Thank you guys for breaking these down. I’ve been anticipating the release of this documentary so I could hear your thoughts on it. I recently left my cessationist church/beliefs. My former pastor is in this documentary…clips of this documentary were filmed in my former church! I love my former pastor/church so much, but I am no longer a cessationist. I spent the last 8 years as a cessationist, but The last year I have wrestled with this topic and this is where I have ended up. Remnant Radio- God has used you in my life, along with Jack Deere and Sam Storms. I’m very grateful. ❤️
@@michaelmiller5024 if you wouldn’t mind, would you please pray we find a church that is both rich in the word and spirit in our town? It’s been a challenge finding a new church home.
Years ago I was in a Bible study group where there was a woman with two young boys who had got divorced a year or two earlier. Her sons were alone at home after school while she was working. One day the younger son showed her what the older one was up to while she was not there - there was a sheet in his cupboard with a cut up Bible, a knife, and his blood was on the sheet. Strange things were happening in their house, like mist coming up in the middle of the day and things moving around. She was desperately looking for help at all the mainstream churches, but nobody would take her seriously or knew what to do. She ended up going to a weird sect whose members were willing to go to her house and pray, and the manifestations disappeared. I guess that's one illustration of why cessationism is actually dangerous.
That has nothing to do with cessationism. Cessationism is the belief that the apostolic sign gifts ceased with the office of Apostle and the completion of the Canon. I am a cessationist and I was a demonic drug and sex addict. I dabbled in witchcraft and had gnarly terrifying things happen before I got saved. That kid son needs to repent and believe the gospel.
@@chrisjohnson9542 it is absolutely relevant to Cessationism. If a Cessy pastor won’t cast out a demon for you (he won’t, cause he don’t believe in that), then who is a normal church-goer supposed to go to for help? A Catholic exorcist? A pagan? A witch? New Age? If “just repent and believe in Jesus” is a sufficient answer, then why did Paul and Silas cast out the demon in Philippi in Acts 16? Why didn’t they just preach the gospel to the demon-possessed girl? Why didn’t they just tell her to repent? Isn’t that sufficient? I’d love to hear your answer.
@@chrisjohnson9542It has everything to do with cessationism. What would have done if thise lady came to you with that story? I would have went to her house because I've already done exactly that several times and with success. You would have told her to tell her son to repent? Wouldnt even visit her house to tell the child to repent? I would love to see how that would've went and the demons would've still had free reign over her house if she remained at a cessationists church. You people dont help anyone, you just bash Charismatics and push your doctrine for new converts into your cult. But are you doing for the Kingdom? I know the answer. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
I like the way you guys correct each other from time to time. That's an indication that you are led by the Word and the Holy Spirit rather than controlled by group think.
You guys have more than enough material to make a "CONTINUATIONIST!" movie. It would be both a great tool for the church and an epic troll for our cessationost brothers and sisters.
I was convinced that the gifts had ceased as well until I started listening to Arabs & Jews who literally knew very little about Christ or the New Testament. Most only knew to call onto him to ask him to come into their life, then they would speak in tongues, and describe Christs presence. From those moments on they gave their lives to Christ. If the gifts have ceased completely then how is that to be explained or how is that even possible? I can’t ignore nor would I dare to say that’s not of Christ. How is that not of Christ? Arabs who are lost & miserable are reaching out to Christ asking for signs and instantly saved. I just can’t ignore these testimonies. I feel as though that’s a slap in Gods face! I do believe that people are taking advantage of the gifts or let’s say they are pretending to have gifts that they actually don’t have, which is causing so much harm in the church today.
Thanks Daniel! episode 3 will be the best one yet! Part three will probably cover Hebrews 2:2-3, The Wicked Generation That Seeks A Sign From Matthew 16, and Lies About Church History.
Great point about paul "The idea that the gifts wouldn't accompany teaching today means that you think you can preach better than Paul the apostle." Convicting for me even as a continuationists!
I disagree, clearly many ppl today are coming to christ because they heard someone preach the gospel and responded to the word with no signs or wonders and moreso now than in Paul's time. That doesnt mean we preach better than Paul today only that the Lord's work carries on successfully. Do you believe that today ppl are getting saved only because gifts are accompanying the teaching or are ppl still being saved regardless?
@@JL-qe7ofPeople can join an Army, and not be given a weapon. How do you think that would work out for the Army as a whole? Sure, you can have medics and administration, but if you don't have soldiers with "power"- weapons- then the battle will not move in favor of the Army. And it doesn't seem that the battle is going to well, if you look at the evidence in the culture and in the culture of the Church. I say we need to equip our soldiers for the war we are in with the dark forces of this age.
@@JL-qe7offair point! R W Shambach preached to 50, 000 Pakistani, but none came for the alter call. He was perplexed. Then he looked down and saw a lame and blind man brought them up on stage, got them healed! Then gave an alter call 5,000 gave their hearts to Jesus. (I don’t have the book in front of me this is the just of the story) My point is the Holy Spirit gives tools (gifts), for Kingdom building.
I just keep coming back to the idea that I can't conceive of anyone arriving at a cessationist position if they just read Scripture without someone having already told them what they're supposed to think about it. Would a simple, plain reading of Scripture ever leave you with the idea that all of these gifts are *not* something the Church should expect?
You can be charismatic and still believe in the sovereignty of God, and still ask for these gifts and miracles and then submit to God’s will at the same time.
Brothers, I have have a unique question. I newly moved to Calgary in Alberta, Canada, and I’m looking for a church, which hasn’t been easy because I’m looking for a balanced theology of fidelity with the scriptures and a continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In order words, I’m looking to avoid the extremes and these conversations have stirred in me again a desire not to settle for the hyper charismatic or the hyper reformed, if that's feasible. Do you have a church finder, or any sort of recommendation for a church in my neck of the woods? Good bless 🙏🏽❤️🔥👑
Either try out some of the CHA churches, often non-denominational... or Check out a Calvary Chapel... very balanced approach and acceptance of the Gifts of the Spirit.
The bit about God's Divine Agency was spot on. Sadly, many view Pentecostals as biblically unlearned and imprecise because of those out on the charismatic fringe. Well said gentlemen.
You are right, Josh, cessationism is dangerous. The reason it is dangerous is because it leaves cessationists unprepared to deal with, in the power of the Holy Spirit, false messiahs, apostles, and prophets (especially the ultimate false messiah [Antichrist] and his false religious leader [the false prophet]) who, through signs, wonders, and miracles, will deceive virtually the whole world into following them to destruction.
no, because false prophets, messiahs and apostles can be easily falsified by the Bible and the signs and wonders will just further confirm that they are from the devil you know who will fall for the miracles of the anti christ? the charismatics who's theology is very shallow and weak, they seek for signs and will easily fall for the antichrist who shows actual undeniable miracles you have it completely backwards just look at how many people are led astray by bethel and other false churches who "do miracles"
16:24 Maybe it shouldn't be called Acts of the Apostles but of the exalted Christ....Lightbulbs! What a blinding flash of the obvious! Thank you. When I knocked on exploring the 'continuationist' door before, I ran into what has been mentioned so much in other places--lack of explanation coming from the Bible--in a systematic or apologetic type way. Or something more cohesive than random Bible verses. When it is native to one's understanding maybe it is more difficult to explain? I couldn't bridge that gap. Thank you to you all and those you have recommended for bridging that gap in a way I can understand...and even challenging the lack of Biblical backing the other way. I am thankful for this video that you are reviewing because it allows me to hear your case more fully. It sounds strange to those who already swim in these waters comfortably but I felt I had come to the point where I was having to trade the centrality of Christ in everything for an emphasis in the experiential. This comment was an answer to prayer. Of course that's not true! This show is doing a lot to remove the negative shadows cast by the abusers...maybe a new movement yet in this arena? Apologetic continuationism? 🙂Even in cessationist circles there is abuse and extremes besides what is mentioned here. Again, thank you! What are those commentaries anyway?
Very good talk. I do think the more dangerous side of cessationism is, you can call the genuine work of the Holy Spirit the work of the devil and blasphemy the Holy Spirit.
Thanks for the encouragement, Brendon. I am not confident that cessationists mistakenly calling miracles demonic is, in fact, blasphemy. I admit it seems close, but I am pretty confident that the blasphemy that Jesus speaks of there is knowing that these miracles are from God and then calling them demonic. I think most cessationists are calling this stuff demonic out of ignorance not mallace.
Or their calling it demonic because it actually is demonic. Many examples of this throughout scripture. And millions of examples in hyper charismatic churches
In my early years a young lady visiting our A/G church was moved on by the Holy Spirit, and had a wonderful experience speaking in tongues, her Church of Christ elder tried tell her that she was deceived. She invited me to talk with him but he would not acknowledge the scriptures. The good news is that she was encouraged, since he could not shut me down scripturally. Ps, i only went because she asked me to , i wasnt looking for trouble.
@MikeSheasheaDtree Surely, you don't need me to provide a chapter and verse for the account of Moses and Aaron with Pharaoh's magicians or the slave girl who had a spirit of divination. I'd be more than happy, though, to provide you with chapter and verses so you can educate yourself, since you don't know what I am talking about Jer 23 Ezekiel 13 Matthew 7:15-23 Matthew 24:24 2 Thes 2:8-12 2Peter 2:1-3 Romans 16:18 2 Corin 2:17 Acts 20:28-31 Gal 1:6-9 1John 4:1 2John 1:7-11 John 8:44 2Corin 11:13-15 All that glitters is not gold ~William Shakespeare
Just a curious questions. You make mentioned that 1 Thessalonians was written after 1 Corinthians but I could not find anything to support that claim. Everything I was able to locate shows a date before 1 Corinthians
Would love to hear your thoughts, as me being a continuationist, regarding how we see an authority of healing in some parts of the Bible versus a "prayer." For example where they say i dont have money but what i do have i give to you... take up your mat and walk. It wasnt a "God if its your will... please heal this person..." etc (not to say you said to pray like this). This is just a frequent thing i contemplate. They had such a confidence over their union with God to perform these acts. Now days we seem loosey goosey and cant rely on Him type of thing yet still believing in miracles
Jesus also tells them that if they have the faith of a mustard seed they can move mountains. However, that was in response to the apostles trying to cast out a demon but they couldn’t and Jesus had to correct them and called them a “faithless generation”. So they weren’t always successful when operating in the gifts. I think the point is that we always have the faith that God will heal and believe for it but it’s ultimately God’s decision on whether it happens or not.
Thanks guys. great 2nd episode. I want to encourage you to not worry so much about offending secessionists. Sometimes peoples faults or sins, especially of leaders, were rebuked before all so that others may fear. You guys are nice enough as it is and great people. The many secessionists are leading droves of others, who are tired of what they think is all charasmania, into dangerous ground. A lot is at stake. Blessings
How come the biblical qualifications for elders do not mention the sign gifts? Same with deacons? Why were the list of Spiritual gifts becoming shorter after 1 Corinthians 12?
Because working miracles doesn't mean you're a responsible administrator? Picking people for practical reasons has nothing to do with the frequency of the miraculous. Miracles weren't dying out.
And let's look at Matthew 10 and 28 the other way around. Matthew 28: Make disciples of ALL NATIONS, "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you." What's part of what He commanded them? In Matthew 10: Preach. Heal the sick. Cleanse the lepers. Raise the dead. Cast out demons. Is that excluded from "all things"?
Love this documentary. It's very important, because I almost lost my belief in the gifts till I read the Bible well. Cessationists preach faith, but they walk by sight. Anyone who wants evidence before believing in the gifts should simply go and read the Bible again.
" The jacket slappers".... I like that. I think a big problem among hyper Charasmatic believers is that they are trying to do these miracles and healing in their own strength, out from themselves, not of the Holy Spirit
I believe what the Bible says.I grew up Baptist in a church that didn’t believe in anything.Most of our church members were sick, and lived sinful lives. Apostle Paul had an encounter with Jesus.He was not one of the 12 Apostles. Stephen was a deacon and he was filled with the Holy Spirit and preached. So, if you don’t believe anything don’t listen to or go to churches that do.Stop criticizing people that do.
Love you guys and LOVE this video thus far. Only 25min in and finding LOTS of good stuff. Haven't found anything I could unequivocally falsify thus far. I would just ask Miller one question in light of his claim that those giving the Gospel without demonstration are a few steps behind the Apostle Paul, what do you do with Rom. 1:16. For it sounds as if you are saying that one "must" accompany the other. That a Proclamation without a Demonstration is somehow lacking. On the surface this would seem to me to be in opposition of what Paul writes in 1st Cor 12 in that the Spirit distributes the Gifts as He wills. And that not all have the same gifts. It seems to me that the Spirit could give one the gift of Knowledge and , oh say, Prophecy (in the sense of Truth-telling) and be able to boldly and powerfully articulate the Gospel and yet without any gifts that would fall under "signs and wonders". I hope that makes sense.
Cessationists can make any argument as to how miracles happen all they want to, but when they start saying that Satan is performing miracles and casting out demons, then they are no different than the Pharisees in Matthew 12:24 saying that Yeshua is being used by Satan to cast out demons, and my mind immediately races to the next two verses: "how can Satan cast our Satan?"
Question. How does 1 Corinthians 12-14 fit with your argument at the 19 minute mark about all of us being endowed as prophets through Christ’s authority when it says 1. prophecy is a gift of the Spirit and 2. that not all have that gift? Thanks!
Not all have the spiritual gifts of prophecy, but all have the Spirit. Prophets will hear God speak regularly for others. All believers can hear God speak for themselves in a way that far exceeds OT times bc of the Spirit. That’s one of several ways of answering that. We address this a little in Mondays show w Tania harris
Dear continuationist brothers and sisters, please keep the main Thing, the main Thing. This is why so many are still apprehensive, we've seen the slippery slope where something stated as secondary but slowly creeps into the primary seat. As for my cessationist brothers and sisters, please make sure that you have not created theological framework that disallows gifts that you attack and wholesale reject, and then hedge your bets by stating things like "...but the Lord can do as He wants." It sounds disenguous, similar to agnostics who profess openness to being convinced of God's existence, yet have framework that allows them to explain anything and everything away. Sincerely, Open but staunch
Casting down demonic, Laodicean arguments like "the gifts don't exist today" or "don't argue about secondary issues" _is_ the main thing(2 Cor. 10:5, Jude 3). All of the doctrines that exist in the Bible are there because they're all part of the gospel Christ preached, and not the fake gospels about Christ that traditional Christianity preaches.
The conversation about early church fathers, after the 100AD mark was interesting for me. The questions then if, 1. The person(s) who made the documentary are lying or 2. The researcher(s) are not particularly good, and only find "echo chamber" supporting history or 3. The researchers agree that these early church fathers mentioned @45-minute mark are considered heretics or 4. The historical documents mentioned here are not correct either. Either way, for believers to claim to hold to truth, despise falsehood and lying, such behavior is damaging. I personally would not want to associate with a lying brother, what else would they lie about 🤔
@@JBly4the claim we are taking the early church fathers out of context needs some qualifying. Also, the only one we quoted who was flirted with heresy out of the 6 quotes was Origen and we stated that plainly. The fact is the early church fathers use the word "gifts" in reference to what has continued. It's plainly stated and further it's inconsistent to say we are taking it out of context. Apply that consistently with the 2 quotes the cessationists film used. Either way the scriptures speak louder. We gave three explicit passages for a time stamp on the gifts. Cessationists film ... zero.
Part three will probably cover Hebrews 2:2-3, The Wicked Generation That Seeks A Sign From Matthew 16, and Lies About Church History. It may be the best episode yet!
I don't follow the TV preachers. If the infilling of the Holy Spirit has passed, what happened to me 47 years ago at Hollywood Presbyterian Church? I saw miracles and received miracles. It's ridiculous to say the gifts stopped. We need them today more than ever!!!
My dad is so dogmatic about how the gifts of the spirits are ceased, saying the Bible says it because it says the only gifts left are faith, hope, and love. I can't even debate him on it. He gets aggressive about it. I love him and he's a minister and loves God but I really don't like talking to him about spiritual stuff anymore. I believe in the gifts to an extent. I'm still figuring out how much but I can't ignore the fact that you guys actually deal with dilverence which my father does believe in. I'm called to dilverence ministry but I don't know how it's all going to look for me.
Is it possible when Paul says, "Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom," that he's describing the same tension between demonstration and proclamation you speak of here. Given that the church was dejudaized and became largely a gentile institution, wouldn't that account for a lesser emphasis on so-called sign gifts over time?
God sovereignty chose that an individual’s faith is a factor in healing. So if Calvinism is true then isn’t it on God that these theologians are cessationists since Calvinism would hold that God determines an individual’s level of faith at every point in sanctification? Also, since all His decrees bring about His glory, shouldn’t we be praising God for these theologian’s unbelief since under Calvinism it’s bringing God glory?
@remnantradio you should translate these videos to other languages spanish please! there is so much people that need to watch these videos and i want to share to
I wish I could get more information on the Sam Storms commentary of 2 Corinthians 12:12. I'm looking at lots of translations and greek word study resources and everything and I just don't think that verse means anything but Paul is validating his apostleship with the "signs of an apostle" which were mighty deeds and signs and miracles. This is a great series and I think you guys are right on the money with most of your arguments, I'd hate to see that compromised with a good old "the greek doesn't say that" nonsense argument. He could be right but I'd like to hear a discussion on that point as I suspect some very competent greek scholars would take issue with his conclusion...I could be wrong. Seems like a parallel to chapter 6:3-10 where he speaks a lot of character attributes of an apostle along with mentioning the power of God...all these things might be included as signs of apostleship, but to say he's excluding signs I think might be disingenuous?
I love how yall just be spitting FACTTSSSS. Cuz facts don't care about opinions or tradition. God bless you brothers. Keeps sharing TRUTH in LOVE. God bless, yall. Looking forward to Part 3. Iron sharpens iron.
Cessationists say miraculous gifts have not been operative for 1,923 years. Atheists overwhelmingly agree, although they say the number is closer to 16 billion ... minimum.
I love you Brothers so much, you always have so much grace! Perhaps you could address my concern, over the years I have concluded that there is often a spirit behind cessationism and it’s not the Holy Spirit. I truly believe deliverance is in order. It is funny/ironic how your typical cessationist also rejects deliverance for Christian’s. I know of one person who doesn’t want me walking in power and exercising my gifts, and his lies are from the pits of hell. Just sayin. Love y’all.
The only scripture I could use to defend the idea that a bad doctrine could cause demonization is the verse regarding tolerating a doctrine of demons. Outside of that I have no personal experience with it but I have friends who have had to cast out a spirit of religion because of embracing cessationism. Anecdotally I've seen spirits cast out for other bad doctrines such as Christian Universalism (this one being heresy).
I see that Miller has already responded. I can only tell you anecdotally that the ministry at our conference changed dramatically after we had pastors repent for teaching cessationism.
@@michaelmiller5024 Thank you Brother. Maybe I will refrain from barging into the next cessations conference with my high power Holy oil squirt gun. But seriously, perhaps it’s good to just call it what it is, a doctrine of demons? Funny how the gift of discerning spirits must have ceased as well… God forbid.
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” John 6:65 NKJV Not quite the same wording as "chosen" or "selected" but certainly does show that being a Christian does mean that God granted us that privilege and in some way selected us to be His children on a personal level.
Its all strange until YOU get wacked by the Power of The Holy Spirit and nobody touched you and living water flows from your innermost being and you feel His power and love coursing through you😅 but yeah, some stuff in that movie was God and other stuff…i can not say
Did you put a complaint to RUclips about a previous comment of mine! Or is it a hacker. Need to know! Cheers. Your shows only been on 4 hours and i haven't made a comment or even watched your vid and had a complaint from RUclips. Very suss! What's goin' on?
@@jamiechippett1566I have had 2 warnings from youtube about comments I have made in the last few days. One said it contravened guidelines on bullying and another for spam! One of them popped up when I was on here but I know I haven't made any such comments. It said if I do it again they would delete my channel. Very strange.
Couldn't the demonstration of the spirit with power be conviction of sin and conversion to Christ as we see happen in revivals? when the spirit is poured out and his influences are mightily felt people are brought to their knees crying out for mercy. I'm not a cessationist but I don't think the demonstration of power necessarily means spiritual gifts. Gifts are to be kept in their proper place, they're not meant to be the main thing.
That’s how Piper takes it. I think it definitely includes that but shd not be limited to it, considering that a good chunk of the book focuses on Corinth’s experience of miraculous gifts. Very much agree that gifts are not the main thing. That fits w 1 Cor 2 tho. Power is for magnifying Christ and the gospel, not man.
Cessationism is not a new development of the anti-charismatic movement. It has been evident throughout church history. However, there is another side to the cessationist arguments and it was provided by a very early theologian of the church. Irenaeus was born in the first half of the second century (his birth date has been suggested between 115-125) and died towards the end of that century. As one of the first great theologians of the church, he was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John. Irenaeus became bishop of Lyons, Gaul (France today). Irenaeus assures us that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit had not disappeared by the end of the second century. He wrote in a leading refutation of Gnosticism, Against Heresies (written about 180): “Those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ”.[30] So Irenaeus knew of the practice of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit in his day. Thus, they did not cease with the death of the Twelve and the formation of the New Testament canon of Scripture. It is estimated that the last book of the New Testament was written about AD 95-96 (the Book of Revelation). Thus, Irenaeus refutes John MacArthur’s statement that “once the Word of God was inscripturated, the sign gifts were no longer needed and they ceased”.[31] Irenaeus clearly shows the existence of sign gifts in the church over 100 years after the completion of the canon of Scripture. Irenaeus also provided us with the earliest undisputed authority for the authorship of the four Gospels: Matthew issued his Gospel among the Hebrews; Mark was the disciple and interpreter of Peter; Luke was a companion of Paul and recorded a Gospel preached by Paul; John, a disciple of the Lord, published his Gospel while he was in Ephesus in Asia.[32]
A descriptive secrion of scripture makes the specific claim that Peter and John didn't heal by their own power or godliness, meaning that it wasn't inherently in them. Acts 3:12 But when Peter saw this, he replied to the people, “Men of Israel, why are you amazed at this, or why are you staring at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him walk?
Hi guys, just a thought. Is it possible that we have a lack of understanding about this issue. For example, Jesus NEVER said that the signs would follow JUST the apostles (Mark 16:18). now I had to include the part about handling snakes because it's in the scriptures as well. however we can find the application for the reference in Mark in Acts 28:2-5. so the only conclusion I could come to is that the signs that Jesus told the 11 was available to all who believe (should I use the word trust?)and also, does it behoove us to "press into " what the writer of the book of Hebrews 6:1-6 to take it as a invitation, but also as a warning;that we should conduct ourselves ,as brothers and sisters in Christ with the utmost respect, regard and reverence towards the LORD and His church MAY WE ALL (starting with me ) do justly love mercy,walk humbly, before Him. As I stated at the beginning, just a thought.
I dont believe in the gifts today, one question I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer for (maybe I can hear one now in this discussion); if we have the gifts today why have I not ever seen someone with the gift of healing go to St. Jude and heal those children with cancer and then preach the Gospel to their families? Or to any hospital with terminal patients for that matter so ppl can witness and believe? That means heal someone medically confirmed to be terminal, healed at will and completely with the power given to you by the holy spirit? How come those with the gift of "tongues" don't have someone with the gift of "interpretation" there to interpret for the members what God is revealing to us at that moment as scripture says to do? And how come I have yet to hear about that member with the gift of "prophesy" who correctly and accurately prophesied the coming of covid and i mean in name and exact day and when we would be healed and for how long would the world be afflicted? Or the recent floods in NY and India, or earthquake on 9/29 in the middle east. And I mean clearly as in on this day, this earthquake, this many dead. How come to date not one has come forward to raise someone from the grave so that ppl can see and believe in Christ who is the messiah? Has anyone here witnessed someone raised from the dead? Was this not one of the gifts? Has anyone ever witnessed or can share a video where I blind person walked into the church and was given their vision? A deaf person who can now hear? Florida had a recorded case of leprosy recently. Was there anyone that could heal them? A cripple who could go to that church and walk again? Anyone witness these healings and can verify? Isn't this what the early church did when they were spirit filled and so shouldn't this be so now if it is still for believers today? I would still call you all my brothers and sisters in Christ unless I see you preaching false doctrines or denying Christ or scripture or preaching another gospel. I say this to say that I am not hear to refute your beliefs but Im a Thomas, so show me.
Read "Miracles" by Craig Keener which documents many things. Some of what you are asking for is baking a wrong definition of certain gifts into it. So you'll never see the thing your asking for because it never existed. Some of the other things are well documented in Keener's book.
@@michaelmiller5024 thanks for the reference to the book I did take a look on Amazon and it seems to be more about miracles that happen as a result of Prayer or faith in God which I absolutely stand with you on. Are there examples of these miracles done by a person at will? That I would def want to look into. I believe we have ample evidence of miracles occurring as a result of God's intervention through prayer and faith but that would be different from someone who can perform this at will as would be given to them to do as in a gift. When you say what I am asking for never existing what exactly do you say did not exist? My understanding of this video is that the argument here is that gifts are still given today meaning we have them. Aren't the examples I gave the gifts that were used back then? Meaning: Joel 2:28 “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” Paul and Peter both raised people from the dead (acts 20:7, acts 9:36) Matthew 10:7 And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay. Acts 2: 1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Are these not the gifts that is argued are for today still or am I misunderstanding what the video is stating?
@@JL-qe7of again it depends on how one is defining a "gift." If by having a gift of healing you mean healing at will regardless of God's sovereign oversight then no. That gift never existed. Gifts are not super powers like a Marvel Superheroes operating independently of God. If by having a gift you mean when "in Christ" as God's Spirit makes manifest thru a person then all of those passages apply. Cessationists are claiming a gift of healing operates like the marvel superheroes. They are pre-defining what gifts are and how they operate when they are making these arguments.
Likely the oldest heresy not addressed. Just think how many millions of folks that were NOT healed because this false non-supported doctrine forbid them being prayed over.
Well, considering Jesus was the only one to do that, I guess that would infer none of the apostles truly could heal? Not really sure where you are going with this reply. In addition, you not seeing something doesn't negate its existence. None of us have seen a single miracle Jesus performed during his earthly ministry. Yet, we still believe they happened.
I have never seen a man stand up in a massive crowd of Jews and witness 3,000 people getting saved in one gospel presentation. So, I guess the gift of evangelism has ceased. I have never seen someone drop dead during communion, so I guess we are no longer drinking judgment on ourselves if we take communion in an unworthy way. I have never seen someone drop dead in church after lying about their giving records, so I guess you can't lie to the Holy Spirit anymore. Those who have never seen a demon cast out must be off the hook for believing in demons. Also, those who have never seen angels should be off the hook for believing in angels. Man, this is crazy convenient. With this newfound logic, I can base all my theology on my experiences or lack thereof to determine what I will and will not believe.... 🙄
You'd need a prerequisite of peoples ears being chopped off... and it be SO COMMON that someone with faith might have their prayer answered by God from the massive pool of ear chopping victims such that its addressed and you hear about it. I've never heard of anyone ever having their ear chopped off since the priests servant. Vangough doesn't count, he did it in purpose and mailed to a girl, not exactly an ideal miracle situation, their no suplicant, the bodily elements are removed on purpose, and no one sought healing from God on it.
I don't agree with Millers view on 2nd Corinthians verse 4 were Paul's preaching was not with persuasive words of humans wisdom but in demonstration of the spirit and a power.. I believe the demonstration of spirit and power is talking about conviction of sin and conversion to Christ not spiritual gifts of healing or prophecy or whatever else. Just sharing. Couldn't it mean when he taught and demonstrated that the demonstration was the conviction that this is God's truth and God is speaking to me , and the conviction of sin that leads to conversion..? Isn't that the main work of the holy spirit? Conviction of sin and looking to christ for salvation from those sins? Just sharing
We believe that is encompasses everything that could be considered a demonstration of the power of God. That includes the simple preaching of the Gospel and the saving of souls and the power of the gifts of the Spirit. If you have a frame work that thinks these two things are separate occurances then I can understand. But if you think they are two things that happen congruently then there is no issue.
How do you hold on to sufficiency of scripture and supplemental revelation...."If Christians should expect visions and dreams as a kind of supplemental revelation from God today, then the canon of Scripture is (by logical necessity) insufficient for the Christian to be completely equipped for all that God would do in and through him or her."
Sufficiency or Scripture was true in the first century when Paul wrote 2 Tim 3:15-17-the central verses that teach that doctrine. Paul did not see any contradiction between “the Scriptures are sufficient” and “prophecy is for today.” The sufficient Scriptures command us to pursue prophecy. How would obeying the Scripture endanger sufficiency of Scripture?
@@supersmart671 Endager: to putting something or someone at risk of harm, damage, or danger. For example, "The reckless driving endangered the lives of pedestrians." Endanger: to place something or someone in a situation where their safety, well-being, or existence is at risk. For instance, "The economic recession endangered the survival of many small businesses." Endanger: This definition indicates the act of subjecting someone or something to a situation or condition that could lead to harm or risk. For instance, "The storm endangered the safety of the sailors at sea." Endanger: a synonym for emparel and implies the act of placing something or someone in a precarious or unsafe situation. For example, "The toxic chemicals in the environment endangered the local wildlife."
This has been one of the most blessed and enjoyable videos I've ever encountered on RUclips. I respect your pursuit of the spirit of truth, your compassionate desire to remain balanced, humble stewards of God's Holy Word. This is the kind of conversation all of us need to be engaged in now. We need a resurgence of those who recognize the whole counsel of God and His divine sovereignty in these last days, and who walk, while waiting expectantly each day for Him to send us to our tasks.
Holiness which is conformity to Christ in moral purity and fruits of the spirit and keeping yourself from the world and in helping the needy, this is what the Holy Spirit is working to accomplish in us. Isnt it ? Be holy for I am holy . 1peter 1:15-16. This is the holy spirit's main work in us I believe.
Just because it's the main work doesn't mean it's the only work. How do you see this scripture in light of what you said? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, COVET to prophesy, and FORBID not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order. 1 Corinthians 14:37-40 KJV
I agree. I'm just concerned that we make exercising spiritual gifts more important than a holy life like they were doing in Corinth. They were exalting the gifts to a position they were never meant to have.
@@mlj6293 absolutely! It's all about balance and our desires for gifts are to better serve each other and not trying to bring glory and attention to ourselves. We also must remember, it's as the SPIRIT wills. We are not in control of operation of those gifts. Only our surrender to be used. So we are in agreement!
I disagree that we should always assume ignorance. These men put out a documentary; they weren't speaking off the cuff. If they are ignorant, then they are ignorant on purpose, which is the same thing as being dishonest. They chose not to check to ensure they were representing scripture and Church fathers, which should disqualify them from ever teaching again.
22:23 ...Preaching gospel better than Paul...Don't need the power of God to demonstrate the message of God. So good point in that the power of God was used here. Buut, my question is are we not sharing the gospel today and people today are responding to hearing the word of God and being baptized and giving their life to Christ without any demonstration of gifts? how many today come to know Christ via a youtube video or radio sermon and with no example of a gift, or was it incomplete without the example of a gift? Are not more people coming to Christ today than in Paul's time and if so how many came as a result of seeing a gift in action? My point is you are saying we think we preach better than Paul because of lack of the power of God but I say more people know Christ today through the Gospels, hearing the word than during Paul's time numerically speaking I would assume and yet I do not see this as a result of an accompanying gift. And it's not because preachers today preach better than Paul it is because today Christ is still doing his work through the preaching of the good news and the harvest is ready.
In the new testament do we have any miracles being performed to a non Jew? It seems to be a case for the Jew. Even if it's for the Jew performing the miracle to confirm to him.
There is simply no good EXCUSE for ignorance on certain matters among people who are setting themselves up as teachers of those things. Is it easy to overlook a document from church history? Sure. Should you have looked for all of the biblical instances of prophecy and prophets before publicly teaching "what the Bible says" about prophets and prophecy? Absolutely. It's easy enough to do that my middle schooler can do it, and the boundaries are clear -- we know when we've searched the totality of Scripture.
So I was jiving with EVERY defense these guys were giving…I’m really liking what I’m hearing, then I hear that one if them actually think Benny hinn has true healing gifts…I think he is a false teacher by definition!! Matthew 7…I cannot agree with that opinion. Kind of bummed to hear
@AlanaL3 who said that in the video? I don't recall this exchange. We have openly stated on the channel that the prosperity gospel is a false gospel, I have heard Benny repented of that, if so, that's great. But I have also heard that he is back to the same old money-manipulative schemes. Whether he is repentant or back at it, none of us would endorse his teaching or practice.
When you say people are getting saved by seeing signs and wonders, does that not go against what Christ says explicitly? Luke 11:29 As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah. Christ saves sinners, not people that heard a “prophecy”. 1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. All the power of God is in the gospel, it’s all that is needed for salvation. That’s the miracle
This question will be address in great detail in our video next week "responding to the cessationist documentary Part 3" Matthew 16:4 and Luke 11:29 Some argue is a prohibition against using spiritual gifts for evangelism, but let's delve deeper into its true meaning. Firstly, it's crucial to understand the context of the verse. Jesus was responding to the Pharisees and Sadducees who demanded a sign from heaven to test Him. They were unbelievers seeking on-demand miracles to validate their faith. This is not a rebuke against the use of spiritual gifts for evangelism; instead, it's a criticism of those who want God to prove Himself through signs. Jesus himself tells us that the Power of the Spirit given at pentecost “namely prophecy and tongues” will give the Apostles power for ministry in their evangelistic efforts. Furthermore, the apostles themselves prayed for signs and wonders in Acts 4:29-30, demonstrating that they didn't seek signs in order for God to “prove himself to them” but as tools for God to reveal Himself to their enemies. This illustrates the positive role of continuationism in opening doors for evangelism through miracles. Certainly we would not call the apostles “wicked” because they sought signs to display God’s glory and proclaim God’s message. It's essential to correctly interpret Matthew 16:4. Rather than being a prohibition against using spiritual gifts for evangelism, it admonishes those who demand signs as proof of God's authority. Understanding this in the broader context of the Bible, where spiritual gifts are not mentioned as ceasing, allows us to embrace continuationism and the potential for miracles in spreading the Gospel. In conclusion just consider all the passages in Acts where supernatural activity is soverignly used by God to bring about the salvation of the lost. Tongues at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4): "When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." This event of supernatural activity led the the conversion of 3,000 Jewish people. Healing of the Lame Beggar (Acts 3:1-10): Peter and John heal a lame beggar at the temple gate, attracting a crowd, which gives them an opportunity to preach the Gospel. Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch (Acts 8:26-39): In this passage, the Holy Spirit instructs Philip to approach an Ethiopian eunuch who is reading Isaiah. Philip explains the Scripture to him, and the eunuch believes and is baptized. Conversion of Saul (Acts 9:3-6): Was clearly a visionary experience as Paul recounts to Felix, that he could see Jesus but the men with him could only hear what Jesus was saying. Peter's Vision of the Clean and Unclean Animals (Acts 10:9-16): Before Cornelius' messengers arrive, Peter has a vision in which God tells him not to consider any food unclean. This vision is a precursor to Peter's visit to Cornelius and the subsequent conversion of Cornelius and his household. Paul's Vision in Troas (Acts 16:9-10): "During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, 'Come over to Macedonia and help us.' After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them." Paul's Encounter with the Python Spirit in Philippi (Acts 16:16-18): Paul and Silas encounter a slave girl with a spirit of divination, and Paul casts out the spirit. This event leads to their imprisonment but also to the conversion of the jailer and his household. Paul and Silas in Prison (Acts 16:25-34): After an earthquake opens the prison doors, the jailer and his household are converted as a result of Paul and Silas' supernatural deliverance. Paul's Miracles in Ephesus (Acts 19:11-12): "God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured, and the evil spirits left them." Paul's Shipwreck on Malta (Acts 28:1-10): After surviving a shipwreck on the island of Malta, Paul heals the father of the chief official of the island, leading to opportunities for evangelism among the people of Malta.
@@TheRemnantRadio I’m sure you guys are very busy and I really appreciate your show. I do have a question for you. Do you believe that the gifts stopped for nearly 1900 years or is that something you would pushback on? And by stop I’m not trying to say that they ceased entirely, but rather that there was at least a break in their occurrence for that period of time.
Paul was nigh on blind in Acts 22 - the couldnt tell who the high priest was. God heals via gifts of the Spirit, not according to our will. Jesus passed that lame man in Acts 3 many times. He waited to do it through Peter and John.
So they say it's in Corinthians but it's less talked about in the other letters so = cessationism! So much for going by scripture only. Kinda like all the other Calvinist, ooops I mean cessationist stuff.
I had a quick look at Matthew 13:53-58 because it didn’t sit well with me how you were using that scripture. I haven’t gone to commentaries and can see very clearly you have taken that verse out of context, you are using it as if Jesus couldn’t do any miracles because they had no faith, as if miracles are some sort of synergetic thing that happens. The txt tells us he went there to teach and they dishonoured him because they knew he was a carpenters son, Jesus still did miracles there just not many because of there unbelief. So I think you really need to be careful with the way you are going about this as you are baking things into scripture that just are not there like you are saying about the opposite view, it will catch you out. It is disingenuous as There is a good argument for the opposing view or it wouldnt be up for debate, I’m just trying to stay as neutral as I can in this discord to get a well rounded view. I would like to point out that you are are doing the exact same thing you are calling out the opposing view on with baking your views into txt there is hypocrisy going here. My advise is to slow down your talking points choose wisely your rebuttal points and slow it down and use scripture more. Appreciate what you are doing I’m just trying to put something out there from a neutral point of view.
I think it is more likely that Christ did less miracles in that circumstance because people didn't come to Him, rather than they came to Him with little faith. One account of it says they were offended because of Him.
Matthew’s version says He “did not” do many miracles bc of their unbelief. Mark’s says He “could not.” I am well aware that Jesus did “some” miracles there, but peoples’ unbelief restricted the flow of power.
@@JBly4 what does “he could do no mighty work there” mean? Why does it follow immediately with “And He marveled at their unbelief”? I’ll tell you. The “and” is a conjunction, meaning it links the thoughts. Their is a relationship between “He could do no mighty works” and “their unbelief.” Matthew crystallizes the link by saying “because”. He says Jesus “did not do many mighty works there BECAUSE of their unbelief.” Putting the two together, Jesus could not/did not do many miracles in His hometown bc of their unbelief. That’s pure exegesis and most agree with it, including every cessationist commentator I have ever read.
@@michaelrowntree2005 It's a good response, but I look at it a little differently. As Mark says 'He could not' which doesn't mean power was restricting the ability, but rather opportunity. Given that before the statement they are offended by Him and after it states He lays hands on some and they were healed. The text seems to indicate those He laid His hands on were healed, where as others did not come to Him. I could be wrong, but it makes more sense than unbelieving and offended people went to Christ for healing.
@@JBly4Wow! There's a bit of irony in there. You play God by presuming to know what's in Roundtree's heart. He's disagreeing with an accusation of baking something into the text. He defended his position. You don't get to render a judgement of his heart based on that.
@@tpw7250 agreed it is totally speculation however let me explain my reasoning 1. Mathias is only mentioned once in the whole of scripture yet Paul wrote or was written about more than two thirds of the new testament 2. No where in scripture was the calling of any prophet, priest, king or apostle done by some random gambling technique. Yet Jesus Himself miraculously appeared to Paul to call him to the largest group in the world the gentiles 3. Peter was well known for acting impulsively I don't see where the Lord instructed him to cast lits do some random unknown disciple would have his name on the foundation stone of the new Jerusalem 4. Petet was given the vision of the gentile inclusion yet Paul and Barnabas had to fight to have the gentiles even evangelised. Only after much debate did Peter switch sides from Janes and agree with Paul So in fact even though the scripture does say where the lots fell I just don't see the hand of the Lord on the method Anyway it's just interesting to me and we will only really know at the end when we see the new Jerusalem
@@WhyPentecostal That is interesting, but I see it a bit differently. 1 - None of the other apostles are mentioned outside of James and John by name in the book of Acts. So it doesn't support the view. 2- The 'random gambling technique' is actually mentioned in Proverbs 16:33. It wouldn't have been unusual for them in that culture. 3 - Peter was actually making the decision based on Scripture, as opposed to being impulsive. 4 - I'm not sure I understand this point or the reference. Curious about that one. I would add to this, Luke could have, but doesn't make comment or even call into question the appointment of Mathias, and Paul mentions 'the twelve' on several occasions. I wouldn't dismiss Paul's name being one of the 12 foundation stones, but there is no strong Biblical argument for it. I remember John Bevere making this point as if it were a fact in one of his books. Glad you're not doing that!
@@tpw7250 yeah I am not dogmatic about these things I know that Zacharias was chosen by lots to burn incense in the temple I just have major problem with cessationists elevating the twelve to almost a deity when the Lord is no respecter of any person Not important just a pet peeve 🙄
Also, asking you to go to a hospital and heal people with your gifts isnt to prove that you have them or not, its to prove you're not a horrible person
Cessationist lack the power of God, therefore they have to justify why. Their conclusion is that the gifts of the Spirit no longer exist. They don't say, 'oh, I lack faith. I need to pursue God.' They think they already have everything. This is an issue of their own hearts.
While watching the video and reading live comments as well as some of the comments here it’s really really sad. The parsing and mincing of words and accusations hurled out at the guys was not only unfair with ridiculous expectations but was obviously motivated out of pride and not out of love. It’s okay to disagree but a lot of these points are take minute bits of scripture to have some kind of gotcha at these guys which is absolutely insipid. You all have no humility and you are honestly not a smart and wise as you think you are. Your foolish and puffed up! Michael Rowntree and Mike Miller you handled yourselves very well in the midst of these childish people looking only to spit. I applaud you and many thanks to you. I do not have that kind of patience.
So you are everywhere preaching the gospel? Emptying out jails too? Healing and salvation has to be by Holy Spirit as we take the gospel. I do not see every person getting saved, even as I do not see many healed. I do pray for many to be healed , only some are. Praise God for those who are.
Because they didn’t do that in the New Testament. Jesus didn’t even do that in his home town of Nazareth (read Mark 6). Leonard Ravenhill (not a Pentecostal charismatic by any means but not cessationist either) healed 7 people in a row from cancer wards through prayer. He believed in divine healing, not instant faith healing like a superpower.
The inherent problem with ppl who use this argument is that ppl don't have any inherent ability to heal someone. God is the one who does the actual healing, and He has to bestow that ability upon someone anyway. God doesn't give every Christian that ability, so continualists are NOT under the burden of proving their position is true by healing someone.
This is a valid argument, and even in the video RR referenced Acts 28 which tells about the time that Paul went to someone on the island and healed them from a constant fever. What soon followed was the rest of the island, who had diseases, were healed. So the question still remains, why isn't there someone who is moved by compassion to go and heal at least 1 person at a hospital? Surely there is at least 1 believer of Christ present at a hospital that would want to be healed. In addition, with the vast amount of hospitals surely there must be 1 person that may be moved to faith through the gift of healing who aren't believers. I grew up in multiple pentecostal churches and charismatic churches who prophesied over me and proclaimed healing over my older brother who had a genetic blood disease. Yet none of those prophesies came to past and my brother never got miraculously healed from his genetic blood disease on that day that he was prayed over. Mind you, these are multiple churches who are asserting they have the "gifts". Now I'm ultra conservative in my theology and would align more with John MacArthur and Steven Lawson on theological doctrines. I have learned that the Scripture is enough and the finished work of Christ is enough. What profits a person if they are supernaturally healed yet die in their iniquities. They would be no different than Judas who betrayed Christ (though he healed people and casted out demons in Matthew 10); or the ones who were struck down in the wilderness after witnessing God’s supernatural work against Egypt and still worshiped a golden calf. Therefore the greatest miraculous work of all is the work of Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection in which He said "it is finished"! That is all we need, to God be the glory.
Thank you guys for breaking these down. I’ve been anticipating the release of this documentary so I could hear your thoughts on it. I recently left my cessationist church/beliefs. My former pastor is in this documentary…clips of this documentary were filmed in my former church! I love my former pastor/church so much, but I am no longer a cessationist. I spent the last 8 years as a cessationist, but The last year I have wrestled with this topic and this is where I have ended up. Remnant Radio- God has used you in my life, along with Jack Deere and Sam Storms. I’m very grateful. ❤️
So sorry you had to leave your church. That's always painful. Praying that you'll experience the things you've come to believe as well.
@@michaelmiller5024 Thanks so much, Miller! I really appreciate you guys and your ministry!
@@michaelmiller5024 if you wouldn’t mind, would you please pray we find a church that is both rich in the word and spirit in our town? It’s been a challenge finding a new church home.
Years ago I was in a Bible study group where there was a woman with two young boys who had got divorced a year or two earlier. Her sons were alone at home after school while she was working. One day the younger son showed her what the older one was up to while she was not there - there was a sheet in his cupboard with a cut up Bible, a knife, and his blood was on the sheet. Strange things were happening in their house, like mist coming up in the middle of the day and things moving around. She was desperately looking for help at all the mainstream churches, but nobody would take her seriously or knew what to do. She ended up going to a weird sect whose members were willing to go to her house and pray, and the manifestations disappeared. I guess that's one illustration of why cessationism is actually dangerous.
That has nothing to do with cessationism. Cessationism is the belief that the apostolic sign gifts ceased with the office of Apostle and the completion of the Canon. I am a cessationist and I was a demonic drug and sex addict. I dabbled in witchcraft and had gnarly terrifying things happen before I got saved.
That kid son needs to repent and believe the gospel.
Hey how do you tell a kid to repent?especially if he's a toddler manifesting ???
@chrisjohnson9542 it does though
@@chrisjohnson9542 it is absolutely relevant to Cessationism. If a Cessy pastor won’t cast out a demon for you (he won’t, cause he don’t believe in that), then who is a normal church-goer supposed to go to for help? A Catholic exorcist? A pagan? A witch? New Age?
If “just repent and believe in Jesus” is a sufficient answer, then why did Paul and Silas cast out the demon in Philippi in Acts 16? Why didn’t they just preach the gospel to the demon-possessed girl? Why didn’t they just tell her to repent? Isn’t that sufficient? I’d love to hear your answer.
@@chrisjohnson9542It has everything to do with cessationism. What would have done if thise lady came to you with that story? I would have went to her house because I've already done exactly that several times and with success.
You would have told her to tell her son to repent? Wouldnt even visit her house to tell the child to repent? I would love to see how that would've went and the demons would've still had free reign over her house if she remained at a cessationists church.
You people dont help anyone, you just bash Charismatics and push your doctrine for new converts into your cult. But are you doing for the Kingdom? I know the answer. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
I like the way you guys correct each other from time to time. That's an indication that you are led by the Word and the Holy Spirit rather than controlled by group think.
I think its a classic case of "iron sharpening iron"
You guys have more than enough material to make a "CONTINUATIONIST!" movie. It would be both a great tool for the church and an epic troll for our cessationost brothers and sisters.
It may be something we end up doing!
@@TheRemnantRadioPlease do it!
I'd "kick start" that in a heartbeat!
What would be needed for that? I definitely enjoy the fact that remnant radio is willing to have the conversations with Christian’s of all persuasions
@@TheRemnantRadiowe believe in you in being able to do such continuationalist film and will be waiting indeed 😊!
I was convinced that the gifts had ceased as well until I started listening to Arabs & Jews who literally knew very little about Christ or the New Testament. Most only knew to call onto him to ask him to come into their life, then they would speak in tongues, and describe Christs presence. From those moments on they gave their lives to Christ. If the gifts have ceased completely then how is that to be explained or how is that even possible? I can’t ignore nor would I dare to say that’s not of Christ. How is that not of Christ? Arabs who are lost & miserable are reaching out to Christ asking for signs and instantly saved. I just can’t ignore these testimonies. I feel as though that’s a slap in Gods face! I do believe that people are taking advantage of the gifts or let’s say they are pretending to have gifts that they actually don’t have, which is causing so much harm in the church today.
That's amazing!
Praise God!
Keep going! All false doctrines are dangerous! Keep exposing the unfruitful works of darkness.
Thanks Daniel! episode 3 will be the best one yet! Part three will probably cover Hebrews 2:2-3, The Wicked Generation That Seeks A Sign From Matthew 16, and Lies About Church History.
Great point about paul "The idea that the gifts wouldn't accompany teaching today means that you think you can preach better than Paul the apostle." Convicting for me even as a continuationists!
I disagree, clearly many ppl today are coming to christ because they heard someone preach the gospel and responded to the word with no signs or wonders and moreso now than in Paul's time. That doesnt mean we preach better than Paul today only that the Lord's work carries on successfully. Do you believe that today ppl are getting saved only because gifts are accompanying the teaching or are ppl still being saved regardless?
Thanks Josh
@@JL-qe7ofPeople can join an Army, and not be given a weapon. How do you think that would work out for the Army as a whole? Sure, you can have medics and administration, but if you don't have soldiers with "power"- weapons- then the battle will not move in favor of the Army. And it doesn't seem that the battle is going to well, if you look at the evidence in the culture and in the culture of the Church. I say we need to equip our soldiers for the war we are in with the dark forces of this age.
@@JL-qe7offair point! R W Shambach preached to 50, 000 Pakistani, but none came for the alter call. He was perplexed. Then he looked down and saw a lame and blind man brought them up on stage, got them healed! Then gave an alter call 5,000 gave their hearts to Jesus. (I don’t have the book in front of me this is the just of the story) My point is the Holy Spirit gives tools (gifts), for Kingdom building.
I just keep coming back to the idea that I can't conceive of anyone arriving at a cessationist position if they just read Scripture without someone having already told them what they're supposed to think about it. Would a simple, plain reading of Scripture ever leave you with the idea that all of these gifts are *not* something the Church should expect?
The church has been edified and God has been glorified!
Good job once again Remnant team!
Thank you David
YAS! Been waiting for this episode to come out. Great job!
From "Basement Boy" to "Attic Man." They grow up so fast...
You can be charismatic and still believe in the sovereignty of God, and still ask for these gifts and miracles and then submit to God’s will at the same time.
Haha the "fish slappers" were the Ninevites in the story of Jonah and the giant fish. So good!
Glad someone knew what I was talking about LOL
Brothers, I have have a unique question.
I newly moved to Calgary in Alberta, Canada, and I’m looking for a church, which hasn’t been easy because I’m looking for a balanced theology of fidelity with the scriptures and a continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In order words, I’m looking to avoid the extremes and these conversations have stirred in me again a desire not to settle for the hyper charismatic or the hyper reformed, if that's feasible.
Do you have a church finder, or any sort of recommendation for a church in my neck of the woods?
Good bless 🙏🏽❤️🔥👑
Either try out some of the CHA churches, often non-denominational... or Check out a Calvary Chapel... very balanced approach and acceptance of the Gifts of the Spirit.
@@sdikkers1 Thank you! I plan to visit a Calvary Chapel church this weekend. What's a CHA church? What does CHA stand for?
The bit about God's Divine Agency was spot on. Sadly, many view Pentecostals as biblically unlearned and imprecise because of those out on the charismatic fringe. Well said gentlemen.
That Mark 10 breakdown was amazing!
If you like that you are really going to like next week when we tackle Matthew 16 "A Wicked Generation Seeks Signs" 🙄
You are right, Josh, cessationism is dangerous. The reason it is dangerous is because it leaves cessationists unprepared to deal with, in the power of the Holy Spirit, false messiahs, apostles, and prophets (especially the ultimate false messiah [Antichrist] and his false religious leader [the false prophet]) who, through signs, wonders, and miracles, will deceive virtually the whole world into following them to destruction.
no, because false prophets, messiahs and apostles can be easily falsified by the Bible
and the signs and wonders will just further confirm that they are from the devil
you know who will fall for the miracles of the anti christ? the charismatics who's theology is very shallow and weak, they seek for signs and will easily fall for the antichrist who shows actual undeniable miracles
you have it completely backwards
just look at how many people are led astray by bethel and other false churches who "do miracles"
16:24 Maybe it shouldn't be called Acts of the Apostles but of the exalted Christ....Lightbulbs! What a blinding flash of the obvious! Thank you. When I knocked on exploring the 'continuationist' door before, I ran into what has been mentioned so much in other places--lack of explanation coming from the Bible--in a systematic or apologetic type way. Or something more cohesive than random Bible verses. When it is native to one's understanding maybe it is more difficult to explain? I couldn't bridge that gap. Thank you to you all and those you have recommended for bridging that gap in a way I can understand...and even challenging the lack of Biblical backing the other way. I am thankful for this video that you are reviewing because it allows me to hear your case more fully. It sounds strange to those who already swim in these waters comfortably but I felt I had come to the point where I was having to trade the centrality of Christ in everything for an emphasis in the experiential. This comment was an answer to prayer. Of course that's not true! This show is doing a lot to remove the negative shadows cast by the abusers...maybe a new movement yet in this arena? Apologetic continuationism? 🙂Even in cessationist circles there is abuse and extremes besides what is mentioned here. Again, thank you! What are those commentaries anyway?
Very good talk. I do think the more dangerous side of cessationism is, you can call the genuine work of the Holy Spirit the work of the devil and blasphemy the Holy Spirit.
Thanks for the encouragement, Brendon. I am not confident that cessationists mistakenly calling miracles demonic is, in fact, blasphemy. I admit it seems close, but I am pretty confident that the blasphemy that Jesus speaks of there is knowing that these miracles are from God and then calling them demonic. I think most cessationists are calling this stuff demonic out of ignorance not mallace.
Or their calling it demonic because it actually is demonic. Many examples of this throughout scripture. And millions of examples in hyper charismatic churches
In my early years a young lady visiting our A/G church was moved on by the Holy Spirit, and had a wonderful experience speaking in tongues, her Church of Christ elder tried tell her that she was deceived. She invited me to talk with him but he would not acknowledge the scriptures. The good news is that she was encouraged, since he could not shut me down scripturally. Ps, i only went because she asked me to , i wasnt looking for trouble.
@@micheletisdale7467what are you talking about? Chapter and verse please?
@MikeSheasheaDtree Surely, you don't need me to provide a chapter and verse for the account of Moses and Aaron with Pharaoh's magicians or the slave girl who had a spirit of divination. I'd be more than happy, though, to provide you with chapter and verses so you can educate yourself, since you don't know what I am talking about
Jer 23
Ezekiel 13
Matthew 7:15-23
Matthew 24:24
2 Thes 2:8-12
2Peter 2:1-3
Romans 16:18
2 Corin 2:17
Acts 20:28-31
Gal 1:6-9
1John 4:1
2John 1:7-11
John 8:44
2Corin 11:13-15
All that glitters is not gold ~William Shakespeare
Just a curious questions. You make mentioned that 1 Thessalonians was written after 1 Corinthians but I could not find anything to support that claim. Everything I was able to locate shows a date before 1 Corinthians
Would love to hear your thoughts, as me being a continuationist, regarding how we see an authority of healing in some parts of the Bible versus a "prayer." For example where they say i dont have money but what i do have i give to you... take up your mat and walk. It wasnt a "God if its your will... please heal this person..." etc (not to say you said to pray like this). This is just a frequent thing i contemplate. They had such a confidence over their union with God to perform these acts. Now days we seem loosey goosey and cant rely on Him type of thing yet still believing in miracles
Jesus also tells them that if they have the faith of a mustard seed they can move mountains. However, that was in response to the apostles trying to cast out a demon but they couldn’t and Jesus had to correct them and called them a “faithless generation”. So they weren’t always successful when operating in the gifts. I think the point is that we always have the faith that God will heal and believe for it but it’s ultimately God’s decision on whether it happens or not.
In this video we tackle that subject. Hope this is helpful!
ruclips.net/user/live-L-3stP5Z-U?si=bcpywqt8z5eCEILk
Thanks guys. great 2nd episode. I want to encourage you to not worry so much about offending secessionists. Sometimes peoples faults or sins, especially of leaders, were rebuked before all so that others may fear. You guys are nice enough as it is and great people. The many secessionists are leading droves of others, who are tired of what they think is all charasmania, into dangerous ground. A lot is at stake. Blessings
How come the biblical qualifications for elders do not mention the sign gifts? Same with deacons? Why were the list of Spiritual gifts becoming shorter after 1 Corinthians 12?
Because working miracles doesn't mean you're a responsible administrator? Picking people for practical reasons has nothing to do with the frequency of the miraculous. Miracles weren't dying out.
Where are other lists?
LOL @ 2:21 “no, I just want to make us aware that cessationism is untrue” 😂 😆 😂 oh my gosh the comedic timing has me rolling
😂😂😂
And let's look at Matthew 10 and 28 the other way around. Matthew 28: Make disciples of ALL NATIONS, "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you."
What's part of what He commanded them? In Matthew 10: Preach. Heal the sick. Cleanse the lepers. Raise the dead. Cast out demons.
Is that excluded from "all things"?
Love this documentary. It's very important, because I almost lost my belief in the gifts till I read the Bible well. Cessationists preach faith, but they walk by sight. Anyone who wants evidence before believing in the gifts should simply go and read the Bible again.
" The jacket slappers".... I like that. I think a big problem among hyper Charasmatic believers is that they are trying to do these miracles and healing in their own strength, out from themselves, not of the Holy Spirit
I have really enjoyed this series. Thanks!
I believe what the Bible says.I grew up Baptist in a church that didn’t believe in anything.Most of our church members were sick, and lived sinful lives.
Apostle Paul had an encounter with Jesus.He was not one of the 12 Apostles.
Stephen was a deacon and he was filled with the Holy Spirit and preached.
So, if you don’t believe anything don’t listen to or go to churches that do.Stop criticizing people that do.
Love you guys and LOVE this video thus far. Only 25min in and finding LOTS of good stuff. Haven't found anything I could unequivocally falsify thus far. I would just ask Miller one question in light of his claim that those giving the Gospel without demonstration are a few steps behind the Apostle Paul, what do you do with Rom. 1:16. For it sounds as if you are saying that one "must" accompany the other. That a Proclamation without a Demonstration is somehow lacking. On the surface this would seem to me to be in opposition of what Paul writes in 1st Cor 12 in that the Spirit distributes the Gifts as He wills. And that not all have the same gifts. It seems to me that the Spirit could give one the gift of Knowledge and , oh say, Prophecy (in the sense of Truth-telling) and be able to boldly and powerfully articulate the Gospel and yet without any gifts that would fall under "signs and wonders". I hope that makes sense.
Cessationists can make any argument as to how miracles happen all they want to, but when they start saying that Satan is performing miracles and casting out demons, then they are no different than the Pharisees in Matthew 12:24 saying that Yeshua is being used by Satan to cast out demons, and my mind immediately races to the next two verses: "how can Satan cast our Satan?"
Question. How does 1 Corinthians 12-14 fit with your argument at the 19 minute mark about all of us being endowed as prophets through Christ’s authority when it says 1. prophecy is a gift of the Spirit and 2. that not all have that gift? Thanks!
Not all have the spiritual gifts of prophecy, but all have the Spirit. Prophets will hear God speak regularly for others. All believers can hear God speak for themselves in a way that far exceeds OT times bc of the Spirit.
That’s one of several ways of answering that. We address this a little in Mondays show w Tania harris
What does slapping with coats mean?
its a subtle reference to Benny Hinn slapping people with his coat on stage.
the irony of calling cessationism dangerous but then promoting people like Todd White and Alexander Pagani
wow
Dear continuationist brothers and sisters, please keep the main Thing, the main Thing. This is why so many are still apprehensive, we've seen the slippery slope where something stated as secondary but slowly creeps into the primary seat. As for my cessationist brothers and sisters, please make sure that you have not created theological framework that disallows gifts that you attack and wholesale reject, and then hedge your bets by stating things like "...but the Lord can do as He wants." It sounds disenguous, similar to agnostics who profess openness to being convinced of God's existence, yet have framework that allows them to explain anything and everything away.
Sincerely,
Open but staunch
Casting down demonic, Laodicean arguments like "the gifts don't exist today" or "don't argue about secondary issues" _is_ the main thing(2 Cor. 10:5, Jude 3). All of the doctrines that exist in the Bible are there because they're all part of the gospel Christ preached, and not the fake gospels about Christ that traditional Christianity preaches.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 So you divide over the doctrine of election?
The conversation about early church fathers, after the 100AD mark was interesting for me.
The questions then if,
1. The person(s) who made the documentary are lying or
2. The researcher(s) are not particularly good, and only find "echo chamber" supporting history or
3. The researchers agree that these early church fathers mentioned @45-minute mark are considered heretics or
4. The historical documents mentioned here are not correct either.
Either way, for believers to claim to hold to truth, despise falsehood and lying, such behavior is damaging.
I personally would not want to associate with a lying brother, what else would they lie about
🤔
@@JBly4the claim we are taking the early church fathers out of context needs some qualifying. Also, the only one we quoted who was flirted with heresy out of the 6 quotes was Origen and we stated that plainly. The fact is the early church fathers use the word "gifts" in reference to what has continued. It's plainly stated and further it's inconsistent to say we are taking it out of context. Apply that consistently with the 2 quotes the cessationists film used. Either way the scriptures speak louder. We gave three explicit passages for a time stamp on the gifts. Cessationists film ... zero.
I can't wait to see this documentary
Looking forward to Part 3! Thank you, Remnant Radio!
Part three will probably cover Hebrews 2:2-3, The Wicked Generation That Seeks A Sign From Matthew 16, and Lies About Church History. It may be the best episode yet!
I don't follow the TV preachers. If the infilling of the Holy Spirit has passed, what happened to me 47 years ago at Hollywood Presbyterian Church? I saw miracles and received miracles. It's ridiculous to say the gifts stopped. We need them today more than ever!!!
My dad is so dogmatic about how the gifts of the spirits are ceased, saying the Bible says it because it says the only gifts left are faith, hope, and love. I can't even debate him on it. He gets aggressive about it. I love him and he's a minister and loves God but I really don't like talking to him about spiritual stuff anymore. I believe in the gifts to an extent. I'm still figuring out how much but I can't ignore the fact that you guys actually deal with dilverence which my father does believe in. I'm called to dilverence ministry but I don't know how it's all going to look for me.
im sorry friend that sounds dificult, I hope our content can help you figure out where you stand on the subject.
That’s rough, keep praying. It’s not easy to change peoples minds but God can. Keep doing what you do tho.
Sharing “Miracle Work” by (Dr)Jordan Seng a long time Vineyard guy. A great but meaty book. Also on RUclips .
Sounds like you're dad needs deliverance
Is it possible when Paul says, "Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom," that he's describing the same tension between demonstration and proclamation you speak of here. Given that the church was dejudaized and became largely a gentile institution, wouldn't that account for a lesser emphasis on so-called sign gifts over time?
God sovereignty chose that an individual’s faith is a factor in healing. So if Calvinism is true then isn’t it on God that these theologians are cessationists since Calvinism would hold that God determines an individual’s level of faith at every point in sanctification? Also, since all His decrees bring about His glory, shouldn’t we be praising God for these theologian’s unbelief since under Calvinism it’s bringing God glory?
@remnantradio you should translate these videos to other languages spanish please! there is so much people that need to watch these videos and i want to share to
I wish I could get more information on the Sam Storms commentary of 2 Corinthians 12:12. I'm looking at lots of translations and greek word study resources and everything and I just don't think that verse means anything but Paul is validating his apostleship with the "signs of an apostle" which were mighty deeds and signs and miracles. This is a great series and I think you guys are right on the money with most of your arguments, I'd hate to see that compromised with a good old "the greek doesn't say that" nonsense argument. He could be right but I'd like to hear a discussion on that point as I suspect some very competent greek scholars would take issue with his conclusion...I could be wrong. Seems like a parallel to chapter 6:3-10 where he speaks a lot of character attributes of an apostle along with mentioning the power of God...all these things might be included as signs of apostleship, but to say he's excluding signs I think might be disingenuous?
So, Augustine ceased being a cessationist?😏
Have you guys ever addressed the issue of montinists? I’ve heard that his desire to bring back miracles is evidence that they had died off.
I love how yall just be spitting FACTTSSSS. Cuz facts don't care about opinions or tradition. God bless you brothers. Keeps sharing TRUTH in LOVE. God bless, yall. Looking forward to Part 3. Iron sharpens iron.
Cessationists say miraculous gifts have not been operative for 1,923 years. Atheists overwhelmingly agree, although they say the number is closer to 16 billion ... minimum.
I love you Brothers so much, you always have so much grace! Perhaps you could address my concern, over the years I have concluded that there is often a spirit behind cessationism and it’s not the Holy Spirit. I truly believe deliverance is in order. It is funny/ironic how your typical cessationist also rejects deliverance for Christian’s.
I know of one person who doesn’t want me walking in power and exercising my gifts, and his lies are from the pits of hell. Just sayin.
Love y’all.
The only scripture I could use to defend the idea that a bad doctrine could cause demonization is the verse regarding tolerating a doctrine of demons. Outside of that I have no personal experience with it but I have friends who have had to cast out a spirit of religion because of embracing cessationism. Anecdotally I've seen spirits cast out for other bad doctrines such as Christian Universalism (this one being heresy).
I see that Miller has already responded. I can only tell you anecdotally that the ministry at our conference changed dramatically after we had pastors repent for teaching cessationism.
@@michaelmiller5024 Thank you Brother. Maybe I will refrain from barging into the next cessations conference with my high power Holy oil squirt gun.
But seriously, perhaps it’s good to just call it what it is, a doctrine of demons? Funny how the gift of discerning spirits must have ceased as well… God forbid.
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
John 6:65 NKJV
Not quite the same wording as "chosen" or "selected" but certainly does show that being a Christian does mean that God granted us that privilege and in some way selected us to be His children on a personal level.
Can’t wait to watch the documentary!!!
I remember when strange fire came out .
Its all strange until YOU get wacked by the Power of The Holy Spirit and nobody touched you and living water flows from your innermost being and you feel His power and love coursing through you😅 but yeah, some stuff in that movie was God and other stuff…i can not say
Love it.great job!
Thank you Katie!
Did you put a complaint to RUclips about a previous comment of mine! Or is it a hacker. Need to know! Cheers. Your shows only been on 4 hours and i haven't made a comment or even watched your vid and had a complaint from RUclips. Very suss! What's goin' on?
No complaints
@@michaelrowntree2005someone obviously playing silly buggers with my phone! Thanks buddy👍
@@jamiechippett1566I have had 2 warnings from youtube about comments I have made in the last few days. One said it contravened guidelines on bullying and another for spam! One of them popped up when I was on here but I know I haven't made any such comments. It said if I do it again they would delete my channel. Very strange.
My guess is it's spam.
@@littleboots9800thats youtube algorithms.
Couldn't the demonstration of the spirit with power be conviction of sin and conversion to Christ as we see happen in revivals? when the spirit is poured out and his influences are mightily felt people are brought to their knees crying out for mercy. I'm not a cessationist but I don't think the demonstration of power necessarily means spiritual gifts. Gifts are to be kept in their proper place, they're not meant to be the main thing.
That’s how Piper takes it. I think it definitely includes that but shd not be limited to it, considering that a good chunk of the book focuses on Corinth’s experience of miraculous gifts.
Very much agree that gifts are not the main thing. That fits w 1 Cor 2 tho. Power is for magnifying Christ and the gospel, not man.
Cessationism is not a new development of the anti-charismatic movement. It has been evident throughout church history. However, there is another side to the cessationist arguments and it was provided by a very early theologian of the church.
Irenaeus was born in the first half of the second century (his birth date has been suggested between 115-125) and died towards the end of that century. As one of the first great theologians of the church, he was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John. Irenaeus became bishop of Lyons, Gaul (France today).
Irenaeus assures us that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit had not disappeared by the end of the second century. He wrote in a leading refutation of Gnosticism, Against Heresies (written about 180):
“Those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ”.[30]
So Irenaeus knew of the practice of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit in his day. Thus, they did not cease with the death of the Twelve and the formation of the New Testament canon of Scripture. It is estimated that the last book of the New Testament was written about AD 95-96 (the Book of Revelation). Thus, Irenaeus refutes John MacArthur’s statement that “once the Word of God was inscripturated, the sign gifts were no longer needed and they ceased”.[31] Irenaeus clearly shows the existence of sign gifts in the church over 100 years after the completion of the canon of Scripture.
Irenaeus also provided us with the earliest undisputed authority for the authorship of the four Gospels: Matthew issued his Gospel among the Hebrews; Mark was the disciple and interpreter of Peter; Luke was a companion of Paul and recorded a Gospel preached by Paul; John, a disciple of the Lord, published his Gospel while he was in Ephesus in Asia.[32]
A descriptive secrion of scripture makes the specific claim that Peter and John didn't heal by their own power or godliness, meaning that it wasn't inherently in them.
Acts 3:12
But when Peter saw this, he replied to the people, “Men of Israel, why are you amazed at this, or why are you staring at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him walk?
Hi guys, just a thought. Is it possible that we have a lack of understanding about this issue. For example, Jesus NEVER said that the signs would follow JUST the apostles (Mark 16:18). now I had to include the part about handling snakes because it's in the scriptures as well. however we can find the application for the reference in Mark in Acts 28:2-5. so the only conclusion I could come to is that the signs that Jesus told the 11 was available to all who believe (should I use the word trust?)and also, does it behoove us to "press into " what the writer of the book of Hebrews 6:1-6 to take it as a invitation, but also as a warning;that we should conduct ourselves ,as brothers and sisters in Christ with the utmost respect, regard and reverence towards the LORD and His church MAY WE ALL (starting with me ) do justly love mercy,walk humbly, before Him. As I stated at the beginning, just a thought.
a mistake on my part, I meant Mark 16,verses 15 through 18
I dont believe in the gifts today, one question I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer for (maybe I can hear one now in this discussion); if we have the gifts today why have I not ever seen someone with the gift of healing go to St. Jude and heal those children with cancer and then preach the Gospel to their families? Or to any hospital with terminal patients for that matter so ppl can witness and believe? That means heal someone medically confirmed to be terminal, healed at will and completely with the power given to you by the holy spirit?
How come those with the gift of "tongues" don't have someone with the gift of "interpretation" there to interpret for the members what God is revealing to us at that moment as scripture says to do? And how come I have yet to hear about that member with the gift of "prophesy" who correctly and accurately prophesied the coming of covid and i mean in name and exact day and when we would be healed and for how long would the world be afflicted? Or the recent floods in NY and India, or earthquake on 9/29 in the middle east. And I mean clearly as in on this day, this earthquake, this many dead.
How come to date not one has come forward to raise someone from the grave so that ppl can see and believe in Christ who is the messiah? Has anyone here witnessed someone raised from the dead? Was this not one of the gifts?
Has anyone ever witnessed or can share a video where I blind person walked into the church and was given their vision? A deaf person who can now hear? Florida had a recorded case of leprosy recently. Was there anyone that could heal them? A cripple who could go to that church and walk again? Anyone witness these healings and can verify?
Isn't this what the early church did when they were spirit filled and so shouldn't this be so now if it is still for believers today?
I would still call you all my brothers and sisters in Christ unless I see you preaching false doctrines or denying Christ or scripture or preaching another gospel. I say this to say that I am not hear to refute your beliefs but Im a Thomas, so show me.
I thought you said 'one question...'
Read "Miracles" by Craig Keener which documents many things. Some of what you are asking for is baking a wrong definition of certain gifts into it. So you'll never see the thing your asking for because it never existed. Some of the other things are well documented in Keener's book.
@@tpw7250so pick one and provide a response we can discuss in ernest.
@@michaelmiller5024 thanks for the reference to the book I did take a look on Amazon and it seems to be more about miracles that happen as a result of Prayer or faith in God which I absolutely stand with you on. Are there examples of these miracles done by a person at will? That I would def want to look into. I believe we have ample evidence of miracles occurring as a result of God's intervention through prayer and faith but that would be different from someone who can perform this at will as would be given to them to do as in a gift.
When you say what I am asking for never existing what exactly do you say did not exist? My understanding of this video is that the argument here is that gifts are still given today meaning we have them. Aren't the examples I gave the gifts that were used back then? Meaning:
Joel 2:28 “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
Paul and Peter both raised people from the dead (acts 20:7, acts 9:36)
Matthew 10:7 And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay.
Acts 2: 1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Are these not the gifts that is argued are for today still or am I misunderstanding what the video is stating?
@@JL-qe7of again it depends on how one is defining a "gift." If by having a gift of healing you mean healing at will regardless of God's sovereign oversight then no. That gift never existed. Gifts are not super powers like a Marvel Superheroes operating independently of God. If by having a gift you mean when "in Christ" as God's Spirit makes manifest thru a person then all of those passages apply. Cessationists are claiming a gift of healing operates like the marvel superheroes. They are pre-defining what gifts are and how they operate when they are making these arguments.
Likely the oldest heresy not addressed. Just think how many millions of folks that were NOT healed because this false non-supported doctrine forbid them being prayed over.
Haven’t seen anyone put an ear back on someone who has had an ear chopped off.
Well, considering Jesus was the only one to do that, I guess that would infer none of the apostles truly could heal? Not really sure where you are going with this reply. In addition, you not seeing something doesn't negate its existence.
None of us have seen a single miracle Jesus performed during his earthly ministry. Yet, we still believe they happened.
I have never seen a man stand up in a massive crowd of Jews and witness 3,000 people getting saved in one gospel presentation. So, I guess the gift of evangelism has ceased. I have never seen someone drop dead during communion, so I guess we are no longer drinking judgment on ourselves if we take communion in an unworthy way. I have never seen someone drop dead in church after lying about their giving records, so I guess you can't lie to the Holy Spirit anymore. Those who have never seen a demon cast out must be off the hook for believing in demons. Also, those who have never seen angels should be off the hook for believing in angels. Man, this is crazy convenient. With this newfound logic, I can base all my theology on my experiences or lack thereof to determine what I will and will not believe.... 🙄
You'd need a prerequisite of peoples ears being chopped off... and it be SO COMMON that someone with faith might have their prayer answered by God from the massive pool of ear chopping victims such that its addressed and you hear about it.
I've never heard of anyone ever having their ear chopped off since the priests servant.
Vangough doesn't count, he did it in purpose and mailed to a girl, not exactly an ideal miracle situation, their no suplicant, the bodily elements are removed on purpose, and no one sought healing from God on it.
I haven’t met anyone with an ear chopped off, so if you find one (and they still have the ear), call me up 😅
Don't put your faith/doctrine in what you have or haven't seen. Put your belief in the Bible.
Ananias was used to heal Paul of his blindness.
Gradual diminishing of the gifts until full cessation sounds like hospice.
I don't agree with Millers view on 2nd Corinthians verse 4 were Paul's preaching was not with persuasive words of humans wisdom but in demonstration of the spirit and a power.. I believe the demonstration of spirit and power is talking about conviction of sin and conversion to Christ not spiritual gifts of healing or prophecy or whatever else. Just sharing. Couldn't it mean when he taught and demonstrated that the demonstration was the conviction that this is God's truth and God is speaking to me , and the conviction of sin that leads to conversion..? Isn't that the main work of the holy spirit? Conviction of sin and looking to christ for salvation from those sins? Just sharing
but you simply dont know that.
True. But we don't know it was spiritual gifts either
We believe that is encompasses everything that could be considered a demonstration of the power of God. That includes the simple preaching of the Gospel and the saving of souls and the power of the gifts of the Spirit. If you have a frame work that thinks these two things are separate occurances then I can understand. But if you think they are two things that happen congruently then there is no issue.
@115:18 so many fail to remember that mountain moving faith REQUIRES forgiveness Mark 11:24-25
Maranatha!
How do you hold on to sufficiency of scripture and supplemental revelation...."If Christians should expect visions and dreams as a kind of supplemental revelation from God today, then the canon of Scripture is (by logical necessity) insufficient for the Christian to be completely equipped for all that God would do in and through him or her."
Sufficiency or Scripture was true in the first century when Paul wrote 2 Tim 3:15-17-the central verses that teach that doctrine. Paul did not see any contradiction between “the Scriptures are sufficient” and “prophecy is for today.” The sufficient Scriptures command us to pursue prophecy. How would obeying the Scripture endanger sufficiency of Scripture?
@@michaelrowntree2005 When you say "endanger" what do you mean?
@@supersmart671
Endager: to putting something or someone at risk of harm, damage, or danger. For example, "The reckless driving endangered the lives of pedestrians."
Endanger: to place something or someone in a situation where their safety, well-being, or existence is at risk. For instance, "The economic recession endangered the survival of many small businesses."
Endanger: This definition indicates the act of subjecting someone or something to a situation or condition that could lead to harm or risk. For instance, "The storm endangered the safety of the sailors at sea."
Endanger: a synonym for emparel and implies the act of placing something or someone in a precarious or unsafe situation. For example, "The toxic chemicals in the environment endangered the local wildlife."
@@TheRemnantRadio according to this then the so called "prophecies" supplemental revelation does not endanger sufficiency of scripture?
This has been one of the most blessed and enjoyable videos I've ever encountered on RUclips. I respect your pursuit of the spirit of truth, your compassionate desire to remain balanced, humble stewards of God's Holy Word. This is the kind of conversation all of us need to be engaged in now. We need a resurgence of those who recognize the whole counsel of God and His divine sovereignty in these last days, and who walk, while waiting expectantly each day for Him to send us to our tasks.
The graph at the 58min 😂
Its wild!
Holiness which is conformity to Christ in moral purity and fruits of the spirit and keeping yourself from the world and in helping the needy, this is what the Holy Spirit is working to accomplish in us. Isnt it ? Be holy for I am holy . 1peter 1:15-16. This is the holy spirit's main work in us I believe.
Just because it's the main work doesn't mean it's the only work. How do you see this scripture in light of what you said?
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, COVET to prophesy, and FORBID not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.
1 Corinthians 14:37-40 KJV
I agree. I'm just concerned that we make exercising spiritual gifts more important than a holy life like they were doing in Corinth. They were exalting the gifts to a position they were never meant to have.
@@mlj6293 absolutely! It's all about balance and our desires for gifts are to better serve each other and not trying to bring glory and attention to ourselves. We also must remember, it's as the SPIRIT wills. We are not in control of operation of those gifts. Only our surrender to be used. So we are in agreement!
@@s4cakagospelgorillaz98 💯👍I agree
No argument here!
I disagree that we should always assume ignorance. These men put out a documentary; they weren't speaking off the cuff. If they are ignorant, then they are ignorant on purpose, which is the same thing as being dishonest. They chose not to check to ensure they were representing scripture and Church fathers, which should disqualify them from ever teaching again.
Well, we won’t smear you either, brother, for your belief in non cessationism.
22:23 ...Preaching gospel better than Paul...Don't need the power of God to demonstrate the message of God.
So good point in that the power of God was used here. Buut, my question is are we not sharing the gospel today and people today are responding to hearing the word of God and being baptized and giving their life to Christ without any demonstration of gifts? how many today come to know Christ via a youtube video or radio sermon and with no example of a gift, or was it incomplete without the example of a gift? Are not more people coming to Christ today than in Paul's time and if so how many came as a result of seeing a gift in action? My point is you are saying we think we preach better than Paul because of lack of the power of God but I say more people know Christ today through the Gospels, hearing the word than during Paul's time numerically speaking I would assume and yet I do not see this as a result of an accompanying gift. And it's not because preachers today preach better than Paul it is because today Christ is still doing his work through the preaching of the good news and the harvest is ready.
Would it be accurate to say that Cessationists are more Robin and less Batman?😂
In the new testament do we have any miracles being performed to a non Jew? It seems to be a case for the Jew. Even if it's for the Jew performing the miracle to confirm to him.
There is simply no good EXCUSE for ignorance on certain matters among people who are setting themselves up as teachers of those things. Is it easy to overlook a document from church history? Sure. Should you have looked for all of the biblical instances of prophecy and prophets before publicly teaching "what the Bible says" about prophets and prophecy? Absolutely. It's easy enough to do that my middle schooler can do it, and the boundaries are clear -- we know when we've searched the totality of Scripture.
So I was jiving with EVERY defense these guys were giving…I’m really liking what I’m hearing, then I hear that one if them actually think Benny hinn has true healing gifts…I think he is a false teacher by definition!! Matthew 7…I cannot agree with that opinion. Kind of bummed to hear
@AlanaL3 who said that in the video? I don't recall this exchange.
We have openly stated on the channel that the prosperity gospel is a false gospel, I have heard Benny repented of that, if so, that's great. But I have also heard that he is back to the same old money-manipulative schemes. Whether he is repentant or back at it, none of us would endorse his teaching or practice.
Having a gift doesn't guarantee a person's salvation. Deut 13. We've not made statements on his salvation.
I don't think Timothy needs a healing of his stomach to believe in Christ. I think he already believes.
When you say people are getting saved by seeing signs and wonders, does that not go against what Christ says explicitly? Luke 11:29 As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah.
Christ saves sinners, not people that heard a “prophecy”.
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
All the power of God is in the gospel, it’s all that is needed for salvation. That’s the miracle
This question will be address in great detail in our video next week "responding to the cessationist documentary Part 3"
Matthew 16:4 and Luke 11:29 Some argue is a prohibition against using spiritual gifts for evangelism, but let's delve deeper into its true meaning.
Firstly, it's crucial to understand the context of the verse. Jesus was responding to the Pharisees and Sadducees who demanded a sign from heaven to test Him. They were unbelievers seeking on-demand miracles to validate their faith. This is not a rebuke against the use of spiritual gifts for evangelism; instead, it's a criticism of those who want God to prove Himself through signs.
Jesus himself tells us that the Power of the Spirit given at pentecost “namely prophecy and tongues” will give the Apostles power for ministry in their evangelistic efforts. Furthermore, the apostles themselves prayed for signs and wonders in Acts 4:29-30, demonstrating that they didn't seek signs in order for God to “prove himself to them” but as tools for God to reveal Himself to their enemies. This illustrates the positive role of continuationism in opening doors for evangelism through miracles. Certainly we would not call the apostles “wicked” because they sought signs to display God’s glory and proclaim God’s message.
It's essential to correctly interpret Matthew 16:4. Rather than being a prohibition against using spiritual gifts for evangelism, it admonishes those who demand signs as proof of God's authority. Understanding this in the broader context of the Bible, where spiritual gifts are not mentioned as ceasing, allows us to embrace continuationism and the potential for miracles in spreading the Gospel.
In conclusion just consider all the passages in Acts where supernatural activity is soverignly used by God to bring about the salvation of the lost.
Tongues at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4):
"When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." This event of supernatural activity led the the conversion of 3,000 Jewish people.
Healing of the Lame Beggar (Acts 3:1-10):
Peter and John heal a lame beggar at the temple gate, attracting a crowd, which gives them an opportunity to preach the Gospel.
Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch (Acts 8:26-39):
In this passage, the Holy Spirit instructs Philip to approach an Ethiopian eunuch who is reading Isaiah. Philip explains the Scripture to him, and the eunuch believes and is baptized.
Conversion of Saul (Acts 9:3-6):
Was clearly a visionary experience as Paul recounts to Felix, that he could see Jesus but the men with him could only hear what Jesus was saying.
Peter's Vision of the Clean and Unclean Animals (Acts 10:9-16):
Before Cornelius' messengers arrive, Peter has a vision in which God tells him not to consider any food unclean. This vision is a precursor to Peter's visit to Cornelius and the subsequent conversion of Cornelius and his household.
Paul's Vision in Troas (Acts 16:9-10):
"During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, 'Come over to Macedonia and help us.' After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them."
Paul's Encounter with the Python Spirit in Philippi (Acts 16:16-18):
Paul and Silas encounter a slave girl with a spirit of divination, and Paul casts out the spirit. This event leads to their imprisonment but also to the conversion of the jailer and his household.
Paul and Silas in Prison (Acts 16:25-34):
After an earthquake opens the prison doors, the jailer and his household are converted as a result of Paul and Silas' supernatural deliverance.
Paul's Miracles in Ephesus (Acts 19:11-12):
"God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured, and the evil spirits left them."
Paul's Shipwreck on Malta (Acts 28:1-10):
After surviving a shipwreck on the island of Malta, Paul heals the father of the chief official of the island, leading to opportunities for evangelism among the people of Malta.
@@TheRemnantRadio I’m sure you guys are very busy and I really appreciate your show. I do have a question for you. Do you believe that the gifts stopped for nearly 1900 years or is that something you would pushback on? And by stop I’m not trying to say that they ceased entirely, but rather that there was at least a break in their occurrence for that period of time.
All I’ll say is never ask a cessationalist to help you pray when you have a loved one with a deadly disease. No faith for anything there.
😂😂😂 yeah verily
Paul was nigh on blind in Acts 22 - the couldnt tell who the high priest was. God heals via gifts of the Spirit, not according to our will.
Jesus passed that lame man in Acts 3 many times. He waited to do it through Peter and John.
Origen…”Mixed bag of nuts”..?😅
So they say it's in Corinthians but it's less talked about in the other letters so = cessationism! So much for going by scripture only. Kinda like all the other Calvinist, ooops I mean cessationist stuff.
I had a quick look at Matthew 13:53-58 because it didn’t sit well with me how you were using that scripture. I haven’t gone to commentaries and can see very clearly you have taken that verse out of context, you are using it as if Jesus couldn’t do any miracles because they had no faith, as if miracles are some sort of synergetic thing that happens. The txt tells us he went there to teach and they dishonoured him because they knew he was a carpenters son, Jesus still did miracles there just not many because of there unbelief. So I think you really need to be careful with the way you are going about this as you are baking things into scripture that just are not there like you are saying about the opposite view, it will catch you out. It is disingenuous as There is a good argument for the opposing view or it wouldnt be up for debate, I’m just trying to stay as neutral as I can in this discord to get a well rounded view. I would like to point out that you are are doing the exact same thing you are calling out the opposing view on with baking your views into txt there is hypocrisy going here. My advise is to slow down your talking points choose wisely your rebuttal points and slow it down and use scripture more. Appreciate what you are doing I’m just trying to put something out there from a neutral point of view.
I think it is more likely that Christ did less miracles in that circumstance because people didn't come to Him, rather than they came to Him with little faith. One account of it says they were offended because of Him.
Matthew’s version says He “did not” do many miracles bc of their unbelief. Mark’s says He “could not.” I am well aware that Jesus did “some” miracles there, but peoples’ unbelief restricted the flow of power.
@@JBly4 what does “he could do no mighty work there” mean? Why does it follow immediately with “And He marveled at their unbelief”?
I’ll tell you. The “and” is a conjunction, meaning it links the thoughts. Their is a relationship between “He could do no mighty works” and “their unbelief.” Matthew crystallizes the link by saying “because”. He says Jesus “did not do many mighty works there BECAUSE of their unbelief.” Putting the two together, Jesus could not/did not do many miracles in His hometown bc of their unbelief. That’s pure exegesis and most agree with it, including every cessationist commentator I have ever read.
@@michaelrowntree2005 It's a good response, but I look at it a little differently. As Mark says 'He could not' which doesn't mean power was restricting the ability, but rather opportunity. Given that before the statement they are offended by Him and after it states He lays hands on some and they were healed. The text seems to indicate those He laid His hands on were healed, where as others did not come to Him. I could be wrong, but it makes more sense than unbelieving and offended people went to Christ for healing.
@@JBly4Wow! There's a bit of irony in there. You play God by presuming to know what's in Roundtree's heart. He's disagreeing with an accusation of baking something into the text. He defended his position. You don't get to render a judgement of his heart based on that.
I belueve that Mathias was Peters idea but Jesus had an other plan called Paul
That's a big stretch
@@tpw7250 agreed it is totally speculation however let me explain my reasoning
1. Mathias is only mentioned once in the whole of scripture yet Paul wrote or was written about more than two thirds of the new testament
2. No where in scripture was the calling of any prophet, priest, king or apostle done by some random gambling technique.
Yet Jesus Himself miraculously appeared to Paul to call him to the largest group in the world the gentiles
3. Peter was well known for acting impulsively I don't see where the Lord instructed him to cast lits do some random unknown disciple would have his name on the foundation stone of the new Jerusalem
4. Petet was given the vision of the gentile inclusion yet Paul and Barnabas had to fight to have the gentiles even evangelised. Only after much debate did Peter switch sides from Janes and agree with Paul
So in fact even though the scripture does say where the lots fell I just don't see the hand of the Lord on the method
Anyway it's just interesting to me and we will only really know at the end when we see the new Jerusalem
@@WhyPentecostal That is interesting, but I see it a bit differently.
1 - None of the other apostles are mentioned outside of James and John by name in the book of Acts. So it doesn't support the view.
2- The 'random gambling technique' is actually mentioned in Proverbs 16:33. It wouldn't have been unusual for them in that culture.
3 - Peter was actually making the decision based on Scripture, as opposed to being impulsive.
4 - I'm not sure I understand this point or the reference. Curious about that one.
I would add to this, Luke could have, but doesn't make comment or even call into question the appointment of Mathias, and Paul mentions 'the twelve' on several occasions.
I wouldn't dismiss Paul's name being one of the 12 foundation stones, but there is no strong Biblical argument for it.
I remember John Bevere making this point as if it were a fact in one of his books. Glad you're not doing that!
@@tpw7250 yeah I am not dogmatic about these things I know that Zacharias was chosen by lots to burn incense in the temple
I just have major problem with cessationists elevating the twelve to almost a deity when the Lord is no respecter of any person
Not important just a pet peeve 🙄
Also, asking you to go to a hospital and heal people with your gifts isnt to prove that you have them or not, its to prove you're not a horrible person
1:17:17 hahahhaaa nachoooooooooo!!!!!
Cessationist lack the power of God, therefore they have to justify why. Their conclusion is that the gifts of the Spirit no longer exist. They don't say, 'oh, I lack faith. I need to pursue God.' They think they already have everything. This is an issue of their own hearts.
Yeah id say the problem is they walk in unbelief, therefore they lack power.
Attic man
While watching the video and reading live comments as well as some of the comments here it’s really really sad. The parsing and mincing of words and accusations hurled out at the guys was not only unfair with ridiculous expectations but was obviously motivated out of pride and not out of love. It’s okay to disagree but a lot of these points are take minute bits of scripture to have some kind of gotcha at these guys which is absolutely insipid. You all have no humility and you are honestly not a smart and wise as you think you are. Your foolish and puffed up! Michael Rowntree and Mike Miller you handled yourselves very well in the midst of these childish people looking only to spit. I applaud you and many thanks to you. I do not have that kind of patience.
Cessationist have much more faith in their brain power than in scripture... 😊
Why don’t ANYONE of you hang out at the hospitals and heal everyone in there? Never understood why you ALL vacate hospitals & nursing homes.
you clearly didn't listen to much of what they said. Better rewind and listen again, and actually listen this time.
So you are everywhere preaching the gospel? Emptying out jails too?
Healing and salvation has to be by Holy Spirit as we take the gospel. I do not see every person getting saved, even as I do not see many healed.
I do pray for many to be healed , only some are. Praise God for those who are.
Because they didn’t do that in the New Testament. Jesus didn’t even do that in his home town of Nazareth (read Mark 6).
Leonard Ravenhill (not a Pentecostal charismatic by any means but not cessationist either) healed 7 people in a row from cancer wards through prayer. He believed in divine healing, not instant faith healing like a superpower.
The inherent problem with ppl who use this argument is that ppl don't have any inherent ability to heal someone. God is the one who does the actual healing, and He has to bestow that ability upon someone anyway. God doesn't give every Christian that ability, so continualists are NOT under the burden of proving their position is true by healing someone.
This is a valid argument, and even in the video RR referenced Acts 28 which tells about the time that Paul went to someone on the island and healed them from a constant fever. What soon followed was the rest of the island, who had diseases, were healed. So the question still remains, why isn't there someone who is moved by compassion to go and heal at least 1 person at a hospital? Surely there is at least 1 believer of Christ present at a hospital that would want to be healed. In addition, with the vast amount of hospitals surely there must be 1 person that may be moved to faith through the gift of healing who aren't believers. I grew up in multiple pentecostal churches and charismatic churches who prophesied over me and proclaimed healing over my older brother who had a genetic blood disease. Yet none of those prophesies came to past and my brother never got miraculously healed from his genetic blood disease on that day that he was prayed over. Mind you, these are multiple churches who are asserting they have the "gifts". Now I'm ultra conservative in my theology and would align more with John MacArthur and Steven Lawson on theological doctrines. I have learned that the Scripture is enough and the finished work of Christ is enough. What profits a person if they are supernaturally healed yet die in their iniquities. They would be no different than Judas who betrayed Christ (though he healed people and casted out demons in Matthew 10); or the ones who were struck down in the wilderness after witnessing God’s supernatural work against Egypt and still worshiped a golden calf. Therefore the greatest miraculous work of all is the work of Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection in which He said "it is finished"! That is all we need, to God be the glory.
The LACK of Scripture in this cessationist documentary is ALARMING.
Craig S. Keener "Miracles Today" is a good source.
Welp your bootom line is threatened by the truth... so of course tou disagree with it.