Thank you for these discussions on the Trinity. Having spent 65 devoted years in Mormonism before leaving it, it’s been a steep learning curve on the basics of Christianity. Thank you so much for the integrity you show by presenting fair and gracious opinions and views. The way ‘Christians’ treat each other has, at times, been shocking to me as I’ve explored this new world.
There’s no biblical obligation to call God Trinity. The biblical obligation is to call God what scripture calls God and Trinity isn’t one of those definitions
That's because the trinity isn't supported by the Bible. No matter which verses trinitarians pluck out of context to justify their belief, there are always a multitude of other passages that discredits them. There is also the matter that the Athanasian Creed literally states it as being a _Catholic_ faith.
I know that this is late, but if this'll be helpful, go ahead and read John chapters 14-17 and every instance in the Gospels showing God declaring Himself. With a doctrine that is confusing, it's always just best to read the Biblical reference for it while listening to it. It's realistically not that confusing, however it is incomprehensible in totality. Also, Athenasian Creed, catholic stands for Christiandom as a whole, not the Roman Catholic belief. There was no split in the Church yet at that time, and to divorce everything the early Church believed in simply because of the word catholic...just to negate a previous comment 😉
This was so good. My mind can often barley comprehend it but you made it so clear. At one point, Josh got going and my heart was so full. I don't know if helps but I couldn't access this stream until the next day. I saw you were having problems with the live stream
Would you guys consider interviewing someone like David Bernard, who holds to the Oneness of God, or is the trinity where the line is drawn of entertaining theological questions from fellow believers? I’d encourage you to look him up, if you’re not already familiar. God bless!
i can't seem to find in the Bible where it says you must believe the Father and the Son are the same person to be saved The Bible tells me in no uncertain terms that “if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Rom. 10,9). The Bible tells me that “no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand” (John 10,29). The Bible tells me, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved” (John 3,16-17).
When I read the Shema I find it strange the redundancy that it says here Israel the Lord our God is one, God in is for knowledge seen the Trinity debate coming up
Good explanation, however still hard to wrap my head around why we have to understand this perfectly to be saved. Like when I think about the OT with Abraham, Moses etc where it’s not really clear which person of the Godhead it is (some ppl say it’s just the Father in the OT but I think there are a few times when it could have been pre incarnate Jesus speaking) those OT people knew God and walked with Him but they didn’t necessarily have an understanding of the trinity the way we define it. And would have the earliest Jewish believers had that understanding? I do believe in the trinity but these are just questions I have 😅
They believed in the "Two Powers," So they were essentially Binatarians. There are many, many places in the Hebrew Bible where "Angel of Yahweh" is interchangeable with "Yahweh." The Two Powers theology was deemed heresy around 100 A.D. because so many Jews were converting to Christianity.
Well they would say you're a heretic the Bible is very clear over and over there's only one God not three the scripture they're given says nothing about a trinity I know there's a godhead and I know Jesus is God I'd like for them to show me where the Bible says these things where does it say you have to agree with you way they see it or you're not saved
I understand the concern about the 'heresy' part of comparing God or the Trinity to earthly, known things. However, God compares himself metaphorically to things like a mother hen in the scriptures in order to help us have some measure of understanding of Him through relatable things. The Lord is my Shepherd. He is a potter. I am the Bread of Life. I am the Light of the world. I am the door. He is the rock that was rejected. Perhaps there is a good metaphorical way to help people understand the Trinity without coming close to heresy. We do have to be careful not to make misleading comparisons. But comparisons in and of themselves don't necessarily seem heretical.
I highly recommend reading Gregory of Nysa one of the Cappadocian fathers and Beau Branson’s dissertation “The Logical Problem of the Trinity”. You can also find videos on RUclips with Dr. Beau Branson discussing the various versions of the doctrine. The solution to the problem is recognizing the monarchy of the Father.
Curious your thoughts on this....but when you exist outside time and space....couldn't you be 3 places at once?? Also I have wondered if Moses has some Christology in that Jesus ...God in human form... came to him to write Torah with him.....I am just starting to work on this....I would love to hear your thoughts...
Let me see if I got it right! If someone does not believe the Holy Spirit is a 3rd being, person or entity of the “trinity”, then that person can not be saved. That means that if the doctrine of trinity is false in reality, than those who believe in trinity (father-son-Holy Spirit) can not be saved either since they believe in a lie. Am I right?🤔
Read John 1:1 in the Greek. The first “God” is referring to his divinity but the second “God” is accompanied by an article referring to the Father the arche the uncaused first cause. The one who begets the Son. The Father as the cause of the Son is greater than the Son. The Father is the only one of the three who begets and spirates. This is why the Filioque is illogical. The Son does not and cannot spirate the Spirit.
Matt 12:31,32 talks about sayings blasphemy against the Son and against the Holy Spirit but the Father is not mentioned. Does that mean if someone blasphemies against the Father is ok? And what does it mean that it’s ok to blaspheme against the Son but it’s not ok to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit if they’re supposed to be One and like it says in 1 John 2 and 4 that if you deny the Son, you don’t have the Father? Can you have the Son while blaspheming the Father and the Holy Spirit? (Thinking trinity here) Also, Jesus said that before his death and resurrection. Does that change anything? Or is it ok to blaspheme against Jesus even now that He is glorified? 🤔
I’m curious as to if the band analogy is inaccurate. The analogy is that God is like a band. There are 3 different persons but they are all still a part of 1 band. The 3 persons are all a part of one God. Is this inaccurate? What are the issues with this analogy?
There is no such thing as Trinity in Scripture AT ALL. You will find that MESS ONLY in the occult. Trinity means 3 in unity. Three *what* in unity? 3 gods, period! Doesn't matter how you slice it. You people have the WRONG God and wrong christ.
Why does Jesus have to show humbleness toward the Father when it comes to their level of importance or hierarchy if both share all the same qualities and power? And I’m especially talking about Jesus after being resurrected, not before his death.
Respectfully, there was a lot addressed here so I'm bummed you men didn't deal with the question of aseity. Aseity (self-existence; self-derivation) is a foundational and essential attribute of God, so, I think many folks wonder how three different persons can all have the same attribute of essential aseity without that constituting tri-theism. You guys have any thoughts there? The common response perhaps is to point out that the Son is eternally begotten (and the Spirit spirated) but the Father is neither begotten or spirated. But then it what sense can it be said that the Son and Spirit have essential aseity? Certainly we can't embrace some sort of "derived aseity," right? Seems like it's an either/or deal. Either all three persons are self-derived (and therefore looks a lot like tri-theism), or, just the Father has essential aseity (and therefore is the only Most High God). That's why I'm bummed it wasn't addressed. It might could be argued it can't get more foundational than God's aseity. I think a question that really gets to the heart of the issue (and foundational for understanding the Trinity) is something like, "Why is the Father the Father?" The same question could be asked of the Son and the Spirit. Why is the Son the Son? Why is the Spirit the Spirit? I think how we answer those questions brings us right back to the issue of aseity, right? If all three share essential aseity, couldn't we say that any one member of the Trinity could have been the Father? But if not, why not? Just a few thoughts for consideration.
“Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." - Mark 12:28-29
@@t.scottmajor1316 the problem is we do see God in multiple ways. But rather then attempting to define God with philosophy of men, we should accept that we have boundaries of scripture to adhere to. If we don’t understand how God is One, that’s not a license to call him Trinity and define him with non biblical definitions.
I can not get behind the eternal filiation concept. I don’t see how that wouldn’t go against the co-equalness of the Trinity. I mean the Psalms even state that “on this day I have begotten you” right? So in the beginning of as the word. Not the Son, Jesus became the Son when He was begotten at the incarnation. Son would then be more of a title based on function, then ontological distinction.
When you say the Father is “god”, the Son is “god”, and the Holy Spirit is “god” but they’re 1 God and God is 3, then you’re actually saying there are 3 “gods” and God (in this case) sounds like a reunion/congregation/meeting/gathering of 3 “gods” that share qualities or attributes. Or God (in this case) means “the species”, the “biological” kind/type of that those 3 “gods” share. For example, Chinese are not Japanese or Korean but they’re all humans; they’re not plants or animals. Then, the term God in these case would be (for those 3 gods) the equivalent or what the word “human” means to us.
1st John 2 and 1st John 4 talk about the Father and the Son in relation to a person having or not the spirit of the antichrist. You can not have One and not have the Other. If you reject the Son, you also reject the Father and vice-versa. Also, you can not believe Jesus is God but not believe He came in flesh or vice-versa. It’s easy to understand the practicality of the relationship between the Father and the Son. But these two chapters and most other chapters that talk about the Father and the Son do not provide us with the idea of a 3rd being, person or entity in that Father & Son relationship, except when it’s about the church or the people of God. So, if the Holy Spirit is not the Father and it’s not the Son but a 3rd being in the equation, and it’s a very important “person” of the Trinity, then why it’s not mentioned in those 2 chapters cited and/or in any other chapters when it comes to that “dilema” regarding believing or not believing the Father and the Son to the point that the spirit of the antichrist is involved?? Interesting! The Holy Spirit of the Trinity is as important as the Father and the Son but it’s not mentioned while the spirit of the antichrist which is not part of the trinity is mentioned. 🤔🤷🏽♂ By the way, we can say Jesus is as important as the Father but according to Jesus’s own words, the Father is more important than the Son, at least in a sense of hierarchy.
Question: Who is coming back in the clouds? Were at that point will the father be. Father and spirit are one in the same, which is in Christ. So to me all will be there. Spirit and soul are the same. Jesus soul is His spirit. The father is spirit, the holy spirit.
Jesus told the samaritan woman we worship what we know you worship what you do not know Notice jesus put himself in that category of worshipping God He goes on and says those that worship the father must worship him with spirit and truth for the father seeks such to worship him So jesus said worship the father but yet apostate christianity worship jesus instead
This is very confusing for me. Jesus says, I and my father are one. when you see me, you see the father. That's in Matthew. I do believer that God has 3 parts, like an egg. I don't think it's necessary to cut it apart like this, just provides more confusion for believers. As long as you believe Jesus is God and died for our sins, sent the Holy Spirit, seems unnecessary and opens up confusion. Just my 2 cents.
Man how have i just found you guys…… such great faith and theology is on point man. You guys are so rare man and I relate so much to you guys I just want the truth man and a relationship. Its al Jesus or nothing. The bible is the final authority not my opinion or anyone else’s extended version of the bible
I love y’all so much but this one is just really all over the place. Y’all y’all make it more complicated than it actually is. And Michael is a bit too critical of anyone’s thinking but his own. There is nothing wrong with analogies to try and help understand the trinity better. And I had never heard the pretzel analogy with Tony Evans and thought it was a great way to try and understand it. Also do no agree people are not saved because they use the Word manifestations instead of persons to describe the 3 in one God. Go look up the word manifestation. I think it illustrates it perfectly and does not take away from the deity of God. The understanding of the trinity comes by divine revelation and it’s a mystery to be discovered as you seek to know God more. And as we read The Word. I have about 50 scriptures that have notes and I keep finding more as I read God words. As long as people believe JESUS IS GOD then how they understand and explain it does not make it wrong. Anyway love y’all and learn so much from y’all! Agree on so much said here and agree!!! Just don’t agree that everyone else may be wrong.
I hope being saved isn’t totally dependent on believing the right doctrines. I was raised in the church, tried to read scripture and figure out the Trinity. Ultimately, I had to rely on what my church told me was truth. It feels like my faith is in people/theologians. So I don’t judge my JV and mormon friends. I know some of them personally and they are so sincere-they are searching too and really want to know God. Have you heard of inclusionism? It’s not universalism, but it’s that-if not in this life, then at the judgement, God will reveal himself to those who are truly seeking him. It will be like Paul, who really thought he was serving God, until he saw the risen Christ. There will be many included that we thought condemned. And many religious people who only loved themselves will be judged. Only God knows if he can save and restore a hard heart. If he chooses to destroy a person, it will be an act of mercy and love.
The gospel isn't about who is "niceest." JW believe "Jesus" is Michael the archangel and Mormons believe "Jesus" is a glorified human who is a half-brother of Lucifer. Neither believe in Jesus of Nazareth who is revealed in the Holy Bible. In fact, JW's and Mormons contend the Holy Bible has been corrupted -- which is why they have their own translation and Book of Mormon, respectively. If you can't "figure out" the Trinity, it's because you're a finite being attempting to comprehend an infinite Being. Stick with Scripture and let God's word be final authority. You should be able to defend the doctrine of the Trinity from the Old Testament -- remember: the first Christians didn't have the New Testament.
@@IndianaJoe0321 If our salvation depends on understanding it correctly, shouldn’t it be crystal clear in scripture? What is clear is that Jesus died to reconcile us to God, and that he rose from the grave and sits at the right hand of God. He knocks and we open the door , and he makes his home in us. The confusing part is that my Mormon friends would agree with that, they just add a bunch of buts to it. Some of my Christian brothers and sisters do the same thing, adding conditions and doctrines. Then we divide and distort the gospel, and make it look like it’s man’s word, not God’s. - a problem since the beginning- even for Paul. It needs to be simple for simple folks. Not for the elite or the scholars.
There are not 'buts' nor 'ors', @@rhondarockhound622 . The video rattled off several verses regarding the divinity & personhood of the Holy Spirit and Jesus of Nazareth. Even a slight, cursory study of the doctrine will lead the reader/student to a trinitarian viewpoint.
@@IndianaJoe0321 conflating the argument of the divinity of Jesus with Trinity argument. One can say amen to Jesus as God in the flesh and still not call God, Trinity. God in heaven and God in flesh. The problem two fold. 1- what makes them separate persons? 2- where does the Bible say they are separate and different persons?
Salvation doesn't necessarily depend on understanding the doctrine correctly, @@rhondarockhound622 . However, a true born-again believer will desire to know God and His word (Scripture). Thus, when the doctrine is seen in the pages of holy writ, a true saint will begin to know God as He truly is -- a Triune deity. My point is that a false convert (unbeliever) will fight against God and His own revelation of Himself in Scripture.
I hope sometime you guys will have on a Oneness Pentecostal like Dr. David Bernard, Rev. Bobby Killmon, Rev. Steve Waldron etc. I am a Oneness Pentecostal- you would be amazed by how many points of agreement we would have even though we clearly have significant disagreements. I personally attended a Oneness Pentecostal Bible College for a couple years and love your show for the history, theological discussions and stuff on the gifts of the Spirit. I would have disagreements in many areas, but I nerd out over this kind of stuff.
@@joshuapearson9950 i disagree with one pentecostals. To much Presuppositions and Esiegesis. I suggest to read the Bible at its context, not denominational lense. Oneness falls 100% apart when you study John 1 as a Jewish person at that time would.
1) You're worshipping a different God. 2) You believe "a different gospel" because you say a person is not saved unless s/he speaks in tongues. Repent before it's too late -- you're not guaranteed tomorrow.
@@regularstan6212 I agree that context is key- that is actually one reason why many so called Trinitarian proof texts fail. Context lends itself to the Oneness position. Also, super cool to get to engage with a Messianic Jew. God’s blessings!
*Here are bible verses showing that the Father and the Holy Spirit are united in Jesus Christ bodily, which means that there is a Biblical Trinity; The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit united 3 as 1:* *John 14:10-11* so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. *John 10:30* 30 *I* and *my Father* are *one.* *2 Corinthians 4:19* 19 *namely, that God was in Christ* reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their transgressions against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. *Matthew 3:16* 16 When *He* had been baptized, *Jesus* came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and *He* saw *the Spirit of God* descending like a dove and alighting *upon Him.* *Colossians 2:9* 9 For *in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.* *Colossians 1:19* 19 For it pleased *the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;* *1 john 5:7* 7 For there are *three* that bear record in heaven, *the Father* , *the Word* , and *the Holy Ghost* : and *these three are one.* *Matthew 28:19* 19 Go ye *therefore* , and teach all nations, baptizing them *in the name of the Father* , and of *the Son,* and of *the Holy Ghost:* *1 Peter 1:2* 2 elect *according to* the foreknowledge of *God the Father* , through sanctification of *the Spirit,* unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of *Jesus Christ* : Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. And also other examples found in the book of Genesis where God describes Himself in the *plural* : *Genesis 1:26* 26 And *God* said, *let us* make man in *our image* *Genesis 3:22* 22 And *the Lord God said,* Behold, the man is become as *one of us* *Genesis 18:1-3* *Yahweh Appears to Abraham* 18 Then *Yahweh appeared to him* by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 And he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, *three men* were standing nearby; he saw, *and he ran from the tent door to meet them,* and *he bowed himself to the earth, 3 and he said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.* *Isaiah 48:16* 16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, *I was there.* And now the *Lord God and His Spirit* *Have sent Me.”*
The easiest way for me to understand the Trinity is to see the 1st chapter of John as the quantum physics version of the creation of this Reality. God made is of photons,..light, phonons, sound,...the Word and He created a body to dwell in as a focal point which is how Christ can both be God and the first fruit of Creation. Everything of God within that Body is Christ. Everything outside that Body is the Holy Spirit and Everything total of God is the Father. When Christ came to Earth the Holy Spirit and Christ dwelt within together and the Father remained on the throne so that could only happen if they are also three Personhoods.
There is not even one foundation for the trinity of three different persons . God always say I AM ... ONE never say I AM three different beings. Yahweh Name is I AM and not WE ARE and this destroy the plurality of the false trinity. Jesus is God in the flesh and there is only one God THE FATHER. John14:8 8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?… (Where is the trinity ???) The trinitarians DESTROY the first and greatest commandment: Deut,6:4 Hear o Israel the LORD our GOD is ONE (not three)
This video explained the trinity but didn't give bible data for the distinct statements. For example, there was no biblical explanation for the definition of "persons" and "people" in relation to God and the differences between the terms biblically. I understand the explanations but there wasn't any reason given to believe them.
Does the Trinitarian doctrine have a definition of “person”? Where does God in heaven and God in flesh differ in personhood? Different spirit, different desires, different minds??… And if they have different desires with different minds, how then do they have perfect unity? And if they are in perfect unity in spirit and desire, how are they separate?
@Dustin Neely the definition of Trinity places dialectical tension in this statement. The Lord is One. One spirit, one will, one person. Unity. The Lord is One. One spirit, one will, three persons. If God is three persons, where does “their” personhood separate? If they have different desires, how then are they perfectly unified as one God?
@Dustin Neely btw I’m asking for a real answer not just antagonizing. Obviously the Bible doesn’t say they are three different and separate persons. And it doesn’t define them as Trinity. So Trinity and the definition of Trinity isn’t in scripture. Trinity is more of a “well it seems like three persons” position. And it depends on how you define persons. Jesus makes a pretty clear case that the immaterial of a man, not the flesh, is what makes him who he truly is. And if that’s true, then the immaterial part of Jesus’ existence is what makes him who he is. We all agree, we know he is “God in the flesh”…. So if Jesus immaterial person is fully unified with the Father, how then are they different people at all? And if Jesus’ immaterial person is NOT fully unified with the Father, how then do we claim perfect eternal unity between them in the Trinity? So the dialectical tension, and contradiction, is within the Trinitarian’s position.
@Dustin Neely it would take less effort and words to answer my question then to write the paragraph you just sent. Where is the separation of personhood? Spirit, will, or what. Can be a 1 word answer for all I care. I genuinely don’t know where Trinitarians think there is separation. One person told me a different “volition” which essentially means desire or will. Then I asked “so the Father and Son have different wills?” and I can’t get an answer. If they have different wills, meaning they are not in full agreement of desires, that seems like a problem for Tri”unity”. If they have the same desires, that seems like a problem for “Tri”unity.
@Dustin Neely got it. So to boil it down, from your position, what separates Father and Son? If there nature and will are same, what separates their personhood? Just location or
I’m a Protestant but now subscribe to the Eastern Orthodox understanding of the Trinity which is labeled as Monarchical Trinitarianism. The West’s version is Egalitarian Trinitarianism. According to Scripture, God and Father are synonymous and refer to the same person. God is not three persons because the Father is only one. God is eternally Father who eternally begets the Son and eternally spirates the Spirit. Their cause is the Father who is the only unbegotten first cause.
@@DavidReyes-qn1bq hahaha okay, pseudo-Protestant because I’m neither Eastern Orthodox nor Catholic. But if you also want to deny me that I’m fine with simply being labeled a Christian 😉
If you really want to break outside of your theological echo chambers on this subject you should talk to some well informed Biblical Unitarians. I could certainly connect you with some if you are interested.
@@cddpmpls35 This is a true statement and happens quite frequently in every Christian tradition. We’re all predisposed to reading Scripture through our own traditions’ lenses. Instead of letting Scripture inform our theology we read it to confirm what we’ve already decided to believe which is what we were taught. In this particular case, I agree with you about how they used the sacred text to prove their belief that God is one being who exists in three persons. To borrow a couple quotes Dr. Beau Branson provides in one of his videos available on his website: God is not the substance but the hypostasis who is Father - John Zizioulas Yes, the substance or essence is common to the three but it didn’t become ontologically primary until St. Augustine - Christoph Schwobël It’s even explicitly stated in the Nicene Creed that the one God is Father.
@@cm6246 ..appreciate your passion and I hope all is well with your heart and mind.. ..I do believe that Jesus is God.. ..Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.. ..Jesus came as a servant and will return as the king.. ..Jesus came as the lamb and will return as the lion.. ..Jesus came as the son and will return as the father.. ..and scripture declares this from genesis to revelation.. Jesus is my father, I am his son and we are one..
@@BipolarDistortion Satan quoted scripture to Christ, but did he quote those passages in their correct context? No. Trinitarians have been conditioned to read their belief into the texts. That's not the same as proving that the trinity is biblical.
I'm not a Catholic Catholics worship Mary I listen to like three of your shows on the trinity just heard you say that y'all go to the word I've not heard one scripture you just gave two scriptures not one of them said anything about a trinity I believe that Jesus is God the Bible says over and over there's only one God so I stick with the word there is only one God and where does it say if someone doesn't agree with the way you explain it they're not saved they're heretic I've heard you say that several times let's get in the word you've got to back up what you say with the word not no Creed the word
the trinity is not a word coined by the holy wind or the holy spirit . Therefore it has no relevance to what is holy. the bible warns do not go beyond what is written. this teaching is from the same people that gave you the doctrine of discovery consider the source
I have a strong fear that is I am not 100% convinced that Jesus is god. Thank the Jehovah witnesses for that in my raising. Someone's are going to hell for believing wrongly. A he'll they don't believe in.
Based on what I hear from trinity believers, it seems like they lie to themselves and to others by saying they do believe in One God only. And those arguments, terminologies and analogies to explain that God is 1 but actually 3 are silly excuses. Sorry but that’s what it looks like.
I see the godhead out in the Bible don't see nothing about Trinity and of course if Jesus is God the fullness of the godhead dwells within Jesus our lord and savior and almighty God
And you are scaring people who may not see it the way you do they think they're going to go to hell if they don't believe you cause you calling my heretic and I've heard you say people who believe in one God or heretics there is only one God
@@IndianaJoe0321 The Spirit knows the essence of the Father and of the Son. This essence is Love. Knowing Love is Eternal Life. John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” Galatians 4:9 “But now that you have come to know God, or rather are known by God…” 2 Peter 1:2 “May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.”
Funny, that the Author spoke about so many other things. but THIS is what everybody wants to talk about...to the exclusion of EVERYTHING ELSE that He said. Funny, indeed.
@@TheRemnantRadio There is no biblical obligation to describe or define God with non biblical words and definitions. So if scripture doesn’t say Trinity or define God as “three separate and different persons coequally existing eternally as one God” why should we add that word or definition to who God is?
@@TheRemnantRadio “I do think you need proper Trinitarian view to be saved, full stop”…. So you demand people have a non biblical word and definition to be saved. That is a man made obligation not a God breathed obligation. Respectfully, how is that not adding to scripture?
@Andy Ayala using that same idea, could I deny the ineffability of God simply because the word itself isn’t used in Scripture? What about his omniscience or omnipresence?
@@BipolarDistortion God fills the earth. The highest heavens can’t contain him. He is eternal and created all things and sustains all things. See all things. So I wouldn’t force the word omnipresent but the definition is in scripture. Trinity AND the definition of Trinity isn’t in scripture. We shouldn’t demand anyone define God with non biblical definitions. To do so is to demand they accept the words of men not God breathed.
Nah. As defined, the trinity is not biblical. With respect, the theory of the Trinity begins to fall apart and unravel relatively easily with 1 simple question. Which "person" of the trinity is Jesus daddy? The trinitarian doctrine informs us that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not the same but separate distonct members that make up God. Your Bible clearly states that the Holy Ghost impregnated Mary and produced Jesus. Therefore the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus. Matthew 1 (KJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¹⁸ Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. ¹⁹ Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. ²⁰ But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. ²¹ And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Christ always spoke of YHWH as his father. Since we know the above passage is true and cannot be undone, who exactly is the Father (YHWH) the father of? According the theory, they're not same. Sir, you got a theological problem. Jesus can't have 2 daddys. In light of the trinitarian theory, how are you navigating the fact of the "person" of the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary as opposed to the "person" of the Father? Please explain.
You cannot understand nonsense, the Trinity doctrine is just a CONVENTIONAL doctrine. No Trinity exists. The simple reason is that Jesus - the divine Person directly concerned - FOUR GOSPELS LONG states to be ONLY WITH THE FATHER, never with TWO other Persons!!! YOU MUST ACCEPT THE DIRECT TESTIMONY OF JESUS, NO INVENTIONS PLEASE!!!!!! Thus, of course only TWO BLASPHEMIES are possible: either against the Son or the Father. From the Jesus' speech about those TWO blasphemies, you can learn that the Father is called "Holy Spirit" by Jesus. This means that the FATHER IS A SPIRIT. You get confirmation of that from verses Jn. 4:23,24. To recap, the Father is either called "Holy Father" or "Holy Spirit" according to circumstances. "Holy Spirit" is just a "spirit-name" used to identify that Spirit.
Hello Jesus is the Messiah The Son of God The Son of David The Son of man The man God has chosen to be his anointed king The man God will judge the world through The man God raised from the dead Jesus will return and rule the nations with believers in the kingdom of God on the earth Jesus has a God There is no triune god in scripture Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. - Acts 3 13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him. 14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, 15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Notice Jesus is NOT the God of Abraham 13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.
There is no such thing as the trinity there is no such thing as a triune God, God is one, how dare you say to someone that if they don't believe in the Trinity they do not have the spirit, which means of course you have the spirit or least wise this is what you believe, you say the church has believe this for centuries well then it must be true, people have believe many things for centuries even millenia and it has been false, then answer me this, if the Christ was with God and he is all knowing why then did he say to his disciples when asked the question concerning the end times I do not know, and furthermore, if he is all knowing, how can that which is all knowing come into the world as a mere babe, one who knows nothing until they have learnt it, and there is no gender in the kingdom of god for God is without gender, so how can he produce a son unless it is of the masculine the flesh, you say he's not a created thing yet the flesh is a created thing, and The flesh has a soul and mind,
According to Trinitarianism, the following seven statements are true...
1. There is only one true God. 2. The Father is the one true God. 3. The Son is the one true God. 4. The Holy Spirit is the one true God. 5. The Father is not the Son. 6. The Son is not the Holy Spirit. 7. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
Putting these seven statements together...
Starting with (1): There is only one true God. Restating (5) in light of (2) & (3): The one true God is not the one true God. Restating (6) in light of (3) & (4): The one true God is not the one true God. Restating (7) in light of (4) & (2): The one true God is not the one true God.
So according to Trinitarianism, there's only one true God, and that one true God is not the one true God.
It's good on RUclips
One of the most concise and practical explanations I’ve seen! Such an underrated online ministry!
Well said!
Thank you for these discussions on the Trinity. Having spent 65 devoted years in Mormonism before leaving it, it’s been a steep learning curve on the basics of Christianity. Thank you so much for the integrity you show by presenting fair and gracious opinions and views. The way ‘Christians’ treat each other has, at times, been shocking to me as I’ve explored this new world.
Dizener, thank God we keep our eyes on Jesus not people.
@@Dizerner So sad to hear this
Tbh, even as a Trinitarian, it feels a lot like mental gymnastics and semantic philosophy to get that doctrine to make sense
There’s no biblical obligation to call God Trinity. The biblical obligation is to call God what scripture calls God and Trinity isn’t one of those definitions
That's because the trinity isn't supported by the Bible. No matter which verses trinitarians pluck out of context to justify their belief, there are always a multitude of other passages that discredits them. There is also the matter that the Athanasian Creed literally states it as being a _Catholic_ faith.
I know that this is late, but if this'll be helpful, go ahead and read John chapters 14-17 and every instance in the Gospels showing God declaring Himself. With a doctrine that is confusing, it's always just best to read the Biblical reference for it while listening to it. It's realistically not that confusing, however it is incomprehensible in totality.
Also, Athenasian Creed, catholic stands for Christiandom as a whole, not the Roman Catholic belief. There was no split in the Church yet at that time, and to divorce everything the early Church believed in simply because of the word catholic...just to negate a previous comment 😉
This was so good. My mind can often barley comprehend it but you made it so clear. At one point, Josh got going and my heart was so full.
I don't know if helps but I couldn't access this stream until the next day. I saw you were having problems with the live stream
Not a single scripture states that the Trinity Doctrine is a salvation issue
Would you guys consider interviewing someone like David Bernard, who holds to the Oneness of God, or is the trinity where the line is drawn of entertaining theological questions from fellow believers? I’d encourage you to look him up, if you’re not already familiar. God bless!
I love how you quote both James White and Matthew Barrett acting like they're in perfect agreement and harmony on this 🤣
I use the octave analogy. High middle and low C. All the same but different octaves.
I used to use three parts of harmony, one song. But, this may be neater.
i can't seem to find in the Bible where it says you must believe the Father and the Son are the same person to be saved
The Bible tells me in no uncertain terms that “if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Rom. 10,9). The Bible tells me that “no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand” (John 10,29). The Bible tells me, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved” (John 3,16-17).
Most people are taught the trinity before they’ve read their bibles, then they read what they have been taught into the text.
There is One God: the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Amen.
1 Corinthians 8:6
@@Elroi3310 John 20:28
Is that a proof text, @@Elroi3310 ? Your beliefs need to stand up to every verse in the Bible -- and they don't.
My parents know me as their son. My sibling knows me as his brother. Friends know me as their friend and coworkers as a coworker, etc. Yet, I am one.
That's how I see it but I think they would call you a heretic
@@frednobles2485 Hugh Ross in Beyond the Cosmos explains the Trinity in the best way I've heard.
Best y’allve Done on the trinity in my opinion
The trinity simply explained! Getting popcorn ready I gotta hear this!
When I read the Shema I find it strange the redundancy that it says here Israel the Lord our God is one, God in is for knowledge seen the Trinity debate coming up
Good explanation, however still hard to wrap my head around why we have to understand this perfectly to be saved. Like when I think about the OT with Abraham, Moses etc where it’s not really clear which person of the Godhead it is (some ppl say it’s just the Father in the OT but I think there are a few times when it could have been pre incarnate Jesus speaking) those OT people knew God and walked with Him but they didn’t necessarily have an understanding of the trinity the way we define it. And would have the earliest Jewish believers had that understanding? I do believe in the trinity but these are just questions I have 😅
They believed in the "Two Powers," So they were essentially Binatarians. There are many, many places in the Hebrew Bible where "Angel of Yahweh" is interchangeable with "Yahweh."
The Two Powers theology was deemed heresy around 100 A.D. because so many Jews were converting to Christianity.
Well they would say you're a heretic the Bible is very clear over and over there's only one God not three the scripture they're given says nothing about a trinity I know there's a godhead and I know Jesus is God I'd like for them to show me where the Bible says these things where does it say you have to agree with you way they see it or you're not saved
This was so BEAUTIFULLY done. Thanks guys!
The Good Boy is back in town!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I highly recommend the book the Doctrine of the Trinity by Stephen Gill! It will blow your mind 🤯 and open your understanding ❤
Josh’s final word about immersion in theology is completely true.
Would you say Oneness Pentecostals are hell bound? Phenomenal discussion and presentation keep up the good work gents 🙌🙏🏻
I understand the concern about the 'heresy' part of comparing God or the Trinity to earthly, known things. However, God compares himself metaphorically to things like a mother hen in the scriptures in order to help us have some measure of understanding of Him through relatable things. The Lord is my Shepherd. He is a potter. I am the Bread of Life. I am the Light of the world. I am the door. He is the rock that was rejected. Perhaps there is a good metaphorical way to help people understand the Trinity without coming close to heresy. We do have to be careful not to make misleading comparisons. But comparisons in and of themselves don't necessarily seem heretical.
I highly recommend reading Gregory of Nysa one of the Cappadocian fathers and Beau Branson’s dissertation “The Logical Problem of the Trinity”. You can also find videos on RUclips with Dr. Beau Branson discussing the various versions of the doctrine. The solution to the problem is recognizing the monarchy of the Father.
Curious your thoughts on this....but when you exist outside time and space....couldn't you be 3 places at once?? Also I have wondered if Moses has some Christology in that Jesus ...God in human form... came to him to write Torah with him.....I am just starting to work on this....I would love to hear your thoughts...
Thank you from Sweden 😊!!
Let me see if I got it right!
If someone does not believe the Holy Spirit is a 3rd being, person or entity of the “trinity”, then that person can not be saved.
That means that if the doctrine of trinity is false in reality, than those who believe in trinity (father-son-Holy Spirit) can not be saved either since they believe in a lie.
Am I right?🤔
Read John 1:1 in the Greek. The first “God” is referring to his divinity but the second “God” is accompanied by an article referring to the Father the arche the uncaused first cause. The one who begets the Son. The Father as the cause of the Son is greater than the Son.
The Father is the only one of the three who begets and spirates. This is why the Filioque is illogical. The Son does not and cannot spirate the Spirit.
Can you guys talk about Isaiah 63 and the angel of his presence becoming their savior
Thanks guys great video.
Matt 12:31,32 talks about sayings blasphemy against the Son and against the Holy Spirit but the Father is not mentioned.
Does that mean if someone blasphemies against the Father is ok?
And what does it mean that it’s ok to blaspheme against the Son but it’s not ok to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit if they’re supposed to be One and like it says in 1 John 2 and 4 that if you deny the Son, you don’t have the Father?
Can you have the Son while blaspheming the Father and the Holy Spirit? (Thinking trinity here)
Also, Jesus said that before his death and resurrection. Does that change anything? Or is it ok to blaspheme against Jesus even now that He is glorified? 🤔
I’m curious as to if the band analogy is inaccurate. The analogy is that God is like a band. There are 3 different persons but they are all still a part of 1 band. The 3 persons are all a part of one God. Is this inaccurate? What are the issues with this analogy?
The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is to be believed. But it cannot be fully understood.
Not true. Google Athanasian Creed and see if you cannot understand it. It's SIMPLE.
Yes the church has been deceived for over 2000 years over the Trinity Doctrine
There is no such thing as Trinity in Scripture AT ALL. You will find that MESS ONLY in the occult. Trinity means 3 in unity. Three *what* in unity? 3 gods, period! Doesn't matter how you slice it.
You people have the WRONG God and wrong christ.
Why does Jesus have to show humbleness toward the Father when it comes to their level of importance or hierarchy if both share all the same qualities and power? And I’m especially talking about Jesus after being resurrected, not before his death.
Michael Rowntree is like a more polite James White. Take that how you will.
Respectfully, there was a lot addressed here so I'm bummed you men didn't deal with the question of aseity.
Aseity (self-existence; self-derivation) is a foundational and essential attribute of God, so, I think many folks wonder how three different persons can all have the same attribute of essential aseity without that constituting tri-theism. You guys have any thoughts there?
The common response perhaps is to point out that the Son is eternally begotten (and the Spirit spirated) but the Father is neither begotten or spirated. But then it what sense can it be said that the Son and Spirit have essential aseity? Certainly we can't embrace some sort of "derived aseity," right?
Seems like it's an either/or deal. Either all three persons are self-derived (and therefore looks a lot like tri-theism), or, just the Father has essential aseity (and therefore is the only Most High God).
That's why I'm bummed it wasn't addressed. It might could be argued it can't get more foundational than God's aseity.
I think a question that really gets to the heart of the issue (and foundational for understanding the Trinity) is something like, "Why is the Father the Father?" The same question could be asked of the Son and the Spirit. Why is the Son the Son? Why is the Spirit the Spirit?
I think how we answer those questions brings us right back to the issue of aseity, right? If all three share essential aseity, couldn't we say that any one member of the Trinity could have been the Father?
But if not, why not?
Just a few thoughts for consideration.
“Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." - Mark 12:28-29
Right
@@andyayala5639 Yep, I would say affirming what Jesus said is more important than affirming what church fathers said.
@@t.scottmajor1316 amen
@@t.scottmajor1316 the problem is we do see God in multiple ways. But rather then attempting to define God with philosophy of men, we should accept that we have boundaries of scripture to adhere to. If we don’t understand how God is One, that’s not a license to call him Trinity and define him with non biblical definitions.
@@andyayala5639 I wholeheartedly agree.
I can not get behind the eternal filiation concept. I don’t see how that wouldn’t go against the co-equalness of the Trinity. I mean the Psalms even state that “on this day I have begotten you” right? So in the beginning of as the word. Not the Son, Jesus became the Son when He was begotten at the incarnation. Son would then be more of a title based on function, then ontological distinction.
SIIMPLY EXCELLENT THEOLOGY BROTHER'S
An interesting explanation, but what's the difference between a "person" and a "being"?
When you say the Father is “god”, the Son is “god”, and the Holy Spirit is “god” but they’re 1 God and God is 3, then you’re actually saying there are 3 “gods” and God (in this case) sounds like a reunion/congregation/meeting/gathering of 3 “gods” that share qualities or attributes. Or God (in this case) means “the species”, the “biological” kind/type of that those 3 “gods” share.
For example, Chinese are not Japanese or Korean but they’re all humans; they’re not plants or animals. Then, the term God in these case would be (for those 3 gods) the equivalent or what the word “human” means to us.
What does one do with chronic pain??? Help
1st John 2 and 1st John 4 talk about the Father and the Son in relation to a person having or not the spirit of the antichrist. You can not have One and not have the Other. If you reject the Son, you also reject the Father and vice-versa. Also, you can not believe Jesus is God but not believe He came in flesh or vice-versa. It’s easy to understand the practicality of the relationship between the Father and the Son. But these two chapters and most other chapters that talk about the Father and the Son do not provide us with the idea of a 3rd being, person or entity in that Father & Son relationship, except when it’s about the church or the people of God.
So, if the Holy Spirit is not the Father and it’s not the Son but a 3rd being in the equation, and it’s a very important “person” of the Trinity, then why it’s not mentioned in those 2 chapters cited and/or in any other chapters when it comes to that “dilema” regarding believing or not believing the Father and the Son to the point that the spirit of the antichrist is involved??
Interesting! The Holy Spirit of the Trinity is as important as the Father and the Son but it’s not mentioned while the spirit of the antichrist which is not part of the trinity is mentioned. 🤔🤷🏽♂
By the way, we can say Jesus is as important as the Father but according to Jesus’s own words, the Father is more important than the Son, at least in a sense of hierarchy.
Truly love this ministry
Question: Who is coming back in the clouds? Were at that point will the father be. Father and spirit are one in the same, which is in Christ. So to me all will be there. Spirit and soul are the same. Jesus soul is His spirit. The father is spirit, the holy spirit.
Had to listen to this twice
Jesus told the samaritan woman we worship what we know you worship what you do not know
Notice jesus put himself in that category of worshipping God
He goes on and says those that worship the father must worship him with spirit and truth for the father seeks such to worship him
So jesus said worship the father but yet apostate christianity worship jesus instead
This is very confusing for me. Jesus says, I and my father are one. when you see me, you see the father. That's in Matthew.
I do believer that God has 3 parts, like an egg. I don't think it's necessary to cut it apart like this, just provides more confusion for believers. As long as you believe Jesus is God and died for our sins, sent the Holy Spirit, seems unnecessary and opens up confusion. Just my 2 cents.
Man how have i just found you guys…… such great faith and theology is on point man. You guys are so rare man and I relate so much to you guys I just want the truth man and a relationship. Its al Jesus or nothing. The bible is the final authority not my opinion or anyone else’s extended version of the bible
I love y’all so much but this one is just really all over the place. Y’all y’all make it more complicated than it actually is. And Michael is a bit too critical of anyone’s thinking but his own. There is nothing wrong with analogies to try and help understand the trinity better. And I had never heard the pretzel analogy with Tony Evans and thought it was a great way to try and understand it. Also do no agree people are not saved because they use the Word manifestations instead of persons to describe the 3 in one God. Go look up the word manifestation. I think it illustrates it perfectly and does not take away from the deity of God. The understanding of the trinity comes by divine revelation and it’s a mystery to be discovered as you seek to know God more. And as we read The Word. I have about 50 scriptures that have notes and I keep finding more as I read God words. As long as people believe JESUS IS GOD then how they understand and explain it does not make it wrong. Anyway love y’all and learn so much from y’all! Agree on so much said here and agree!!! Just don’t agree that everyone else may be wrong.
Same...this was way too complicated
I hope being saved isn’t totally dependent on believing the right doctrines. I was raised in the church, tried to read scripture and figure out the Trinity. Ultimately, I had to rely on what my church told me was truth. It feels like my faith is in people/theologians. So I don’t judge my JV and mormon friends. I know some of them personally and they are so sincere-they are searching too and really want to know God. Have you heard of inclusionism? It’s not universalism, but it’s that-if not in this life, then at the judgement, God will reveal himself to those who are truly seeking him. It will be like Paul, who really thought he was serving God, until he saw the risen Christ. There will be many included that we thought condemned. And many religious people who only loved themselves will be judged. Only God knows if he can save and restore a hard heart. If he chooses to destroy a person, it will be an act of mercy and love.
The gospel isn't about who is "niceest." JW believe "Jesus" is Michael the archangel and Mormons believe "Jesus" is a glorified human who is a half-brother of Lucifer. Neither believe in Jesus of Nazareth who is revealed in the Holy Bible. In fact, JW's and Mormons contend the Holy Bible has been corrupted -- which is why they have their own translation and Book of Mormon, respectively.
If you can't "figure out" the Trinity, it's because you're a finite being attempting to comprehend an infinite Being.
Stick with Scripture and let God's word be final authority. You should be able to defend the doctrine of the Trinity from the Old Testament -- remember: the first Christians didn't have the New Testament.
@@IndianaJoe0321 If our salvation depends on understanding it correctly, shouldn’t it be crystal clear in scripture? What is clear is that Jesus died to reconcile us to God, and that he rose from the grave and sits at the right hand of God. He knocks and we open the door , and he makes his home in us. The confusing part is that my Mormon friends would agree with that, they just add a bunch of buts to it. Some of my Christian brothers and sisters do the same thing, adding conditions and doctrines. Then we divide and distort the gospel, and make it look like it’s man’s word, not God’s. - a problem since the beginning- even for Paul. It needs to be simple for simple folks. Not for the elite or the scholars.
There are not 'buts' nor 'ors', @@rhondarockhound622 . The video rattled off several verses regarding the divinity & personhood of the Holy Spirit and Jesus of Nazareth. Even a slight, cursory study of the doctrine will lead the reader/student to a trinitarian viewpoint.
@@IndianaJoe0321 conflating the argument of the divinity of Jesus with Trinity argument. One can say amen to Jesus as God in the flesh and still not call God, Trinity. God in heaven and God in flesh. The problem two fold. 1- what makes them separate persons? 2- where does the Bible say they are separate and different persons?
Salvation doesn't necessarily depend on understanding the doctrine correctly, @@rhondarockhound622 . However, a true born-again believer will desire to know God and His word (Scripture). Thus, when the doctrine is seen in the pages of holy writ, a true saint will begin to know God as He truly is -- a Triune deity.
My point is that a false convert (unbeliever) will fight against God and His own revelation of Himself in Scripture.
If the hs is God, and God is the one that sent Jesus, how can Jesus send God, when no one sends God, God is the one that does the sending.
Thank You ! !
I hope sometime you guys will have on a Oneness Pentecostal like Dr. David Bernard, Rev. Bobby Killmon, Rev. Steve Waldron etc. I am a Oneness Pentecostal- you would be amazed by how many points of agreement we would have even though we clearly have significant disagreements. I personally attended a Oneness Pentecostal Bible College for a couple years and love your show for the history, theological discussions and stuff on the gifts of the Spirit. I would have disagreements in many areas, but I nerd out over this kind of stuff.
Also, I hate the water analogy- I know people use it, but it fails.
@@joshuapearson9950 i disagree with one pentecostals. To much Presuppositions and Esiegesis. I suggest to read the Bible at its context, not denominational lense. Oneness falls 100% apart when you study John 1 as a Jewish person at that time would.
@@joshuapearson9950 I'm not attacking you, I'm A messianic jew.
I believe its important to study how a person of that time would read it.
1) You're worshipping a different God.
2) You believe "a different gospel" because you say a person is not saved unless s/he speaks in tongues.
Repent before it's too late -- you're not guaranteed tomorrow.
@@regularstan6212 I agree that context is key- that is actually one reason why many so called Trinitarian proof texts fail. Context lends itself to the Oneness position. Also, super cool to get to engage with a Messianic Jew. God’s blessings!
Good here too on youtube
*Here are bible verses showing that the Father and the Holy Spirit are united in Jesus Christ bodily, which means that there is a Biblical Trinity; The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit united 3 as 1:*
*John 14:10-11*
so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
*John 10:30*
30 *I* and *my Father* are *one.*
*2 Corinthians 4:19*
19 *namely, that God was in Christ* reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their transgressions against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
*Matthew 3:16*
16 When *He* had been baptized, *Jesus* came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and *He* saw *the Spirit of God* descending like a dove and alighting *upon Him.*
*Colossians 2:9*
9 For *in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.*
*Colossians 1:19*
19 For it pleased *the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;*
*1 john 5:7*
7 For there are *three* that bear record in heaven, *the Father* , *the Word* , and *the Holy Ghost* : and *these three are one.*
*Matthew 28:19*
19 Go ye *therefore* , and teach all nations, baptizing them *in the name of the Father* , and of *the Son,* and of *the Holy Ghost:*
*1 Peter 1:2*
2 elect *according to* the foreknowledge of *God the Father* , through sanctification of *the Spirit,* unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of *Jesus Christ* : Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
And also other examples found in the book of Genesis where God describes Himself in the *plural* :
*Genesis 1:26*
26 And *God* said, *let us* make man in *our image*
*Genesis 3:22*
22 And *the Lord God said,* Behold, the man is become as *one of us*
*Genesis 18:1-3*
*Yahweh Appears to Abraham*
18 Then *Yahweh appeared to him* by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 And he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, *three men* were standing nearby; he saw, *and he ran from the tent door to meet them,* and *he bowed himself to the earth, 3 and he said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.*
*Isaiah 48:16*
16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, *I was there.*
And now the *Lord God and His Spirit*
*Have sent Me.”*
Jesus cannot be equal to the Father if he submits to the Father as his God. 1 Corinthians 11:3, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28
OH PATRICK
Lol
Yeah, get it together Patrick, Yeah I'll stab you in the face Patrick....
😒..that was a bit harsh...
lol
Whats the 3rd book?
The easiest way for me to understand the Trinity is to see the 1st chapter of John as the quantum physics version of the creation of this Reality. God made is of photons,..light, phonons, sound,...the Word and He created a body to dwell in as a focal point which is how Christ can both be God and the first fruit of Creation. Everything of God within that Body is Christ. Everything outside that Body is the Holy Spirit and Everything total of God is the Father. When Christ came to Earth the Holy Spirit and Christ dwelt within together and the Father remained on the throne so that could only happen if they are also three Personhoods.
So the 4th person in the Trinity is james white
There is not even one foundation for the trinity of three different persons . God always say I AM ... ONE never say I AM three different beings. Yahweh Name is I AM and not WE ARE and this destroy the plurality of the false trinity. Jesus is God in the flesh and there is only one God THE FATHER. John14:8 8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?… (Where is the trinity ???) The trinitarians DESTROY the first and greatest commandment: Deut,6:4 Hear o Israel the LORD our GOD is ONE (not three)
This video explained the trinity but didn't give bible data for the distinct statements. For example, there was no biblical explanation for the definition of "persons" and "people" in relation to God and the differences between the terms biblically. I understand the explanations but there wasn't any reason given to believe them.
Does the Trinitarian doctrine have a definition of “person”? Where does God in heaven and God in flesh differ in personhood? Different spirit, different desires, different minds??…
And if they have different desires with different minds, how then do they have perfect unity? And if they are in perfect unity in spirit and desire, how are they separate?
@Dustin Neely the definition of Trinity places dialectical tension in this statement.
The Lord is One. One spirit, one will, one person. Unity.
The Lord is One. One spirit, one will, three persons.
If God is three persons, where does “their” personhood separate? If they have different desires, how then are they perfectly unified as one God?
@Dustin Neely so the how we define “person” matters.
@Dustin Neely btw I’m asking for a real answer not just antagonizing. Obviously the Bible doesn’t say they are three different and separate persons. And it doesn’t define them as Trinity. So Trinity and the definition of Trinity isn’t in scripture. Trinity is more of a “well it seems like three persons” position. And it depends on how you define persons. Jesus makes a pretty clear case that the immaterial of a man, not the flesh, is what makes him who he truly is. And if that’s true, then the immaterial part of Jesus’ existence is what makes him who he is. We all agree, we know he is “God in the flesh”…. So if Jesus immaterial person is fully unified with the Father, how then are they different people at all? And if Jesus’ immaterial person is NOT fully unified with the Father, how then do we claim perfect eternal unity between them in the Trinity?
So the dialectical tension, and contradiction, is within the Trinitarian’s position.
@Dustin Neely it would take less effort and words to answer my question then to write the paragraph you just sent. Where is the separation of personhood? Spirit, will, or what. Can be a 1 word answer for all I care. I genuinely don’t know where Trinitarians think there is separation. One person told me a different “volition” which essentially means desire or will. Then I asked “so the Father and Son have different wills?” and I can’t get an answer. If they have different wills, meaning they are not in full agreement of desires, that seems like a problem for Tri”unity”. If they have the same desires, that seems like a problem for “Tri”unity.
@Dustin Neely got it. So to boil it down, from your position, what separates Father and Son? If there nature and will are same, what separates their personhood? Just location or
I’m a Protestant but now subscribe to the Eastern Orthodox understanding of the Trinity which is labeled as Monarchical Trinitarianism. The West’s version is Egalitarian Trinitarianism.
According to Scripture, God and Father are synonymous and refer to the same person. God is not three persons because the Father is only one.
God is eternally Father who eternally begets the Son and eternally spirates the Spirit. Their cause is the Father who is the only unbegotten first cause.
You’re not a Protestant
@@DavidReyes-qn1bq hahaha okay, pseudo-Protestant because I’m neither Eastern Orthodox nor Catholic. But if you also want to deny me that I’m fine with simply being labeled a Christian 😉
@@cm6246 I meant no harm. Just clarifying that you’re not a Protestant because of your view of the Trinity.
Pseudo-Protestant is better
@@DavidReyes-qn1bq No harm done. I’m really not big on labels anyway. I’m just trying to adhere to the faith as it was once for all delivered.
@@cm6246 Amen my brother!
This was a great video to fall asleep to. Thanks!
Joking!
Need timestamps! :)
If you really want to break outside of your theological echo chambers on this subject you should talk to some well informed Biblical Unitarians. I could certainly connect you with some if you are interested.
Indeed , I would like to hear them interview , Anthony buzzard or Carlos Xavier from focus on the kingdom
They want to break out of echo chambers, not orthodoxy. But they have often spoken about these issues.
Biblical Unitarian would be a contradictory description.
@@BipolarDistortion lol, truth!
another storehouse of Biblical teaching
..there are absolutely zero biblical foundations for proclaiming God is three people..
Yeah, you’re right, they totally didn’t provide any scripture in their apologetic. Say, wait a minute…
@@BipolarDistortion ..that fact that someone provides scripture does not mean the provided scripture has been rightly divided and applied..
@@cddpmpls35 This is a true statement and happens quite frequently in every Christian tradition. We’re all predisposed to reading Scripture through our own traditions’ lenses. Instead of letting Scripture inform our theology we read it to confirm what we’ve already decided to believe which is what we were taught.
In this particular case, I agree with you about how they used the sacred text to prove their belief that God is one being who exists in three persons.
To borrow a couple quotes Dr. Beau Branson provides in one of his videos available on his website:
God is not the substance but the hypostasis who is Father - John Zizioulas
Yes, the substance or essence is common to the three but it didn’t become ontologically primary until St. Augustine - Christoph Schwobël
It’s even explicitly stated in the Nicene Creed that the one God is Father.
@@cm6246 ..appreciate your passion and I hope all is well with your heart and mind..
..I do believe that Jesus is God.. ..Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.. ..Jesus came as a servant and will return as the king.. ..Jesus came as the lamb and will return as the lion.. ..Jesus came as the son and will return as the father.. ..and scripture declares this from genesis to revelation..
Jesus is my father, I am his son and we are one..
@@BipolarDistortion Satan quoted scripture to Christ, but did he quote those passages in their correct context? No. Trinitarians have been conditioned to read their belief into the texts. That's not the same as proving that the trinity is biblical.
I'd have to know greek.
No you dont need to know Greek
I'm not a Catholic Catholics worship Mary I listen to like three of your shows on the trinity just heard you say that y'all go to the word I've not heard one scripture you just gave two scriptures not one of them said anything about a trinity I believe that Jesus is God the Bible says over and over there's only one God so I stick with the word there is only one God and where does it say if someone doesn't agree with the way you explain it they're not saved they're heretic I've heard you say that several times let's get in the word you've got to back up what you say with the word not no Creed the word
the trinity is not a word coined by the holy wind or the holy spirit . Therefore it has no relevance to what is holy. the bible warns do not go beyond what is written. this teaching is from the same people that gave you the doctrine of discovery consider the source
I have a strong fear that is I am not 100% convinced that Jesus is god. Thank the Jehovah witnesses for that in my raising. Someone's are going to hell for believing wrongly. A he'll they don't believe in.
Begotten: The Father could not send who was not of Himself to give
Based on what I hear from trinity believers, it seems like they lie to themselves and to others by saying they do believe in One God only. And those arguments, terminologies and analogies to explain that God is 1 but actually 3 are silly excuses.
Sorry but that’s what it looks like.
I see the godhead out in the Bible don't see nothing about Trinity and of course if Jesus is God the fullness of the godhead dwells within Jesus our lord and savior and almighty God
And you are scaring people who may not see it the way you do they think they're going to go to hell if they don't believe you cause you calling my heretic and I've heard you say people who believe in one God or heretics there is only one God
The Spirit knows the Father and the Son. This Knowledge is Love. This is Eternal Life and the Kingdom of God.
No; the knowledge is not love. God is love -- not knowledge.
@@IndianaJoe0321
The Spirit knows the essence of the Father and of the Son. This essence is Love. Knowing Love is Eternal Life.
John 17:3
“And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
Galatians 4:9
“But now that you have come to know God, or rather are known by God…”
2 Peter 1:2
“May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.”
Funny, that the Author
spoke about so many other things.
but THIS is what everybody wants to talk about...to the exclusion of EVERYTHING ELSE that He said.
Funny, indeed.
Appreciate brothers in Christ. But why go beyond what scripture says? So much freedom in scripture. Why add a single word like Trinity
When did we say that the word "trinity" is in scripture? Or when did we add the word trinity to the scriptures?
@@TheRemnantRadio There is no biblical obligation to describe or define God with non biblical words and definitions. So if scripture doesn’t say Trinity or define God as “three separate and different persons coequally existing eternally as one God” why should we add that word or definition to who God is?
@@TheRemnantRadio “I do think you need proper Trinitarian view to be saved, full stop”….
So you demand people have a non biblical word and definition to be saved. That is a man made obligation not a God breathed obligation. Respectfully, how is that not adding to scripture?
@Andy Ayala using that same idea, could I deny the ineffability of God simply because the word itself isn’t used in Scripture? What about his omniscience or omnipresence?
@@BipolarDistortion God fills the earth. The highest heavens can’t contain him. He is eternal and created all things and sustains all things. See all things. So I wouldn’t force the word omnipresent but the definition is in scripture. Trinity AND the definition of Trinity isn’t in scripture. We shouldn’t demand anyone define God with non biblical definitions. To do so is to demand they accept the words of men not God breathed.
The Trinity simply explained: Takes over an hour⏳😂
Nah. As defined, the trinity is not biblical. With respect, the theory of the Trinity begins to fall apart and unravel relatively easily with 1 simple question. Which "person" of the trinity is Jesus daddy? The trinitarian doctrine informs us that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not the same but separate distonct members that make up God. Your Bible clearly states that the Holy Ghost impregnated Mary and produced Jesus. Therefore the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus.
Matthew 1 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹⁸ Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
¹⁹ Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
²⁰ But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
²¹ And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Christ always spoke of YHWH as his father. Since we know the above passage is true and cannot be undone, who exactly is the Father (YHWH) the father of? According the theory, they're not same. Sir, you got a theological problem. Jesus can't have 2 daddys. In light of the trinitarian theory, how are you navigating the fact of the "person" of the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary as opposed to the "person" of the Father? Please explain.
You cannot understand nonsense, the Trinity doctrine is just a CONVENTIONAL doctrine. No Trinity exists. The simple reason is that Jesus - the divine Person directly concerned - FOUR GOSPELS LONG states to be ONLY WITH THE FATHER, never with TWO other Persons!!! YOU MUST ACCEPT THE DIRECT TESTIMONY OF JESUS, NO INVENTIONS PLEASE!!!!!!
Thus, of course only TWO BLASPHEMIES are possible: either against the Son or the Father. From the Jesus' speech about those TWO blasphemies, you can learn that the Father is called "Holy Spirit" by Jesus. This means that the FATHER IS A SPIRIT. You get confirmation of that from verses Jn. 4:23,24. To recap, the Father is either called "Holy Father" or "Holy Spirit" according to circumstances. "Holy Spirit" is just a "spirit-name" used to identify that Spirit.
Hello
Jesus is the Messiah
The Son of God
The Son of David
The Son of man
The man God has chosen to be his anointed king
The man God will judge the world through
The man God raised from the dead
Jesus will return and rule the nations with believers in the kingdom of God on the earth
Jesus has a God
There is no triune god in scripture
Jesus said the Father is the only true God!
John 17
3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
-
Acts 3
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.
14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Notice Jesus is NOT the God of Abraham
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.
There is no such thing as the trinity there is no such thing as a triune God, God is one, how dare you say to someone that if they don't believe in the Trinity they do not have the spirit, which means of course you have the spirit or least wise this is what you believe, you say the church has believe this for centuries well then it must be true, people have believe many things for centuries even millenia and it has been false, then answer me this, if the Christ was with God and he is all knowing why then did he say to his disciples when asked the question concerning the end times I do not know, and furthermore, if he is all knowing, how can that which is all knowing come into the world as a mere babe, one who knows nothing until they have learnt it, and there is no gender in the kingdom of god for God is without gender, so how can he produce a son unless it is of the masculine the flesh, you say he's not a created thing yet the flesh is a created thing, and The flesh has a soul and mind,
I’ll give you $10,000 if you give me the name of the holy spirit.
According to Trinitarianism, the following seven statements are true...
1. There is only one true God.
2. The Father is the one true God.
3. The Son is the one true God.
4. The Holy Spirit is the one true God.
5. The Father is not the Son.
6. The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
7. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
Putting these seven statements together...
Starting with (1): There is only one true God.
Restating (5) in light of (2) & (3): The one true God is not the one true God.
Restating (6) in light of (3) & (4): The one true God is not the one true God.
Restating (7) in light of (4) & (2): The one true God is not the one true God.
So according to Trinitarianism, there's only one true God, and that one true God is not the one true God.