A BIG Thank You to Gary, Hambini, Jay and Aaron for their involvement in this piece. It was great to have so many perspectives, enabling a well rounded evaluation. Cheers, Cam
That Giant employee is pretty standard i guess, my local US giant store employees are very much like that guy, super nice and always a pleasure to deal with.
And he is totally right. It's a shame to scrap a brand new frame like this. I worked as a production engineer for the largest bike brand in the Netherlands and it still hurts me to see so much harm done to high quality bike parts with many hours of labour in it.
Carbon manufacturer here. I like the video but take issue with the first conclusion which is incorrect. 10.37 says the wrinkle made of glue is a "weak point". its not a weak point. if the wrinkle is made of glue (as the bike shop chaps reported) and the fibres below are straight then there is no reduction in strength. It has the same carbon, in the same orientation, and some additional glue that filled up a wrinkle in the bag. Sure its nicer to have an EPS or wax mandrel that give smooth surfaces. It makes zero measurable impact on performance or safety. What would be good is to flatten out that area of glue down to the carbon suface and identify if the fibre orientation is straight or wiggly - that would indeed make a performance difference. No I'm not from Giant, but I can see some people in the comments responding to the incorrect diagnosis in the video.
I have to agree with you. I have spent plenty of time working/building high performance carbon sailing catamarans and the kind of things that are acceptable there don't make me second guess these frames even a little. Hambini is unfortunately making too much money while not being realistic with people who watch his channel about manufacturing processes.
@@andarenbici he couldve either given the damaged frame and injured a rider or wouldve completely jeopardised the potential knowledge and validity of the entire video by using a compromised and worn out frame
Like every other Giant TCR owner, my heart was in my throat from start to finish.....but im delighted to see that my 'boring Toyota' frame is good.....and by the way, i love it!! thanks for the vid 😄
Great video Cam. Well done. Giant TCR is usually considered a benchmark choice. Solid but boring option. It’s their BB that bring us the most work. Things tend to go wrong when someone has installed something other than the plastic BB from Shimano and the hole in the frame is not good enough for a more precisely made BB. The extra paint can cause issues with brake alignment sometimes. Thanks for making this vid.
Great to see you on this chat @mapdec. My 2016 Defy non-drive side shimano bb86 bearing seized after 5 years. It rarely gets wet. I just it replaced however it would be interesting to know if there is an underlying reason.
Now for full transparency and fairness, cut open a BMC frame. With it being seen as a less desirable frame by the pros, it would be interesting to see how it stacks up.
The other reason Giant is an excellent choice is because Giant makes *many* other mainstream brands, and could be seen as what would be reasonably expected of others as well.
Hello Hambini fans! The uncut version of the chop shop is available on my channel! I made it whilst drinking. Thanks to cam for having me on the channel!
Thanks again for being involved Hambini! The link to your full video is also in the description of this one fyi. Here's to being contracted for the large sum of fucking zero. hahahaha
3 mins in and I love the bike shop guys reaction and offer of a warranty frame instead. Then I think I yelled at the TV when dude was cutting the headtube with a recipricating saw and had his hand UNDERNEATH!! Exciting vid so far.
When did Hambini become an expert in carbon composites? I don’t remember seeing him or his company repairing frames? I don’t recall ever seeing him being consulted on that subject before? Seems an odd choice? Is it the case now that anything bike related we just ask Hambini because he say’s everything is “shite” and the vast majority of people think that’s smart? Luescher Teknik is the man you ask for this as he is legit an engineer in aerospace and an expert in carbon fiber.
Content and RUclips community... Habibi only looked at a couple of pictures across the planet, for clicks. If you want to say intelligent things about the frame you probably have to hold it in your hands.
sold Giant in Saudi Arabia for 10 years. in the 10 years i did with them, not one recall. i today own 5 Advanced SL ISP bikes built fromn the frame up including a 2024 TCR Adanced SL frameset. i did crack my 2012 frame when i hit a roadworks ditch pre-sunrise. wrote Giant. got a brand new 2018 TCR Advanced SL replacement. no questions asked.....
Thermo or X-ray tomography NDT will tell you way more than visual inspection. No DSA or calorimetry? This is so Disney. BTW those are bladder imprints, not laminate wrinkles… and holidays, not voids.
Now THAT was a really cool video. I watch your stuff from time to time and really enjoyed this one. Thank you for going to the time and more over expense of doing this.
Al i can say after owning a TCR for 5 Years without a problem i would keep buying them.25,000 miles approx and still on the same bottom bracket bearings
All my recent bikes have been giant, so I'm glad it just managed to squeak through the Hambini shite test, I don't know what I would do if it didn't, I guess I have so little faith in the industry that I wouldn't switch as I expect all manufacturers are similar.
Excellent vid eventhough i wont be doing that to my giant frame. But then again im still riding my 2010 TCR advance SL. Still kicks arse! Please cut a LOOK frame up as Hambini loves em.
I'm on my second xtc sl advanced frame. Giant did not quibble on replacing the original frame under warranty. I'm right now contemplating a Defy road frame.
A great review...Hambini who is very critical but the benchmark when reviewing a product,Gary who is just a proper guy who knows his job,and of course you for blowing the money on the frame in the name of making a honest review!
As a mechanical engineer and industry insider, I can say without equivocation that Hambini is a fraud. Of course it takes talent to see in others and why Hambini is given an audience by clueless people. I always laugh when his advice is used as any sort of benchmark. He denigrates the industry to promote his bottom brackets as a panacea when his heavy, one piece bottom brackets degrade all frames they are used on. The public, not all, as a collective are technically clueless. I am not going to write a book on why wall section is only an element in the equation of structural integrity. Proof is how many frames fail in the field as in the case of Specialized Tarmac SL7, how many high watt riders ended up on their heads due to steerer failure which created the SL8 with revised cable routing retainer at the top of the steerer to reduce stress concentration. (example) Inspection, all though indicative, falls short of reality out in the field.
@@lechproteantruly. Hambini was stretching himself a bit by making some conclusions without being able to measure (and in some cases not being able to discern things from pictures). I thought he did an OK job of giving caveats, but I think even he would say some of the things he said were slightly too far on the side of conjecture to be as useful to the consumer as they would be if he had the physical item. I think the obvious expert missing from this review is Raul @leuscherteknik I would love to get his impressions since he tends to be far less prone to playing for the camera.
Yes this is the response everyone needs to read. Its one thing saying product A looks nicer than product B - thats your call. But to infer that performance is degraded, based on insufficient information, or speaking ex-rectum for the camera, is not on. A good definition of an "expert" is someone who is clear on the boundaries of their knowledge, will demur and suggests instead you speak to an actual expert. Good call on Raul @@MrKipperfish
As a consumer i'm swaying on the side of Hambini's opinion here. Not premium but 'good quality' for a $4000+ frame is absolutely insane in my very personal opinion. That kind of money is nothing to sneeze at and for most people very hard earned crash. Let's also not forget we're talking about a naked frameset here. Including Groupset and wheels we're probably looking at something around 6k+. The trend of normalizing these crazy prices for "yeah, it's good i guess" needs to stop.
A warranty frame maybe with a paint defect would have been adequate. Hard watching destruction of new frame. Unfortunately you could go and buy another and it may be totally different, but please don’t!!! 😬 Comparing warranties and customer service of brands would be more useful.
Two great youtubers joining forces from across the globe. The guy selling that frame had the same kind of reaction I would have had. The pen is working!!
The builders always complain about the architects, the architects complain about the builders. The engineers blame the mechanics, the mechanics think the engineers are stupid, and the software guy blames the hardware, the hardware guy blames the software. So it is. I'm inclined to listen to the guys working on them all the time.
10:17 or in other words the guys who know carbon and work with it day in day out say the frame is pretty good. Hambini, who doesn't work with it says otherwise.
The Giant TCR frame is such an underrated product. First to market with the rear sloping tt which is now basically industry standard thanks to Mike Burrows. The XL geo is perfect for tall riders with a relaxed st and long tt.
The last time I had to make a warranty claim was for a Gary Fisher Joshua XO.I had a 12hr race a week away when I broke the frame. I called and they said they didn't have my exact frame in stock but they sent me the top model with the new rear shock adjustable on the fly and 2 day shipping. All free of charge. I will never forget how well they treated a nobody like myself. Customer service is paramount
Always enjoy the content, but good on the bike shop. I too think its terrible to trash products that much hard work went into just for some clicks. Better to use a warranty frame which would also be more illustrative of the failure modes?
It's just an extra variable though. Maybe whatever the frame had been through would have shown up in other spots other than the main point of damage, and then you would be wrongfully criticizing Giant for something that had nothing to do with them.
5:00 I think it is logical walls are diferent thickness, since pedaling forces are quite predictable. Ever seen anyone pedaling backwards? I think there was some data supporting this manufacturing decision. Your bearing might feel squeezed, but is designed to handle uneven loads.
The Toyota analogy is spot on. You won't go far wrong with a Giant. Excellent frames. In the current market, some of the best (at any price). Getting a bit expensive now, mind. It would be interesting to see if other Giant manufactured brands like Colnago (non C series), Trek and Scott were any better, because they're a whole lot more expensive. I'd guess exactly the same QC, but all better than most other mass produced carbon.
Giant makes Trek high end frames, so I imagine the same quality goes in for their customers. Scott (which I own) and Cannondale are made by a smaller factory in Taiwan. It would be interesting to see one of those frames cut up.
I liked the Toyota analogy. Isn't it the gold standard? Do you want to ride a McLaren bike wondering if they put enough glue in the chain stays? I'd love to see inside a time frame, given how different they are manufacturing wise, and that they're supposed to epitomise craftsmanship and what not.
There is huge danger from needless human overconsumption and people just waste a perfectly good frame that many people in developing countries can't afford for YT views when a legitimately lightly damaged or warranted frame can be found anywhere, a bit silly IMO.
Yes while I found the video interesting I couldn’t help feeling that a warranty frame would have been a far better idea. Also imagine how many young riders with a low budget would kill for that frame to race with and it’s now in a scrap heap.
I understand where your coming from but there are literally individuals with not just hundreds of millions of dollars, but hundreds of billions of dollars. Put that into perspective.
The paint is thick so if it gets scratched it doesn't damage the frame so easily. Polygon does that too, it's an Asian thing, overbuild things so nobody can complain things are breaking. The Chinese frame manufacturers have to save costs so they don't do that. Goes with the Toyota analogy actually, overbuilt.
As a bike park medic I cracked and snapped 6 Giant carbon frames in 1 year. My Trek alloy frame is now 2 years old and going strong yet only a few grams more weight
I rode bike, but I also mountain bike for many years and I enjoy my 2015 model carbon advanced XTC hard tail cross country bike that’s carbon have no issues with the frame or the bottom bracket shell . In fact it’s the original BB press fit . that’s the only giant product I own pretty tough frame I must say .
Giant are great bikes, glad to see it was acceptable. Hambini is great and his shite comment is standard, he does look for perfection. The Giant guy was typical of the attitude I have found dealing with them. Always willing to help out. Great video guys thanks.
Thanks for the sacrifice. My '21 TCR has the same BB "thin bb cup" on one side, creaky BB's. Had to put a two piece thread together bb to stop the creaks. A friend of mine with a '23 TCR, same BB fate and resolution.
Giant has a warranty on the paint. This is probably why the paint is much thicker than on other brands. Another reason is the paint job itself. Looks like it has some effect in it, this can only be done by doing multiple layers of paint and clear coat. I worked for Giant, sort of, my job was to sort out warranty claims of customers.
Interesting video! I ride a Giant TCR for 16 years now and no issues. So this is a testimony to Giant quality and value. Always have been interested in BMC bikes as well but your comments seem to lack confidence in the potential test results?
My take on Hambini’s opinion is that he is not saying that it is a bad frame, he is just saying that it’s not a good enough frame for the asking price. For that kind of money, every aspect including the roundness and the consistency of thickness of the BB shell ought to be 100% perfection. Not just “good enough “. A Time Scylon frameset is the same MSRP, and you won’t likely find any such inconsistencies there.
I disagree. Giant makes enough bikes to know what good enough means. 80/20 rule means it takes immense time to get to perfection, and people buy frames to ride them, not to look at the cross section of the BB shell. Ideas are cheap, like "paying for perfection". Meanwhile giant is the biggest manufacturer of frames and they know a thing or two about manufacturing.
Why do I care what's inside the frame? The frame has to be light, solid and that's all. Most carbon wheels and frames come from China or Taiwan. Carbon frames and parts from "reputable" companies also crack. Nobody says this, but if a Chinese frame breaks... it's Chinese scrap.
Im 300-330 LBS at any given time, I ride Giant TCR/DEFY in San Diego County, notoriously bumpy and terrible streets, the suggested weight limit on these is 285 lbs. I'm pretty damn hard on these bikes and never once had an issue, at times I treat them both like gravel bikes, full damn well knowing I shouldn't -- Giant is just the brand everyone loves to love or loves to hate.
this is a good example of the difference between fit for purpose and best/perfect.....and getting the price/benefit ratio correct...clearly the frame is not perfect but is very good and will not be an issue for the majority of users - bearing in miond that most will change the frame before it gets close to end of life. I'm also reminded that for so long Toyota used a very basic digital clock that told the time.......did its job but no more.
I don't know why the dude was knocking steerer tubes having internal fiberglass layers. They prevent galvanic corrosion. Some compression plugs get corroded and stuck inside steerer tubes. I apply grip paste to the steerer interior, but some people's sweat is something else. Having an extra non strucutural, inert layer there is prudent, same in seat tube interiors and bottom bracket shells
As someone who has worked with carbon fibers before I get shivers seeing this. Not because of the value of the frame but carbon fibre particle are extremely itchy on the skin. When I have to cut CF it will always be outside in front of the biggest fan in my shop. There is no way to wash them off your skin. This must have itched for a few days.
dont you think, that the non uniform wall thicknes of the BB might be on purpose? because the bearing will not be loaded in the direction towards the headset? most force on the bearing will be downward and a bit to the back when sprinting
I wouldn't be too upset with the quality of the frame. There is an argument to say with the amount you spend you should get perfection, but the cost isn't just in the quality, it's also in the labor, and the so called "brand tax". What I dont think Hambini is acknowledging with his review of he sliced open frame is what the cost would be IF Giant were to deliver a perfect frame. If there's the slightest void in the frame and Giant tosses it out that's more money for the so called "perfect" frame. And for what? Giant has most likely serialized at what point a frame has met quality assurance to where they can be certain that the frame wont fold in half at designated cyclist weight. On the off chance that does happen Giant will have service personal to review warranties. that's where the other cost of the frame go into. I think Hambini's assessment on the flaws is valid, but also not something that needs concern consider when considering this frame from Giant. Maybe the bb, but that's more of a bike mechanic question and asking how often they see this model of Giant come in for a BB change over other frames and brands.
Im concerned that the bottom bracket tube doesn’t not connect to both sides . The BB relies on the box section around it for strength rather than the tube surrounding the BB. Can the BB be over-tightened and damage the frame?
Interesting video, I’ve always been a Giant fan for this very reason. I drive a Toyota as well 🤣 Now let’s see BMC put their money where their mouth is and freely offer up a frame for a slice & dice so the world can see what they’re paying for 😄
A BIG Thank You to Gary, Hambini, Jay and Aaron for their involvement in this piece. It was great to have so many perspectives, enabling a well rounded evaluation. Cheers, Cam
Umm... Is there some kind of air extraction and filtration in that cutting booth? For when the mask comes off
@@warrenyoung173its purpose designed and we still evacuated the room three times during filming
Why didnt you use a warranty frame or a damaged frame.
Hambini - no thanks. His history should mean you don’t involve him.
Yes , absolutely !
The guy at the Giant store was super nice; he even offered a warranty frame for the experiment.
In hindsight its a shame they didn't use a warranty frame
It is a shame, but then there could be accusations that they selected a 'perfect' warranty frame before handing it over.
@@1nickybe difficult to tell if it's perfect unless it has already been cut up.
I'm with the Giant store guy- Cam is an idiot for doing this.
That Giant employee is pretty standard i guess, my local US giant store employees are very much like that guy, super nice and always a pleasure to deal with.
When the GIANT salesman realised he was dealing with a mad man... priceless moment in film history. Cheers, Chrissi
Right!!! 😂😂😂😂😂
And he is totally right. It's a shame to scrap a brand new frame like this. I worked as a production engineer for the largest bike brand in the Netherlands and it still hurts me to see so much harm done to high quality bike parts with many hours of labour in it.
The good man even said that’s “…not normal…” on camera!
"That's huh, That's not normal"
Love it!
@@janvanrookhuijzen8309ghost?
Carbon manufacturer here. I like the video but take issue with the first conclusion which is incorrect. 10.37 says the wrinkle made of glue is a "weak point". its not a weak point. if the wrinkle is made of glue (as the bike shop chaps reported) and the fibres below are straight then there is no reduction in strength. It has the same carbon, in the same orientation, and some additional glue that filled up a wrinkle in the bag. Sure its nicer to have an EPS or wax mandrel that give smooth surfaces. It makes zero measurable impact on performance or safety. What would be good is to flatten out that area of glue down to the carbon suface and identify if the fibre orientation is straight or wiggly - that would indeed make a performance difference. No I'm not from Giant, but I can see some people in the comments responding to the incorrect diagnosis in the video.
Glue is almost always going to have some voids. Makes very little difference.
I'm guessing they're using a balloon with a clamshell, but yeah it's weird that "experts" are complaining about bagging wrinkles.
@CapraObscura Resin by itself has very little strength.
Wrinkles mean poor compaction underneath the wrinkle.
I have to agree with you. I have spent plenty of time working/building high performance carbon sailing catamarans and the kind of things that are acceptable there don't make me second guess these frames even a little. Hambini is unfortunately making too much money while not being realistic with people who watch his channel about manufacturing processes.
Credit to the Giant guy, who offered a warranty frame, instead of getting a sale for a new frame,
Yes he was very thoughtful. Great guy too.
Why did you not take that offer and give the frame to a young racer ? @@CamNicholls
@@andarenbici he couldve either given the damaged frame and injured a rider or wouldve completely jeopardised the potential knowledge and validity of the entire video by using a compromised and worn out frame
It would have been great if you cut up the warranty frame too. Just to compare the two and to see why the warranty frame failed.
@andarenbici he couldve either given the damaged frame and injured a rider
That makes no sense at all.
Like every other Giant TCR owner, my heart was in my throat from start to finish.....but im delighted to see that my 'boring Toyota' frame is good.....and by the way, i love it!! thanks for the vid 😄
Taiwan made TCR ADV SL is fine, but the build quality of TCR ADV which made in Kunshan is totally CRAP.
What have you based your answer on? Have you any facts you wqould like to share to explain your comment?@@fukairen9601
Ahh can you elaborate a bit. This sounds really interesting. Rode one of the cheaper versions myself.
@@fukairen9601 I have TCR advance pro from 2021, is say on the frame Taiwan.
My TCR composite from 2006 is still perfect. I quess the frame is oké?
Great video Cam. Well done. Giant TCR is usually considered a benchmark choice. Solid but boring option. It’s their BB that bring us the most work. Things tend to go wrong when someone has installed something other than the plastic BB from Shimano and the hole in the frame is not good enough for a more precisely made BB. The extra paint can cause issues with brake alignment sometimes. Thanks for making this vid.
good to see you posting here, was thinking of you while watching
We've used Chris King (when they made BB86) and Kogel without issues at our shop.
I have a kogel installed on my wife TCR advanced, dial gauge was happy & it got in smoothly.
C-Bear also possesses no issue
Great to see you on this chat @mapdec. My 2016 Defy non-drive side shimano bb86 bearing seized after 5 years. It rarely gets wet. I just it replaced however it would be interesting to know if there is an underlying reason.
Now for full transparency and fairness, cut open a BMC frame. With it being seen as a less desirable frame by the pros, it would be interesting to see how it stacks up.
The other reason Giant is an excellent choice is because Giant makes *many* other mainstream brands, and could be seen as what would be reasonably expected of others as well.
Hello Hambini fans! The uncut version of the chop shop is available on my channel! I made it whilst drinking. Thanks to cam for having me on the channel!
Thanks again for being involved Hambini! The link to your full video is also in the description of this one fyi. Here's to being contracted for the large sum of fucking zero. hahahaha
I suggest watching this, as it explains things better.
The "uncut" version, haha. You still cut the frame in half I'm sure
You guys are a superhero duo like Batman and Robin.
The most pompous pseudo engineer in all of india XD
3 mins in and I love the bike shop guys reaction and offer of a warranty frame instead. Then I think I yelled at the TV when dude was cutting the headtube with a recipricating saw and had his hand UNDERNEATH!! Exciting vid so far.
When did Hambini become an expert in carbon composites?
I don’t remember seeing him or his company repairing frames? I don’t recall ever seeing him being consulted on that subject before? Seems an odd choice? Is it the case now that anything bike related we just ask Hambini because he say’s everything is “shite” and the vast majority of people think that’s smart?
Luescher Teknik is the man you ask for this as he is legit an engineer in aerospace and an expert in carbon fiber.
Content and RUclips community... Habibi only looked at a couple of pictures across the planet, for clicks. If you want to say intelligent things about the frame you probably have to hold it in your hands.
sold Giant in Saudi Arabia for 10 years. in the 10 years i did with them, not one recall. i today own 5 Advanced SL ISP bikes built fromn the frame up including a 2024 TCR Adanced SL frameset. i did crack my 2012 frame when i hit a roadworks ditch pre-sunrise. wrote Giant. got a brand new 2018 TCR Advanced SL replacement. no questions asked.....
In saudi they blow up lambo engines and buy another lambo
@@AndrewTrudgianImportant knowledge in relation to Bicycles 👍🏻
Thermo or X-ray tomography NDT will tell you way more than visual inspection. No DSA or calorimetry? This is so Disney. BTW those are bladder imprints, not laminate wrinkles… and holidays, not voids.
Now THAT was a really cool video. I watch your stuff from time to time and really enjoyed this one. Thank you for going to the time and more over expense of doing this.
Should have gotten a couple warranty frames to cut open instead - including the more common frame without the integrate seat mast.
Very nice to see that GIANT frames bring quality :)!
Al i can say after owning a TCR for 5 Years without a problem i would keep buying them.25,000 miles approx and still on the same bottom bracket bearings
All my recent bikes have been giant, so I'm glad it just managed to squeak through the Hambini shite test, I don't know what I would do if it didn't, I guess I have so little faith in the industry that I wouldn't switch as I expect all manufacturers are similar.
Only few manufacturers are producing these frames anyways..
Same people making the same job with minor design differences. 😏
Giant guy was contemplating his whole life
haha, he loves his brand. You could tell.
Dude was sweatung like a pig, thinking what to I do if Cam cuts it open and it is bad… 😂
Bahahahahaha. My bike Mech (Joel) is saved in my phone as Giant Guy 🤣
as a TCR owener, that was good to see, as someone saving to buy that exact frameset, that was painful. good content though - considered & balanced
Excellent vid eventhough i wont be doing that to my giant frame. But then again im still riding my 2010 TCR advance SL. Still kicks arse! Please cut a LOOK frame up as Hambini loves em.
Look and Time would be excellent to have a look at
I liked the guy in the shops comment about the effort people have gone into to building the frame and it's a waste of resources to just cut it up
Great video Cam. Legit actual journalism- love it.
Giant’s warranty is great. I had a 6 year old frame that cracked and I got a replacement in no time.
huh, ok ill keep that in mind. i hope i get one to if the unfortunate happens
cannondale should take notes
Giant's xc frames are famous for needing that warranty!
I'm on my second xtc sl advanced frame. Giant did not quibble on replacing the original frame under warranty. I'm right now contemplating a Defy road frame.
@@seanparker7415 If you had bought a Pivot you wouldn't have needed that warranty support.
A great review...Hambini who is very critical but the benchmark when reviewing a product,Gary who is just a proper guy who knows his job,and of course you for blowing the money on the frame in the name of making a honest review!
knowing Hambini from his other videos - that was actually very positive review from him
As a mechanical engineer and industry insider, I can say without equivocation that Hambini is a fraud.
Of course it takes talent to see in others and why Hambini is given an audience by clueless people.
I always laugh when his advice is used as any sort of benchmark. He denigrates the industry to promote his bottom brackets as a panacea when his heavy, one piece bottom brackets degrade all frames they are used on. The public, not all, as a collective are technically clueless. I am not going to write a book on why wall section is only an element in the equation of structural integrity. Proof is how many frames fail in the field as in the case of Specialized Tarmac SL7, how many high watt riders ended up on their heads due to steerer failure which created the SL8 with revised cable routing retainer at the top of the steerer to reduce stress concentration. (example) Inspection, all though indicative, falls short of reality out in the field.
@@lechproteantruly. Hambini was stretching himself a bit by making some conclusions without being able to measure (and in some cases not being able to discern things from pictures). I thought he did an OK job of giving caveats, but I think even he would say some of the things he said were slightly too far on the side of conjecture to be as useful to the consumer as they would be if he had the physical item.
I think the obvious expert missing from this review is Raul @leuscherteknik I would love to get his impressions since he tends to be far less prone to playing for the camera.
Yes this is the response everyone needs to read. Its one thing saying product A looks nicer than product B - thats your call. But to infer that performance is degraded, based on insufficient information, or speaking ex-rectum for the camera, is not on. A good definition of an "expert" is someone who is clear on the boundaries of their knowledge, will demur and suggests instead you speak to an actual expert. Good call on Raul @@MrKipperfish
As a consumer i'm swaying on the side of Hambini's opinion here. Not premium but 'good quality' for a $4000+ frame is absolutely insane in my very personal opinion. That kind of money is nothing to sneeze at and for most people very hard earned crash. Let's also not forget we're talking about a naked frameset here. Including Groupset and wheels we're probably looking at something around 6k+. The trend of normalizing these crazy prices for "yeah, it's good i guess" needs to stop.
That's a relief. Just about to push the button on the advanced SL👍
Can’t beat em IMO. Great ride, great value.
I cannot leave this video without a comment, like and shout out. Great collaboration... Awesome!!
"That's not normal" 😂
This video not sponsored by Pas Normal
A warranty frame maybe with a paint defect would have been adequate. Hard watching destruction of new frame.
Unfortunately you could go and buy another and it may be totally different, but please don’t!!! 😬
Comparing warranties and customer service of brands would be more useful.
It wasn't hard for me at all.
Two great youtubers joining forces from across the globe. The guy selling that frame had the same kind of reaction I would have had. The pen is working!!
"That's not normal"
Cuts straight to frame destruction. Absolutely delicious.
Wishing you all at Team RCA a very Happy Christmas and a great 2024 thanks for so many interesting videos in 2023 keep them coming .
Cheers David! Many thanks for the support
Yes, a well-rounded evaluation of a carbon fiber frame. I'm so impressed that anyone would do this. Kudos!
The builders always complain about the architects, the architects complain about the builders. The engineers blame the mechanics, the mechanics think the engineers are stupid, and the software guy blames the hardware, the hardware guy blames the software. So it is. I'm inclined to listen to the guys working on them all the time.
This VID is AWESOME!! Thank you 😎💯👍 Watching with my popcorn 🍿🍿🍿
I think using a warranty frame was a good offer by the shop
That’s a really fair video. I like the way you approached this.
I’m a Hambini supporter and knew this video was coming. LOVE IT!!!! Even though you cut up a brand new TCR.
love Giant still riding a 2014 talon, that I got in Sep 2014.
Very interesting video….thanks Cam, well done!
10:17 or in other words the guys who know carbon and work with it day in day out say the frame is pretty good. Hambini, who doesn't work with it says otherwise.
Toyota quality is the highest compliment I care about. Gold standard is gold standard.
Happy Owner of a BMC SLR01 here. I bet if you cut one up it would look just like the Giant. Same with Sworks, Pinarello, Colnago, etc.
What about specialized frame? Do we have chance to see what is their quality
?
The Giant TCR frame is such an underrated product. First to market with the rear sloping tt which is now basically industry standard thanks to Mike Burrows. The XL geo is perfect for tall riders with a relaxed st and long tt.
The last time I had to make a warranty claim was for a Gary Fisher Joshua XO.I had a 12hr race a week away when I broke the frame. I called and they said they didn't have my exact frame in stock but they sent me the top model with the new rear shock adjustable on the fly and 2 day shipping. All free of charge. I will never forget how well they treated a nobody like myself. Customer service is paramount
Always enjoy the content, but good on the bike shop. I too think its terrible to trash products that much hard work went into just for some clicks. Better to use a warranty frame which would also be more illustrative of the failure modes?
It's just an extra variable though. Maybe whatever the frame had been through would have shown up in other spots other than the main point of damage, and then you would be wrongfully criticizing Giant for something that had nothing to do with them.
Welcome to modern society, it's all about being wasteful.
Cam's laugh is my favorite part of all of these videos 🤣
What a Christmas gift. Crossover of the year
5:00 I think it is logical walls are diferent thickness, since pedaling forces are quite predictable. Ever seen anyone pedaling backwards? I think there was some data supporting this manufacturing decision. Your bearing might feel squeezed, but is designed to handle uneven loads.
The Toyota analogy is spot on. You won't go far wrong with a Giant. Excellent frames. In the current market, some of the best (at any price). Getting a bit expensive now, mind. It would be interesting to see if other Giant manufactured brands like Colnago (non C series), Trek and Scott were any better, because they're a whole lot more expensive. I'd guess exactly the same QC, but all better than most other mass produced carbon.
Giant makes Trek high end frames, so I imagine the same quality goes in for their customers. Scott (which I own) and Cannondale are made by a smaller factory in Taiwan. It would be interesting to see one of those frames cut up.
The paint quality on both my aluminium trance x mtb and my wife's tcr is quite astonishing, next to my Cannondale and Bianchi it's pretty obvious 😂
Hiya Cam, big up for the video. Though did you reach out to BMC before deciding on the frame? Tah
Giant is pretty good value for the money. I've had good luck racing and training on them.
Cam. I miss watching you compete. But these videos are awesome
I liked the Toyota analogy. Isn't it the gold standard? Do you want to ride a McLaren bike wondering if they put enough glue in the chain stays?
I'd love to see inside a time frame, given how different they are manufacturing wise, and that they're supposed to epitomise craftsmanship and what not.
Great analysis - as always
Giant make great bikes.
There is huge danger from needless human overconsumption and people just waste a perfectly good frame that many people in developing countries can't afford for YT views when a legitimately lightly damaged or warranted frame can be found anywhere, a bit silly IMO.
Yes while I found the video interesting I couldn’t help feeling that a warranty frame would have been a far better idea.
Also imagine how many young riders with a low budget would kill for that frame to race with and it’s now in a scrap heap.
I understand where your coming from but there are literally individuals with not just hundreds of millions of dollars, but hundreds of billions of dollars. Put that into perspective.
Agreed but, like car safety (crash) testing, it needs to be done, as it protects the consumer.
The paint is thick so if it gets scratched it doesn't damage the frame so easily.
Polygon does that too, it's an Asian thing, overbuild things so nobody can complain things are breaking.
The Chinese frame manufacturers have to save costs so they don't do that.
Goes with the Toyota analogy actually, overbuilt.
As a bike park medic I cracked and snapped 6 Giant carbon frames in 1 year. My Trek alloy frame is now 2 years old and going strong yet only a few grams more weight
2:26 that gave me a fright
I rode bike, but I also mountain bike for many years and I enjoy my 2015 model carbon advanced XTC hard tail cross country bike that’s carbon have no issues with the frame or the bottom bracket shell . In fact it’s the original BB press fit . that’s the only giant product I own pretty tough frame I must say .
Giant are great bikes, glad to see it was acceptable. Hambini is great and his shite comment is standard, he does look for perfection. The Giant guy was typical of the attitude I have found dealing with them. Always willing to help out. Great video guys thanks.
Love it. How good was the Giant sales dude. Wanted to hug the bike close and never let it go.
He’s the store owner. Very passionate about his brand!
@@CamNicholls you can tell. What a legend.
looool Hambini's intro was brilliant
Thanks for the sacrifice. My '21 TCR has the same BB "thin bb cup" on one side, creaky BB's. Had to put a two piece thread together bb to stop the creaks. A friend of mine with a '23 TCR, same BB fate and resolution.
I did the same, and installed a Wheels M. 2 piece bb. Works great!
Love this but it genuinely breaks my heart you've done this. That guy in the shop will be grieving for days. 😂
The thickness around the BB could be by deign. The section around the chainstay and down side is thicker, where it needs to hold a high pressure.
Giant has a warranty on the paint. This is probably why the paint is much thicker than on other brands.
Another reason is the paint job itself. Looks like it has some effect in it, this can only be done by doing multiple layers of paint and clear coat.
I worked for Giant, sort of, my job was to sort out warranty claims of customers.
Interesting video! I ride a Giant TCR for 16 years now and no issues. So this is a testimony to Giant quality and value. Always have been interested in BMC bikes as well but your comments seem to lack confidence in the potential test results?
I read a few customer complaints about failing service by broken frames!
On German cycling fora..
The look on the dude's face when you told him what you were going to do... Good to not bite the hand that feeds you and props for stating such.
Great vid!
Incredible video!
We definitely all need to like this vid.... Cam needs some dollar and we need this content!
If you suspect delaminations or voids within the bonding areas, why not do some tap testing and/or cross section that area to confirm it?
My take on Hambini’s opinion is that he is not saying that it is a bad frame, he is just saying that it’s not a good enough frame for the asking price.
For that kind of money, every aspect including the roundness and the consistency of thickness of the BB shell ought to be 100% perfection. Not just “good enough “.
A Time Scylon frameset is the same MSRP, and you won’t likely find any such inconsistencies there.
You have x ray eyes or are just guessing?
@@motostarmx1777 You obviously did not read what I wrote, and obviously did not pay attention to Hambini’s report.
I disagree. Giant makes enough bikes to know what good enough means. 80/20 rule means it takes immense time to get to perfection, and people buy frames to ride them, not to look at the cross section of the BB shell. Ideas are cheap, like "paying for perfection". Meanwhile giant is the biggest manufacturer of frames and they know a thing or two about manufacturing.
@@pierrex3226 And yet they still churn out bad frames like crazy.
@@pierrex3226 And yet they are still churning out frames that are ridiculously out of spec and full of air bubbles.
Why do I care what's inside the frame? The frame has to be light, solid and that's all. Most carbon wheels and frames come from China or Taiwan. Carbon frames and parts from "reputable" companies also crack. Nobody says this, but if a Chinese frame breaks... it's Chinese scrap.
Interesting video. Thank you
Im 300-330 LBS at any given time, I ride Giant TCR/DEFY in San Diego County, notoriously bumpy and terrible streets, the suggested weight limit on these is 285 lbs. I'm pretty damn hard on these bikes and never once had an issue, at times I treat them both like gravel bikes, full damn well knowing I shouldn't -- Giant is just the brand everyone loves to love or loves to hate.
this is a good example of the difference between fit for purpose and best/perfect.....and getting the price/benefit ratio correct...clearly the frame is not perfect but is very good and will not be an issue for the majority of users - bearing in miond that most will change the frame before it gets close to end of life. I'm also reminded that for so long Toyota used a very basic digital clock that told the time.......did its job but no more.
Hambini was a Covid lockdown hero!!
wow, this content is the best, need more brands to cut their frame.
Funny enough, my giant defy bottom bracket didn’t pass well maybe now I have an idea why.
This video is amazing. Also #giant and the TCR SL is such a good bike
Forgot to weigh the frame. My 2018 giant tcr advanced rim frame is 1110g. Suspicious that the paint is chunky.
I don't know why the dude was knocking steerer tubes having internal fiberglass layers. They prevent galvanic corrosion. Some compression plugs get corroded and stuck inside steerer tubes. I apply grip paste to the steerer interior, but some people's sweat is something else. Having an extra non strucutural, inert layer there is prudent, same in seat tube interiors and bottom bracket shells
Thank you very useful for me !
As someone who has worked with carbon fibers before I get shivers seeing this. Not because of the value of the frame but carbon fibre particle are extremely itchy on the skin. When I have to cut CF it will always be outside in front of the biggest fan in my shop. There is no way to wash them off your skin. This must have itched for a few days.
I do not get that at all from CF, work with it every day, yes fibreglass.
Awesome video!! Slice up a canyon inflite slx next
dont you think, that the non uniform wall thicknes of the BB might be on purpose? because the bearing will not be loaded in the direction towards the headset? most force on the bearing will be downward and a bit to the back when sprinting
Thank You 🙏✌
I wouldn't be too upset with the quality of the frame. There is an argument to say with the amount you spend you should get perfection, but the cost isn't just in the quality, it's also in the labor, and the so called "brand tax". What I dont think Hambini is acknowledging with his review of he sliced open frame is what the cost would be IF Giant were to deliver a perfect frame. If there's the slightest void in the frame and Giant tosses it out that's more money for the so called "perfect" frame. And for what? Giant has most likely serialized at what point a frame has met quality assurance to where they can be certain that the frame wont fold in half at designated cyclist weight. On the off chance that does happen Giant will have service personal to review warranties. that's where the other cost of the frame go into.
I think Hambini's assessment on the flaws is valid, but also not something that needs concern consider when considering this frame from Giant. Maybe the bb, but that's more of a bike mechanic question and asking how often they see this model of Giant come in for a BB change over other frames and brands.
Giant seems to go a long way for quality. They build their own melting factory for producing Aluminium according to their own standard. Aluxx etc ...
Im concerned that the bottom bracket tube doesn’t not connect to both sides . The BB relies on the box section around it for strength rather than the tube surrounding the BB. Can the BB be over-tightened and damage the frame?
I think you should order a frame incognito and build from that one. Would probably be the most interesting for the viewers
as a Giant fan, this video is amazing to see..
Interesting video, I’ve always been a Giant fan for this very reason. I drive a Toyota as well 🤣 Now let’s see BMC put their money where their mouth is and freely offer up a frame for a slice & dice so the world can see what they’re paying for 😄
Can you perform this procedure with a S-Works or Pinarello?
If I’m not mistaken that shop owner was the infamous “Poadie the roadie” looking a few kilo’s heavier than his former racing weight. Good on ya boy.