Crushing Cessationist Arguments: With Sam Storms
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- Crushing Cessationist Arguments: With Sam Storms
Are all the spiritual gifts for today? Or did certain gifts (especially the weird or scary gifts) cease?
In this episode, Dr. Sam Storms--one of the foremost continuationist scholars--dismantles about 15 of the leading cessationist arguments. Check It out!
0:00 - Intro
1:04 - Michael's Big News
2:56 - Sam Storms Bio
4:14 - Cessationism Promoted by Shame
7:38 - What are Apostolic Sign Gifts
9:33 - Where there Non-Apostles Who Performed Sings and Miracles
13:03 - Apostles and Prophets Were Foundational Ephesians 2:20
17:44 - How Can Cessationist Be Complementarian?
19:22 - Can Sussationist Consistently Believe in the Sufficiency of Scripture?
24:08 - 1 Corinthians 13 Tongues & Prophecy Will Cease
28:43 - Does Prophecy Compromise the Authority of Scripture?
32:38 - Subjective Revelation and Objective Revelation
34:25 - Did the Gifts Cease in Church History?
39:01 - Debunking the Cluster Argument
43:03 - Modern Miracles
46:08 - Why The Gifts Are Tied To Christ's Session
48:17 - 2 Corinthians 12:12 What are the Signs of an Apostle?
51:48 - Miracles were to prove that the Apostles were Sent from God Hebrews 2:19-20
57:24 - Are Cessationist Guilty of Letting Experience Dictate Their Interpretation?
101:32 - Are Continuationist the Leading Cause For Cessationist?
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Josh Lewis' Church Kings Fellowship Church
kingsfellowshipchurch.com/
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Michael Miller's Church Reclamation Church
reclamationdenver.com/
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Good job, gentlemen! Ex-cessationist here!
I was a very firm cessationist/baptist, but God humbled me. One morning (I was 4yo believer) the Holy Ghost fell on me filled me up (hard to describe, was very powerful) and i started to pray in tongues and since then my serving of the Lord started to be more powerfull.
CONGRATS MICHAEL! Oh I am sooooo excited for you. Thrilled to see what God does through you and your family in this next season!!!!!! Wow. So exciting, I will come visit!! I HOPE YOU LOVE OKC.
Thank you!!! That would be great 😊
Thanks for the fantastic vid. Keep it up guys!
Excited for you, Michael! Praying for Wellspring, you and your family, and Remnant Radio!
Just finished Patrick's book... had the same thoughts :)
Thank you!!
This was soooo good. Going to rewatch to take notes.
Congrats Sam and Michael. 🙏 Prayerfully I can come up there in Feb!
Thank you!
That would be awesome 😎
This is not really convincing. If you compare the books written by Paul before the close of the Acts period with those written after then you will see a clear difference. In the later books Paul leaves sick colleagues behind, rather than healing them and he gives advice to Timothy to drink a little wine for his bad stomach etc. The boundary line is really the end of Acts period
After watching Justin Peters for several days, I needed this! Thank you
Don't listen to Justin Peters
Well Sadly JP is a calvinist. Calvinism is wrong
😂 Justin Peters ….. those cessationists have unbelief and quench the Holy Spirit
@@ntlearning thats completely false. Cahrismatics are the blasphemers who roll around on the floor like people in the Bible did when they were filled with demons and then attribute it to the holy spirit. They babble in gibberish and call it "gifts of tongues", tongues are actual languages and it is FORBIDDEN TO speak in tongues without interpreters. Not all had the gift of tongues. Restorationists (there are no continuationists) are heretics that make false claims and refute the word of God
Christianity is 100% a gift from God, therefore it is 100% supernatural.
Jesus quote "The flesh counts for nothing"
Cessationist believe the flesh counts for something apparantly.
This 'cessationist; idolizing of Self and promotion of Self righteousness heresy! needs to be eliminated from the church'
If Satan can get you to believe the gifts are dead he wins a great victory over believers.
You cannot find a bible verse within the closed canon of Scripture that says these gifts have already ceased.
Brother Storms gives a very lucid, clear, and respectful presentation. His demeaner is mature and calm,and not overly demonstrative and emotional, as is the case with many Pentecostals. He's a credit to his position on continueism.
Thank you for this discussion. It is a question I have had for too long. What you said here makes sense.
Congratulations Rowntree! This is great news as I often visit Bridgeway from Tulsa!
Thanks Daniel! I look forward to meeting you
Wow. CONGRATS Rowntree!
Thank you!
Thank you for your work, Sam.
I am glad I found this. Thank you guys for making this video.
Cessationism doesn’t claim healing doesn’t happen today tho. It just claims specific people do not have the gift of healing. But cessationists certainly believe you can pray for someone to be healed.
Yeah, I know cessationists that have documented medical miracles, pretty sure no cessationists believe that miracles are gone
@@tomtemple69 there are some that deny any miracles today, but they are far from the majority.
@@Jay_the_giant the salvation of sinners and regeneration is the greatest miracle 🤷
It claims the gifts aren't active and God doesn't speak directly..neither view can be found in scripture..cessationism is a,powerless dead belief that denies the reason Jesus died which is so we could have a,relationship w God..its a blatant heretical lie
Not really, there are a great number of cessationists who do not believe that healings happen. They act like atheists, denying miracles.
Heck you described most continuationists. Most of us believe you shouldn't have a title or make a career out of being a "healer", because we don't control when and how the gifts happen, we're just conduits.
This is wonderful to listen to - I'm half way through and my spirit is jumping with joy.
Very thought provoking and interesting discussion! Thanks guys. One question/thought: Several statements were made about praying for healing or for a miracle for someone who was sick, etc. and tying that to the continuationist viewpoint. However, my understanding of the cessationist viewpoint is that God can and does bring healing and works wonders if He chooses to, but the issue of contention is that no one is given the “gift” of healing or miracles anymore. To me, praying for God to heal and work a miracle is radically different than saying “I have the spiritual ability to heal you or work a miracle.”
I know this a year after so you might have already found the answer for this one but just putting this here for anyone that is reading by it. The verse that talks about a “gift” of healing actually says “gifts of healings” so plural on both of them because there is not just one gift of healing. Secondly that if they were the ones that did the healing then why does God get the glory? You could say well God gave them the gift but when it’s not God’s will that a person gets healed and it’s just someone running around healing people that’s not clear in scripture at all, in fact it’s the exact opposite you have Paul leaving someone sick, Paul telling Timothy to drink a little wine with his stomach ailments, Paul in Galatians is in pain and came to them in weakness, why? Because they couldn’t heal every time when they wanted to, it was God’s will not man’s. As for the working of miracles that’s under the same umbrella, why didn’t Paul(who it says has the gift of miracles) just calm the storm when on the boat instead of getting into a ship wreck? Because it is God’s will not ours not the persons, always has been and always will be.
You're very correct, they are full in one gift which I'll not mention because it's easy to fake.
@@Michachu7, can you compare the multitude of miracles in apostles' time and now, ask yourself why, do you want to say that no one has faith nor in good standing with God?
Are the spiritusl gifts something the believer posses, or do some people have to ability to yield to the operating of the Holy Ghost in particular areas?
(Just asking because I'm no sure)
Sure appreciate Dr. Storms' clear expositions!
Responsible Continuation, love it! Thanks for this conversation. 🔥🔥🔥
Wow, these arguments make soooooo much sense. I might be skeptical and cynical, but if there was was a chance of be becoming a cessationist before (which there really wasn't), there definitely isn't now!
YES SENSE😅, Brother I NEED to know this as well❕
I felt like I was going insane, because I wanted just a taste of sense, witnessing a Pentecostal retreat.
I was definitely being crushed❕
I love philosophical and existential inquiry, I felt like I had to kill it for the sake of the spirit❕😭
This was so good, I’m definitely going to look for those books you mentioned
Woah! Big news for Sam and Rowntree. Sam, you have been an incredible blessing in my life. You have helped me work through my own charismatic experiences and my cessationist education. Thank you for teaching the Word faithfully and leading your church (both near and far) so well. Michael. I am overjoyed for you!
Thanks Sam!
'Charismatic experiences' are a thing. And I've seen a lot of charlatanry there. But the existence of a fake dollar bill doesn't mean that there is no real dollar bills.
Wow Rowntree! Happy for you!
Thank you!!
Awesome video!
New level of respect after addressing the phrase “the sufficiency of scripture”.
A miss representation of sufficiency of scripture man. It’s sad
I came out of charismania in the word of faith movement, saw the falseness and almost became atheist while deconstructing. Moved to reformed teaching while reading the scriptures. Had a struggle for a while to accept that the gifts weren't the nonsense I witnessed early in my life. Still cautious, but definitely not a cessationist; thanks for the discussion. JMac speaks highly of Sam Storms' teaching, so what am I supposed to do with that 🤔.
Thanks again for helping me stay honest in my spiritual walk.
Same story as me
Meet too 😄
Charismatics can get carried away with "the things of the spirit" whilst reformed teaching tend to make one "lean on their own -human- understanding" ending up twisting scripture to fit their "theology". The truth lies somewhere in between I believe.
I've found that fervent prayer in necessary in every step of the way as a believer. God does answer prayers -when we earnestly seek his intervention (for understanding in this case).
@@tyndale7711you're mischaracterizing reformed theology
Do you know anything the reformers said? Do you know where they got their ideas and interpretation from???
@tomtemple69 cessationism is false..period.. and admit it or not..cessatiinism is part of current reformed theology
I have seen personally people being out of order using spiritual gifts but I've also seen them used correctly and it's exactly what they are meant to be; Helps. They especially have helped unbelievers and brought them into truth
This conversation was very powerful and has affirmed much of what I have leaned to believe based on my studies.
Wow! What an opportunity Michael, may you be blessed and strengthen by the LORD!
Thank you! 🙏
@michaelrowntree2005 your a narcissistic wolf Brown and l praise God he delivered me from the filth on Sid Roth. Blasphemy of the highest order. Shame on you.
Awesome! I thought there wasn't a show today. Love Sam Storms
Thank you for a thorogh explanation.
Where are these folks with these gifts ? In hiding? Jesus didn't hide the gifts he had . Peter and Paul didn't hide the gifts they just eventually stopped---wonder why ?
can yall pray for my arthritis? thanks bros and sis
God, heal Samuel's arthritis. ❤
I've always found the idea of the demonized as an interesting player in the discussion between cessationism and continuationism. If people were demonized in the NT and they required prayer and sometimes fasting, did demonization cease too? If it didn't cease, the means of deliverance wouldn't have either.
For Western world this demonized thing is alien, but in India and Africa one can witness it's demonstration. The very reason big Hollywood actors and CEO get's amused when some yogi tells their past life and parents details. It's a common thing in India. But Bible do have an explanation for it.
Excellent point
John MacArthur who is a cessationist preached the gospel to a demon possessed woman in his office and she repented and believed the gospel and was saved and no longer possessed.
Deliverance is possible because it is part of our authority to use His Name as a right included in the New Covenant. For deliverance to no longer be possible, His Name must then have been depleted or else our rights under the New Covenant have lessened in some way. If that seems impossible (and it should) then how can tongues in His Name have ceased? Both are said to be something available to believers "in My Name" per Mark 16.
What is the gift of casting demons out called in the Bible?
Great episode
Extremely goox!!!! Thank you!!!!😊
An interesting conversation that's worth considering.
I went through an agonizing journey from continuationist to cessationist, and then on to where I am now, describing myself as "a Spirit filled cessationist". I think some of your arguments on Ephesians 2:20 are why I'm not firmly in the classic cessationist camp, but, this discussion didn't deal with what I think is the fairly simply explanation that those apostles and prophets who weren't recorded were foundational to their local churches in the same ways that our Bibles are foundational to us now: they weren't giving any extra-Biblical revelation that we don't have today, but were simply giving and applying the same message we have today.
I found the argument about complementarianism to be a little disappointing because it's a point that complementarians have to deal with irrespective of this question: the fact is that women did prophesy. So that doesn't disprove cessationism, it merely informs how we should understand complementarianism.
I liked the discussion about the signs of the apostle, but found the answer to be unsubstantiated. I'm sure his claims are better argued somewhere else in written form, but I like the CSB's translation, which says "the signs of the apostle were performed with unfailing endurance among you, including signs and wonders and miracles". I think you would be hard pressed in light of passages like Acts 2:42 to argue that signs, wonders, and miracles aren't at least included in the signs of the apostles.
For me, I believe that the Holy Spirit is active in God's people and continues to give prophetic unction, leading, and to respond to the prayers of the Saints with healings and miracles. But I don't think these offices continue. I think we've actually come into something better: "love", beginning with the John 15 kind of "abiding in the Father's love" and "bearing much fruit to his glory". I think we ALL can pray and God will accomplish great things. I don't think this is reserved for an elite few "officers of the Church" anymore. Like what Paul said, "I wish you all could prophesy". But these great things don't happen "on demand". They happen when we pray according to God's will in love.
Prophecy is simply revealing that which God has said
Which is necessary when the Scripture hasn't been written, the canon wasn't closed till 100ad
very good show
What is the biblical argument for the completion of Canon/Closure of Scripture from a Continuation perspective? I've only heard a Cessationistic perspective on this.
Dudes, I like the show and in this case, subject matter. I always saw this with 2 arguments: We are to be the body of Christ, whole and complete, as is Christ always, even through crucifixion, Ps. 34:20 'He keepeth all His bones, not one of them is broken'. To believe in reduction or cessation is to say we as a body at some point became incomplete. So it makes no sense symbolically. We as the church are not handicapped! Nor in any way should our faith be either. Secondly it takes steps of faith to believe for each gift, each gift a new experience, the first and most necessary is salvation. Then the diversities of gifts of the Spirit. Each one requiring a certain amount of faith and for you to seek the gift. Each gift requiring more faith. Each a new experience. To fully understand each gift you must experience it. It's like an unsaved man walking up to a Christian reading a bible and starting to explain salvation to him. Until you have experienced the gift you are not qualified to speak to what it's fully like('You're Mom is ugly').
This is so good. Thank you all.
Desire the gifts. Pray earnestly for them.
Paul is addressing the church, we can pray for a trillion years for the gift we want, doesn't mean the Spirit will give it to us
First of all awesome video! Does anyone know where I can submit a video clip or topic idea for them to see?
I’m actually kind of surprised that the transition period from the cross to 70 AD didn't come up. This transition period was an antitype to the first Exodus in the wilderness.
Great video! to be fair would also love to hear the counter argument from the cessationist side. Would be great if you're able to invite a guest from the Ligonier Ministry.
They have done them. Look them up. They have a couple
@@dborisov23 that's right, they do have them but not as much as the continuationist and most of the videos were internal discussion. Hoping for a more formidable guest to explain the position of cessationism better.
@@DillonJan gotcha. Yea idk I just never understood the cessationist side ever. I think this is so much an American issues then the global church. As someone who grew up in Ukraine being a Christian was always associated with the supernatural. Witchcraft and so many occult practices are all over the world and practiced. the U.S western mind set is so set on “evidence and science” they miss so much of the supernatural view of the Bible. I don’t get how someone can read the Bible and go away like yea that was only for a period of time.
@@DillonJan we’ll for sure get more cessationists to defend it. We had Tom Schreiner twice and he is prob the leading scholar on this. We do more continuationism bc we openly contend for that position. But we always love a good cessationist chat. Thx for the thoughts
I believe the Tom Schreiner interviews covered the cessationist position well…..
I have studied some on the continuation of gifts in history...is there a book you sam has wrote or some that shows the gifts have continued through church history.
So I have come to the position of a continuationist but I have no clue on how to look or find a good church that does it but biblically. My wife has had a terrible experience in the past and does not look forward at all to going to a church like this. Which is why I am perplexed on how to find a church that is balanced. We will be living In the Tulsa Ok area soon if that helps with an answer.
Prayer and visit church,and pray more, and don't let anyone rush you or pressure you to "join the church" .
Dr. Storms, could you move to NC? 😁 We need you here! There are no good churches in my area! You can start a church in my living room. It will almost be like retirement. 😉
Nooo!! He needs to move to Western PA! 😉
I have to vote for NC too!
We need leaders like him here in Sweden!
There are some great Churches in NC. JD Greer's church is there.
@@amyclutter7259 , as your pastor’s wife… I see this 😂
Welcome in advance to OKC and the surrounding area, Michael! (-- sincerely, a Norman-dweller)
Cessationism requires one of three or all three of these 1) God ran out of power, 2) God's love ran out, 3) We are no longer in need of Gods power in the redemptive wars against satanic deception and the effects of the fall.
Amen! These are great arguments against cessationism. Thank you guys for this video.
When Sam said “outlaw them in their by-laws” 😂😂
I've been to churches thru the years and seen people speak in tongues and never have I seen any one interrupt . Also I know the Lord heals today but I've never witnessed any one with an authentic gift of healing or prophecy.
I urge you to seek the Lord for guidance, he will lead you to a place where healing and the gifts occur
Yeah it's almost like most charismatics are tongues interpretation cessaationists😂
Daaaaaaang! That's a thick book!
I'm on my second listen.. when Dr Storm makes the comment that of course in the early years of the church..100, 200 AD I'm guessing he's talking about, that of course spiritual gifts diminished because they didn't have the written word.. that makes no sense to me. God doesn't need his written word in my hand to teach me his truths. Yes I should turn to the written word because it's so available to me. I remember hearing a story of a man in the depths of africa, or Muslim country, can't remember exactly where but he received from the Lord the entire book of John and wrote it down not understanding what he was writing at the time. God can do what only God can do! About 36-37 minutes in.
LOL, sometimes my prayers are like toilet flushing. ‘Lord take all my ugliness and make it go away!’ 😂😅
When do you post your shows on Spotify?
I love this so much.
I’ve been swinging back and forth with the teaching of cessationism and continuationism.
This talk convinced me that continuationism is correct and I would like to read Jack Deere’s book.
The title has the word “crushing,” and is much more provocative than the discussion.
Yeah we try and keep our conversation respectful and civil
This might be the best video debunking cessationism
That’s sad.
@@Jobthirteenfive135 Why? do you not like it?
I didn't find a better video on it. But there is not that much out there for the case of cessationism from a biblically focused stance.
Check out the video undervaluing pentecost by RC Sproul.
Are you serious? Sam used Bickle endlessly promoting his false prophetic claims and now Remnant Radio has scrubbed the videos. This coverup is material for the Roys report.
@@williamsebald3912 I'm not sure what this has to do with the stuff you mentioned. All I am looking for is Biblical arguments.
This was so good. He mentioned a 2 volume book on miracles. Can u share the author?
Dr. Craig keener
@@jgadhd great books.
Links to the recommended books?
I seen the Mike Bickle endorsement of his book on Amazon. I'm confused now.
Whose book?
Why are you confused?
Sam Storms is good friends with Mike Bickle
Praise God that Bickle would endorse the book.. I, personally, consider Bickle as being a little too prone to the association of ‘Charismania’.. along with Lou Engle, Damon Thompson, and others in that stream as well.. (others mileage will vary) If it weren’t for the strong men of biblical faith and hermeneutical exegesis, in light of the understanding thousands of years of God’s voice through the written word as well as the rhema word before God’s people upon the earth, writing books and teaching well on these things, I’d have denied most all of the peculiar gifting as of our precious Holy Spirit. I hope the association of Bickle with Storms, Deere, Ryle, Randolph, Carson, Grudem, Keener, Cooke, Kendall, and others will further ground him and his influence over the western evangelical church as we know it.
This is great.
I have often said that if you just read the Bible with no context of every theology, you would believe they are for today.
Which Cultist Episode were you on Josh?
It premiers in October
@@TheRemnantRadio Sweet! Thank you. 😊
What sam addresses at 7:22 was exactly what i was guilty of when asking myself why i was really cessationist
I believe in all the gifts and functions of the five file ministry
Are there any churches like this in East Tx? We went to a church like this in Ca and we miss it. We actually read a Sam Storms book as a church and it was great! Since being back in TX it's been hard to find a church.
Can Remnant do a list/directory of all the Biblical continuationist churches nationwide?
Would you guys ever have on Justin Peter’s ?
Absolutely
@@TheRemnantRadio I wish you guys could set that up - or even the host of “wretched”. I just feel there’s nobody who could execute an interview with someone like that the way YOU guys could!
I bet he wouldn't go on. He seems to duck invitations to dialogue with charismatics.
This would be amazing.
Sorry guys,butI think the Cessationist arguments are not that the gifts have totally ceased,but rather that they are not normative as they were in the early development of the Church.I do know any Cessationist who would dare put God in a box,so if God wants to work various gifts through people,then he can.
Well, praise God. Ive never met a cessationist who believed in prophecy, tongues, or any other revelatory gifts. But I am glad your experience is different than mine.
@@TheRemnantRadio In my denomination,Eastern Orthodoxy,there are plenty of examples of the gifts working through people,but it would be fair to say they most often occur in those the Church considers to be capital “S’’ Saints.I have also seen it working through normal everyday individuals myself,both in my denomination as well as other denominations I have occasional visited pre Covid, but the point I was trying to make it that it’s a somewhat unusual event that does not happen all the time. Still really enjoy watching many of your shows as they are a good platform to hear different points of emphasis and I really applaud you guys being prepared to explore so many viewpoints,which I believe your channel does better than anyone else.Keep up the good work.
I know quite a few
BIG congrats to Rowntree! Stepping into the pulpit after Jack Deere and Sam Storms…what an honor.
Thank you Jake!
Wonderful video! Please send to Justin Peters
How much of Cessationism came out of the age of reason. Or if cessationism had not taken hold would the age of reason had risen?
A. An office was a public position that individuals held in the church. It was recognized by ALL believers that the particular person held this office. A gift, however, is different than an office. For example, a person who has the gift of showing mercy does not have an office in the church of showing mercy. The gift is used without any recognition of a public office.
Hence, since many today who falsely claim to be Apostles are unknown by the entire body, but only in their local church community where they function, they cannot be such.
“ I know your works, your labor, and your endurance, and that you cannot tolerate evil people. You have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and you have found them to be liars.” (Rev. 2:2)(2 Cor. 11:13-15)
I never thought about this before: Paul says, "You have people coming amongst you claiming to be apostles. If they can claim that; I can claim it more." (Paraphrased) Why wouldn't he have just said, "Now we all know that only James, John (13 altogether) can be apostles... No one had Bibles back then, but surely they could've memorized apostles' names, and had them written in letters. "If anyone comes among you claiming to be an apostle, remember!! These are the apostles names!"
Thank God for Dr. Sam Storms, and these two young men following in his footsteps.
What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word.
Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary.
What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Watch the RUclips videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
Man that hit me i dont want to be asociated with charlatans but i cant say i haven't seen thise gift in operation or as a core teaching of the Bible
I am not cessationists ,but the problem with me is the exercise of the spiritual gifts ; for example the gift of tongues as a second blessings. Teaching people how to speak in tongues instead of allowing the Spirit of God to distribute the gifts. I have been a place where people are taught , I received mine without anyone laying hands on me , concepts like soaking prayers etc are not healthy
All the gifts require practice and often time coaching to start. Just because they are gifts doesn't mean they don't need practice and growth in them :)
Teaching
Prophecy
Etc
I speak in tongues like you but because I over thought things and was proud it took a brother really helping me open my mouth and babble it out to start. This is more common than not in my experience.
A lot of churches today pretty much stop at the rapture. They don’t talk about anything past that point, so that’s where their confusion begins
It was heartbreaking but o just told my church I’m not returning. They are Calvinist, disoensationalists, complementarian, cessatiinists, and believe the Irving/darby lie of the rapture and think Scofield is the all-knowing prophet.
A response to the statement/question about quality of miracles. I think you should comb the Bible for miracles, and then plot them over time. I think you will find that in the entire history of Israel and the Church age, miracles, even “quality” miracles were distinctly rare. Perhaps in the time of Jesus they were commonplace. Craig Keener was mentioned. Good. Miracles are alive and well through the power of the Spirit. At the Lord’s will and perfect timing.
Yup. This doesn’t negate the gifts of the Spirit today. There are periods of heightened miracles but even that doesn’t discount the gifts of the Spirit being in operation after the apostolic age. Also maybe one needs to broaden their scope beyond the West and see what is happening in other parts of the world.
A good argument for the cessation of the sign gifts is that there is most definitely one gift that has ceased. The gift of apostleship ceased with the last appstle. There are no more apostles. So if one gift has ceased then also others could have ceased. And that is what cessationists believe, that the apostolic sign hifts have ceased. Not all gifts. Also the charismatic argument that modern day prophecy is fallable is very rediculous. That goes against everything that the bible teaches about prophecy. Hope this gives someone something to think about. I used to be charismatic. I thought I could speak in tongues but I was just blabbering nonsense. Tongues was real languages not a secret prayer language. 1 Corinthians 13 when Paul is talking about tongues of angels, he is making a hyperbolic argument that even if he could do all these things and have all knowledge that it would be worthless without love. The whole point is that love is the greater gift. Its not an argument for a secret prayer language.
Hope this helps and gives some clear arguments for the other view.
God bless.
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Right below every youtube video there are TeeSpring Shirts displayed that are ours
@@TheRemnantRadio thanks Josh
It seems like scripture does say that some gifts will “cease,” and does not say that they will “continue.” …that the man of God might be “perfect,” ie thoroughly furnished.
I really love this. I have been from a Pentecostal/COGIC background my whole life. I have seen some extremely questionable stuff in revivals, such as people running into people, various tongues, manifestations of demons, etc.
Even though I have loved Jesus Christ with all my life, unfortunately, I have no spiritual gifts to show, and it made me look and feel inadequate in church. My church believes in the initial evidence of speaking in tongues, but I have no tongues.
Please let me know what your thoughts are. What should I do?
Don't focus on gifts, focus on Jesus- time in worship, prayer, reading God's word and loving him for his sacrifice- even if we never ever saw a "gift". I never grew into my gift until I stopped focusing on it. I started to focus on how I could serve the Body. Gifts don't get us to heaven- Our obedience to the Lord does. Prioritize the relationship and work on "listening" to the Holy Spirit's guidance. Then ask your Father for what you desire.
So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him. -Matthew 7:11
So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him.”- Luke 11:13
I am praying for your breakthrough. Do not elevate a spiritual gift above the point of our devotion to Christ. God is listening and with you because of your faith and devotion and accepting Christ as your savior. Not because you spoke in tongues. So speak to your Father!!!!
I speak in tongues but still not satisfied, nor do I feel it has empowered me that much (I hope I'm not frustrating the grace of God here or quenching the spirit.) I'm 63 y.o., have been Pentecostal since 16. I find it interesting that the Pentecostal church emphasizes tongues SO much (These signs shall follow them that believe...) yet how about healing and deliverance, part of the Mark 16 scripture alongside tongues.We see healing and demons cast out happening corporately in the church, but rarely does an individual in the church have that kind of power; yet Mark 16 gives casting out demons and healing the same weight that it gives tongues. "Everyone's going to hell that doesn't speak in tongues!" In that light, shouldn't healing and casting out demons be included in the list? Most everyone is except for a blessed few do that, usually ministers ad if not then they almost always get elevated to leadership. Just a few random thoughts...Sorry if I ramble or if I'm very negative. I encourage myself in the Lord by stating, well, watch Mike Bickle's series, Cultivating a First Commandment Lifestyle and his two on John 14 & 15. SOO encouraging!!!
@@Alwizcaliteach its amazing that we have similar experiences and view points. I thought I was the only one who felt this way.
@@biggareid Cool! I know 3 other people who feel IDENTICAL. Where are you at in your "church" walk? Me, I feel like church is much like the Dead Sea (and I went to a very lively, demonstrative, feel-good energetic church). Dead Sea meaning you take it all in, but there are no outlets. Like, the first 2-3 years you have friends, family, and co-workers to witness to; but after that, there's no outlets except for choir or teaching children's Sunday school (hence Dead Sea experience). I mean, how many people besides Ray Comfort can cold-call? (You should watch his videos if you haven't. I've learned a lot about how to talk to unbelievers from his 1 on 1 witnessing clips; which he basically says the same thing over and over with some additions here and there). Well, Biggareid, I'll say a prayer for you and vice-versa. See you in heaven! Keep in touch if possible.
Not all speak in tongues, that is clearly written in the Bible
Am currently in a cessation believing baptist church. It’s definitely a solid church but I feel called to encourage the church to practice the gifts of the spirit since there have been many needs from people who experience demon oppression and healings which I honestly felt a bit hindered to step in to do because of their beliefs.
Any guidance would help and this video was helpful to find the right passages to share! Thank you.
Definitely bring them the overwhelming amount of scripturefor exercising the power of God directed by the Spirit to heal and free your family members and if they don't listen I'd recommend going to a church that better preaches and practices what the Bible says.
@@gabrielclymer5340
I’ve talked to the pastor about a few things but for this Sunday I’ll be actually asking for his scriptural support of the views of the ceasing of dreams. He has straight up said in a sermon that dreams are not for today… at the same time he encourages all the younger teachers to be preaching scripture so I’m hoping to hold him to that same standard without being harsh or overstepping any boundaries of grace and love.
@HeIsWorthy777 yea amen!
Bless them Lord with the humility to hear your Word.
It's mind-blowing to teach that given the fact that literally Acts 2 says that dreams and visions are poured out in the last days. And we are Definitely in the last days ever since he said that.
@@gabrielclymer5340
I know right? My pastor had a Q&A at church on a Wednesday night and I asked about dreams, visions and prophecy in the end times as spoken of by Joel and mentioned in Acts. He basically went on a whole story of how he had a dream of knowing where the Keys he lost was at exactly and ended by saying “it could have just been my subconscious that saw it and brought it to my dream”. 🤦🏻♂️lol
@@YeshuaSaves3 ohhhh, please, do fill us in on how things went!
I love philosophical & existential inquiry I felt like I needed to kill it for the sake of the spirit❕
Im struggling with this. I have recently come out Of NAR and Word of Faith. Im trying to unlearn the false and learn what is true. I get stuck on the verse that says we will due greater things then Jesus. We havent. How many people have you raised from the dead? How many demons have you cast out of people? How many people have you healed? Not as many as jesus thats for sure. If we have that ability then why are childrens hospitals not cleared out? Their has to be another interpretation of this verse.
The cessationist perspective is that we will do greater works quantitatively rather than qualitatively.
The continuationist perspective could appeal to the Apostles, Paul healed an entire island of people (Malta) and because the gifts have to be matured in and grown into as well as sought and taught, there is a large contingency within the church to steward such power and I believe the NAR and WoF have utterly failed in that regard, so have the cessationist.
P.S. scripture is clear that the gift of healing is not an on demand, human-willed action. It’s God’s sovereign choice through the means of man’s faith.
God bless
What about John 9:4-5?
Not "give up the ghosts," but actually receive the ministry of Holy Spirit!
All glory to God for His Spirit. I have loved learning so much from solid biblical teachers, only to be grieved to hear them teach straight up to the power of Holy Spirit and back away and not encourage pressing into Him to be filled to walk not in the flesh. Yes Jesus freed us from the power of sin, but the Spirit empowers us to walk in that freedom. I can't do it in my own will or strength. If I could, I would just be a self-help hero. When I'm trying in my own strength, I always fail. Same great teachers have weakened my faith by taking authority away in the spirit relam. I won't need the authority to bind a demonic spirit and pray release of Holy Spirit ministry upon an individual or situation during the next phase of eschatology (the millennial reign) because then the Perfect will be reigning. I am sealed and He is indwelling, when I need refreshing from life, I long for that stirring up and filling after my complete surrender. I desire to press in more. I think Paul taught about the women being emotional as their response to the Spirit. He just inferred, husband's need to be better than Adam was. In my opinion!
1. Apostles - (Grk.-apostoloi)(Heb.-shliach) - an agent, emissary or ambassador appointed to act with the authority of another.
a. In the technical/generic sense - sent one/one sent forth with a commission. (Matt. 10:1-4)(Eph. 4:11)(1 Cor. 12:27-28)(Mark 3:13-19)
*Paul said he was the last one. (1 Cor. 15:1-10)(Gal. 1:15-16)
a. Men, hand picked directly by Christ himself. (Mark 3:14)(Luke 6:13)(Acts 1:2, 24; 9:1-6, 10-16; 10:41)(Gal. 1:1, 11-19)(1 Cor. 9:1; 15:7-11)
b. Eyewitness to the resurrection. (Luke 1:2)(Acts 1:21-22; 9:27; 10:39-41)(1 Cor. 9:1; 15:1-8)(2 Peter 1:16)
c. Authority to establish/set-up church government, order, doctrine & discipline. (Matt. 16:19; 18:15-20)(John 20:22-23)(2 Cor. 10:8)(Acts 2:42)
d. Possessed sign gifts to confirm their message & Apostleship. (2 Cor. 12:12)(Mark 16:20)(Heb. 2:3-4)(Acts 1:5-8; 2:43; 4:33; 5:12; 8:14)(Matt. 10:1-2)
e. Served as Christ’s ambassadors. (2 Cor. 5:20)(Eph. 6:20)
g. All those who claimed to be Apostles much teach exactly what they taught. (Eph. 2:20)(1 Cor. 3:11-15)(Acts 2:42)
*False Apostles. (2 Cor. 11:13-15)(Rev. 2:2)
*Although others at times were mentioned with the Apostles such as James, Barnabus, Silas, & Timothy, etc they are NOT to be regarded on the same level as the “foundational Apostles.” (Gal. 1:9)(Acts 14:4, 14)(1 Thess. 1:1; 2:6)
*(Rev. 21:14)(1 Cor. 15:7)(Matt. 19:27-28)
a. They were only considered as being such because they were selected by the church to go alongside the Apostles on their missionary journeys.
b. The office of the Apostle ended with the death of the last foundational Apostle (John) & canonization of scripture. (Note, once a foundation is laid it is NOT ongoing)
* They were the shliach or emissaries of the apostles and were therefore their apostles.
2. Many examples of this exist in Scripture, Moses was God's prophet but had Moses make Aaron his own prophet. Abraham sent Eliezer to be his shliach to find a wife for Isaac.
3. Only in the context of the original apostles living can there be said to be apostles as extensions of Jesus' apostles. Their regard as apostle was only in direct connection with the apostles not apart from it.
c. The Gift of the Apostleship is given to the church in the sense they continue with the work of church planting & foreign mission fields (Acts 16:4-5); they have no authority to establish new doctrine or government, as there is NO NEW REVELATION, only illumination. (Luke 24:45)
*Furthermore, biblically speaking there is no such thing as women Apostles.
Simply put, one is not an Apostle but rather may have the gift of Apostleship, that is assuming as stated above they do the same work.
@Pastor D
How can someone have the gift of Apostleship and not be in the office of the Apostles?
When the office of the Apostles ended, that's all there was.
I don't see the *gift* of Apostleship anywhere in the Bible.
Are you thinking about Ephesians 4 : 11? If you are, there is no mention of gifts there.
If someone claimed to have the "gift of Apostleship" today wouldn't we expect them to provide the same evidence Paul gave in 2 Corinthians 12 : 12?
Paul said, "I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles." (2 Corinthians 12 : 12)
@@EyeToob because the text is clearly speaking to the context of spiritual gifts given to the church.
@@biblebasics101 Could you tell me which text your are referring to?
Thank you, I appreciate it.
I dont know about other people but I saw a teenager on a weelchair for months that was my husband neighbor stand up and walk after a woman of God pray for him. He is walking since than and he was preparing for surgery bc doctors could not do anything else for him. I witnessed a woman dying in hospital with uterine cancer in the last stages of it, get up and go after being prayed for and she stayed in my church for a while after that. So, i can't even for a moment say the gifts are not alive becouse i lived it and i am not pentecostal. I grew up in latin America in a Baptist church.
What about others who are envolved in false teaching? Do you make excuses for them? Do you not see the danger of cessationist false teaching? They are denying the very words of Jesus as truth.
The observational argument -- even if it were accurate -- is simply not even a valid argument from a biblical worldview. The cessationists are quick to point out to continuationists (and rightly so) that our experience *seeing* the gifts is not a sound basis for theology, because our theology should be derived from *Scripture*, not from personal experience. And yet the supposed absence of the gifts in history is treated as a valid argument for the cessation of gifts. But our theology should be derived from Scripture, not from experience.
Thank God I'm neither in a Charismaniac church nor in a Cessationist church. We practice the gifts of the spirit, but in a proper and sober way.
Cessationism is being defined incorrectly. As a cessationist (or partial continuationist), I belive in the gifts of the Spirit, I believe in the power of the Spirit, I believe in miracles, and I believe in healing. A cessationist is simply someone who believes all gifts are given today except for the ones in 1 Cor 13:8, but it doesn't mean that God doesn't heal or do miracles today. There's a difference between a Christian doing something through a gift they were given and God himself doing something. We believe God can do anything.
Now have three cessationists on to respond.
None of us defined cessationism the way you said. We know full well cessationists believe in miracles. We had Tom Schreiner on for two episodes abt cessationism. I think u will enjoy our dialogue. Blessings.
@@michaelrowntree2005 I wasn't talking about you, but the people posting comments here. Would you have three cessationists respond to the conversation you guys had with Sam?
@@maxxbax9365 not all at once bc it’s too much for one interview. With me and Josh that would be five people.
But…. we would have them separately. Or maybe we could do a round table, which I would be open to. We love having cessationists on the show, even tho we r unapologetically continuationists.
Blessings
@@michaelrowntree2005 A round table would be great. I'm thankful for you guys, even though you're unapologetically continuationists. 😀
@@maxxbax9365 🤣🤣
the bible says that when the perfect comes we will know 'as we are known' we definitely do not know as we are known through the Bible. Also Paul said to keep in mind that HE was writing scripture--so we don't see him saying that people with spiritual gifts are all writing scripture. Not every prophet from the schools of prophecy in scripture had his words put down in the Bible. Very few actually.
I think the main reason for being a cessationist is the crap the charismatic’s pull and claim it’s God. I’m sick of it.
At about 41:30, the truth is told that we don't see the gifts operating like in the book of Acts and then suggest that we should be asking God why not? instead of concluding they are not for today. I agree 100% and realized this 40 years ago. Unfortunately, the entire rest of this video suggests that we do see them and they have been prolific throughout the Church age. Read the Didache and other writings of the early church fathers and you will quickly realize that the spiritual condition of the church today is woefully immature. Then thank God that the miraculous signs of the Spirit are equally diminished. If Annanias and Saphira fell over dead for their little lie, what would happen to the false miracles, signs, wonders, and tongues movement today if the Spirit was operating in the same power among us?
Many claim to have the gift of healing today. The claims of some prominent leaders have been tested and so far, none have passed as having the gift of healing. God answering prayer for healing by healing someone is not the gift of healing. If you know someone out there with the real gift of healing, have them on your show. Keep praying fervently for the sick and for the gift of healing. But please stop the false noise.
Thank God, He has said This saith the Lord prophecies are done, I've encountered far too many of those.
Bless you Sir, have learnt a lot, much, bless.✨
I believe in all the gifts and functions of the five fold ministry and so forth. I have read of the transferable of gifts by the laying on of hands and believe that as well. One things I have really struggled with is when someone claims that when they have breathed on others (like Jesus did to the apostles) they are doing these "greater works". I don't know how I feel about this breathing upon people deal. But also I don't want to grieve or even quench the Spirit by saying there ain't no way that's possible. So what about that? " And He breathed on them..." Jesus did do that. It is written so. And y'all mentioned about the unfortunate things that go on in "charismainia" that can cause folks to fear or even despise these gifts and so on. I don't want to do that! I ain't never really heard anyone talk about that particular thing, this breathing upon people to receive the Holy Ghost deal. Help please. Grace and shalom...
There is no 5 fold ministry, pastor/teacher is the same
And imparting gifts and the Spirit was only done by the apostles
The Spirit distributes the gifts as HE wills not what you want