Simply my 1st choice will always be alloy... then get a 2nd carbon. Planning on buying a newer bike or build one with good components. Alloy frame wins 🎉 where do they get the materials to make carbon frames...i once hit a pot hole and somersaulted on tarmac 2017.... the bike survived and stll strong..its aluminum and with a carbon fork.
My cat broke my previous carbon frame while it was on the trainer. A painting fell of the wall and he launched himself to the rear triangle breaking the chain stay. I fixed it myself with carbon and epoxy and rode the whole summer with it.
Well, as long as you don’t crash it! In MTB applications, have seen a lot of people with broken rims so I think carbon does not go well in MTB world. In road bikes I think it is just fine, have a carbon bike myself.
@@jimsteinway695 Hello Jim. I had a teammate with an old Trek bike and his chain used to rub close to rear derailleur and eventually his frame had a big hole. And in the very rocky terrain, carbon wheelsets seems to get broken very often. I ride in northern Mexico, in the rocky desert area with lots of mountains. If you fall hard in a rocky place, your frame be broken. The frame, however, will last a lot more than a wheelset. I just like to buy a bike and keep it for a long time, but then again it depends a lot where you ride. The carbon fiber is really an amazing material, expensive sure, but amazing.
Ok this was “The best” Q&A. I am an avid rider and still had few questions which was answered here directly and on point. Most important the life span of carbon bicycles. Thank you 🙏
“Repaired over 14k carbon frames”. For me that says it all. I guess carbon is good for the pros since they aren’t paying for it. There’s just too much overthinking in modern cycling. It’s a bike. Keep it simple and ride. To think so many people have a carbon frame, carbon wheels and components, electric shifting integrated suspension hydraulic discs internal cabling and tubeless tires. All on one bike. Weekend warriors can’t repair or maintain all of these necessary tech innovations. Then there’s the cost…….
I love Rob and his insights on carbon. I agree that there’s something pretty amazing about carbon from a performance standpoint of a set goal, but what I inferred from that is it’s less optimal for broader utility. My opinion is that the bike industry is a little over fixated on racing performance and not enough on everyday utility. For the last decade I’ve lived without a car and used my bike as my primary mode of transit. From loading it up with groceries, to riding across the US, I’ve had a steel gravel bike as my go to rig, and I really enjoy the versatility of it. The fact that it’s not performance specific is actually a perk.
As a performance factor, steel os very good. In terms of ride characteristics it rides fastest because it is strong, but also the flexibility in steel is just right to allow for more efficiency and not outright stiffness. It also feels better. If steel could be made aerodynamic I would ride it in the tour de france for that matter; even up a steep mountain it might be better than carbon, aero deosn't matter as much as weight above 7% ish, if it wasn't for a 6.8kg rule (now even some aero bikes are 6.8kg....) There exist sub 6.8kg steel bikes that are not even drillium the slightest bit...
@@joneinarmattiasvisser6113 I wonder if we’re thinking about aerodynamics the wrong way to begin with, and for true optimization we shouldn’t be thinking about shaping the tubes, but adding fairings that help it become more aero. I’m sure the UCI bans it, but maybe it’s time to throw out some of these limitations.
Rob - is talking a lot of sense ( I work in composites and failure analysis of composite structures) For once a good video on composites from bikes Very informative as well
Some interesting points here. One big disadvantage of carbon is the price. I don't race, never have and am too old and creaky to start now. There is absolutely no point in me buying a carbon frame, except maybe a Salsa Cutthroat (that gives you an idea what sort of riding I do) so by buying steel bikes (One has a carbon fork but that just came with the bike) I save myself thousands of pounds on high tech materials that are wasted on me. It's nice to have nice things but you have to be realistic about what it's going to do for you. Great video.
It's a horrible material for a consumer product. Please make a whole feature about the environmental and health impact of carbon production. The glues that are used are amongst the most toxic chemicals men have ever created. We are seeing the start of a cancer epidemic sweeping across China among the workers in the carbon manufacturing industry. That stuff will never be recycled nor decomposed. And all the performance benefits are not too great either. Carbon bikes will be worn after one or two good racing seasons. Talk to every pro. At the end of the season their bikes are worn soft. The simple reason is that the carbon fibers are not bonded under tension. It's basically the glue that makes it stiff. Meanwhile the fastest bike in the world at the moment was made out of aluminum. Alloys are the future.
It's really good & informative to hear an expert's opinion on the pros & cons of carbon frames. He gives you the details about the material instead of the hype & myths that are circulating in the cycling world. Depending on our riding priorities we can now make a more informed decision on which type of frame/bicycle to buy.
Knowledgeable person. I've have two carbon bikes, both had problems. It is important to mention there many versions of carbon they are not all the same composition. One bike I crashed badly and broke the rear stay the other had a crack under the frame where the suspension was mounted. Both were repaired successfully.
MTB rider. 51 years old been enjoying sport for 31 years. First bike was steel GT Karakorum. 2nd bike and many after were Aluminum. Only had 2 carbon frames. One Ive had for 5 years and 1 for 3. Im 200 lbs and consider myself an above average rider. Ive had zero issues. This is after violent wrecks that required ER visits and high speed pedal strikes that cracked Shimano XT crank arms. To be fair both frame are Santa Cruz carbon CC, the higher end of their line.
I hope that chemists will develop relatively cheap carbon nanotubes manufacturing method in the near future. That would be a new era of composites, because CNTs can absorb about ten times more mechanical energy than carbon fiber and such composties will be drastically more durable and impact resistant. Besides that CNTs can stick to each other without epoxy when mixed with some strong acids and probably form monolithic and recyclable material.
I think this Video answers some questions put out there by others regards Robs business etc and your integrity Jourdain,sometimes its best to lay low regroup and came back stronger as you have. RUclips can be bitchy at times and people are often very spiteful behind a keyboard,but well done onwards and upwards.....
The look and time question is all about QC and tolerances. Yes generally the quality is too a higher standard, it's proven time and time again because it's not had to measure a hole or see if a surface is flush. Then there's things like over spray and recalls from poor designs or parts that brake. Usually the big brands suffer from QC issues because they care more about profit than serving their customers.
What a great and informative interview. I couldn't believe it was over when I got to the end, so much to learn and know, I found it very intriguing. Thanks for the great content!
We have been using carbon fibers for ages in fishing (50 years or so) and we are still catching fish with 20 year + old rods. The issue was the quality of the resin, which was getting limp with age. But that's not the case anymore. The strength and the reliability of the carbon rods are astonishingly high !
The 65 ton refers to the carbon configuration that a bike is made and not the bike frame's strength. 65 Toray can withstand 65 tons per square inch and from a specific angle only. Bikes can withstand far, far, but far less weight.
Rob's statements on carbon frames I'm afraid have a lot of holes. So, lets debunk the debunkers. McLaren didn't 'discover' the fatigue of carbon components. It's always been the case, and they know this over years of testing carbon components' legality in terms of deflection. The confusion comes because carbon as a fiber is not susceptible to fatigue on it's own, but it will never be used without a matrix(resin). Resins will crack and delaminate over time, and experience fatigue, causing fibers to separate. Also, your carbon frame is susceptible to UV damage. If made from certain resins, and not coated appropriately. Finally, acetone(the thing you use to take nail polish off) can damage carbon frames along with various other chemicals, paint stripper etc.
Your assessment is the one that contains a lot of holes. Let’s debunk your uninformed comments. Epoxy will not degrade to the point of affecting the composite in the human lifetime if it is not stressed past it’s designed parameters. Many resins are now UV resistant, however if they are not a clear coat or other paint finish is applied therefore this is quite an irrelevant issue.
As much as Rob's opinion on this is valid, it's really subjective too. Perhaps if you'd taken the frames and subjected them to a series of fatigue cycles, mechanical test loading with calibrated weights and then used microscope examination to see the extent of carbon fiber delamination and cracking it would have given greater insight into potential shortcomings in the manufacturing process. Simply pointing out the differences between the two frame types and then speculating why one frame is different to the other isn't ideal. I accept that expense frames will be designed using FEA software to determine carbon wall thickness based on loading however a reduced cross-section will reduce the autoclave processing time and therefore increase throughput. So you can make a lot more expensive frames quicker than the thinker ones ..... handy that. I don't agree with the assessment around the forks either. Stiff does always equal strength. Stiff can equal increased strength but also it can mean it's very brittle. Not great on your forks when it is likely they impact things like curbs edges. In my opinion you need some flex in your forks to stop them from snapping on you. All in all this was good exercise but it let itself down by not having a more scientific approach to the carbon frames' mechanical properties rather than a subjective compare and contrast.
A guy I ride with bought a carbon frame. We ride daily, his carbon frame was done in 4 years, where as I was still riding my 1971 Peugeot. After 52 years of daily riding I retired my Peugeot and purchased a Ti bike.
@@smoothy8464 many top end steel and aluminium racing frames have weight limits, a top end aluminium frame would be finished after a single season of competition due to fatigue.If used all year round it is not unknown for a high end steel frame to fail ( generally bb/chainstay junction) after three years due to corrosion.
Every material in biking has its run. It's time to move on from carbon as the do everything material for bikes. It is very difficult to obtain very close tolerances in large scale with carbon, which is why I believe the industry is having such a tough time now with quality assurance even at the highest end. BB holes are almost never properly round and within tolerance. Carbon also dries out over time, becomes brittle and fails without warning compared to metals, As bikes become faster and more complex, mfrs will continue to be dragged down the quality and safety rabbit hole if they don't wake up. 3D printed, thermoplastic hybrid steel carbon composite is where the industry should be headed. There are many other materials and composites hidden behind the closed doors at huge corps that would rather wait for a guaranteed defense contract rather than releasing and let the material compete with other companies materials for applications and supremacy in the open market. Ask yoursey, do you really think that at this point in big corporate RnD, that quirky carbon fiber is really the best we can do? I have a carbon bike that I love for cross country. But, if I had the skills to ride in like a Red Bull rampage type event, I highly doubt I would choose carbon for my frame.
Longevity, quality and robustness. Gotta be a Colnago C40, survived pro racing, Paris ROubaix, and the 30 years since and almost all still going strong...
I'm not a pro. Sure. But i weigh almost as much as 2 of them. I might decide to go down a curb or 2 n think it worked well last time. 💥 there goes the frame.
I don't trust the manufacturers. A lot of hand labor goes in to making a carbon frame with the layup and each person doing it has a different way of doing it. So if that one person has a bad day at work that day what's to say the process was followed. I've followed hundreds of videos showing all the problems with carbon bikes and for what they cost I won't take that chance with my money. I did buy a Colnago M10 once, that frame was $4500 US and it only lasted 8 years before the chainstay joint broke. A carbon repair shop told me they did not want to repair it because it was a joint and where it was located by the bottom bracket. I also had a Cannondale Scalpel which used carbon in the chainstays. That one shreaded in just two years but the frame did get warrantied. I've had carbon seatposts just snap in half. I've also had some other small carbon light weight parts break. Nope! Not spending my money on it anymore.
Giant replaced my frame when a crack formed in the seat cluster. This new frame also has a life warranty. You should have bought Giant instead of Colnago.
@@seanparker7415 You are 100% right. Those Italians don't back their shit up. A good friend of mine had 2 of the same model Pinarello's that broke in the same spot on the seat tube down at the BB and they didn't warranty those bikes either. I stay clear of all that Italian junk now.
My M10s is still going strong, well the chap in the video did have to rebuild the toptube 9 years ago that I shattered when I hit road furniture at over 40mph. I still use the lightweight carbon handlebars that were fitted to it at the time , my alloy “Thompson” seatpost didn’t fair so well.
So the biggest thing about time and look did not get mentioned. If you buy a frame from them every point of contact is spotless. You don't gef ghat from big brands and it is why I wouod only buy a carbon frame from those two brands.
He talks a lot but doesn't say that much regarding to who makes good carbon frames and who doesn't. I find the statement go to the big brands for a good frame quite hilarious to be honest.
Interesting, I don't buy his analysis on uv and heat. I live is a desert where there is a lot of weekend warriors riding MTBs. There is a lot of trash cans full of damaged carbon frames. For the money steel is the way to go. Also the weight advantage you get with carbon is negated by diet.
Carbon can last a really long time actually! As an example I've had carbon cross country ski poles last 25 ish years (I don't remember how old they actually are, older than me). So yes, carbon does last. Now this is not a bike of course, and there isn't any safety factor to considder with carbon poles, but like, I have crashed with these poles, put pressure in wrong directions, amd they are still good and it's *old* technology (!). I guess with bikes that they can last, especially cross, gravel and xc mountain bikes because they are built for impact. So they should last if cared for!
Should I buy Chinese frame? If it was 2000s I would skeptical as F. But 2024? Go ahead. Carbon tech is standardize everywhere. There almost no secret in carbon chemical formula. All Carbon frame made in China/Taiwan. If they know, they know.
Seems like a straight-shooter with no axe to grind or brand to shill for. What he probably can't quantify is the QC of various carbon bike makers. Nobody's perfect, but what happens to the not-so-great ones? HIs comments on frames getting "whippy" after serious use is interesting - they used to say the same thing about steel though it's properties are/were thought to be timeless as well. Just bought a carbon bicycle (my first) a few weeks ago, so I hope he's right about 'em!!!
I own a 2021 Vitus Zenium CR for which I paid a little over $2k. I low sided on that bike. I was shocked when the only damage to the bike was a scraped handlebar and a twisted shifter/brake lever. I didn’t fare as well as I had some bad road rash but the bike is solid.
Time and Look do make very solid frames in my experience. Also i’ve ridden two carbon frames which were the same design but one was monocoque and the other was not. Completely different animal
Does anyone know how deep the Mariana Trench is? I'm guessing but I think its roughly the same as the distance between here and Plymouth or about 60 Burj Kalifas.
Jazz legend Miles Davis was once asked if electric instruments were ruining music. He replied, "No, bad music is what is ruining music." You can say more or less the same thing about carbon frames. By the way, at this point, I'm really happy with my two Chinese frames (ICAN and Yoeleo). I had an issue with the seatpost on my Yoeleo R12 and they replaced it for me. Since then, perfect. The ICAN has been totally trouble-free. Neither one is in the super light category, the Yoeleo with Ultegra is about 8 kg. Regarding Kevlar, an important thing I learned from my other sport is it has excellent vibration dampening properties. There are industrial carbon weaves that include Kevlar fibers in with the carbon. I predict we will see more of it.
We don't want him to sued by them...just make conscious decision to buy alloy or carbon... I will buy both but will use more of the alloy than carbon. Buy 2nd carbon 😂
Think I have too much of power , this is the 3rd frame that have a crack at the same exact location . Every 3 to 5 months I keep changing bearings . I going alloy frame on the my warranty claim.
I'm a materials engineer so get all of this, but what frustrates me is since piling on the weight after forced time off the bike it's almost impossible to find expensive aero frames that are engineered for heavier riders. Some don't even quite a weight limit.
Great info on carbon frames. Rob I think is at the top of the game when it comes to carbon repair. Ps if he's looking for a new home for the Bianchi I'll take it off his hands...
Didn't mention the biggest flaw with carbon frames which is the bb shell. There is no standard yet and most have a bb shell glued in which seem to have issues quite alot.
Thank you Jourdain for bringing on a man who thoroughly knows the limits, and maximums of the carbon world as it pertains to the civilian use. I have always been led to believe that a break, tear or split in the carbon layup , is irreparable damage and cant be repaired because the break in the directional fiber, is a breakup on the entire strength as a whole ? Delamination, i understand a little better. But what do i know ! Thanks for a great interview:)
I've rode a 1,000 gram carbon frame from 5 years ago and a 1,000 gram frame ( new ) even I can tell the new frames are stiffer and handles better especially the front end at high speeds. He's correct!
Not really :). Maybe for that particular model you rode but it depends on the geometry, seat stays, the size of the headtube and the bottom bracket. I do not know which brand you rode but I can tell you for Giant bikes. Older 2012-2017 are stiffer, heavier but stiffer. Giant says that the added flex is for absorbing road vibrations. At the end of the day, we are all different and until you won't rode the bike, you really won't know. For me (204lb), I will take my 6 gen TCR if I am racing an hour or two. Anything longer, I prefer my gen 9 with non integrated seatpost. Newer bikes are faster because you can stay longer on them and push harder for longer while the older bikes are like Mitsubishi Evos. Uncomfortable in long rides but the best for short rides.
this is the con of a lifetime warranty: It's not your lifetime, it's the lifetime of the frame/design (how can they replace a frame if they no longer make that frame) they have a new design every year... last years model...is essentially dead. so to answer your question; a brand that's lying to you.
I value Rob’s opinion on carbon. Very informative, not opinionated. Easy to listen to and understand. Thanks for having him on.
Rob's a genuine guy not selling out to brands.
No problem!
Simply my 1st choice will always be alloy... then get a 2nd carbon. Planning on buying a newer bike or build one with good components. Alloy frame wins 🎉 where do they get the materials to make carbon frames...i once hit a pot hole and somersaulted on tarmac 2017.... the bike survived and stll strong..its aluminum and with a carbon fork.
Very good info❤ And 90+ percent of all of the worlds riders would be well off with metal frames😊
My cat broke my previous carbon frame while it was on the trainer. A painting fell of the wall and he launched himself to the rear triangle breaking the chain stay. I fixed it myself with carbon and epoxy and rode the whole summer with it.
🤣
No I can't feel any difference.@@pierrex3226
He looks like Lee majors in his younger days
Weight is not that important for most riders.
Glad to hear my low wattage output is working for me to make my carbon bikes last a long time.
😂 same here!
hahaha me too
Well, as long as you don’t crash it!
In MTB applications, have seen a lot of people with broken rims so I think carbon does not go well in MTB world. In road bikes I think it is just fine, have a carbon bike myself.
@@rogermty1971I haven’t had any problems with mtb carbon. It’s the guys who think carbon gives them license to jump off mountains
@@jimsteinway695 Hello Jim. I had a teammate with an old Trek bike and his chain used to rub close to rear derailleur and eventually his frame had a big hole. And in the very rocky terrain, carbon wheelsets seems to get broken very often. I ride in northern Mexico, in the rocky desert area with lots of mountains. If you fall hard in a rocky place, your frame be broken. The frame, however, will last a lot more than a wheelset. I just like to buy a bike and keep it for a long time, but then again it depends a lot where you ride. The carbon fiber is really an amazing material, expensive sure, but amazing.
Ok this was “The best” Q&A. I am an avid rider and still had few questions which was answered here directly and on point. Most important the life span of carbon bicycles. Thank you 🙏
Glad you enjoyed it!
“Repaired over 14k carbon frames”. For me that says it all. I guess carbon is good for the pros since they aren’t paying for it.
There’s just too much overthinking in modern cycling. It’s a bike. Keep it simple and ride.
To think so many people have a carbon frame, carbon wheels and components, electric shifting integrated suspension hydraulic discs internal cabling and tubeless tires. All on one bike. Weekend warriors can’t repair or maintain all of these necessary tech innovations. Then there’s the cost…….
And if gets broken they get a replacement at no fee... so they can be rough riding.... not for everyone
I love Rob and his insights on carbon. I agree that there’s something pretty amazing about carbon from a performance standpoint of a set goal, but what I inferred from that is it’s less optimal for broader utility.
My opinion is that the bike industry is a little over fixated on racing performance and not enough on everyday utility.
For the last decade I’ve lived without a car and used my bike as my primary mode of transit. From loading it up with groceries, to riding across the US, I’ve had a steel gravel bike as my go to rig, and I really enjoy the versatility of it. The fact that it’s not performance specific is actually a perk.
As a performance factor, steel os very good. In terms of ride characteristics it rides fastest because it is strong, but also the flexibility in steel is just right to allow for more efficiency and not outright stiffness. It also feels better.
If steel could be made aerodynamic I would ride it in the tour de france for that matter; even up a steep mountain it might be better than carbon, aero deosn't matter as much as weight above 7% ish, if it wasn't for a 6.8kg rule (now even some aero bikes are 6.8kg....)
There exist sub 6.8kg steel bikes that are not even drillium the slightest bit...
@@joneinarmattiasvisser6113 I wonder if we’re thinking about aerodynamics the wrong way to begin with, and for true optimization we shouldn’t be thinking about shaping the tubes, but adding fairings that help it become more aero. I’m sure the UCI bans it, but maybe it’s time to throw out some of these limitations.
@@MrQuestful maybe you are totally right, who knows
Rob - is talking a lot of sense ( I work in composites and failure analysis of composite structures) For once a good video on composites from bikes Very informative as well
Some interesting points here. One big disadvantage of carbon is the price. I don't race, never have and am too old and creaky to start now. There is absolutely no point in me buying a carbon frame, except maybe a Salsa Cutthroat (that gives you an idea what sort of riding I do) so by buying steel bikes (One has a carbon fork but that just came with the bike) I save myself thousands of pounds on high tech materials that are wasted on me. It's nice to have nice things but you have to be realistic about what it's going to do for you. Great video.
Right and the reason behind the high price tag for carbon is due to the tedious and time consuming process to make it
Much better than 'other' YTers that bang on about the benefits of the same brands and dissing other brands. Love it.
It's a horrible material for a consumer product. Please make a whole feature about the environmental and health impact of carbon production. The glues that are used are amongst the most toxic chemicals men have ever created. We are seeing the start of a cancer epidemic sweeping across China among the workers in the carbon manufacturing industry. That stuff will never be recycled nor decomposed. And all the performance benefits are not too great either. Carbon bikes will be worn after one or two good racing seasons. Talk to every pro. At the end of the season their bikes are worn soft. The simple reason is that the carbon fibers are not bonded under tension. It's basically the glue that makes it stiff. Meanwhile the fastest bike in the world at the moment was made out of aluminum. Alloys are the future.
Spoken like a true uninformed Luddite 😂
It's really good & informative to hear an expert's opinion on the pros & cons of carbon frames. He gives you the details about the material instead of the hype & myths that are circulating in the cycling world. Depending on our riding priorities we can now make a more informed decision on which type of frame/bicycle to buy.
What kind of heat matters? In a garage or shed in summer? Auto exhaust? What level and duration of heat?
Knowledgeable person. I've have two carbon bikes, both had problems. It is important to mention there many versions of carbon they are not all the same composition. One bike I crashed badly and broke the rear stay the other had a crack under the frame where the suspension was mounted. Both were repaired successfully.
Glad they got repaired 👍🏽
MTB rider. 51 years old been enjoying sport for 31 years. First bike was steel GT Karakorum. 2nd bike and many after were Aluminum. Only had 2 carbon frames. One Ive had for 5 years and 1 for 3. Im 200 lbs and consider myself an above average rider. Ive had zero issues. This is after violent wrecks that required ER visits and high speed pedal strikes that cracked Shimano XT crank arms. To be fair both frame are Santa Cruz carbon CC, the higher end of their line.
😱 TITAN SUBMERSIBLE DID A GREAT👌🏼 PRACTICAL DEMONSTRATION ON THE LIFESPAN OF CARBON FIBER, 💯%
LESSON WELL LEARNT 👍🏼
I use that analogy as sarcasm for most friends that spend over 6k on carbon, I do not trust carbon at all!!
@@Bravonewyork YOU SHALL LIVE A LONG LIFE🤪🖕, My Wise Friend😏👍, & have great stories about why" Sam's 😇☠ dead, & Frank's in wheel chair ♿😫💦
I hear it makes for great submarines
Love Rob’s passion for carbon and repairs.
He’s spot on with fixing things to avoid waste.
I hope that chemists will develop relatively cheap carbon nanotubes manufacturing method in the near future. That would be a new era of composites, because CNTs can absorb about ten times more mechanical energy than carbon fiber and such composties will be drastically more durable and impact resistant. Besides that CNTs can stick to each other without epoxy when mixed with some strong acids and probably form monolithic and recyclable material.
I think this Video answers some questions put out there by others regards Robs business etc and your integrity Jourdain,sometimes its best to lay low regroup and came back stronger as you have. RUclips can be bitchy at times and people are often very spiteful behind a keyboard,but well done onwards and upwards.....
The look and time question is all about QC and tolerances. Yes generally the quality is too a higher standard, it's proven time and time again because it's not had to measure a hole or see if a surface is flush. Then there's things like over spray and recalls from poor designs or parts that brake. Usually the big brands suffer from QC issues because they care more about profit than serving their customers.
Especially with the 2022 Giant Defy SL 0 . Bottom bracket ovality issues .
What a great and informative interview. I couldn't believe it was over when I got to the end, so much to learn and know, I found it very intriguing. Thanks for the great content!
Glad you enjoyed it!
We have been using carbon fibers for ages in fishing (50 years or so) and we are still catching fish with 20 year + old rods. The issue was the quality of the resin, which was getting limp with age. But that's not the case anymore. The strength and the reliability of the carbon rods are astonishingly high !
22:30 dammit, I was about to buy a F1 car just for that purpose
carbon? you mean those bikes that will ALWAYS go to the landfill
The 65 ton refers to the carbon configuration that a bike is made and not the bike frame's strength. 65 Toray can withstand 65 tons per square inch and from a specific angle only. Bikes can withstand far, far, but far less weight.
Rob's statements on carbon frames I'm afraid have a lot of holes.
So, lets debunk the debunkers.
McLaren didn't 'discover' the fatigue of carbon components.
It's always been the case, and they know this over years of testing carbon components' legality in terms of deflection.
The confusion comes because carbon as a fiber is not susceptible to fatigue on it's own, but it will never be used without a matrix(resin).
Resins will crack and delaminate over time, and experience fatigue, causing fibers to separate.
Also, your carbon frame is susceptible to UV damage. If made from certain resins, and not coated appropriately.
Finally, acetone(the thing you use to take nail polish off) can damage carbon frames along with various other chemicals, paint stripper etc.
So, if you buy an uncoated frame, or one that is made from 'certain resins' and clean it with acetone you may damage it. Got it.
Your assessment is the one that contains a lot of holes. Let’s debunk your uninformed comments. Epoxy will not degrade to the point of affecting the composite in the human lifetime if it is not stressed past it’s designed parameters.
Many resins are now UV resistant, however if they are not a clear coat or other paint finish is applied therefore this is quite an irrelevant issue.
@@ThePaulKatI think you've just agreed with the comments but explained them again 😂
@aaadam999 Put simply a well engineered and constructed carbon frame will last a lifetime.
Ok ..What about MTB bicycles which does 7 to 10 foot drops how long those frames will last how much I need to be worry
always fun to hear someone talk about something when they're an expert on it.
Great to know that barring any traumatic mishaps your beloved carbon frame will last a lifetime.
Very informative video Jourdain , thanks.
👍🏽
What a great video first off thanks Jourdain for organizing this with Rob is a true carbon specialist no BS straight to the point .
Glad you enjoyed
Awesome INSIGHT! 😎💯👍 Awesome content! 💯
As much as Rob's opinion on this is valid, it's really subjective too. Perhaps if you'd taken the frames and subjected them to a series of fatigue cycles, mechanical test loading with calibrated weights and then used microscope examination to see the extent of carbon fiber delamination and cracking it would have given greater insight into potential shortcomings in the manufacturing process. Simply pointing out the differences between the two frame types and then speculating why one frame is different to the other isn't ideal. I accept that expense frames will be designed using FEA software to determine carbon wall thickness based on loading however a reduced cross-section will reduce the autoclave processing time and therefore increase throughput. So you can make a lot more expensive frames quicker than the thinker ones ..... handy that. I don't agree with the assessment around the forks either. Stiff does always equal strength. Stiff can equal increased strength but also it can mean it's very brittle. Not great on your forks when it is likely they impact things like curbs edges. In my opinion you need some flex in your forks to stop them from snapping on you. All in all this was good exercise but it let itself down by not having a more scientific approach to the carbon frames' mechanical properties rather than a subjective compare and contrast.
A guy I ride with bought a carbon frame. We ride daily, his carbon frame was done in 4 years, where as I was still riding my 1971 Peugeot. After 52 years of daily riding I retired my Peugeot and purchased a Ti bike.
I agree. Al, Ti and chromoly bike mfrs have no need to put a rider weight limit on them. That should tell you all you need to know about durability.
Carbon fiber are cured by epoxy. Carbon fiber may be strong but not the epoxy.
@@ゆっくり鑑賞アカウントis that why it’s used in the construction of super yacht hulls and aeroplane wings?
@@smoothy8464 many top end steel and aluminium racing frames have weight limits, a top end aluminium frame would be finished after a single season of competition due to fatigue.If used all year round it is not unknown for a high end steel frame to fail ( generally bb/chainstay junction) after three years due to corrosion.
That guy should have bought a better carbon bike and it would have lasted him a lifetime lol.
Every material in biking has its run. It's time to move on from carbon as the do everything material for bikes. It is very difficult to obtain very close tolerances in large scale with carbon, which is why I believe the industry is having such a tough time now with quality assurance even at the highest end. BB holes are almost never properly round and within tolerance. Carbon also dries out over time, becomes brittle and fails without warning compared to metals, As bikes become faster and more complex, mfrs will continue to be dragged down the quality and safety rabbit hole if they don't wake up. 3D printed, thermoplastic hybrid steel carbon composite is where the industry should be headed. There are many other materials and composites hidden behind the closed doors at huge corps that would rather wait for a guaranteed defense contract rather than releasing and let the material compete with other companies materials for applications and supremacy in the open market. Ask yoursey, do you really think that at this point in big corporate RnD, that quirky carbon fiber is really the best we can do? I have a carbon bike that I love for cross country. But, if I had the skills to ride in like a Red Bull rampage type event, I highly doubt I would choose carbon for my frame.
Can you ask him next time what would happen if e.g. someone with a weight of 150kg is riding a carbon bike that is lablled to max weight of 110kg?
Longevity, quality and robustness. Gotta be a Colnago C40, survived pro racing, Paris ROubaix, and the 30 years since and almost all still going strong...
Amazng!
Yes indeed! Still have mine, a sublime ride
I'm not a pro. Sure. But i weigh almost as much as 2 of them. I might decide to go down a curb or 2 n think it worked well last time. 💥 there goes the frame.
I'd love to know the amount of frame replacements the top DH teams go though and what did them in.
I don't trust the manufacturers. A lot of hand labor goes in to making a carbon frame with the layup and each person doing it has a different way of doing it. So if that one person has a bad day at work that day what's to say the process was followed. I've followed hundreds of videos showing all the problems with carbon bikes and for what they cost I won't take that chance with my money. I did buy a Colnago M10 once, that frame was $4500 US and it only lasted 8 years before the chainstay joint broke. A carbon repair shop told me they did not want to repair it because it was a joint and where it was located by the bottom bracket. I also had a Cannondale Scalpel which used carbon in the chainstays. That one shreaded in just two years but the frame did get warrantied. I've had carbon seatposts just snap in half. I've also had some other small carbon light weight parts break. Nope! Not spending my money on it anymore.
Giant replaced my frame when a crack formed in the seat cluster. This new frame also has a life warranty.
You should have bought Giant instead of Colnago.
@@seanparker7415 You are 100% right. Those Italians don't back their shit up. A good friend of mine had 2 of the same model Pinarello's that broke in the same spot on the seat tube down at the BB and they didn't warranty those bikes either. I stay clear of all that Italian junk now.
My M10s is still going strong, well the chap in the video did have to rebuild the toptube 9 years ago that I shattered when I hit road furniture at over 40mph. I still use the lightweight carbon handlebars that were fitted to it at the time , my alloy “Thompson” seatpost didn’t fair so well.
Welcome back!
I learned a lot from this.
So the biggest thing about time and look did not get mentioned. If you buy a frame from them every point of contact is spotless. You don't gef ghat from big brands and it is why I wouod only buy a carbon frame from those two brands.
He talks a lot but doesn't say that much regarding to who makes good carbon frames and who doesn't. I find the statement go to the big brands for a good frame quite hilarious to be honest.
Specialized tarmac has gone down in quality according to durianrider.
Lol you watch that garbage?
Interesting, I don't buy his analysis on uv and heat. I live is a desert where there is a lot of weekend warriors riding MTBs. There is a lot of trash cans full of damaged carbon frames. For the money steel is the way to go. Also the weight advantage you get with carbon is negated by diet.
😂😂😂
What are his thoughts on the unique looking Sirrus X 5.0/6.0 frame design?
He was careful not to debase other bicycle frame manufacturers but I feel that it was a let down for the viewers 😞
Carbon can last a really long time actually!
As an example I've had carbon cross country ski poles last 25 ish years (I don't remember how old they actually are, older than me). So yes, carbon does last.
Now this is not a bike of course, and there isn't any safety factor to considder with carbon poles, but like, I have crashed with these poles, put pressure in wrong directions, amd they are still good and it's *old* technology (!).
I guess with bikes that they can last, especially cross, gravel and xc mountain bikes because they are built for impact. So they should last if cared for!
Ha ha you must be very gentle with your ski poles and not really race in mass starts or sprints.
Welcome back, we missed you!
You're the best!
Epoxies are always curing, so yes carbon frames' lifespan is finite.
Thank you both saving the planet though repair awesome
the last one. thank you for the answer. again a very good video
Plenty of common sense, great interview
Should I buy Chinese frame? If it was 2000s I would skeptical as F. But 2024? Go ahead. Carbon tech is standardize everywhere. There almost no secret in carbon chemical formula. All Carbon frame made in China/Taiwan. If they know, they know.
There are carbon fibre recyclers now out there
good tips " ;
maybee a follow up video about the latest tech on carbon ...like the UD ...1000 or 1500 UD ....strenght ..would be nice.👋👍👨🔧🧰✌️
Seems like a straight-shooter with no axe to grind or brand to shill for. What he probably can't quantify is the QC of various carbon bike makers. Nobody's perfect, but what happens to the not-so-great ones? HIs comments on frames getting "whippy" after serious use is interesting - they used to say the same thing about steel though it's properties are/were thought to be timeless as well. Just bought a carbon bicycle (my first) a few weeks ago, so I hope he's right about 'em!!!
My 13 year old Specialized Roubaix and 13 year old Scott R1 are in perfect condition having gone through a dozen Continental GPs
I own a 2021 Vitus Zenium CR for which I paid a little over $2k. I low sided on that bike. I was shocked when the only damage to the bike was a scraped handlebar and a twisted shifter/brake lever. I didn’t fare as well as I had some bad road rash but the bike is solid.
Time and Look do make very solid frames in my experience. Also i’ve ridden two carbon frames which were the same design but one was monocoque and the other was not. Completely different animal
Does anyone know how deep the Mariana Trench is? I'm guessing but I think its roughly the same as the distance between here and Plymouth or about 60 Burj Kalifas.
Jazz legend Miles Davis was once asked if electric instruments were ruining music. He replied, "No, bad music is what is ruining music." You can say more or less the same thing about carbon frames. By the way, at this point, I'm really happy with my two Chinese frames (ICAN and Yoeleo). I had an issue with the seatpost on my Yoeleo R12 and they replaced it for me. Since then, perfect. The ICAN has been totally trouble-free. Neither one is in the super light category, the Yoeleo with Ultegra is about 8 kg.
Regarding Kevlar, an important thing I learned from my other sport is it has excellent vibration dampening properties. There are industrial carbon weaves that include Kevlar fibers in with the carbon. I predict we will see more of it.
If you only hear the audio, it sounds like you are being lectured about carbon fiber bikes from Donald Trump 😂😂😂
He will not mention specific brands, annoying.
We don't want him to sued by them...just make conscious decision to buy alloy or carbon... I will buy both but will use more of the alloy than carbon. Buy 2nd carbon 😂
Think I have too much of power , this is the 3rd frame that have a crack at the same exact location . Every 3 to 5 months I keep changing bearings . I going alloy frame on the my warranty claim.
I'm a materials engineer so get all of this, but what frustrates me is since piling on the weight after forced time off the bike it's almost impossible to find expensive aero frames that are engineered for heavier riders. Some don't even quite a weight limit.
Will DOT5 brake fluid compromise carbon rims where the brake fluid ran down the spokes and through the drilled carbon spoke holes in the rim?
Great info on carbon frames. Rob I think is at the top of the game when it comes to carbon repair. Ps if he's looking for a new home for the Bianchi I'll take it off his hands...
Didn't mention the biggest flaw with carbon frames which is the bb shell. There is no standard yet and most have a bb shell glued in which seem to have issues quite alot.
So does he recommend against Colnago C version style of making carbon frames? And brands like Sarto that make custom carbon frames?
The last answer schould make us think whether carbon bikes really are something that should be produced en masse.
Great video, good questions, and Rob of Carbon Bike Repair always sounds so knowledgeable and open!
Carbon is thoroughly unsuited to longevinous thin-walled jointed-tube structures.
Bloody wonderful !
Especially this part about not to waste and throw those bikes away
Thanks for the video! Seemed like a lot of editing went in to it, but appreciate the clarity!
As you would do a pet, be careful of leaving your carbon bike in a car on a hot day.
I don't see any info about this carbon expert, the name of his company, etc.
Here is his website - carbonbikerepair.co.uk/
Love this guys attitude! Even showing some love to no-name Chinese frames!
TBH i doubt any chinese brand have tested a frame above 56 in size.
Awesome info.
Excellent questions. Candid responses. Many thanks.
Well i have really low watt and struggle to keep up with the peleton😂
Thank you Jourdain for bringing on a man who thoroughly knows the limits, and maximums of the carbon world as it pertains to the civilian use. I have always been led to believe that a break, tear or split in the carbon layup , is irreparable damage and cant be repaired because the break in the directional fiber, is a breakup on the entire strength as a whole ? Delamination, i understand a little better. But what do i know ! Thanks for a great interview:)
My pleasure! Glad you got some useful info!
If you're smart and resourceful you can re use carbon on some ways.
amazing video! super interesting! thank you!
Excellent information, thanks for producing this video well done!
Glad it was helpful!
I've rode a 1,000 gram carbon frame from 5 years ago and a 1,000 gram frame ( new ) even I can tell the new frames are stiffer and handles better especially the front end at high speeds. He's correct!
Not really :). Maybe for that particular model you rode but it depends on the geometry, seat stays, the size of the headtube and the bottom bracket. I do not know which brand you rode but I can tell you for Giant bikes. Older 2012-2017 are stiffer, heavier but stiffer. Giant says that the added flex is for absorbing road vibrations. At the end of the day, we are all different and until you won't rode the bike, you really won't know. For me (204lb), I will take my 6 gen TCR if I am racing an hour or two. Anything longer, I prefer my gen 9 with non integrated seatpost. Newer bikes are faster because you can stay longer on them and push harder for longer while the older bikes are like Mitsubishi Evos. Uncomfortable in long rides but the best for short rides.
By far, the best interview to date ! Super clear and transparent! Thank you
Glad you enjoyed it!
"The truth" using the big words.
85 - 95KG is a heavy rider?!?!
I literally learned nothing
This is a great video! Thanks
What year is your sub?
Which brand gives lifetime warranty?
this is the con of a lifetime warranty:
It's not your lifetime, it's the lifetime of the frame/design (how can they replace a frame if they no longer make that frame)
they have a new design every year... last years model...is essentially dead.
so to answer your question; a brand that's lying to you.
nice rolex there
Good video👍🏼