Does This Verse Teach Cessationism? And a Bit On Bethel. 1 Cor
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 24 июн 2019
- Some cessationists (those who believe that the gifts of the Spirit are not for today) will say that 1 Corinthians 13:10-12 teaches that after the Bible was fully delivered to the church we no longer expect to see the gifts of the Spirit operating. While I think cessationists can give us valuable insights I think this particular passage is used wrongly when they use it to support cessationism. I'll be giving an analysis of 1 Cor 13:10-12 and interacting with the views of some cessationists. I want to point out that there are plenty of cessationists who are with me on this passage and say not to use it in support of their position. So don't consider this a debunking of all cessationism but merely a refutation of a misuse of 1 Cor 13.
Here's the article I referenced from the Master's Seminary www.tms.edu/m/tmsj14g.pdf
If you love this ministry and want to help support me continuing to make free content then please click here. biblethinker.org/index.php/do...
If you want your own "BibleThinker" coffee mug then click here (and be sure to read the page for instructions of shipping discounts and details) www.zockollpottery.com/produc...
I often get asked about what Bible software I use. It's called Logos and you can get it at the link below. There is a free version which you will find helpful. The nicer versions are a serious investment but I've found it to be really integral in my own Bible studies. I also have a 10% discount for you if you use the coupon code BIBLETHINKER8 when you make your purchase. This is an affiliate link but I only recommend it because it really is an incredibly useful software I have used for 13 years and because I can get you a discount with this link.
www.logos.com/partner/bibleth...
When I think of God intervening miraculously in our world/lives, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego have the answer to this question, in what they said to Nebuchadnezzar, just before he threw them into the furnace;
"If the God we serve exists, then He can rescue us from the furnace of fire... But even if He does not rescue us... we will not serve your gods or worship the statue you have set up."
Will God move mountains in our time? Will He raise the dead? Will He open the eyes of the blind again..? He might. Then again, He might not. Either way may I serve Him.
I love that!
This is the comment right here amen
God might not help, but Nebuchadnezzar definitely won't, and a giant statue of him even less.
Amen
No. This is wrong. You mentioned many types of miracles and blessings. It’s sure that he will do those things because he said he would even to the end of days. The question is will he do it exactly when you ask. When we combine Individually and specific moments in time, he might or he might not.
But corporately and from now until the end of the earth we know he will… many times.
My family is Jewish, two Russian business men, came to California on business stopped bt izuzu street, converted to Christianity, they became missionaries and went back to Ukraine and Russia, and preached the Gospel. They came to my great grandparents Jewish village in 1935. Told them the gospel and they accepted Christ. My grandma has said that people would fall down and lie prostrate before the Lord for hours while farming or working in the barn. The town hall which became the church would be packed Jewish people repented and accepted Christ. Few years later the communist came in and destroyed the village trying to get rid of Christianity in Soviet Union. What ever was left was destroyed BBY the Nazi when the war broke out. But to this day their are allot of Jewish familys that accepted Christ. Due to the work on izuzu street reaching those Russian business men.
Wow!
Praise God 🙏
Glory to the Father!
That’s beautiful!!
God can do so much with so few!
When discussing this topic I always ask, "Why would God make a manual, (e.g. 1 Cor 12 through 14), when the very subject of that manual's instructions, would be rendered obsolete immediately upon publication of that very manual?"
This is the objection I always come back to myself.
Great point.
If you were to say that Paul's instructions to Timothy on church governance no longer pertained to today, strict cessationists would be up in arms.
WELL SAID.
I'm cautiously coming out of cessationism and I concur, that is a great point and that was a good vid. I'm encouraged by finding more moderate, considerate charasmatics. Where were you guys when I was growing up?
What lead me to this video and thinking about cessationism today were these verses from 1 Thessalonians:
Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good.
1 Thessalonians 5:19-21 ESV
To state it very loosely, my overall view is that extreme cessationists despise prophecies, and other types of gifts of the Spirit, in the way that they don't even approach the idea that they are active today. Yet on the other hand, continuists easily might take the idea of Spiritual gifts and run with it without ever being careful about testing them with Scripture. I feel that 1 Thess 5:19-21 gives a very balanced view on how we should approach prophecies, tongues, etc
Keegan Ryan Really good point. Most Cessationists I have seen on YT not only despise prophecies, they openly mock them. In calling out false prophets I think we should do so humbly, knowing that any of us are not immune to deception.
@@justinbroby but that’s the thing, God is not the author of confusion. But when people prophesy and are wrong, isn’t it confusing? The prophesies in the Bible were ALWAYS correct, and came to fruition. These are part of the canon. The prophesies in the NT were recorded and we see coming true. But now, what prophesies are left that weren’t recorded in the Bible? If they are relevant why are they not in the Bible?
Amen 🙏🏻
@@Prin_Cess_007 It’s pretty simple. Not everybody who claims to hear from God actually hears from God. That’s why the Bible says to test prophecies. There is no confusion. Test the prophecy by three things: 1 - The Bible...if it contradicts the Bible it isn’t true. 2 - The accuracy...if it is prophesied and doesn’t come true, it isn’t really from God. 3 - The fruit...does the prophecy produce good, Godly, Biblical fruit of the Spirit in the life of the person(s) receiving the prophecy. To deny God still speaks to us today because some people are mistaken is a dangerous precedent to set. God is always moving/working/speaking in the lives of believers today.
@@Prin_Cess_007 test the prophets ... Becuz sometimes in THESE New Testament times they are wrong.
Wonderfully clear, commonsense and right on!!! I have witnessed the gifts over 35 years of walking in Christ and I can't apologize or ignore the realty of experience when it only confirms scripture , and is not contradictory...but I am appalled at seeing Bethal, Benny Hinn and the like damage the character of Christ with these abuses. Saten infiltrates, imitates and discredits....he's a one trick pony. Your videos are a gift to the body of Christ. May the Lord make way for His word.
Amen brother
Amen, Jesus Christ has saved my life more than once. Including an invisible hand literally, physically, stopping me in my tracks on a street...one more step and I would have been mowed down by a drunk at over 60mph. The Gift is still active, mine is seeing holes in people's reasoning, like; "I'm a cessationalist....you need the regeneration of the Holy Spirit"....big hole, and people like the word of faithers are mockers.
"Experience" is the operative issue for me. I "felt" a lot of good things. My feelings did not lead me to repentance of any sin in my life. I heard quite a few things that cannot be explained. I have a hard time getting passed scripture that says the Apostoles, and only the Apostoles could pass on the miraculous gifts by the laying on of their hands. Going all the way through the book of Acts you can logically see that's what was happening. I now believe all those "warm and fuzzy" feelings can be a tool of the devil to lead people into error.
A "one trick pony" haha.... But also a powerful pony and lord of this world
I know, but have to keep interceding for them.....
The gifts aspect of my christian walk has been the hardest thing I have ever had to deal with. As a few examples, charismatics tried to teach me tongues & I see them trying to do the same with prophecy. They also twisted scripture and told me God wants me wealthy and healthy at all times. The hurt they have inflicted by seeking signs and wonders has been very painful. I say this as someone who has experience many supernatural things. In the end I found relief when I heard John McArthur preach. While I am not a cessationist, there was comfort and growth when I heard someone simply read and explains the Bible line for line. I appreciate you Mike for being honest and rightly dividing the word. I appreciate you for being loving above all else. The anger and bitter spite we see from those who have been harmed by false teaching harms us as well. Stay faithful brother. God bless
I'm not a cessationist but the fact that 90% of the "gifts" I've seen folks use have been 100% fake has made me flirt with it 😂
Ask God to show you sister.
I always say I am not a cessationost but practically I am.
True and very sad...there is so much misuse and abuse of the gifts of the Spirit that it is serving the Enemy's purpose in causing many to turn cessationist.
Just because there are fake versions, doesn’t mean there isn’t a real version. The presence of antichrists doesn’t stop the presence of the real Christ.
I tend to agree. The Lord *has* answered prayers for me and others I have witnessed that are just mind blowing. Healing, though, such as a limb being restored or a paralytic being totally healed I have never seen happen. To be more clear on answered prayer I mean things like after asking Him (without anyone else at all knowing about the prayer) for an answer and then a total stranger coming up to you at some point later and giving you directly an answer to that prayer. And other such things. Just wonderful.
Thanks Mike, I spent my life in charismatic churches and am now sorting through my experiences, some good and some bad. You are helping me biblically understand what the church should look like. Keep up the great work! take care!
Another great teaching video by the only RUclips Bible teacher I ever listen to that teaches against my theology! ;) It’s true, brother. You really come across as having the heart of a shepherd, complete with boldness in contending for the one and only true faith. May the Lord continue to bless you, man. I’ll have to order one of those mugs. Keep up the good work. Shared this with our small group leader since we’ve been looking at these issues last couple of weeks. Great treatment of the topic.
I was learning from a lot of cessationists while experiencing really bad spiritual torment and really awesome, deep prayer times with God (I definitely am a groaner 😊). I got the hint that my experiences were not “normal” and that I needed psychological help. It was very depressing for a period of time. Then I finally met believers who actually experienced the same things I do and suddenly I realized that I was way more “holy roller” (as my mom would put it) than I ever imagined. 😂 I always felt like I was going crazy, especially since I came from a non-religious background, but the truth is that sometimes reality IS stranger than fiction.
I hadn’t been able to comprehend this topic fully the past few years despite studying it, but I did always say that the Bible doesn’t seem to support the idea that the gifts ceased at any point. This video really puts each argument into perspective for me.
God bless you. Thank you for this video!
The passage where it talks about groaning and uttering is talking about the spirit interceding on our behalf. It is not our spirit that groans, but the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:26 says that we do not pray as we ought to, so the Holy Spirit intercedes between us and the father. Mike has actually got this part about the groanings incorrect. I'm not saying you have psychological problems (of which to me, sounds like a very unchristian thing to say to you over such a trivial matter), but at the same time, I don't think your groans are related in any way to what scripture is referring to. I wouldn't like to guess how God interprets your groans, or what they even mean, but it's absolutely possible that your spirit is reaching out to God as praise. My advice would be to restrict it to your quiet, personal time.
@@Aquascape_Dreaming I mean, I definitely don’t do it in public. I don’t feel comfortable doing that. It’s always been that way for me anyway, a private thing between me and God, and honestly I don’t mind if it stays that way.
@@Aquascape_Dreamingin the KJV it says 'groanings that cannot be uttered'. My understanding of this is that they are therefore not 'audible' expressed physically, as they cannot be uttered as audible, but rather are within and spiritual.
Anyway, if someone wants to groan in their own time it is up to them of course. If they do it whilst other people are praying or so, it seems to be a selfish behaviour to me.
Man i just love you brother. You've just showed so many things I had on my heart. God bleeesss you and keep working through you.
Reformed semi continuationist gang👏
Just ordered my own Bible Thinker mug as well, Mike. Love your ministry and will continue to be supporting you as long as you remain faithful to the Word in your teaching.
You’re the first person I listened to that talked about Bethel that I really felt you weren’t attacking but educating. I have been a bethel fan for a long time but I asked God to please show me if I am an idolater with Bethel. Its amazing what God will tell or show you when you really want to know the truth! Thank you so much for this. I realize no one has it all. I’m thankful for the truth you shared but also for Bethels portion. I’m so Grateful God balanced me with your video!
I lean cessationist, but I agree with you Mike, the arguments biblically for it are weak. The strongest argument against the gifts today is just the lack of evidence. I just don’t see it or witness it, and the ones that I do are usually wonky and off the wall. I’ve even heard a false prophecy by a speaker at my church. However, I am open to gifts for today and would not (at this time) day they have ceased dogmatically. As you also said ok the video, the NAR (Bethel) is really making me want to stay away from anything charismatic.
I understand completely your distaste for false churches such as Bethel. But is that an appropriate reason to continue to be a cessationist? I'm not attacking you at all. I just believe that the testimony of scripture alone should be enough to influence your opinion on this subject. A lot of churches misrepresent spiritual gifts but if the testimony of scripture states that spiritual gifts won't cease until Christ returns, I see no reason to continue in a cessationist point of view.
Tyler Worrell I don’t lean cessationist because of Bethel, but because I don’t see it happening as the Charismatic Movement would have you believe it happens. That combined with the abuses make me weary. I’d say I’m “open but cautious,” and lean cessationist.
Thanks for your honesty. I think most cessationists aren't compeled to believe in cessationism because the Bible implies it, but because of experience, but most won't admit to it.
If you admit biblical evidence is weak and you still lean that way then you admit the Bible isn't your foundation..
There's a lot of teaching against the gifts so not as many will use them.
Thanks for the video, Pastor Mike! I didn't think about this topic too much until I came across some videos on TikTok of people "casting out demons". And I didn't even think about the topic of cessationism until I heard a RUclipsr talk about gifts ceasing. I have been so confused on this subject for months. And my confusion increased as I tried to do research on this topic. I even started to doubt the gifts of the spirit for today. But now after watching your video, I realize that they have to exist today and not just because of the experiences from others, but the Word of God.
I also agree with you on Bethel and how churches like this can abuse the gifts. That's how people can leave the church quickly and their faith. I don't feel too comfortable with people forcing out tongues or anything crazy like that. I'm thankful for growing up in a (my parents') church that believe in spiritual gifts. I'm also thankful that they are not hyper-charismatic like Bethel.
But no church is a perfect church. Like, when a church is promoting tongues, they don't use an interpreter. Most churches don't do that. I'm wondering what that will look like.
Okay, I'm rambling on. Again, thank you for this video! God bless you and your ministry!
Mike, you bless me with each video. I thank the Lord for you and your work. You always make me think and reconsider what I believe, you challenge me to do my own research on the subjects that you explore and I get closer to God for it. I don’t think you will ever know in this life the impact that God and the truth are having through you on people around the world. Please never stop what you are doing!
Really great breakdown! You made me think of where the writer of Hebrews says(Hebrews 5:10-11) he wants to say many things about Melchizedek but they weren't able at that time because they were dull of hearing. Their immaturity prevented further knowledge that could have been given. So we clearly don't have full knowledge on all revelations that even the writers of scripture had. Plus I just think that someone would be haughty and "thinking of themselves too highly" to believe that in their lifetime they could get to the point where they think they have the whole understanding of scripture known in full. Mike I love how you say you don't know exactly things like unconditional eternal security, or what the unforgivable sin is, or what Jesus meant by we will have whatsoever we say. I think we have to be humble with our understanding and limits of understanding scripture because it's inspired by God who's thoughts are not our thoughts. He is an infinite God with infinite wisdom we are trying to grasp it with fallen corrupted brains, lol.
Thanks for blessing me with this video. I love your ministry and I pray for you regularly.
I just would like say that the Lord keeps doing his will. I just can't believe that brothers and sisters that claim to have a gift like this are living the love. It seams to me that they are boasting and seeking rewards in this word.
And I agree that our experiences sometimes talk to us more than the Bible. Therefore, I would advise everybody that claim to have such a gift that you probably have an even greater need to keep your love and knowledge of the scriptures. But of course we all do need that, even without those supernatural gifts.
It has taken me a year to watch this video - God’s timing is perfect. You have confirmed what the Holy Spirit has been teaching me from the BIBLE. I often feel like the odd man out - I keep thinking, "I'm not a cessationist, but I’m not one of these “5 fold ministry” people either, with modern apostles and prophets.” Bethel’s philosophy, hyper-charismatic, is a sad mess, blind leading the blind because it’s so exciting, it feels good - but it’s a counterfeit, a poor substitute for the spiritual feast available in the scriptures. My spirit is grieved also. As for the conclusion of this portion of scripture, all the spiritual gifts will one day disappear, what will remain is God’s love and His eternal Word.
Yes. Thank you.
Why would you be grieved. There will be no need for the shadow of the truth but the real thing. Believe me you won’t miss anything at all on the other side of glory. I’m with you on there will be no more work though. Bringing scripture to people. Helping them grow. If that’s what you mean?
@@rosstemple7617 I'm grieved for those who right now are led astray by hyper-charismatic leaders; grieved that they're missing the satisfying feast of God's word, settling for a poor, cheap, fleeting substitute.
@@elizabeths5896 me too. God has brought me out of all that mess. It’s taken years. I still have to be careful not to speak the God a benefit gospel. Like, God can heal everybody, but He doesn’t. I’m a paraplegic and don’t want anything to do with my pre paralyzed life. I look forward to the Kingdom of God on earth. Praise forever more. My disability gives me ample time to study and pray, seeking God in all things. If this is my thorn, so be it. God is out for our greater good. Not a temporary thing. God bless you and thank you for commenting.
@@rosstemple7617 so when the bible was completed almost 2k yrs ago all gifts except love has ceased so woe to the early christians because prophecy & tonques healing has already ceased, but in chapt. 14 they practice it. Denomination confuses the the christian doctrine
I have been back and forth with this for several months and I just happen to come across this video. This really helped me and it totally makes sense. There were some things I agreed with the cessationists but I knew that I've seen and experienced things to where what they claim can't be fully true. I agree with you about no more Apostles because they were appointed by Christ himself. I also have seen too much of the overdrive of the continuationists that has made me question many things. I've seen so much fake. This has helped me better understand the difference between the two. Thank you!
I was raised to believe in cessationism which was based mainly on those verses. When I got much older, I had a strong desire to want to help those who needed healing and started re-studying that subject. While we were taught that the gifts were gone, we believed in prayer for the sick and that God sometimes answers and heals. They just didn't believe people had a special gift of healing and could lay hands on them like the biblical disciples did & work. I came to the conclusion those verses did not teach the gifts would leave. And I thought what's the difference between believing God answers prayers like that but not if you lay hands on them or whatever? It's still prayer and God decides whether to answer or not.
Sometimes He says no. It's not every time as I guess a lot think. And no, it's not bc of lack of faith. Very harmful teaching. Sometimes God says no to me and not heal. It's still not the person's decision, it's God's. It's just another way to use ourselves as His vessels to work through. And it's very powerful to bring others to faith.
So I started praying over my kids, family, myself for healing and began to see instant results. One time I was instantly healed of a broken foot. Those kind of things. I also believed we had authority that Jesus gave us over demons and after reading about spiritual warfare, I started doing that & saw results. That one has become VERY helpful and all Christians need to exercise it IMO. We are given them to use and bc it is highly needed! I think bc so many don't, is one of the main reasons the church is in a mess as it is and increased demonic stuff.
When you discern something may be demonic, command it/them to leave in the name of Jesus. I figure if there isn't one, it doesn't hurt. One time I just whispered it (to my son who was complaining of hearing some voice saying God was not really there when he was praying & was shaking with fear). As soon as I finished, he said "it" was gone. There's no "gift" involved - all have that authority if you have the Holy Spirit living in you. They know whether you do or not. I hope more start using it. Most common ones are spirits of fear, lying, doubt, "compulsions", depression, suicide, "fits", sometimes diseases.
All Christians are "oppressed" at times by these attacks of satan/demons as scripture warns - which is not the same as "possessed", assuming you have the Holy Spirit inside. Just beware that if the person the demons leave doesn't have the Holy Spirit (saved), then they will no doubt come back even worse. Even those of us who do, I've noticed they'll try again to test you or just bc they like doing it. But the more you do it, the less they bother you.
There is a difference between praying for a healing and the excercising of the miraculous gift of healing as seen in the Scriptures. I assume, as good Jews and as disciples of Jesus, that the disciples prayed for Peter's mother-in-law before Jesus arived and healed her.
There were instances in which apostles were around someone who was sick or had a physical infirmity but they didn't try to heal them miraculously, though I'm sure they were prayed for. Individual people were given specific authority to perform certain supernatural deeds in the NT. Does that mean that no one prayed for these issues as well?
When a person does a legit healing miracle as seen in the Bible, he *knows* beforehand that God will heal the person on the spot. This isn't wishful thinking or convincing yourself it's going to happen (That's called false faith). They know for a fact before they call on the name, that it will happen. They know because God gave them specific authority and guidance.
Prayer does not work that way. Even Christ prayed for something to happen, but then said "Not my will but thine be done," and what He wished for didn't happen. The Father's will did instead. When we pray, we are *asking* God, if He wills, to do a thing. When someone performs a healing miracle, they are *commanding* the physical/spiritual reality to change under a specific delegated authority from God.
We do not have the same delegated authority for the specific task of supernatural healing. But we *are* priests of the Most High with a Great High Priest in Heaven and so can and should make intercessory prayers. But we must leave the result to God rather than presume to act as if He has already guaranteed the result to us.
I don't know about you, but I have never gotten a direct message from God granting special authority to do certain things. Neither can I find in scripture where such was explicitly granted to the whole Cburch throughout time. So, I pray.
The same is true for the casting out of demons. The times where we see people casting spirits out of other people, it was always being done by Christ or one whom we have a record of them receiving a specific granting of authority. When Scripture speaks to believers in general, howeger, it simply speaks of resisting Satan and his whiles in *your own* life over which you have a certain authority and control. However, it says nothing about taking it upon oneself to *command* Satan or demons in other people's lives. That is more authority than we possess.
I have learned so much in the past 15 years as a follower of Christ. The LORD brought me to a Vineyard church, where I have come to realize and EXPERIENCE firsthand that the gifts of the Spirit(charismata) are SITUATIONAL quite often. John Wimber has solid Bible teachings on this subject. 1st Corinthians 12-14 context “When the church comes together” To each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good-manifestation is based on Latin/phanerosis in Greek-meaning FESTIVE HAND/DANCING HAND-GOD says “Ok, for this one here’s a gift of healing in this situation, here’s a prophecy for this person to share, here’s a tongue and interpretation to another, here’s a word of knowledge to another.” If you are open to GOD using you in any given situation HE will equip you for what is needed for that moment. I have so many encounters where GOD put someone in my path that needed to be ministered to and I knew I could do nothing without JESUS. A woman received healing of an eye condition and I was given a word of knowledge that her condition was due to a broken relationship between her and her sister(which I knew none of that information from her during our interaction. I shared that information with her and she was astounded that I knew that. Because GOD had said so, I told her that GOD would completely heal her condition if she forgave her sister and tried to reconcile with her. I shared with her GOD’s forgiveness for her through JESUS’ death on the Cross and she said she trusted JESUS as her LORD and Savior. I saw her a week later and she was completely healed and she had reconciled with her sister. GOD IS SO AWESOME!!
Thankful for your testimony! ❤
Knowing this reply is 3yrs later....How did you first get started in deliverance? I'm aware of demons oppressing & possessing.
50yrs I believed I couldn't do these things (that it was a gift someone had) until a demon I couldn't see in my bosses home, began to Growl deep & loud audibly! "What was that?" I said spinning around to see.
Her dogs now barking hysterically at the corner ceiling. 👺 It was the only time I commanded it to leave & never come back in Jesus name. The dogs stopped barking & never heard that growl again.
But, I'd love to help people. I just wouldn't know where or how to start. 🎉 How did you begin with a person? Do they need to be in agreement with what you're doing?
@@jameswoodard4304And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mark 16:17-18 KJV
I believe that all gifts are still valid
and that Jesus gives us his gifts
to glorify and for edification for
His church
To strengthen the church and glorify God.
Amen there are a lot of people that are being set free from demonic possessions and what not.
@@daughteroftheking3220that isn't a spiritual gift, all demons are subject to the name of Jesus... Not an argument
Don't try to understand and interpret the Scriptures from the logical point of view to support cessationism. The Scriptures does not endorse that view. What Paul is writing in 1 Corinthians 12-14 to reach the cessationism. The gifts are for today in the Church. Because the Church today doesn't exhibit the gifts it does not mean that the gifts are ceased. I would say that today's Church doesn't not exhibit any faith. Faith is now forgotten element in today's Church. That is the problem.
@@SuperLivingword so no one has the Holy Spirit? People can conjure up their own faith ? What Bible are you even reading
Brother thank you! I was studying that topic And you helped me a lot.
keep it going, thats the best way to seek the truth, going to the base, to the original🙌🏻
God bless you🙏🏻
I know this is a really old video comparatively, but cannot bypass saying thank you. As one raised in a hypercharismatic environment that had my eyes opened to the dangers in the teachings, I have been spending the last eight years or so rebuilding my faith on the truth in His Word. Upon first leaving my old church and hypercharismania behind, it was hard not to go extremely guarded and full-on cessationist. My spirit had become so heavy and, honestly, deeply wounded by all the years of deception and I did not even want a hint of the old teachings touching me. But, as I have continued to ponder what the Word has to say on this and match it to the way I have seen God move miraculously in my own life ( especially concerning His providence), I cannot say I don't believe He continues to move in our midst in some unexpected and unexplainable ways. I think the key is remembering not a bit of it is something we can do or "activate" ( my old church was fond of this word, too.). It is all in His sovereignty, for His purposes. Ours is not to demand what He will do but rather to humbly ask and say, "Your will be done". We should keep our hearts open to how He chooses to demonstrate His will, but never seek to manufacture it. Appreciate greatly the balance you shared here. It is rare to find.
I went through the exact same scenario. After leaving the hyper charismatic world, I wanted nothing to do with it and spent most of my time just digging into scripture and swinging hard in the other direction. I have since come back a little on my beliefs in relation to the charismatic world. (I'm on the same page as Mike Winger). I 100% agree in that God is capable of doing anything even today and we can be a part of miraculous things that God wants to do. But it has nothing to do with us activating some supernatural ability of our own. It's all about walking with the Lord, following His leading, and remembering that no matter what happens, it's all about His will be done. Note: I have prayed for someone that got healed. It was one of the coolest God moments I have ever been a part of. But by no means do I think it was anything in my own power that accomplished the miracle. He just led me and a few other people to pray that person.
This was my experience as well. I think people tend to swing from one extreme to another. I stopped considering cessationism after reading a book (I forget the name). And frankly, I have never seen any scriptural evidence of cessationism. It has to be read into passages, in my opinion.
❤
I was in my church standing in the back ( I may have been late). A friend of mine, who happens to be Jewish and speaks Hebrew, came and stood next to me.. one of the brother's was speaking in tongues and she bends over to me and says, 'I didn't know Ron can speak Hebrew'.. I later asked his daughter if her dad spoke Hebrew and she said, 'No, my dad doesn't speak Hebrew'...
JS
That's fascinating
Did your Hebrew speaking friend interpret what the brother was saying?? Would be interesting to know ♥️ it is a gift I have(divers tongues) so I always love seeing how God uses people with this gift!
I have a very similar experience.
While I was waiting to talk to two leaders at my previous church, I overheard them praying in tongues, to which I'm used to. I was, however, shocked to hear one of the leaders begin to pray in Hebrew. Now, I don't speak Hebrew, but I was raised in a Messianic congregation for many years and I am accustom to hearing Hebrew spoken. After, I asked my leader, if she spoke Hebrew, to which she replied, "No, I don't."
@@michaelwood4494 wow. I love that. God is TRULY amazing. 😍😍😍😍💜💜👍
@@sarajohnson805 I didn't think to .. I should have. ☺
FIRST AND FOREMOST I THANK GOD FOR HIS WORD but i d also like to thank you MIke for doing what you do on this channel and in your videos!!!!.Ever since I discovered your channel I love to watch at least one of your videos a day. especially with coffee, gotta get me one of those mugs! lol You have really helped me to understand GOD's Word more and more so thankyou and may our Lord Christ Jesus bless you and your family!!!!
Years ago in a season of backslidding i was restored back to the Lord, received Supernatural deliverance due to an unknown Tongue followed by Words in a church, i don't think anybody saw what happened because i entered at the back. The people were standing, worshipping. I prayed: Lord if You are here please speak now. Immediately someone in the front started in a Tongue, a second person followed with Words and i was delivered, it was a miracle. The Lord has been very merciful to me in my life, He also delivered me from an addiction later. I prayed: Lord i don't want this anymore. I felt a power through my body and saw a vision of ropes being cut from my wrists, and i was instantly free, cravings gone. Also, i was healed completely from serious medical condition after prayer.
I am shocked to see some of the things happening in "charismatic" churches. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit will glorify Jesus, are to edify the church, not to bring fame and money to a pastor. The kindness of the Lord leads to repentance, humility, thankfulness, a desire to serve Him, lead a holy life, ...
Who was there to translate your tongue? What language was it?
@@tymurphy8564 Most people that are involved in tongues and the interpretation of tongues will tell you that the tongue is not usually a known earthly language. People that interpret tongues will usually tell you it is not the translation of an earthly language, but is instead understanding of the what the Holy Spirit has to say. So one person obeys by speaking in tongues, and the other obeys by giving the interpretation provided by the Holy Spirit. This is why what is said needs to be tested according the Scriptures, and we see false things start to creep in if that care is not duly taken. But I have also seen miraculous deliverances come in this way. Rozz Nel's testimony rings true to me.
@@keithwood6459Not all tongues are earthly languages
Jesus is great so glad for your deliverance and salvation
At last! A voice of reason in a sea of madness about cessationism and continuism, thank you and praise God! My beliefs before God are perfectly in line with what you say. 🙌❤🙌
Sea of madness? You say it like there's a big battle about it, but the truth is 99% of the internet is always calling cessationists heretics and making long videos "exposing" them, and defending their speaking in tongues nonsense gugu gaga.
This subject has really done my head in over the years since I was saved. And I've literally cried over it, that I can't come to a place of confirmation... Every time I've gone over 1 Corinthians 13; I always come to the conclusion that (perfect) is Jesus...
Yeah you aren't the only one and also same.
Same here...
We will be made perfect when the Perfect One comes, so even though I read it that way, too, I thought of Mike's interpretation as much the same.
Confirmation? What do you mean?
Teleios never means Jesus in the new testament tho ..
Do you think that perfect means Jesus every other time its used?
God bless you Mike. I know it takes a lot of patience and stamina to do what you do, which is to reveal the truth of God's Word against all manner of faulty reason, philosophies, and doctrines. You do it in such a way as to be respectful, but faithfully firm in truth, to be considerate of other views, but logical and wise, to be corrective and reproofing, but in a spirit of love. Thank God for refreshing.
A great testimony that I watched is Duane Miller, a Pastor that did not believe in healing. He had an injury to his vocal cords and eventually stopped preaching because his voice was so terribly difficult to listen to. He was asked to teach a Sunday school class and reluctantly did so. While reading Psalm 103 he was explaining that the Psalm , was not referring to a physical healing but a Spiritual one. When he got to the verse, He redeemed my life from the Pitt, there was a tiny change in voice that’s was barely noticeable, as he kept reading his voice got more and more clear and he broke down sobbing and thanking the Lord. The Lord ,healed him in front of all those people while he was explaining the text wrongly. Powerful testimony!
I heard the same recording. It was wonderful! Although he was teaching that God does heal, not that he doesn’t.
I don't think you're supposed to sell prophesy or spiritual gifts, but $44.95?? That costs more than a genuine leather bound Bible. 🤨
Snake oil salesman.
how about selling blood moon bilge that never got off the ground?
I think you’ve hit it perfectly Make Me!!! $10.95 would be better....just kidding!
yeah that this dude doesn't know what he's talking about because every time that someone tries to show me some gifts or something they look like demons and they feel like demons it doesn't feel like this guy that I know Jesus Christ I tell you that I know what Jesus feels likeI start shaking and drop it on the floor and speaking some weird gibberish and all that stuff the power of tongues is just a languageyeah and then he wants to charge you for stuff why do people want to charge for the gospel and say they're real Christians I don't charge for it I don't make people pay for my information that I give out that's just wrong you're supposed to teach the gospel for free
@@jholyroller6048 The Corporate Church in many cases have gone South. I just pray fot all of them. I'm afraid I have missed the "mark" on too many occasions. Love ya!
This is really great. I define myself as a cessationest having spent much time in the NAR, this was a great, balanced view and I appreciated you using the Word (Sola Scriptoria) to teach, and define terms. Lovely. I will gladly continue wrestling with this. Blessings Mike! 🌷
I love your channel, you're informative and thought provoking. I preach that by earnestly contending for the faith it is an act of love and that it must be done in love, love should be a lifestyle. You exemplify this in your videos. Thank you for what you do. God Bless!!
Comparing this NAR stuff to continuationism is like comparing Calvinism to Westboro Baptist Church. Just because they use similar language and terminology does not link them.
Sad.. all NAR are Continuationist . Don't have enough faith in Christ alone.. Needing healing signs dream wonders ..that established the church that is for the Jews not Gentiles
Gentiles have the word of God. And yes God perform miracles everyday.. But does not give anyone the power to heal.. HE heals in HIS will and Providence.. Great to pray.. if it's in HIS WILL ...prayer will be answered
So clear and helpful! You’ve blessed my life and given me clarity on so many question marks.
As someone who loves the Lord with all of my heart with a very emotional love, I had so many struggles with this topic. When I was born again I fell into the hands of pentecostals who spoke in tongues, did wonders and said things like "God showed me this and that about you...". When I prayed to God to receive the gift of tongues, I received tongues, even real languages that you could look up.... however, they turned out to be demonic. At first I denied it, but the more I spoke in those tongues, the more my lips started hissing and doing other weird things. Later it really turned out to be demonic (although I was always seeking God's face). This devastated me so much that I repented, turned away from ALL pentecostal signs. I was still deceived by demons though who gave me biblical dreams and visions a lot (I come from an occult past). Everytime someone would claim that dreams, visions and tongues still exist, I'd get mad and defensive, due to jealousy in my heart, because I couldn't wrap my head around the fact that I desperately love God with all that I am but He allowed me to get a demonic tongue while others out there get the "real" thing. This thought would just crush my heart and the fact that I only get demonic dreams but never dreams from God, while He keeps showing Himself to others... I don't know, I just had a lot of jealousy over those things so I denied those things and tried to find proof that they don't exist anymore. However, the more I study the bible the more I come to the conclusion that God still does miracles. Not sure about the tongues-part but everything else is indeed biblical
The function of biblical tongues was to spread the gospel throughout the world, so that missionaries could speak with people who hadn't heard the gospel, without the need to learn the language. Tongues isn't some continual outpouring of the Holy Spirit (yes, initially there's an outpouring of the Holy Spirit in order to receive the gift, but after that your own spirit uses the gift) and it was only permitted in church for interpreting when a speaker who did not have the gift was visiting the church. This is why Paul said he'd rather speak one word in a known tongue, than one thousand in an unknown tongue. Tongues weren't meant for self edifying prayer, either. Paul mentions praying in tongues, but he's talking about praying out loud during a church service. The same above applies for spoken prayer, there must be an interpreter, and the context again, must be a visiting speaker who does not know the local language. 'For when I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful', so, here Paul is saying that because the gift of tongues is a spiritual gift, it can be used whenever the holder wishes it, so if someone is praying in an unknown tongue when they could easily speak a language everyone understands, they are being unfruitful, even though their spirit is using the gift. Paul was writing to the church in Corinth about this because he had received reports that people were misusing their gifts and using them to portray superiority over others. Not everyone had the gift of tongues. This is the reason why he emphasized love so much: 'make love your aim'.
Modern churches use tongues as a way of trying to reinforce their faith through signs, but tongues was never intended as a sign to believers, but instead to unbelievers who would receive the gospel from missionaries with the gift.
Imagine back then seeing a foreigner who looked very different from you just walk into the town or village and start speaking to you in your native tongue about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Hope this helps.
Keep praying Holy Spirit will.give you a sure word about His gift of tongues tongues do not come from demons they may mimik but Satan mimiks the whole church not just tongues .Tongues come by way of the Holy Ghost to this very day and Satan and his ministers of righteousness hates it and will say its demonic from Satan and Satan loves it he wonts to still it he don't care if one may say tongues come from him then you won't speak tongues he's cleaver but read and study your bible .tongues are of the Holy Ghost dot let Satan still your gift if you have the gift .praise God In Jesus Christ name now when I pray I pray with my spirit and my understanding in tongues I pray a lot longer u praise and worship ABBAFather God In Christ name in tongues and understanding .
You mentioned you renounced Pentecostal things. Did you renounce your occult past? And perhaps sought help with this?
@@Aquascape_Dreaming The Bible never says that tongues were intended for missionary purposes. Speaking in tongues is not a language course.
I don’t think God would ‘allow you to get a demonic tongue’. Sorry, that just doesn’t sound right or biblical at all.
Good afternoon Pastor Mike thank you for reporting all that you do . Bringing truth. Prayers for you to always inspire and inform with a loving heart.
Thank you for doing your part keeping the body of Christ on its rails. At first I thought you were just an accuser of the brethren but I found out that’s not your goal or heart the more I listen to you I’m glad I gave you a chance and continued listening.I do pray in tongues at home not church put it aside to use my time focusing more in reading the scriptures but recently began to pray in the spirit more just because I remembered that we know not how to pray as we ought but the spirit himself helps of weaknesses. Also Paul said I thank god I speak in tongues more than you all. Honestly I was overwhelmed by how to pray for family members and the body of Christ as well as the state of the world dropped my head and opened my mouth in faith trusting the lord. I first could tell the hand of the lord take the weight I was carrying. Prayed it through until it lifted. Next time I prayed felt nothing but only my heart was more still. Next time prayed felt nothing great got up walked away then a small teaching for me dropped in my heart. All I can say is like learning on my knees as I go so far. Just trusting him like a child knowing the Holy Spirit is my teacher. Do I totally understand it? ... no but I know I’ll understand more as I walk with him in it in faith knowing he heard my simple prayer lord help me to pray for the body of Christ, world and family.
Mike I think your comment around 40:17 to 40:40- is spot on in regards to properly reacting to those practices at Bethel. Cessationism is not the cure...
I used to teach at a Church a few years ago and I was tasked with doing some classes using books that came from Bethel. I enjoyed reading the books, but when it came time to teach what was in the books I ran into some pretty tough issues. I would have loved to learn everything I am learning now back then. Overall I liked the bulk of what those books had to say except for the 15 or 25 percent that was a little wacky.
Thanks for this video I am learning so much from this ministry
Thank you for sharing with us how to always think biblically and all the work that goes into it. Your videos are a great blessing!
I am so glad you spoke about this, Mike! I've been looking into cessationism and John Macarthur because of his book, Strange Fire...I am specifically focused a lot right now in my studies on Bethel, and the extreme signs and wonders movement because I see little bits and pieces making their way into my church. (Most definitely not through my pastor or the messages, but in some of the theologies and practices of some of the church members). I definitely see that I agree with you on the interpretations of 1 Corinthians 13 and this really helped to clarify WHY as opposed to me just believing what I believe if that makes sense. Anyway, thank you so much for your ministry, it has been helping me be able to reach out to others in a loving and godly way in their understanding of the gospel.
Read Holy Fire by RT Kendall (A response to John MacArthur)
Read authentic fire by Michael Brown
As someone that has experienced healing and prayers answered for those needing healing, being baptized in the Holy Ghost, and hear God speaking to me from time to time, it’s difficult to relate to those in the Cessationism especially being a witness and experienced them first hand. It’s especially a conviction to doubt experiences when they’re as real as me typing this. At the same time, what you’ve stated about Bethel is dangerous theology and unbiblical (goes without saying).
With all this being said, it’s true that some make the interpretation of Scripture more than what it is. That’s why we must refer to context and daily prayer, allowing God to use us as He wills.
Thank you for what you do brother, I appreciate your candor and the hard work you put into this.
Thanks Mike for such a balanced presentation of this very divisive issue, may God give you more wisdom and grace. God bless.
Thank you brother Mike Winger you have put it in the words that I view this topic as. I completely agree with you. May the Lord bless you for your service.
Hi Mike, love your videos. I am pastor of a small home church, was once very active in the charismatic movement. I saw the misuse of “so called” gifts and I saw the real thing. In my view, the gifts a given on need to use bases. If you or the church need on of the gifts, the Holy Spirit will give them. I believe that the gifts will be use during the tribulation in a way we have never seen before as a sign to unbelievers and Christian’s a like
Amen
I just dont understand how a person can say they are a devout believer and yet say they are cessationist... I have witnessed too many people being delivered- I have witnessed the gifts firsthand from healings, tongues, and deliverances.
There was no "phase, era or time period for gifts, they exist always.
More importantly (as the gifts can be falsified and copied), the Bible shows the gifts have not ceased: Joel 2.28-29, quoted by Paul in Acts 2.17-18. The context of the passage in Acts is that this was spoken at Pentecost to the crowds who gathered and claimed they were drunk. One could argue that Pentecost marked the last days, and indeed it did mark the start of the last days, but it's clear further on in the passage (darkening of the sun, etc, which clearly relate to the Day of Lord, as in Matthew 24.29, Isaiah 13.10, Zechariah 14.7, etc) that the "last days" Paul refers to are much later than Pentecost, and that they relate to the events in Revelation. So, even long past the Pentecost the gifts to the time portrayed by Revelation, believers will operate in the gifts of the Spirit.
Same man. I've seen too much as well. I've personally experienced too much. I used to be a cessationist. At some point in my walk I backslid into alcoholism. The day that God delivered me from alcoholism was the last day I was a cessationist, because while I was sitting in bed He gave me a word of knowledge and a prophetic vision telling me that He was going to "restore" me, among other things. That day I was miraculously healed and to this day, on occasion, I still get words of knowledge. God is truly amazing.
This doesn't mean that there isn't a counterfeit holy spirit, though. Things transpiring in the NAR are quite troubling, and it further grieves me that it gives more credence to cessationism in the eyes of many. All we can do is focus on Jesus.
Same here. I'm not necessarily convinced that each person is granted a singular given gift (could be true, certainly), but I've seen enough to know that God does speak in tongues of man and does speak prophecy.
Y'all in this thread need to high-tail it with these healers to the children's cancer wards. Those kids are dying...fire all the doctors in the world and close down the pharmacies.
Just remember, Satan, your adversary, can appear as an angel of light. He knows every bit of scripture and would love to keep you speaking gibberish and acting drunk and seeing visions that are not in accordance with scripture. God is the healer. No one else.
AMEN
I really appreciate you man...I grew up in the charismatic movement, and ur balanced teachings have really helped me to gain proper perspective. Just wanted to take a second to say thank you!!
Another great job illustrating your point and a thoughtful analysis on scripture. Full disclosure: I'm neither of the charismatic movement nor a continuationist, but your analysis has given me some meat to chew and I will definitely devote bible study to this topic. Further I appreciate your video ministry. There are many teachers I listen to online that I disagree with on doctrine, John Macarthur the Calvinist being just one, and yet I can be edified when speaking of other biblical matters.
When it comes to the argument of continuationism, I am still skeptical but open to it. Some questions I have, which is perhaps due to ignorance, is that I have yet to see anyone display the spiritual gifts of tongues as described on the day of Pentecost when the Apostles received the Holy Spirit. Another is that I have yet to see any prophecy, outside of holy scripture, that has accurately predicted future events beyond something vague. Even in the cases of powerful healing, I don't conclude that this is a work of a spiritual gift of healing as displayed by Christ and his Apostles and other believers of the first century church. It could easily be attributed to the powerful prayer of the righteous in line with God's will. Because for any example of a miraculous healing there are many who don't receive that healing, in the same congregation by someone claiming to have and have used that gift on them. This usually explained away in, what seems to me, a very unfulfilled way such as they lacked faith or they haven't kept the healing, as you mention in bethels case. I believe the power of prayer is very real but am skeptical that the other gifts of the Spirit are alive today. Again, I certainly could be wrong. I am human and fallible. Your video has certainly caused me to, at the very least, consider it.
I also want to add, that many times in the old testament, perfect is used to describe the statutes or commandments of God. Again, that doesn't prove that it was in this specific case but I thought the number of times its reffered to as such, not just one or two isolated new testament scriptures is potentially relevent. And, I certainly concede that perfect isnt exclusively used to describe the word of God. Have a blessed night and please continue in your ministry. Even to those who don't agree with you 100% of the time, there are still things you delve into that are edifying. I will use myself as an example, since I fit both those statements. God bless you and your family.
I am in the same boat. I want to handle the teachings of scripture correctly but all I see are false prophesies that do not come true and videos like Sid Roth "teaching" people to speak in tongues without a gifting of the Spirit and without the rules given in scripture. It all becomes wearisome.
That was the best most scriptural balanced view I’ve ever heard. Good job brother keep up the good work.
Balanced view what is that? There are only three views. The right view. The wrong view or no view. God Ahmighty gives his Holy spirit to those whom he chooses and through that spiritual impartation comes the ability to get the right view....
@@haroldhahn9387 you are wrong. He imparts His Spirit to all believers
Its funny because it teaches the opposite. That the gifts continue until Jesus returns when we will no longer need them. 😊❤
Though there were only 12 apostles. The gift was still given to build up the body and we have their gift perserved through the scriptures. There are no more apostles. But even in church history we see prophets and everything else continue. ❤
Sure.
You can not prove to me Jesus is not coming back. The Spirit testifies that he is coming. So no amount of mans reasoning or traditions created by men will convince me of that. He's coming back and will judge the living and the dead. He will gather those in him and met out justice fully on the earth. Ty though. ❤
@@nathanburgett1599 wrong
@@llllllllllllllIIlIllIIllIIIIll That's in my top ten favorite arguments. Just above "nuh uh." 😉❤
Mike I appreciate your teachings. They are very balanced. Sadly, many people go to the extremes of many biblical topics and issues (I've done this as well). God bless you man.
I always enjoy how you divide the Word. Thank you for your thoughtful info
Good stuff here brother! Just preached on this chapter last Sunday. Love is the mark of a mature believer in Christ. The theme throughout 1 Cor 13 is love and maturity (telios). Thankful for you and your ministry.
I do appreciate how kind you are when assessing bethel, but I do think you should have been more stern, because it is a serious offense. They are acting as if you can prophesy all day any day... and leading people into new age divination, and those who operate in divination will not inherit the kingdom. People need warning to stay away from that or they will perish. I love your knowledge. And I love how kind you are, I hope you can stand firm and rebuke leaders who allow this stuff. Also to add to this.... them fake prophesying can lead to curses. Words cast spell and they can do A LOT of harm to the body..this is like mediums and physics. Please maybe do another video on Bethel, or other churches like this and go more in-depth, because your listeners that aren’t fully discerning need to be informed by someone with sound doctrine! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
I agree
tsk tsk..so sorry you take this stance..but i love bethel , and the whole movement- because i have experienced things that all line up with scripture- the gifts are 100% for today ... i just feel sad people attack other people thinking they are doing GOds work
@@drdennisramdinmawia1508 People take this stance because the core of the Bethel movement is at odds with the Bible, it preaches a different gospel than the gospel of Christ that saves you. I know you won't believe my words, but open your bible and compare what it says to what Bethel preaches. Keep in mind that anyone can take a passage of scripture and twist it to make a point -- the devil did this when he tempted Christ. Take the whole of scripture, and not out of context. God bless you in your journey.
What is going on at Bethel is downright unbiblical and scary. When strong Christian men like macarthur, lawson, washer, etc. point out the error, they are called demonic. Time to pick sides, people. We are NOT all playing for the same Coach.
enhancedcalm ok would you please tell me what those things are that are at odds with the bible,specifically??
Btw im a bible teacher too,and i would appreciate if somone would show me from the scriptures whats wrong with Bethel??
The miracles?? The presence of God?? The healings?? The love of God being preached ??
Pls tell me specifically what those are and ill tell you why i take this stance
And i really dont apprecaite what all these cessationists and anti charismatics are doing on social media , how they have influenced the people in such a negative way about the charismatic and the workings of the Spirit.
They stand close to blasphemy against the work of the Holy Spirit
I liked your video, and subscribed. I liked your honesty, and, transparency. You're not a "know it all". I think what we know is a drop in the bucket compared to what we will know. I believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the whole grace period. They operate in my life as the HS moves me. May we all grow in the knowledge of Him, seeking understanding, and wisdom, as we grow. Be blessed!!!!!!
Hi, Mike! As always, I really appreciate your handling of this topic and your explanation of the passage. Would you consider doing a video about Sozo (Bethel Church's "inner healing") or theophostic ministry? I grew up hearing the term "theophostic ministry" thrown around in my church community, but I've never really heard an explanation of it. Recently, I heard theophostic and Sozo equated as two sides to the same coin. But, again, haven't heard an explanation of these terms or an evaluation biblically. Within the missionary community in which I live in Asia, "inner healing" and Sozo are popular--and becoming more so. Some of my coworkers have gone through this type of ministry session personally. I want to get a better understanding and decide what I think about this issue, but I have yet to find a good explanation/evaluation that approaches the issue with scripture and doesn't use guilt by association (Bethel) or psychology to attack/defend.
Hello, Pastor Mike! Lately this phrase that I have heard some Christians say has been running through my head and actually grieving me a bit: "It's not the Father, Son and Holy Bible. It's the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." I was involved in a Bethel-ey ministry for quite a while, and through the word have been able to refute alot of doctrine they taught that didn't line up, but I can't seem to shake this one. How do you respond when other people of faith accuse you for "thinking too much" or "worshipping the Bible instead of the Spirit"? I don't think you have done a video on this before (I'm not sure how common this teaching is either), but it would be very encouraging to hear it preached about. Thank you, and God bless you! I hope you see this!
You simply remind them that the Word is another member of the trinity(ie Jesus) so we're obviously not saying the Holy Bible refers to the Spirit. You could then point them to the fact that Holy Spirit always moves people to worship Jesus.😅
The Holy Spirit inspired the written Word, the Bible. So what they are saying makes no sense. Jesus said His Words are Spirit and Life. Paul calls Scripture, "God breathed."
The first time I heard that little saying of theirs, I knew these were people trying to separate the Holy Spirit from His own Words. And why would they want to do that? To mis-quote Him possibly? To teach error in His Name? I believe so. If they can convince people that some small heresy is from the Holy Spirit ... they can drive a truck through that error and introduce larger destructive heresies.
1 John 4, don't believe every spirit. Test the spirits because MANY false prophets have gone out into the world. How do we test the spirits? Through God's Word. Through the Holy Spirit inspired truths in HIS Word.
It's like they are trying to disarm us and get us to willingly lay down our swords. See Ephesians 6:10-18 (especially vs 17).
I think that those gifts were to give credibility to God's teachers to establish new churches. Tongues on the day of Pentecost allowed the Apostles to speak in other language in order to teach.
Mike, I really appreciate your balanced approach to your topics on theology. I maintain the same attitude and am weary of either extremes. Thanks for the encouragement and perspective! God bless you brother!
Sir, you really are very thorough and as a minister, you minister to me. Please continue teaching thoroughly. I need it. Thank you.
Mike, would you do a video on the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry?
yes please! I've known countless people go there and I don't know what to say to them anymore...
Jasmine Hollins Chris Roseborough on Fighting for the Faith channel does a great episode on Bethel x
Lindsay-Sian Trehearne I am subscribed to F4F and while it’s biblical and entertaining, I find it snarky most of the time and would appreciate a video in the spirit of loving correction, as I would expect from Mike Winger.
Mike is all over the erroneous ways of the Bethel church
Appreciate your evaluation on this subject, been waiting on it for a while now! Although I disagree with you as I’m a cessationist because 1) I believe that scripture has much more support and evidence for cessationism than continuism and 2) I was involved in a church for a few years that believed the gifts still were valid for today. There was speaking in tongues and prophecy that never made sense. We went on missions trips and there were members of the church that would pray in tongues and speak in tongues for healing and it never happened. Those same people also said they had no idea what they were saying but it was the Holy Spirit present in them. The “groaning” in the spirit is just nonsense as well.
That being said I went back through and re read scripture , studied it and prayed for discernment about it all and I’ve come to this conclusion .
I’m a huge fan of you and your videos , I love your ministry and everything you’re doing. This is prob the first time I’ve disagreed with you but it doesn’t mean anything other than that. Keep up the good work, you have really helped mine and my wife’s spiritual journey as we learn from your teachings. Love you brother!
I was just looking through the comments and yours stood out. I'm curious of what biblical arguments you see in the Bible in favor of cessationism. I'm not looking to debate on it or anything, but I really haven't heard much biblical support for your view. I may take a look at your arguments on my channel one of these days. Blessings!
Practical Faith I’d have to say after having a bad experience with that former church I spoke of, I discovered Dr MacArthurs book “Strange Fire” and I found his scriptural evidence to make the most sense to me . If you haven’t read it, you should give it a read. In the back of the book over 50 + pages he gives hundreds of sources from church history etc , some of which I have researched but clearly not all of them, along side the scriptural evidence. It’s along the lines of what Mike addresses in this video from the Masters Seminary.
I want to follow this comment thread.
@@JakeManOtis I'll have to check it out one of these days. I've listened to a lot of debates and discussions on the topic there is very little appeal to scripture from the cessationist side. Have you heard of Authentic Fire by Dr. Michael Brown? I haven't read it, but it might give you a more balanced view.
@@tomcatpdx I'm considering doing a video on this topic on my channel soon. What specific question would you most like to have answered?
I am 75 years old. I have a degree in Psychology and Bible from the once ACC and now ACU in Abilene, Texas. I have been studying all my life. I do not know if I should be worried or excited but, you speak on the very things for which I have made discoveries that line up with your teachings. We are in agreement. Do not know of what to think. Thank you for your work. We will see if we ever part ways.
Really appreciate the way you approach Scripture and faith. Thank you for all you’re doing here.
Hey Mike, any plans to do a video on the Seventh Day Adventist church?
He should
Mike this is the most biblical, well balanced teaching I have ever heard on the subject. You are SUCH a huge blessing to the body of Christ. Thankyou so much for all your video content and God bless you and your family in Jesus Name I pray.... And your cat too!!!
9
Amen he is such a blessing to us all. He is truly anointed for God.
Would just like to say to people, buy a mug, logos and watch the adds before Mikes video starts, it is all supporting this crucial teaching and ministry, love you brother 🙏🙏🙏 oh and I hate the adverts too 😂 read a verse of your bible until Mike’s video starts 😘
Thank you so much for this biblical view. It does seem that this topic ignites a fire in people who have been in charismatic churches all their lives. I really appreciate the balanced viewpoint. I cannot deny that God has done supernatural things in my life. It’s not an everyday occurrence, but there is no denying it when these things occur. Thank you again 😊
I have yet to see one amputee ever have their limbs restored or any physical deformities removed. I find it very difficult to accept continuationism as a norm such as so many believe.
I never have seen it ether but I still believe God can to this day
@@lequitahartfield2886 Of course He can but obviously He chooses not to promote these charlatans
I've been cessationist most of my life, but then dreams I had when I was younger started to authenticate as prophecy. I had to reevaluate a lot of things at that point. I was born and raised a Christian but I experienced a real revival at that point. Still struggling with sin, though, it's not a magic bullet like I hoped it would be.
The grace of God is the key! Keep on the path, brother
It was the opposite for me, I grew up in an extremely charismatic household
But I'm a non normative continuationist, the miraculous gifts continue in places where the gospel is still being spread, and they continue until the church is established and then fade away once the full faith is delivered
I really appreciate your viewpoint on this Pastor Mike!
I appreciate this teaching so much, and I agree with your view Mike. Thank you for all your hard work. May the Lord strengthen you and give you wisdom through the Holy Spirit. 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
After listening to the cessation side ... how can you even think that? We discuss, debate, dispute, dialogue and have delibration ... but what we dont have in the Church is what the Holy Spirit wants ... a demonstration. Very good Mike!
I was told today (again) to cut soul ties with someone because even though she’s a believer, she recently had heart surgery and I’ve suddenly developed high blood pressure (rather extreme, almost double my always prior low BP). I finally said I’m not sure I believe in soul ties. Trying to keep the peace since this person is a beloved family member who helped bring me to Christ. But her and another believe they can perform deliverance, the power of not speaking out loud you have a disease because that gives it power, generational curses, and prophecy (which has been wrong). I’m not in agreement with any of that. I’m not a cessationist but I am skeptical.
Thank you so much for making this video. It clarified questions I had for years
Awesome video as always, Pastor Mike!
When the perfect comes is obviously the resurrection as face to face with Christ is face to face. I think John Piper has a better take on this than John MacArthur as he makes the point not to despise these gifts. The scripture says “Do not despise prophecy.”
Why would Paul have to say that? Because people then and people now will abuse this gift.
Look, even one of the main players in the cessation camp, R.C. Sproul was shown by God that prophecy is still for today. R.C. Sproul gave an account about a time when he was praying about a job change to which would have caused him to move to another state so one of R.C.’s old friends, that R.C. hadn’t talk to in ages, early one morning, the man felt a revelation come on about RC’s situation and felt God wanted him to talk to RC so the man had to first find out where RC even lived. Lol So he began looking him up and within a few hrs he found RC and called him. Long story short the man told RC that he felt God was pressing on him to tell RC that he shouldn’t take the other job but rather he should stay where he is at. RC states that he was surprised by this because he hadn’t spoke to the man in ages and there’s no way he would have known RC’s dilemma. RC said nothing noticeable came out of all this other than he just stayed where he was and continued his work. But he did see it as something from God but what I see is that God was showing a true man of God that N.T prophecy, which according to 1 Corinthians 14 is more personal revelation regarding personal issues than what we see in O.T. Prophecy as “Thus says the Lord” but any way what I see is that God showed RC that NT prophecy has not ceased.
😬
you tell this to the cessationist and they'll say its a false spirit..lol
and whats amazing is just because RC experienced this thing, he agreed that the gifts (prophecy) are still for today ---- the problem is all the other "theologians" who HAVE NOT HAD THE PRIVILEDGE of experiencing such things, who just claim the gifts have ceased....
maybe we should consider that maybe the charismatics who so many attack, DID EXPERIENCE these things and started believing.....
dr dennis Ramdinmawia yeah I believe that NT prophecy is still in use but I do feel all the other gifts have ceased especially the sign gifts.
And as far as the Charismatic Movement, I feel it’s very dangerous and seems to connect themselves to many false teachers way too often. I would encourage anyone out of a charismatic church. But having said that I do feel many charismatic Christians do have salvation so I’m not saying that just that there are better ministries to grow your faith in where you actually grow in not only the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ but also in biblical discernment.
Thanks for the comment though.
Thanks Mike for having an honest go at tackling this issue, it is something i have been reading through scripture and praying over. As i do tend to side with alot of cessationist theology, i am also not going to limit what Holy Spirit has the potential to do in terms of spiritual gifts, as long as it is supported by scripture. The issue that grieves me the most though is that so many people are so stuck on signs and wonders, they forget the most beautiful and important part of Gods Word.......The Gospel. We should be more focused on Preaching the Gospel than anything else.
Keep up the great work my prayers are with you. Amen
I'm so with you on this...many focal point is whether tongues and healing measure up to being saved, when clearly Grace has got that covered
Great lesson Pastor Mike! Thanks for this! I’ve often thought some Christians *ahem Bethel** read Acts and think these things happened every day all day but when you consider the 28 chapters happened over about 33 years then... maybe not so much. Most likely more going on but it’s possible.
Jesus did miracles so abundant that it says the whole world could contain the books. He said his disciples will do greater.. It's not greater quality because it doesnt get much more than raising from the dead. It's greater quantity, so the idea that miracles are supposed to be just here and there is false
Love your take on these issues. It'll get me thinking just as you said. Well presented Mike.
Hello this is late but I had to share. My late wife and I were invited to a Bethel road show,er, service. My dear wife was involved with the New Age including Kundalini yoga. I'm an old Lutheran, wife always called me Martin Luther. When the service started there were people shaking, almost seizures.
We were to to "drink the spiritual wine and encourage being drunk in the spirit" No, I put on the armour of God and stood with the sword of the word in my hands. My wife said: "this is Kundalini "and we quietly left. We went home and put the Antrim Mennonite Choir on and the first song was "Are you washed in the blood"? We felt the presence of God.
Thank you Mike! I learned a lot. This is a very balanced analysis!
I think tongues and other gifts will cease at the rapture. It started on the day of Pentecost and that is when the church Age begin. So it will logically end at the rapture.
They will cease when the perfect comes. Does He scoop us up and then come right back with us? I have what seems to be a unique view. When the NT speak of the DAY OF THE LORD it seems to encompass more that the day He returns and unleashed all heaven on the army if Satan. Scripture say that before the DotL the stars and etc fall and the dead in Christ rise. I believe the Seals are the birth pangs, 5 and 6 are those signs. Jacob’s troubles begin when the Jewish witnesses are sealed which is followed by the SUDDEN multitude in heaven (rapture). That is why the witnesses (first 3 1/2) are not mention until afterward.
Actually if we're being honest, why does the "gift of tongues" only affect certain "charismatic" or "Pentecostal" churches. Are the Catholics, Orthodox, or Anglicans not holy enough? No it's not that.
The modern gift of tongues is no different than mass hysteria. Languages can be evaluated and tracked back thousands of years, when people do the gift of tongues they tend to either make baby noises or a terrible stereotype attempt at African languages. Many European languages can link certain words with languages in the middle east. But even ignoring that, the words in the gift of tongues doesn't even represent possible languages as there needs to be certain syntax. I'm not outright saying that they know they are making it up but the pressure to have the gift of tongues compells your mind to take up the task.
Also the "gift of tongues" has been a pagan thing for millennia. often with demons(daemons) entering your body to control and make you speak. This thing in Christian churches now should be viewed as a heresy.
@@caymanhunter2612 What passes as the gift of tongues in the modern church has ZERO biblical basis. Public speaking of tongues is recorded 3 times in Acts. The second time it happens was when Peter was sent to the Gentiles and he described what happened as the Spirit falling on them like it had in the beginning, not every time someone got saved or even every church gathering. You make a good connection because the only time we see “Pentecostal” behavior in scripture is when someone is possessed by a demon. If someone want to raise their hands or get a little animated then who should care. When it becomes an emotion experience and people start barking and throwing themselves on the floor then they have left any grounding in scripture.
@@jeffreybomba yes, exactly. They are practically just Pagans putting their demon gods over Gods face. This should be viewed as not just heretical but a ticket to be condemned to hell. This isn't a matter of eastern orthodox vs roman catholic, this is literally a false idol, pretendint that there's this demonic like holy spirit can just enter you and make you do things???? God is clear that he gives us free will, he fries when we do bad with it, but freedom is more important than safety.
@@caymanhunter2612 when it comes to things like this I try to draw a distinction between the “shepherds” and the flock. The apostles grew up being told there was one coming, Israel was the suffering servant and Messiah was coming to defeat Rome. They ignored and or argued with Jesus and their last question before He ascended was IS THE KINGDOM COMING NOW? After everything Peter had seen, Paul had to call him out for setting himself apart from gentiles when Jew rolled into town. The sad thing is that every denomination does something that even Paul would have spanked them for. We need to find away to protect ourselves from false teaching without condemning others.
Q: Can you do one on the finished work of Christ what is it and what does it mean
Thanks for your work. I pray for you to keep on the right path and glorifying God in your home and ministry.
Verse 12 makes me laugh because it reminds me of when Simba is lookin in the stream and Rafiki tells him to “look harder”. When we “look harder”, we will see Christ living in us. I
Edit: I don’t don’t laugh at the Bible. I laugh in rejoicing.
Mike you’re giving Matt Chandler a run for his money, when it comes to talking with your hands
This was two years ago.. but have you SEEN John piper 😂
It's a narrow Way, brother. The Truth being the fine line it is in our walk must be led by the Spirit and backed up by Holy Scripture. (In context. Like Genesis-Revelation) Thank you for your love of our Father/Savior/Spirit being evident in how you approach each topic! I'm thankful for sanity and sanctity being a reality in your words. Keep up the good work! Love in Christ
God bless you Pastor Mike, you have definitely edified me through all of the Bible teaching you have done. I pray for God to continue using you in such an amazing way. Thank you for helping us understand the Bible from a biblical point of view and not just out of our own emotions. 🙏🏻
Where did they come up with the “bible fully delivered.”
Exactly, they really tried hard to justify their belief with the Bible and it didn’t fit at all.
Good analysis. Thank you for your excellent teaching, as usual!
Reasoned Answers apologetics videos Brother RAAV. Peace be with you
Thank you Brother. Because you are in Christ and teach us through your giftings we’re learning a lot sound bible teachings.❤
Q Hey Mike, I’ve really enjoyed your videos as my eyes have been open to false doctrine since COVID. Your videos are helping to clarifying some thing for me. My history is 30 years of word of faith merged over to NAR. I followed primarily only Lou Engle and attended Azusa Now and The Call on the National Mall, all in, expecting to see signs and wonders everywhere. I also listened to some “prophets” regarding politics. So with all that said, I’ve learned about Bethel and the connection to Jesus Culture over the past 6 months, including the kundalini spirit. So In February our AG church had Banning Liebscher in to speak. I researched him more in depth the days before hand and was ready to hear his message and to discern it. It wasn’t horrible but a lot of random with a few scriptures. So at the end of his message, he manipulates the atmosphere even jokingly telling our worship team to play a Jesus Culture song. And as you spoke of in this video, out came the norm. He gave 3 words and one was for my husband. He went on for about 4 minutes about our business and he was spot on, everything he said has or is currently happening, nothing prophetic. And after that he doubled down on my husbands generosity! And then he included me, asking first if I was his wife. At this point he stumbled and actually said he wasn’t sure what he was getting. Then he said that we’d be a well known couple (we’re already very well know, very involved) in the church and when people came to our home they’d be changed because of us (hosted small group for 7 years). I will say, all along I was looking down because I thought if I looked at him he’d know I didn’t believe what he was saying was from God. He was very likable and seems like a great guy. I’m just struggling with the spirit from which his word came. I know it doesn’t matter in the big scheme of things. I’m wondering if you have any thoughts on it?
Not sure if you got an answer to this. How do you know that he wasn't told by staff at the church about you and your husband? You said you are well known in the church and hood small groups in your home. He may simply have met with the church leaders prior to the device and asked about the people in the church. Who knows, he may have just said "who are your outstanding members and how can I pray for them?"
@@natalieroman5231 thanks for your reply. No, I’m positive that wasn’t the case. Also if that were true that he had for-known, wouldn’t that be misleading of him to give a “word of knowledge” or “prophecy” for us? In Holly Pivics book, Counterfeit Kingdom, she calls that a Hot-Reading Prophecy. Either way, I don’t believe for a minute his knowledge came from God.
We had been at the church 20 years, and my husband was on the Board of Decon’s for 7 years. We were close friends of Pastor and his wife. We have since left that church. In one meeting in December my husband stepped down from the board and told Pastor we are leaving the church. Definitely not an easy decision because of our strong friendship. They are good people for sure and we love them. We just felt led to leave the Pentecostal and charismatic for a church that has a very strong exposition of scripture every single week with a very clear Gospel message. 😊
I believe the gifts are still around but we must be cautious and test the spirits because there are counterfeits our there
Even Jesus stopped performing miracles to some people at some point during His earthly ministry...I so appreciate Mike's attitude on the whole thing...doesn't matter if they ceased or not just put your faith in the already revealed written word. That's all you can truly be secure in.
Bethel is probably very similar to the church in Corinth.
I don’t think we should say that without knowing them personally. I’ve heard a lot they’re some of the most loving and pure people
Hey Mike! Love your youtube videos! How about a video on Jesus only baptism verses father, son, holy spirit baptism. And if you did one already I need to find it
The perfect, in my heart, means God perfecting us, when we meet God face-to-face. It’s talking about perfection itself, when we meet God finally.