I wanted to send this privately. I was looking for an email address for Remnant Radio and couldn't find one. I have so much to say, but I'll try to keep this short. I have such a heart for the Charismatic and Pentecostal communities. I'm from a Pentecostal persuasion myself. I grew up AG and after many years of being a part of other expressions of the Body of Christ (Brethren in Christ, UMC, Presbyterian, Non-denominational/Charismatic) have come back to the Assemblies. In fact, I'm currently exploring credentialing with the AGs. Anyway... I've been around "revival culture" since the mid 90s and have spent much of my adult life in circles that would now be labeled as NAR. When you (collectively speaking) talk about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I get it. However, as a person who has seen these type of teachings (NAR/Hyper-Charismatic/Mystical Christianity) in almost every church I've been involved in as an adult, I have to say I struggle to agree with you when I think about the effects these teaching and experiences have on believers --- especially believers young in the faith. To say that, i.e. "Bob Jones is right on prophetically, but don't give him the mic when it comes to teaching [please pardon my paraphrase]," reminds me of Gordon Lindsey and William M. Branham. When we have respected teachers giving their friends a "pass" because they know them and trust them, it's extremely harmful. I remember being in a meeting where the pastors let John Crowder "toke the Ghost" right on the platform alongside "Prophet," Jim Goll. It was beyond terrible! I trusted the pastor and if I wasn't grounded in Christ, I would have been doing the same thing, looking for the same experience. The pastor did not shut the mess down. I wonder how many other believers (or worse yet, nonbelievers) were out there trying the same thing. "But they also teach the Gospel." I'm sorry guys, but the Jesus that is being taught is not the same Jesus of the Bible. I love Bill Johnson and all those in the movement. I think he is caught up in the old Latter Rain deception. When he says he wants the mantle of William Branham, he doesn't know what he's asking for. It's another spirit. Look at the history --- Dowey, Parham, Lake, Branham... there's something at the root of the Pentecostal/Charismatic that is off. I think our Christology is paramount to addressing our current conundrums. Our focus on Christ is the main thing I love about being a classic Pentecostal. However, when we get our focus off Jesus, we have the discernment of a cockroach. I love the gifts, but if Jesus isn't front and center... I'm outta here. Please keep the conversation going. This is so important. Thank you.
I understand your concern very well, I myself also come from a NAR background and have been deeply hurt by bad theology that lead to bad and unchristian practices. In that church I grew up in the hypercharismatic was the main focus and I experienced a lot of things there and came under a lot of questionable teaching (word of faith, prosperity gospel, going to heaven, NAR etc.). But coming out of that time and looking back I can clearly see, how some of the experiences that were most extravagant were real and were instrumental in grounding me in God and the love for Him. At one point I was caught up in "laughing in the spirit" for 1.5 hours and looking back I'm sure, that that experience build in me a closeness to God that helped me overcome the realization that I had come to the faith under pastors that were really seeking their own power. If I had thrown that out, I'm not sure if I had made it through that season unharmed, but as it is the whole thing only served to strengthen and reinforce my faith and love for God. The fruit of it was good. I think there is a very fine line in giving the Spirit the room to operate at will while at the same time identifying and removing demonic influences. Not everything that is weird is from the devil and not everything that seems charismatic is from God. We need to stay in the game to stay faithful and seek God earnestly in all that.
@@cirdan4170 thank you for sharing your story. I definitely think hearing different people's experiences is an important part of the process... at least for me. 👍
I also have a very similar experience to yours but all the way in Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺 Greetings! Coming to faith in Christ in the 80’s in the AOG church (when they still preached the gospel every Sunday) was awesome but I could slowly see the progression of change amongst the organisation in Australia, first beginning with the influence of contemporary music and the insistence of “relevance”, secondly the increasing motivation for the “next big revival” (which we are all still waiting for) led the way for the influence of “new anointing” and every wave that would hopefully make its way down under. From Rodney Howard Browns Holy Spirit bartender to the obscure John Crowder I’ve seen it all (my brother was a big fan of John Crowder). Unfortunately, the more these manifestations took centre stage the more Christ finished work was preached less and less. Now it would be very very rare to walk in a Pentecostal or Charismatic church and even hear the gospel preached or the scriptures read and almost never exegeted. About ten years ago I left the Pentecostal Charismatic Movement after reading Gods Generals by Roberts Lairdon. It’s was supposed to encourage me in the faith reading about these mighty men of God but that book troubled me a lot. As I looked into each “general” the more I looked into the history, the more I could see problems. It’s not as a pretty a picture that is made out and is very very concerning. From Alexander Dowie (who started in Australia) to Smith Wigglesworth it is all very very problematic and continues to be.
Since you guys are comparing Bethel to the church at Corinth, note that the church at Corinth repented when Paul corrected them (2 Cor. 7:9). David committed terrible sins, but he repented. I'll affirm Bethel when they repent of these things.
I was in a church that “did some good things” like you all said about Bethel. “They do some good things”. But the false doctrine the church I was in caused great spiritual harm to me and many others. People like me that left that church needed therapy. We had no intention of leaving the faith nor leaving God. Think of Christian Science for example. They “do some good things” but leave people and families devastated. The stories of friends of mine from the church I left are similar to someone leaving, say for example the Christian Science church or Mormonism or Amish etc. you are left feeling like you are leaving faith, walking away from God, walking away from people you love. You truly feel lost even though you still love God and his teachings. It’s a horrible, deeply painful experience. Please consider the false teachings by Bethel, on the same level and leading to this type of damage and destruction. Please don’t equate what some would consider, (by a conservative and careful use of this word) a cult. The church I left is considered by many, who study cults, a cult. A cult does some good things too. Be more cautious and let Bethel off the hook when they start revising some terrible, damaging, false doctrines. I don’t think you understand the harm it causes people when they find out years later that a doctrine they were taught is true, they find out it is demonstrably scripturally untrue. They will feel they were lied to by close friends and spiritual leaders. They will have great difficulty listening to and trusting any biblical teacher again. They may mistrust God because they put their faith in Him and he “let them” become deceived by what they believed and accepted as truth. They put their faith in a teaching which seemed to be sound and biblical. Now trust and faith in teachers, preachers, spiritual leaders is damaged. You are taking this false teaching by Bethel TOO LIGHTLY
I’m not sure what denomination you came from, but how you describe what you felt when you left is such a similar experience as mine when I left the Pentecostal Church. I was so broken, but thankfully God was with me always and set me free! I feel like my previous denomination distorted the Gospel, and so many other things about the Bible that I’m in a process of relearning everything - this channel is helping me in this. I truly love the people I grew up with, yet I feel like I was let down in the most important way - the Bible and salvation. It was so harmful that I can’t even begin to describe what I went through for 25 years. Thank you for your comment. 🙂
Same experience here. I came out of a very well known ministry school and was confused for almost 2 years. The Lord was so gracious to me in that season and still is, even though I kept Him at a distance. After leaving that school, I was hardly able to read my Bible, pray or even listen to worship. I received powerful deliverance from “false spirits” and the purity my relationship with Christ has before attending that school was restored. Everything wasn’t pure bliss after my deliverance but the demons tormenting me and keeping me confused were gone and I found myself in a place of surrender and trust again with the Lord. I am leaving SO MANY details out for brevity’s sake but what you experienced is very similar to my testimony from certain churches allowing new age and mixture in their doors. It needs to stop. It’s so damaging. I was rooted in the word and still fell into deception because this need to have some “encounter” is elevated above all else even discernment. You’re told not “to put God in a box.” TEST THE SPIRITS PEOPLE!!! After my deliverance, I have led others from this ministry school in deliverance as well. The occult is infiltrating the church and it needs to be addressed. I’ve seen firsthand the damage it’s caused in my life and the lives of others. Many of my classmates aren’t even walking with the Lord anymore.
Word for word my testimony. This damaging heresy almost shipwrecked my faith. I had so much trouble trusting God, the word and even worship music after leaving a famous ministry school. I received deliverance from false spirits and have helped some former classmates get free too. There is witchcraft and occult practices being mixed in with the Holy Spirit and you’re told to just receive. Not to “put God in a box.” I raised questions on false spirits with my small group and was quickly shit down. No room for disagreement. Many classmates have left the faith and others have struggled since leaving school. We need to be very discerning and tests the spirits. Someone looks as if they need deliverance and we just yell, “more Lord, more!” After receiving freedom my eyes have been opened to just how much new age is seeping into the church. We need to be addressing it. Is SO damaging. Thanks for sharing. You’re spot on.
Just want to thank you for your channel! It is so informative and gives such a deep understanding of different beliefs and it is absolutely appreciated. Thank you so much!
I have really learned so much from listening to this channel. I used to be a straight cessationist, but since I have been listening to people on this podcast and to my pastor, I have come to think that the gifts may exist today, and I am looking to visit a church where I can see things for myself (I attend a small Methodist church with a variety of beliefs but the United Methodist Church is cessationist in general.)
Good evening Ms Mcleod not sure where you are located but there’s a church that most of its history has been part of UMC and now Free Methodist but believes in the gifts Grace Fellowship in Katy TX
If you guys at remnant radio read this, got a question: this bethel thing goes round and round and never seems to stop. You say you disagree, it is plain there are serious errors there which the leadership endorses. At what point would you say "enough is enough "? Surely at some stage you have to come to the point where you discontinue to associate with them as brothers in Christ. What is that line, and how many more times do you correct and warn etc and they still don't change. This is not a case of forgiving 70 x 7 times as Jesus said. This is a case of bringing the name of Jesus into disrepute and open to mockery. Ultimately the hope is that people repent but they won't unless they are treated as unbelievers. It's like doing tough love with an adult child.
That’s a hard question to answer. I think once we have seen that a movement is decidedly stepped away from core orthodox doctrines as laid out in the Nicene Creed or Apostles Creed then we can quickly affirm it as heretical. If the movement endorses & teaches the doctrines of the creed it is hard to call them heretical. I personally wouldn’t want my kids going to some of these churches but I can’t quite call them heretical. Also, there has to be room for repentance. Some of these churches have made some intentional language changes where their words seemed heretical and now are definitely orthodox.
Dear Remnant Radio You guys have been instrumental to my healing from my pentecostal background. Your videos and seeing the experiences of others showed me that I'm not alone and God is still alive. Thank you.
This show is so valuable. Please do not ever stop! It’s a true service to the body of Christ. I don’t necessarily agree with everything you fellas say, but I can affirm your honest hearts and it sure makes me assess thoroughly what I believe and why, plus, I’m learning a LOT! Bless you!
I would like a part three to this. Pretty much on the same page as you guys with everything y’all are saying about it, but was/am very unaware of teachings like these.
I found you guys after about 2 years of watching videos with christian content, mostly focused in theology and I have been pleasantly surprised with this podcast. I love it!!! I love how you strive to call out the gimmick that happens in the church sometimes and to be fair and respectful
Have you guys asked Elijah about The Physics of Heaven? That was written by people in his church, including Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton, and you're saying it has doctrines of demons. Or The Passion Translation, since Bethel uses it and sells it?
I was wondering this exact same thing. Kris Vallotton even highly misappropriates Ephesians 3 to suggest these practices are the mysteries that Paul is talking about (when Paul clearly states that the “mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers so the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel”). Kris also suggests that to not pursue these practices would be risk less living. The Bob Jones clip is from Bethel, and you can see both Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton laughing at the teaching. Add the endorsement of The Passion Translation to the mix, and I just don’t understand how Bethel constantly gets a pass.
You can’t, it’s nonsense and the only dude won’t condemn it because there’s also some truths… well the devil and occult has some truths to it too but is deceptive so should we not dismiss it either cuz some good comes from the little truth or because they donate money?.?
Sometimes gentleman you just have to lay the axe to the tree. I have noticed this channels Achilles heel has always been approaching peripheral movements with kid gloves. You can come along side such movements like Bethel and look for common ground, but never call them out as 'brood of vipers of anything'. Do you think anyone will repent for the passion translation. Anyone at all ? Or so many of their offensive silly teachings. Perhaps this is how business is done . In case it's not clear, I speak of the leadership , not the sheep, who undoubtedly are untaught in even the basics of the faith. Anyway thx in general for a strong and worthwhile channel that is sorely needed. Just don't choke up excuses for people who aren't really with us.
I think we are doing our best to nuance. When you have a hammer it’s easy for everything to look like a nail. We don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Part of the problem in all this is that action causes reaction. And the need to somehow manage to navigate the " the radical middle"- a high regard for scripture together with a recognition ( a really inadequate word to use,) of the currency of the miraculous for the church. What beats me alltogether, is that the effectiveness of the 1st C church with minimal literature, and resources was so great. If u want to understand a position opposing yours, you really need to understand the opposing view. Thats where we reach for the negative ephithets - and maybe we shouldnt rush there. These discussions are never going to either be or give rise to" last word on" nor comprehensive views, but they really are useful to gaining understanding.
Hey guys, I really enjoyed this episode and hope you cover the other subjects mentioned in this video next week. Anyhow, I was wondering if you all would consider doing an episode on when you can't feel the presence of the Holy Spirit? As a believer, and servant of Jesus Christ, I've gone through several difficult seasons where I couldn't feel his presence. I always wondered why, however I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons. Just a thought, keep up the excellent work.
Thank you so much, really appreciated this episode. Genuine question - if we are to have nuance when discussing churches like Bethel, how does that fit with Jesus teaching that we would know a tree by it's fruit? If some of the teaching is doctrines of demons and some truth how do we judge the fruit? Jesus seemed to say the tree would either be good or bad.
Bingo! You can't get bitter and sweet water from the same spring, so why should we accept doctrines of demons and some good doctrine from the same church? If I have to sort the good from the bad fruit, I am just going to move on from that tree.
the Bob Jones clip made me physically sick. this was strictly the territory of pagans, wiccans, and new agers in the 1980's. now its in church?!? i guess i shouldn't be surprised. every other sin is welcomed with open arms.
Judging people’s fruit to know if they are genuine Christians is based on their character and their doctrine. If Jones has a big stain on his character (hopefully he really repented) and he was known to be an untrustworthy teacher (which is where his doctrine would come in)- Why would anyone with discernment trust Jones as a brother or as a prophet?
Only thing I would like to suggest and talk about is this restoration and repentance issue. While I would not like to see someone held back over sins, especially when they repent and are restored back to the Church. They have no authority to continue as leaders in the Church, none as far as Scripture goes. Scripture tells us that leaders must be trustworthy, and blameless before the Church etc. When leaders betray that trust they are not to be given leadership and yet I hear time and again that these leaders, who have done terrible things, come right back to a position that they held before. Have you done a show on this and what is the correct teaching from Scripture for this? Cheers
"...Therefore, Augustine said that the Christian ought to learn as much as he can about as many things as he can because all truth is God’s truth..." Quoted from R. C. Sproul article in Sept. 2023 --We have got to see false teachers and demonic doctrines exposed to guard the preciousness of knowing and walking in Truth. TY for your channel.
@Josh I love what you guys do and you have blessed my life so richly with what you all teach! I had a thought and figured I’d share/ask. I was wondering if you might consider closing out in prayer in your videos. There is so much power in prayer and I know that God uses prayer to align my heart with the truth I learn about. Thanks so much!
We need another video. Please acknowledge that the evil have power. If those in the new age see Christians who are out of touch with the real power in the new age then they will discount us as being out of touch with everything. They cannot trust us if we do not speak truthfully about the real events happening in the new age and those new age practices in the Charismatic movement. Exodus 7:10-13 The Egyptian sorcerers also turned their rods into snakes and other bible passages point out that the evil do have power. The healings in Sedona (physics of heaven) are demonic but real - as in relief from pain inflicted by demons. Also, the "word of knowledge" from those with demonic influence is also very real and spot on. I have witnessed an evil (or new age) person having revelation and "insight" to things the person did off-site or spoke at home in private, we must acknowledge that. We need to give those in the new age movement the truth that our God is more powerful, kinder, more gentle, more loving and their true creator.
To speak to what Michael says around the 1:00:00 mark. If a person abuses their gifts and or position, then yes, they should be removed from the Church. If they repent, they should be restored to the Church, but they should never again be given a position of authority, or allowed to exercise those gifts. Michael says he doesn't want to be too dogmatic because he can't think of any Scriptures to support it, but I will point people to the fact that in the Old Testament, false prophets were meant to be cut off. Christ became the curse for us, so we can be forgiven, but if the Law teaches someone should have been cut off completely for being false prophets, then there's no restoring them to the position of prophet. We also have the qualifications for elders, that says they are to be blameless. Anyone who abuses their authority, is not blameless, no matter how much they repent. If elders must be blameless, then how much more so those who operate in the gifts of prophecy?
It's a worthwhile conversation and I appreciate it.....my only concern is that no one gets it all right....no one....and fundamentalism and calvinism and modalism and catholicism and wesleyanism (my stream) can't all be right right nor are they all wrong.....heresy hunting can really be as damaging as any heresy.....we all believe error but we are not heretics,,,,,grace and love is the way forward...strange fire conferences are chilling and near blasphemous.....just don't go there
I know this is off the charismatic topic, however since you are discussing doctrines of demons. What are your thoughts about how Calvinism totally distorts the nature of God. I believe it is a doctrine of demons. It actually does distort the gospel. Would love to hear you guys really unpack that belief system scripturally. Thanks so much. I appreciate all three of you guys.
When I first heard Brian Simmons’ narrative on how the so-called Passion translation Bible came to be, it immediately reminded me of the Joseph Smith golden plate account. Complete with divine encounter and mandate, new revelation and authority; all the usual suspects. Truly, there is nothing new under the sun.
If someone is teaching doctrines of demons they should be exposed and disqualified to teach or prophesy, period. Bethel is a church that teaches doctrines of demons and should be avoided. Hopefully those that are in that church will study the Bible and flee that place. Bob Jones just used New Age ritual to empty your mind in order to have a supernatural experience at your own will. And he said don't pray which is our way of communicating with God. When I was in the New Age before getting saved, I tried to astral project by using this method. Thank God I never achieved that, I think even then God was protecting me, knowing I was coming to Him in the days to come. My sister was a medium, did automatic writing and we experienced many supernatural manifestations in our family. All my family got saved and I am so grateful to the Lord for his mercy and grace. After I got saved I learned about deliverance and got delivered and was then used in the deliverance ministry for a time. At one time I followed some of these prophets like Rick Joyner, Cindy Jacobs, but it didn't take long to recognize that they were off.
I. Have a problem with Clueless Critics comparing the gift of tongue's with the kunalini spirit Cult. It's what the bible calls blaspheming the holy spirit.
is it "demonizing" Bethel to point out they preach a different Gospel, and Bill Johnson is a false teacher and false apostle? Or is that what scripture teaches disciples of Jesus to do in love. It is not loving to say that because they do some good things, we can ignore the false doctrine they teach?
I gotta say Michael Roundtree thanks for saying it out loud about the easy restoration to « ministry »of those who have marketable gifts… I think that kind of restoration is truly only about marketing. Consciously or not
Thank you so much for your important ministry!! I think the qualifications prescribed by Paul in I and II Timothy lend great authority to re- installation of teachers and elders/pastors after sexual sin while shepherding the church. I agree with Roundtree that while they can repent and be restored back into church fellowship, they do not qualify under leadership according to these passages.
You guys are sweet, but when you say " they are our Christian brothers..." here is jezebel, and the charismatic response: shes got some bad doctrine, but some good things are happening. " jezebel teaches fornication, but we just need to put sex in its proper context. Sex is a gift from God--we just need to properly contextualize her teaching." Charismatic theology is consistently a bag of snakes, especially Bethel. God says walk away. Condemn it, and walk away. Christ condemns it, and if he spews it out, stop gargling with it.
Really appreciate discussions like these. Not easy to have, but much needed in our church today. Any chance you guys might be getting Lindsay Davis on the show at some point?
Thank you for this convo. Its really important! 32:01 the CC says Josh is saying the Lords name in vain. Not sure if you can fix that, but wanted to make you aware of it. I'm sure he is saying Oh my gosh, but the translation is off.....
Thank you so very much 🙏😊! I have to write in Swedish🙈😉. En av de ABSOLUT bästa kanaler jag stött på👍😊!! Jag är en "old lady" 😉😆, bor i Sverige och jag måste säga att det finns inte många "kyrkor" att välja på och traditionen är väldigt utbredd och förankrad bland både människor och samfund. Det är extremt svårt att få svar på "djupare" frågor, likadant när det kommer till biblestudier. Vi har inte ens så många studier. Jag vill absolut inte "klaga på" eller vara respektlös mot svenska kyrkan eller de som arbetar där. Jag saknar gemenskap, samtal och studier med fokus på tro och skriften. SÅ, tack så enormt mycket för vad ni och många med er😊👍💖! Vill också tillägga att väldigt många söker sig till new age istället. Jag hoppas att någon/några tar sig tid att läsa det här och hör att jag ber om böner och likaså tips om vad jag kan göra själv. Helt enkelt, be för oss här i Sverige och kom med tips😊. Kan tillägga att jag redan har åkt ut ur en "frikyrka" för att jag frågade "för mycket"😉. Gud välsigne er🙏❤. Vill också be om böner för vad som pågår här i Europa nu😢💔. Jag bor som sagt i Sverige och har inte så "långt" till olika gränser där jag skulle vilja hjälpa till eller på annat sätt hjälpa till, men eftersom jag har problem med att gå (egentligen kroppen överlag) så kommer jag inte så långt och det är ENORMT FRUSTRERADE🤯😭. BLESSINGS TO ALL OF YOU🙏❤!
How often have you ever heard somebody in a congregation shut down a service seriously I mean I'm there people to walk out but I've never seen anybody say preacher you're wrong or the speaker being wrong they usually just walk out
Thank you for the video... to MICHEAL ROUNDTREE- QUESTION? "Maybe I need more grace" was the comment you had for Bob Jones in which you believed you had no scripture to support your position... what's your insight into Hebrews 6:1-4... again thank you for the ministry... May the Hand of the Lord be upon Remnant and all yours...
There are wolves within the church body. When the Lord exposes them it is up to leadership to address it. If someone uses the gifts to profit or harm others those who are over that individual must address it. Not look the other way. Oh Bob he is just being Bob he has done a lot of good things, prophesied in the name of Jesus. Jesus speaks of this ““Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?” Matthew 7:15-16 NIV discernment has been lacking definitely in the church, but accountability also has also. We are to go to the person sinning and speak to them with correction from love. But that’s the time that their character needs to be look at by the church. To many people in leadership get slapped on hand and allowed to continue in that role cause more trauma to the body
All you need is to ask God for discernment, wise as serpents, harmless as doves, read your bible, study it and the holy spirit will soon show you when someone is telling you "porky Pies " These false teachers are wolves in sheeps clothing. Some even occultic. Be sure they will leave you open to being oppressed by demons.
I have a question and this is related to the relationship between exegesis and prophecy. I know this is not probably related to the discussion but I am hoping to get your thoughts. I have listened twice to your gnosticizing of scripture episode and I have a question that has been on my mind. Was Paul and exegete in the way we define exegesis now? Is there a way in which you can prophetically read scripture and is there such a thing as that?
Guys, wake up. God hates mixture(Deuteronomy, 22:9-11). The very fact that these videos are still available on Bethel‘s website would have to lead one to believe that they have no intention of repenting of these practices. Yes, they speak a lot of truth, but that only makes the lies that much more powerful. I’m not willing to say that they are doing all of this intentionally but the bottom line is, one cannot listen to their teachings, without hearing the lies along with the truth.
Charismaticism seems to me to be so obviously an error, I cannot figure out why it is defended. Luther had it right when he called such folks Enthusiasts; i.e., those who thought they had God so much within them, the External Word became subordinated to their internal intimations. That this question recurs, "Is this Enthusiastic group a demon?" speaks for itself, really.
Thank God for the passion translation! Amplified Classic! Etc. I noticed that There is no pushback on the message… maybe the way the passion is worded really expounds on the truth! People are always looking for loopholes and hide in the theology that serves them… Arguments don’t win people to Christ
Continue on this subject and then sometime do an episode on the religious spirit.but I feel there is much more to be discussed on this loaded topic that is essential for the life of all spirit filled believers especially those who are young and/or weaker in their Faith...idk..jus my opinion.GOD BLESS!!!
The Doctrine of ‘Cessationism’ is from Demons!!! Let’s discuss this terrible doctrine instead of the charismatic doctrines and manifestations that people who will not even embrace the ministry of the Holy Spirit cannot understand. Because, they are spiritually discerned! Please! Where are those who actually have experience in the gifts of the spirit? Bring those people on your show. Thanks
In Corinth, they practiced all kinds of sins, but they did not teach demonic doctrines, and then they also responded to Paul's admonition and repented. Bethel teaches demonic doctrines and does not repent. For example, the book "Physics of Heaven" produced by Bethel. It is a book that reflects their beliefs, and the book is full of witchcraft and esotericism, "supported" by pseudoscience. Do you think "The Passion" is a Bible? It's even worse than the Jehovah's Witness "Bible". And yet they use it. There are tons of information about the false teachings of Bethel, where they stick to it and do not repent. Almost impossible to compare.
@@davidvia6897 Is this a serious question? Are you not familiar with the book "Physics of Heaven" produced by Bethel? It is a book that reflects their beliefs, and the book is full of witchcraft and esotericism, "supported" with pseudoscience. Do you think "The Passion" is a Bible? It's even worse than the Jehovah's Witness "Bible". And yet they use it. There are tons of information on the false teachings of Bethel. Seek and ye shall find. Blessings.
@@davidvia6897 Is this a serious question? Are you not familiar with the book "Physics of Heaven" produced by Bethel? It is a book that reflects their beliefs, and the book is full of witchcraft and esotericism, "supported" with pseudoscience. Do you think "The Passion" is a Bible? It's even worse than the Jehovah's Witness "Bible". And yet they use it. There are tons of information on the false teachings of Bethel. Seek and ye shall find. Blessings.
I appreciate you guys& what your doing. Please take a breath & pause in your speech instead of Saying “UGH & UGHM” for almost every other word. I want this to edify you all in Hopes of reaching more people with This Awesome Channel. Much love & May our father in Heaven Bless You All!!!
Hey guys love your channel. Question ? When it comes down to False Doctrine, what do you think about all the many religions such as: Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, Seven Day Adventist and many others. With so many do you think this would change doctrine with so many different views. I have a question here ? When God created the very first man ( Adam ) what religion was he ? Appears to me that he simply had a relationship with God!! Even Jesus mentioned to the disciples….follow me!! How do you see this ?
what is the difference between possession and oppression? When being a participant in a deliverance session is imperative to totally trust the leader? can you go through a deliverance session?
If Bob Jones shouldn't have been restored to teach because of what he did, shouldn't John Gray be removed from being a pastor at Relentless Church for what he has done? (twice apparently)
Absolutely, no leader who have failed terribly like these two & ors should be restored to leading positions. We should still have fellowship with them once repented and restored to the faith.
In a bit of opposite direction,have you done a program on the Orthodox study Bible and the departure of many charismatic and evangelicals to Eastern Orthodoxy?also discuss it with knowledge able person involved or Orthodox cleric?
It’s a real shame, their doctrine definitely falls into doctrines of demons. Our weak emphasis on teaching core biblical doctrine to everyone is allowing them to swoop in with powerful rhetoric and deceive many. To understand their doctrine especially put into Protestant terms I would check out their confession of Dositheus there is an English translation and they straight up explain how we are saved by works
The original source of the "stillness of mind" teaching comes from Mark Virkler... He began talking about "How to hear God's voice" - 4 steps in the 1970s and has influenced many . Tracing that connection links many. This method is hugely in contrast to the Biblical approach of hearing God from Dallas Willard (E Stanley Jones FB Meyer). The influence of Mark Virkler is wide.
Pretrib rapture is an example. There are no passages in context that actually teach it. Rather, it's a fantasy idea brought to each text and assumed upon it.
Greetings from Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺 Great content fellas, it’s very important work you do. Primary doctrines are important to get right that’s why I was surprised in the last episode on this topic that it was mentioned that Charles Finney was orthodox in his teaching. Unfortunately what he taught was far from orthodox as he was full Pelagian which, as you know, was condemned in the early church as heretical. His teaching on justification and the atonement is also unbiblical. Anyway, great content on this episode and an excellent balanced approach to calling out some perceived errors in the “charismatic”church. Keep up this important work. Also can you please do some episodes on the “Lakeland revival “ and especially talk about the “apostolic commissioning” of Todd Bentley and the myriad of utterances utterances spoken that night by the “elite”apostles days prior to the whole ministry falling apart. I think that discussion would be fantastic and important to the body of Christ. All the best and keep up this good work. Andrew.
Good comments. Here's what Peter Wagner said that night, "I take the apostolic authority that God has given me and I decree to Todd Bentley, your power will increase, your authority will increase, your favor will increase, your influence will increase, your revelation will increase ... God will pour out a higher level of discernment to distinguish truth from error." Wagner was joined by Bill Johnson, John Arnott, Rick Joyner, Che Ahn, etc. And a few weeks later, the discernment of truth was indeed increased as God revealed to the world via God TV that Todd was in adulterous relationship and was lying about most of what we saw on TV. Not a single major miracle could be confirmed by Charisma magazines on-site investigation, led by Lee Grady. Dozens of supposed people raised from the dead were lies. God shouted Todd and the apostles sins from the rooftops. They weren't operating in the power of the Spirit at all. Not one of those prophets knew Todd was in such serious sin or was on the edge of crashing and burning. Shame on them all.
Thank you. Enjoying the topic and the show. I do enjoy going through apocrypha books, maybe only audio, I hope that the holy spirit will guide me through apocryphas , by reminding me what will be spiritually edifying and helpful, and not the rest. I'm sure there are attacks on God's word. Considering the warning in revelation about changing scripture. I'm sure scriptures has been hijacked for political or other intensions. Something like amplified or heaven or hell visitation, I eventually lost interest, but Enoch I ignored at first, but then later started to pay more attention due to it's gospel supporting views. Also heard the other day, Enoch had importance in the very early church before the book of revelation was (written revealed to John) Also as the gospels were starting to be written down. Am I wrong?
I say this in all love but you guys go off on some tangents that have been covered in past episodes multiple times. Love the content and the ministry but please get through what you guys are wanting to cover on these specific episodes. Blessings.
What kind of example is set for the Body of Christ when a leader is restored to ministry who has been sexually immoral on an ongoing basis? Don’t we have the grace of God to walk in obedience? (Rom 1:5)
![Steven Bancarz Interview (Part 1 of 2) - [The Second Coming of the New Age]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VpJjf2ZIsjo/mqdefault.jpg)
![Steven Bancarz Interview (Part 1 of 2) - [The Second Coming of the New Age]](/img/tr.png)
I wanted to send this privately. I was looking for an email address for Remnant Radio and couldn't find one. I have so much to say, but I'll try to keep this short. I have such a heart for the Charismatic and Pentecostal communities. I'm from a Pentecostal persuasion myself. I grew up AG and after many years of being a part of other expressions of the Body of Christ (Brethren in Christ, UMC, Presbyterian, Non-denominational/Charismatic) have come back to the Assemblies. In fact, I'm currently exploring credentialing with the AGs. Anyway... I've been around "revival culture" since the mid 90s and have spent much of my adult life in circles that would now be labeled as NAR. When you (collectively speaking) talk about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I get it. However, as a person who has seen these type of teachings (NAR/Hyper-Charismatic/Mystical Christianity) in almost every church I've been involved in as an adult, I have to say I struggle to agree with you when I think about the effects these teaching and experiences have on believers --- especially believers young in the faith. To say that, i.e. "Bob Jones is right on prophetically, but don't give him the mic when it comes to teaching [please pardon my paraphrase]," reminds me of Gordon Lindsey and William M. Branham. When we have respected teachers giving their friends a "pass" because they know them and trust them, it's extremely harmful. I remember being in a meeting where the pastors let John Crowder "toke the Ghost" right on the platform alongside "Prophet," Jim Goll. It was beyond terrible! I trusted the pastor and if I wasn't grounded in Christ, I would have been doing the same thing, looking for the same experience. The pastor did not shut the mess down. I wonder how many other believers (or worse yet, nonbelievers) were out there trying the same thing. "But they also teach the Gospel." I'm sorry guys, but the Jesus that is being taught is not the same Jesus of the Bible. I love Bill Johnson and all those in the movement. I think he is caught up in the old Latter Rain deception. When he says he wants the mantle of William Branham, he doesn't know what he's asking for. It's another spirit. Look at the history --- Dowey, Parham, Lake, Branham... there's something at the root of the Pentecostal/Charismatic that is off. I think our Christology is paramount to addressing our current conundrums. Our focus on Christ is the main thing I love about being a classic Pentecostal. However, when we get our focus off Jesus, we have the discernment of a cockroach. I love the gifts, but if Jesus isn't front and center... I'm outta here. Please keep the conversation going. This is so important. Thank you.
I understand your concern very well, I myself also come from a NAR background and have been deeply hurt by bad theology that lead to bad and unchristian practices. In that church I grew up in the hypercharismatic was the main focus and I experienced a lot of things there and came under a lot of questionable teaching (word of faith, prosperity gospel, going to heaven, NAR etc.). But coming out of that time and looking back I can clearly see, how some of the experiences that were most extravagant were real and were instrumental in grounding me in God and the love for Him. At one point I was caught up in "laughing in the spirit" for 1.5 hours and looking back I'm sure, that that experience build in me a closeness to God that helped me overcome the realization that I had come to the faith under pastors that were really seeking their own power. If I had thrown that out, I'm not sure if I had made it through that season unharmed, but as it is the whole thing only served to strengthen and reinforce my faith and love for God. The fruit of it was good. I think there is a very fine line in giving the Spirit the room to operate at will while at the same time identifying and removing demonic influences. Not everything that is weird is from the devil and not everything that seems charismatic is from God. We need to stay in the game to stay faithful and seek God earnestly in all that.
@@cirdan4170 thank you for sharing your story. I definitely think hearing different people's experiences is an important part of the process... at least for me. 👍
@@keithbryner40 I couldn't agree more! Thanks for hearing me :)
I also have a very similar experience to yours but all the way in Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺
Greetings!
Coming to faith in Christ in the 80’s in the AOG church (when they still preached the gospel every Sunday) was awesome but I could slowly see the progression of change amongst the organisation in Australia, first beginning with the influence of contemporary music and the insistence of “relevance”, secondly the increasing motivation for the “next big revival” (which we are all still waiting for) led the way for the influence of “new anointing” and every wave that would hopefully make its way down under.
From Rodney Howard Browns Holy Spirit bartender to the obscure John Crowder I’ve seen it all (my brother was a big fan of John Crowder).
Unfortunately, the more these manifestations took centre stage the more Christ finished work was preached less and less. Now it would be very very rare to walk in a Pentecostal or Charismatic church and even hear the gospel preached or the scriptures read and almost never exegeted.
About ten years ago I left the Pentecostal Charismatic Movement after reading Gods Generals by Roberts Lairdon. It’s was supposed to encourage me in the faith reading about these mighty men of God but that book troubled me a lot. As I looked into each “general” the more I looked into the history, the more I could see problems.
It’s not as a pretty a picture that is made out and is very very concerning. From Alexander Dowie (who started in Australia) to Smith Wigglesworth it is all very very problematic and continues to be.
"when we get our focus off Jesus, we have the discernment of a cockroach." That's brilliant
Since you guys are comparing Bethel to the church at Corinth, note that the church at Corinth repented when Paul corrected them (2 Cor. 7:9).
David committed terrible sins, but he repented.
I'll affirm Bethel when they repent of these things.
I was in a church that “did some good things” like you all said about Bethel. “They do some good things”. But the false doctrine the church I was in caused great spiritual harm to me and many others. People like me that left that church needed therapy. We had no intention of leaving the faith nor leaving God. Think of Christian Science for example. They “do some good things” but leave people and families devastated. The stories of friends of mine from the church I left are similar to someone leaving, say for example the Christian Science church or Mormonism or Amish etc. you are left feeling like you are leaving faith, walking away from God, walking away from people you love. You truly feel lost even though you still love God and his teachings. It’s a horrible, deeply painful experience.
Please consider the false teachings by Bethel, on the same level and leading to this type of damage and destruction. Please don’t equate what some would consider, (by a conservative and careful use of this word) a cult. The church I left is considered by many, who study cults, a cult. A cult does some good things too. Be more cautious and let Bethel off the hook when they start revising some terrible, damaging, false doctrines. I don’t think you understand the harm it causes people when they find out years later that a doctrine they were taught is true, they find out it is demonstrably scripturally untrue. They will feel they were lied to by close friends and spiritual leaders.
They will have great difficulty listening to and trusting any biblical teacher again. They may mistrust God because they put their faith in Him and he “let them” become deceived by what they believed and accepted as truth. They put their faith in a teaching which seemed to be sound and biblical. Now trust and faith in teachers, preachers, spiritual leaders is damaged.
You are taking this false teaching by Bethel TOO LIGHTLY
I’m not sure what denomination you came from, but how you describe what you felt when you left is such a similar experience as mine when I left the Pentecostal Church. I was so broken, but thankfully God was with me always and set me free!
I feel like my previous denomination distorted the Gospel, and so many other things about the Bible that I’m in a process of relearning everything - this channel is helping me in this.
I truly love the people I grew up with, yet I feel like I was let down in the most important way - the Bible and salvation. It was so harmful that I can’t even begin to describe what I went through for 25 years.
Thank you for your comment. 🙂
Same experience here. I came out of a very well known ministry school and was confused for almost 2 years. The Lord was so gracious to me in that season and still is, even though I kept Him at a distance. After leaving that school, I was hardly able to read my Bible, pray or even listen to worship. I received powerful deliverance from “false spirits” and the purity my relationship with Christ has before attending that school was restored. Everything wasn’t pure bliss after my deliverance but the demons tormenting me and keeping me confused were gone and I found myself in a place of surrender and trust again with the Lord. I am leaving SO MANY details out for brevity’s sake but what you experienced is very similar to my testimony from certain churches allowing new age and mixture in their doors. It needs to stop. It’s so damaging. I was rooted in the word and still fell into deception because this need to have some “encounter” is elevated above all else even discernment. You’re told not “to put God in a box.” TEST THE SPIRITS PEOPLE!!!
After my deliverance, I have led others from this ministry school in deliverance as well. The occult is infiltrating the church and it needs to be addressed. I’ve seen firsthand the damage it’s caused in my life and the lives of others. Many of my classmates aren’t even walking with the Lord anymore.
Word for word my testimony. This damaging heresy almost shipwrecked my faith. I had so much trouble trusting God, the word and even worship music after leaving a famous ministry school. I received deliverance from false spirits and have helped some former classmates get free too. There is witchcraft and occult practices being mixed in with the Holy Spirit and you’re told to just receive. Not to “put God in a box.” I raised questions on false spirits with my small group and was quickly shit down. No room for disagreement. Many classmates have left the faith and others have struggled since leaving school. We need to be very discerning and tests the spirits. Someone looks as if they need deliverance and we just yell, “more Lord, more!” After receiving freedom my eyes have been opened to just how much new age is seeping into the church. We need to be addressing it. Is SO damaging. Thanks for sharing. You’re spot on.
Yeah probably coz these 3 are from bethel?!
@@trulyso734they are not from bethel
Just want to thank you for your channel! It is so informative and gives such a deep understanding of different beliefs and it is absolutely appreciated. Thank you so much!
I have really learned so much from listening to this channel. I used to be a straight cessationist, but since I have been listening to people on this podcast and to my pastor, I have come to think that the gifts may exist today, and I am looking to visit a church where I can see things for myself (I attend a small Methodist church with a variety of beliefs but the United Methodist Church is cessationist in general.)
Good.
Good evening Ms Mcleod not sure where you are located but there’s a church that most of its history has been part of UMC and now Free Methodist but believes in the gifts Grace Fellowship in Katy TX
@@andreso9595 I don’t think I can make that commute from NC but I appreciate it! Maybe I will look around for a Free Methodist Church to visit.
If still looking, and near Winston-Salem, NC, try Overflow Church. Good people and the Spirit moves there.
Good discussion guys!
Blessed are those who have seen and believed. Even more blessed are those who have not seen and believe
If you guys at remnant radio read this, got a question: this bethel thing goes round and round and never seems to stop. You say you disagree, it is plain there are serious errors there which the leadership endorses. At what point would you say "enough is enough "? Surely at some stage you have to come to the point where you discontinue to associate with them as brothers in Christ. What is that line, and how many more times do you correct and warn etc and they still don't change. This is not a case of forgiving 70 x 7 times as Jesus said. This is a case of bringing the name of Jesus into disrepute and open to mockery. Ultimately the hope is that people repent but they won't unless they are treated as unbelievers. It's like doing tough love with an adult child.
That’s a hard question to answer. I think once we have seen that a movement is decidedly stepped away from core orthodox doctrines as laid out in the Nicene Creed or Apostles Creed then we can quickly affirm it as heretical. If the movement endorses & teaches the doctrines of the creed it is hard to call them heretical. I personally wouldn’t want my kids going to some of these churches but I can’t quite call them heretical. Also, there has to be room for repentance. Some of these churches have made some intentional language changes where their words seemed heretical and now are definitely orthodox.
Dear Remnant Radio
You guys have been instrumental to my healing from my pentecostal background. Your videos and seeing the experiences of others showed me that I'm not alone and God is still alive.
Thank you.
This show is so valuable. Please do not ever stop! It’s a true service to the body of Christ. I don’t necessarily agree with everything you fellas say, but I can affirm your honest hearts and it sure makes me assess thoroughly what I believe and why, plus, I’m learning a LOT! Bless you!
I would like a part three to this. Pretty much on the same page as you guys with everything y’all are saying about it, but was/am very unaware of teachings like these.
I found you guys after about 2 years of watching videos with christian content, mostly focused in theology and I have been pleasantly surprised with this podcast. I love it!!! I love how you strive to call out the gimmick that happens in the church sometimes and to be fair and respectful
Have you guys asked Elijah about The Physics of Heaven? That was written by people in his church, including Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton, and you're saying it has doctrines of demons.
Or The Passion Translation, since Bethel uses it and sells it?
I was wondering this exact same thing. Kris Vallotton even highly misappropriates Ephesians 3 to suggest these practices are the mysteries that Paul is talking about (when Paul clearly states that the “mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers so the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel”). Kris also suggests that to not pursue these practices would be risk less living.
The Bob Jones clip is from Bethel, and you can see both Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton laughing at the teaching.
Add the endorsement of The Passion Translation to the mix, and I just don’t understand how Bethel constantly gets a pass.
How can you be a prophet and not be able to teach or let alone understand scripture?
You can’t, it’s nonsense and the only dude won’t condemn it because there’s also some truths… well the devil and occult has some truths to it too but is deceptive so should we not dismiss it either cuz some good comes from the little truth or because they donate money?.?
Balanced, thoughtful and gracious handling of a difficult topic. Thanks guys ❤
Sometimes gentleman you just have to lay the axe to the tree. I have noticed this channels Achilles heel has always been approaching peripheral movements with kid gloves. You can come along side such movements like Bethel and look for common ground, but never call them out as 'brood of vipers of anything'. Do you think anyone will repent for the passion translation. Anyone at all ? Or so many of their offensive silly teachings. Perhaps this is how business is done . In case it's not clear, I speak of the leadership , not the sheep, who undoubtedly are untaught in even the basics of the faith. Anyway thx in general for a strong and worthwhile channel that is sorely needed. Just don't choke up excuses for people who aren't really with us.
I think we are doing our best to nuance. When you have a hammer it’s easy for everything to look like a nail. We don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water.
You do a great job
Part of the problem in all this is that action causes reaction. And the need to somehow manage to navigate the " the radical middle"- a high regard for scripture together with a recognition ( a really inadequate word to use,) of the currency of the miraculous for the church.
What beats me alltogether, is that the effectiveness of the 1st C church with minimal literature, and resources was so great.
If u want to understand a position opposing yours, you really need to understand the opposing view. Thats where we reach for the negative ephithets - and maybe we shouldnt rush there.
These discussions are never going to either be or give rise to" last word on" nor comprehensive views, but they really are useful to gaining understanding.
Good stuff. Thanks, guys! Well-balanced, well-reasoned, godly attitudes toward the many issues and controversies in the Church.
Hey guys, I really enjoyed this episode and hope you cover the other subjects mentioned in this video next week. Anyhow, I was wondering if you all would consider doing an episode on when you can't feel the presence of the Holy Spirit? As a believer, and servant of Jesus Christ, I've gone through several difficult seasons where I couldn't feel his presence. I always wondered why, however I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons. Just a thought, keep up the excellent work.
this has been so !eye opening. keep up the work guys!
Thank you so much, really appreciated this episode. Genuine question - if we are to have nuance when discussing churches like Bethel, how does that fit with Jesus teaching that we would know a tree by it's fruit? If some of the teaching is doctrines of demons and some truth how do we judge the fruit? Jesus seemed to say the tree would either be good or bad.
Bingo! You can't get bitter and sweet water from the same spring, so why should we accept doctrines of demons and some good doctrine from the same church? If I have to sort the good from the bad fruit, I am just going to move on from that tree.
Pastors are held to a higher standard! Much will be required at their hands. Be discerning and not condemning! 🙏
the Bob Jones clip made me physically sick. this was strictly the territory of pagans, wiccans, and new agers in the 1980's. now its in church?!? i guess i shouldn't be surprised. every other sin is welcomed with open arms.
Judging people’s fruit to know if they are genuine Christians is based on their character and their doctrine. If Jones has a big stain on his character (hopefully he really repented) and he was known to be an untrustworthy teacher (which is where his doctrine would come in)- Why would anyone with discernment trust Jones as a brother or as a prophet?
Even John Paul Jackson called Bob Jones out on teaching people to travel to heaven.
Could you rephrase your comment? I am German speaking what does this mean: call out so on teaching…? Did John Paul Jackson rebuke Jones?
@@grace4peace From my understanding “called out” means - rebuke.
Love it! Please do a video about the things you didn’t have time to cover.
Can you guys do a video on the Seer anointing
Awesome guys. Also can’t wait to watch the content with bancarz! But another video on the courts of heaven etc would be great!
Ahah this is the type of video I was looking for thank you!!
Only thing I would like to suggest and talk about is this restoration and repentance issue. While I would not like to see someone held back over sins, especially when they repent and are restored back to the Church. They have no authority to continue as leaders in the Church, none as far as Scripture goes. Scripture tells us that leaders must be trustworthy, and blameless before the Church etc. When leaders betray that trust they are not to be given leadership and yet I hear time and again that these leaders, who have done terrible things, come right back to a position that they held before. Have you done a show on this and what is the correct teaching from Scripture for this? Cheers
Ah wrote this before you started to talk about restoring to ministry.
There's a lot of abuse going on, and a lot of misogyny. ANYTHING can start out anointed and become defiled.
"...Therefore, Augustine said that the Christian ought to learn as much as he can about as many things as he can because all truth is God’s truth..." Quoted from R. C. Sproul article in Sept. 2023 --We have got to see false teachers and demonic doctrines exposed to guard the preciousness of knowing and walking in Truth. TY for your channel.
@Josh I love what you guys do and you have blessed my life so richly with what you all teach! I had a thought and figured I’d share/ask. I was wondering if you might consider closing out in prayer in your videos. There is so much power in prayer and I know that God uses prayer to align my heart with the truth I learn about. Thanks so much!
THIS IS SO GOOD. Also your directive at 58 minutes onward is 💯. Let’s do it.
We need another video. Please acknowledge that the evil have power. If those in the new age see Christians who are out of touch with the real power in the new age then they will discount us as being out of touch with everything. They cannot trust us if we do not speak truthfully about the real events happening in the new age and those new age practices in the Charismatic movement. Exodus 7:10-13 The Egyptian sorcerers also turned their rods into snakes and other bible passages point out that the evil do have power. The healings in Sedona (physics of heaven) are demonic but real - as in relief from pain inflicted by demons. Also, the "word of knowledge" from those with demonic influence is also very real and spot on. I have witnessed an evil (or new age) person having revelation and "insight" to things the person did off-site or spoke at home in private, we must acknowledge that. We need to give those in the new age movement the truth that our God is more powerful, kinder, more gentle, more loving and their true creator.
To speak to what Michael says around the 1:00:00 mark. If a person abuses their gifts and or position, then yes, they should be removed from the Church. If they repent, they should be restored to the Church, but they should never again be given a position of authority, or allowed to exercise those gifts. Michael says he doesn't want to be too dogmatic because he can't think of any Scriptures to support it, but I will point people to the fact that in the Old Testament, false prophets were meant to be cut off. Christ became the curse for us, so we can be forgiven, but if the Law teaches someone should have been cut off completely for being false prophets, then there's no restoring them to the position of prophet. We also have the qualifications for elders, that says they are to be blameless. Anyone who abuses their authority, is not blameless, no matter how much they repent. If elders must be blameless, then how much more so those who operate in the gifts of prophecy?
That is hilarious-Steven does not have the gift of succinctness! That’s okay, though, because everything he has to say is great.
"Tis the eye of childhood that fears a painted devil." - William Shakespeare
Also would love to hear what you all think about inner healing prayer. Would love a video on that. Thank you all 😃
It's a worthwhile conversation and I appreciate it.....my only concern is that no one gets it all right....no one....and fundamentalism and calvinism and modalism and catholicism and wesleyanism (my stream) can't all be right right nor are they all wrong.....heresy hunting can really be as damaging as any heresy.....we all believe error but we are not heretics,,,,,grace and love is the way forward...strange fire conferences are chilling and near blasphemous.....just don't go there
Please continue this topic next week!
Thanx, Gentlemen 🌹🌹🌹
Michael is spot on when addressing Matthew 18
Bob Jones is using known stage hypnosis techniques in what you showed. I have no doubt that the crowd "felt" they went to heaven.
Make no mistake, there were demons helping many to experience much ... the path of witchcraft is real and loaded with deception.
Not disagreeing but do you have a source for this?
Yes!! Totally agree!!
I know this is off the charismatic topic, however since you are discussing doctrines of demons. What are your thoughts about how Calvinism totally distorts the nature of God. I believe it is a doctrine of demons. It actually does distort the gospel. Would love to hear you guys really unpack that belief system scripturally. Thanks so much. I appreciate all three of you guys.
When I first heard Brian Simmons’ narrative on how the so-called Passion translation Bible came to be, it immediately reminded me of the Joseph Smith golden plate account. Complete with divine encounter and mandate, new revelation and authority; all the usual suspects. Truly, there is nothing new under the sun.
If someone is teaching doctrines of demons they should be exposed and disqualified to teach or prophesy, period. Bethel is a church that teaches doctrines of demons and should be avoided. Hopefully those that are in that church will study the Bible and flee that place. Bob Jones just used New Age ritual to empty your mind in order to have a supernatural experience at your own will. And he said don't pray which is our way of communicating with God. When I was in the New Age before getting saved, I tried to astral project by using this method. Thank God I never achieved that, I think even then God was protecting me, knowing I was coming to Him in the days to come. My sister was a medium, did automatic writing and we experienced many supernatural manifestations in our family. All my family got saved and I am so grateful to the Lord for his mercy and grace. After I got saved I learned about deliverance and got delivered and was then used in the deliverance ministry for a time. At one time I followed some of these prophets like Rick Joyner, Cindy Jacobs, but it didn't take long to recognize that they were off.
I. Have a problem with Clueless Critics comparing the gift of tongue's with the kunalini spirit Cult. It's what the bible calls blaspheming the holy spirit.
Thank you for your teaching, I will change my ways.
I want to say Thankyou to Michael Miller specifically for your contributions. .
What about a doctrine of demons not just in charismatic but in the cessationist side as well
is it "demonizing" Bethel to point out they preach a different Gospel, and Bill Johnson is a false teacher and false apostle? Or is that what scripture teaches disciples of Jesus to do in love. It is not loving to say that because they do some good things, we can ignore the false doctrine they teach?
Yes. Pray in the Spirit AND with your understanding
I gotta say Michael Roundtree thanks for saying it out loud about the easy restoration to « ministry »of those who have marketable gifts… I think that kind of restoration is truly only about marketing. Consciously or not
Thank you so much for your important ministry!! I think the qualifications prescribed by Paul in I and II Timothy lend great authority to re- installation of teachers and elders/pastors after sexual sin while shepherding the church. I agree with Roundtree that while they can repent and be restored back into church fellowship, they do not qualify under leadership according to these passages.
You guys are sweet, but when you say " they are our Christian brothers..." here is jezebel, and the charismatic response: shes got some bad doctrine, but some good things are happening. " jezebel teaches fornication, but we just need to put sex in its proper context. Sex is a gift from God--we just need to properly contextualize her teaching." Charismatic theology is consistently a bag of snakes, especially Bethel. God says walk away. Condemn it, and walk away. Christ condemns it, and if he spews it out, stop gargling with it.
Really appreciate discussions like these. Not easy to have, but much needed in our church today. Any chance you guys might be getting Lindsay Davis on the show at some point?
Thank you for this convo. Its really important! 32:01 the CC says Josh is saying the Lords name in vain. Not sure if you can fix that, but wanted to make you aware of it. I'm sure he is saying Oh my gosh, but the translation is off.....
Thank you so very much 🙏😊! I have to write in Swedish🙈😉. En av de ABSOLUT bästa kanaler jag stött på👍😊!! Jag är en "old lady" 😉😆, bor i Sverige och jag måste säga att det finns inte många "kyrkor" att välja på och traditionen är väldigt utbredd och förankrad bland både människor och samfund. Det är extremt svårt att få svar på "djupare" frågor, likadant när det kommer till biblestudier. Vi har inte ens så många studier. Jag vill absolut inte "klaga på" eller vara respektlös mot svenska kyrkan eller de som arbetar där. Jag saknar gemenskap, samtal och studier med fokus på tro och skriften. SÅ, tack så enormt mycket för vad ni och många med er😊👍💖! Vill också tillägga att väldigt många söker sig till new age istället. Jag hoppas att någon/några tar sig tid att läsa det här och hör att jag ber om böner och likaså tips om vad jag kan göra själv. Helt enkelt, be för oss här i Sverige och kom med tips😊. Kan tillägga att jag redan har åkt ut ur en "frikyrka" för att jag frågade "för mycket"😉. Gud välsigne er🙏❤. Vill också be om böner för vad som pågår här i Europa nu😢💔. Jag bor som sagt i Sverige och har inte så "långt" till olika gränser där jag skulle vilja hjälpa till eller på annat sätt hjälpa till, men eftersom jag har problem med att gå (egentligen kroppen överlag) så kommer jag inte så långt och det är ENORMT FRUSTRERADE🤯😭. BLESSINGS TO ALL OF YOU🙏❤!
I know y’all have t shirts but do y’all have stickers as well? Would love to rep yall in school 😃
How often have you ever heard somebody in a congregation shut down a service seriously I mean I'm there people to walk out but I've never seen anybody say preacher you're wrong or the speaker being wrong they usually just walk out
Thank you for the video... to MICHEAL ROUNDTREE- QUESTION? "Maybe I need more grace" was the comment you had for Bob Jones in which you believed you had no scripture to support your position... what's your insight into Hebrews 6:1-4... again thank you for the ministry... May the Hand of the Lord be upon Remnant and all yours...
There are wolves within the church body. When the Lord exposes them it is up to leadership to address it. If someone uses the gifts to profit or harm others those who are over that individual must address it. Not look the other way. Oh Bob he is just being Bob he has done a lot of good things, prophesied in the name of Jesus. Jesus speaks of this ““Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?”
Matthew 7:15-16 NIV discernment has been lacking definitely in the church, but accountability also has also. We are to go to the person sinning and speak to them with correction from love. But that’s the time that their character needs to be look at by the church. To many people in leadership get slapped on hand and allowed to continue in that role cause more trauma to the body
All you need is to ask God for discernment, wise as serpents, harmless as doves, read your bible, study it and the holy spirit will soon show you when someone is telling you "porky Pies "
These false teachers are wolves in sheeps clothing.
Some even occultic.
Be sure they will leave you open to being oppressed by demons.
I have a question and this is related to the relationship between exegesis and prophecy. I know this is not probably related to the discussion but I am hoping to get your thoughts.
I have listened twice to your gnosticizing of scripture episode and I have a question that has been on my mind. Was Paul and exegete in the way we define exegesis now?
Is there a way in which you can prophetically read scripture and is there such a thing as that?
GK Beale does a good job of answering this. Check out his book on interpretation of scripture.
@@michaelmiller5024 thanks
Guys, wake up. God hates mixture(Deuteronomy, 22:9-11). The very fact that these videos are still available on Bethel‘s website would have to lead one to believe that they have no intention of repenting of these practices. Yes, they speak a lot of truth, but that only makes the lies that much more powerful. I’m not willing to say that they are doing all of this intentionally but the bottom line is, one cannot listen to their teachings, without hearing the lies along with the truth.
A very helpful discussion.
So good brothers!!
Good Word guys
Charismaticism seems to me to be so obviously an error, I cannot figure out why it is defended. Luther had it right when he called such folks Enthusiasts; i.e., those who thought they had God so much within them, the External Word became subordinated to their internal intimations. That this question recurs, "Is this Enthusiastic group a demon?" speaks for itself, really.
Thank you brothers
I am a Patreon payer I want your show to be heard by many people
Thank God for the passion translation! Amplified Classic! Etc. I noticed that There is no pushback on the message… maybe the way the passion is worded really expounds on the truth! People are always looking for loopholes and hide in the theology that serves them…
Arguments don’t win people to Christ
"Wrong doctrine" is that doctrine we don't like or disagree with.
We all sin and come short ... but, if we purpose in our heart to sin it takes on a whole new meaning! Don't you think?
It’s cool that I was just thinking about this earlier and I came across this video. Thanks! ❤️🔥🙏
Continue on this subject and then sometime do an episode on the religious spirit.but I feel there is much more to be discussed on this loaded topic that is essential for the life of all spirit filled believers especially those who are young and/or weaker in their Faith...idk..jus my opinion.GOD BLESS!!!
Please do a follow up next week
The Doctrine of ‘Cessationism’ is from Demons!!! Let’s discuss this terrible doctrine instead of the charismatic doctrines and manifestations that people who will not even embrace the ministry of the Holy Spirit cannot understand. Because, they are spiritually discerned!
Please! Where are those who actually have experience in the gifts of the spirit? Bring those people on your show.
Thanks
In Corinth, they practiced all kinds of sins, but they did not teach demonic doctrines, and then they also responded to Paul's admonition and repented. Bethel teaches demonic doctrines and does not repent. For example, the book "Physics of Heaven" produced by Bethel. It is a book that reflects their beliefs, and the book is full of witchcraft and esotericism, "supported" by pseudoscience. Do you think "The Passion" is a Bible? It's even worse than the Jehovah's Witness "Bible". And yet they use it. There are tons of information about the false teachings of Bethel, where they stick to it and do not repent.
Almost impossible to compare.
What demonic doctrines do they teach? Can you give an example?
@@davidvia6897 Is this a serious question? Are you not familiar with the book "Physics of Heaven" produced by Bethel? It is a book that reflects their beliefs, and the book is full of witchcraft and esotericism, "supported" with pseudoscience. Do you think "The Passion" is a Bible? It's even worse than the Jehovah's Witness "Bible". And yet they use it. There are tons of information on the false teachings of Bethel. Seek and ye shall find. Blessings.
@@davidvia6897 Is this a serious question? Are you not familiar with the book "Physics of Heaven" produced by Bethel? It is a book that reflects their beliefs, and the book is full of witchcraft and esotericism, "supported" with pseudoscience. Do you think "The Passion" is a Bible? It's even worse than the Jehovah's Witness "Bible". And yet they use it. There are tons of information on the false teachings of Bethel. Seek and ye shall find. Blessings.
I appreciate you guys& what your doing. Please take a breath & pause in your speech instead of Saying “UGH & UGHM” for almost every other word. I want this to edify you all in Hopes of reaching more people with This Awesome Channel. Much love & May our father in Heaven Bless You All!!!
🙈🙉🙊
Can you point to some specific verses in the Passion Translation that are inaccurate?
Hey guys love your channel. Question ? When it comes down to False Doctrine, what do you think about all the many religions such as: Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, Seven Day Adventist and many others. With so many do you think this would change doctrine with so many different views. I have a question here ? When God created the very first man ( Adam ) what religion was he ? Appears to me that he simply had a relationship with God!! Even Jesus mentioned to the disciples….follow me!! How do you see this ?
what is the difference between possession and oppression? When being a participant in a deliverance session is imperative to totally trust the leader? can you go through a deliverance session?
I love what you do!
If Bob Jones shouldn't have been restored to teach because of what he did, shouldn't John Gray be removed from being a pastor at Relentless Church for what he has done? (twice apparently)
What did John Gray do?
Absolutely, no leader who have failed terribly like these two & ors should be restored to leading positions. We should still have fellowship with them once repented and restored to the faith.
Ken Fish spoke about Bob Jones and the Brownsville Revival on his Orbis ministries app, is this the same Bob Jones? If so, what happened?
In a bit of opposite direction,have you done a program on the Orthodox study Bible and the departure of many charismatic and evangelicals to Eastern Orthodoxy?also discuss it with knowledge able person involved or Orthodox cleric?
It’s a real shame, their doctrine definitely falls into doctrines of demons. Our weak emphasis on teaching core biblical doctrine to everyone is allowing them to swoop in with powerful rhetoric and deceive many.
To understand their doctrine especially put into Protestant terms I would check out their confession of Dositheus there is an English translation and they straight up explain how we are saved by works
Bethel is teaching this in kids' church. They get the children to draw what they saw in heaven. How can they lead children astray like that?
The original source of the "stillness of mind" teaching comes from Mark Virkler... He began talking about "How to hear God's voice" - 4 steps in the 1970s and has influenced many . Tracing that connection links many.
This method is hugely in contrast to the Biblical approach of hearing God from Dallas Willard (E Stanley Jones FB Meyer).
The influence of Mark Virkler is wide.
Pretrib rapture is an example. There are no passages in context that actually teach it. Rather, it's a fantasy idea brought to each text and assumed upon it.
There are different attachments and entities, as well as straight up entities in your body.
Greetings from Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺
Great content fellas, it’s very important work you do. Primary doctrines are important to get right that’s why I was surprised in the last episode on this topic that it was mentioned that Charles Finney was orthodox in his teaching. Unfortunately what he taught was far from orthodox as he was full Pelagian which, as you know, was condemned in the early church as heretical. His teaching on justification and the atonement is also unbiblical.
Anyway, great content on this episode and an excellent balanced approach to calling out some perceived errors in the “charismatic”church. Keep up this important work.
Also can you please do some episodes on the “Lakeland revival “ and especially talk about the “apostolic commissioning” of Todd Bentley and the myriad of utterances utterances spoken that night by the “elite”apostles days prior to the whole ministry falling apart. I think that discussion would be fantastic and important to the body of Christ.
All the best and keep up this good work.
Andrew.
Good comments. Here's what Peter Wagner said that night, "I take the apostolic authority that God has given me and I decree to Todd Bentley, your power will increase, your authority will increase, your favor will increase, your influence will increase, your revelation will increase ... God will pour out a higher level of discernment to distinguish truth from error." Wagner was joined by Bill Johnson, John Arnott, Rick Joyner, Che Ahn, etc. And a few weeks later, the discernment of truth was indeed increased as God revealed to the world via God TV that Todd was in adulterous relationship and was lying about most of what we saw on TV. Not a single major miracle could be confirmed by Charisma magazines on-site investigation, led by Lee Grady. Dozens of supposed people raised from the dead were lies. God shouted Todd and the apostles sins from the rooftops. They weren't operating in the power of the Spirit at all. Not one of those prophets knew Todd was in such serious sin or was on the edge of crashing and burning. Shame on them all.
Thank you. Enjoying the topic and the show.
I do enjoy going through apocrypha books, maybe only audio,
I hope that the holy spirit will guide me through apocryphas , by reminding me what will be spiritually edifying and helpful, and not the rest. I'm sure there are attacks on God's word.
Considering the warning in revelation about changing scripture.
I'm sure scriptures has been hijacked for political or other intensions.
Something like amplified or heaven or hell visitation, I eventually lost interest, but Enoch I ignored at first, but then later started to pay more attention due to it's gospel supporting views.
Also heard the other day, Enoch had importance in the very early church before the book of revelation was (written revealed to John) Also as the gospels were starting to be written down.
Am I wrong?
If The Passion Bible adds to scripture, the what does The Chosen do?... just a thought
Just an FYI, Bible Gateway hasn't removed the Passion translation.
Brothers in Christ please address how you can add Doug poop to brownies and it not effect the brownies. Ref. To Bethel.
Read "God's Rivals: Why Has God Allowed Different Religions" by Gerry McDermott. Referenced by Michael Heiser. Provides such good insight.
Thank you for the reference….
Where did the label Charismatics come from?
How do you define Charismatics?
Have you guys looked at some of the teachings of Dan McCollum ?
I say this in all love but you guys go off on some tangents that have been covered in past episodes multiple times. Love the content and the ministry but please get through what you guys are wanting to cover on these specific episodes. Blessings.
What kind of example is set for the Body of Christ when a leader is restored to ministry who has been sexually immoral on an ongoing basis? Don’t we have the grace of God to walk in obedience? (Rom 1:5)
How does then TPT and that controversy as well as the message ?