)! Yes, his spirit is called the HOLY GHOST, and the Spirit of the father(Jehovah) is called the HOLY SPIRIT. Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit can never, never be the same. The ghost of a man(Christ) and the Spirit of a man(Jehovah) can never, never be the same. They are one in TERMS of LOVE and only LOVE and not power. Now talking about Holy Ghost and Holy Ghost, it is used interchangeably in the bible but it is the WILL of God at these last days to expose MYSTERIES hid from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD. Although the greatest Mystery is the death and resurrection of the great king(Jesus Christ). Now talking about Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit, even Professors of Theology do not know this, unless if they go online to read books of the writer, or still, read this piece. Now evil spirits and satan(third personalities in the world of darkness) is not the same, likewise Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost can never, never be the same. The Spirit (Holy) of the father (Jehovah) is like a million soldiers of a King(Jehovah). He(Jehovah) gives them order(holy) and they obey. His spirit (holy) is also along the tunnel of hell, to turn souls of men back(from the tunnel) and his Spirit is in the form of BIRD. Now Holy Ghost cannot be in form of bird along the tunnel of hell. The Spirit of a man(Jehovah) is at a REALM to dispute any power(DARKNESSS very, very possible. Forces that are neither of light nor of darkness not possible and forces of light(very, very impossible) that will want to RISE above the THRONE of GOD(Jehovah). Now talking about speaking in TONGUES, it is called BAPTISM of the HOLY GHOST. Once a man gives his life to Christ, he is expected to continue running the RACE(heavenly) FERVENTLY until such a man receives most of these gift. One of them is the gift of tongues. Now any man that sits down to learn this gift, has already incurred satanic tongues. He(She) should first and foremost stop speaking, and then go for DELIVERANCE , after which such a person may enter into fasting for God to empty him or her of the evil accumulated (satanic tongues) and for the spirit (Holy Ghost) to give him or her his GIFT(tongues). Now a man(Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Pastor) that DOES NOT HAVE THIS GIFT(TONGUES) is the MOST CHEATED MAN on earth. Why? Why? Yes, now if an Apostle(Paul) says that one who speaks, EDIFIES himself. Do you know what it means? Okay, this is what it means, a man that CLAIMS he is a born again and does not yet have the gift of the tongues is LIKE A CAR RUNNING ON A SQUARE TYRES. A CAR running on a square tyres will TRULY GET to its DESTINATION (HEAVEN) but with a lot and alot of STRESS(frustration of continually praying in English, frustration of continually fasting, frustration of ...), now one cannot and will not COMPARE A SQUARE TYRES with a ROUNDED TYRES(gift of the tongues). Yes, once such a man has that gift, he will see himself LIVING A RIGHTEOUS and HOLY LIFE with less STRESS, but this exclude such a one being beyond temptation. Such a person could still be tempted and can still(very, very possible) fall into TEMPTATION and still be speaking in tongues. A man of knowledge (filthy) will be PROVOKED why will God not collect such a gift seeing he or she has BACKSLIDED. Yes, God is not man and can never, never be man. Okay, this is the reason why a man that had the gift(tongues) and backslide, God will not collect such a gift: 1. The person is already a GHOST to the gift(tongues). If any man will be able to explain this, then God will vacate his throne for such a one. Call all Professors of Theology let them try. Now, here is the meaning, if a man(Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Pastor) who has the gift of the tongues BACKSLIDE, he will be a GHOST unto speaking in TONGUES. The person is like a man that MARRIES (has been given the gift tongues), and later he decide to go after other women(harlot). If his wife is very, very faithful to him, then the man(husband) is truly a GHOST(false husband) unto the woman. Now the woman cannot or may not know that the husband in question is a GHSOT(false husband) unto her, but the devil knows that the man(husband) is truly a Ghost(false husband). Why? Why? Yes, any man(Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Pastor) that sleeps with a woman that is not his wife, has a CLONE(false replication of the inward being) with the devil in the darkest region of drakness. Now what the devil does with his CLONE(false replication), is to keep MANIPULATING such a man at his own will. If he(devil) wants the man to go to the devil's house(club), he will do that. If he wants the man to keep taking LIQUID of INSANITY (alcohol), he will do that. If he wants the man to SLEEP(false) with his maid, he(devil) do that. If he wants the man to ... Now, any man that writes what is written above without the grace of God, will be CHAINED by the devil. Why? Why? Yes, it is a great mystery that a man would be used at this LAST DAYS to expose MYSTERIES of the THID WORLD , when he is still at the FIRST WORLD (EARTH), seeing it is almost twelve O'clock (raptured -spiritually). Now talking about a man that is a GHOST unto tongues before the devil, he is likened to a man(adulterer) who has a wife (virtuous) and still sleeps( commit adultery) with other women. Now matter how the man is GIFTED, his TONGUES would never, never EDIFY him seeing he has a clone(false replication of his inward being) with the devil. So once the man is speaking in TONGUES, the devil will be MOCKING him waiting for him to finish his TONGUES, and then continue from where he stops( adultery). Okay, this is what happen when the BRETHREN were in one accord, the spirit of the son(HOLY GHOST) had to manifest himself through them confirming the PROMISE of Christ to them that he will send them a COMFORTER. Now, if anybody on earth speaks in tongues and CLAIMS he is speaking other languages on earth, the devil will not just look at the person as a LUNATIC(evil of evil), but even worst than an ATHEIST. Why? Why? Yes, the devil knows then, it was to SHOW(GLORIFY God) the people that came for WORSHIP at Jerusalem that God is truly ALIVE, and he(HOLY GHOST) can only PROVE that through TONGUES of MEN(LANGUAGES) on the disciples, so that people from various nations could HEAR them speak and give glory to GOD. Yet, even at that, many as at then DOUBTED, signifying the LEVEL of CARNALITY of the worshippers then. But today(LAST DAYS), one cannot speak with tongues of men and CLAIM to be speaking in tongues except such a man will LEARN it through men. And when one learns a language through man, it is not speaking in tongues anymore seeing the effect that it was meant to achieve on the people that came to worship those days yielded RESULT. Yes, as result, the SPIRIT of God(Holy Spirit) used Apostle Peter to preach(Death and Resurrection) unto the people, and the Spirit of God(Holy Spirit) convicted them and they gave thier LIVES to God, and afterwards most of them received the gift of the HOLY GHOST(TONGUES) and the gift of the Holy Spirit (gift of healing, gift of deliverance, words of wisdoms, miracles, interpretation of tongues(gift of God) etc. Now talking about interpretation of tongues, it is only a foolish man that would want one that speak in tongues to also interpret it, when the gift(interpretation) has not been given to him. The tongue given to him is for HIS EDIFICATION. Men should also work(divine) hard, so that they also would speak in tongues and edify themselves instead of depending on others for EDIFICATION. It is finished! It is finished!
The only gift that matters is the chief cornerstone where we start building our relationship with Jesus. The gift of salvation. Jesus Himself says that if you want to do the works of the Father it’s to believe in Him who He sent. To believe in Jesus is what matters. To do that is to lay down our own prides of what we think is right. If anything hinders us to love our brothers intimately as Christ commands then they need to be cut out. If your eye offends you then cut it out. When one surrenders their life completely to Jesus, these become so minor to the body. Build on the gift of salvation in learning how to love the Lord your God sacrificially laying down ones pride and then allow Him through the Holy Spirit to love your neighbor as yourself. Learn to do that first then we would worry about these. They would come naturally and individually as the Lord give them. We worry too much about the menial and lose focus on the main theme of Believing in Jesus where he can move through us as He sees fit.
You are saying what is true in the scripture or not for today and saying if we believe all of scripture we are wrong. You are weeding out the scripture you don't understand so could you be the one who is wrong? John says my sheep hear my voice and another they do not follow.
mcat86 “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father also. If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: 'They hated me without a cause.'” John 15:22-25 ESV “When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.” John 17:1-2 ESV “"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.” John 17:6 ESV “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.” John 17:9-10 ESV “Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.” John 17:24 ESV “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48 ESV “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, "We will hear you again about this." So Paul went out from their midst. But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.” Acts 17:30, 32-34 ESV We preach to all people, God chooses those who will believe, we don’t know who they are. There will always be some who won’t believe, remain with a hardened heart, and go to hell, Jesus told some Pharisees straight up “you will die in your sins”
I love how they only talk about languages vs tongs as if its gibberish. I know people who speak random babble that makes no sense to anyone including themselves and no interpreter and they say its from God. I ask why and their heads explode. I wish people would see that any gift is temporal unless its a character gift like being a gifted teacher. Scripture does not support a individual being able to heal at will, if that person exists they should go visit a cancer ward or any hospital. Scripture does not support an individual speaking random gibberish and it being edification of the church if there is no interpreter. Scripture does not support an individual giving revelatory prophecy
Faith & Truth I walk in a lot of different camps. I see a lot of the good in all of them as well as a lot of the whacky in all of them. I will say many don’t know why they do half of what they do but to them for some reason it has brought benefit. I would say that’s not always their issue as much as just the teaching has never made it down the line. I will say the Bible speaks in spiritual terms because throughout history 95% of people have been uneducated therefore it would not be beneficial to speak to them so. However, science, truthful science, is the uncovered knowledge of what we know about God and His works. And much of it is actually beginning to explain a lot of these things as though He has worked the miraculous into the very fabric of creation. But the two spots I will touch on briefly, because they come up often are the personal language that is called speaking in tongues. The Greek uses 4 different words for speaking in tongues. One of them what we refer to as a personal prayer language. 1 Cor. 14 speaks to that and actually starts off by saying, “Indeed the speaker may not even know what he is saying for he is speaking mysteries with his spirit.” And there are many reasons and benefits to this. One that it bypasses our conscious thought which often causes us to have very weak prayers. But instead God is building something into our spirit that once it has more solidity to it, we can then pray that out in our understanding. And I could go on at length about that. A great resource is actually a book called The Walk of the Spirit, The Walk of Power by Dave Roberson. The second part I would speak to is the why wouldn’t someone go clear out the hospitals and whatnot. I will first say that some friends came and visited and cleared out much of a hospital and I can’t remember how long it stayed that way, but for quite a long time, the numbers in that hospital remained low. But the question is then, why didn’t Jesus clean out the leper colonies? Well, part of that truth is that it has more to do with the faith of the person looking for healing than it does the person administering the healing. Or at least it plays a huge part. So can anyone do it “at will”? No. Even Jesus couldn’t. In his own hometown it says He was very limited by their unbelief. Anyway, just thought I’d pop those out there because I know many who walk in these things but have never really sought out the why’s and how’s. And I would say I would probably rather they do them if it comes “naturally” to them than to worry about explaining it. In fact, I can explain it very well, but most of my friends can do it better than I can. I have helped many get rolling in these things and yet I often feel like I function in them the least. Oh well, as long as faith is being carried out in love and the work of God is being done.
@@justinheckel5191 you miss the entire point of what this was for in scripture. Jesus didn't heal people so they will be healthy, he didn't raise the dead so they dont die again. Jesus did many great things for 2 reasons. To validate himself and his message, and to be the sacrificial lamb on our behalf. Hoaxes happen all the time if they wernt hoaxes their next step will be sound biblical teaching about Christ. More than 95% of what comes next is a combination of biblical illiteracy and money pleas. The purpose of apostolic miracles was to validate the messenger and to lift up the church. That never happens with "higher gifted" people. These are nothing more than signs and wonders. A Lord Lord people who dont know Christ. Others who do know Christ try to use these false gifts for an emotional connection based on experience and not scripture. When not if but when outsiders look at this they think it's crazy and so do bible believing Christians. Paul talks extensively about this in 1 Corinth 14. That is why he proclaimed profecy(speaking scripture not revelation) is better than speaking in tongs. Does God heal? Yes. Do people miraculously heal? No or else they are an apostle. Can a group pray for healing and it happen? Yes. Can a group go around healing at will? No or else they are apostles. Same goes for all the apostolic gifts, they died with the Apostles. Scripture is very clear about who did miracles and who messed up with false miracles. People look at the Corinthian church like it was some great thing when in reality as in Paul's letters it was people doing false things and it was scaring people away from the Church. This is why their numbers were soooooooo small. Biblical Christianity is the only saving Gospel. All others are either saved but terrible witnesses to truth or completely false. Faith comes from hearing the word not from seeing signs. Our focus should be the Word of God.
Faith & Truth right. My stance is that you have a hard time having Biblical Christianity without the gifts. Many questions come up from your response: What scripture says that His only reason for healing and raising the dead was to validate Himself? Of course people weren’t raised to live forever in a body that remembers sin, that wouldn’t be grace at all. If scripture says He set us free for the sake of being healed, where do you get that He wouldn’t heal you so you could be healed? What scripture says it ended with the apostles? What scripture says only the apostles did the miraculous works? Where does it say that prophecy is reserved to repeating scripture? Paul’s Point In Corinthians, he speaks of the gifts, goes into the love chapter, and back into the gifts. His point was, it all must be centered around love otherwise you’re just a clanging cymbal. Aside from that, this stance is great in our Western civilization with people who like to intellectually break everything down but not act in faith because we might look dumb. You know, Peter was told by Christ himself to walk on the water and he fell. So I doubt whether it happens 100% is a great measure of whether or not gifts itself are from God. More that we need to learn to have th at conversation with Him better. Not only that, but even CHRIST could only do a few miracles in His hometown because of unbelief. But back to the point, many missionaries would think its crazy to not believe in miracles and the prophetic. Especially when it comes to places that have deep occult practices. Why? Because those witch doctors see it the same as a physical fight. “Tell me your theories all you want, but let’s spar and see what happens.” Because as Christ said, “Wisdom is proved right by its result/fruit.” And as Paul said, “It is not a Kingdom of mere words but of power.” I will tell you, if it hadn’t been for listening to God in a Starbucks, I wouldn’t have watched some of the most amazing conversion/reconciliation/discipleships I’ve heard of.
@@justinheckel5191 No one is saying miracles don't exist. what I am saying is you can't force blast people with Jesus energy, you can't speak gibberish that is angelic language, you can't heal at will, ect. that stuff is non-biblical voodoo. It is the opposite of what the bible says. Read your bible if signs and wonders can be possible demonic deception maybe if something seems like a miracle you should Acts 17:11 it first to see if it is from God or if it is from the spirit of the anti-christ.
Faith & Truth I get it that nobody would dare say that miracles don’t happen. But Christ in us is the hope of glory and we are the fullness of the Godhead on the earth. Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean that it doesn’t work. And just because the only way you’ve apparently tried to understand it is from the ways that it has been abused doesn’t mean that is the only way it is used. Maybe realize there is more to God and our relationship with him than our minds can comprehend. I know very well how to test if things are from God or not because I actually am in places that need that discernment. So as of yet, what I hear from you is you don’t have scripture for what you’re saying.
So this isn’t actually a round table discussion. Having a round table discussion implies that more than one position will be represented. Second, there wasn’t a cessationist there. Third, they only talked about the practices and gave no exegetical arguments for their position or against the opposition. All in all not very enlightening; more propaganda than proofs.
Balance without stifling the Holy Spirit or attacking others in the body of Christ. This is beautiful to watch.
I’ve been engaged in charismatic ministries since 1970 in groups of every brand. The key to success is training people in relationships that place unity as essential. Second, train people in small groups not the Sunday morning gatherings when people with every kind of mental and emotional problem will take over the meetings. Third, restrict final words to mature leaders who listen to them and confirm first. The immature and unbalanced will try to lead and we must say no to bogus words. I have trained leaders in many nations how to establish small groups disciplines first. If we cannot have order in groups we will have chaos in assemblies.
Very sound advice.
I am very new to the Charismatic-Reformed world. I am firmly reformed in my soteriology, but my reason and exegetical hermeneutics keep me from agreeing with cessationism, like many of my other calvinist brothers do. I, personally, have not experienced some of the more "miraculous" gifts like tongues, but I do not find any evidence in Scripture that they would have ceased. Pray that the Spirit illuminates and renews my mind while I am searching for answers. :)
It's been 2 years. Where are you at in your journey in seeking the validity and experience of the Spiritual revelatory gifts?
@@snake5305 wow how provdential that you'd ask me this right now!
Over the last two years I have been studying my butt off on this topic as well as praying and earnestly seeking the "higher" gifts.
But I have been PARTICULARLY studying this with intensity over the past two days and was in the middle of watching a Sam Storms video on continuationism as I got this notification from you!
I am still relatively new to practicing the more "miraculous" gifts and I am an associate pastor at a very cessationist leaning church, so my ability to exercise these gifts among the body has been hampered by that.
My wife and I are in the early stages of planting a new church now though, so I have been trying to learn how to wisely lead a congregation in the practice these spiritual gifts from a pastoral perspective.
Me too brother, i am here at this moment. Pray the Lord will reveal to me what He needs to and give me understanding
@@davidjtran617 @snake5305 3 years later and I am firmly a reformed charismatic and love the Biblical practice of all gifts. I pastor a reformed charismatic church now. The Lord has illuminated the Scriptures in my study on this topic and it has been an incredible journey. Stick to the Scriptures and don't be afraid of being an outcast to different "tribes." It is worth it!
@@davidjtran617welcome
Good discussion, very balanced. Churches should have settings where the gifts can be talked about and even experienced.
I appreciate the charity and grace displayed in this conversation. I found this very helpful. Thank you
Yes. I agree with the comments. Josh Patterson does a great job of facilitating; he reiterates ideas and this provides clarity.
Such a healthy and helpful discussion! I think we are all hungry for a spiritual awakening!
This was a beautiful and clear discussion. Truly helping me narrow it down to what my heart is confused on. You said it well. Handle these things faithfully and honorably to Christ... very hard.
The simplest thing is to just have faith in Jesus and his word and what the bible says.
No gifts have ceased. They will when Jesus returns, and we no longer need them because we see him face to face.
And that returning is when the son's of glory are revealed... Christ in Matthew said that I will be many with you (but he's one person), so that many is when we are renewed back to the mind of God and when we see Him face to face it's the restoration of the Garden of Eden where God breathes Himself (his nature) into His people, who are now called by His name (attributes and Character)
Amen! Check out forerunnerintl for more weighty discussion on this...
Brice Milleson read John 1. Jesus is the Word of God that became flesh and dwelt among us.
Brice Milleson Thanks for your point of view. It used to be mine also.
I used to be extremely against tongues, and now I speak in them and Understand more about them. I used to believe healing ceased but when I began seeing people healed when I would lay hands I now understand.
In one of the visions God have my wife he showed us opening a bible together. There is no doubt the Word in the bible we have has the answers. Also every true vision from the Lord agrees with what is written.
Your at a major place of decision on this one. You may have it concluded for now, but I encourage you spend sometime in acts and specifically surrounding the promise to every generation.
I have some questions to ask you. What role does Holy Spirit play in your life, in my life, in the life of the believers?
If we still have the fruits of the Spirit, why would the gifts cease? Take healing for example. What role would healing have played in the formation of the bible? Why would healing not be in important for today?
Love you in the Lord!
Brice Milleson I’m waiting to hear from you. How are you?
@@TheChristianPledger agree! 100% . My addition to this. I know for a FACT there are church’s who practice these gifts and ABUSE it. Just like everything else, if one Pastor abuses it or “church” abuses it, it labels everyone who practices the gifts. This sucks thats how it is. I love this conversation because we do need to know the balance, and the use of the gifts need to align with scripture. A quote by john wimber goes something like this, People who are against or believe gifts have ceased WILL have to re-think their position when they witness a real supernatural gift such as healing, words of knowledge or prophecy over them. Love you guys, we all need truth.
I often wish when these conversations are had they would have it with someone who is believes fully in the gifts who is theologically astute to bring balance to the conversation. Their approach was very tactful and walked with grace within the convo which is spiritually healthy to say the least.
Excellent discussion!
God bless you all!
I don't label my faith.
I love the Lord and others.
I'm a child of God.
I was blessed with the baptism of the Holy Ghost with great power around 4 years ago. During this time I was seeking the Lord and walking diligently. And I had no idea what this experience even was! Not until less than a year ago. As I've been growing in knowledge, understanding and wisdom, I've realized more that all of His word is very relevant to this day. I've cast demons out of myself in Jesus name. I've prayed for the gift of prophecy and encouraged a random stranger about her ill child. Turns out she was a believer. I've fasted and had an open vision that pointed to scripture. Maybe this will help you all:
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Proverbs 3:5-6 KJV
Maranatha! 👑🙌🙏🤲🔥📖❤🧠
Love this! Amen!
I want to get this 🥹
Great conversation with modern relevancy, good insight, and thought-provoking touch points.
The gifts are still available for believers and needed to fulfill the Great Commission and maturity of the Body of Christ
Excellent conversation, great production value also. *bookmarked*
All gifts ARE needed and God empowered in the life of the believers
All the gifts are still available
This is so H E A L T H Y !
Alejandro Zelaya bro bro so cool to find you in the comment section 😆
YEAH MAN!!!
I love the discussion. In my church we move in various gifts such as prophecy, word of wisdom and knowledge, diverse tongues etc on top of the ones mentioned in Ephesians 4. But the balance is when we dont major more on the Gifts but the gift giver. The important thing is not to fear the gift but to create a culture where there is proper education and discipline for these gifts because like the panelists are saying there is a whole world of Error if this is not done. The word of God must be the foundation of all gifts given by the holy spirit. And the gifts must be subject to spiritual authority. Just because you have received a prophetic word doesnt mean you should speak it. Like Paul says, if you do not prophesy motivated by love, then you are just a noisy vessel. There are various mature ways to move in the Corinthian gifts, but I also dont blame people who shun from moving in gifts.
I think it would’ve been more beneficial to have a Cessationalist be part of the discussion. I also wish that with all the talk of carefully moving a church into using the sign gifts there would’ve been discussion on consequences for false use of gifts. The Old Testament had some legit consequences specifically for false prophets, and the New Testament ought to put the fear of God into anyone who would dare utter a word from God apart from His divine directing. It seems to me that people are too cavalier about saying “God told me...” and have either no idea or concern of the consequences of making such a statement if God didn’t actually tell them that. And if He did, nothing would be able to stop them from proclaiming it - just ask Jonah.
Can you show me where false use of gifts is scripturally?
False prophets all over Jeremiah
@@legoking2372 The giving of an ordered use of the gifts by Paul shows that anything outside of those lines is a 'false use'. 1 Cor 14; Rom 12; 1 Peter 4:7-11 are helpful for seeing the way God intended for the gifts to be used.
Agree
I don't think anyone today should be writing scripture or making prophecies for all mankind. I've had prophetic dreams about my own life, God revealed certain things to me to get me on the right road. God still does miracles just not on command.
Signs and wonders will follow those who believe.
I would encourage all listeners to watch a 50 min. teaching on the 5 Fold Ministry on utube by Colin Dye He is the pastor of Kensington Temple in London.The best I have ever heard!.
And by not going there you quench the Spirit.
There is most definitely a balance and if God chooses to move in various ways through his people he can even though everything is written.
Don't agree with everything that comes out TVC of late but definitely respect you all for these sit down discussion 💪
Great discussion!
Jesus, I just want You, and I just want you to be exalted and glorified in and to and through the entirety of my life, for the sake of your name and for the sake of others.
Amen!
A great introduction to spiritual gifts and views regarding them. So helpful.
One observation - in order to have a relationship with God you need an hourly daily miracle to happen - God must speak supernaturally to our spirit for us to relate to Him. This is a kind of prophecy. What if when doing that God says “Don’t be impatient with that guy - he’s angry because he was badly hurt”? Is that relationship with God to us, or is it prophecy? As a continuationist I find it difficult to conceive of how relationship with God doesn’t overflow into prophecy.
I therefore challenge cessationists to consider how scripture describes how God relates to us - not mind to mind - but Spirit to spirit. That it is an ongoing miracle. The Bible isn’t our teacher - it’s useful for teachING - it’s the agent and framework for the Holy Spirit who is our teacher. John 14:26
A suggestion for how to grow in this area individually and corporately - give God space to speak to you on your own and through others. On your own don’t pretend you can live the Christian life without God’s supernatural voice (speaking through and consistent with scripture) and supernatural empowering. So the beginning of experiencing the Spirit is nothing more and nothing less than admitting you need God to be God. And repentance. No good work can make you good enough to receive the Spirit. Gal 3:2
And then corporately to have the same attitude. Spend time waiting for God to speak prophetically (again not inconsistent with scripture), showing a desire for Him to operate naturally and supernaturally through His people. Because the Bible says to be eager.
And expect that we will be childish with new things. I have ALWAYS been childish in new things that God has introduced to me in my faith.
We all know that feeling we have when we see someone who is gifted in a way we are not. We are amazed - almost confused by how others do what they do. Spiritual gifts will always make us feel the same - it doesn’t mean that we are immature just because God hasn’t given us every gift! We will in this area always experience people around us who are gifted to do something we aren’t. That’s normal as it is in life! Our job is to work out what our part to play is.
Remembering that gifts are natural and supernatural our job is to act at all times in a way that shows an appreciation and need for all forms of giftedness. Natural or supernatural. So it’s not just waiting for God to speak through people - it’s about making space in church life for God to use peoples’ gifts too. I believe this is a key attribute in churches that are growing. They have an appreciation for, and make space for, giftedness.
Focusing specifically on “supernatural” gifts the reason we have to get better at including these is because a church that doesn’t have a broad appreciation of spiritual gifts will probably end up with a bias against those who are less cerebral and more relational/intuitive/supernatural. The gifts are a way in which God balances up against “natural” gifts - leading, speaking etc.
really enjoyed this. thank you. It wasn't "weird" at all.
The world is perishing because christians don't step out and demonstrate the power of the Holy Spirit. Ive seen people healed, ive seen demons flee from people, ive seen the prophetic work tangibly where only God knows what to say to that person. Ive seen Hospitality break the barrier in hearts where Jesus can enter in. We are dancing around the idea that Gods gifts are subtle, But Jesus was offensive and upset culture because he was living and moving in obedience to the father.
I think these discussions are great for the Body as a whole...but to simplify: we are called to be transformed into the image of Christ (to act in like, be of the same spirit, etc.). Jesus performed amazing miracles (among other amazing things, I know, but just talking about miracles here). The Church Body has been performing amazing miracles, and will never cease until His return.
What we're scared of is mentally fellow fellows making the church into a laughing stock or a scary unstable & disorganized place.
I think Matt Chandler really facilitated this topic very helpfully in tactful truth.
We need an orderly way of handling church gifts.
There are many gifts and cessasionism is perhaps the safest belief because it simply ignores the problem altogether to solely being an issue for the past.
The Church has an supernatural element and it seems the biggest challenge is clarity & arrogance when said gifts interacts with the Body of Christ.
One example is tongues. 1 Corinthians 14 mentions the need for order and that an interpreter is necessary lest the gift be used unhelpfully in the church & if the believer proclaims that it edify's the church then that statement should follow "what does it mean?" Or "do you have someone _else_ to interpret what you have just said?"
Its simple. I don't know mandarin or Portuguese, i grab a interpreter; because its beneficial for the church's edification because without them, we can only guess what it says and worse, could be wrong.
Next is orderly leadership for the facilitating of the gifts happening.
What we don't want is an insane asylum or a haunted house setting that is supposed to be a house of worship, awareness, clarity, and gratitude.
We should be unified.
We can also ask for the gifts.
Signs were meant to get people’s attention. When Jesus walked the Earth and during the first church, the same argument of there being God’s word existing and not needing signs and wonders is moot.
Jesus said if we abide in Him and His Word abides in us, what we desire, He will provide. He also told us to pray as though God has already provided. He never said to pray passively. When we preface prayer with “if it’s according to Your will...”, I believe it is spinning our wheels.
Jesus also chastised His disciples for not being able to heal the epileptic. Jesus said their faith was not strong enough. He also called out others that their faith healed, like the woman with chronic bleeding and the centurion whose servant was ill. When Peter rose Dorcas from death, there was no passivity.
The problem with signs and wonders is coveting them for personal glory. This is the enemy’s hand at play. There are also the wolves who have hijacked signs and wonders to earn fame and fortune by deceiving others with sleight of hand.
Dennis Kautz This is a great perspective. I struggle with the more “miraculous” gifts, more specifically how tongues is used in most churches.
It’s seen often that you don’t have faith if you don’t speak in tongues.
I’ve also seen churches make a distinction between tongues as we saw it at Pentecost (languages), versus an “angelic” tongue.
Now in the churches I’m referring to that see this angelic tongue as a sign of faith - it’s often practiced corporately during worship without interpretation - against Paul’s instructions to the Corinthians.
Some would feel like an outsider when placed in that context. Some would even be scared.
This was the case for me at a church I attended for some time. So it led me to ask, “How can this be of God if it opposes what the Bible teaches?”.
I did not see how this practice could truly be edifying to the body - but in some way a group of people praying in this way together without interpretation did seem to bring them closer together relationally. So while I disagreed, I also considered what could be a full definition of “building up” - so I never let it distract my love for this group of people and their desire for the same God.
I was called to serve at a plant I believe has a healthy view on this topic and conforms more strictly to biblical church polity.
I’d say we bend cessationalist but believe that in Gods sovereignty he can decide to express wonders through his people to build up his Church.
But tongues as I’ve seen it practiced in more charismatic settings is not necessarily encouraged - but it’s also not discouraged as long as it is done with order or in personal prayer.
Anyway, really appreciated your point brother.
Justin
@@justhebigidea I agree with your perspective. The enemy thrives on using distortions of God's word against the Church. Having one doubt his walk with the Lord based on not 'experiencing' the Holy Spirit in a corporate setting is one facet of that clever serpent.
I can't recall the exact message, but I was told at most churches, the devil meets you at the door. I believe this to be true. Also, the enemy uses even the smallest difference in doctrine among denominations to divide. This flies in the face of Jesus telling us we would be known by our love for one another and unity. That being said, I get it. I too seek conflict in this manner. It's difficult sometimes to have discernment when to speak out against and when to hold your tongue. God is teaching me but I have a long way to go.
Bricks and mortar churches deceive many from truth, speaking as a whole. Satan knows how to set up gatekeepers to keep many from going deeper or pervert their understanding of who God is. I attend a very small church where the bible is front and center. However, there are still a few subjects our pastor avoids because it may offend some of the members. I understand it on one level, but the truth is the truth. Like I said, my discernment is better but not always clear.
God bless.
Signs were not primarily meant to get people's attention. Signs and miracles were meant to authenticate God's messengers and to validate that the new revelation they were bringing was truly from God. There are only three times in Scripture where human miracle doers walked the Earth; each of those times is for a period of about 65 years, and each of those periods are when God was giving new Inspired revelation. Moses and Joshua, Elijah and Elisha, and Jesus and the Apostles. Those are the only periods of history in the Bible where we see human beings actively performing miracles, and each of those times it was accompanying new revelation. The reason we no longer need signs and wonders is because God's Inspired, written Word has been given to us in full; it was finished and complete with the end of the Apostolic era. There is no new Inspired revelation being given, nor will there ever be. We don't need signs and wonders anymore because we now have the whole Scripture, and Scripture is totally sufficient.
I thought there was only one church. Are there multiple?
@@roshunepp Correct. I meant when the Church first was established.
I think defining things as Matt said is important but care must be taken to not be too specific in what the manifestation of these things looks like. I remember being in a meeting where the pastor was hungry and desiring of the gifts of the Spirit to be in operation and most folks had some pre-conceived idea of what this all looks like. I suggested that the gifts of the Spirit were already in full operation in our midst and happened naturally out of who each individual is. I illustrated by pointing out that a word of wisdom had just presented itself through a young lady who said a few things relative to an issue being discussed. Because it came naturally and without qualification of "thus says the Lord" or something similar, no one recognized it for what it was. All agreed after a few more examples that indeed the Holy Spirit was at work in our midst, manifesting in many ways that we didn't even notice because no attention was drawn to the individual it was operating in.
In the book of Acts, (chapter 2) they proclaimed, and Luke, thus, listed the foreign languages. They were all known languages. How many 'tongues' churches are not interpreting the varied 'tongues' that they are doing? How many have no (or very rarely) speakers of other languages present?
One important fact to take note of is that speaking in " tongues" as the first evidence that a believer has recieved the Holy Spirit and their private prayer language is not one of the spiritual gifts that not all recieve by Pauls' definition of the gifts.
In 1Cor.12:7, in reference to the spiritual gifts, Paul says , " But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal" The word " withal" means everyone.
The initial evidence of speaking in tongues and the prayer language only profits the speaker. As Paul stated in 1Cor 14:4, " He that speaketh in an unknown tongues edifies himself.
The gift of speaking in " tongues" edifies everyone by being accompanied by a believer with the gift of interpretation.
I believe, according to scripture, that after a believe recieves the Holy Spirit with its accompanied
confirmation and prayer language that the Lord will give them one of the spiritual gifts of His choosing. Mine was the discerning of spirits.
I’ve only been reading reformed books and Calvin for a short while. I was in church, my seventeen year old cousin was murdered, and I didn’t think I could bear it. During the service, I began to pray and worship. Without even realizing it, I began to speak in tongues. After that, the heaviness lifted, and I began to realize that all of it is for a purpose. I’m not charismatic, so does anyone have a thought about this?
What a beautiful testimony to the faithfulness of God! He gives us the grace we need to overcome. Paul says that a person who speaks in tongues edifies (builds up) themselves, but the person who prophesies builds up the church (I Corinthians 14), and that matches your experience perfectly: you needed strengthening, and the Holy Spirit prayed through you when you didn’t know how to pray for yourself (Romans 8:25-26). It was just for you privately, not for anyone else. This may become a regular occurrence for you. Often, once a person has spoken in tongues, it happens over and over. (That happened to me, and I was quite surprised) So, don’t be alarmed if it happens again without you even wanting it to. I would just like to caution you that not everyone in your church will understand what happened to you if you’re from a reformed/Calvinist background, and that’s okay. Be cautious in how you broach the subject with people, and ask God for guidance. As a person who was asked to step down from the ministry due to disagreement about similar issues, I know that they can be extremely divisive! May God bless you, give you wisdom, and continue to comfort you in your loss.
-Andrew
This is why Paul tells us in Eph.4:11-13 That Jesus has given to the church Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, along with Pastors/Teachers, for the EQUIPPING of the saints for the work of service. Each of these offices has been graced with a particular anointing to be to the body a mentor in their distinct calling so that each member in the body, for instance, can receive from the evangelist through prayer and the laying on of hands and biblical study, whatever portion of the anointing that God intends for each person to receive. A pastor cannot be all five of these giftings to his flock. Having the 5 Fold active in the local church insures we are getting the whole counsel of God.
So, I'm not advocating for a fully cessationist understanding, but it seems to me that the Apostles mentioned in that passage refers only to the twelve. (compare Revelation 21:14) Paul seems to refer to himself as the last apostle, born out of due time. (1 Corinthians 15:8-9) I would tend to think that many of the gifts are still active in the church, but there may be some which were specific to the apostolic period. Certainly not a hill I am prepared to die on. :-)
Rooted and grounded in faith in Jesus and the love of the Father.
The gift is the Holy Spirit and He knows the mind of God. We are not the Holy Spirit but rather be filled with His Spirit in communion with the Holy Spirit.
We see with David certain inheritance is not permitted because of sins, not in communion with the Holy Spirit, as David was not given the right to build the Temple.
The repentance of David showed in Him keeping the Holy Spirit, but the inheritance was voided in certain things.
Beware of bitterness to keep you from any inheritance, blessings of God in the working in the Kingdom.
We are to be faithful because only God gives increase and is fruitful.
We can be fruitful with God in our faithfulness.
Thank you all for having this conversation!
There is disenchatment and unbelief and "weirdness" because the enemy have learned that first world countries has already fallen into distraction and sleep. As long as he can keep us distracted with his evil temptations, he is good. You do missions outside these nations, the grasp of the spiritual world is much deeper and real because they have attacks from the enemy in a more tangible, unhidden ways, needing the strong use of prayer, fasting and the spiritual gifts.
Religion kills it's the spirit that gives life
13:49 - this right here is the battle
"By your faith be it unto you."
If your theology causes you to say, "I don't believe," then you experience: "by your lack of faith be it not unto you."
Great stuff!
Andrew, sit up straight, you are a child of God :)
IF you don't believe in the spiritual gifts, how then are you built up in the faith? The word itself proceeded from the Spirit of God..
Only people with quilt would fear but god believers smile with joy
The gifts in speaking in tongues, gifts of prophecy.
It seems to me that we don't see the legitimate demonstration of Spiritual gifts is because we don't bring ourselves to a place of need. Real need. Physically and spiritually.
very interesting. Thanks for sharing
No, we (the 2 broadest groups) are not saying the same thing [19:00]
Why not let the Holy Spirit do what He wants to do. Show up, surrender your life, body and soul and rest in what He wants to do. The abuses happen when believers force the supernatural. Faith in God, not faith in our ability to pursue the gifts. Desire the gifts is good but Jesus is always the centre and always the prize.
I want to tell something today i recieved new gift from haven thx god, yestarday was crap i hade fake gift im sorry to tell you about this im afraid i have been prayeng about 6 month about it!
One of the greatest impediments to the proper, mature exercising of the gifts is the church structure and orchestrated seeker focused services. We operate as an audience with no thought of open contribution. Until we move away from this mentality the Body of Christ will continue to be weak and atrophied.
I like these conversations but ... it’s over 6 minutes before you name a Gift :)
Normally I’d have moved on after 5 minutes ... but I like the presentation.
Thanks for these talks.
To teach Cessationism is to teach that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has changed.
amen!
serious about the word! yes!!!
Can anyone give me sources for Andrew thing about on going revelation and healed process of the Catholic Church he mentions in the video early on ? It be a great help
Where in scripture does it say any spiritual gift stopped?
can some please answere this : Mark 16:16 vs 1 cor 12/ romans 12 / Eph 4 ?
is Signs that follow a beliver diffrent than the grace gifts ?
Matt Chandler when talking about things that the two camps agree on he said the Sufficiency of Scripture. Although I thought that Charismatics do not believe that the Scriptures are sufficient enough since they look to God and try to seek out new revelation and new words from God that are outside of scripture. Even speaking in tongues seems to be saying that the scriptures are not enough but that God is still speaking through tongues, dreams vision, prophecy etc.
Apologia5 yup
It depends. If they say that new doctrine is still being revealed, I disagree, all doctrine that does not begin with scripture in truth is not good doctrine, if it is learned elsewhere and verified in scripture then that is fine also.
The Bible founds our faith, but sometimes even a perfect grasp of scripture and a thriving and living relationship with God might not be sufficient in and of itself to be able to faithfully walk in His paths. As an example, on many occasions in Acts the church fasted and prayed and waited on God for answers about hoe to proceed in various circumstances, even though the apostles had an enormous understanding and amazing relationship with God.
I myself have been directed by God directly, Him speaking to me, others in my conservative wesleyan methodist church have had visions, God moving through tongues, etc.
Scripture is sufficient, but its sufficient for general walking in God's ways, and for teaching the truth, and for measuring all things, but that doesn't mean that God doesn't directly and explicitly direct at an individual or collective level today, arguing the contrary would go against the grain of scripture significantly, and would cut against so much testimony from so many Christians.
@@jettmorgan-bourke3516 So if you don't mind me asking....HOW exactly did God speak to you outside the Bible and how do you know that it was God?
@@Apologia5 because what He said brought me life. I had been struggling with self worth, stil trying to ground it in work, and self righteousness, and failing miserably, leading to me feeling like God was goinf to reject me. I was riding my bike home one day from church, super depressed and heavy and felt sick about everything. I started talking, and I got in my head "interpretation", what I understood that interpretation of that tongue was about to come, had never happened to me before, and as I was talking the words "You wil never be enough for yourself but you are already enough for me" fell out of my mouth. I had been wrestling with this issue for months at that point, and these words, which did not come from my thinking, arrived into my mind and came out of my mouth. I started to cry and it fixed the issue I was having.
Similar things have happened at other times, God speaking into my belly, and again I knew it was God because it brought peace and understanding.
To be completepy honest with you, one of these times I eventually questioned, or at least, I thought didnt matter - He told me that I should not persue a relationship with somebody and that it wasnt his plan, at least not right then (I still believr it isnt going to ever happen though). But I would not take no for an answer (twice a deep resounding no! came to me in prayer, and I thought later that it was still what he wanted, and then I think one or two times I got a false word that wasnt Him, but that was because I let myself be deceived by not taking no for an answer. I was never really sure, but I chose to believe anyway those times because they were giving mr what I wanted, and they led me deeper down that path of pain.
So yes, it is a real danger to be deceived, but that doesn't mean that God never speaks.
God is coherent and peaceful and brings understanding and peace and life in abundance. It says that those who love Him hear His voice. Its the same with scripture really. How do you know it wasnt you just putting things together as you read, leaning on your own understanding? We know it isnt just that because we hear His voice.
@@jettmorgan-bourke3516 Thanks for the reply!
You said that you knew it was God speaking to you because basically it "brought you life." Basically because good came from it? However, there are times in scripture where good came about and it wasn't from God. The enemy loves to deceive. What if a hyper charismatic that we would both disagree with says that God spoke to them in a way and then it brought about good for that person. By your standard you would say that is enough to accept the claim as real and it being from God? Now, what if that Charismatic person's experiences was someone putting fake "angel feathers" in the ventilation system and that experiences was what they believed to be from God, from angels and what if that person drew closer to God because of that experience. Would you say that it was from God then even though it was some dude putting feathers in the pipes? It seems like your criteria and standard to determine if an experience was from God is if a a good result comes about!? Or if it fixes a problem that you were having?
You said that God told you not to pursue a relationship with someone. Ok, but again, specifically HOW did he tell you and how do you know that it was definitely God? Was it an audible? A warm fuzzy gut feeling? Lol. How did he tell you?
You said that a thought/word came into your head "interpretation" and then you spoke some words that were true. But my question still remains....HOW do you know that your thought was from God. What evidence do you have? You seem to be saying that as long as something good comes from something then that is proof that it is God? Or if something brings peace and understanding then that is proof that it is God? People get peace through yoga and understanding from many things. Also, what do you mean by God speaking into you belly!??
I don’t believe prophetic churches are trying to add anything to the Bible, or in some way do not believe in the all sufficiency of Scripture. Prophecy is used for encouragement. At my church, God may give someone a word, they release it in an organized manner, and the recipient goes up to receive prayer. It’s an important and necessary part of the church’s sense of unity. Otherwise, church can easily become a service on Sunday where people show up for a teaching and leave, instead of engaging
I think that what you're expressing is the reason for Matt's point about having clear definitions for things. Prophecy by definition is prediction. If people are predicting things without the scope of Scripture, it can become quite dangerous. Your understanding and use of the word prophecy here in your comment, gives a completely different context than its definition. I'm not opposed to the gifts being used to edify the body, I just believe it's important for the global church to rest in somewhat of a collective biblical framework, otherwise it gets out of control.
Not necessarily, Jamal. Actually, there are different frameworks given to old and New Testament prophetic. Paul talks about it having multiple roles. And that does depend on if you are specifically saying prophecy or saying the prophetic. But the prophetic is used to exhort, encourage, and build up according to Paul. It is the confirming or affirming what is already on someone’s heart. This is important when we all carry the same Spirit. Because I should never be so naive as to hear someone give me a word without weighing it. But if someone comes up and starts speaking to me about things they can’t possibly know other than they just have a nudging to tell me, and it happens that thing has been on my heart, well that’s encouraging. And even more so if they give it with something that gives a sense of peace where before I had some fear.
We take these things to be so “mystical”. And I can say I have seen some that I have no way of explaining other than God told the person. However, many times I will discount telling someone something because I am good at reading people and I just bypass it. However, a friend who is not like that will pick up the same thing and not know why they feel should tell the person. But they do, and it helps them. As one of my friends says, to some is given the gift of knowledge and to others the gift of observation.
But my point in that is that it is not hard for me to think that about the encounter between Paul and the two prophetesses. It’s not a reach to think they could just tell, “You have so much zeal that you will not stop carrying the message and it will take you to prison.”
There are plenty of other things that talk about the science behind the prophetic and whatnot too. Quantum Physics is actually coming out with a lot that speaks to its legitimacy. But, certain people in certain camps will also get goofy with it. It always happens, but we aren’t called to act in caution, we are called to test spirits and act in faith.
Everything in pauls epistles are for us in the age of Grace
Great discussion. Would have been nice to have more people involved with diverse views though.
*1 Corinthians 12:4-14*
*4* There are different spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit gives them. *5* There are different ways of serving, and yet the same Lord is served. *6* There are different types of work to do, but the same God produces every gift in every person.
*7* The evidence of the Spirit’s presence is given to each person for the common good of everyone. *8* The Spirit gives one person the ability to speak with wisdom. The same Spirit gives another person the ability to speak with knowledge. *9* To another person the same Spirit gives ⌞courageous⌟ faith. To another person the same Spirit gives the ability to heal. *10* Another can work miracles. Another can speak what God has revealed. Another can tell the difference between spirits. Another can speak in different kinds of languages. Another can interpret languages. *11* There is only one Spirit who does all these things by giving what God wants to give to each person.
*12* For example, the body is one unit and yet has many parts. As all the parts form one body, so it is with Christ. *13* By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether we are Jewish or Greek, slave or free, God gave all of us one Spirit to drink.
14 As you know, the human body is not made up of only one part, but of many parts.
*1 Corinthians 12:27-31*
*27* You are Christ’s body and each of you is an individual part of it. *28* In the church God has appointed first apostles, next prophets, third teachers, then those who perform miracles, then those who have the gift of healing, then those who help others, those who are managers, and those who can speak in a number of languages. *29* Not all believers are apostles, are they? Are all of them prophets? Do all of them teach? Do all of them perform miracles *30* or have gifts of healing? Can all of them speak in other languages or interpret languages?
*31* You ⌞only⌟ want the better gifts, but I will show you the best thing to do.
*1 Corinthians 14:1-5*
*14* Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. *2* For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. *3* But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. *4* He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. *5* I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
*1 Corinthians 14:26-31*
*26* So what does this mean, brothers and sisters? When you gather, each person has a psalm, doctrine, revelation, another language, or an interpretation. Everything must be done to help each other grow. *27* If people speak in other languages, only two or three at the most should speak. They should do it one at a time, and someone must interpret what each person says. *28* But if an interpreter isn’t present, those people should remain silent in church. They should only speak to themselves and to God.
*29* Two or three people should speak what God has revealed. Everyone else should decide whether what each person said is right or wrong. *30* If God reveals something to another person who is seated, the first speaker should be silent. *31* All of you can take your turns speaking what God has revealed. In that way, everyone will learn and be encouraged.
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a "spiritual gift" is a holy spirit given desire and ability to serve the body of Christ. Peter & Paul classify these gifts as "sign" gifts, "speaking" gifts, & "serving" gifts (see 1Pet 4:11 & Rom 12:6).
Is Jesus sufficient? If so, why do we need the Holy Spirit? If the scripture is sufficient, why do we need Jesus or the Holy Spirit?
roshun eppenger you’re separating parts that all act together.
Its like you saying “Is Jesus sufficient? If so, why do we need Jesus? If Jesus’ Word is sufficient, why do we need Jesus?”
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, so if you start your day with putting on the full armor of God, and with an EXPECTATION that because Jesus is in you, He will by His Holy Spirit lead you and use you, IT WILL HAPPEN! While sharing with an unbeliever about the gift of the word of knowledge, as a, for instance, I told the fellow, it would be like me knowing his name was Mark, his wife's name was Sally, and they live at 21 Park Street. He stepped backwards and said, how did you know all that? Without even knowing it, the Holy Spirit gave me that gift and as a result of that encounter, the gentleman got saved!
Sounds very intellectual. Keep trying to figure it out.
Is God's Word still true even when it is canonized? Do we not accept the Word (gifts) because we don't understand? Be careful
When the spiritual gifts are understood according to the scriptures there is little to worry about. Unfortunately, this seems to be a rarity. It is not uncommon for charismatics and Pentecostals to put more stock in their experiences than in the clear teachings of the Bible. The evidence is overwhelming.
Good conversation however not all continuists are charismatic in practice maybe I misunderstood and that's not what was meant...
Tongues in the Bible are always known languages - even when the language is a foreign language. They remain known languages. Common sense tells our reasoning that any word from God is in a known human language, and not a groan, nor a chant, etc. It is always a known languae. When it comes to the issue of the gift of speaking in languages (tongues,) I have never found a church to record, or even list, the languages that people are speaking in other than their own native language. I am not talking about bi-lingual messages that are translated as a prepared message.
There are gifts if u read 1 corinthians 12 and it says to not be ignorant of the spiritual gifts
God has always used man to do miracles
This is cool
[20:00] "not going weird," (as subjectively defined by man) should never be a goal. There is not a biblical position for "not being weird." Both the works of Jesus and the first apostles and disciples were absolutely perceived as "weird," by the secular world. "Not being weird," is used to diminish the gifts and quench the Spirit. We are told not to do this (1 Thess. 5:19).
A spiritual gift is one that allows you to ignore the contradictions in the Bible and think a supernatural being exists that can read your thoughts.
And how may I ask have you arrived at that thought?
I was being rather tongue-in-cheek. I don't think there exists anything supernaturally spiritual; people who do, in my opinion, are ignoring the knowledge of the modern world.
And so You make it a point to watch these videos and make comments like these?
If you truly don’t believe, that is a serious waste of your time ...
@@beennete It is not a waste of time--I think I'll be the arbiter of that. I am sure you are aware that people watch video they disagree with all the time; their comments often reflect that disagreement. Maybe if you grew more comfortable engaging with others who disagree with your religious beliefs, real conversation would occur.
At the end of this video in the few minutes Matt mentioned being spiritually alive...but then distinguished that from salvation so is he saying you can be saved yet spiritually dead?
Paul basically says you can be saved yet spiritually dead in 1 Corinthians, and James alludes to being dead if your faith has no fruit.
Simply put, you can be a carnal Christian (aka baby Christian) and be saved.
Thank God my fruit, and effectiveness is not the thing that determines one's salvation, because then who could be saved and who would judge if I was or wasn't?
Carnal Christian and a babe in Christ are not the same my friend. All believers begin as babes yet in the process of sanctification the carnality is killed off. Scripture is replete with commands to obedience. Spiritually dead is somebody dead in sin. Carnal Christianity is staunch heresy that undermines the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the atonement. Your Scripture references are grossly misunderstood
@@TheWatkino whatever Dave. I told you my interpretation. Take it or leave it
I encourage you to study this further to better understand what Scripture says. Most heresies start with somebody’s own interpretation.
@@TheWatkino I'm a born again Christian. Been one since March 31, 1987. I spent 20 years of my Christian life in sin. So, if I had died, would I have gone to hell?
I don't know the theological background of any of these guys. Are they all Baptists? Charismatic? Pentecostal? A combination of the three? It's not a helpful conversation if they are all of the same persuasion.
i d let the manifest on its own and not give it an open time for it that would give the weird space to come out . to open the mike to prophecy for ,let say the next 15 min, its opening up to crazy stuff.
SPEAKING IN TONGUES PART 2
As I flipped through my bible(Holy), I discovered man may want to use KNOWLEDGE (filthy) to explain the word(living- highly spiritual) and may get it very, very WRONG. As I flipped my bible(Holy), I discovered that on the day of Pentecost, the brethren were all in ONE ACCORD(LOVE, FAITH) and suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing wind, and filled all the house where they were sitting. Now, if a man of knowledge (filthy), picks up his bible and reads this literally, he will get it very, very WRONG. What does it to be in One accord, sitting down? Okay, this is what it means: a man left his house and told his disciples that he was coming back to them although not in the COMPLETE PHYSICAL REALM, but a realm next to the physical. He will COMFORT them and will manifest himself through them by miracles, signs and wonders. Now, how can he do this if not through his SPIRIT(HOLY GHOST)! Yes, his spirit is called the HOLY GHOST, and the Spirit of the father(Jehovah) is called the HOLY SPIRIT. Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit can never, never be the same. The ghost of a man(Christ) and the Spirit of a man(Jehovah) can never, never be the same. They are one in TERMS of LOVE and only LOVE and not power. Now talking about Holy Ghost and Holy Ghost, it is used interchangeably in the bible but it is the WILL of God at these last days to expose MYSTERIES hid from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD. Although the greatest Mystery is the death and resurrection of the great king(Jesus Christ). Now talking about Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit, even Professors of Theology do not know this, unless if they go online to read books of the writer, or still, read this piece. Now evil spirits and satan(third personalities in the world of darkness) is not the same, likewise Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost can never, never be the same. The Spirit (Holy) of the father (Jehovah) is like a million soldiers of a King(Jehovah). He(Jehovah) gives them order(holy) and they obey. His spirit (holy) is also along the tunnel of hell, to turn souls of men back(from the tunnel) and his Spirit is in the form of BIRD. Now Holy Ghost cannot be in form of bird along the tunnel of hell. The Spirit of a man(Jehovah) is at a REALM to dispute any power(DARKNESSS very, very possible. Forces that are neither of light nor of darkness not possible and forces of light(very, very impossible) that will want to RISE above the THRONE of GOD(Jehovah). Now talking about speaking in TONGUES, it is called BAPTISM of the HOLY GHOST. Once a man gives his life to Christ, he is expected to continue running the RACE(heavenly) FERVENTLY until such a man receives most of these gift. One of them is the gift of tongues. Now any man that sits down to learn this gift, has already incurred satanic tongues. He(She) should first and foremost stop speaking, and then go for DELIVERANCE , after which such a person may enter into fasting for God to empty him or her of the evil accumulated (satanic tongues) and for the spirit (Holy Ghost) to give him or her his GIFT(tongues). Now a man(Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Pastor) that DOES NOT HAVE THIS GIFT(TONGUES) is the MOST CHEATED MAN on earth. Why? Why? Yes, now if an Apostle(Paul) says that one who speaks, EDIFIES himself. Do you know what it means? Okay, this is what it means, a man that CLAIMS he is a born again and does not yet have the gift of the tongues is LIKE A CAR RUNNING ON A SQUARE TYRES. A CAR running on a square tyres will TRULY GET to its DESTINATION (HEAVEN) but with a lot and alot of STRESS(frustration of continually praying in English, frustration of continually fasting, frustration of ...), now one cannot and will not COMPARE A SQUARE TYRES with a ROUNDED TYRES(gift of the tongues). Yes, once such a man has that gift, he will see himself LIVING A RIGHTEOUS and HOLY LIFE with less STRESS, but this exclude such a one being beyond temptation. Such a person could still be tempted and can still(very, very possible) fall into TEMPTATION and still be speaking in tongues. A man of knowledge (filthy) will be PROVOKED why will God not collect such a gift seeing he or she has BACKSLIDED. Yes, God is not man and can never, never be man. Okay, this is the reason why a man that had the gift(tongues) and backslide, God will not collect such a gift:
1. The person is already a GHOST to the gift(tongues). If any man will be able to explain this, then God will vacate his throne for such a one. Call all Professors of Theology let them try. Now, here is the meaning, if a man(Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Pastor) who has the gift of the tongues BACKSLIDE, he will be a GHOST unto speaking in TONGUES. The person is like a man that MARRIES (has been given the gift tongues), and later he decide to go after other women(harlot). If his wife is very, very faithful to him, then the man(husband) is truly a GHOST(false husband) unto the woman. Now the woman cannot or may not know that the husband in question is a GHSOT(false husband) unto her, but the devil knows that the man(husband) is truly a Ghost(false husband). Why? Why? Yes, any man(Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Pastor) that sleeps with a woman that is not his wife, has a CLONE(false replication of the inward being) with the devil in the darkest region of drakness. Now what the devil does with his CLONE(false replication), is to keep MANIPULATING such a man at his own will. If he(devil) wants the man to go to the devil's house(club), he will do that. If he wants the man to keep taking LIQUID of INSANITY (alcohol), he will do that. If he wants the man to SLEEP(false) with his maid, he(devil) do that. If he wants the man to ... Now, any man that writes what is written above without the grace of God, will be CHAINED by the devil. Why? Why? Yes, it is a great mystery that a man would be used at this LAST DAYS to expose MYSTERIES of the THID WORLD , when he is still at the FIRST WORLD (EARTH), seeing it is almost twelve O'clock (raptured -spiritually). Now talking about a man that is a GHOST unto tongues before the devil, he is likened to a man(adulterer) who has a wife (virtuous) and still sleeps( commit adultery) with other women. Now matter how the man is GIFTED, his TONGUES would never, never EDIFY him seeing he has a clone(false replication of his inward being) with the devil. So once the man is speaking in TONGUES, the devil will be MOCKING him waiting for him to finish his TONGUES, and then continue from where he stops( adultery). Okay, this is what happen when the BRETHREN were in one accord, the spirit of the son(HOLY GHOST) had to manifest himself through them confirming the PROMISE of Christ to them that he will send them a COMFORTER. Now, if anybody on earth speaks in tongues and CLAIMS he is speaking other languages on earth, the devil will not just look at the person as a LUNATIC(evil of evil), but even worst than an ATHEIST. Why? Why? Yes, the devil knows then, it was to SHOW(GLORIFY God) the people that came for WORSHIP at Jerusalem that God is truly ALIVE, and he(HOLY GHOST) can only PROVE that through TONGUES of MEN(LANGUAGES) on the disciples, so that people from various nations could HEAR them speak and give glory to GOD. Yet, even at that, many as at then DOUBTED, signifying the LEVEL of CARNALITY of the worshippers then. But today(LAST DAYS), one cannot speak with tongues of men and CLAIM to be speaking in tongues except such a man will LEARN it through men. And when one learns a language through man, it is not speaking in tongues anymore seeing the effect that it was meant to achieve on the people that came to worship those days yielded RESULT. Yes, as result, the SPIRIT of God(Holy Spirit) used Apostle Peter to preach(Death and Resurrection) unto the people, and the Spirit of God(Holy Spirit) convicted them and they gave thier LIVES to God, and afterwards most of them received the gift of the HOLY GHOST(TONGUES) and the gift of the Holy Spirit (gift of healing, gift of deliverance, words of wisdoms, miracles, interpretation of tongues(gift of God) etc. Now talking about interpretation of tongues, it is only a foolish man that would want one that speak in tongues to also interpret it, when the gift(interpretation) has not been given to him. The tongue given to him is for HIS EDIFICATION. Men should also work(divine) hard, so that they also would speak in tongues and edify themselves instead of depending on others for EDIFICATION. It is finished! It is finished!
Instead of talking about the gifts, why not just demonstrate?
Denali 96 I like that, more of this please. Demonstration is the way.
THAT is the elephant in the room. Would that not be extremely "edifying"?
People that do just what you ask get labeled frauds and heretics and written off. Some are sure, but some are not.
Sat here with their hot brews whist their is a world dieing in their sins
The only gift that matters is the chief cornerstone where we start building our relationship with Jesus. The gift of salvation. Jesus Himself says that if you want to do the works of the Father it’s to believe in Him who He sent. To believe in Jesus is what matters. To do that is to lay down our own prides of what we think is right. If anything hinders us to love our brothers intimately as Christ commands then they need to be cut out. If your eye offends you then cut it out. When one surrenders their life completely to Jesus, these become so minor to the body. Build on the gift of salvation in learning how to love the Lord your God sacrificially laying down ones pride and then allow Him through the Holy Spirit to love your neighbor as yourself. Learn to do that first then we would worry about these. They would come naturally and individually as the Lord give them. We worry too much about the menial and lose focus on the main theme of Believing in Jesus where he can move through us as He sees fit.
Man Matt Chandler had so much potential and was blessed with a real gift for preaching. Too bad he went woke.
Thèy are à live many gifts. I see them in different churches I have been in.
SOUND
You are saying what is true in the scripture or not for today and saying if we believe all of scripture we are wrong. You are weeding out the scripture you don't understand so could you be the one who is wrong? John says my sheep hear my voice and another they do not follow.
Philosophy of men ,
This is what these guys are.
Just stick to the word of God
'it wasnt originally written for weddings' lololol
I really like Matt Chandler. Too bad he's a Calvinist.
Thank God he’s a Calvinist; it’s just another word for Biblical.
@@Lisa-ty5xw no, it's another word for bad theology.
mcat86
Tell me what’s unbiblical about the doctrines of grace (Calvinism)
I encourage you to read Ephesians and the Gospel of John.
@@Lisa-ty5xw Why preach ‘repent or perish’ when the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish?
mcat86 “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father also. If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: 'They hated me without a cause.'”
John 15:22-25 ESV
“When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.”
John 17:1-2 ESV
“"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.”
John 17:6 ESV
“I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.”
John 17:9-10 ESV
“Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.”
John 17:24 ESV
“And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”
Acts 13:48 ESV
“The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, "We will hear you again about this." So Paul went out from their midst. But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.”
Acts 17:30, 32-34 ESV
We preach to all people, God chooses those who will believe, we don’t know who they are. There will always be some who won’t believe, remain with a hardened heart, and go to hell, Jesus told some Pharisees straight up “you will die in your sins”
In
i dont like my spiritual gift actually
Not even close to saying the same thing
Why This wasteful discussion
I love how they only talk about languages vs tongs as if its gibberish. I know people who speak random babble that makes no sense to anyone including themselves and no interpreter and they say its from God. I ask why and their heads explode. I wish people would see that any gift is temporal unless its a character gift like being a gifted teacher. Scripture does not support a individual being able to heal at will, if that person exists they should go visit a cancer ward or any hospital. Scripture does not support an individual speaking random gibberish and it being edification of the church if there is no interpreter. Scripture does not support an individual giving revelatory prophecy
Faith & Truth I walk in a lot of different camps. I see a lot of the good in all of them as well as a lot of the whacky in all of them. I will say many don’t know why they do half of what they do but to them for some reason it has brought benefit. I would say that’s not always their issue as much as just the teaching has never made it down the line.
I will say the Bible speaks in spiritual terms because throughout history 95% of people have been uneducated therefore it would not be beneficial to speak to them so. However, science, truthful science, is the uncovered knowledge of what we know about God and His works. And much of it is actually beginning to explain a lot of these things as though He has worked the miraculous into the very fabric of creation.
But the two spots I will touch on briefly, because they come up often are the personal language that is called speaking in tongues. The Greek uses 4 different words for speaking in tongues. One of them what we refer to as a personal prayer language. 1 Cor. 14 speaks to that and actually starts off by saying, “Indeed the speaker may not even know what he is saying for he is speaking mysteries with his spirit.” And there are many reasons and benefits to this. One that it bypasses our conscious thought which often causes us to have very weak prayers. But instead God is building something into our spirit that once it has more solidity to it, we can then pray that out in our understanding. And I could go on at length about that. A great resource is actually a book called The Walk of the Spirit, The Walk of Power by Dave Roberson.
The second part I would speak to is the why wouldn’t someone go clear out the hospitals and whatnot. I will first say that some friends came and visited and cleared out much of a hospital and I can’t remember how long it stayed that way, but for quite a long time, the numbers in that hospital remained low. But the question is then, why didn’t Jesus clean out the leper colonies? Well, part of that truth is that it has more to do with the faith of the person looking for healing than it does the person administering the healing. Or at least it plays a huge part. So can anyone do it “at will”? No. Even Jesus couldn’t. In his own hometown it says He was very limited by their unbelief.
Anyway, just thought I’d pop those out there because I know many who walk in these things but have never really sought out the why’s and how’s. And I would say I would probably rather they do them if it comes “naturally” to them than to worry about explaining it. In fact, I can explain it very well, but most of my friends can do it better than I can. I have helped many get rolling in these things and yet I often feel like I function in them the least. Oh well, as long as faith is being carried out in love and the work of God is being done.
@@justinheckel5191 you miss the entire point of what this was for in scripture. Jesus didn't heal people so they will be healthy, he didn't raise the dead so they dont die again. Jesus did many great things for 2 reasons. To validate himself and his message, and to be the sacrificial lamb on our behalf. Hoaxes happen all the time if they wernt hoaxes their next step will be sound biblical teaching about Christ. More than 95% of what comes next is a combination of biblical illiteracy and money pleas. The purpose of apostolic miracles was to validate the messenger and to lift up the church. That never happens with "higher gifted" people. These are nothing more than signs and wonders. A Lord Lord people who dont know Christ. Others who do know Christ try to use these false gifts for an emotional connection based on experience and not scripture. When not if but when outsiders look at this they think it's crazy and so do bible believing Christians. Paul talks extensively about this in 1 Corinth 14. That is why he proclaimed profecy(speaking scripture not revelation) is better than speaking in tongs. Does God heal? Yes. Do people miraculously heal? No or else they are an apostle. Can a group pray for healing and it happen? Yes. Can a group go around healing at will? No or else they are apostles. Same goes for all the apostolic gifts, they died with the Apostles. Scripture is very clear about who did miracles and who messed up with false miracles. People look at the Corinthian church like it was some great thing when in reality as in Paul's letters it was people doing false things and it was scaring people away from the Church. This is why their numbers were soooooooo small. Biblical Christianity is the only saving Gospel. All others are either saved but terrible witnesses to truth or completely false. Faith comes from hearing the word not from seeing signs. Our focus should be the Word of God.
Faith & Truth right. My stance is that you have a hard time having Biblical Christianity without the gifts.
Many questions come up from your response:
What scripture says that His only reason for healing and raising the dead was to validate Himself? Of course people weren’t raised to live forever in a body that remembers sin, that wouldn’t be grace at all.
If scripture says He set us free for the sake of being healed, where do you get that He wouldn’t heal you so you could be healed?
What scripture says it ended with the apostles?
What scripture says only the apostles did the miraculous works?
Where does it say that prophecy is reserved to repeating scripture?
Paul’s Point In Corinthians, he speaks of the gifts, goes into the love chapter, and back into the gifts. His point was, it all must be centered around love otherwise you’re just a clanging cymbal.
Aside from that, this stance is great in our Western civilization with people who like to intellectually break everything down but not act in faith because we might look dumb. You know, Peter was told by Christ himself to walk on the water and he fell. So I doubt whether it happens 100% is a great measure of whether or not gifts itself are from God. More that we need to learn to have th at conversation with Him better. Not only that, but even CHRIST could only do a few miracles in His hometown because of unbelief.
But back to the point, many missionaries would think its crazy to not believe in miracles and the prophetic. Especially when it comes to places that have deep occult practices. Why? Because those witch doctors see it the same as a physical fight. “Tell me your theories all you want, but let’s spar and see what happens.” Because as Christ said, “Wisdom is proved right by its result/fruit.” And as Paul said, “It is not a Kingdom of mere words but of power.”
I will tell you, if it hadn’t been for listening to God in a Starbucks, I wouldn’t have watched some of the most amazing conversion/reconciliation/discipleships I’ve heard of.
@@justinheckel5191 No one is saying miracles don't exist. what I am saying is you can't force blast people with Jesus energy, you can't speak gibberish that is angelic language, you can't heal at will, ect.
that stuff is non-biblical voodoo. It is the opposite of what the bible says.
Read your bible if signs and wonders can be possible demonic deception maybe if something seems like a miracle you should Acts 17:11 it first to see if it is from God or if it is from the spirit of the anti-christ.
Faith & Truth I get it that nobody would dare say that miracles don’t happen. But Christ in us is the hope of glory and we are the fullness of the Godhead on the earth.
Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean that it doesn’t work. And just because the only way you’ve apparently tried to understand it is from the ways that it has been abused doesn’t mean that is the only way it is used. Maybe realize there is more to God and our relationship with him than our minds can comprehend.
I know very well how to test if things are from God or not because I actually am in places that need that discernment.
So as of yet, what I hear from you is you don’t have scripture for what you’re saying.
Very sad!
So this isn’t actually a round table discussion. Having a round table discussion implies that more than one position will be represented. Second, there wasn’t a cessationist there. Third, they only talked about the practices and gave no exegetical arguments for their position or against the opposition. All in all not very enlightening; more propaganda than proofs.
These guys are so arrogant in their philosophical speech