Great discussion.. for someone who comes from a Baptist background where these things are treated like the plague. This is really healthy for me as I've grown in this portion of my faith.
I have been a pentecostal for 46 years. I have seen so many abuses of prophecy, and the Words of Knowledge, and Wisdom. I had an old missionary lady who had been in India for 40 years. At a conference she prophesied over me "The Lord sees your heart for the youth of India (I was a Youth Pastor at the time) and He is making a way for you to go, thus says the Lord". She spoke from her aching heart for the youth of India. Her word was news to my wife and I. We did not go to India because we did not have a heart for India. We left it on the back-burner. 28 years later, I am pastoring a church in the Northern Territory and we have significant and substantial relationship with a large network in Andra Pradesh. Does that make her word right? No. Does it make her word wrong? No. Does it matter to me? No. Having the maturity to pray about any word spoken over you or a family member is critical. If a word doesn't confirm something the Lord has already spoken to you about, don't act. Seek the Lord, pray, and seek wise counsel.
Imagine if this dear Lady had said to you something like " I would like to share with you that I have a sense that God may be calling you to Mission work in India." This non- declarative approach ...🤔
I'm in Victoria, Australia, and I'm discouraged by the difference between American spiritual emphasis on politics and Christianity. Here,we are far less fanatical about prophetic knowledge about Trump or Albanesie
Thank you so much for addressing the story of your dad's cochlear implants. My father is an amputee, and once we had these supernatural ministry students come up to us in a fast food place and prophesy that his arm would grow back and he would recieve an inheritance from his father (who passed when he was 15). Thankfully my dad's faith is settled and he wasn't phased when it didn't happen, but for me, that experience has always left a poor taste in my mouth. It was as if they saw him as project that they could tell a cool story about, rather than as a person. Even as a more charismatic-leaning believer, that experience made me very weary of healing ministries. I think the key is recognizing the need for humility, and not mistaking zealousness for genuine faith.
You Guys!! I can’t even tell you *how much* I appreciated this dialogue. As someone who grew up in an Alliance church and then has attended evangelical and Pentecostal churches in adulthood, as well as being a deep-thinking, Bible-reading believer, some of these topics have had me wrestling in my thoughts/spirit for at least the last five years. There are SO many contradictions within the Body of Christ and most of the time people have an “all or nothing” approach to these topics. (If they believe in the gifts then ‘everything goes’ or they are cessationists and believe it’s all heretical.) I have fasted and prayed for clarity regarding some of these issues for YEARS. It is amazing to hear other believers use Scripture to flesh out contextual TRUTH in regards to these important topics and bring balance/order where things are being denied all together or taken to extremes. This was the first video of yours I’ve listened to but I’m definitely subscribing and really can’t thank you enough. May God continue to open your eyes to His truths and bring understanding as you diligently study His Word. God bless!
I’m a very reasonable Charismatic believer. I’ve learned to check all things with Scripture. And I’ve also learned that sensationalism has given us Charismatics a bad name. Nevertheless, God can do anything, anywhere, anytime.
As a former pastor and having known Jesus for fifty years I must say this had been some of the most Biblical based, balanced and thought provoking conversation regarding these topics I’ve heard. Thank you for sharing!
Where have you guys been the last 10 years of my life? I wish I knew these things when I first became a Christian without having to blunder my way through, making so many mistakes, for so many years. God bless you all and thank you for doing this.
Gentleman I tank you for being bold and responsible enough to address this subject. I believe the majority of the problems we have run into is because the Carismata has not been properly taught and we haven't policed our community of faith. We wind up letting haters and unbelievers get the last word on the topic because we won't just be responsible and accountable to the Holy Spirit and each other for the sake of never robbing God of His glory.
1 Corinthians 12:11 indicates that the Spirit distributes the spiritual gifts as He decides.... how do you then teach someone something the Spirit only decides? Where in the Bible is the spiritual gift taught to someone???
Well, young lads, I never thought I'd hear such wise discussion from fellows so young. Anyway, for what it is worth. Remembering when I was an unbeliever, I went to a church where someone spoke in tongues. I was so stunned, I felt God was in the place, but not only that, was sure the walls would certainly fall down. I felt power. I am not sure to this day if there even was an interpretation. I said later to the person who invited me , "all of the people in that church have little lights in theirs eyes". Well, some later, some years, I looked in the mirror and saw that I, too, had little lights in my eyes. So glad to be saved and baptized with the Holy Spirit. Abhor the charismatic crazies who have run amok and have tarnished the great treasure.
When I first heard people speaking in tongue in a charismatic church, I was embarrassed. It was so not in order plus the proclaiming about loving God loudly and the 'breaking through' notion. Those are things I always find hard to accept so I was always termed as no breaking thru and people were fed up with my 'sickly' condition. It was like I did not experience 'victory' at all. It was a frustrating condition for me and also those dealing with me but they never tried to talk to me and find out why. People preferred to judge and accuse.
@@kimjasmine7767 So sorry for that experience. Yes, although I would classify myself as charismatic, I don't attend any such church of that stripe as they have run amok with their Kingdom Now and Dominion theologies. There is a callousness to those who are sick, and I can almost tell from the Spirit which Bible School they attended, Rhema graduates are particularly calloused. I am not familiar with the "break through" phrase. But just to know we are full bore into the apostasy. Stay close to the Bible, stay close to Hope in Jesus. Blessings.
I’ve never been willing to stuff my precious Christian faith into such terrible, shortsighted terms as Charismatic or Pentecostal etc. Why define yourself into such small boxes? I’m a follower of Christ. Period.
I was looking for online ministries with such a balanced perspective for quite some time. 😊🔥👌🏼 My mind is theologically sharpened + I have a new hunger for more of God's work & glory in and around me. Keep up the good work. 👏🏼
Thank you for your service guys. I grew up in a Methodist church in Germany and my parents are from Ghana. The Charismatic Movement is probably for every African Child who was born in a Christian family totally "normal" by the grace of god i now can say that I find myself really save in the reformed community. But you guys really gave me hope and opened my mind towards the Charismatic Movement. In my eyes and the way I was introduced into the Charismatic Movement was not even comparable to how you define it.
This is really needed now these days. SOLID teaching, and thoughts guys! PRAISE JESUS for wisdom and understanding. I am currently a believer. i don't add myself to this group or that group in my beliefs( its bible only). Its a conscience thing for me. I came from charismatic where a lot of bethel type teachings were rampant with little order in some cases, or just tom foolery. I starting leaning to "cecassionist" but realized its not scripturally correct either. ALL I care about is the scriptures and properly reading, living and helping others do the same. I don't care about my opinion or bias, i just want to see the word AS JESUS wants me to read it. This is appreciative for your program, It is helping me lots in my walk. THANKS!!!!!! Love to see the humility of talking with those you may not agree with.
Excellent! I would add that practices vary even within denominations. I received my BA in Biblical Studies from an AG college (formerly Southern California College, now Vanguard University), and what was taught there was more along the lines of what is endorsed in this video. Over the years, as I have moved around the country, I've pretty much stayed in either AG or Calvary Chapel churches. Some of the AG churches were a culture shock to me given the lack of good teaching abuse and misuse of the gifts. Some of the Calvary Chapels may as well have been cesationist Baptists. It all depends on the leadership and what the congregation is willing to endorse.
Thank you my brothers for your discussion as regardless if we agree with each other or not; it is important, good and beneficial to engage in a dialogue, and in doing so, sharpening each other in the Lord to encourage spiritual growth and transformation to become more Christ like. For Jesus Christ is more interested in our charactere than our wellbeing. "Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another. Proverbs 27:17 ESV" How ever lets remember to also keep it simple and trusting God only through His Word, His son Jesus Christ, guided in Spirit and in Truth by the Holy Spirit; walking in obedience and surrender to His Will for His purpose and Glory alone! Shalom, Your sister For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16 ESV
I grew up in a free Holiness Pentecostal church and was always taught that tongues was the initial sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Over the past three or four years I have been wrestling with this doctrine as well as many others, and this dialogue as well as the one on “second blessing” have really helped me solidify my belief in that the baptism happens at salvation and that tongues is a gift of the Spirit. I really appreciate the dialogue and conversations you guys have. Keep up the good work, there are many starving deep thinking charismatics out here.
Love all the content you guys are putting out. Also I'm a big fan of Mr. Miller. I met him a church conference in Aspen a couple of years ago and learned so much about prophecy and healing. Twas a beautiful time with the Lord. Also if I ever get to leave the armpit that is Houston, I've got my eyes set on Denver and 2nd stop would be Michaels Church. First stop is obviously the denver biscuit. company.
"Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Acts 17:11 ESV" "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1 ESV"
sadly there are no authentic prophets or with prophetic gift today.... all of them missed Covid 19.... no one categorically heard from God that this is coming up... none... God did not speak to... reason... i think He wants us to rely study and dwell in His Word.... knowing His perfect will and what to do when certain circumstances arrive.... this is what and this is why we should be studying scriptures diligently prayerfully and obeying it to tune into inspired Word of God.... instead of waiting for a prophet which sadly we do not have so far...
I know I am commenting a lot, but I would draw a distinction between praying in the spirit and the gift of tongues that requires interpretation. If it is an evangelistic service, I would see a difference. If sinners are coming to a believers meeting, whoever invited them should let them know what is happening. It prophecy what times and interpretation come forth in our church, and unbelievers are present, I will simply explain it to them. I will say something like, “what you just saw or heard is prophecy or tones with interpretation. You’ll find us in one Corinthians 12. “Something like that. If people simply explain what is happening then they will understand even if they do not agree. In act 10 the people at Cornelius‘s house received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. Peter did not tell them they were out of order. Call in one Corinthians 14 is simply emphasizing that we should pay attention to ever find the body and not only ourselves. Sorry for the typos Siri made through my dictation. LOL
Thank you for this discussion. As to those who hold position that praying in the Spirit equals to praying in tongues, I would like to share my perspective when I read scripture. Specifically Ephesians 6:18, NIV: "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord's people." Most times I hear the first part of Eph 6:18 being quoted which is to pray in the Spirit at all times but not the second part where it says to pray with all kinds of prayers and requests....alert...praying for all the Lord’s people. This sounds like a call to pray for very specific things. I heard that when praying in the Spirit you don’t really know or understand what you are praying because the Spirit takes over, (trusting that the Holy Spirit is interceding according to God’s perfect will), but if using this specific verse as a reference it kind of defines or supports what it means to pray in the Spirit...does it not? 😕. Like if in Praying in the Spirit is when the Spirit prays and not our own selves, then how can we specifically pray for God’s people intentionally or present any specific requests or specific prayers for God’s people if we don’t know what we are praying for? 😕. This does not mean at all that I do not believe in praying in tongues.....just that the use of the first part of this verse makes me question how it’s commonly applied. Maybe my thoughts on it doesn’t make sense 🤷🏻♀️
I think I understand you. I'm a big believer that it is not the language that we pray in that determines whether we are praying "in Spirit" nor that determines the power and efficacy of our prayers but rather it is the humility in our hearts when we pray. "God hears the prayers of the proud from afar but is near to those who are contrite." I've done my best to understand what tongues is and what it isn't and I've concluded it is a means to allow those of us who lack words the ability to pray because prayer is important.
I must confess that at first I was somewhat leary about the guys, as if self-chosen representatives of God's "Remnant" in the Western Church (Still, always thankful for your continuationist stance). At the same time I've always been the sort of person to give credit where due: that said, I must concede that you guys are doing a GREAT 👍 job. (Increasingly I'm sitting through entire programs 🙃). Keep going, Bros.
Awesome. I'm at a church that is MOSTLY "balanced," but the majority of the congregation and the pastor (not sure about one of the 4 elders) are of the "tongues is for all" persuasion. The first time I attended a "life group" meeting, when I asked for prayer for my marriage (I was separated at the time - now divorced), someone asked me if I had been baptized in the Spirit and whether I spoke in tongues. Amazingly, I still attend that life group, despite the fact that most members of the group think that praying in tongues has the "special power" you were talking about. Often (usually) during our prayer time, as we pray for each others' specific needs, some will pray in tongues, not usually at normal speech volume, but like background prayer behind the person who happens to be praying in English at the time. I've learned to deal with it, even though it still annoys me some. Occasionally in church, the pastor is led by the Spirit to have us break into small groups and pray for needs within the group. On these occasions, there will often be people "whispering" prayers in tongues. This church is the most "real" church I've ever been a part of. The teaching is sound and the people are, for the most part, wonderful. The only issue is that my push back on the tongues thing is not given any serious consideration, even though I support it with scripture.
Gosh, this is such an important conversation! My only suggestion would be to possibly define terms. I think, for instance, the word "prophecy" means different things to different people. Defining what the Bible means by prophesy, tongues, and healing would add to understanding. I'm always concerned about healing in particular, because that's the world I operate in as a mental health professional. What does "healing" look like, and on whose timeline? What feels like it "should" be straightforward simply is not straightforward at all in practice. I am constantly seeking in prayer and education to figure out how this all is supposed to look....Thank you for another really great topic!
Yes the Apostolic gifts ceased around 70 AD 90 the cannon was complete .we do not have any documented super natural gifts that have occured since ..which means there are no more prophet or faith healing .. the speaking in tongues is pretentious adjulation of a misinterpreted word tongue it's mean foreign language not some Narcisstic made up gibberish.. or could be a Kundalini being manifested
Every charismatic church I’ve attended… at some point, I’ve had people walk up to me and say something like “The Lord gave me a word for you… allow access” or “The Spirit is telling me to tell you, let nothing come between you and you wife”. These are very generic statements that are basically just unverifiable untestable statements. How can I biblically “test the Spirit” with these vague statements?
@@TheRemnantRadio I relate to Josh as I also grew up in charismatic circle and have experienced damaging practices that I never really could find taught in scripture. I am graduating Bible college this year and have to admit I'm struggling even with my own denominations requirements for credentials. I am currently part of the Pentecostal assemblies of Canada (PAOC) and snuggle with their statements of faith that seem to contradict each other. If you are ever interested in doing a talk on this I would be glad to.
Wow!!! I’m so glad, Michael Rountree, for what you said about praying for healing that sometimes God will let us know that we are healed or he will say as you said, “my grace is sufficient.” That is exactly what he told me when I was begging him to be healed of thyroid nodules and that possibility that one of them is cancerous. I’m serious. God interrupted my begging with those exact words as a thought in my head. He literally spoke over my words. It does give you peace about it. I was able to put it on the back burner and am now dealing with a possible cardiac problem, which I’m praying for healing as well, obviously. He gave me a verse for this too. “Be strong and of good courage, do not fear, nor be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you. He goes with you.” …”He will not leave you nor forsake you.” Deuteronomy.
I hope The Remnant Radio get to interview R.T. Kendall. He has a lot to say in this subject. And by the way, he was an apprentice of Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones.
Great discussion, not just because it is close to what I would agree with, but very balanced or open to further growth in your own positions. thanks guys
Mustering up faith, but about believing God‘s word with the heart, for faith is of the heart not the head. Also, you can have faith for one thing but not necessarily another. This has been my experience as well. But let us not think that faith is merely mind over matter. It is not. It is trusting that God will do what he said he would do and also trusting him as our father. I love this episode. Great discussion. I just think some people who believe in healing or afraid to come all the way with it because of certain consequences that they fear. I get that, but all we have to do is simply to embrace what the word teaches and leave the rest with the Lord. Let’s keep contending and if we are not receiving, simply keep contending and not blame God but get back in the Word. If someone does not receive who knows the Lord, the worst case scenario is that they go to heaven. That’s not a bad thing. But let’s content for God’s best.
I appreciate these conversations but I do struggle with the prophetic gifting ever since I came out of the NAR movement. I have a distaste for it. I know it's due to the spiritual abuse I experienced over the last 15 yrs . I am believing God for healing and for a healthy view of the prophetic gifting.
I am from Ukraine and during last 30 years see both missusage and wonderful move of the Holy Spirit! I know it creates pain and prejudices, I think we should go after what the Bible says, not for the false ones, despite all Lord want to be glorified!
Loved hearing you guys talk about deliverance from demons! I’ve recently gotten involved in this ministry. One Scripture I want to point out is when Paul was casting out a demon in acts 16:18 it says the demon came out within the same hour... meaning it took longer than just one instance of saying “come out”. It came out within the hour. Deliverance sometimes takes time and sometimes hours!
I was raised Baptist and had a very real born again experience when I was 8 yrs old. At that young age I kind of just knew that there was more to God than what I'd been taught. I ended up in an Assembly of God church and experienced so many miracles that I was a personal witness to. My son grew up in that church and in the Providence from God realized the same thing I did - that there was more to God than what he'd been taught. He became a Calvinist and is now in at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. I have also come to believe in Calvinism. When he and I talked about it, is was like I'd really known all along but couldn't deal with it. But now, as I've heard Sam Storms say, I feel like I'm in the middle of divorced parents and I don't know where to go for Christmas. I live an hour south of Houston. Could you possibly point out to me any churches you know of close to me? Also it's so awesome to see what God is doing to unify us into one body! It's so exciting to think we could have actual unity in the Body of Christ and what will come from it!
This was great!! When I go to pray for people to be healed, I always go into it believing it IS His will so that I can pray in faith. I’ve seen people get healed after praying for a third time. Sometimes we give up too quickly before the healing comes. I’ve also heard that healing is not dependent on the person receiving healings’ faith but on the faith of the person praying for their healing. What are y’all’s thoughts on this?
I certainly believe in the suffering of the believer, I just do not believe that the Lord intended that to be sickness. I believe God teaches us through his Word. I believe sickness directly or indirectly comes from the enemy well healing comes from God. But I like the point that one of them made because people tried to say that Paul’s thorn in the flesh with sickness. If you have the revelation Paul head, we’ll talk about it. LOL I know people have had discussions for centuries on Paul’s thorn, but to me it is clear in the text that it came from Seton and it was a messenger of Satan to buffet him. If we read in the previous chapters he talked about all the persecution he was under, so that makes sense to me. I am dictating this post as one who was born without vision. I have never had usable vision, but I still believe healing is gods will and continue to minister healing and continue to contend for the kingdom. My experience is not the barometer of truth. Hi along with other believers still struggle with issues of the flesh at times even though it is gods will for me to live free from it. I just get back up again by the grace of God with repentance and faith. In the same way, when I need physical healing for my body I believe God for it as a provision given to me. I do not beat myself up because I do not get an instant manifestation, but I continue to believe the word of God and contend for what I do not see then my faith becomes site. The same is true concerning victory over sin. So in one sense yes all believers will all behold when Christ comes at the consummation of the ages, but let us not use that do not contend for what is God’s will for us which I believe is established in the Scriptures of Isaiah 53, Matthew eight, acts 1038, etc. Just my thoughts on it. I will not blame God for what I do not see, but continue to press on in faith so that what is unseen will become seen. The same goes for sin, sickness, poverty, fear and everything that comes with the enemy. God is a good God and we do not need to re-define good to mean anything other than good. I realize this is anthropomorphic, but good natural parents would not abuse their children with sickness. What makes anyone think that God would? To me it is a ridiculous theology and a cop out because of what we do not see. And keep in mind… This is coming from a blind individual so no one can say that I do not know what I’m talking about.
I’ve heard of people getting healed after they stopped trying so hard to be healed. They were trying so hard to be healed instead of just resting and trusting the Lord for healing. And then they suddenly got healed!
When I read a lot of the comments, i often feel like giving the following bulletin so I guess I will lol: For quite a while now the Systematic Theology text used at the Baptist Southern Seminary has been Wayne Grudem’s, who is far from a cessationist. So it really shouldn’t come as a surprise that many of us Baptist’s aren’t cessationists. Also, even though we may not emphasize or practice prophecy like many charismatics do, we also want to be sensitive to the Spirit and be used by the Lord to minister to others in whatever way He’d use us, well outside of our comfort zone. We also pray for the sick to be healed and wouldn’t do so if we didn’t believe in it. Anyhow, GREAT DISCUSSION!
I am in the middle on this subject which a lot of people may think I am coward. I truly believe that God moves in the way that it’s laid out in the bible but my life is not based on seeing miracles. I truly believe that if you call yourself a prophet and you say this is a word from God that it has to come true and part of me feels there isn’t enough follow up on this. I believe we should pray for the sick and I believe that God can heal. I have said this a few times everyone now keeps saying I heard God speak to me and God said. To the point that of what you think God said is more important than if it lines up with scripture and if it fits with Gods character. It seems today and excuse me Lord that God somehow is a chatter box talking 24 hours a day yet the body of Christ is in more confusion than ever before.
I dont disagree with you. We are looking to produce more theological content on the gift of prophecy in the coming months. Hopefully we can address this.
Amen, love trumps all gifts. And what is greatest demonstration of love? Jesus Christ. We should definitely point it to Him. So happy to have found this channel. I'm in a southern baptist church that talks about cessationism. I wonder why some people picked some gifts to continue and some gifts to cease ( that it the gift of prophesying was left to the apostles). We believe it is because there's no "new news" as you guys mentioned and that the Bible is already clear in what is to be prophesied. When someone speaks in tongues and is interpreted, how do we confirm it? If it follows scripture. Therefore, scripture is the source of all verification. However, I stand between both sides. I still have much to learn which has ceased and which continues. Sometimes I just leave it all to God and instead of asking Him to speak in tongues/interpretation, etc., I ask Him to humble my heart and demonstrate love instead. This was a great discussion uniting both sides (though I felt there were a few misunderstandings about cessationism) and it was encouraging to me. Thank you guys!
The big picture about this discussion could be, how does the Grave of Forgiveness come into all that was spoken here? Meaning, much offense could come from misuse and abuse of the misapplication of the Gifts of the Spirit. Forgive 70 x 7.
Yeah I remember hearing that excursion called people out in the crowd period one for working on Sunday. There’s no restricting said that you can’t call someone out in a crowd. But when someone is called out they should be able to confirm what the preacher is saying is true or not either through the word or talking to other elders about the situation
I've heard it being shared before that "the devil doesn't understand tongues" and after y'all brought it up in 47:28, I began to think about it. If tongues is a heavenly language, then how can it be that Satan doesn't know it? After all, he WAS pretty much one of the highest ranking angels before he fell 😂
Modern Tongues is a Pretentious Narcisstic display of emotionalism that counterfiets biblical gift of Languages. Tongues is foreign language do all dialect hear the gospel in the foundation of the church.. not some made up gibberish that is evidense of being baptised in the spirit. Fleshly manifestations of this spirit is not Holy or biblical . It's pure Knosticism
@@sosassteelstrings9623 If you discern act properly .. you will find out that " tongues" is foreign language is to preach the gospel to different dialects not for uttering estatic Gibberish to confirm baptist ism of the Holy Spirit. sTorslbunnilcal use of tongue .. we don't need or have modern gift of tongues Prophesy or Healings ..Instead God gave us innerant God's word in scripture
Speaking in tongues is a gift given to believers through the Holy Spirit to be used in private between you and God. Purpose is that the Holy Spirit in a holy language intercedes for use when our words can’t cover the cries of our heart when in prayer. Also because we are human and don’t know how to pray properly, the Holy Spirit then will speak on our behalf.
I went to a Oneness Pentecostal church where they believe speaking in tongues is THE initial evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. I had never heard this teaching before, but it definitely has made me question my salvation. So many people from different denominations have different beliefs about salvation, I've felt so overwhelmed with all the confusion. I've honestly just felt defeated. How do we know who's got it right? How do we know we're doing this right?
As someone turning from the sins of mormonism and seeing the sins of abuse and misuse of the gifts of the Spirit. It is helpful to remember that much of what the mormoms(lds) perform is in ignorance and thus their sin is in the misuse fo the gifts. This opened up forgiveness when I let go of the anger that all these people were being purposefully and intentionally abusive.
When it comes to sickness and you were believing for healing, I do not believe the Lord is going to say my grace is sufficient, or in other words, I’m not going to heal you, when he has demonstrated his will and his word. So I have to push back on that a little bit. When we do not know, we simply should say we do not know but do not blame it on God.
I think of it like how its spoken of in Daniel. God can do it but he might not, thats his prerogative. 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”
Promises. If this is true, and it is, we would have to have all that they had under the old covenant plus in terms of provision. So if healing is not provided in the new covenant, it would not be better. Everything is updated. All provisions were looking to the cross, now we look back to the cross. Why is it that we all can’t believe God to save us, but we have difficulty with believing God to manifest healing for us? Romans 8:32 shows us that God did not spare his son but delivered him up for us all. How shall he not with him freely give us all things? Healing is less than justification. I realize we do not always see what we should, this is why we go back to the word and continue to meditate on it because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. A lot of this maybe maybe not stuff is not reduced from Scripture, but the fallacy of making our experiences the barometer of truth. Let’s believe the word and let our experiences come up to where they should be.@@grandmasterlucien I think of it that is provided in redemption. Whether or not you believe healing is provided in redemption would definitely reflect your view on it. You do not see in the word with Jesus turn people away who came to him and faith for healing. You simply do not see it. He revealed himself as healer in the old covenant. Hebrews 8:6 tells us that we have a better covenant established upon better promise
These kinds of practices are not Charismatic, but anti-Charismatic, that is, they deny the "charism," gift of the Holy Spirit. The problem with Pentecost is that it is a leavened feast (Leviticus 23:17). As Joel's prophecy declares, and as Peter reiterated it Acts 2, the Spirit descends, literally "poured out" upon "all flesh." Mystery.
really appreciate these guys; I've learned a lot from them (cut back on the millenial "like...like" language it's distracting and somehow dumbs down the show.)
I follow Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit to teach me all things. Dont understand why there are so many labels put on different types of believers. As charismatic, evangelical, Catholicism ect... Jesus is all in all! He is King! God Bless Yall and love you! Sharing my thoughts.
I understand the errors and exaggerations in the Charismatic church with healing, but it is always healthy, able bodied men/women with a public ministry talking about healing in the Charismatic church. If you talked to sick people in the Charismatic church, you'd see how messed up they are by the theologies. Some would pretend they were not sick. Some would say they are already healed. Some would say they are looking for revelation and 'there is something they aren't seeing' which is causing them to remain ill. As if they are gnostics, looking for knowledge. It is an absolute mess.
Wow. Thankyou for saying this. I’m glad to see people care. It really blessed me to read. I’m yet to be healed or umm I haven’t seen it manifest yet in the physical. Notice my wording? I can’t say I am disabled so Yeahh.. I’m glad people notice what’s going on. God bless you
@@justmorenoise @Connie Hi Connie. I pray that you will find peace and freedom from these teachings. You absolutely can say you are disabled. God knows that you are sick and you don't have to hide it from him. He isn't up in heaven waiting for you to say you are healed in a perfect tone or waiting for you to magically check off some list that is too vague to ever be accomplished. Watching your words doesn't trick God into healing you nor does it align something in the universe. I am chronically ill too and came to the Charismatic church in 2012 looking for healing, wholeness and whatever else was available. All I found was men trying to build ministries and names for themselves, bad teachings and a lot of misguided human advice disguised as words from God. I had to get away from it all but I still believe in the gifts today. Yet I stopped listening to every healing minister and teaching and just got alone with God on my own. I am still disabled with POTS and keep seeking God for healing in my body, but I am no longer a slave to these terrible healing doctrines. They will put you into a panicked frenzy that you didn't say a prayer correctly or accidentally claimed your illness. It is all nonsense. All we can do is trust in the Lord and continue to walk each day with Him whether that is sick or healed. There is no magic teaching or magic word or magic man that will heal us all. Take care and God bless you!
Love this! I’m in Dallas which based on a comment I heard and you guys relationship with Michael I assume that is where you guys are from. I am currently looking for a church that lines up with this would love to know if you guys know anywhere that’s open 😂. I use to attend Upper Room for a few years and know Michael Miller use to teach and pastor there not sure if that is where the Lord wants me so wondering if you guys know anywhere else maybe that I could pray about attending. :)
I believe it’s always Gods will to heal. It’s our job to stand on that promise whether we see it come to pass here or in Heaven. It would me immature to say something like “I didn’t receive healing so it must not be Gods will”. That’s a temporary perspective of healing rather than an eternal perspective. You may not have received your healing in your earthly body, but I know for a fact when you enter Heaven the sickness will no longer dwell in you. Biblical faith is hard but those who see the most healing are those who refuse to believe in anything but healing. Abraham declared and believed he would be the father of many nations. Did he see it in his lifetime? No. Does that mean it wasn’t Gods will? Absolutely not! Have faith in healing regardless if you see it come to pass now or not. Hebrews 11 is great on learning about the heroes of faith.
It sounds like we need the word of God to set it right. Any prophedic word is to move people to move from blory to glory, it takes that person to pray and get the mind of the word given. mix it with faith not what other say. `There is four types of prophecy, very little from prophet.
The historic church taught that as a result of the fall Adams Nous was darkened and man lost direct fellowship with God. The spiritual faculty that gave Adam knowledge of God was darkened. As a result man now has a Nomic will. A Nomic will now means that man is filled with his own opinion. A nomic will vasilates and is uncertain when making decisions between right and wrong. Because the will is under the effects of the fall, the church fathers taught that we have to empty ourselves of our own opinions. We have to gain the mindset of the church. This was referred to as Phronema which means attaining the mind of the church. No Protestant or Pentecostal has this kind of theology or teaching. Phronema assumes that the Christian faith has already been given. The authority of the historic church was established hundreds of year's before there was a functional standardized canon of scripture. Timothy said the "church is the pillar and foundation of the truth" not the scripture. The scripture has authority because the church that gave the scripture had authority. Assuming the Bible has authority automatically assumes the authority of the church that gave birth to a canon. The historic doctrine of Pentecost teaches that inspiration is not just relegated to the Bible alone. The full meaning of inspiation is that both scripture and it's meaning are given to the historic church. That is why no scripture is subject to private interpretation. The Bible is not given to the individual and is not subject to fallen nomic opinion. That is why your opinion does not carry weight. Pentecostalism is not based on anything historical. Every Protestant ends up becoming their own Pope assuming the Bible is subject to each individual. Sola Scriptura is really Sola Mio, me alone. I spent 25 years of my life in Pentecostalism. My father was an Assemblies of God pastor for over 30 years. Pentecostalism is a heresy factory. Because it denies the true meaning of Pentecost. All Protestants have a wrong spiritual understanding of the scripture. Because they read the Bible on the assumptions of Enlightenment philosophy. Watch Jay Dyers video "Protestantism and Evangelicalism Refuted" on RUclips.
@355 Divine Yes, Jay Dyer is very gifted in explaining the flow of church history and where the splits and deviations occur in the West. If you watch Jay's videos you will discover other former Protestants who converted to Orthodoxy who are putting up great material on their own RUclips Channels. People with a Protestant background who come out of that spiritual darkness have already had a strong emphasis on apologetics. So many of these people are using their gifts to evangelize heretics. I agree with your statement that Protestantism is retarded. The church fathers often called heretics stupid. Because heresy is stupid. I am glad that Protestants love the Bible. Now we need to show them that they have the wrong starting points in their understanding. By the way, check out Jay's web page. He has great articles on many different subjects. jaysanalysis.com
You would be better off being an atheist than a Protestant. Where do you think all the atheist came from? They came from Protestant and Catholic churches.
I want to send this to my pastor…speaking of, can you do a video about influence of members in the body of the church, so how would one who isn’t on staff, isn’t a leader or anyone with big influence..how do we go about challenging theology or doctrine issues within the church? For instance, praying in tongues in a general assembly every Sunday/Wednesday service, and recently more praying in the spirit from the pulpit.
Hi. You mention at the very beginning of this video, 2 other videos. One about Church of Christ & the other Essential doctrines. Would you please post links to them? Ty Also I good example of false doctrine is where JWs see themselves as the 'the master, faithful & discreet slave & they are to feed the household' which is taken completely out of context. Sorry, don't know the exact verse.
This is some really good stuff here guys. What a dialogue.
Hey Steven! You're one of my favorite testimonies! God's blessings
Great discussion.. for someone who comes from a Baptist background where these things are treated like the plague. This is really healthy for me as I've grown in this portion of my faith.
Agreed
I agree
I was raised Nazarene
I was raised southern Baptist so I'm interested in this video! Just started watching 😁
I have been a pentecostal for 46 years. I have seen so many abuses of prophecy, and the Words of Knowledge, and Wisdom.
I had an old missionary lady who had been in India for 40 years. At a conference she prophesied over me "The Lord sees your heart for the youth of India (I was a Youth Pastor at the time) and He is making a way for you to go, thus says the Lord".
She spoke from her aching heart for the youth of India. Her word was news to my wife and I. We did not go to India because we did not have a heart for India. We left it on the back-burner. 28 years later, I am pastoring a church in the Northern Territory and we have significant and substantial relationship with a large network in Andra Pradesh. Does that make her word right? No. Does it make her word wrong? No. Does it matter to me? No. Having the maturity to pray about any word spoken over you or a family member is critical. If a word doesn't confirm something the Lord has already spoken to you about, don't act. Seek the Lord, pray, and seek wise counsel.
Imagine if this dear Lady had said to you something like " I would like to share with you that I have a sense that God may be calling you to Mission work in India."
This non- declarative approach ...🤔
I'm in Victoria, Australia, and I'm discouraged by the difference between American spiritual emphasis on politics and Christianity. Here,we are far less fanatical about prophetic knowledge about Trump or Albanesie
@@phillipsugwas Correct. There are many ways she could have expressed her heart without a "God said..."
Thank you so much for addressing the story of your dad's cochlear implants. My father is an amputee, and once we had these supernatural ministry students come up to us in a fast food place and prophesy that his arm would grow back and he would recieve an inheritance from his father (who passed when he was 15). Thankfully my dad's faith is settled and he wasn't phased when it didn't happen, but for me, that experience has always left a poor taste in my mouth. It was as if they saw him as project that they could tell a cool story about, rather than as a person. Even as a more charismatic-leaning believer, that experience made me very weary of healing ministries. I think the key is recognizing the need for humility, and not mistaking zealousness for genuine faith.
Sarah Ritson: I’m so sorry this happened to you. There is a lot of pain and often second class citizenship for those who are disabled.
I keep hearing heartbreaking stories like this concerning people practicing faith healing or ministry schools. Thankyou for sharing it.
You Guys!! I can’t even tell you *how much* I appreciated this dialogue. As someone who grew up in an Alliance church and then has attended evangelical and Pentecostal churches in adulthood, as well as being a deep-thinking, Bible-reading believer, some of these topics have had me wrestling in my thoughts/spirit for at least the last five years. There are SO many contradictions within the Body of Christ and most of the time people have an “all or nothing” approach to these topics. (If they believe in the gifts then ‘everything goes’ or they are cessationists and believe it’s all heretical.) I have fasted and prayed for clarity regarding some of these issues for YEARS. It is amazing to hear other believers use Scripture to flesh out contextual TRUTH in regards to these important topics and bring balance/order where things are being denied all together or taken to extremes. This was the first video of yours I’ve listened to but I’m definitely subscribing and really can’t thank you enough. May God continue to open your eyes to His truths and bring understanding as you diligently study His Word. God bless!
Susan DeSantell: thank you Susan.
I’m a very reasonable Charismatic believer. I’ve learned to check all things with Scripture. And I’ve also learned that sensationalism has given us Charismatics a bad name. Nevertheless, God can do anything, anywhere, anytime.
As a former pastor and having known Jesus for fifty years I must say this had been some of the most Biblical based, balanced and thought provoking conversation regarding these topics I’ve heard. Thank you for sharing!
Where have you guys been the last 10 years of my life? I wish I knew these things when I first became a Christian without having to blunder my way through, making so many mistakes, for so many years.
God bless you all and thank you for doing this.
Gentleman I tank you for being bold and responsible enough to address this subject. I believe the majority of the problems we have run into is because the Carismata has not been properly taught and we haven't policed our community of faith. We wind up letting haters and unbelievers get the last word on the topic because we won't just be responsible and accountable to the Holy Spirit and each other for the sake of never robbing God of His glory.
1 Corinthians 12:11 indicates that the Spirit distributes the spiritual gifts as He decides.... how do you then teach someone something the Spirit only decides? Where in the Bible is the spiritual gift taught to someone???
Well, young lads, I never thought I'd hear such wise discussion from fellows so young. Anyway, for what it is worth. Remembering when I was an unbeliever, I went to a church where someone spoke in tongues. I was so stunned, I felt God was in the place, but not only that, was sure the walls would certainly fall down. I felt power. I am not sure to this day if there even was an interpretation. I said later to the person who invited me , "all of the people in that church have little lights in theirs eyes". Well, some later, some years, I looked in the mirror and saw that I, too, had little lights in my eyes. So glad to be saved and baptized with the Holy Spirit. Abhor the charismatic crazies who have run amok and have tarnished the great treasure.
When I first heard people speaking in tongue in a charismatic church, I was embarrassed. It was so not in order plus the proclaiming about loving God loudly and the 'breaking through' notion. Those are things I always find hard to accept so I was always termed as no breaking thru and people were fed up with my 'sickly' condition. It was like I did not experience 'victory' at all. It was a frustrating condition for me and also those dealing with me but they never tried to talk to me and find out why. People preferred to judge and accuse.
@@kimjasmine7767 So sorry for that experience. Yes, although I would classify myself as charismatic, I don't attend any such church of that stripe as they have run amok with their Kingdom Now and Dominion theologies. There is a callousness to those who are sick, and I can almost tell from the Spirit which Bible School they attended, Rhema graduates are particularly calloused. I am not familiar with the "break through" phrase. But just to know we are full bore into the apostasy. Stay close to the Bible, stay close to Hope in Jesus. Blessings.
I’ve never been willing to stuff my precious Christian faith into such terrible, shortsighted terms as Charismatic or Pentecostal etc. Why define yourself into such small boxes? I’m a follower of Christ. Period.
I was looking for online ministries with such a balanced perspective for quite some time. 😊🔥👌🏼 My mind is theologically sharpened + I have a new hunger for more of God's work & glory in and around me. Keep up the good work. 👏🏼
One of the most interesting, informative and relevant discussions. Keep up the amazing work guys.
Thank you for your service guys. I grew up in a Methodist church in Germany and my parents are from Ghana. The Charismatic Movement is probably for every African Child who was born in a Christian family totally "normal" by the grace of god i now can say that I find myself really save in the reformed community. But you guys really gave me hope and opened my mind towards the Charismatic Movement. In my eyes and the way I was introduced into the Charismatic Movement was not even comparable to how you define it.
This is really needed now these days. SOLID teaching, and thoughts guys! PRAISE JESUS for wisdom and understanding. I am currently a believer. i don't add myself to this group or that group in my beliefs( its bible only). Its a conscience thing for me. I came from charismatic where a lot of bethel type teachings were rampant with little order in some cases, or just tom foolery. I starting leaning to "cecassionist" but realized its not scripturally correct either. ALL I care about is the scriptures and properly reading, living and helping others do the same. I don't care about my opinion or bias, i just want to see the word AS JESUS wants me to read it. This is appreciative for your program, It is helping me lots in my walk. THANKS!!!!!! Love to see the humility of talking with those you may not agree with.
Excellent! I would add that practices vary even within denominations. I received my BA in Biblical Studies from an AG college (formerly Southern California College, now Vanguard University), and what was taught there was more along the lines of what is endorsed in this video. Over the years, as I have moved around the country, I've pretty much stayed in either AG or Calvary Chapel churches. Some of the AG churches were a culture shock to me given the lack of good teaching abuse and misuse of the gifts. Some of the Calvary Chapels may as well have been cesationist Baptists. It all depends on the leadership and what the congregation is willing to endorse.
Thank you my brothers for your discussion as regardless if we agree with each other or not; it is important, good and beneficial to engage in a dialogue, and in doing so, sharpening each other in the Lord to encourage spiritual growth and transformation to become more Christ like.
For Jesus Christ is more interested in our charactere than our wellbeing.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another.
Proverbs 27:17 ESV"
How ever lets remember to also
keep it simple and trusting God only through His Word, His son Jesus Christ, guided in Spirit and in Truth by the Holy Spirit; walking in obedience and surrender to His Will for His purpose and Glory alone!
Shalom,
Your sister
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:16 ESV
I grew up in a free Holiness Pentecostal church and was always taught that tongues was the initial sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Over the past three or four years I have been wrestling with this doctrine as well as many others, and this dialogue as well as the one on “second blessing” have really helped me solidify my belief in that the baptism happens at salvation and that tongues is a gift of the Spirit. I really appreciate the dialogue and conversations you guys have. Keep up the good work, there are many starving deep thinking charismatics out here.
Thanks for your balanced approach to the gifts. It's biblically sound, and the only channel that is so. Keep it up guys😊🙏
You all are great !
Thank you for providing some logic and common sense to what appears to be growing in popularity insanity .
Love all the content you guys are putting out. Also I'm a big fan of Mr. Miller. I met him a church conference in Aspen a couple of years ago and learned so much about prophecy and healing. Twas a beautiful time with the Lord. Also if I ever get to leave the armpit that is Houston, I've got my eyes set on Denver and 2nd stop would be Michaels Church. First stop is obviously the denver biscuit.
company.
"Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
Acts 17:11 ESV"
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1 ESV"
sadly there are no authentic prophets or with prophetic gift today.... all of them missed Covid 19.... no one categorically heard from God that this is coming up... none... God did not speak to... reason... i think He wants us to rely study and dwell in His Word.... knowing His perfect will and what to do when certain circumstances arrive.... this is what and this is why we should be studying scriptures diligently prayerfully and obeying it to tune into inspired Word of God.... instead of waiting for a prophet which sadly we do not have so far...
Derek Prince is the best teacher in my opinion. For God called him to be a teacher of the Scriptures. Check out Derek Prince Ministries.
I know I am commenting a lot, but I would draw a distinction between praying in the spirit and the gift of tongues that requires interpretation. If it is an evangelistic service, I would see a difference. If sinners are coming to a believers meeting, whoever invited them should let them know what is happening. It prophecy what times and interpretation come forth in our church, and unbelievers are present, I will simply explain it to them. I will say something like, “what you just saw or heard is prophecy or tones with interpretation. You’ll find us in one Corinthians 12. “Something like that. If people simply explain what is happening then they will understand even if they do not agree. In act 10 the people at Cornelius‘s house received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. Peter did not tell them they were out of order. Call in one Corinthians 14 is simply emphasizing that we should pay attention to ever find the body and not only ourselves. Sorry for the typos Siri made through my dictation. LOL
Thank you for this discussion. As to those who hold position that praying in the Spirit equals to praying in tongues, I would like to share my perspective when I read scripture. Specifically Ephesians 6:18, NIV: "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord's people."
Most times I hear the first part of Eph 6:18 being quoted which is to pray in the Spirit at all times but not the second part where it says to pray with all kinds of prayers and requests....alert...praying for all the Lord’s people. This sounds like a call to pray for very specific things. I heard that when praying in the Spirit you don’t really know or understand what you are praying because the Spirit takes over, (trusting that the Holy Spirit is interceding according to God’s perfect will), but if using this specific verse as a reference it kind of defines or supports what it means to pray in the Spirit...does it not? 😕. Like if in Praying in the Spirit is when the Spirit prays and not our own selves, then how can we specifically pray for God’s people intentionally or present any specific requests or specific prayers for God’s people if we don’t know what we are praying for? 😕. This does not mean at all that I do not believe in praying in tongues.....just that the use of the first part of this verse makes me question how it’s commonly applied. Maybe my thoughts on it doesn’t make sense 🤷🏻♀️
I think I understand you. I'm a big believer that it is not the language that we pray in that determines whether we are praying "in Spirit" nor that determines the power and efficacy of our prayers but rather it is the humility in our hearts when we pray. "God hears the prayers of the proud from afar but is near to those who are contrite." I've done my best to understand what tongues is and what it isn't and I've concluded it is a means to allow those of us who lack words the ability to pray because prayer is important.
You boys have condensed the conversation and debate in my head for the last 50 years in less than 2 hours.
I must confess that at first I was somewhat leary about the guys, as if self-chosen representatives of God's "Remnant" in the Western Church (Still, always thankful for your continuationist stance). At the same time I've always been the sort of person to give credit where due: that said, I must concede that you guys are doing a GREAT 👍 job. (Increasingly I'm sitting through entire programs 🙃). Keep going, Bros.
Okay, I've added to the above comment three times. Lol. Words are so important as Christians, aren't they?
waw, thank you guys for this balanced episode.Very informative and you gave me some stuff to talk to the Lord about.
I could listen to this all day
rocketmanshawn: thanks man. I’ve seen you in the comments a few times. How long have you been watching.
Wow. Really good. Just getting to know your channel and going back to hear some of your old stuff. Very, very insightful. Thanks guys for sharing.
Awesome. I'm at a church that is MOSTLY "balanced," but the majority of the congregation and the pastor (not sure about one of the 4 elders) are of the "tongues is for all" persuasion. The first time I attended a "life group" meeting, when I asked for prayer for my marriage (I was separated at the time - now divorced), someone asked me if I had been baptized in the Spirit and whether I spoke in tongues. Amazingly, I still attend that life group, despite the fact that most members of the group think that praying in tongues has the "special power" you were talking about. Often (usually) during our prayer time, as we pray for each others' specific needs, some will pray in tongues, not usually at normal speech volume, but like background prayer behind the person who happens to be praying in English at the time. I've learned to deal with it, even though it still annoys me some. Occasionally in church, the pastor is led by the Spirit to have us break into small groups and pray for needs within the group. On these occasions, there will often be people "whispering" prayers in tongues.
This church is the most "real" church I've ever been a part of. The teaching is sound and the people are, for the most part, wonderful. The only issue is that my push back on the tongues thing is not given any serious consideration, even though I support it with scripture.
Thank you guys for doing this episode. I've been so blessed by this! God bless you guys and this ministry!
Gosh, this is such an important conversation! My only suggestion would be to possibly define terms. I think, for instance, the word "prophecy" means different things to different people. Defining what the Bible means by prophesy, tongues, and healing would add to understanding. I'm always concerned about healing in particular, because that's the world I operate in as a mental health professional. What does "healing" look like, and on whose timeline? What feels like it "should" be straightforward simply is not straightforward at all in practice. I am constantly seeking in prayer and education to figure out how this all is supposed to look....Thank you for another really great topic!
Yes the Apostolic gifts ceased around 70 AD 90 the cannon was complete
.we do not have any documented super natural gifts that have occured since ..which means there are no more prophet or faith healing .. the speaking in tongues is pretentious adjulation of a misinterpreted word tongue it's mean foreign language not some Narcisstic made up gibberish.. or could be a Kundalini being manifested
You guys are so sound in doctrine and I absolutely LOVE IT!
Every charismatic church I’ve attended… at some point, I’ve had people walk up to me and say something like “The Lord gave me a word for you… allow access” or “The Spirit is telling me to tell you, let nothing come between you and you wife”. These are very generic statements that are basically just unverifiable untestable statements. How can I biblically “test the Spirit” with these vague statements?
I went to the school of the prophets this past August at Bethel and it was so good and helpful in learning prophetic ministry.
Be careful who you’re getting your training from.
@@IMAGINENGINE well the Holy Spirit told me to go to the school so that’s that.
Great stuff love the living room conversation has a very different feel from the studio
Amazing . This is the best talk I have heard on the subject outside of my own personal conversations with believers .
Thanks Josh.
@@TheRemnantRadio I relate to Josh as I also grew up in charismatic circle and have experienced damaging practices that I never really could find taught in scripture. I am graduating Bible college this year and have to admit I'm struggling even with my own denominations requirements for credentials. I am currently part of the Pentecostal assemblies of Canada (PAOC) and snuggle with their statements of faith that seem to contradict each other. If you are ever interested in doing a talk on this I would be glad to.
Wow!!! I’m so glad, Michael Rountree, for what you said about praying for healing that sometimes God will let us know that we are healed or he will say as you said, “my grace is sufficient.” That is exactly what he told me when I was begging him to be healed of thyroid nodules and that possibility that one of them is cancerous. I’m serious. God interrupted my begging with those exact words as a thought in my head. He literally spoke over my words. It does give you peace about it. I was able to put it on the back burner and am now dealing with a possible cardiac problem, which I’m praying for healing as well, obviously. He gave me a verse for this too. “Be strong and of good courage, do not fear, nor be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you. He goes with you.” …”He will not leave you nor forsake you.” Deuteronomy.
I hope The Remnant Radio get to interview R.T. Kendall. He has a lot to say in this subject. And by the way, he was an apprentice of Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones.
Great discussion, not just because it is close to what I would agree with, but very balanced or open to further growth in your own positions. thanks guys
Mustering up faith, but about believing God‘s word with the heart, for faith is of the heart not the head. Also, you can have faith for one thing but not necessarily another. This has been my experience as well. But let us not think that faith is merely mind over matter. It is not. It is trusting that God will do what he said he would do and also trusting him as our father. I love this episode. Great discussion. I just think some people who believe in healing or afraid to come all the way with it because of certain consequences that they fear. I get that, but all we have to do is simply to embrace what the word teaches and leave the rest with the Lord. Let’s keep contending and if we are not receiving, simply keep contending and not blame God but get back in the Word. If someone does not receive who knows the Lord, the worst case scenario is that they go to heaven. That’s not a bad thing. But let’s content for God’s best.
You guys are way more reasonable than most charismatic believers, I've been in that camp for over 10 years.
Good stuff! Lots of nuggets for me. God bless you all
I appreciate these conversations but I do struggle with the prophetic gifting ever since I came out of the NAR movement. I have a distaste for it. I know it's due to the spiritual abuse I experienced over the last 15 yrs . I am believing God for healing and for a healthy view of the prophetic gifting.
I am from Ukraine and during last 30 years see both missusage and wonderful move of the Holy Spirit! I know it creates pain and prejudices, I think we should go after what the Bible says, not for the false ones, despite all Lord want to be glorified!
Great discussion guys. I appreciate the healthy dialogue on this subject.
Beautiful, thanks guys. I would have some nuanced differences on the tongues portion, but certainly not enough to argue over. Love the conversation.
Loved every minute of this.
Loved hearing you guys talk about deliverance from demons! I’ve recently gotten involved in this ministry. One Scripture I want to point out is when Paul was casting out a demon in acts 16:18 it says the demon came out within the same hour... meaning it took longer than just one instance of saying “come out”. It came out within the hour. Deliverance sometimes takes time and sometimes hours!
Thank you guys. You have a great perspective.
I wish this wasn’t so relevant but it is.. 😟 all of it.. Outstanding that it’s being talked about. God bless you all. Loved this episode.
Rusty Crusty! ha! I am going to use that one now.
Thanks you guys for your ministry. May your tribe increase.
Cherish you guys 🔥❤️🔥
I was raised Baptist and had a very real born again experience when I was 8 yrs old. At that young age I kind of just knew that there was more to God than what I'd been taught. I ended up in an Assembly of God church and experienced so many miracles that I was a personal witness to. My son grew up in that church and in the Providence from God realized the same thing I did - that there was more to God than what he'd been taught. He became a Calvinist and is now in at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. I have also come to believe in Calvinism. When he and I talked about it, is was like I'd really known all along but couldn't deal with it. But now, as I've heard Sam Storms say, I feel like I'm in the middle of divorced parents and I don't know where to go for Christmas. I live an hour south of Houston. Could you possibly point out to me any churches you know of close to me? Also it's so awesome to see what God is doing to unify us into one body! It's so exciting to think we could have actual unity in the Body of Christ and what will come from it!
Idk about churches but luckily Jesus died for us so that we can pray daily and praise Abba.
This was great!! When I go to pray for people to be healed, I always go into it believing it IS His will so that I can pray in faith. I’ve seen people get healed after praying for a third time. Sometimes we give up too quickly before the healing comes. I’ve also heard that healing is not dependent on the person receiving healings’ faith but on the faith of the person praying for their healing. What are y’all’s thoughts on this?
This is an excellent discussion, very helpful. Thank you x
Really loved your subject!!! So needed...
I certainly believe in the suffering of the believer, I just do not believe that the Lord intended that to be sickness. I believe God teaches us through his Word. I believe sickness directly or indirectly comes from the enemy well healing comes from God. But I like the point that one of them made because people tried to say that Paul’s thorn in the flesh with sickness. If you have the revelation Paul head, we’ll talk about it. LOL I know people have had discussions for centuries on Paul’s thorn, but to me it is clear in the text that it came from Seton and it was a messenger of Satan to buffet him. If we read in the previous chapters he talked about all the persecution he was under, so that makes sense to me. I am dictating this post as one who was born without vision. I have never had usable vision, but I still believe healing is gods will and continue to minister healing and continue to contend for the kingdom. My experience is not the barometer of truth. Hi along with other believers still struggle with issues of the flesh at times even though it is gods will for me to live free from it. I just get back up again by the grace of God with repentance and faith. In the same way, when I need physical healing for my body I believe God for it as a provision given to me. I do not beat myself up because I do not get an instant manifestation, but I continue to believe the word of God and contend for what I do not see then my faith becomes site. The same is true concerning victory over sin. So in one sense yes all believers will all behold when Christ comes at the consummation of the ages, but let us not use that do not contend for what is God’s will for us which I believe is established in the Scriptures of Isaiah 53, Matthew eight, acts 1038, etc. Just my thoughts on it. I will not blame God for what I do not see, but continue to press on in faith so that what is unseen will become seen. The same goes for sin, sickness, poverty, fear and everything that comes with the enemy. God is a good God and we do not need to re-define good to mean anything other than good. I realize this is anthropomorphic, but good natural parents would not abuse their children with sickness. What makes anyone think that God would? To me it is a ridiculous theology and a cop out because of what we do not see. And keep in mind… This is coming from a blind individual so no one can say that I do not know what I’m talking about.
Thank you, Brothers 🌹⭐🌹⭐🌹
I’ve heard of people getting healed after they stopped trying so hard to be healed. They were trying so hard to be healed instead of just resting and trusting the Lord for healing. And then they suddenly got healed!
Y'all in town darn! hopefully one hope to meet y'all. Bless You Brothers
Powerful and balanced.
My heart has known these things but you guys have spoken it
When I read a lot of the comments, i often feel like giving the following bulletin so I guess I will lol: For quite a while now the Systematic Theology text used at the Baptist Southern Seminary has been Wayne Grudem’s, who is far from a cessationist. So it really shouldn’t come as a surprise that many of us Baptist’s aren’t cessationists. Also, even though we may not emphasize or practice prophecy like many charismatics do, we also want to be sensitive to the Spirit and be used by the Lord to minister to others in whatever way He’d use us, well outside of our comfort zone. We also pray for the sick to be healed and wouldn’t do so if we didn’t believe in it. Anyhow, GREAT DISCUSSION!
I am in the middle on this subject which a lot of people may think I am coward. I truly believe that God moves in the way that it’s laid out in the bible but my life is not based on seeing miracles. I truly believe that if you call yourself a prophet and you say this is a word from God that it has to come true and part of me feels there isn’t enough follow up on this. I believe we should pray for the sick and I believe that God can heal. I have said this a few times everyone now keeps saying I heard God speak to me and God said. To the point that of what you think God said is more important than if it lines up with scripture and if it fits with Gods character. It seems today and excuse me Lord that God somehow is a chatter box talking 24 hours a day yet the body of Christ is in more confusion than ever before.
I dont disagree with you. We are looking to produce more theological content on the gift of prophecy in the coming months. Hopefully we can address this.
i think too many churches encourage everyone to just step out and have a go to prophesy that can be dangerous
THIS... 🤔😟 but I don’t have an answer or alternative.
You should read Graham Cooke's book, 'Prophetic Responsibility'
@@johananmarcus7932 thank you. ill check it out
Amen, love trumps all gifts. And what is greatest demonstration of love? Jesus Christ. We should definitely point it to Him.
So happy to have found this channel. I'm in a southern baptist church that talks about cessationism. I wonder why some people picked some gifts to continue and some gifts to cease ( that it the gift of prophesying was left to the apostles). We believe it is because there's no "new news" as you guys mentioned and that the Bible is already clear in what is to be prophesied.
When someone speaks in tongues and is interpreted, how do we confirm it? If it follows scripture. Therefore, scripture is the source of all verification. However, I stand between both sides. I still have much to learn which has ceased and which continues. Sometimes I just leave it all to God and instead of asking Him to speak in tongues/interpretation, etc., I ask Him to humble my heart and demonstrate love instead.
This was a great discussion uniting both sides (though I felt there were a few misunderstandings about cessationism) and it was encouraging to me. Thank you guys!
The big picture about this discussion could be, how does the Grave of Forgiveness come into all that was spoken here?
Meaning, much offense could come from misuse and abuse of the misapplication of the Gifts of the Spirit. Forgive 70 x 7.
I’m thinking of Charles Spurgeon who would call people out in the middle of a sermon- definitely public!
Yeah I remember hearing that excursion called people out in the crowd period one for working on Sunday. There’s no restricting said that you can’t call someone out in a crowd. But when someone is called out they should be able to confirm what the preacher is saying is true or not either through the word or talking to other elders about the situation
I've heard it being shared before that "the devil doesn't understand tongues" and after y'all brought it up in 47:28, I began to think about it. If tongues is a heavenly language, then how can it be that Satan doesn't know it? After all, he WAS pretty much one of the highest ranking angels before he fell 😂
Straight fax many pastors are leading many to false hood. But Jesus sheep will find him.
I guess someone could try to argue this is a new language God established after Satan was casted out. (But there are no verses to support such things)
Modern Tongues is a Pretentious Narcisstic display of emotionalism that counterfiets biblical gift of Languages. Tongues is foreign language do all dialect hear the gospel in the foundation of the church.. not some made up gibberish that is evidense of being baptised in the spirit. Fleshly manifestations of this spirit is not Holy or biblical . It's pure Knosticism
@@sosassteelstrings9623 If you discern act properly .. you will find out that " tongues" is foreign language is to preach the gospel to different dialects not for uttering estatic Gibberish to confirm baptist ism of the Holy Spirit. sTorslbunnilcal use of tongue .. we don't need or have modern gift of tongues Prophesy or Healings ..Instead God gave us innerant God's word in scripture
Speaking in tongues is a gift given to believers through the Holy Spirit to be used in private between you and God. Purpose is that the Holy Spirit in a holy language intercedes for use when our words can’t cover the cries of our heart when in prayer. Also because we are human and don’t know how to pray properly, the Holy Spirit then will speak on our behalf.
The Lord spoke to me and said don’t ever wear those flip flops again.
That’s actually funny 😄
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
amen there's no difference between old and new prophecy the LORDS is the same
Powerful conversations brothas!
A prophecy is either the Word of God or it’s blasphemy. There is no grey area
I went to a Oneness Pentecostal church where they believe speaking in tongues is THE initial evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. I had never heard this teaching before, but it definitely has made me question my salvation. So many people from different denominations have different beliefs about salvation, I've felt so overwhelmed with all the confusion. I've honestly just felt defeated.
How do we know who's got it right? How do we know we're doing this right?
Matthew 11:28-30❤
As someone turning from the sins of mormonism and seeing the sins of abuse and misuse of the gifts of the Spirit. It is helpful to remember that much of what the mormoms(lds) perform is in ignorance and thus their sin is in the misuse fo the gifts. This opened up forgiveness when I let go of the anger that all these people were being purposefully and intentionally abusive.
Really late to this discussion. I am not a word of faith or prosperity gospel person but I do scratch my head at Matthew 13:58 and Mark 6:5-6.
When it comes to sickness and you were believing for healing, I do not believe the Lord is going to say my grace is sufficient, or in other words, I’m not going to heal you, when he has demonstrated his will and his word. So I have to push back on that a little bit. When we do not know, we simply should say we do not know but do not blame it on God.
I think of it like how its spoken of in Daniel. God can do it but he might not, thats his prerogative.
16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”
Promises. If this is true, and it is, we would have to have all that they had under the old covenant plus in terms of provision. So if healing is not provided in the new covenant, it would not be better. Everything is updated. All provisions were looking to the cross, now we look back to the cross. Why is it that we all can’t believe God to save us, but we have difficulty with believing God to manifest healing for us? Romans 8:32 shows us that God did not spare his son but delivered him up for us all. How shall he not with him freely give us all things? Healing is less than justification. I realize we do not always see what we should, this is why we go back to the word and continue to meditate on it because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. A lot of this maybe maybe not stuff is not reduced from Scripture, but the fallacy of making our experiences the barometer of truth. Let’s believe the word and let our experiences come up to where they should be.@@grandmasterlucien I think of it that is provided in redemption. Whether or not you believe healing is provided in redemption would definitely reflect your view on it. You do not see in the word with Jesus turn people away who came to him and faith for healing. You simply do not see it. He revealed himself as healer in the old covenant. Hebrews 8:6 tells us that we have a better covenant established upon better promise
These kinds of practices are not Charismatic, but anti-Charismatic, that is, they deny the "charism," gift of the Holy Spirit. The problem with Pentecost is that it is a leavened feast (Leviticus 23:17). As Joel's prophecy declares, and as Peter reiterated it Acts 2, the Spirit descends, literally "poured out" upon "all flesh." Mystery.
really appreciate these guys; I've learned a lot from them (cut back on the millenial "like...like" language it's distracting and somehow dumbs down the show.)
I follow Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit to teach me all things. Dont understand why there are so many labels put on different types of believers. As charismatic, evangelical, Catholicism ect... Jesus is all in all! He is King! God Bless Yall and love you! Sharing my thoughts.
Great discussion, guys.
It was so good to see Hats again!
coffee cheers! 0:16 *clink* 😂😆
It was good.
Thanks for this, guys!
"There's certainly an appropriate use of heresy" -Remnant Radio
I understand the errors and exaggerations in the Charismatic church with healing, but it is always healthy, able bodied men/women with a public ministry talking about healing in the Charismatic church. If you talked to sick people in the Charismatic church, you'd see how messed up they are by the theologies. Some would pretend they were not sick. Some would say they are already healed. Some would say they are looking for revelation and 'there is something they aren't seeing' which is causing them to remain ill. As if they are gnostics, looking for knowledge. It is an absolute mess.
Wow. Thankyou for saying this. I’m glad to see people care. It really blessed me to read. I’m yet to be healed or umm I haven’t seen it manifest yet in the physical.
Notice my wording? I can’t say I am disabled so Yeahh..
I’m glad people notice what’s going on. God bless you
@@justmorenoise @Connie Hi Connie. I pray that you will find peace and freedom from these teachings. You absolutely can say you are disabled. God knows that you are sick and you don't have to hide it from him. He isn't up in heaven waiting for you to say you are healed in a perfect tone or waiting for you to magically check off some list that is too vague to ever be accomplished. Watching your words doesn't trick God into healing you nor does it align something in the universe. I am chronically ill too and came to the Charismatic church in 2012 looking for healing, wholeness and whatever else was available. All I found was men trying to build ministries and names for themselves, bad teachings and a lot of misguided human advice disguised as words from God. I had to get away from it all but I still believe in the gifts today. Yet I stopped listening to every healing minister and teaching and just got alone with God on my own. I am still disabled with POTS and keep seeking God for healing in my body, but I am no longer a slave to these terrible healing doctrines. They will put you into a panicked frenzy that you didn't say a prayer correctly or accidentally claimed your illness. It is all nonsense. All we can do is trust in the Lord and continue to walk each day with Him whether that is sick or healed. There is no magic teaching or magic word or magic man that will heal us all. Take care and God bless you!
ChaiLatte very well put. You understand it all well. :)
I completely agree with this.
Very good conversation.
Love this! I’m in Dallas which based on a comment I heard and you guys relationship with Michael I assume that is where you guys are from. I am currently looking for a church that lines up with this would love to know if you guys know anywhere that’s open 😂. I use to attend Upper Room for a few years and know Michael Miller use to teach and pastor there not sure if that is where the Lord wants me so wondering if you guys know anywhere else maybe that I could pray about attending. :)
I believe it’s always Gods will to heal. It’s our job to stand on that promise whether we see it come to pass here or in Heaven. It would me immature to say something like “I didn’t receive healing so it must not be Gods will”. That’s a temporary perspective of healing rather than an eternal perspective. You may not have received your healing in your earthly body, but I know for a fact when you enter Heaven the sickness will no longer dwell in you. Biblical faith is hard but those who see the most healing are those who refuse to believe in anything but healing. Abraham declared and believed he would be the father of many nations. Did he see it in his lifetime? No. Does that mean it wasn’t Gods will? Absolutely not! Have faith in healing regardless if you see it come to pass now or not. Hebrews 11 is great on learning about the heroes of faith.
It sounds like we need the word of God to set it right. Any prophedic word is to move people to move from blory to glory, it takes that person to pray and get the mind of the word given. mix it with faith not what other say. `There is four types of prophecy, very little from prophet.
The historic church taught that as a result of the fall Adams Nous was darkened and man lost direct fellowship with God. The spiritual faculty that gave Adam knowledge of God was darkened. As a result man now has a Nomic will. A Nomic will now means that man is filled with his own opinion. A nomic will vasilates and is uncertain when making decisions between right and wrong. Because the will is under the effects of the fall, the church fathers taught that we have to empty ourselves of our own opinions. We have to gain the mindset of the church. This was referred to as Phronema which means attaining the mind of the church. No Protestant or Pentecostal has this kind of theology or teaching. Phronema assumes that the Christian faith has already been given. The authority of the historic church was established hundreds of year's before there was a functional standardized canon of scripture. Timothy said the "church is the pillar and foundation of the truth" not the scripture. The scripture has authority because the church that gave the scripture had authority. Assuming the Bible has authority automatically assumes the authority of the church that gave birth to a canon. The historic doctrine of Pentecost teaches that inspiration is not just relegated to the Bible alone. The full meaning of inspiation is that both scripture and it's meaning are given to the historic church. That is why no scripture is subject to private interpretation. The Bible is not given to the individual and is not subject to fallen nomic opinion. That is why your opinion does not carry weight. Pentecostalism is not based on anything historical. Every Protestant ends up becoming their own Pope assuming the Bible is subject to each individual. Sola Scriptura is really Sola Mio, me alone. I spent 25 years of my life in Pentecostalism. My father was an Assemblies of God pastor for over 30 years. Pentecostalism is a heresy factory. Because it denies the true meaning of Pentecost. All Protestants have a wrong spiritual understanding of the scripture. Because they read the Bible on the assumptions of Enlightenment philosophy. Watch Jay Dyers video "Protestantism and Evangelicalism Refuted" on RUclips.
@355 Divine Yes, Jay Dyer is very gifted in explaining the flow of church history and where the splits and deviations occur in the West. If you watch Jay's videos you will discover other former Protestants who converted to Orthodoxy who are putting up great material on their own RUclips Channels. People with a Protestant background who come out of that spiritual darkness have already had a strong emphasis on apologetics. So many of these people are using their gifts to evangelize heretics. I agree with your statement that Protestantism is retarded. The church fathers often called heretics stupid. Because heresy is stupid. I am glad that Protestants love the Bible. Now we need to show them that they have the wrong starting points in their understanding.
By the way, check out Jay's web page. He has great articles on many different subjects. jaysanalysis.com
You would be better off being an atheist than a Protestant. Where do you think all the atheist came from? They came from Protestant and Catholic churches.
At 1:12:00 I have read that same stuff in a Dake’s annotated reference Bible - I had to put that study Bible “out to pasture” on that account.
I want to send this to my pastor…speaking of, can you do a video about influence of members in the body of the church, so how would one who isn’t on staff, isn’t a leader or anyone with big influence..how do we go about challenging theology or doctrine issues within the church? For instance, praying in tongues in a general assembly every Sunday/Wednesday service, and recently more praying in the spirit from the pulpit.
Great episode guys, thanks
Hi. You mention at the very beginning of this video, 2 other videos. One about Church of Christ & the other Essential doctrines. Would you please post links to them? Ty
Also I good example of false doctrine is where JWs see themselves as the 'the master, faithful & discreet slave & they are to feed the household' which is taken completely out of context. Sorry, don't know the exact verse.
i am in love with this conversation