A few years ago I had a high end bike shop. I had to take a trip to one of the manufacturers HQ's, and as we had a busy service dept, I found myself in the warranties and repair section. I was astounded at how many broken high end carbon MTB frames were hanging on the warranty racks. (Lets just say these frames cut like a surgical Scalpel) The warranty manager said that he had no problem giving a warranty replacement, as the customers had paid so much $$ for them. He did point out that they were breaking these Hi-Mod frames simply because they (the customer) were too heavy. These race machines were designed for superlight XC guys weighing 20kgs less than the wealthy guys buying them in the shops. The other thing he pointed out was that the sponsored riders will ride the bikes a few times, as well as having meticulous stripping, torque'ing and rebuilding while a team bike. The chunky exec who can afford the bike will never give it the servicing it requires. Hence them being so quick to warranty them.
I don't care for carbon at all anymore. For a hobby rider like me it is just fancy fluff. Hella expensive, frail on mishandling and not giving you any apreciable edge that another training session wouldn't. I don't see why I should fork out that money for... just bragging, really.
72 and still riding my steel and titanium tube frames. Was never that much into racing. Fascinating video about all the rapidly advancing details in bicycle design and manufacturing! Thank you.
@@letsgoletsgoletsgoletsgoletsgo I hear that. Always wanted a titanium frame set. A bike mechanic friend called me up one day and gifted me a titanium bicycle!
I got an Carbon fiber bike because of I don't know why. Carbon bikes do seem to have a more compliant ride which for me as a casual rider is the only benefit over aluminum. I paid $2400 for a carbon 105 bike where I could have gotten an aluminum 105 bike for around $1500
I so agree. I own a carbon, titanium, aluminum, and two steel bikes. But it is impossible to love any of them as much that, as as a kid, I loved my Evans-Colson single-speed coaster braked heavy steel bike with heavy additional steel decorative tanks. I even added a 50s car chrome hood ornament to the front fender! Probably put more miles on that than on any other bike owned since. For sure, having fun and enjoying riding has nothing to do with the weight of a bike. For everyday transportation, steel is just fine and it NEVER breaks. But I surely enjoyed the video too. Thanks to the creators! They are having the fun with these high-end carbon bikes that I had as a kid, and their enthusiasm shows it!
What an incredible video. I first saw Rob and his amazing company on GCN. They were dispelling the myth that you cannot fix carbon fiber. I watched Rob in January fly out to Texas with 24 hours notice to help Francis Cade and his buddy Justin to fix Justin’s carbon fiber hand pedal tricycle. Rob is an absolute treasure trove of industry behind the scenes information. This a a criminally under viewed video. Fingers crossed 🤞🏻 for more viewers soon. Brilliant stuff. 🥰
Thanks for your kind comment! Rob really is amazing and knows his stuff down to a tee! I've been speaking to him for a few months now and the fact that he is willing to create these videos is great for the industry as a whole. I have more videos coming from Rob... We cut up three frames on the day and each will have its own videos 👌🏼
Anyone who doesn’t “question authority” of the boomer Capitalists who love to😂force obsolescence for profits with complete disregard for the people or the planet. They don’t even have the decency to pay a liveable wage to their retail showroom employees. Anyone who makes the argument that manufacturers, especially the Americans, are justified in continuing this run-a-way fr8 train, is just protecting his future income. The guy repairs thousands of frames. Who would do such a thing?#MEgeneration #becausecapitalism #liveablewage
14000 carbon frames that he repaired? That is quite concerning number of failures of carbon frames. I wonder will all recorded failures of steel and titanium frames together be anywhere close to this number?
Agreed. Goes to show how well engineered are these heavyweight steel machines. Come think of it, even 1/15th of problems that carbon fiber users experience simply do not exist in the steel realm. Steel is soft and flexible. And even CrMo alloys while not being "stainless", still resist the corrosion very well. Tomorrow I am sending my 1981 Colnago frame to the paint booth. The frame is 42 years old and its structural integrity is not compromised. I would be scared to ride 4-year old carbon fiber frame.
I still race masters B grade Crits on my Columbus SLX frame with SSP down tube shifters. I have no intention of racing on a plastic bike and have never ridden aluminium or carbon.
@@tweed0929 I’m an old boy and I love my 40 year old 531c steel bike however my 1995 and 2003 carbon Colnago C40’s are both faster, more enjoyable to accelerate uphill and are considerably more comfortable over medium and longer distances. Zero issues with the frames and the carbon has definitely prolonged my involvement in the sport. That said, there is something about the ride and feel of steel that is that is hard to beat.
It's funny how manufacturers struggle hard to get a few grams off a bike frame, when most people who can afford to ride them could easily lose five or even ten kilograms without suffering from malnutrition.
Cyclists take things too seriously I used to be like that. Dedicated way too much of my life to cycling. It’s not an important activity in the grand scheme of things just ride if you want to and enjoy it. None of us are getting paid to do this.
Exactly, I understand on the racing teams the drive for lighter and faster. But a lot of average joes could do with a bit less of the LARP mindset. I myself started cycling for weight loss. Not only do I not want to spend thousands to save a glass of water worth of weight, but making the bike lighter is counterproductive to my objectives.
@@chimps4gimps Plenty of mountain bikers take this stuff way to seriously just like roadies. Less frowney group but the important thing is that a sport isn’t so important.
I couldn't agree more about the comments regarding torque. I carry a torque wrench in my tool kit on my bike but I don't know anyone else who does. Also, these are purpose built machines without a lot of room for use outside that purpose. Ultimately, if you buy a carbon race bike, you're getting exactly what you asked for, it's fast, it's light, it's strong within the parameters is was built for - but it's a very delicate piece of equipment and you better know it.
With all respect you should would use a torque wrench out on a ride as a rule. If you're tensioning up boltsbon a ride you might ask why this is being done
@@glennoc8585 In case of a crash that moves a lever, if you want to adjust your seat height or tilt, if someone else wants to change the angle of their bars or if their headset comes loose. I even torgue my axles...
Commenting on disk brakes as an engineer. I do have some issues with disks because it changes how loads are fed into the frame, not to mention the wheels/rims, it's a completely different dynamic system with long moment arms unlike rim brakes which remove the spoke system from the braking dynamics, they also feed loads into the strongest parts of the frame.
I have a Cannondale carbon frame with aluminum dropouts. I had that frame now for more than 10 years and I ride this bike about 5000-7000 km a year. I had no issues so far and I ride that bike in the cold winter and hot summer.
@@TheBenchPressMansome brands have dedicated production lines and on-site supervision (Specialized) whereas others don’t (Cervelo, Bianchi). China makes some of the highest tech products that require high tolerances, but any production line will mess up without care or supervision from the brands.
Well these same brands mentioned bellow used to pay Toby Stanton of HotTubes and many other small artisans (litespeed, merlin, etc) to help them build custom tour frames out of steel and even other hybrids. Now they are outsourcing their best to China. Bring back John Parker and the C26 produced in the USA
This is the gentleman who helped out Francis Cade on his coast to coast US trip. It might not be his intention but he's making me feel good about riding an aluminum bike (CAAD12). It's not the most advanced or high spec bike around but it works for me and doesn't suffer from the issues he's mentioned. CF is great for pro riders who don't have to soak up the costs for purchase & maintenance, but for normal people, good old fashioned metal frames might be a better way to go.
the last time i was in the market for a bike in 2018, i had the budget to buy either an alloy full sus trail bike OR a carbon hardtail XC bike. I sat down with my dad who was a engineer and we worked out that it was going to be more cost effective to buy the full sus alloy bike because i was expecting to keep the bike for about 10 years and although i'm not hard on my bikes, i do crash from time to time. This meant that the risk of seriously damaging a carbon bike in a crash and A) being without my transport and b) the potential of writing off £2.5K with no chance of recoving the money just made alloy make way more sense. I'm very happy with 2018 Vitus escarpe deore. Especially after i spent a grand on top of the purchase price in upgrades.
I have a ‘78 steel trek, a 706. It’s plenty light enough for me to get to get to work and go on trips with. Bike shops stopped selling bikes a long time ago. They sell the fantasy of being a racing cyclist.
I’m constantly amazed by how many carbon frame owners are completely unaware of the possibility of a broken derailleur hanger rendering their beloved frame useless. The combination of the ‘breakable’ hanger and the inability of carbon fiber to withstand the pressure when the derailleur jams between the hub and the seatstay creates a situation that may be acceptable to professionals with sponsor driven budgets. But the minuscule weight penalty of an aluminum dropout with an integral hanger (as per TREK 5200/5500) seems so much more proper for a consumer product. While the trend to through axles seems to answer the problem of erosion from torque shifting it does nothing in case of the broken hanger tragedy.
Trek 5200 here and you are100% correct. Rob is correct of course but today, they focus on performance and cost. Your 5-7K bike will not last beyond 5 years for all the reasons cited. 😞
I've happily stuck with my three 5200's , two since new from 2002 and 2007.. just upgrade the wheels and fresh groupset and they feel top dollar still 👌
@@Jonny_Red - There was a guy who did a great rebuild on his TDF 5200. He failed to do one thing: replace the fork. Replacing the fork is a safety requirement. It's on RUclips. His build was lovely but a year in he "decommissioned" it after the fork failed when he was going on it about 17mph and he took a spill with a broken collar bone. My LBS strongly recommended I replace my 5200 fork a couple of years back. He was right. I was able to get a Ritchey Comp from someone on eBay for not much. It not only improved the bike but it makes for a better safety profile/ride.
@@IronHorsey3 what was the issue with the fork? Is this something for all 5200s to consider or just a certain years models they made? Seeing as the 5200 was produced for a good decade 👍
@@Jonny_Red - Yeah, it's an age and risk issue as I understand it. The guy with the fork collapse was sad because his video was out for a bit showing his rebuild then it happened. Actually, I think his was a 5500, a Lance bike. My understanding is that the carbon fork risk is endemic with age to all the 5200s. My LBS has decades of experience. I didn't want to change the fork but was happy when listened to him. The Ritchey Comp fork was a nice improvement. When a fork explodes, I don't want to be on it. Maybe others can offer insight. I'm just noting the issue with such decades old Trek 5200 forks. The upside is a replacement fork will only make the bike better.
I am so glad I never got into a carbon/disc bike. I am beyond old school. I am antique. I still ride a 36 year old Bianchi MTB and love every moment of every ride. Oh! My bike will last another 30 years!
This is what this "carbon expert" said about my bottom bracket. Apparently my tolerances are too precise.... I leave you to make up your own mind. "We have seen this problem with Hambini bottom brackets before. The tolerances are too precise and the cycling industry’s are not. If we fit the BB, it may break again. Therefore, we will not fit this bottom bracket into this frame and would suggest you seek an alternative. " It later transpired the said bike had a 45.8mm hole to accept a bottom bracket of 46.00mm. The carbon repair experts didn't appear to have a basic micrometer. .
I could be missing something but that comment doesn't sound like an indictment on your bracket, just a statement on what to do to avoid breaking one particular bike frame. The expensive carbon frame had an imprecise tolerance and your part didn't fit. Finding an alternative part that does fit sounds like it'd be cheaper, quicker and easier. Bice manufacturers really should have better tolerances for their expensive frames, but if the industry as a whole doesn't do that it's probably just easier to use a less precisely built part
@@keineahnung0165 Yeh he actually is! Kind of like BikeSnobNYC or PeakTorque as they don't regurgitate the press release and aren't handcuffed by manufacturers whose advertisement money they need to stay solvent. As someone who works in aviation like Hambini, if the owners of bike companies accepted the same tolerances on aircraft as they did one their frames I can assure you they wouldn't fly.
I have been riding my 1995 steel frame for over a year now and I LOVE IT - it just rolls better and the comfort is great. My carbon bike is lighter (frame is 950g), yes, but the properties of my steel (Columbus SLX custom built) frame are just superior... I also ride my aluminium Pinarello Galileo and it also doesn't compare.
@@ReneArtoisMr no not an EM frame set, it was hand built at the MBK factory in France - I had 8 or 9 of those when riding for the Chazal-MBK pro team and the MBK amateur team.
My first real high quality road bike was built on a Basso SLX frame. I raced my first season as a Cat 4 in 1985 while serving in the military in Maryland. I loved that bike.
I bought a C40 in September and am amazed at how good it is. Certainly not the lightest but superbly engineered and beautifully constructed. I guess if you can't break it at Paris-Roubaix, you can't break it!
Are people aware of the name of Rob's company? Carbon can be repaired. Maybe I've been riding too long because I've also seen many cracked, repaired, or trashed metal frames. Great video, I paid attention and learned a lot.
Great video as always. The first thing I brought when I got my first carbon road bike was a torque wrench. The thought to over-torque my seat post on a 5k bike frighten me no end
I got them but over torque brake bit so need to get SRAM lever or so to replace, joy of just £4k bike but is 6.7kg so quite heavy Next bike is trek Emonda ALR disc I'm doing at maybe 6.88kg minimum, looking for titanium rails and carbon or something saddle and 22mm tubular at 100psi and remove padding in bike shorts for comfort
It stuns me they choose aluminium as an interface material with CF. I use a lot of titanium with CF in other fields (aviation related) and titanium's low coefficient of thermal expansion makes it an almost perfect match with chemical bonding, along with a range of additional benefits. It must be cost related, but that difference is not as big as you think (ti $20-60/kg), especially with the minor quantities used in bike frames.
Great information and experience from Rob! I've got a 20+ year old 2nd/third generation 2001 CF Trek 5200/5500 frame a little older than the Bianchi shown in the vid. In that era, there was a lot of discussion about the harsh ride of Carbon versus Steel. Construction was CF tubes+molded sections for the BB, seat post and head tube junctions. Compared to my Columbus SL Italian bike from 1980, it was fine. It's got aluminum drops and is a pretty standard geometry. It just works and works and works without much fuss. I attribute the longevity of the frame to the fact that it's over-built or "a little heavier" along with a classic traditional shape. At present, I've chosen a new bike from a well know premium manufacturer which is, not surprisingly, a standard triangle frame (though a slight sloper) geometry and I'm excited to see how far they've come with engineering flex characteristics.
My only experience in carbon is an older Specialized Tricross. It used Carbon seat stays, carbon fork and Aluminium frame. It is amazing you are going to lose all of this weight then we are going to add vibration control back into the seat and handlebars because the frame is so stiff. I could see that also be part of the trend toward supple tires. Can't wait till we have vibration control in the pedals by isolating the entire bottom bracket. I have always tried to figure out why full carbon bikes don't have bent seat stays and make the distance up by a mm or two so that it would have room to vibrate for the normal public. And maybe thats a better way to describe the Tricross rear end it doesn't move as much as it absorbs the vibrations. You will never see it move but you can feel a major different over an all Aluminium frame.
I worked for a carbon bike brand. Technical considerations are seldom paramount. A good business is primarily concerned with staying in business. Compeition makes it very tough for everyone. True technical considerations are forced a long way down the list of priorities for a successful brand.
@@walterhofer937 Obviously you have no idea how neoliberal capitalism works. Let me explain: MAKING MONEY IS PARAMOUNT. All else is secondary as long as the business can't be held liable in court. The frames are unreliable and break often after a few years? Wonderful, new sales opportunities! 🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑
Interesting comments on the use of Al in a carbon structure. As you say cte effects may be the use but as someone who has been involved in marine composites a big potential issue is corrosion of the Al. We never have them in contact-either a layer of glue film or thin glass laminate to electrically isolate the two materials is used
This Video helped me to keep my 2017 Diverge carbon frame which weighs almost 1300g. It is well made and will last a lifetime because of the extra carbonfiberlayering for safety reasons on gravel. I only use it as an allroadbike though.
Well i have a Bianchi 928 Carbon L 2010 It doesn't look anything like the one shown here. and Bianchi did honor the warranty for the broken frames. They went through a trial snd error. The 928 2009-2010is an awesome ride, never to be duplicated again. Stiff, fast, and surprisingly comfortable for long rides.
Very informative! I agree with pretty much everything he said. I have never had any problems with areas where the carbon is joined to aluminum, or carbon rims bonded to aluminum braking surfaces.
This video is brilliant! I loved seeing some of the evolution in the carbon frame industry. It’s eye opening as a consumer to see how far we have come in bike industry.
Around 7:30 I think the seat stay is dropped exactly to increase compliance. When the saddle is loaded, the seat stay is compressed, adding to the bending action of the seat tube.
I do it the other way around: My next everyday-bike is gonna be good old steel. Why? I don't go racing and i cant shit money. Carbon works for several years, aluminium for ten years and then you can still ride it but the stiffness gets lost the more you stress it, but steel is the only affordable Material that lasts for decades. My aluminium citytrekkingbike lasted way over 100k km in 22 years (11 bottom brackets were used up) but it got so damm soft and flexible compared to a new frame, the stiffness was completely gone. Leaning with the handlebar against a pole i could easyly move the saddle for 10 cm and more to each side without huge force before i started feeling a decent stiffness. With my fathers way over 200k km bike from the 90s made of steel, it feels exactly the same like it felt years ago. Mixing up the materials always was the thing in my brain that made me think: This cant work for a long time, impossible, why should i spend so much more money on something, where i can see on the very first view, that it is a kompromise instead of a solution. just for the few grams. The only remaining thing is the big flexibility in technical design. So when im gonna buy a Fullsuspensionbike for havbing a lot of fun even in the Bikepark, thats is the only bike where im gonna think about it in a few years, when fullcarbon has made it out of the superhighpricesegment and i dont see the mixup anymore.
Titanium alloy would seem to be a good material to make drop outs and bottom bracket housing sleeves from since it's coeficient of thermal expansion is only about 1/3rd that of aluminium alloy, and it's relatively light and has a much higher tensile strength, (Ti 6Al 4v) than does aluminium.
Actually owning that same cannondale model, you can see the frame flexing where the seat stays are, Rob's just missing that the stays lower down apply force toghether with the rider weight on the seatpost, applying a rotation with the fulcrum where the seat clamp is (the top tube can't stretch) so you have double the rider weight applying torque to the area, towards the back with seatpost, and towards the front with the stays , hence increasing the flexing/suspension effect. It's really clever and I can state that it DOES WORK. (hope it's clear enough, it's not easy not showing it and explaining in a foreign language)
So basically the bicycle evolution during last 10 years has been: - we are riding 7kg bikes with alloy low profile wheels - we want something lighter... let's put clincher carbon wheels, they are very expensive but we'll save 200 grams - omg... the braking is working badly - let's invent disc brakes, so the carbon wheels will work perfectly for everyone, even if a disc brake groupset will be more expensive - now that we have disc brakes, we have added 1kg overall weight (groupset fork and frame to accomodate discs) and the bike is heavier than 7kg... ... but at least it's way more expensive because of both carbon wheels and disc brakes! BINGO!
Hard to have empathy for bike manufacturers considering how expensive their top-tier frames cost and then consumers get stuck with figuring out solutions to problems they won't solve!
I still ride a rim brake bike with carbon clinchers but my regular training routes are pancake flat with no areas that require hard braking. If I was living in the hills I'd definitely be upgrading to discs.
As former free flying models competitor I was working with many composite matarials, before they were on the market, and with other exotic materials like titanium as well. I've got 1-st edition 2007 Scott Addict Ltd. When it's carbon dropouts started showing wear I've found composite material solution for it, avoiding both aluminium, and CF corelation problems in the future. My solution is few layers of kevlar fabric bonded into dropouts, with pre-shaped grooving for clamps.
Yesterday I was cruising along at 16mph on my old steel olmo giro 7 speed 23 /39/53 shimano rsx groupset when a guy on a stunning pinarello dogma passed me, I’m 54 and this guy was about 30ish so I upped the power and drafted him for about a mile until I turned off to go my way, now I was starting to blow a bit , my second ride in 4 months, now I gave £185 for this olmo giro last year because I felt nostalgic and it just struck me when I was right behind the dogma the price difference and it just reinforced everything we all know, it’s the rider and not the bike whatever marketing BS the bike industry comes out with!!!!! If my mate who does the Ironman had been on my bike he’d have blown that dogma away!!!!!
@@tweed0929 they’re great bike!! I hope the scumbag who nicked your bike fell of and fractured his skull!!! I had a steel fondriest years ago and some bell end stole it☹️ my mate who does iron man got a pinarello Prince and I told him my olmo was actually made with love and care in Italy unlike his plastic Chinese bike 🤣
@@julianmorris9951 yeah, ride quality of Olmo is hard to match. Even my Colnago Super lags behind in ride quality department. I adore its smooth character and it descends like on rails!
Coming from aerospace engineering here. I think I'd hesitate to put aluminum next to carbon due to the potential for galvanic corrosion of the aluminum part. (unless you could absolutely isolate it from moisture). Steel or Titanium would be better.
My wonderful 45 year old steel bike will still be on the road and giving its owner (whoever inherits it from me) so much joy long after every CF frame ever made is in a landfill.
Carbon fibre is an interesting material though I feel its a bit to disposable (unfortunately it does not dispose well). I still ride aluminium rims and bars on both my road and mountain bike. Everyone talks about how magical carbon fibre hoops feel, the set I had felt the same as the aluminium rims that I replaced them with. I suppose I am either too slow or too fast to notice.
I'll keep my 1992 Merlin Titanium engineered and designed by Tom Kellogg, Thank You. Of course, he's promoting carbon bikes, he repairs them for a living. My bike performs like new it is 31 years old. What is the lifespan of a carbon fiber bike frame? As long as you keep up the maintenance, it can last 5-7 years if used frequently. Infrequent use will stretch the lifespan to almost 10 year. Of course, it's good for the industry.
Thank you very much for this one. It is a very informative video for those (like me) who work on their own bikes, perform modifications/upgrades, make changes often, buy new stuff,experience accidents and suffer through various fixes here and there on CARBON bike frames. This guy really seems to know what he is talking about and should be a consumer advocate for the bike buying public in an effort to have changes made in our best interest.
Considering the price and ammount of technology in a bike, the customer should absolutely never be a beta tester and bug fixer as you say. There is absolutely no excuse for selling bad products at high prices and high volume.
Really awesome video and a lot of interesting information on carbon frames I wasn’t aware of. My only slight criticism is that guy off camera might not have been nessesary,but if so he could have gotten into the shot. Thanks for a great RUclips channel!
You stated the solution on drop outs. Do not bond the aluminum to carbon. Through pin the aluminum one per side with a compression bushing urethane. You have the connection of aluminum placed against wheel held in place with with a bushing against the frame.
I had a chrome molly steel 1996 Greg Lemond with Shimano parts. I put a bigger cog set on the rear and an XT MTB rear derailleur for climbing. I loved riding that bike! Coming down a fast twisting highway from skyline ridge, you could feel the steel flex yet tighten up, the steel flex was like a shock absorber. You had to go fast, 2 lane road, impatient cars so you had to go 35, 40 mph. There was a comfort, a reliability, a steady frame when things got rough. I am a bigger rider so frame weight is not number 1 for me. I agree 200 percent with you. I wonder if the extra cost of space age carbon really is worth it, if you are not racing at a high level.
Eye opening. I use a pair of 2013 48mm clincher carbon wheels with aluminium flanks. Both still running perfectly, maybe someday in the not so far future need replacement for the front wheel due to brake wear on the flanks.
I have a nice carbon road bike and a cheaper alloy bike I use in the winter. Honestly, I can’t see me buying another carbon bike. I love it but I’m getting fed up with pampering it. I want something that’s fast and robust and I think I’m going steel for my next bike.
Bill Mould identified a galvanic corrosion problem with cf wheels that use aluminum nipples. The aluminum nipples “rust”, I.e., gradually turn to aluminum oxide powder when water gets between the nipples and the carbon fiber.
That would just be more likely to move. The best solution for dropouts on carbon bikes is thru-axles, because they don't rely on tension and friction to prevent movement.
What about the Dura Ace wheels made with aluminum reinforced with carbon fiber? They have a good reputation. How do they compensate for the different thermal coefficients of expansion?
i lived in the US and i bought UK PlanetX Stealth Carbon years ago....i crashed and saw my bike bounced twice ahead of me...only got two dents - handlebar and pedal which i replaced...still using it to this day....its very very stiff and you can feel the ripples on the road...very fast too...feel lucky i have this carbon designed years ago
Interesting to hear that the carbon frame survived. From what I have learn in the last few videos, It's much stronger than I thought. I couldn't even break a fork blade half chopped in the video ruclips.net/video/okRKrTVzDho/видео.html
Calling this evolution is a stretch! Change? For sure. Let's remember Cannondale made a bike under the UCI weight limit with just 3 carbon tube sections bonded into what was essentially an aluminum bike frame. Carbon fork of course but aluminum wheels, Q/R skewers and rim brakes. Since then the industry has f__ked around with carbon rims pinched by brake calipers (as noted here) that worked terribly...so discs were the answer...but didn't play nice with Q/R's so we get thru-axles. And they still have to weigh 6.8 kgs so the only thing truly lighter in the process is the buyer's bank account balance while wheels are harder to remove, brakes harder to service and bike frames are light potato chips...riders eat 'em one after another, making a nice biz for Mr. Carbon Repair.
Я боюсь покупать титановый велосипед потому что он абсолютно не ремонтопригоден.на ебей много поломанных титановых рам.только странно что их покупают за 300 евро
I'd love to hear this man's opinion on Cannondale's Topstone gravel bike. It's kingpin suspension in the seat tube, I believe, solves that lack of compliance he was talking about.
im in the automotive industry and were starting to look at carbon for consumer level vehicles just due to the increase weight from electrification were right now looking at using TPU bushings between metal and carbon surfaces as it allows for seasonal expansion and contraction without putting strain on the carbon
I have experience on different steel frames..... and they do feel different. It can be wall thickness of the tubes, angles, builder skills, etc. Carbon just gives even more options which is nice. I have an older mountain bike with aluminum into carbon seat stays and it's been fine. Both are rocky mountain mtb's from 2009. I like the early carbon era since they left the exposed carbon fiber look, still something I like to this day.
As someone who rides solo for fun and fitness, this video made me appreciate my early 1980s Ishiwata steel frame Trek even more. I crashed trying to get back on the pavement from a low shoulder and, on another occasion, got knocked down by a car that made a right turn and almost ran over me and, except for the paint in a few spots, the Trek frameset is still in perfect condition.
Love the idea of the derailer hanger being used as an aluminum mating surface for the drop out but I have had an SL6 where that hanger broke and destroyed my dropout at the same time.
There was a wise man once said( I think he was an engineer working for TF tuned or some race department? It was nearly 20+yrs ago it was when the first carbon mountain bikes was being massed produced, and he said “light, strong, cheap, pick two”….and I have still lived by that motto today
The TVT frames had Aluminum lugs and carbon tubes. Many of them are still in use today 30+ years old and still fine. I understand the difference in thermal expansion between aluminum and Carbon but modern epoxies can be specified to allow for some movement without cracking. In principle, yes it's shouldn't work but with the right epoxy it's not a problem.
Exactly. Too bad a lot of people will watch this video and assume carbon frames are just a dispensable item. Materials and assembly processes are too wide of a subject. I would advise people to go as they wish as long as the warranty is long enough. If you wanna go carbon, lifetime warranty.
Why not use mechanical adhesion (i.e. fins) on aluminum fittings as well as bonding agents in the layups? It would prevent torsion which breaks free the adhesive. Seems thinner fittings would reduce the temperature issues as well. Most problems with BB’s are conditional to shape rather than material. If tolerances were more strick, wear would be greatly reduced and insert sleeves receiving far less load factors.
Not sure I understand his comments about the lower seat stays. The weight on the back wheel is pushing the seat stays forwards into the seat tube, so it will be flexing it in the same direction as your weight on the saddle, which should improve comfort.
I was on the verge of buying a new set of deep section aero wheels for my rim brake bike, and I'm glad I didn't. The thought of damaging the side walls, and probably worse braking than my wheels with an aluminum braking surface. It made more sense to just build a new disc road bike.
@@cccpkingu I was referring to many Aero wheelsets that don't have an aluminum braking surface, which will wear out the Carbon sidewalls of the wheels over time.
I have got two Look, kg191 and 586 team. And I dos not feel any issues about bottom brackets. Even here in Seville where the temp reaches 40..45° in the summer
Thank you for the warning about the dangers of using carbon fabricated frame bikes and carbon fabricated bicycle parts. It is safe to use the steel and aluminum bicycle frames and parts! Safety first before the fashions. Thanks for this video!
what torque would be recommended on carbon frame and seatpost to get it clamped and dont destroy the carbon? My dealer told me if i hear a noise its too much ... said and done, i heared a little noise ans stoped screwing -> after 2km seat post was going down and i forgot my tool at home -.-
one thing not noted that actualy is the bigest problem with the aluminum and cfrp combination is corrosion, basically cfrp corrodes aluminum when both are in contact. so you either use stainless steel (heavy) or titanium (really expansive) or you need to isolate the cfrp pro the aluminum part with kevlar or glass plies.
And they work amazing! Because they use good bonding procedures with bond line thickness controls etc, galvanic isolation for aluminum or compatible metals like titanium, stainless steels etc. When a bit of thought is involved in the design it works as intended! Very well!
That guy is brilliant. I'm supposing that the best frame design would be for the top tube to go directly to the rear dropout to allow more tuning of the seat post.. It would look awful but that's because I love the look of a parallel top tube bike
Watch us cut up a carbon frame here - ruclips.net/video/wn60LWtKgx0/видео.html
God hates speed.
Tell us about the environmental impact of various types of frames
"Here’s your high end frame, mr. / ms. Customer. Please have some empathy if it’s not up to par, ok? That’ll be $5,000 please. "
lugged steel ftw
A few years ago I had a high end bike shop. I had to take a trip to one of the manufacturers HQ's, and as we had a busy service dept, I found myself in the warranties and repair section. I was astounded at how many broken high end carbon MTB frames were hanging on the warranty racks. (Lets just say these frames cut like a surgical Scalpel)
The warranty manager said that he had no problem giving a warranty replacement, as the customers had paid so much $$ for them. He did point out that they were breaking these Hi-Mod frames simply because they (the customer) were too heavy. These race machines were designed for superlight XC guys weighing 20kgs less than the wealthy guys buying them in the shops. The other thing he pointed out was that the sponsored riders will ride the bikes a few times, as well as having meticulous stripping, torque'ing and rebuilding while a team bike. The chunky exec who can afford the bike will never give it the servicing it requires. Hence them being so quick to warranty them.
The words of wisdom
I don't care for carbon at all anymore. For a hobby rider like me it is just fancy fluff. Hella expensive, frail on mishandling and not giving you any apreciable edge that another training session wouldn't. I don't see why I should fork out that money for... just bragging, really.
72 and still riding my steel and titanium tube frames. Was never that much into racing.
Fascinating video about all the rapidly advancing details in bicycle design and manufacturing!
Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
im loving my steel bikes :) Ti bikes looks amazing tbh , but oh so expensive :)
@@letsgoletsgoletsgoletsgoletsgo
I hear that. Always wanted a titanium frame set. A bike mechanic friend called me up one day and gifted me a titanium bicycle!
I got an Carbon fiber bike because of I don't know why. Carbon bikes do seem to have a more compliant ride which for me as a casual rider is the only benefit over aluminum. I paid $2400 for a carbon 105 bike where I could have gotten an aluminum 105 bike for around $1500
I so agree. I own a carbon, titanium, aluminum, and two steel bikes. But it is impossible to love any of them as much that, as as a kid, I loved my Evans-Colson single-speed coaster braked heavy steel bike with heavy additional steel decorative tanks. I even added a 50s car chrome hood ornament to the front fender! Probably put more miles on that than on any other bike owned since. For sure, having fun and enjoying riding has nothing to do with the weight of a bike. For everyday transportation, steel is just fine and it NEVER breaks.
But I surely enjoyed the video too. Thanks to the creators! They are having the fun with these high-end carbon bikes that I had as a kid, and their enthusiasm shows it!
What an incredible video. I first saw Rob and his amazing company on GCN. They were dispelling the myth that you cannot fix carbon fiber. I watched Rob in January fly out to Texas with 24 hours notice to help Francis Cade and his buddy Justin to fix Justin’s carbon fiber hand pedal tricycle. Rob is an absolute treasure trove of industry behind the scenes information. This a a criminally under viewed video. Fingers crossed 🤞🏻 for more viewers soon. Brilliant stuff. 🥰
Thanks for your kind comment! Rob really is amazing and knows his stuff down to a tee!
I've been speaking to him for a few months now and the fact that he is willing to create these videos is great for the industry as a whole.
I have more videos coming from Rob... We cut up three frames on the day and each will have its own videos 👌🏼
Anyone who doesn’t “question authority” of the boomer Capitalists who love to😂force obsolescence for profits with complete disregard for the people or the planet. They don’t even have the decency to pay a liveable wage to their retail showroom employees.
Anyone who makes the argument that manufacturers, especially the Americans, are justified in continuing this run-a-way fr8 train, is just protecting his future income.
The guy repairs thousands of frames.
Who would do such a thing?#MEgeneration #becausecapitalism #liveablewage
Thanks Tinman. I’m happy to help folk understand carbon because of RUclipsrs such as Jourdain.
😊){oiīc😊
14000 carbon frames that he repaired? That is quite concerning number of failures of carbon frames. I wonder will all recorded failures of steel and titanium frames together be anywhere close to this number?
This video reassures me at how glad I am that I have never fallen down the carbon rabbit hole, and have been left behind with a steel frame.
Steel is real and for me a simple human cyclist..... It lasts decades.
Agreed. Goes to show how well engineered are these heavyweight steel machines. Come think of it, even 1/15th of problems that carbon fiber users experience simply do not exist in the steel realm. Steel is soft and flexible. And even CrMo alloys while not being "stainless", still resist the corrosion very well. Tomorrow I am sending my 1981 Colnago frame to the paint booth. The frame is 42 years old and its structural integrity is not compromised. I would be scared to ride 4-year old carbon fiber frame.
I still race masters B grade Crits on my Columbus SLX frame with SSP down tube shifters. I have no intention of racing on a plastic bike and have never ridden aluminium or carbon.
@@tweed0929 I’m an old boy and I love my 40 year old 531c steel bike however my 1995 and 2003 carbon Colnago C40’s are both faster, more enjoyable to accelerate uphill and are considerably more comfortable over medium and longer distances. Zero issues with the frames and the carbon has definitely prolonged my involvement in the sport. That said, there is something about the ride and feel of steel that is that is hard to beat.
Carbon = for people who have money, Aluminium/Steel = for poor people. It’s as simple as that.
It's funny how manufacturers struggle hard to get a few grams off a bike frame, when most people who can afford to ride them could easily lose five or even ten kilograms without suffering from malnutrition.
Cyclists take things too seriously I used to be like that. Dedicated way too much of my life to cycling. It’s not an important activity in the grand scheme of things just ride if you want to and enjoy it. None of us are getting paid to do this.
Exactly, I understand on the racing teams the drive for lighter and faster. But a lot of average joes could do with a bit less of the LARP mindset.
I myself started cycling for weight loss. Not only do I not want to spend thousands to save a glass of water worth of weight, but making the bike lighter is counterproductive to my objectives.
@@David.. Road cyclists maybe 😂 Over here in the off road community we're just having fun and trying not to crash too hard 😋
@@chimps4gimps Plenty of mountain bikers take this stuff way to seriously just like roadies. Less frowney group but the important thing is that a sport isn’t so important.
Just taking a pre ride dump would be the equivalent of a thousand quids worth of weight saving.
I couldn't agree more about the comments regarding torque. I carry a torque wrench in my tool kit on my bike but I don't know anyone else who does. Also, these are purpose built machines without a lot of room for use outside that purpose. Ultimately, if you buy a carbon race bike, you're getting exactly what you asked for, it's fast, it's light, it's strong within the parameters is was built for - but it's a very delicate piece of equipment and you better know it.
I got my preset torque key not long ago (Prestacycle Pro Torque Key) and I plan to bring it along on my future rides.
Good point!!
With all respect you should would use a torque wrench out on a ride as a rule. If you're tensioning up boltsbon a ride you might ask why this is being done
@@glennoc8585 In case of a crash that moves a lever, if you want to adjust your seat height or tilt, if someone else wants to change the angle of their bars or if their headset comes loose. I even torgue my axles...
Just dont overthight😅 and torque it to spec when u arrive home
Commenting on disk brakes as an engineer. I do have some issues with disks because it changes how loads are fed into the frame, not to mention the wheels/rims, it's a completely different dynamic system with long moment arms unlike rim brakes which remove the spoke system from the braking dynamics, they also feed loads into the strongest parts of the frame.
Interesting to hear!
I have a Cannondale carbon frame with aluminum dropouts. I had that frame now for more than 10 years and I ride this bike about 5000-7000 km a year. I had no issues so far and I ride that bike in the cold winter and hot summer.
I have no sympathy for the top tier manufacturers not meeting bearing tolerances when they charge $5k for a frame alone.
Joke of a comment, these are all made in the same factories in china
@@TheBenchPressMansome brands have dedicated production lines and on-site supervision (Specialized) whereas others don’t (Cervelo, Bianchi). China makes some of the highest tech products that require high tolerances, but any production line will mess up without care or supervision from the brands.
They deserve zero sympathy
Well these same brands mentioned bellow used to pay Toby Stanton of HotTubes and many other small artisans (litespeed, merlin, etc) to help them build custom tour frames out of steel and even other hybrids. Now they are outsourcing their best to China. Bring back John Parker and the C26 produced in the USA
And they only cost $500 to make
This is the gentleman who helped out Francis Cade on his coast to coast US trip. It might not be his intention but he's making me feel good about riding an aluminum bike (CAAD12). It's not the most advanced or high spec bike around but it works for me and doesn't suffer from the issues he's mentioned. CF is great for pro riders who don't have to soak up the costs for purchase & maintenance, but for normal people, good old fashioned metal frames might be a better way to go.
I loved that Rob went to help Justin. What a great man and those 2 provided daily entertainment and joy to my life.
CAAD12 is a very very cool bike
Caadx myself with a few upgrades. It just works, period. And my bottom bracket has never had any issues.
the last time i was in the market for a bike in 2018, i had the budget to buy either an alloy full sus trail bike OR a carbon hardtail XC bike. I sat down with my dad who was a engineer and we worked out that it was going to be more cost effective to buy the full sus alloy bike because i was expecting to keep the bike for about 10 years and although i'm not hard on my bikes, i do crash from time to time. This meant that the risk of seriously damaging a carbon bike in a crash and A) being without my transport and b) the potential of writing off £2.5K with no chance of recoving the money just made alloy make way more sense.
I'm very happy with 2018 Vitus escarpe deore. Especially after i spent a grand on top of the purchase price in upgrades.
Definitely. I‘ll stick to my titanium frame. Never let’s me down!
This man isn‘t a ‚I know it all‘ kind of expert but a honest and really interested guy. Amazing!
I have a ‘78 steel trek, a 706. It’s plenty light enough for me to get to get to work and go on trips with. Bike shops stopped selling bikes a long time ago. They sell the fantasy of being a racing cyclist.
With one exception, the bicycle paradise Netherlands 🤔
I could listen to this guy all day. Incredibly modest guy. Good channel.
I'll just stick with high-end steel. I'm not trying to go pro at 40 years old. I still enjoyed the video
I’m constantly amazed by how many carbon frame owners are completely unaware of the possibility of a broken derailleur hanger rendering their beloved frame useless. The combination of the ‘breakable’ hanger and the inability of carbon fiber to withstand the pressure when the derailleur jams between the hub and the seatstay creates a situation that may be acceptable to professionals with sponsor driven budgets. But the minuscule weight penalty of an aluminum dropout with an integral hanger (as per TREK 5200/5500) seems so much more proper for a consumer product. While the trend to through axles seems to answer the problem of erosion from torque shifting it does nothing in case of the broken hanger tragedy.
Trek 5200 here and you are100% correct. Rob is correct of course but today, they focus on performance and cost. Your 5-7K bike will not last beyond 5 years for all the reasons cited. 😞
I've happily stuck with my three 5200's , two since new from 2002 and 2007.. just upgrade the wheels and fresh groupset and they feel top dollar still 👌
@@Jonny_Red - There was a guy who did a great rebuild on his TDF 5200. He failed to do one thing: replace the fork. Replacing the fork is a safety requirement.
It's on RUclips. His build was lovely but a year in he "decommissioned" it after the fork failed when he was going on it about 17mph and he took a spill with a broken collar bone.
My LBS strongly recommended I replace my 5200 fork a couple of years back. He was right. I was able to get a Ritchey Comp from someone on eBay for not much. It not only improved the bike but it makes for a better safety profile/ride.
@@IronHorsey3 what was the issue with the fork? Is this something for all 5200s to consider or just a certain years models they made? Seeing as the 5200 was produced for a good decade 👍
@@Jonny_Red - Yeah, it's an age and risk issue as I understand it. The guy with the fork collapse was sad because his video was out for a bit showing his rebuild then it happened. Actually, I think his was a 5500, a Lance bike. My understanding is that the carbon fork risk is endemic with age to all the 5200s. My LBS has decades of experience. I didn't want to change the fork but was happy when listened to him. The Ritchey Comp fork was a nice improvement. When a fork explodes, I don't want to be on it.
Maybe others can offer insight. I'm just noting the issue with such decades old Trek 5200 forks. The upside is a replacement fork will only make the bike better.
I am so glad I never got into a carbon/disc bike. I am beyond old school. I am antique. I still ride a 36 year old Bianchi MTB and love every moment of every ride. Oh! My bike will last another 30 years!
Same here. I still have my caad 10. I crashed one and bought another caad 10
This is what this "carbon expert" said about my bottom bracket. Apparently my tolerances are too precise.... I leave you to make up your own mind.
"We have seen this problem with Hambini bottom brackets before. The tolerances are too precise and the cycling industry’s are not. If we fit the BB, it may break again. Therefore, we will not fit this bottom bracket into this frame and would suggest you seek an alternative. "
It later transpired the said bike had a 45.8mm hole to accept a bottom bracket of 46.00mm. The carbon repair experts didn't appear to have a basic micrometer. .
I could be missing something but that comment doesn't sound like an indictment on your bracket, just a statement on what to do to avoid breaking one particular bike frame. The expensive carbon frame had an imprecise tolerance and your part didn't fit. Finding an alternative part that does fit sounds like it'd be cheaper, quicker and easier. Bice manufacturers really should have better tolerances for their expensive frames, but if the industry as a whole doesn't do that it's probably just easier to use a less precisely built part
@@FriedPieBlues My point is this carbon expert couldn't diagnose a basic and common fault. He assumes a less precise bottom bracket is slacker.
@Hambini And u are god?
@@keineahnung0165 Yeh he actually is! Kind of like BikeSnobNYC or PeakTorque as they don't regurgitate the press release and aren't handcuffed by manufacturers whose advertisement money they need to stay solvent. As someone who works in aviation like Hambini, if the owners of bike companies accepted the same tolerances on aircraft as they did one their frames I can assure you they wouldn't fly.
Saw your comment hambini. Skipping the video :)
I have been riding my 1995 steel frame for over a year now and I LOVE IT - it just rolls better and the comfort is great. My carbon bike is lighter (frame is 950g), yes, but the properties of my steel (Columbus SLX custom built) frame are just superior... I also ride my aluminium Pinarello Galileo and it also doesn't compare.
Good to hear a comparison between the three. I think. should do a few builds with Ali and steel in the future 👍🏽
try "tenax", titainium, renolds, some "bertine" alloys....thier all different
Are you talking about an “Eddy Merckx” custom built? They built steel bikes from Columbus steel tubes.
@@ReneArtoisMr no not an EM frame set, it was hand built at the MBK factory in France - I had 8 or 9 of those when riding for the Chazal-MBK pro team and the MBK amateur team.
My first real high quality road bike was built on a Basso SLX frame. I raced my first season as a Cat 4 in 1985 while serving in the military in Maryland. I loved that bike.
What a surprise, Ray Liotta is a carbon expert. I love your channel
Haha! He does look like Ray Liotta.
RIP Ray
Makes me really appreciate my Colnago C40 even more... as these things are still out on the road and you really never hear an issue.
I bought a C40 in September and am amazed at how good it is. Certainly not the lightest but superbly engineered and beautifully constructed. I guess if you can't break it at Paris-Roubaix, you can't break it!
They aren’t the strongest of frames - their weight limit is fairly low compared to some. Same with Factor.
@@rockmountbmxer what aren't strong?
Are people aware of the name of Rob's company? Carbon can be repaired. Maybe I've been riding too long because I've also seen many cracked, repaired, or trashed metal frames.
Great video, I paid attention and learned a lot.
Great video as always. The first thing I brought when I got my first carbon road bike was a torque wrench. The thought to over-torque my seat post on a 5k bike frighten me no end
I actually did the same for the same reason 😅
I got them but over torque brake bit so need to get SRAM lever or so to replace, joy of just £4k bike but is 6.7kg so quite heavy
Next bike is trek Emonda ALR disc I'm doing at maybe 6.88kg minimum, looking for titanium rails and carbon or something saddle and 22mm tubular at 100psi and remove padding in bike shorts for comfort
It stuns me they choose aluminium as an interface material with CF. I use a lot of titanium with CF in other fields (aviation related) and titanium's low coefficient of thermal expansion makes
it an almost perfect match with chemical bonding, along with a range of additional benefits.
It must be cost related, but that difference is not as big as you think (ti $20-60/kg), especially with the minor quantities used in bike frames.
So Carbon Titanium hybrids could be a thing. Stiff parts from Carbon and compliance from Titanium?
I see Moots uses 3D printed titanium dropouts in at least one of its frames. Perhaps 3D printing is a viable solution?
Great information and experience from Rob! I've got a 20+ year old 2nd/third generation 2001 CF Trek 5200/5500 frame a little older than the Bianchi shown in the vid. In that era, there was a lot of discussion about the harsh ride of Carbon versus Steel. Construction was CF tubes+molded sections for the BB, seat post and head tube junctions. Compared to my Columbus SL Italian bike from 1980, it was fine. It's got aluminum drops and is a pretty standard geometry. It just works and works and works without much fuss. I attribute the longevity of the frame to the fact that it's over-built or "a little heavier" along with a classic traditional shape. At present, I've chosen a new bike from a well know premium manufacturer which is, not surprisingly, a standard triangle frame (though a slight sloper) geometry and I'm excited to see how far they've come with engineering flex characteristics.
My only experience in carbon is an older Specialized Tricross. It used Carbon seat stays, carbon fork and Aluminium frame. It is amazing you are going to lose all of this weight then we are going to add vibration control back into the seat and handlebars because the frame is so stiff. I could see that also be part of the trend toward supple tires. Can't wait till we have vibration control in the pedals by isolating the entire bottom bracket. I have always tried to figure out why full carbon bikes don't have bent seat stays and make the distance up by a mm or two so that it would have room to vibrate for the normal public. And maybe thats a better way to describe the Tricross rear end it doesn't move as much as it absorbs the vibrations. You will never see it move but you can feel a major different over an all Aluminium frame.
I worked for a carbon bike brand. Technical considerations are seldom paramount. A good business is primarily concerned with staying in business. Compeition makes it very tough for everyone. True technical considerations are forced a long way down the list of priorities for a successful brand.
Obviously that's non.sense.
@@walterhofer937 Erm... Cannondale?
👏👏❤️❤️👏👏❤️yep
@@walterhofer937 Obviously you have no idea how neoliberal capitalism works.
Let me explain: MAKING MONEY IS PARAMOUNT. All else is secondary as long as the business can't be held liable in court. The frames are unreliable and break often after a few years? Wonderful, new sales opportunities! 🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑
Interesting comments on the use of Al in a carbon structure. As you say cte effects may be the use but as someone who has been involved in marine composites a big potential issue is corrosion of the Al. We never have them in contact-either a layer of glue film or thin glass laminate to electrically isolate the two materials is used
This Video helped me to keep my 2017 Diverge carbon frame which weighs almost 1300g. It is well made and will last a lifetime because of the extra carbonfiberlayering for safety reasons on gravel. I only use it as an allroadbike though.
*weighs. Weight is a noun, weigh is a verb.
@@shimshonbendan8730Have you teached grammar?
Well i have a Bianchi 928 Carbon L 2010 It doesn't look anything like the one shown here. and Bianchi did honor the warranty for the broken frames. They went through a trial snd error. The 928 2009-2010is an awesome ride, never to be duplicated again. Stiff, fast, and surprisingly comfortable for long rides.
I have found a carbon seat post that bends back, is a pretty good way of getting some comfort.
Very informative! I agree with pretty much everything he said. I have never had any problems with areas where the carbon is joined to aluminum, or carbon rims bonded to aluminum braking surfaces.
Fabric bikes are so light, but my old columbus steel framed bike still rides quite nicely.
This video is brilliant! I loved seeing some of the evolution in the carbon frame industry. It’s eye opening as a consumer to see how far we have come in bike industry.
👍🏽
This gentleman who has the repair company is so knowledgeable. Fascinating to listen too.
what a nice guy, giving it as it is, to both consumer and manufacturers...
Around 7:30 I think the seat stay is dropped exactly to increase compliance. When the saddle is loaded, the seat stay is compressed, adding to the bending action of the seat tube.
I was thinking that too but I'm not sure if it is true? Would be interesting to see data or designer decisions.
I do it the other way around: My next everyday-bike is gonna be good old steel. Why? I don't go racing and i cant shit money. Carbon works for several years, aluminium for ten years and then you can still ride it but the stiffness gets lost the more you stress it, but steel is the only affordable Material that lasts for decades.
My aluminium citytrekkingbike lasted way over 100k km in 22 years (11 bottom brackets were used up) but it got so damm soft and flexible compared to a new frame, the stiffness was completely gone. Leaning with the handlebar against a pole i could easyly move the saddle for 10 cm and more to each side without huge force before i started feeling a decent stiffness. With my fathers way over 200k km bike from the 90s made of steel, it feels exactly the same like it felt years ago.
Mixing up the materials always was the thing in my brain that made me think: This cant work for a long time, impossible, why should i spend so much more money on something, where i can see on the very first view, that it is a kompromise instead of a solution. just for the few grams. The only remaining thing is the big flexibility in technical design. So when im gonna buy a Fullsuspensionbike for havbing a lot of fun even in the Bikepark, thats is the only bike where im gonna think about it in a few years, when fullcarbon has made it out of the superhighpricesegment and i dont see the mixup anymore.
Titanium alloy would seem to be a good material to make drop outs and bottom bracket housing sleeves from since it's coeficient of thermal expansion is only about 1/3rd that of aluminium alloy, and it's relatively light and has a much higher tensile strength, (Ti 6Al 4v) than does aluminium.
Exactly what I was thinking...And harder than al too, super corrosion resistant, so will outlast everything.
Isn't it rather difficult to engineer though?
@@richardhall4830 Yes, but it's well known in aerospace applications. Some increase cost in the product VS product lifetime cost.
My 15 year old Parlee has ti drop outs and threaded BB - it looks and performs like new after 200,000 km's
Titanium can be brittle under impact
Actually owning that same cannondale model, you can see the frame flexing where the seat stays are, Rob's just missing that the stays lower down apply force toghether with the rider weight on the seatpost, applying a rotation with the fulcrum where the seat clamp is (the top tube can't stretch) so you have double the rider weight applying torque to the area, towards the back with seatpost, and towards the front with the stays , hence increasing the flexing/suspension effect. It's really clever and I can state that it DOES WORK.
(hope it's clear enough, it's not easy not showing it and explaining in a foreign language)
So basically the bicycle evolution during last 10 years has been:
- we are riding 7kg bikes with alloy low profile wheels
- we want something lighter... let's put clincher carbon wheels, they are very expensive but we'll save 200 grams
- omg... the braking is working badly
- let's invent disc brakes, so the carbon wheels will work perfectly for everyone, even if a disc brake groupset will be more expensive
- now that we have disc brakes, we have added 1kg overall weight (groupset fork and frame to accomodate discs) and the bike is heavier than 7kg...
... but at least it's way more expensive because of both carbon wheels and disc brakes!
BINGO!
Hard to have empathy for bike manufacturers considering how expensive their top-tier frames cost and then consumers get stuck with figuring out solutions to problems they won't solve!
I still ride a rim brake bike with carbon clinchers but my regular training routes are pancake flat with no areas that require hard braking. If I was living in the hills I'd definitely be upgrading to discs.
As former free flying models competitor I was working with many composite matarials, before they were on the market, and with other exotic materials like titanium as well. I've got 1-st edition 2007 Scott Addict Ltd. When it's carbon dropouts started showing wear I've found composite material solution for it, avoiding both aluminium, and CF corelation problems in the future. My solution is few layers of kevlar fabric bonded into dropouts, with pre-shaped grooving for clamps.
Yesterday I was cruising along at 16mph on my old steel olmo giro 7 speed 23 /39/53 shimano rsx groupset when a guy on a stunning pinarello dogma passed me, I’m 54 and this guy was about 30ish so I upped the power and drafted him for about a mile until I turned off to go my way, now I was starting to blow a bit , my second ride in 4 months, now I gave £185 for this olmo giro last year because I felt nostalgic and it just struck me when I was right behind the dogma the price difference and it just reinforced everything we all know, it’s the rider and not the bike whatever marketing BS the bike industry comes out with!!!!! If my mate who does the Ironman had been on my bike he’d have blown that dogma away!!!!!
Hello, fellow steel Olmo rider! I've got 3, but some moron stole my 1986 Sintex last year.
@@tweed0929 they’re great bike!! I hope the scumbag who nicked your bike fell of and fractured his skull!!! I had a steel fondriest years ago and some bell end stole it☹️ my mate who does iron man got a pinarello Prince and I told him my olmo was actually made with love and care in Italy unlike his plastic Chinese bike 🤣
@@julianmorris9951 yeah, ride quality of Olmo is hard to match. Even my Colnago Super lags behind in ride quality department. I adore its smooth character and it descends like on rails!
Ive seen tons of carbon frame related videos but this one is accurate and a real expert. A good one featuring him here. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Few times, I have visited the CBR with my carbon parts - carbon links, carbon Lefty, Enve wheel. They are the best in the country.
Thanks for a video
Coming from aerospace engineering here. I think I'd hesitate to put aluminum next to carbon due to the potential for galvanic corrosion of the aluminum part. (unless you could absolutely isolate it from moisture). Steel or Titanium would be better.
Why steel? It corrodes more destructively. I love a steel bike, but I pay special attention to the paint jerb
My wonderful 45 year old steel bike will still be on the road and giving its owner (whoever inherits it from me) so much joy long after every CF frame ever made is in a landfill.
The talk about rider compliance was the main reasons i bought the Canyon Aeroad CFR….super stiff fast and with a bit of compliance 👍👍👍 love my bike😊
Den hätte ich gerne.
And a bit of creak too 🤭
@@Numeriwar no “kreack” Here spell u very much🤫
Carbon fibre is an interesting material though I feel its a bit to disposable (unfortunately it does not dispose well). I still ride aluminium rims and bars on both my road and mountain bike. Everyone talks about how magical carbon fibre hoops feel, the set I had felt the same as the aluminium rims that I replaced them with. I suppose I am either too slow or too fast to notice.
*too, not "to disposable. To is a preposition. Too is an adverb. See if you can sneak in an extra o the next time you write something.
I'm old school rim brakes tubular tyres s-works tarmac SL 4 have looked after it still good to day love it great show
I'll keep my 1992 Merlin Titanium engineered and designed by Tom Kellogg, Thank You. Of course, he's promoting carbon bikes, he repairs them for a living. My bike performs like new it is 31 years old. What is the lifespan of a carbon fiber bike frame? As long as you keep up the maintenance, it can last 5-7 years if used frequently. Infrequent use will stretch the lifespan to almost 10 year. Of course, it's good for the industry.
Agree with you! I will keep my custom geometry Merlin Cyrene (engraved filagree) forever and never worry about BB, dropout or frame breakage problems.
Thank you very much for this one. It is a very informative video for those (like me) who work on their own bikes, perform modifications/upgrades, make changes often, buy new stuff,experience accidents and suffer through various fixes here and there on CARBON bike frames. This guy really seems to know what he is talking about and should be a consumer advocate for the bike buying public in an effort to have changes made in our best interest.
Considering the price and ammount of technology in a bike, the customer should absolutely never be a beta tester and bug fixer as you say. There is absolutely no excuse for selling bad products at high prices and high volume.
Very informative, thank you. I'll inspect my bike today.
Really awesome video and a lot of interesting information on carbon frames I wasn’t aware of. My only slight criticism is that guy off camera might not have been nessesary,but if so he could have gotten into the shot. Thanks for a great RUclips channel!
Thank you Jourdain for these video's learned a bunch!
Fantastic - an unusually fine feel for mech system interfaces - much appreciated.
How the expert explain is very good.🎉
You stated the solution on drop outs. Do not bond the aluminum to carbon. Through pin the aluminum one per side with a compression bushing urethane. You have the connection of aluminum placed against wheel held in place with with a bushing against the frame.
long live the bespoke aluminium and steel bike industry.
I had a chrome molly steel 1996 Greg Lemond with Shimano parts. I put a bigger cog set on the rear and an XT MTB rear derailleur for climbing.
I loved riding that bike! Coming down a fast twisting highway from skyline ridge, you could feel the steel flex yet tighten up, the steel flex was like a shock absorber. You had to go fast, 2 lane road, impatient cars so you had to go 35, 40 mph.
There was a comfort, a reliability, a steady frame when things got rough.
I am a bigger rider so frame weight is not number 1 for me. I agree 200 percent with you.
I wonder if the extra cost of space age carbon really is worth it, if you are not racing at a high level.
Great Video. And many Interesting Insider Knowledge. Thank You both.
Eye opening. I use a pair of 2013 48mm clincher carbon wheels with aluminium flanks. Both still running perfectly, maybe someday in the not so far future need replacement for the front wheel due to brake wear on the flanks.
Very cool. I still have my old Trek Elite 9.8 and my US Postal Service Team Edition Trek 5200. :)
I have a nice carbon road bike and a cheaper alloy bike I use in the winter. Honestly, I can’t see me buying another carbon bike. I love it but I’m getting fed up with pampering it. I want something that’s fast and robust and I think I’m going steel for my next bike.
Finally an expert talking about carbon!
You were so interesting and full of knowledge! Thank you, Sir!
I have an '88 Alan Carbonio, a '99 ICE Hammer and a 2011 Neuvation 500. Never had any problems with their carbon frames.
Amazeballzzz story pro!
Bill Mould identified a galvanic corrosion problem with cf wheels that use aluminum nipples. The aluminum nipples “rust”, I.e., gradually turn to aluminum oxide powder when water gets between the nipples and the carbon fiber.
Because of this, I only want wheelsets with brass nipples. Chances are, it's going to be self-configured from scratch.
@@sbccbc7471 - I always build my cf wheels with brass nipples…
For the dropout issue, why not try a shim and washer face type setup that is not bonded but pinched between the dropout.
That would just be more likely to move. The best solution for dropouts on carbon bikes is thru-axles, because they don't rely on tension and friction to prevent movement.
What about the Dura Ace wheels made with aluminum reinforced with carbon fiber? They have a good reputation. How do they compensate for the different thermal coefficients of expansion?
i lived in the US and i bought UK PlanetX Stealth Carbon years ago....i crashed and saw my bike bounced twice ahead of me...only got two dents - handlebar and pedal which i replaced...still using it to this day....its very very stiff and you can feel the ripples on the road...very fast too...feel lucky i have this carbon designed years ago
Interesting to hear that the carbon frame survived. From what I have learn in the last few videos, It's much stronger than I thought. I couldn't even break a fork blade half chopped in the video ruclips.net/video/okRKrTVzDho/видео.html
Calling this evolution is a stretch! Change? For sure. Let's remember Cannondale made a bike under the UCI weight limit with just 3 carbon tube sections bonded into what was essentially an aluminum bike frame. Carbon fork of course but aluminum wheels, Q/R skewers and rim brakes. Since then the industry has f__ked around with carbon rims pinched by brake calipers (as noted here) that worked terribly...so discs were the answer...but didn't play nice with Q/R's so we get thru-axles. And they still have to weigh 6.8 kgs so the only thing truly lighter in the process is the buyer's bank account balance while wheels are harder to remove, brakes harder to service and bike frames are light potato chips...riders eat 'em one after another, making a nice biz for Mr. Carbon Repair.
Amazing talking points on carbon frames; but i don't have to worry about any of that !!
I have a titanium bike !
Я боюсь покупать титановый велосипед потому что он абсолютно не ремонтопригоден.на ебей много поломанных титановых рам.только странно что их покупают за 300 евро
I'd love to hear this man's opinion on Cannondale's Topstone gravel bike. It's kingpin suspension in the seat tube, I believe, solves that lack of compliance he was talking about.
im in the automotive industry and were starting to look at carbon for consumer level vehicles just due to the increase weight from electrification were right now looking at using TPU bushings between metal and carbon surfaces as it allows for seasonal expansion and contraction without putting strain on the carbon
Sounds interesting! Thanks for sharing
I have experience on different steel frames..... and they do feel different. It can be wall thickness of the tubes, angles, builder skills, etc. Carbon just gives even more options which is nice. I have an older mountain bike with aluminum into carbon seat stays and it's been fine. Both are rocky mountain mtb's from 2009. I like the early carbon era since they left the exposed carbon fiber look, still something I like to this day.
As someone who rides solo for fun and fitness, this video made me appreciate my early 1980s Ishiwata steel frame Trek even more. I crashed trying to get back on the pavement from a low shoulder and, on another occasion, got knocked down by a car that made a right turn and almost ran over me and, except for the paint in a few spots, the Trek frameset is still in perfect condition.
my late 1970's Ishiwata trek frameset was excellent..., but was too tight coupled for my riding style
Love the idea of the derailer hanger being used as an aluminum mating surface for the drop out but I have had an SL6 where that hanger broke and destroyed my dropout at the same time.
I am done with carbon. I like my bike pristine with no scratches. Carbon chips and scrapes so easy. I am very happy with my titanium Merlin XLM.
Saw Rob on Francis Cade's channel too. I could listen to him all day.
There was a wise man once said( I think he was an engineer working for TF tuned or some race department? It was nearly 20+yrs ago it was when the first carbon mountain bikes was being massed produced, and he said “light, strong, cheap, pick two”….and I have still lived by that motto today
The TVT frames had Aluminum lugs and carbon tubes. Many of them are still in use today 30+ years old and still fine. I understand the difference in thermal expansion between aluminum and Carbon but modern epoxies can be specified to allow for some movement without cracking. In principle, yes it's shouldn't work but with the right epoxy it's not a problem.
Exactly. Too bad a lot of people will watch this video and assume carbon frames are just a dispensable item. Materials and assembly processes are too wide of a subject. I would advise people to go as they wish as long as the warranty is long enough. If you wanna go carbon, lifetime warranty.
Stockton Rush said the same thing 😂.
Why not use mechanical adhesion (i.e. fins) on aluminum fittings as well as bonding agents in the layups? It would prevent torsion which breaks free the adhesive. Seems thinner fittings would reduce the temperature issues as well. Most problems with BB’s are conditional to shape rather than material. If tolerances were more strick, wear would be greatly reduced and insert sleeves receiving far less load factors.
Not sure I understand his comments about the lower seat stays. The weight on the back wheel is pushing the seat stays forwards into the seat tube, so it will be flexing it in the same direction as your weight on the saddle, which should improve comfort.
I was on the verge of buying a new set of deep section aero wheels for my rim brake bike, and I'm glad I didn't. The thought of damaging the side walls, and probably worse braking than my wheels with an aluminum braking surface. It made more sense to just build a new disc road bike.
HED makes great aluminum wheels with carbon fiber fairings.
I like my Fulcrum Racing Zero 2WF...1490g alloy rim brake wheels...
@@Silidons91 Probably some of the best alu wheels made. Even the racing 3 wheels are good.
@@cccpkingu I was referring to many Aero wheelsets that don't have an aluminum braking surface, which will wear out the Carbon sidewalls of the wheels over time.
I have got two Look, kg191 and 586 team. And I dos not feel any issues about bottom brackets. Even here in Seville where the temp reaches 40..45° in the summer
Very informative. Amazing. Tx 👍
Glad you enjoyed it!
brilliant, that guy knows how to explain things doesn't he, what a dude
Everything he said has made me love my 08 Madone even more! (Except for the disc brake thing)
Thank you for the warning about the dangers of using carbon fabricated frame bikes and carbon fabricated bicycle parts.
It is safe to use the steel and aluminum bicycle frames and parts!
Safety first before the fashions.
Thanks for this video!
Empathy? Can you imagine buying a car and wheels falling off and telling customer, "hey buddy please have empathy for us"?
Incredible video, very interesting. Rob has so much knowledge. Thanks
What a legend. I learned so much!
Glad you enjoyed!
what torque would be recommended on carbon frame and seatpost to get it clamped and dont destroy the carbon? My dealer told me if i hear a noise its too much ... said and done, i heared a little noise ans stoped screwing -> after 2km seat post was going down and i forgot my tool at home -.-
Every frame has to have a specific torque spec for your seatpost clamp, there's no one torque spec for all.
one thing not noted that actualy is the bigest problem with the aluminum and cfrp combination is corrosion, basically cfrp corrodes aluminum when both are in contact. so you either use stainless steel (heavy) or titanium (really expansive) or you need to isolate the cfrp pro the aluminum part with kevlar or glass plies.
This was awesome!! I learned so much!!
Motorsport composites use bonded titanium or steel inserts to alleviate the problems with interface stress.
That's interesting 🤔 I'll have a Google
And they work amazing! Because they use good bonding procedures with bond line thickness controls etc, galvanic isolation for aluminum or compatible metals like titanium, stainless steels etc. When a bit of thought is involved in the design it works as intended! Very well!
That guy is brilliant. I'm supposing that the best frame design would be for the top tube to go directly to the rear dropout to allow more tuning of the seat post.. It would look awful but that's because I love the look of a parallel top tube bike