I Cut a Premium Pinarello Carbon Fiber Frame in Half... Here Is What I Found!
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
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Ever wondered what's inside that sleek and speedy Pinarello F8 frame? Well, we did the unthinkable! We took a blade to this beauty and sliced it right down the middle. But don't worry, it's all for the love of science and cycling curiosity! Join us as we dive deep into the carbon core with Rob, the carbon expert, unraveling the mysteries of this once, majestic frame. Expect layers of intrigue, fibers of fun, and a weave of witty wonders.
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PS. When I provide a link here to gear or equipment I sometimes get a kickback from it. But I NEVER link to something that I haven't used or did use and didn't like! 👍
Polyurethane is needed to create pressure on the frame walls in complex geometric places when laying out the material in the frame. The vacuum sleeve is not able to push through such zones without the formation of shells on the product. Polyurethane prevents the formation of resin pockets, it makes the final product lighter.
👌🏼
Exactly!!
This type of expanding material is used all the time in laminates with core materials also. It can also be used in small corners and crevice's to help with compaction of the laminate where the bladder doesn't get into well. Which is what it seems like is the case here. It seems fairly obvious that multiple internal bladders met up at a "T" shaped junction and so the used some core splice to help compact the layers in the corners.
Also the idea that the materials are not structural??? It's structural foaming adhesive that's designed to bond together and transfer loads between segments of core materials.
Can anyone tell me a product name or how to find those foams? I think its extremly intresting but I can´t find any product to it
@@EliasSchul airex foam
As others said, the PU are cores preventing voids to collapse when under pressure from vacuum or resin injection (RTM). Most Carbon Fiber cranks have a large foam core. In RTM the foam is a hard piece and the fibers are wrapped around. Don't know if with prepreg the foam is injected and hardened in the frame.
The reason the voids are not left open is structural. A straight inner tube will reduce stress concentrations which would arise in the corner where the PU sits.
I really want to see the nireeka carbon bikes to be torn apart to see if they are worth it.
Looks like it took a impact from a fly...
Nice informative video thanks and you have a nice voice with good broadcasting timbre but your affectation of dropping your Ts to sound down-wiv-da-kids is an irritation. When I got to 4.23 and you said "ma'a" for matter I gave up watching.
Back in the days my aeronautical engineering class built a light kit plane in university. A lot of foam was used in the sandwiched composite structure. High density foam can take a fair bit compressive force as long as it's not a point force like your finger tip.
Every time im tempted to buy a carbon bike i always think about these types of videos.
I'll just stick to alloy bikes
It is always interesting to see. I've done tests on carbon strength and it surprisingly strong tbh 👍🏼
@JourdainColeman I know carbon is strong when built to specs and taken care. But I've cracked frames and wheels before and just want to steer away since the experience.
They're analogous to polymer handguns in a way. Some traditionalists swear by heavy, all-steel revolvers. However, the world has since moved on for performance over tradition.
I believe is for vibration damping, lowering certain frequency vibrations resonating in the hollow tube, and thus comfort. It's common in badminton/tennis racquets.
The foam might have been heat activated so when they heated up the mold the foam sort of boiled up and provided pressure from the inside.
Good point
Carbon bikes is like a disposable bike. Designed only for one single competition but not intended for hobbies, adventures, and daily commuting. This kind of material is dangerous for longterm and rigid use.
Now this video is an evidence of the reality of Marketing Hype in the Bicycle Industries.
It is time to wake-up folks! Please do not waste your lives and money before its too late.
Nah! You're living in the past. Years ago, I got rid of my old titanium framed bikes Carbon is the way to go. I rode a carbon bike hard for 5 years and nary an issue. Sold it only to upgrade to a new carbon bike.
Well at least at 40 pounds you got nearer to the actual value of these extremely overpriced carbon frames. $8,000 when new? Does that come with the car to mount it to?
Nothing new Pinarello is overrated garbage. Had two bikes from them and one frame all broken after 1-2 years.
Glad to see the frame made its way onto the channel, if only to be cut up! Really interesting to see inside and I can only guess as well as anyone else what might have happened to it before I picked it up… 😂
Hi Adam, thanks for selling the frame to me! In a way the frame has a second life from this video! As much as would have been great to bring this frame back to life, this is a good alternative 👍🏽 All the best mate
I worked as a structural aircraft mechanic before. The white stuff might be micro balloons, and yes it is a filler but a very light and solid one. Think of it as composite equivalent of bondo. The head tube foam is just that. A filler. The shape creates the strength, but you don't want to leave a void, because you want to provide structure. So the carbon wraps around that foam instead. Foam instead of solid carbon fiber for weight reduction.
Microspheres - tiny hollow glass balls commonly used with epoxy as a filler. The balls are outrageously strong and are used in marine applications to create flotation that goes to the bottom of the deepest parts of the ocean.
Yes, I believe I've seen micro balloons in the expansion ring of a Jet engine intake (?).
Foam is used as a structural separator in lightweight composites. For example a gliders wing is actually built similar with foam. For example imagine 2 pieces of cardboard. They hold zero structural integrity. But when u add waved cardboard between it gets vero sturdy. Remember that when we are dealing with momential forces the height of a section is calculated to third power and width is not 😊
*note If someone sand/cut carbon fiber stuff, please wear industrial-grade mask and gloves when you try to cut carbon fiber stuff.
Pinarello got very poor QC, if you wish to do a video, I’m happy to show you photos of their 2023 dogma F.
Your local skip must be wondering why this chap keeps showing up a few times a month with cut in half frames! the disappointment on the tip workers faces when they see half a decent bike frame.
hahaha... believe it or not I have them all stored ready for comparison to the next one I cut up. 😂
Fun fact: BMW used foam to prevent cracking of the rear underbody on the E46. At some point nearly all used E46 developed cracks in the metal sheets above the rear subframe. So they somehow came up with the idea to prevent this with filling the space between the trunk floor and lower area with foam, probably to create some kind of structural support from the inside.
What a car!! Interesting to see that foam has been used to prevent cracking issues. Others have mentioned it's used a lot in boating as well 👍🏽
Pinarello road bikes is the world champion of cracked !!!
The foam appears to be product called last-a-foam which darkens to this color post cure. It was machined to size and placed in unsupported cavities in leu of bladders.
It could be used to reduced parts from resonating due to vibration.
PRO TIP ----for most of the frame use multitool with starlock (best bosch / fein , green bosch with starlock and fast locking mechanism (the ones with lever not screws) is enough) and multiblade / abrasive blade for concrete (like ACZ 85 RT ..... last me years working with composites everyday , remember to check the granulation because there are some to choose ) etc , they cut carbon like butter and don't blow the dust in the air like angle grinder , all the dust will fall down
Foam has strength in compression. Large panels used in race boats, aircraft bodies, floors, wings, combined with the tensile strength of carbon fibers make possible very light weight structures with tremendous strength. If you fly across the Atlantic be aware that you are sitting in a structure that has lots of structure made with foam/carbon elements, or honey comb/carbon.
Interesting... I just had a Google. Interesting to see where it's used 👍🏽
Absolutely true. This foam gives you stiffness without adding heaviness but you need to remember if you across some point it will break. I work at composite automotive industry from 15 years
Isn’t that reinforced area in front of the bottom bracket just the result of bonding the front triangle and the rear triangle together? 👀
"I am not sure I am not sure"...why don't you just ask Pinarello duh
Duh? Why not ask them for the blueprints, too? It's call PROPRIETARY tech for a reason.
Hi. Why not ask the question directly to Pinarello rather than pondering endlessly about it?
Why not ask them for the blueprints, too? It's call PROPRIETARY tech for a reason.
Watch me cut a Specialized frame in half next - ruclips.net/video/R-obzaCZJHg/видео.htmlsi=9hZv2NBqXT37I_BC
foam core construction makes carbon fiber much more impact resistant.......... that's why we build entire boat hulls from it. no big deal here.
Foam was originally for buoyancy in the case if a hull breach
Interesting, thanks for sharing!
wrong. foam core is the majority of the structure in every boat built since the late 60's. @@glennoc8585
Just my pennies worth..these carbon frames are a con...! They are not being properly supervised in their making..now I am not actually critical of the manufacturer or manufacturing...HOWEVER...a Chinese frame and forks can be bought from (possibly) the same manufacturer for LESS than a $1000...the fact that (in this instance..) Pinerello are charging WAY MORE $$$'s is an outright disgrace
I do not know anything about " Structural,Engieering,Etc.Etc.What i do know,you got be nuts to spend that kind of money for a frame.For the last 10 years i been buying Chinese,wheels,frames,etc.etc.I have never paid more than 600 dollars for carbon frame,or 500 dollars for carbon wheels.Never had any problem with the goods To whom a may concern: If you you want to buy today one of the best carbon frame in the market that costs five times less than this " Dogma ?. Buy Winspace,at max 1500 dollars you will not be sorry.
I don't think the foam has anything to do with riding the bike, but rather in laying up the frame weave during the manufacturing process. Possibly an early/mid or trial method in maintaining the layup shape during baking.
Yeah, I think that's the case as does Rob 👍🏼
Can you find any ridley Noah's? Just about to take delivery of a 2015 noah sl so I'd like to see what I'm in for
CARBON BIKES WHAT A WASTE OF MONEY!
Damage at the BB is classic chain-suck damage. I've repaired several damaged in the same way. The damage isn't usually structural, so filling with chopped mat in epoxy is sufficient. Builders' foam in an expensive frame. Chinese POS!
To cut a prime racing bike frame in half.... man... why would you do that? Unless you get paid.
It was already a right off with large cracks in three places. 👍🏽
After watching a number of your cut down videos, all I can say is that if this pinarello frame had a trifox sticker on it, it would have been crucified and mocked, imo, unless you're a professional rider, buy the cheap brand names, there's NO significant difference.
As for the damages of the drive side chainstay (around the bottom bracket and rear dropout) - I think it could be from a dropped chain.
Yes... Very good point. If that's the case then it must have been pretty drastic!!
Must've dropped the chain under high load to cause that!
Looking at this confirms my reasoning to stick to easily recyclable environmentally friendly materiel. Trusting your life to these plastic bike frames that a have limited lifespan due to fatigue micro-fracture failures.
maybe the Polyurethane reduces noise. All these hollow compartments would amplify any vibration, like a guitar
Could you please not cut carbon outside. The fiber will fly around in your neighborhood and the environment.
I have some experience to create carbon structures by building up a microlight aircraft. I also have experience to design ultra-light structures for model planes made from carbon fiber. Sometimes I use foam as a barrier to avoid that glue is flowing away from that section that I want to bond. This can be the reason for the internal brown foam. The white foamy bubbly structure comes often if you use vacuum technics to press the carbon layers onto the surface of the mold. At this vacuum technic a hole in the foil let flow air into the space between foil and carbon. The result is that bubbles in the resin are created. If these bubble are cored, it seems to be foam be placed there. This only is foam made from resin, created by inside floating air.
Thanks for sharing. Interesting info 👍🏼
Only titanium frame!!!!
Bottom line is. Carbon frames are never expensive. They are cheap. They mark up at least 500 times to sell to consumers
The costs of making one are low. But the machine to make them isn’t.
Nah. You could say the same for iPhones. The actual components in them are probably 1/10th of the overall cost. Mosts of the costs are for research, development, prototyping, supply chain management, warranty, advertising, customer support, shipping, etc.
Chinarello . 😂😂
I like my steel frames, i don't have to question what's inside.
The damage on the chain stay looks like it sucked the chain.
Что там за кусочек трубки приклеен к стенке рамы?)) у меня из рамы такойже выпал)
The Fill can help to reduce vibrations noise- just an idea
Call me crazy but I don’t reckon that’s the headtube
Very interesting yet slightly off-beat video young sir. It raises some interesting structural considerations too. Your tech guy delivers some well reasoned arguments. For my 20 cents, I’d say the infilling amounts to not much more than vibration dampening as others have suggested.
I’m actually in the throes of buying a new Dogma F10 frame (as a ‘final hurrah’ bike as I’m over 60 and need a late life adrenaline fix!) to build up over the next while.
If I manage to write that sucker off then we all know where it’ll end up eh? 😂
How do you like the f10 😂
I wonder what the reactions would be if this was found in one of the cheap carbon frames
Yeah, I remain pretty neutral and avoid any bias! 👍🏼
There's a borderline cultish reaction people have now when it comes to YT cycling. People seem to want the major brands to fail as some retribution for product costs, and are willing to ignore the same or worse flaws in unbranded/CN-branded frames. Like, save a grand on a bike is nice but its the same $30k hospital bill if the when the steerer fails. At least with on option, there's SOME quality control involved. Have you ever seen a CN outfit issue a recall? If they did, how would you even know?
Another part is that the internet is a segmented world, despite our hopes of democratizing information. Unless you can read/type hanzi/kanji for instance, there's an entire world on the internet that you have no access to. You can't even type to go to those webpages. So the English speaking internet has an incredibly myopic frame of view. Meanwhile, in China, everyone wants a "western" brand. Except for the absolute peak, in recent more nationalistic years, people want a CN brand that is endorsed by western customers.
Its maybe even worse with groupsets. Like, sorry folks but Ltwoo is no way a threat to Shimano. SRAM isn't a threat to Shimano, for that matter. 60% of bikes sold globally are in Asia. SRAM, at least when/where I lived in Japan, is non-existent. Shimano owns 80% of global road groupset sales. There is no competition here.
@@JourdainColeman And I appreciate it, not only in this video but throughout your channel, which I find very valuable. I just think that if this was a cheap frame, the reception would be very different and people would be all doom and gloom.
I hope steel road bikes will come back. They’re more reliable and if taken care of properly, could last a lifetime
You can still buy them, so I don’t see the issue.
Chain suck / dropped chain has caused that damage on the chain stay by the bb, the damage on the drop out is again chain trying to drop off the 11 tooth, I’ve damaged top tubes like that due to frame stands and people who love to sit on their top tubes.
Yeah, I agree, not sure why I didn't realise this initially. I guess I was looking for a bigger impact. You'd be devastated if you clamped your frame in a bike stand and that was the end result. The top tube damage was more significant than it appeared on camera as well.
@@JourdainColeman yeah it's mad how much damage a clamp can do! The issue is some clamps simply screw and you can be gentle, but some have cams that ramp that pressure high! I've also seen a guy who loved showing everyone how you can squeeze n flex the thin walls of his Aero shaped frame, he done it so often and hard that eventually he broke the resin down and it ended up like a section of papier-mâché!
It’s absolutely ridiculous that we have to fork out up to 20 grand for a top end bike these days . $100 worth of carbon, 100$ worth of metal / alloy, 190$ worth of plastic . Where’s the rest ? We’re being played here folks . These companies are rip offs . No wonder Ali/ bang good, are so inviting these days.
Other cost will be owing to significant of money spent on research and development, others are owing to unnecessary improvements and unnecessary complications. Nevertheless, it can’t be denied that bike companies put a humungous amount of margin on their production cost as most of the bikes are made in China (with slave like labour) or other Asian countries where the cost is low.
Don’t be silly, you can say the same about any luxury / high end product - Rolex watch / Louis Vuitton handbag / Chanel dress etc etc……of course the sum of their parts is a lot less than their retail price. But some people love to own these high end products and are more than happy to pay the price, in fact the higher the price the better in some ways as it increases their exclusivity. I guess / hope you probably have some passion in your life, that demands an excess of your time and probably a disproportionate amount of your money - but that is your thing. We won’t challenge or question you on your passion in life. For others top end, pro level bikes are their thing. Don’t question it, don’t try to rationalise it, but it is their thing.
The foam is just for sound improvement
Foam IS for isolation . Sound an vibrations
But sadly we dont know if the pen is working....😅😅😅😅
But back to serious: We need more voices like yours, keep up your good work!
It is called sandwich construction. Quite commonly used in GRP decks and over the waterline of yachts. It might help aswell reducing noise...
The PU foam must be a bit of "fly away tooling" right? A pre-moulded former for those specific areas that was left in the part when laminated in.
Looks like it fell off the top of a car
Also, vibration damping.
Are you sure this is a genuine F8 ? This is one of the lost faked frames made. What was the bb threads and you show the Q/C sticker
For the cost of that bike it looks terrible
yes, you can also ride it)
I have been riding a Dogma F8 since new in 2016 fitted with SRAM Red eTap 2x group. It has suffered no major failures and is currently in service in 2023. So it has had a good servvice life for a carbon frame. I suspect the damage around the bottom bracket was the result of an impact - dropped or run into a curb? I have had trouble in two areas: early on, the seatpost would slide down (bring on the fat jokes) due to the wedge system for securing the seatpost. Don't love that system. The front brake calipers don't want to stay aligned and sometimes rub. I have had them done up by good bike shop mechanics and they do this. I am not sure if this is a Pinarello problem or a SRAM problem. After watching a number of these videos, I am convinced that no matter what brand of bike it is, carbon fiber construction is delicate and requires care in assembly/service (torque settings) and in use/handling. My next road bike will be titanium, which will have a different set of trade-offs.
I went straight to titanium and skipped carbon after only a few months of riding. I accepted the cons of an alloy bike and am very happy.
@@bonbonflippers4298 An understandable decision. I think of getting a good ti bike like buying a Porsche 911. Whether your car is brand new or 20 years old, it still looks cool. With a carbon bike, it is out of style next season. The carbon bike industry continues to innovate its styling direction.
@randallsmith7885 carbon have beautiful modern styles. It's personal preference. I used to like modern style bikes but as I am getting older my tastes are slowly converting to classic and timeless designs like steel amd titanium.
Thanks for sharing from a owners perspective!
@@randallsmith7885how many miles do you have on your F8?
wouldn't be surprised the bike was still secured on the roof rack when the transport vehicle was driven home into the garage after a long day.
Most mass produced carbon is crap.
What do you do with the frames after you've finished 'butchering' them 😂 I've got a crash damaged frame gathering dust at my house and I can't bring myself to just take it to the tip... Any ideas where is best to take it?
also the foam could be used as dampening, or sound mitigation....
and yea, the white is just resin and micro balloons as a filler, which is lighter than just resin
It looks like its been crashed and impacted the bottom and top pretty badly. All those fillers and stuff are very odd.
It is probably pvc foam, not polyurethane. It is not as debilitating as it is supposed to be. It may not be a structural material, but it gives strong mechanical properties. In addition to the lightness it brings, it facilitates production. In fact, as you can see, the pores in the foam were large and low-density foam was used because they cared about lightness.
It’s bone marrow
The top tube was damage when the rider crashed and the handlebars hit the frame. Classic & common damage.
Looks like a bone structure
This was designed by either bigfoot or the loch ness monster, still trying to come to a determination.
would be highly interesting to see an F frame cut in the seat stay junction are - where the first batches showed the cracks
I would say the foam is there to absorb shocks through the frame not for it's integral strength.
The Polyurethane can indeed be structural, it helps prevent any 'box' section collapsing (deforming in a kink mode), car manufacturers have been using it to stiffen body shells for nearly 40 years (one of the first applications was into the windscreen pillars on Ford Sierra's).
The good old Ford Sierra! Thanks for your input. Many other people have also mentioned the same thing
Have the hollow voids been filled? With a mould to hold the shape while the epoxy sets.
Perhaps the foam is there to damp high frequency vibrations?
I own the Karma….Don’t let my Karma run over your Dogma…
The poly-foam may also help reduce frame noise?
Taste it and see if there's sugar in it.
😂😂
I bet it is not a Chinese I have 1 come new f
its made in taiwan or China. 😅
All is a Chain marks..!Pinarello make a good frames...and you make this beautiful job!
Yeah, I think the chain caused most of the damage... such a shame!
👍👍
The polyurethane could also be a used as a damping or insulation material to control vibration or sound transmitting through the frame.
A few other people have mentioned that as well. 👍🏽
@@JourdainColeman oh cool. Solid work cutting it up though.
Have a great day.
RN
should do a ultrasound scan...
I build some carbon parts in positive (Without mold). You use foam (eg XPS, Styrodur) to build a frame and lay the carbonfibre around it. here in the vid the white filler should be epoxy with micro glas bubbles. I think they use it for tight corners leaving no hollow areas. Some times i use this mixture to glue two dry carbon parts together. They foam near the seat tube is used, because the frame should not be squeezable at his area. and it feels more rigid with less carbonfibre. I am concerned about the foam at the headtube. this seems weaken the frame in my opinion. Its a pitty to see this frame cut into half, i could have been easily repaired.
Not _easily_ repaired lol.
@@blaze1148 before the cutting in two halfs It was easy...Afterwards it needs a bit more effort😅
@@RazzFazz-Race lol
I think the foam is meant to absorb vibration and make the ride more comfortable. It's located at the base of the seat tube and handlebar. The places where the rider would have pressure over the bike.
Lot's of good comments and a few mentioning this as well 👍🏽
I personally agree with your opinion. and I think it also helps to disperse sounds that are generated in the hollow carbon frame.
Pinarello frames are pieces of junk. I have a pinarello prince and the front fork was nothing but problems from day 1. The caliper mounts were not square and I had a lot of rubbing. Pinnarello wouldn’t warranty the bike because it was a left over. The park tool refacing tool doesn’t work on that fork unfortunately. It wasn’t a simple fix and it took visiting 3 different bicycle shops. Finally got it fixed but it ended up costing a pretty penny. I will never by a Pinnarello again.
How many bikes have been harmed in the making of your videos, jourdain?
All the frames I've cut have been write-offs already apart from one! So only one frame so far and that was requested by the company 🙃
@@JourdainColeman I'll allow it
vibration damping?
Good suggestion!!
They probably used foams to achieve the right amount of flexing for the frame. Like a damper
It's Cork
I think it's too solid to be cork. Although I've not opened a bottle of wine in a while 😂
It's a replica. They use T1000 carbon which cannot ever be like this..
You could have fixed the frame with structural paint. 😁
It tells me that carbon frames are total S**T regardless to cost.
Its probably a filler to maintain shape during manufacturing and has nothing to do with the ride. And all this tells me people like you have zero fucking clue about much anything.
That’s just silly
If you base your opinion on the samle size of 1, you might want to reconsider.
Sound dampening? maybe to give a more exclusive sound?
Good point. Could be for sound 🤔 maybe vibration as well