The Cluster Argument: Responding to Cessationism
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- In this episode of The Remnant Radio, we respond to Tom Pennington pastor of Countryside Bible Church, as he uses the Cluster argument to explain the cessation of spiritual gifts. Tom Pennington asserts that there are distinct periods in biblical history marked by a concentration of miracles, coinciding with significant stages in God's redemptive plan.
Cessationists claim that there are only three key periods of concentrated miracles in the Bible: the Moses and Joshua era, characterized by miracles during the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan; the Elijah and Elisha era, featuring supernatural acts confirming prophetic ministries in a spiritually declining Israel; and the Jesus and Apostles era, marked by miracles establishing the Christian church and confirming the authority of Jesus and the apostles as messengers of the New Covenant. Cessationists argue that during these periods, unique displays of divine power occurred, and therefore, miraculous gifts gradually diminished or ceased afterward. But is this argument rooted in biblical evidence, or is it a theological assertion imposed upon the text?
We contend that this argument is profoundly unbiblical and can be easily disproven with minimal effort. To start, Jeremiah 32:20-21 unequivocally states that God has performed signs and wonders from the time of Moses to the present day:
“You performed signs and wonders in Egypt and have continued them to this day, in Israel and among all mankind, and have gained the renown that is still yours. 21 You brought your people Israel out of Egypt with signs and wonders, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with great terror.”
Additionally, the New Testament provides explicit time frames for when the gifts will cease, such as Acts 2, which mentions "in the last days," referring to the eschatological period leading up to the "day of the Lord" that we currently live in. Or consider 1 Corinthians 1:7, which explicitly states that the church in Corinth would abound in every gift until Christ appears. Moreover, 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 tells us that the gifts will cease when Christ returns. The Cluster argument stands as one of the weakest arguments in the cessationist arsenal, and in this episode of The Remnant Radio, we address it head-on.
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All this argument about periods where God isn't doing miracles proves, is that He is sovereign it doesn't prove that they completely ceased.
@@SeerSeekingTruthcan you name one person who meets the biblical qualifications of a prophet today.
@@SeerSeekingTruth _" They will simply be accurately interpreting the scriptures teaching truth and calling for people to repent. They will also exhort the churches and the false prophets in their errors which are many."_
You're describing preachers. Which actually is another way to define the term prophet. But I could point to several men off-hand who already fit this description and fulfill their God given role faithfully.
Specifically, I was asking about individuals who are able to give fresh revelation, foretell the future etc. That's what the people in this video mean by the gift of prophecy when they are talking about it.
I know bc I used to attend the same churches they go to. They would have "prophets" come in as guest speakers. They brought in all sorts of false teaching and deception.
@@SeerSeekingTruth no preacher is faithfully teaching the word of God?
Seriously?
@@SeerSeekingTruth no ma'am. You need to qualify your statement first before I write down any names of godly men just for you to tear down.
You said, *"No preachers are not teaching truth at all, not one"*
Is your position that there are no preachers "not one" faithfully teaching the word of God?
@@SeerSeekingTruth You confused categories of the gift of prophecy between one who foretells and one who forth-tells, and in the process made a very odd statement.
So it's not a matter of fear or lack of confidence in the men that I would list being faithful to proclaim the full council of God.
Rather it's your already stated position that there is "not one" person doing this that gives me pause. Because, if that is your position, there is no name I could give that you would concede is someone being faithful to preach the word of God.
It's also a matter of prudence, because you are clearly a false teacher promoting the heresy of Arianism on your channel. So you not being a Christian means you lack the discernment necessary to evaluate these matters to begin with.
Brothers, I have have a unique question.
I newly moved to Calgary in Alberta, Canada, and I’m looking for a church which hasn’t been easy because I’m looking for a balanced theology of fidelity with the scriptures and a continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In order words, I’m looking to avoid the extremes, and these conversations have stirred in me again a desire not to settle for the hyper charismatic or the hyper reformed.
Do you have a church finder, or any sort of recommendation for a church in my neck of the woods?
Good bless 🙏🏽❤️🔥👑
Miracles are still to confirm that we are His messengers. I just ran into a kid that didn’t believe God was real. I explain to him about Lee Strobel‘s story, and before he left, I had a word of knowledge about foot pain. He said yes, then I prayed for him and God healed him and me and my buddy asked you believe now don’t you he said yes then I asked him do you want to meet the God that just healed you? He said yes and I was able to lead him to Christ gave him the book of John and some follow up stuff to get in contact with me. miracles still confirm we are his messengers. It’s not just telling them about Jesus it’s giving them Jesus.
@@SeerSeekingTruth yeah, great question I try to pray for it often. I don’t always see it happen, but I do see healing more often than not and I’m actually surprised now when someone doesn’t get healed. I see a few healings a week most of the time or sometimes it may be a few weeks. And no, I don’t always get a word of knowledge for them. Sometimes I just ask if they have any pain in their body and can pray I for them. I used to see it almost daily when I would pray for more people and really the only times that I don’t see it is when I’m not really praying a lot for people. sometimes I’ll have words sometimes I won’t. I was in Africa and my buddy ministered on stage before I did And he prayed for someone with a deaf ear and called them up to the stage and they got healed so when I went up next to preach ( my first time on a big stage, like that )
I just had a thought in my mind I’m going to pray for someone that’s blind since he just prayed for a deaf ear and I called them up and prayed and several people got healed that were blind and then I thought to ask my friend later Hey did you get a word of knowledge about the deaf ear and he said yes and I realized I didn’t get a word of knowledge. I was just doing it because he prayed for someone with a deaf ear and I wanted to pray for someone that was blind, I was just really learning but I realize later that God just honored that and I used my faith to pray for them and they got healed. It’s not like you’re exploiting people for healing. It’s that you love God and believe what He can do and that He wants to do it and know that when they get healed, it touches their heart and a lot of people came to the Lord because of it.It’s not really healing at Will because God gives the gifts as he wills but sometimes we don’t realize how willing He is, and he says to covet the greater gifts. But I also believe that it’s not just a gift, but there are signs of the believers. John 14:12 mark 16:17-18. And I always go in with love as my goal no matter what the results are because love never fails. And people are really appreciative of how you took the time just to pray for them and then I would just encourage them and sometimes share my testimony. Oh also after I pray for them I always ask if they feel any different and a lot of times it’s just a partial healing and I tell them that God is working and can I pray again they let me pray again and 98% of the time they get healed all the way after they let me pray again
@@SeerSeekingTruth no I don’t have any of that. Pretty healthy for the last 10 years. And great peace as well. Why was you asking? Did you feel like you was getting a word? I do have a friend with those symptoms.
@@SeerSeekingTruth 🤔 not that I can recall I can sometimes feel the persons pain before they get healed. But not often maybe 15% of the time but no, I don’t have anything like that
@@SeerSeekingTruthyea appreciate the advice , and saying it in love and yes, I live a very consecrated, life fasting and prayer hours at a time reading the word daily without missing a day. I also look up words In the Hebrew and the Greek constantly feeding myself on truth and revelation to make sure what I’m reading is right, and what the Lord is saying to me Walk with brothers that do the same and I just believe freely we receive and freely we give that Jesus died for every person and there’s not one person on the planet He don’t love or didn’t die for, but I also use discernment like Paul. He was going everywhere preaching the gospel until the Spirit forbid him to go. So I listen and try not to get distracted . And, like you said, it’s strange times, and even towards the end, the very elect will be deceived. So again I appreciate it. my number one ministry is ministering to the Lord and then to my family. I’m not ignorant of the enemies devices and strive to know God’s will. I know he’s willing that no one perish. So I can’t hold back and a lot of times. I wait on the Lord and get still before him. I’m constantly checking my heart. He told us to heal the sick , so I can’t hold back when someone is hurting or needs deliverance,but I do listen and don’t always do the same things the same ways I been walking with the Lord since 1997. And I’ve learned a lot through missing it and have learned through that as well, nothing is waisted , God shows us when we are off if we seek Him diligently, and love covers a multitude of sins. but just going for it and taking risk but love is my goal and love never fails . I have lead witches to the lord and several people to the Lord through healing, and miracles, about two years ago, there was a girl bound to meth, and she was a witch. I was telling her about the power of God and showed her a couple of healing videos of some people I prayed for on the streets that God healed the presence of God came in the room. She started weeping she repented and came to the Lord and within three months. She had the entire Bible read. She still living for the Lord today, seeking daily paying and reading and plugged in to a local church and ministry. .not boasting about myself just boasting about the Lord and what He has done and these people are still walking with the Lord today. Love, making disciples, the people that I was able to lead to The Lord y His grace , has led several people to the Lord as well even to this day. They are loving for Him as well and I love reaching out to those who are caught up in the new age and even believers that don’t believe in the gifts teaching them more accurately the ways of God, even recently, there was a Christian that didn’t believe in Jesus anymore, and was caught up into the New Age riki healing, and had the kundalini experience was able to cast the spirits out of her and bring her back to the Lord. She had actually quit her job for six months, and was writing a book on the new age, and was able to lead her back to Christ through the truth and words of knowledge and through some miracles. We need the full counsel of God so I do believe in the Old Testament and the New Testament. It’s one book and my model is Jesus and I try to imitate that as much as possible and just believe John 14:12 Hebrews 1:1-2 I really appreciate you reaching out. Blessings to you.
Also, my friend is having the symptoms has Parkinson’s not a demon. I stay within the confines of the word, but I love taking risk and loving people sometimes people are so cautious that They’re going to catch a demon when the Lord says if you ask for bread, you’re not gonna get a stone I don’t focus on the demonic as much as I do Jesus I just deal with the demonic when it comes to be so cautious and conscious of the devil it hinders so many people it’s being safe and comfortable that don’t get people off of their couch, or let’s them use their faith So I love going for it and taking the risk, but never outside of the word of God and prayer. You need both .prayer can’t do what the word can do and neither can the word do what prayer can do so we need both spirit and truth.sorry didn’t mean nothing offensive or divisive and just checking my heart make sure I’m saying everything in the right spirit I’m just really passionate about the Lord and about bringing people up to more of what God has for them. I got none of those symptoms or anything like that when I started seeing healings what it did for me was I wanted to read my Bible more. I wanted to fast more I wanted to make sure I had no sin in my life because the pure in heart shall see God. It caused
me to pursue God more. I know the healings are not my identity, whether I see it or not and God and Jesus is the gift and it’s his nature to heal and deliver. It’s caused a fire in my life seeing what God does for people and the way he loves us, causes me to love him even more. and it really humbled me, and still does and causes the fear of the lord to be in my life. I know if I hear God for someone the most important thing is the fear of God first, because if we hear God and we don’t do it it’s rebellion and rebellion is like witchcraft so this has caused me to fear of the lord.
38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
@@SeerSeekingTruthboth
These arguments are such an American evangelical thing. The rest of the world doesn't care. . We know miracles still happen . I have personally experienced it twise through the laying on of hands i have been healed. And especially when preaching in 3rd world places, I have seen scores of healings. Now does tjat mean that somebody carroes a superpower within them ,probably not. But we should live in expectation of seeing God move in power in peoples lives. Sharing Christ on the streets i have seen drunk people immediately sobered under the anointing. Of cpursr God still works on signs ,wwonders and miracles. After all isnt He the same yesterday ,today and forever. Good grief go look at Jackie Pullingers testimony working with drug addicts in Hong Kong. Many hundreds set free from addiction and painfree by praying in tongues. And people will say thats subjective. No thats objective fruit to a reality. Even secular authorities and sociologists studied her work and said what happened was real. They couldn't explain it because they had no place for understanding miracles. Now of course there are some idiot's who pretend to be something they are not . Well they are easy to spot ,they beg for money.
Whenever there is a debate like this, both sides go to extremes and get themselves more wronger. There can be clusters with miracles in between, and if miracles were like the air we breath we would not call them miracles.
But who’s more righter?
@@BobbyU808 and who is less wronger?
@@BlastHardcheese194 Haha!
This is your brain 🥚
This is your brain on continuationists vs cessationists🍳
Hey Michael, that's my pastor in the thumbnail you guys are using.
I would love to see you come and have a conversation with him about how he's wrong.
I think we'd be happy to have the convo.
@@michaelmiller5024maybe hit him up. I know you had Costi Hinn on the podcast not too long ago and he comes out to our church pretty regularly, so maybe Tom would consider it, not sure.
But I would definitely love to see you guys try and challenge him on this topic one on one.
@@michaelmiller5024 I do have a quick question if you don't mind; Tom clearly says in the opening clip you played that there are three times (epochs) in Scripture "where God *gave to men* the power to work miracles".
Why did you guys reframe his argument to be that there were only 3 periods of miracles?
There's clearly a distinction there and with all due respect, this reframing made a lot of the points you guys brought up seem like strawman arguments.
For example, Jeremiah 32:20-21 does not refute the cessationist's position or what Tom stated. The argument, as Tom stated, is about men being given the power to work miracles; not whether or not God did and still does perform miracles. Most cessationists, including Tom and myself, would affirm that God still does perform miracles.
So are you guys just not understanding the argument? Because I really don't want to believe that this is intentional obfuscation on your part.
I'd love to get a response back on this.
@@doulos9828 someone else mentioned this. We'll rectify it in a future episode. I think we had heard the cluster argument multiple times and failed to distinguish his argument from Gaffin's and MacArthur's.
Either way though it is refutable. The assumption again (with no explicit scripture) is that what they were given is power likened to that of a marvel super hero. We'll just have to go back and provide scripture showing that even these things were linked to God and not of their own accord. Or show that there were more than just three periods. Samson would be an example right of the top of my head. The fact is though the miracles were never singularly for affirming the scriptures or their authors. Calvin and most reformers said the scriptures were self-witnessing and needed no further proof.
@@michaelmiller5024 Thank you, I'd certainly like to hear a more defined argument from you guys.
I'm not sure what you mean by "power likened to that of a marvel superhero"...
I don't know of any cessationists who believe that these individuals who performed miracles were operating autonomously or outside of the direction and power of God; if that's what you think is being suggested.
I appreciate your example of Samson, but just one individual empowered to perform miraculous deeds in between the time of Moses/Aaron - Elijah/Elisha hardly gives credibility to the charismatic position of miracles performed by men being normative in Scripture.
And I don't see how miraculous event/s performed by one (or possibly two) individuals during the centuries in between those epochs would in any way invalidate the "cluster model" as presented in this documentary.
I'll be interested to see which other individuals you guys might reference beside Samson.
Obviously if you cite the prophets having the gift of prophecy and thereby suggest that what we see in the charismatic church is analogous to that, then we'll run into the issues of biblical qualifications for a prophet and why we would even believe that the cannon of Scripture is closed.
Also, last thing, I completely agree that Scripture is self-attesting. However, Scripture was not written concurrent with the events that Scripture attests to. So miracles being performed would still have validated the message during these epochs while they were occurring in real time.
Anyway, just my two cents man.
Sorry for the book lol.
Really appreciate you responding to my previous comment. If you feel like responding again awesome, but I know you guys are busy.
So either way, God bless you, man!
May we both grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. 🙏✌️
Faith cometh from the Word. Before Jesus, the word was written or spoken. David was blessed with Samuel, texts, and a father (שלג) who must have shared his knowledge. David asks God not to take away the glory. David has many experiences that prove his faith. Moses, of course, met with God--face time, in a sense. How blessed we are! We have both the written word and the person of Jesus. And the Holy Spirit! What more could we ask for. Jesus warned us not to listen to the doctrines and teachings of faithless men even though they held high positions. But we are, after all, in the world. We must read the word with a commitment to believe every word. Run from any church that suggests error. You've read all those books? Since I don't know which ones are of faith, I won't read any until faith is firmly established with evidence.
We don't obey a verse. We obey the sum total of the subject of a verse. You shouldn't divide the bones of Jesus or the meat of the word. You eat the whole thing. A woman who receives the good part ought to be teaching even the holy men. But a holy man ought to be teaching a righteous woman. And a righteous woman can teach the newly saved.
What about Hebrews 1:1-2, Revelation 22:18?
They're using some of these verses out of context lol. Hilarious to me, that where some people are able to work together even though they disagree, they're using strawman arguments to make it a primary issue. Calling it a "logical fallacy".
HEB 1 doesn't says he ONLY speaks to us by his son. Especially considering it wasn't until AFTER Jesus life, death resurrection that he gave the gifts. So this verse is not sound in proving that there are no more projects.
Rev 22 does apply to the whole text if scripture, but specifically and in context John is writing about not adding to that revelation he had. That being said.... prophecy and gifts do not automatically add to scripture or canon. Let me ask you ..where are the prophecies and writings of agabus, Phillips daughters, the prophets in Corinth, the prophecies to Timothy or the church of Thessalonia?
This idea that all prophecy adds to scripture is destroyed by script itself... because not all prophecy that has been given is even written.
My question for sensationalists: Why would you want GOD to stop doing miracles today when we desperately need HIM?
I am a continualist but just havent found a chaarismatic church here in Orlando fl that either pentecostal or ag or bethel type, all weird, women pastors, disorder, rock concert praise, big show, so resort to a reformed ( cessationists) because i see their services are more aligned with the word, with the exception of the gifts of holy spirit and praying for sick, etc...would love to find one, but i guess because of sin, all churches err in one or many things...
Same problem. I gave up on charismatic churches because they are a mess.
Now, your arguments are lacking because when were miracles available when sin was not prevalent??? Never.
Compared it to Islam. 🤣
Where are the show notes? The ones they mentioned that have all the scriptures they used. I can’t find them…
We've decided to compile all the show notes from the series into one study guide document. We will distribute the study guide in our newsletter, once the series is completed. You can subscribe to the newsletter here: theremnantradio.beehiiv.com/subscribe - Thanks!
@@TheRemnantRadiowhere can I get this now? The below website is a little confusing and I couldn’t find it.
Hey, Rowntree, please consider this-- 1 Timothy 5:14-- The actual word Paul used was *oikodespotéō.* The first part, oiko, means house. The second part means despot! Ruler!!!
Husbands are the head of the wife. Wives are the head of the house!
Paul wrote that women are to “Manage their households” (HCSB) Wives and mothers are “house despots!”
"SHE looks well to the management of her household....Her children rise up and call her blessed." Proverbs 31 24:49
I think both sides have taken an extreme position on the whole. There are few who walk a middle ground based on both accepting thst Paul does expect continuity, and yet is willing to tell people to judge each and every speech gift to see if it edifies. If it truly glorifies God. If the speaker's prophecies actually happen. Even Grudem, whom I respect and largely agree with, doesn't really address, "What is the procedure for one whose prophecies fail to edify?" Even understanding a NT prophet has more margin for error than an OT prophet, there still has to be consequence for outright errant speakers.
Dont be a fence sitter, take a position and stand on it. Cessationists are wrong, thats it, end of story.
Where is the man or woman who meets the biblical qualifications of a prophet today?
I'll wait.
@@doulos9828anyone who believes fully in Jesus (John 14:2, Mark 16:16-18)
How about Noah and his flood? How about God speaking through his prophets all throughout the Old Testament?
Why does Josh like to sit with his left arm forward and right arm back? Because of his desk layout? 🤔
yeahhhh. my mouse is on the couch next to my left leg LOL. So I lean that way so I can use the curser to drive the show. sorry
How about Jesus’ words 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻✝️✝️✝️
As a complementarian and a continuationist, I had the same thought toward cessationists... most are complimentarian and insist we read 1 Tim 2:11 without scripture gymnastics, but then when it comes to Cessationism it seems they win medals at the scriptural olympics! Seriously though, I love my cessationist brothers, but the case for it rest on such little exegetical support. I'm also rolling through the documentary and creating a video series. I appreciate your ministry and the work you guys do.
I would love for this to be addressed by my continuationist brothers! Here is the exegetical argument that convinced me cessationism is the biblical teaching:
I believe the Bible says some (prophecies, tongues, knowledge) Spiritual gifts have ceased (1 Corinthians 13:8-12). They ceased when the perfect came.
Those verses give multiple illustrations of a “partial to complete” theme. The “perfect” is the whole and complete canon of scripture (I will argue for this later), allowing us to see face to face like a perfectly polished mirror. Now that the canon has closed and we are no longer adding new books to the Bible as some sort of expanded edition of God’s eternally perfect word, the gifts of prophecies, tongues, and knowledge have fulfilled their purpose and are no longer in effect today.
I will give some reasoning for why I think “the perfect” is in reference to the completed canon of scripture rather than the return of the morally perfect Christ Jesus:
The canon of scripture closed when the last book of the Bible was written by John (Revelation 1:1-2). Man does not declare what the canon of scripture shall be; rather God speaks and creates His canon which He has preserved through the ages since it was first given. I’ve heard some say the canon wasn’t complete until the Protestant reformation; this is false. Because nobody prior to the Protestant Reformation was waiting for God to give His final words to be included in the Bible, His canon had already been canonized well before the Protestant Reformation.
Now in 1 Corinthians, chapters 12-14 are dealing heavily with spiritual gifts. At the time of Paul’s writing, the Corinthians were absolutely called to earnestly desire those gifts (12:31, 14:1, 14:5), but even more still to love each other with unity in the same Spirit (12:4,13:1-13). And even more than speaking in tongues too, Paul says it is better for the church not to be infantile in their thinking but to instead be mature men through sharing interpretable prophecies given specifically for the sake of building up the church (14:19-20, 22, 3-5).
So, prophecies build up the church. Likewise, God’s canonized Word is given to make the church wise for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, and all scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching/reproof/correction/training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17). In relation to scripture equipping the man of God for every good work and “completing” him, it is helpful to finally consider “the perfect” referenced in 1 Corinthians 13:10.
The Greek used in 1 Corinthians 13:10 for the perfect is τέλειος/teleios. This word does not exclusively mean “morally perfect,” although it certainly can include a sense of moral perfection. But this word is often used elsewhere in scripture to reference perfection in terms of being finished, or fully grown, or adult, or mature, or lacking nothing in completeness. In fact, this same word is used in 1 Corinthians 14:20 telling them to be τέλειος/teleios, translated as to be “men”. It simply isn’t true when you assert that the “perfect” has no basis for being in reference to the canon of scripture. Paul says to be men (stop speaking/thinking/reasoning like a child 1 Corinthians 13:11) through the means of pursuing prophecies, which are given to the church for building up the church. This too is what scripture is for, but scripture is preserved whereas prophecies will cease (1 Corinthians 13:10). The prophecies allowed them to see themselves reflected dimly in somewhat-polished metal, but when the canon was completed they could see themselves as in a perfectly polished mirror (i.e. face to face). This aligns with how scripture “completes” the man of God and equips us for absolutely every single good work.
Now, I would seriously love it if anyone would be so kind as to respond to my argument and where they think I’m wrong. I’ve never received well-reasoned responses to this argument. I think I have demonstrated a strong case for why that interpretation fits the context. And even if you don’t think it is strong, I hope you see how fellow Christian’s can reasonably think there is at least some basis for finding the cessationist position convincing. I want to follow God’s Word and conform my beliefs to what He says. So if I am wrong, please help me to see the flaws in my argumentation so that I may walk more faithfully going forward. Thanks!
3 points! The perfect is a direct reference to Jesus because that's how He is described in Hebrews
Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected (Telio) He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
HEB 7:28 which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
Secondly, 1 cor 13 talks about being face to face but ALSO knowing as we are known. That's personal. The written scripture doesn't know us...Jesus knows us! So on the day when we stand face to face with Jesus we will know him as he knows us.
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
***The canon is absolutely complete, but we still don't know all there is to know about Jesus until we stand with him in eternity.
Last, the other part of gifts ceasing even as you described is that we too would be made telios. Perfect, complete, mature. This will not happen until we are in heaven with Christ and made as such. But until that time, we don't know everything, we still have more to learn and grow in, we are not standing in the fullness and stature of Christ as eph 4:13 states.
Ephesians 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man(Telios), to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
One more point - Telios typically is a personal word referring to people being perfected, complete and mature, not objects (except a few times)
Col 1 Paul says that he is called to fulfill/complete the word of God. This Greek word is pleroo - an impersonal word regarding a task to be completed. If he would have said when that which is to be completed (pleroo) is come....I think you'd have a firm argument. But because it's Telios and speaks of personal terms like face to face and knowing as we known...the context weighs heavily in favor of Christ. Not only that, but Paul also starts our 1 cor 1:7 saying to continue in gifts charis) until Christs return. He doesn't say continue in gifts until the tasks of finishing God's word is done.
The 1 cor 13 argument is falling out of favor amongst scholarly cessationists for these reasons. I watched this documentary and I don't believe they even used this argument.
Hope this helps!
@@BEABEREAN10 I seriously appreciate your response and will need to spend time after work to study your counter arguments. As one initial thought though, you’re saying we won’t be perfect/complete/mature until we are in heaven with Christ and made as such. What then do you make of 2 Timothy 3:17 where it says that scripture (the Bible) is given to us (right here today) so that the men of God (us) may be “perfect” (complete), equipped for every good work?
I don't have an answer, but appreciate the spirit you two are engaging with each other in & want to continue to watch your discussion.
@@hardboard82 the word in 2 Tim 3:17 is not telios, as in moral completion and virtue (like Christ) - Paul uses a different word here - ἄρτιος artios; fresh, suitable , fitted i.e. (by implication) complete: - perfect. -- it's the only time it's ever used in the scripture and oauo ideas explains that its about an equipping, not moral completion which is what telios describes.
IF Paul had used the word Telios in 2 Tim 3:17, I'd have to cede the argument, but that's not what it says. And even just speaking from a natural standpoint...no man will ever be made morally perfect (Telios) even if they spend their entire life reading and studying the scriptures. They can be saved by faith in Christ and they can mature and grow, but they won't be Telios, in the fullness and stature of Christ (eph 4:13) until they stand face to face (1 cor 13) with he one is already Telios, that is Christ.
Great job guys!!!
I would call Acts “How Paul Became an Apostle, Because the Other Guys Did Not Like Gentiles.”
@@paulral Maybe Paul owes his prominence to supervising Luke in the writing of Acts. Peter or John could have had a sidekick do that. If James did, at least we would learn how he became a Christian.
@@paulral I think Paul was more infamous than famous among Jews, believers and otherwise. Note the whole blowup with the Jerusalem Council, and the Jews that caused him problems wherever he went. I am noticing in the 7 letters to the churches that John had some grief with the synagogue of Satan, too.
@@paulral The hard parts are the direct quotations. Even Jesus had bad Greek? Or was he talking down to us?
@@paulral I’m not up to date on all of that. My thinking is that John the revelator was a Jewish Christian Jew. The Jerusalem Council guys were Jews in good standing, worshipping at the temple and meeting in synagogues until late in the game when they were forced out of Judaism and Jerusalem. Having to hightail it to Ephesus late in life would be embittering, and if the Jew problem followed him there, that would be annoying. So I think the synagogue of Satan would be Jews who persecute Christians. They did not like Christians passing themselves off as a sect of Jews to get under the Roman exemption for Jews, and the Christians were no help in the revolts against the Roman Empire. Friction City.
@@paulral John had enemies on all fronts. Division in the church, anti-Christian Jews, and banishment by the empire. They could all be the bad guys of Revelationz.
As usual, Josh’s reasoning is sound. Between the clusters, prophets were prophesying, and prophesy is a gift. Maranatha
But Hebrews 1:1-2 does say that God spoke to us *in the past* by the prophets, has now spoken to us by His Son. Could that mean that prophesying has ceased because the ultimate Prophet has come and his Spirit ensured his message spread throughout the whole world?
It COULD mean that, if there weren’t Scriptures telling believers to desire prophecy.
@@SamTiptonI'm sorry we keep running into each other sam 😂 but to say that HEB 1 means that we no longer need/have prophets goes against the very teachings and examples of prophets and prophecy in the NT.
The argument states that because we have heard directly from Jesus, we no longer need prophets. Except even after Jesus life, death and resurrection, there were still many prophets and prophecy in the church.
It seems that the cessationists argument adds in ONLY into many verses... meaning cessationists add in that we ONLY need the message of Jesus today and not the prophets, but that's not what this verse says. Kinda the same thing in Ephesians 2 when the bible says Apostles and prophets laid the foundation....but then cessationist says this was the ONLY job of the apostles and prophets. Scripture doesn't say that. It was a job of the Apostles and prophets but not the only Job.
@@SamTipton
The book of Hebrews was written to the Hebrews that's why it's called Hebrews so why discuss or present it as if it applies to you Sam - careful your flirting with blasphemy
@@James1v1-pf6lothat's weird and wrong reasoning......the book of Hebrews is scripture and still applies to us.
There is an old principle that says in effect, "you can rise no higher than your teacher." This first time your teacher says one gospel is copied from another or that all are copied from Q, that will will be the classroom that drains whatever faith you might have had. We are to grow from faith to faith. Are you saved? ___(Insert confession here)___. Are you righteous? __(insert confession here)__. Are you holy? __(insert confession here)__. Now let's talk about goodness and glory--privately. I would rather go to a church where there are the least educated who believe that miracles are for every day than the Ivy-covered brick church and its pastor with a doctorate of divinity from Princeton (or even Liberty.)
We need a miracle to only concentrate on Jesus. I’m not a cessationists but it grieves me when we demonize a whole other portion of the church. Christianity has not disappeared. Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Billy Graham all changed the world and moved Christianity. Dr. Heiser was open to the gifts but if you have a healing ministry, go do it. I don’t see the love in these arguments. The greatest gift is love. 1 Corinthians 13.
I haven't seen the documentary, but do they lay this out as an argument? If they do, then it's a poorly structured argument. If not, then you are the one committing the fallacy.
I watched the documentary. This is absolutely one of their arguments for cessationism.
@@BEABEREAN10 they say "this is an argument"? Or are we using the word argument synonymously with something else general pattern of scripture.
Do they have to use the words “this is an argument” for it to be an argument? Most defenses aren’t made that way.
@@SamTipton If you watch the movie, there are a number of 'headlines" throughout expounding on the various reasons gifts have ceased. They never call them arguments.
@@SamTiptonthe man in the video is Tom Pennington. He is currently my pastor.
Ironically, I used to go to church with Michael Rowntree, the other guy in the thumbnail/video. The church was called Wellspring (named by Rick Joyner) and it was pastored by Jack Deere.
The things that occurred in that church I attended with MR and were categorized as signs and miracles were anything but. That was normal for me at the time though bc that was the way I was brought up to believe.
When I was genuinely saved in my 20s the Lord started convicting me of so much that was wrong in that movement. I started studying Scripture and realizing that so many of the things that they taught just did not line up with God's word at all.
Looking back now, I can honestly say that a lot of what occurred there was not just false teaching but openly demonic.
Being a cessationist allows one to steer clear of ministry that is, frankly, difficult from the perspective that it requires a deep faith walk. Perhaps some embrace this approach out of fear that God Will not move in ways he promises to move for the continuationist?
@@JBly4 I guess the topic can be very divisive. I see the points of these three here rooted in scripture which is the ultimate guide to use. Their points about cessationist’s stand on various points not being in line with scripture are compelling. I believe the gifts are still in operation. No scripture I see tells me otherwise.
@@JBly4 scripture trumps all else. Mankind is not perfect amd we must make allowance in each direction for the imperfect human. Thanks for your kindness:)