Dude as much as this video is great. Here's the thing. It's not us here in the West that needs convincing. It's the JP publishers. You see how they just brushed off the talk regarding Rollback Netcode during their Roundtable? It's disgusting. I would suggest actually putting up Japanese CC for this video and then tag them. They need to wake up NOW.
i spent a while playing skullgirls and tfh, had a great time, then went back to tekken and it's actually ridiculous how bad it feels. from the us, i could play skullgirls vs someone in eu with 2f delay no problem. i cant play tekken with my friends in the same *city* without awful stuttering and input lag.
There is no excuse a bajillion dollar company cant make proper netcode when some dude in his room can reverse engineer a gamecube game to add rollback by himself.
@@0Enigmatic0 Why do people brag about the end result when it took 6 months and a full time dedication that the person had to quit their job. Not to mention it was a team. Dunno why people keep saying one single person. Lmao
@@yomamapkme it will (but this isnt an excuse to use wi fi) the more tolerable the netcode is more matches with not so fast internet you can get(like 120 to 150ms)
Can I just say that man is a fucking 'G for making it free under MIT? Imagine making such an incredibly useful, innovative and game-changing netcode and going "Here you go guys, just take it". Man changed how nearly all of us play our fighting games today (and actually makes it all the more hilariously bad that Smash Ultimate still doesn't have roll back).
@@cooltwittertagHe's making them look like assholes, and dismantled their entire reason for existing by outdoing them. Sure, they might not have registered the harm, but that's just because they're shortsighted morons.
This will make my life so much easier when explaining this to people. The fact you managed to make it make sense in less than 10 minutes with time to spare is blowing my mind.
@Manek Iridius Yes, some stuff is still dropped, but the point is that synchronizing things via rollback causes the game to differ from a perfect connection only in brief moments where it isn’t that important, while delay based net code causes a desynchronization between inputs and in-game actions that is far more disruptive to gameplay even with small amounts of delay.
Crazy how this concept seemingly comes from how you would actually predict your opponent's moves in real life, by assuming they are gonna keep doing whatever they are doing until your brain actually "registers" the shift in motion a split second right after the move is made. Which is why the reason why it feels much better and more natural than delay netcode.
@@CrossoverGameReviews idk man, I think they're choosing to ignore it. Maybe they're all waiting to see how Guilty Gear Strive performs before going all in with Rollback.
Now we've got a rollback crusader video with Core A production values. Fantastic. Also thanks to all the gg fans shouting so loudly that ArcSys decided to take the plunge and add rollback to strive.
Great job on the video! The other thing we did on Killer Instinct was also make sure the general input lag (button press to visual change) was as low as possible in addition to the rollback code.
Excellent video Gerald (and thanks for linking my rollback article)! Wanted to add 2 points to even further strengthen the argument for rollback: 1) Even if you live near your opponent, delay-based netcode doesn't work very well because the internet frequently delivers packets inconsistently (especially on WiFi). Rollback is very good at handling subtle moments of packet loss or ping spikes, even if your overall connection is fast and your opponent is close. It's this *consistency* that is rollback's biggest strength and it's why we need it for all games, even if we don't plan on playing over long distances. 2) Combining rollback with some initial delay at the start is much better than delay by itself, because the chosen delay remains consistent and unchanged in the hybrid approach, as opposed to the input delay constantly fluctuating with the connection quality in the pure delay approach. Again, it shows that consistency is the main benefit of rollback -- any uncertainty created by the network is instead handled through the prediction algorithms and occasional rollbacks, instead of forcing the user to feel the effects and undermine their strategy.
@@alexanderespinoza The whole peguin meme was a reaction on how european tournaments tended to be underrepresented in official rankings, when Leffen brought that to people's attention, a now famous reply said something among the lines of "If we are going to consider results from europe in our rankings we may as well consider ranking penguins from antarctica"
So DSP just reacted to this and basically had an aneurysm trying to explain why you're wrong and Rollback is bad. Twas funny seeing him try to cope his way out of seeing evidence right on his screen.
no you dont understand, the FGC illuminati is doing brain manipulation on us all to think DSP is the crazy one, thats why capcom keeps lowering his mr off screen
Came here 2 minutes after the vid was published. There are so many comments already that nobody is gonna read this anyway. This tells you all you need to know about the quality of Core-A Gaming content. You are the best! And yes...make netcode a priority. It's borderline embarassing compared to other genres by now.
I have a match in Fantasy Strike with someone across the globe, like literally on the other side of the Earth (SEA to USA). Yet, the match feels like offline. Rollback is magic
@@Apsandman On the bright side though, nowadays rollback is talked about more constantly, awareness that it exists is more widespread, and people demand it more from companies, just a few years ago it wasn't talked nearly as much, so at least there's more awareness now.
I don't see any ping difference between a good WiFi card (AX200 or a midrange smartphone in tether mode) on a 5GHz connection vs Ethernet. Wi-Fi is fine if you have modern (designed newer than 2015) equipment.
Another thing I think is (mildly) important to consider is the fact that bad delay-based netcode and bad rollback have completely different effects. Bad DBN is just frustrating, while bad rollback can at least be somewhat amusing in how ridiculous it looks.
This is probably the fastest the channel has uploaded in a while! Also, this is really convenient for me since rollback is a concept I wanted to explain to someone but couldn't.
BTW, Fighting Ex Layer got rollback implemented recently. So to any one reading this, I strongly urge you to try it out, especially if you like oldschool fighters.
I bought the game two days ago. I live in Southeast Asia and i can’t believe i can play against players from UK, Netherland, and even USA without lag! Well there’s some matches with lag but it still tolerable. Meanwhile games like T7, SC6, SFV, Samsho, or KOF XIV are lags like hell even if you play with your local players :/
I jumped back to playing the game. The matches were lag free and I was finding matches every 15-30 seconds. If a small company like Arika can fix their netcode then Capcom and Bandai Namco have no excuse.
When I played some GG Strive from eastern US with a friend in Argentina, that's when I really started to appreciate rollback netcode. The only side effect I noticed the entire time was noticeable rollback when they jumped a couple times, but it was seriously impressive compared to Ultimate where the same connection had a full quarter second of input delay.
I absolutely lost my mind playing SF4 and UMvC3 for years then buying KI on release and hearing my opponent's british accent. It was fucking butter smooth. I played SF3soe too but only with friends so I didnt notice it.
I never cared about rollback and even got annoyed with people complaining about lack of rollback... until I started dating someone who lives nearly 5 thousand miles away from me. Now rollback is my new god
I WORKED WITH Tony back in the day! Omg how time flies by. Tony truly had a mind set for future play. First told me about it in 2007. My goodness... 14 years ago.
@@Inriri To be fair, Mario Kart Rollback is really easy. If theres lag, then just hold their current inputs. As soon as lag is over, then just roll it back. But for Arms... I don't understand why they put any effort into that game's online.
It's probably due to corporate demands. The same reason why an entry level job offer will require "10+ years of experience." Companies want to save money, and the guys on top running the business and who don't understand much about the nature of the product they're creating don't want to spend more getting employees who know how to implement proper rollback. Business executives are notoriously cheapskates and likely don't see the benefit of improving a game's online experience if the player numbers and sales remain stable. In other words, it's corporate ignorance.
It's those first too letters of your post that keep it from already being a thing in fighting games. It's a standard feature in American developed fighting games. Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat X & 11, Injustice 2 and a ton of indy games have rollback.
Please, please, please speak up about it. If the JP devs won't listen to us maybe they will listen to the JP core audience. I can only dream of the day where KOF and Samurai Showdown have rollback, and living outside the USA only makes netcode worse
1:30 is one of the reasons I love your videos, makoto's theme is straight fire and it always fits nature of the content you provide... Please never change it lol
That 100ms of input lag effects a small portion of the smash community. Smash is meant to be a party game evidenced by items, wacky and unique stages, and a more simple fighting game that almost everyone can pick up and play. Not many people will ever notice the 100ms delay or ever will
@@lumnary7635 It's a party game that has fighting game DNA and therefore has a very high skill ceiling for the players that want to play to challenge themselves. Those players will notice and feel the delay.
I swear after the round table, not 2 days ago I watched Code Mystic's video on how rollback and input delay work. I immediately thought this would be a great video topic for Core-A to go in-depth into and whaddaya know. A video on exactly that comes out. Great as always!
The fact that we can have rollback in melee which definitely has the most insane input strings in fighting games and it still feels super super smooth despite the amount of 1-2 frame moves like shine and jabs being so heavily used is a testament to how amazing this is and if the melee community can do it for such a crazy high input game then capcom really needs to get on the wagon.
Wow this was awesome! Well explained and demonstrated/visualized, just the thing I needed! I'm just getting into fighting games, and these types of videos are just what I need to quickly learn all the ins and outs, makes learning a lot more efficient and allows my monkey brain to process and store all this info. I can see your passion show in this 1 video alone, so I will definitely be binging the rest of your videos! You earned a sub with this one mate, it must have been hard work just to make this short explainer video, I know a lot of people don't realise just how much work something like this takes, with all the graphics and demo reels that are needed. Also, putting the sponsor at the end is a welcome change from having it shoved in my face in the first 30 seconds. All around, well done and keep up the good work!
As a developer of a multiplayer game using rollback (and a big fan of the channel) this is the most approachable and informative introduction to rollback that I've seen. The animations are awesome too. Great job!
Hey Core-A, you'll probably never read this, but I was watching your "consequences of lowering the skill gap" video. I was wondering, could you do a video about "the consequences of RAISING the skill gap"? Some games like For Honor are experiencing that now, and the social aspect surrounding it is fascinatingly frustrating.
Thank you so much for helping me understand this!!!! I hear my friends and other FG youtubers talk about rollback and I never knew what it was or they just explained it really poorly. Keep it up Core-A 👍
Really like the short and frequent content mixed in with the long form. You guys do good work. And it’s wholesome. Which is why I watch. I barely play fighting games. Keep it up!
I was playing granblue with a friend, and when I got up to use the restroom he changed my controller input delay to 10 frames, and it took me a while to notice because I'm used to shitty connections.
was watching this on some site, but came to youtube so I could like because this video quality and examples are like.........the best I've ever seen on any explanation of anything lol
Going back to this video weeks after Tekken 8's release. The efforts people have done to try to spread the good word of Rollback will never be forgotten. Now to enjoy this video again~
I think you need to take a look at the source code for Quake 3 Arena (Q3A) before you attribute latency compensation to Tony Cannon. Q3A came out in 1999 and the source code was released in 2005. It had all of the netcode features you've described. Q3A would predict where a player is going to be based on their last inputs just like you've described here. If they were last know to be running forward, it would assume they were still running forward. It would also snap players to their correct location when a network message came through to show that their input had changed and the predicted location was wrong. Furthermore, there was "rollback" on attacks in the game as well. If a player fired a rocket 45 ms ago and you just learned about it, your game would show the rocket as if it had been in flight for 45 ms already. I'd have to go back and check to see if it rolled back animation as well (player animation is much less important in a FPS than a fighting game, so it may not have). You could also dial in your input delay in ms instead of frames (like GGPO frame delay). Q3A didn't try to negotiate "rift" -- but that's because the game had a variable framerate (in-game time isn't based on frames), so rift didn't exist. Someone running the game at 15 fps could connect and play against someone running at 125 fps without any issues.
I was going to mention this. Also Unreal Tournament 99 had a community-developed netcode called "zeroping" and another called "newnet" which added all these features back in 2002 (maybe earlier). If you look at the Unrealscript files included with the game you can see that the game had been designed with rollback in mind although it wasn't fully implemented at release. The great thing about Unreal is that when you connect to a zeroping or newnet server, it automatically updates netcode and implements it for you. You don't need to install or anything at all to use it.
This going to sound crazy but hear me out, I've noticed some devs are reluctant to implement Rollback because they have an agenda to the casual playerbase. I noticed Rollback is implemented in most often aggressive games which have more actions going on to predict for RB, which I feel like protects the wifi player because they'll attempt to be sneaky/mash. Slow reactionary footsie games (The ones that matter, not counting Punch Planet) don't have it still to protect wifi players because according to Harada, Tekken's playerbase is 50% wifi. Probably like that for a lot of FGs which harms the ladder experience for otherwise decent players.
4:50 in the league fighting game ekko as a dose a frame 1 teleport every combo… this man real told people what not to do and then just did it what a mad lad
The biggest issue with rollback netcode is grabs. Let's say your opponent is walking forward and you grab him, but then he rollbacks to a jumping state. What happens to your character? The ideal situation would be that your character goes immediately back to idle animation so you can block or counter the aerial. But in 99% of games with rollback, thanks to developer incompetence, your character does the "got his grab parried" animation. You got punished for successfully grabbing an opponent. This is especially damning with p2p, where the opponent can just modify the information they're sending with third party tools, or even use lag switches.
I've been messing around with reaction time stuff and my average is about 13.2 frames for conditioned things, considering 3 frames is a decent connection on delay-based that goes to 16.2 frames at best. Ryu's forward strong is 14 frames in Third Strike, and some of the stuff I've read puts the limits of human reactions at about 12 frames so even a perfect human can't block that overhead on 3f delay, and it's likely impossible for me normally considering that's 1.2 frames at best to move my hand from 1 to 4 assuming I react perfectly. The point in this example is while it may be extremely unlikely and difficult to block that overhead on reaction it's still possible with practice especially if you're looking for it but online it's just not possible ever. Great work as always
Imagine the revitalization of scenes that have died because of lack of competition. Those small niche communities would then have a way to connect with each other. Or take a huge fighting game like DBFZ and implement GGPO plus cross platform 😩 god the future of fighting games is looking bright
Excellent video. I know this is a little late, but I just wanted you say you forgot another nice thing about rollback netcode : sometimes, even if your prediction is incorrect, it still might not matter. Imagine you're playing this character that has a 5-second true combo or something. You start it on a blocking opponent by command grabbing. The game saw your opponent was blocking, so it predicts that your opponent will continue blocking. Let's say your opponent stops blocking and just starts button mashing out of frustration in the duration of the 5-second combo. Your copy of the game gets these new inputs, and resimulates the game from the last received input up until the current frame where he's button mashing - but it doesn't matter! Since your opponent is in hit stun throughout the combat, none of his inputs matter, so even though your prediction of his input was incorrect, your mispredicting game is still matched up with his, and nothing has to be rolled back. If your game's misprediction of your opponent's input happened during startup lag, active frames, hit stop, end lag, hit stun, block stun, the intro animations at the beginning of the match (so annoying how delay based games can lag/stutter during that...), or basically any moment of the game where your opponent's inputs don't matter, then it still does not have to rollback. That's one of the main selling points of rollback netcode. It hides your network lag in the inherent lag of fighting games.
Hope you guys find this video useful! Rollback netcode is not the future, it's now. Fighting games without it are behind.
Sad smash ultimate noises
It was foretold: ruclips.net/video/VsMy7lJ1CWk/видео.html
sad bbtag noises
Dude as much as this video is great. Here's the thing. It's not us here in the West that needs convincing. It's the JP publishers. You see how they just brushed off the talk regarding Rollback Netcode during their Roundtable? It's disgusting.
I would suggest actually putting up Japanese CC for this video and then tag them. They need to wake up NOW.
I'm just surprised you made the smash antarctica region reference.
Rollback Netcode is one of those things people don't notice or care when they have it, but they FEEL a difference when they don't.
You never know how good things really are until they're suddenly worse
So it's like the rhythm in Jackie Chan fights.
i spent a while playing skullgirls and tfh, had a great time, then went back to tekken and it's actually ridiculous how bad it feels. from the us, i could play skullgirls vs someone in eu with 2f delay no problem. i cant play tekken with my friends in the same *city* without awful stuttering and input lag.
olivia like just a couple kilos already lag :,)))))
No I notice and I appreciate it every time I boot up skullgirls.
I love how Melee's fan-made online is leagues ahead of Nintendo's for Ultimate.
There is no excuse a bajillion dollar company cant make proper netcode when some dude in his room can reverse engineer a gamecube game to add rollback by himself.
@@0Enigmatic0 Why do people brag about the end result when it took 6 months and a full time dedication that the person had to quit their job.
Not to mention it was a team. Dunno why people keep saying one single person.
Lmao
@@rayminishi689 The point is fans with vastly less resources made a better online experience than a multi-billion dollar company
Tyler Cloke I did the exact same thing lol
@@rayminishi689 it was mostly Fizzi with a bit of help from UnclePunch on the ASM side and I provided some testing and feedback.
One of my first matches in Punch Planet was Midwest US to Central Europe and I honestly had no idea until my opponent told me afterwards
I just tried Fantasy Strike and am now sad DBFZ doesn't have it
You and Core A are my favorite fighting game youtubers. Keep it up!
jmcrofts in da house!!!!!!!! 📢
Nice
:0
Appreciate you for this one Gerald! Thanks for spreading the good word
You inspired it when we talked after the interview we did!
Core-A Gaming is god
Unofficial ambassador for Rollbackia
Praise rollbackia
Nintendo: I’m gonna pretend I never saw that
Every Japanese company does this, they obviously would not use something that was made by filthy gaijins (foreigners). Its stupid.
@@hamishmacdonald8593 they have rollback netcode? Always seemed like delay netcode whenever I face Ganons
@@hamishmacdonald8593 Ultimate doesnt have any roll back. Just delay based with extreme, fluctuating delay
@@RaynbowDeath It's developed by Bandai Namco. So if Harada and Tekken are any indicator, it's 3.
Arms and Mario Kart 8 have rollback, actually.
Smash is developed by Bamco
More rollback netcode NEEDS to be implemented to help all the red bar penguins out there.
If someone is using wifi, rollback is not going to help them at all lol.
@@yomamapkme it will (but this isnt an excuse to use wi fi) the more tolerable the netcode is more matches with not so fast internet you can get(like 120 to 150ms)
The problem with wi fi is the connection spykes that happens at anytime (in a good wifi example)
Yomamapkme 5GHz exists
@@denebu tell me more about that
Can I just say that man is a fucking 'G for making it free under MIT? Imagine making such an incredibly useful, innovative and game-changing netcode and going "Here you go guys, just take it". Man changed how nearly all of us play our fighting games today (and actually makes it all the more hilariously bad that Smash Ultimate still doesn't have roll back).
It would be sick if someone could implement it, the same as slippi for melee
Absolutely.
We need more people like him to stick it to corporations by doing things for the betterment of mankind.
bro probably played one laggy game too many
@@nemtudom5074he didnt stick it to anyone, he donated it to them
@@cooltwittertagHe's making them look like assholes, and dismantled their entire reason for existing by outdoing them. Sure, they might not have registered the harm, but that's just because they're shortsighted morons.
This will make my life so much easier when explaining this to people. The fact you managed to make it make sense in less than 10 minutes with time to spare is blowing my mind.
@Manek Iridius Yes, some stuff is still dropped, but the point is that synchronizing things via rollback causes the game to differ from a perfect connection only in brief moments where it isn’t that important, while delay based net code causes a desynchronization between inputs and in-game actions that is far more disruptive to gameplay even with small amounts of delay.
And yet I still see people arguing against rollback lmao
Crazy how this concept seemingly comes from how you would actually predict your opponent's moves in real life, by assuming they are gonna keep doing whatever they are doing until your brain actually "registers" the shift in motion a split second right after the move is made. Which is why the reason why it feels much better and more natural than delay netcode.
Someone needs to send this to our favorite Japanese fighting game developers.
Someone’s gotta translate this in Japanese to them first
To think they just had a roundtable meeting not too long ago, but they didn't discuss this. Oh yeah, they need to know!
@@CrossoverGameReviews idk man, I think they're choosing to ignore it.
Maybe they're all waiting to see how Guilty Gear Strive performs before going all in with Rollback.
Smash bros
apparently snk got the message
"Even Melee has rollback now!"
whoa really? That's so cool! I can't wait to watch online tournments with that helpful modification
😔
;;
spoiler alert: this already fucked up joke got even worse somehow
fuck nintendo
😔
Now we've got a rollback crusader video with Core A production values. Fantastic.
Also thanks to all the gg fans shouting so loudly that ArcSys decided to take the plunge and add rollback to strive.
WAIT WHAT, THEY DID??
@@TheExFatal yes it was announced right before the Beta of Strive. Just that the beta didnt have it because it wasnt finished.
Arc System have been on a roll lately. Cant wait to get GG Strive on PS5.
Strive has rollback?! Oh lawd if they add cross-play it'd become THE fighting game of next-gen.
GGXXAC+R in the distance:
Great job on the video! The other thing we did on Killer Instinct was also make sure the general input lag (button press to visual change) was as low as possible in addition to the rollback code.
yall did a killer job on that game and its netcode!
Nice!
Get someone to translate this IMMEDIATELY
Also I’m loving the increasing rate of content
Facts
Translate?
RUclips remove this comuity translate thing
Which is a Great Shame...
I put my grain of salt and submitted a translation to Latin-American Spanish ✌
@Daniel Said Retana López here in youtube, it's still processing tho so i guess it'll be up in a few days
@@SnivyChara Gracias man
"We live in a world where arcades die and viruses live" :(
And this is sad
nah, The country I live in now is called Japan, but the arcade is alive and well thanks to the cloud gaming arcade
😔
“We also live in a Society” just saying
I rolled back that's why I'm this early
Lmao
Quite humorous my good sir
Rollback truly is better. Some have really bad delay.... (Like this comment)
I am your 1000th like :)
@@whateverthisis4087 not suspicious
Excellent video Gerald (and thanks for linking my rollback article)! Wanted to add 2 points to even further strengthen the argument for rollback:
1) Even if you live near your opponent, delay-based netcode doesn't work very well because the internet frequently delivers packets inconsistently (especially on WiFi). Rollback is very good at handling subtle moments of packet loss or ping spikes, even if your overall connection is fast and your opponent is close. It's this *consistency* that is rollback's biggest strength and it's why we need it for all games, even if we don't plan on playing over long distances.
2) Combining rollback with some initial delay at the start is much better than delay by itself, because the chosen delay remains consistent and unchanged in the hybrid approach, as opposed to the input delay constantly fluctuating with the connection quality in the pure delay approach. Again, it shows that consistency is the main benefit of rollback -- any uncertainty created by the network is instead handled through the prediction algorithms and occasional rollbacks, instead of forcing the user to feel the effects and undermine their strategy.
You have the best article I've seen on the topic. I wouldn't have understood rollback netcode without it. This video just scrapes the surface.
The lowkey Penguin Leffen reference was a good throwback haha
Lol I knew that's what it was
Was that about his Visa? Why the penguin?
@@alexanderespinoza a to compared players from the european reigon to penguins
@@alexanderespinoza The whole peguin meme was a reaction on how european tournaments tended to be underrepresented in official rankings, when Leffen brought that to people's attention, a now famous reply said something among the lines of "If we are going to consider results from europe in our rankings we may as well consider ranking penguins from antarctica"
【DAGOTH UR】 that’s not it at all wtf XD
So DSP just reacted to this and basically had an aneurysm trying to explain why you're wrong and Rollback is bad. Twas funny seeing him try to cope his way out of seeing evidence right on his screen.
His cope is pathetic. At the same time he'd lose on off line so he's just complaining for the sake of it
He is denser than a neutron star. He has no alternative to it either.
Is it really a reaction if he skipped almost the whole video? 😂
@@MrMultiB *Leans in*
no you dont understand, the FGC illuminati is doing brain manipulation on us all to think DSP is the crazy one, thats why capcom keeps lowering his mr off screen
Came here 2 minutes after the vid was published. There are so many comments already that nobody is gonna read this anyway. This tells you all you need to know about the quality of Core-A Gaming content. You are the best!
And yes...make netcode a priority. It's borderline embarassing compared to other genres by now.
rollback netcode was used for FPS games since Duke Nukem 3D (1996) 10 years before development of GGPO started.
I have a match in Fantasy Strike with someone across the globe, like literally on the other side of the Earth (SEA to USA). Yet, the match feels like offline.
Rollback is magic
The "why the earth is round" of the FGC
Too bad that the devs are flat earthers
@@jeako777 lol
It makes me kinda sad we have to keep telling people about this shit though. Same with why people should play fighting games wired.
@@Apsandman On the bright side though, nowadays rollback is talked about more constantly, awareness that it exists is more widespread, and people demand it more from companies, just a few years ago it wasn't talked nearly as much, so at least there's more awareness now.
And "Why you should use Ethernet and not Wifi" is Newton's law of Gravity.
This will definitely help people understand rollback netcode with Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl!
We're getting SPOILED with the amount of content recently. Thank you guys.
... he used to upload this frequently a few years back. Now I imagine he has a bit more to do running a gaming centre.
"Just because, the game has good rollback doesn't mean you get to use wifi with no issues just like ethernet." - Unknown person
It's not a big deal when i get 3 or sometimss even 1 bars on street fighter tho
@@ashtar3876 It is, you just don't see it because you're the one with the shitty connection
I don't see any ping difference between a good WiFi card (AX200 or a midrange smartphone in tether mode) on a 5GHz connection vs Ethernet. Wi-Fi is fine if you have modern (designed newer than 2015) equipment.
"Wifi is fine if you're close to the router" -BananaShiki
I am so blessed to be able to play UNI with 1f delay with my friend
Man I wish my friends play fighting games, man uni is 8 Frames :(
@@s_e_a3073 and tekken is 3
@@s_e_a3073 smash ultimate is 13 lmao
@@dad4436 * Cries in having to pay 20 bucks for it *
I sure loved my uniclr matches with 14 delay
Another thing I think is (mildly) important to consider is the fact that bad delay-based netcode and bad rollback have completely different effects. Bad DBN is just frustrating, while bad rollback can at least be somewhat amusing in how ridiculous it looks.
This is probably the fastest the channel has uploaded in a while!
Also, this is really convenient for me since rollback is a concept I wanted to explain to someone but couldn't.
It uploaded quick because the netcode predicted this video would be uploaded.
Never thought I'd see applications of persistence modeling in my fighting games, but this was quite informing. Good work as always.
0:49 he referenced the leffen Antarctica meme LOL
As a game programmer, this is extremely interesting and definitely an useful resource for future work.
BTW, Fighting Ex Layer got rollback implemented recently. So to any one reading this, I strongly urge you to try it out, especially if you like oldschool fighters.
I bought the game two days ago. I live in Southeast Asia and i can’t believe i can play against players from UK, Netherland, and even USA without lag! Well there’s some matches with lag but it still tolerable. Meanwhile games like T7, SC6, SFV, Samsho, or KOF XIV are lags like hell even if you play with your local players :/
I jumped back to playing the game. The matches were lag free and I was finding matches every 15-30 seconds. If a small company like Arika can fix their netcode then Capcom and Bandai Namco have no excuse.
@@BMKidProductions SNK too, they need to be put on blast
THEmounster they are slowly getting there like arcsystem. Garou MOTW has Rollback
@@elbucho8867 FOR REAL!!!! Garou really has rollback?
“you win just kidding’s”
beautiful
When I played some GG Strive from eastern US with a friend in Argentina, that's when I really started to appreciate rollback netcode. The only side effect I noticed the entire time was noticeable rollback when they jumped a couple times, but it was seriously impressive compared to Ultimate where the same connection had a full quarter second of input delay.
I absolutely lost my mind playing SF4 and UMvC3 for years then buying KI on release and hearing my opponent's british accent. It was fucking butter smooth. I played SF3soe too but only with friends so I didnt notice it.
3:02 "can you guess what my sleeping cats will do in the next frame?"
wake up dp?
I never cared about rollback and even got annoyed with people complaining about lack of rollback... until I started dating someone who lives nearly 5 thousand miles away from me. Now rollback is my new god
*A Gamer's Worst Enemy:*
1. Lag
I'm still making nightmares of 19 frames delay matches I've played in DBFZ
2: minorities
Damn. This video is pretty much perfect. To-the-point. Excellent pacing. Just the relevant information. Fun editing. Props!
I WORKED WITH Tony back in the day! Omg how time flies by. Tony truly had a mind set for future play. First told me about it in 2007. My goodness... 14 years ago.
TFW you just remembered that Playstation All-Stars even had an attempt at Rollback yet Super Smash Brother's still hasn't
Edit: Officially.
BRUH
And
Tfw the playstation all-stars community didn't have a single controversy in it's lofetime of 1 second
Well Nintendo hasn't, but Melee's got slippi now so we good
Even sillier is that Mario Kart and Arms have rollback.
@@Inriri To be fair, Mario Kart Rollback is really easy. If theres lag, then just hold their current inputs. As soon as lag is over, then just roll it back.
But for Arms... I don't understand why they put any effort into that game's online.
@@omarg2079 because Arms is made by internal Nintendo. Smash is developed by Bandai Namco
This is literally the easiest explanation to understand about how rollback netcode works.
.....thday to you!
Actually it isn't
00:48 only this far in the video but I love the reference to the Antarctica meme about Europe in Smash Ultimate.
JP gamer here
I understand people wanting rollback netcode, and I think its good
I'm curious why its not already a thing in fighting game
It's probably due to corporate demands. The same reason why an entry level job offer will require "10+ years of experience." Companies want to save money, and the guys on top running the business and who don't understand much about the nature of the product they're creating don't want to spend more getting employees who know how to implement proper rollback. Business executives are notoriously cheapskates and likely don't see the benefit of improving a game's online experience if the player numbers and sales remain stable. In other words, it's corporate ignorance.
UK gamer here
I understand people wanting rollback netcode, and I think its good
I'm curious why its not already a thing in fighting game
It's those first too letters of your post that keep it from already being a thing in fighting games. It's a standard feature in American developed fighting games. Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat X & 11, Injustice 2 and a ton of indy games have rollback.
Please, please, please speak up about it. If the JP devs won't listen to us maybe they will listen to the JP core audience. I can only dream of the day where KOF and Samurai Showdown have rollback, and living outside the USA only makes netcode worse
@@Cafetos0777 The most recent port of Garou: Mark of the Wolves has rollback, and the upcoming Guilty Gear Strive will have it on release.
1:30 is one of the reasons I love your videos, makoto's theme is straight fire and it always fits nature of the content you provide... Please never change it lol
^
I've been playing Guilty Gear strive online and to me it's been indistinguishable from me playing offline in training mode. It's incredible
As a guitar player, that analogy was genius.
I finally understand Rollback netcode, I hardly ever noticed it in matches, thanks!
Great explanation, I love that you're able to dive so deep into the mechanics while keeping the feeling of floating in a wave pool.
Woah 2 Core-A videos in the same month awesome!
You'd think the Nickelodeon platform-fighter wouldn't have rollback netcode, yet here we are.
smash ultimate fans:
please we want rollback melee has it now
It is unplayable online.
@@LogMeInGoddamnit it's already unplayable offline even if you use a wired controller, 100ms of fucking input lag
Ultimate is a party game made for couch mp
That 100ms of input lag effects a small portion of the smash community. Smash is meant to be a party game evidenced by items, wacky and unique stages, and a more simple fighting game that almost everyone can pick up and play. Not many people will ever notice the 100ms delay or ever will
@@lumnary7635 It's a party game that has fighting game DNA and therefore has a very high skill ceiling for the players that want to play to challenge themselves. Those players will notice and feel the delay.
I swear after the round table, not 2 days ago I watched Code Mystic's video on how rollback and input delay work. I immediately thought this would be a great video topic for Core-A to go in-depth into and whaddaya know. A video on exactly that comes out. Great as always!
The fact that we can have rollback in melee which definitely has the most insane input strings in fighting games and it still feels super super smooth despite the amount of 1-2 frame moves like shine and jabs being so heavily used is a testament to how amazing this is and if the melee community can do it for such a crazy high input game then capcom really needs to get on the wagon.
Wow this was awesome! Well explained and demonstrated/visualized, just the thing I needed! I'm just getting into fighting games, and these types of videos are just what I need to quickly learn all the ins and outs, makes learning a lot more efficient and allows my monkey brain to process and store all this info. I can see your passion show in this 1 video alone, so I will definitely be binging the rest of your videos! You earned a sub with this one mate, it must have been hard work just to make this short explainer video, I know a lot of people don't realise just how much work something like this takes, with all the graphics and demo reels that are needed. Also, putting the sponsor at the end is a welcome change from having it shoved in my face in the first 30 seconds. All around, well done and keep up the good work!
Why end with that shot of Tekken, Harada told us it already has rollback!
TK7 is 3!
read well!
I think I remember Harada being against rollback in the first place.
@@Boyzby it's gonna be 6!
@Kayden I like both, but I definitely like SFV a lot more
Balance was one thing Tekken 7 always had over SFV, but that might not be the case anymore
As a developer of a multiplayer game using rollback (and a big fan of the channel) this is the most approachable and informative introduction to rollback that I've seen. The animations are awesome too. Great job!
I burst out laughing at 0:50 penguin. Glad to see this glorious meme still alive.
really cool depiction of the european smash scene at 0:50
Hey Core-A, you'll probably never read this, but I was watching your "consequences of lowering the skill gap" video. I was wondering, could you do a video about "the consequences of RAISING the skill gap"? Some games like For Honor are experiencing that now, and the social aspect surrounding it is fascinatingly frustrating.
Wow. This was a fantastic breakdown/explanation of not just roll back netcode, but the concept of netcode as well.
Amazing content as always.
DBFZ is finally getting Rollback netcode support! 😎👍
Needed this channel in my life. Really love to know the technicalities and know how's of how things work.
Now I know what Sajam was telling him off the mic
Thank you so much for helping me understand this!!!! I hear my friends and other FG youtubers talk about rollback and I never knew what it was or they just explained it really poorly. Keep it up Core-A 👍
DSP punching air right now.
Really like the short and frequent content mixed in with the long form. You guys do good work. And it’s wholesome. Which is why I watch. I barely play fighting games. Keep it up!
Alternate title - Analysis: How King Crimson Works
It just works
Look into 10 seconds into the future erase it profit.
Its literally King Crimsons ability lol
What a great video! You made me appreciate this highly technical topic in a way that was easy to understand.
I was playing granblue with a friend, and when I got up to use the restroom he changed my controller input delay to 10 frames, and it took me a while to notice because I'm used to shitty connections.
I appreciate how brief and informative your explanation of rollback is.
Calling it out, this whole video was just a setup to show off your perfect cats nuzzling.
was watching this on some site, but came to youtube so I could like because this video quality and examples are like.........the best I've ever seen on any explanation of anything lol
Maximillian Dood will love this video
ｒｏｌｌｂａｃｋヤマレ
He did
The absolute best channel on RUclips. Gerald and team, you're fantastic. I get so excited when I get the notification of new vids from you.
Core-A gaming rolled back to Gerald. Welcome back Gerald
I always kinda knew what rollback netcode meant but this video made it way more clear to understand. Thank you!
Guilty Gear Strive, and KOF XV will have Rollback Netcode.
I never really understood what the difference between delay and rollback was, but now I do! Great video!
*sajams' jaw drops and his tongue rolls out onto the table*
Going back to this video weeks after Tekken 8's release.
The efforts people have done to try to spread the good word of Rollback will never be forgotten.
Now to enjoy this video again~
I think you need to take a look at the source code for Quake 3 Arena (Q3A) before you attribute latency compensation to Tony Cannon. Q3A came out in 1999 and the source code was released in 2005. It had all of the netcode features you've described.
Q3A would predict where a player is going to be based on their last inputs just like you've described here. If they were last know to be running forward, it would assume they were still running forward. It would also snap players to their correct location when a network message came through to show that their input had changed and the predicted location was wrong. Furthermore, there was "rollback" on attacks in the game as well. If a player fired a rocket 45 ms ago and you just learned about it, your game would show the rocket as if it had been in flight for 45 ms already. I'd have to go back and check to see if it rolled back animation as well (player animation is much less important in a FPS than a fighting game, so it may not have). You could also dial in your input delay in ms instead of frames (like GGPO frame delay).
Q3A didn't try to negotiate "rift" -- but that's because the game had a variable framerate (in-game time isn't based on frames), so rift didn't exist. Someone running the game at 15 fps could connect and play against someone running at 125 fps without any issues.
Id Software was a real pioneer for competitive online gaming.
Question out of curiosity: was this system also used in peer-to-peer games or just in games where clients are synching up to a server?
I was going to mention this. Also Unreal Tournament 99 had a community-developed netcode called "zeroping" and another called "newnet" which added all these features back in 2002 (maybe earlier). If you look at the Unrealscript files included with the game you can see that the game had been designed with rollback in mind although it wasn't fully implemented at release. The great thing about Unreal is that when you connect to a zeroping or newnet server, it automatically updates netcode and implements it for you. You don't need to install or anything at all to use it.
you are right, but companys did not use this for fighting games before ggpo, so its not that wrong to consider what the guy did as well.
2020 is one good year wit how much Core-A Gaming vids were getting :D
Oh, so it's kind of like how I hit "Like" before even watching this video because I already knew it was gonna be top tier.
3 Core-A vids in 1 month, what a blessing!
This going to sound crazy but hear me out, I've noticed some devs are reluctant to implement Rollback because they have an agenda to the casual playerbase. I noticed Rollback is implemented in most often aggressive games which have more actions going on to predict for RB, which I feel like protects the wifi player because they'll attempt to be sneaky/mash. Slow reactionary footsie games (The ones that matter, not counting Punch Planet) don't have it still to protect wifi players because according to Harada, Tekken's playerbase is 50% wifi. Probably like that for a lot of FGs which harms the ladder experience for otherwise decent players.
This is by far the best explanation I've seen on RUclips. Now I understand rollback netcode.
I watched the whole Express VPN part because it was so genuine. THIS is how you get sponsored right.
I don't know if you guys will ever see this but jesus christ you post literally the highest quality fgc videos on this site, props to you guys
Youre good at analogies
4:50 in the league fighting game ekko as a dose a frame 1 teleport every combo… this man real told people what not to do and then just did it what a mad lad
Fantasy Strike has some of the best netcode I've ever seen. I legit can't tell if i'm playing someone in another hemisphere
I experienced that on Switch...
But lately ERRORSCREENS
AND I BOUGHT CORE PACK!!
Will wait for update.... Enjoy Boss Rush until then... THIS IS FINE
This was SO helpful. I always heard the terms, but never understood the implications. Very informative, thank you.
The biggest issue with rollback netcode is grabs. Let's say your opponent is walking forward and you grab him, but then he rollbacks to a jumping state. What happens to your character? The ideal situation would be that your character goes immediately back to idle animation so you can block or counter the aerial. But in 99% of games with rollback, thanks to developer incompetence, your character does the "got his grab parried" animation. You got punished for successfully grabbing an opponent. This is especially damning with p2p, where the opponent can just modify the information they're sending with third party tools, or even use lag switches.
I've been messing around with reaction time stuff and my average is about 13.2 frames for conditioned things, considering 3 frames is a decent connection on delay-based that goes to 16.2 frames at best. Ryu's forward strong is 14 frames in Third Strike, and some of the stuff I've read puts the limits of human reactions at about 12 frames so even a perfect human can't block that overhead on 3f delay, and it's likely impossible for me normally considering that's 1.2 frames at best to move my hand from 1 to 4 assuming I react perfectly. The point in this example is while it may be extremely unlikely and difficult to block that overhead on reaction it's still possible with practice especially if you're looking for it but online it's just not possible ever. Great work as always
Imagine the revitalization of scenes that have died because of lack of competition. Those small niche communities would then have a way to connect with each other.
Or take a huge fighting game like DBFZ and implement GGPO plus cross platform 😩 god the future of fighting games is looking bright
Excellent video. I know this is a little late, but I just wanted you say you forgot another nice thing about rollback netcode : sometimes, even if your prediction is incorrect, it still might not matter.
Imagine you're playing this character that has a 5-second true combo or something. You start it on a blocking opponent by command grabbing. The game saw your opponent was blocking, so it predicts that your opponent will continue blocking. Let's say your opponent stops blocking and just starts button mashing out of frustration in the duration of the 5-second combo. Your copy of the game gets these new inputs, and resimulates the game from the last received input up until the current frame where he's button mashing - but it doesn't matter! Since your opponent is in hit stun throughout the combat, none of his inputs matter, so even though your prediction of his input was incorrect, your mispredicting game is still matched up with his, and nothing has to be rolled back.
If your game's misprediction of your opponent's input happened during startup lag, active frames, hit stop, end lag, hit stun, block stun, the intro animations at the beginning of the match (so annoying how delay based games can lag/stutter during that...), or basically any moment of the game where your opponent's inputs don't matter, then it still does not have to rollback.
That's one of the main selling points of rollback netcode. It hides your network lag in the inherent lag of fighting games.
Why does Tony Cannon look like Computer Science Tyler1
Top notch content, as always.
So when harada talks about tekkens delay being 3 frames he's talking about that rift compensation you were explaining.