@@MyNnavarro Do you even know what that means? Biblically, vanity is when your pursuit for earthly things comes before God. I was just being playful with pastor Joel and that was totally clear. Why do you dress yourself trying to match clothes? Why do you shave? Why do you even choose a profile picture in the sun wearing sunglasses showing your best angle? What if someone said "vanity"? Brother, let this urge to comment idiocy behind.
@@MyNnavarro You see a comment and without even blinking comment "vanity" and now you say that I have a high horse attitude. Come on. I'm sorry that you felt that, but I just responded to an unfounded accusation.
The blind don’t receive their sight and the dead are not raised. I ask many why this is and they usually grasp at things and say “no one has faith today”. So what they are actually saying is Jesus the Author and finisher of our faith has failed right?
I am of the view that world history is following in thousand year blocks the fractal laid out in the seven days of creation. In this model the last days are the last two thousand years since Christ.
I don’t feel like the relationship between Premillenialism and Cessationism in particular was clearly explained. You mentioned Cessationism and defined it, but the connection was never made.
Also, you have to deal with jeremiah 31 in it's entirety, and about 7 others like it in the OT, as well as, you know, revelation., elements melting with fervent heat, etc.Oeverall, Jeffy, this matter and the different views potentially espoused deserve more than the dismissive assurance you exhibit. Greater students have examined this far longer and would appear far less certain, and that advisedly.
Continuitionism or Cessationism game Where in the Bible does God speak these words or thoughts of this argument? People have created this controversy. “If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.” 1 Timothy 6:3-5 Hegelian dialectic is ‘PROBLEM-REACTION-SOLUTION’ and how it works is like this: 1. Someone creates or exploits a problem in which attributes blame to others. 2. The people react by asking the for protecton and help (safety and security and understanding ) to help solve the problem. 3. Then, someone offers the solution that was planned by them or others long before the crisis occured. Continuitionism or Cessationism are nowhere in the Bible the argument is out there to confuse people and cause them to be on one side or another I will not play that game.
I don't see how this is more a of a problem for cessationism with Premill than with Postmillenialism. I sincerely thought this video had the wrong title when I first read it. 😂 If the last days are ongoing the Gifts must be also; otherwise Joel, Peter and the Holy Spirit seem to have a different idea of 'last days'. This is actually an argument Michael Brown has made during at least one debate and possibly elsewhere. To be fair to both sides, if you as postmill acknowledge 'last days' has different uses then why can it not mean the end of 2nd Temple era here and also refer to the eschaton elsewhere? I can't speak for other premill believers but I don't suppose the world will end in my generation(a common caricature that you mentioned here but as we don't know the day I'd say this makes the most sense in a loosely held premill view that takes Christ seriously on this point) and I do believe in there being a distinction between the last days of the Old Covenant, culminating with the destruction of the temple, and the last days of the world itself.
Neither am I, since it contradicts a host of Scriptures. Cessationists essentially deny the power of God and make God out to be a liar. We are still in the last days, thus all the promises of God about His Spirit being poured out on all flesh in these days is still applicable to us at this time. I venture to say many (if not most) cessationists are Premillenialists, so they are holding to two incompatible viewpoints. Please see my article disproving cessationism and elaborating further at this link: wordistrue.blogspot.com/2022/07/have-gifts-ceased.html
In chapter 24 if they aren't talking about the end of the world then why does he say that many false Christ's will appear, that the sun and the moon will not give their light and then Jesus comes on a cloud and sends his angels to collect his people? Are you guys trying to say that this has already happened? He says it will be like the days of Noah. None of that lines up with what he is saying.
The Jewish people of that day would have understood what “the sun and moon will not give their light” meant. It is prophetic language (just like Joseph’s dream about the sun, moon, and stars) representing leaders and people of authority.
@@jedi_417 what about the part where Jesus coming on the clouds and sending angels to collect his people? Matthew 24 30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (KJV 1611)
@@jamie1682 there are many instances of God “coming in glory/power/judgment.” See Isaiah 66:15-16, Psalm 18:6-16, Psalm 50:3-6. In 70 A.D., Christ came in judgment on rebellious Israel, but he collected his people (Christians) at Mt. Pella before the destruction of Jerusalem and not one believer died during the tribulation (the time of Jacob’s trouble). In Matthew 24, Jesus uses the Greek word “oikoumené” which our English translations call “world.” Oikoumené according to Strong’s concordance is “the land, specifically the Roman world.” Jesus never predicted the end of the world ( Greek-kosmos). In Matthew 24:34, Jesus says that “this generation will certainly not pass away until these things have happened.” Misunderstanding this verse has literally led people to see Jesus as a liar and false prophet because that generation died 2000 years ago and yet we haven’t seen Jesus come snatch people out of their clothes and burn the world down. I used to be a futurist, but I have seen too much evidence that Jesus came exactly as he said he would and judge Israel. Do I believe that we will see Jesus in person in our future? Yes. But the great tribulation always belonged to Israel, not the globe.
@@jedi_417 that does not make any sense. Jesus tells them if they tell you here is Christ or there is Christ, do not believe them because you will see me come in the clouds. Just before He says that, He says this Matthew 24:21 [21]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Worse than ever was and ever will be. And as Jesus continues speaking into chapter 25 the parables are all about the final judgement.
@@jamie1682 so Jesus was lying when He said that generation wouldn’t pass before those things would happen? I would suggest reading The Wars of the Jews by the first century historian Josephus. There are many resources that go in great detail about the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem. There were several false messiahs that led people to their death. There were incredible earthquakes and famine. Think about the “wars and rumors of wars.” If that is for us today, it’s a terrible clue that the end is near because there has been non-stop war in the world for generations. But Jesus said these words during the Pax-Romana, where the Roman Empire had conquered a vast amount of the earth and was enjoying a time of peace. Also, Daniel is told to seal up the vision of the end because it is a long way off. Then John is told in Revelation NOT to seal up the prophecy because it will soon take place. How can Daniel be told it’s far off, yet Revelation was written 600 years later and John writes that these things will soon take place, and it’s been nearly 2,000 years since Revelation was written? So God is saying 600 years is a long time in the future, yet He tells John that the events of the tribulation is coming soon, yet we’ve been waiting 2,000 years? It makes no sense. I understand where you’re coming from. I was there too. But this idea of a great tribulation in our future only became mainstream in the 1800’s because John Nelson Darby came up with it and put it in his study Bible he published. Every time we cry Jesus is coming back to destroy the world, we look like a bunch of Chicken Littles yelling that the sky is falling and it pushes unbelievers away, because Jesus said it would happen for “This generation” in the first century and it absolutely did.
To me it is very simple these gifts will come back in the last days not talking about the Rapture of the church were talking with the last days when the judgments are being given and God is coming back Jesus Christ is coming back to Earth these gifts will come again. These gifts will return. I don't understand your argument I don't think you have thought these things through what is your view on the Rapture of the church?
Was the spirit poured out on the disciples at pentecost? If yes then what was prophesied by Joel was what the people were seeing and hearing in Acts 2. We also know this because Peter literally said that it was. As to rapture doctrine, I cant speak for Jeff, but most partial preterists believe that we will be caught up with Christ at his second coming and return with him to earth in victory. I personally reject all 5 of the modern rapture doctrines as in my opinion they have some pretty reprehensible implications when it comes to the sufficiency of the gospel. The originators and early proponents of the rapture position held that it was necessary for the church and the Holy Spirit to be removed from the earth so that God could finish out the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks, that justification would again be by obedience to the law, and that animal sacrifices would be made for blood atonement. This is at best an extremely dangerous error and at worst blasphemous denial of the gospel.
I am cessationist, and premillennialist, however I am not hyper-dispensational. I have challenged myself as to the whether the Rapture, millennium and the Antichrist are Biblical, and they are. I do believe there will be a prophetic age and a great revival centered around Israel at some point preceding the Secomd coming "you will not see me again until you say blessed his he who comes in the name of the Lord" Matthew 25, also the 144,000 of Revelation, and Romans 11. However, there is also clear Biblical evidence that the Antichrist will emerge from Israel. "Profane wicked Prince of Israel", "if another comes in his own name him you shall recieve", and many others. The present hyper-dispensational, and Zionist positions that dominate premillennialism are incorrect, however, this does not negate the Biblical evidence for pre-mil
This is sooo true !!
Pastor Jeff!
Do you believe the gifts continue to this day according to 2Cor12?
Thank you for clipping this part of the interview! God bless you, brother!
I hope that, as Pastor Joel gets older and wiser, his beard game improves to where Jeff's is.
@@MyNnavarro Do you even know what that means? Biblically, vanity is when your pursuit for earthly things comes before God. I was just being playful with pastor Joel and that was totally clear.
Why do you dress yourself trying to match clothes? Why do you shave? Why do you even choose a profile picture in the sun wearing sunglasses showing your best angle? What if someone said "vanity"?
Brother, let this urge to comment idiocy behind.
@@MyNnavarro You see a comment and without even blinking comment "vanity" and now you say that I have a high horse attitude. Come on. I'm sorry that you felt that, but I just responded to an unfounded accusation.
The blind don’t receive their sight and the dead are not raised. I ask many why this is and they usually grasp at things and say “no one has faith today”. So what they are actually saying is Jesus the Author and finisher of our faith has failed right?
So, they DO go together!! You should put a question mark after your title !!!
Who are these two guys?
I am of the view that world history is following in thousand year blocks the fractal laid out in the seven days of creation. In this model the last days are the last two thousand years since Christ.
Yes we find patterns repeated in creation
I don’t feel like the relationship between Premillenialism and Cessationism in particular was clearly explained. You mentioned Cessationism and defined it, but the connection was never made.
I'm watching from Manila Philippines
I agree. That’s why I’m neither.
Past and future Judgements,,,,,, His Promise doesn't perish,,,,,,The World ages do,,,,,Why would one conflate that?
I’ve never encountered a cessationist who was also a preterist. I’m intrigued. I’m not a cessationist, but I am a partial preterist.
It’s the best alignment of views
Also, you have to deal with jeremiah 31 in it's entirety, and about 7 others like it in the OT, as well as, you know, revelation., elements melting with fervent heat, etc.Oeverall, Jeffy, this matter and the different views potentially espoused deserve more than the dismissive assurance you exhibit. Greater students have examined this far longer and would appear far less certain, and that advisedly.
Continuitionism or Cessationism game
Where in the Bible does God speak these words or thoughts of this argument? People have created this controversy. “If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.”
1 Timothy 6:3-5
Hegelian dialectic is ‘PROBLEM-REACTION-SOLUTION’ and how it works is like this:
1. Someone creates or exploits a problem in which attributes blame to others.
2. The people react by asking the for protecton and help (safety and security and understanding ) to help solve the problem.
3. Then, someone offers the solution that was planned by them or others long before the crisis occured.
Continuitionism or Cessationism are nowhere in the Bible the argument is out there to confuse people and cause them to be on one side or another I will not play that game.
I don't see how this is more a of a problem for cessationism with Premill than with Postmillenialism. I sincerely thought this video had the wrong title when I first read it. 😂
If the last days are ongoing the Gifts must be also; otherwise Joel, Peter and the Holy Spirit seem to have a different idea of 'last days'. This is actually an argument Michael Brown has made during at least one debate and possibly elsewhere. To be fair to both sides, if you as postmill acknowledge 'last days' has different uses then why can it not mean the end of 2nd Temple era here and also refer to the eschaton elsewhere?
I can't speak for other premill believers but I don't suppose the world will end in my generation(a common caricature that you mentioned here but as we don't know the day I'd say this makes the most sense in a loosely held premill view that takes Christ seriously on this point) and I do believe in there being a distinction between the last days of the Old Covenant, culminating with the destruction of the temple, and the last days of the world itself.
That’s why I’m a continuationist 😁
I agree with you that’s one of the primary reasons I’m not a cessationist
Fair enough.
Lol.
Neither am I, since it contradicts a host of Scriptures. Cessationists essentially deny the power of God and make God out to be a liar. We are still in the last days, thus all the promises of God about His Spirit being poured out on all flesh in these days is still applicable to us at this time. I venture to say many (if not most) cessationists are Premillenialists, so they are holding to two incompatible viewpoints. Please see my article disproving cessationism and elaborating further at this link:
wordistrue.blogspot.com/2022/07/have-gifts-ceased.html
Same for me
SAMEEEE BABY😂
And don't stay and fight for old Jerusalem.
Also the 2 witnesses
Take on Zionism. Its another gospel.
In chapter 24 if they aren't talking about the end of the world then why does he say that many false Christ's will appear, that the sun and the moon will not give their light and then Jesus comes on a cloud and sends his angels to collect his people? Are you guys trying to say that this has already happened? He says it will be like the days of Noah. None of that lines up with what he is saying.
The Jewish people of that day would have understood what “the sun and moon will not give their light” meant. It is prophetic language (just like Joseph’s dream about the sun, moon, and stars) representing leaders and people of authority.
@@jedi_417 what about the part where Jesus coming on the clouds and sending angels to collect his people?
Matthew 24
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV 1611)
@@jamie1682 there are many instances of God “coming in glory/power/judgment.” See Isaiah 66:15-16, Psalm 18:6-16, Psalm 50:3-6. In 70 A.D., Christ came in judgment on rebellious Israel, but he collected his people (Christians) at Mt. Pella before the destruction of Jerusalem and not one believer died during the tribulation (the time of Jacob’s trouble). In Matthew 24, Jesus uses the Greek word “oikoumené” which our English translations call “world.” Oikoumené according to Strong’s concordance is “the land, specifically the Roman world.”
Jesus never predicted the end of the world ( Greek-kosmos). In Matthew 24:34, Jesus says that “this generation will certainly not pass away until these things have happened.” Misunderstanding this verse has literally led people to see Jesus as a liar and false prophet because that generation died 2000 years ago and yet we haven’t seen Jesus come snatch people out of their clothes and burn the world down. I used to be a futurist, but I have seen too much evidence that Jesus came exactly as he said he would and judge Israel. Do I believe that we will see Jesus in person in our future? Yes. But the great tribulation always belonged to Israel, not the globe.
@@jedi_417 that does not make any sense. Jesus tells them if they tell you here is Christ or there is Christ, do not believe them because you will see me come in the clouds. Just before He says that, He says this Matthew 24:21
[21]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Worse than ever was and ever will be. And as Jesus continues speaking into chapter 25 the parables are all about the final judgement.
@@jamie1682 so Jesus was lying when He said that generation wouldn’t pass before those things would happen?
I would suggest reading The Wars of the Jews by the first century historian Josephus. There are many resources that go in great detail about the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem. There were several false messiahs that led people to their death. There were incredible earthquakes and famine. Think about the “wars and rumors of wars.” If that is for us today, it’s a terrible clue that the end is near because there has been non-stop war in the world for generations. But Jesus said these words during the Pax-Romana, where the Roman Empire had conquered a vast amount of the earth and was enjoying a time of peace.
Also, Daniel is told to seal up the vision of the end because it is a long way off. Then John is told in Revelation NOT to seal up the prophecy because it will soon take place. How can Daniel be told it’s far off, yet Revelation was written 600 years later and John writes that these things will soon take place, and it’s been nearly 2,000 years since Revelation was written? So God is saying 600 years is a long time in the future, yet He tells John that the events of the tribulation is coming soon, yet we’ve been waiting 2,000 years? It makes no sense. I understand where you’re coming from. I was there too. But this idea of a great tribulation in our future only became mainstream in the 1800’s because John Nelson Darby came up with it and put it in his study Bible he published. Every time we cry Jesus is coming back to destroy the world, we look like a bunch of Chicken Littles yelling that the sky is falling and it pushes unbelievers away, because Jesus said it would happen for “This generation” in the first century and it absolutely did.
To me it is very simple these gifts will come back in the last days not talking about the Rapture of the church were talking with the last days when the judgments are being given and God is coming back Jesus Christ is coming back to Earth these gifts will come again. These gifts will return. I don't understand your argument I don't think you have thought these things through what is your view on the Rapture of the church?
Was the spirit poured out on the disciples at pentecost? If yes then what was prophesied by Joel was what the people were seeing and hearing in Acts 2. We also know this because Peter literally said that it was.
As to rapture doctrine, I cant speak for Jeff, but most partial preterists believe that we will be caught up with Christ at his second coming and return with him to earth in victory. I personally reject all 5 of the modern rapture doctrines as in my opinion they have some pretty reprehensible implications when it comes to the sufficiency of the gospel. The originators and early proponents of the rapture position held that it was necessary for the church and the Holy Spirit to be removed from the earth so that God could finish out the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks, that justification would again be by obedience to the law, and that animal sacrifices would be made for blood atonement. This is at best an extremely dangerous error and at worst blasphemous denial of the gospel.
I am cessationist, and premillennialist, however I am not hyper-dispensational. I have challenged myself as to the whether the Rapture, millennium and the Antichrist are Biblical, and they are. I do believe there will be a prophetic age and a great revival centered around Israel at some point preceding the Secomd coming "you will not see me again until you say blessed his he who comes in the name of the Lord" Matthew 25, also the 144,000 of Revelation, and Romans 11. However, there is also clear Biblical evidence that the Antichrist will emerge from Israel. "Profane wicked Prince of Israel", "if another comes in his own name him you shall recieve", and many others. The present hyper-dispensational, and Zionist positions that dominate premillennialism are incorrect, however, this does not negate the Biblical evidence for pre-mil
@@nathanschrock5632
Where did Jesus predict another "second coming" to earth in victory ?
I pray in tongues every day. Its a big help.
Anecdotal
Whatever floats your boat.
I prefer clear doctrine than babbling gibberish
how does praying in tongues benefit you?
You don't yet understand all there is to this.
@@toolegittoquit_001
What did Jesus teach about those who buried their God-given talents? Those do include the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
@@edeancozzens3833 u didn't answer the question, how has speaking in tongues benefited your life specifically